Thomas Massie Says National E-Verify Would Be Bad for American Workers. He's Right.
Certain employment measures in the House GOP’s border bill that are meant to verify citizenship status would harm American workers and employers.

House Republicans are rallying around the Secure the Border Act of 2023, a sprawling immigration enforcement bill that will be brought up for a vote later this week. It would resume border wall construction and seek to codify the Trump-era "Remain in Mexico" policy, which required migrants to await their U.S. immigration court dates in Mexico.
But the bill wouldn't just target undocumented immigrants, as Rep. Thomas Massie (R–Ky.) has pointed out. He tweeted that a section requiring employers to use E-Verify systems to verify workers' citizenship status would be like giving the government "the ultimate on/off switch" for employment.
"I will NOT vote to require EVERY American to get [President Joe] Biden's permission if they want to work," Massie continued. "Giving the federal government more power over YOU is a mistake."
Massie is right to point out the potential for government abuse. Mandatory national E-Verify would mean more government meddling in the affairs of private businesses—and more state control in general. Though it's "being sold to you as a security measure," former Rep. Justin Amash (L–Mich.) argued, "E-Verify is laying the foundation for national biometric databases, [central bank digital currencies], and a social credit system, giving the state almost absolute power over your life."
It isn't hard to imagine that a government empowered to punish workers and employers on the grounds of citizenship status could impose similar punishments on other grounds. Just look at the Biden administration's COVID-19 vaccine mandate, which required workplaces with over 100 employees to make workers get vaccinated or undergo weekly testing. Republicans rightly criticized this government overreach, but they largely fail to see how E-Verify measures could be weaponized against more than just undocumented immigrants.
National E-verify bill contains vague references to two pilot programs of non-photographic technology you must use to prove your identity to DHS in order to get a job.
What is it? Fingerprints? DNA? Retina? Why not just say it in the bill? Is E-Verify actually Patriot Act 2.0? pic.twitter.com/0vKxxkWiM3
— Thomas Massie (@RepThomasMassie) May 9, 2023
Imposing the system at the national level makes little practical sense since E-Verify doesn't function nearly as effectively as its proponents claim. The Cato Institute's Alex Nowrasteh has noted that the system "is ineffective at detecting illegal immigrant workers." What's more, the government's existing employment verification document, the I-9 form, already "costs employers an estimated 13.48 million man-hours each year." Nor does E-Verify seem to lead to better outcomes for American workers. Citing Nowrasteh's research, Reason Senior Editor Brian Doherty wrote in 2020:
How often does E-Verify mistakenly mark people as legally unable to work when they should have been approved? About 0.15 percent of the time, which sounds impressive, but if it were applied to every American worker via federal mandate it would leave more than 187,000 people a year barred from work for no reason at all.
Supporters of national E-Verify argue that the system can be fixed. But making E-Verify work flawlessly and ensuring total compliance from employers would require far more government funding, far more punitive enforcement, and potentially invasive biometric proof of identity—all of which would come back to bite American citizens.
Still, the idea has sticking power on the right. Former United Nations ambassador and current GOP presidential candidate Nikki Haley supports mandatory E-Verify. So do Florida Republicans, who last week passed a bill requiring private businesses with 25 or more employees to use E-Verify.
If passed by the House, the Secure the Border Act would likely die in the Democratic-held Senate (and Biden has said he would veto it anyway). But the fact remains that the E-Verify proposal would be problematic in ways similar to domestic surveillance measures and vaccine mandates, and it has broad GOP support regardless. Massie is right that Congress shouldn't give the federal government yet another opportunity to constrain civil liberties and privacy rights.
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Though it's "being sold to you as a security measure," former Rep. Justin Amash (L–Mich.) argued, "E-Verify is laying the foundation for national biometric databases, [central bank digital currencies], and a social credit system, giving the state almost absolute power over your life."
Now now, hyperbolic paranoid claims are only valid when they are invoked against either (1) the Deep State (tm) or (2) Democrats. They are not valid against Republicans, because as we all know, Republicans only have the best of intentions and would never use E-Verify or anything like it to be twisted into some dystopian authoritarian social control measure. They would NEVER use it to, say, demand proof that kids (or adults!) weren't accessing the 'wrong' social media sites. That's just crazy talk! And if some authoritarian Democrat WERE to have the idea to use E-Verify as the basis of some authoritarian scheme, why, that is just ample reason to enact E-Verify and then continue voting for Republicans forever in order to keep those dastardly Democrats out of power to prevent them from enacting their dastardly schemes.
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““E-Verify is laying the foundation for national biometric databases, [central bank digital currencies], and a social credit system, giving the state almost absolute power over your life.”
They’ve been laying that foundation for years. Where has this man been?
If E-Verify keeps migrants in their own countries, safe from the growing power of our absolutist government, it will have done those migrants a favor. Let them stay in the free world.
We need a strong Christian Nationalist Nanny State to protect American workers from economic competition from Immigrants.
Only Donald Trump - who is Christ Reborn - can save us from Libertarian freedom.
But in all seriousness, National E-Verify would be a bad idea, for a large list of reasons, a big one is that it really shouldn't be up to the government to decide who can and can't have a job.
It shouldn't be up to the government to decide which CITIZENS and LEGAL RESIDENTS can have a job. It absolutely IS the responsibility of government to enforce laws against the employment of illegal invaders.
Illegal invaders should be given their "magic papers" that turn bad into good! Like a philosopher's stone turns lead or dog turds into gold, magic "Papers Please" could turn the BAD "illegal sub-humanoids" into legal GOOD people!
I wish that I didn't have to think of EVERYTHING around here, butt ye can thank me later, alligator!
Like those invading fetuses, right?
Is there an invasion if the press refuses to cover it?
What is the sound of the Pope shitting alone in the forest?
I don't know, but his shit don't stink.
Liquid splatter.
Devine?
No contract shall be enforced between two persons unless everyone has their papiers in order.
If you don't have the agreement in writing, it's only as strong as the guns associated with it.
The writing don't matter if the guys at the military checkpoint decide someone doesn't have their papiers in order.
Freedom.
Somehow this wasn't a problem prior to 1965 (when Kennedy's immigration law kicked in). I'll give you three guesses why.
Democrats, Democrats, Democrats.
Oh no! The ghost of Fat Ted just appeared! He's soaking wet and muttering about some woman! Make him go away!
Hey, you actually got it right. Democrats have been normalizing the lowest standard for employees for a long time.
In fifteen years Sarc's going to be that guy shaking his head in the gulag, and muttering "If only Comrade Stalin knew".
*5 years
If the shoe fits…
What were your views on Australian covid camps again... want the link?
The government shouldn't be forcing private employers to, essentially, enforce immigration laws. And as a citizen I shouldn't have to track down documents to be able to work.
It has been up to the government to decide who can and can't have a job for more than a century.
Not only can illegals not have a job, under progressive legislation, many Americans are prohibited or discouraged to have a job.
Now, you are arguing disingenuously, that on top of that existing and continuing injustice, the government should arbitrarily enforce those laws for political purposes, rather than at least aiming for equality under the law.
"It has been up to the government to decide who can and can’t have a job for more than a century."
Is that so? Huh. Then that's bullshit.
Since you probably haven't worked a day in your life, this may come as a surprise to you, but there are hundreds of laws employers and employees must comply in order to for the employee to be able to legally work for the employer.
Serious question (I know, shocking right), but do you see a role for the government in regards to the border and immigration?
It is absolutely up to the government to decide citizenship and naturalization status. It is in the Constitution as one of the powers of the Congress.
Who else would decide?
The employer, who has been shown to care less about such things?
Simply enforce the existing laws requiring employers to verify citizenship or work permits. Make the use of E-Verify for that purpose optional. The problem is lack of enforcement action against employers who hire illegals, not the lack of laws against it.
And what accountability do you propose for when e-verify lies?
I would propose that reliance on E-Verify should be a defense against charges of hiring illegals.
And what accountability do you propose when e-verify wrongly denies someone a job?
https://work.chron.com/happens-background-checker-unable-verify-dates-employment-1087.html
Let me ask another question. What accountability do you propose if an illegal immigrant falsified their SS number effecting the citizen woth said SS number? For example taxes. But also loans, fines, civil traffic issues, etc.
Whoops. Here.
https://www.e-verify.gov/employees/tentative-nonconfirmation-overview/how-to-process-a-tentative-nonconfirmation-mismatch
That happened to me. An illegal Mexican working at an area landscaping company was using my Social Security number, which resulted in my being denied unemployment benefits. It was surprisingly easy to straighten it out—just involved filling out a form and emailing it. The illegal worker, should, of course, have been deported after serving their prison sentence, but I don't know what happened.
I have a coworker who has had to fight the IRS for 3 years straight when trying to efile.
This was the Social Security Administration, not the IRS.
Maybe you should have gotten a job, and let the illegal keep contributing to your end SS payout.
Maybe you should buy a brain.
So your solution is tax fraud? No wonder you were homeless.
Doesn't work that way, the SS works hard to keep the money segregated, so that it can be credited to the illegal alien if they're ever amnestied.
Look at the welfare mooch over here.
So you don't understand UI either it seems. What do you actually understand?
That if his mom doesn't leave Ho Hos and a six pack of cold beer at the top of the basement stairs by three in the afternoon, she gets another black eye.
Perhaps you could have replaced the individual on the landscaping crew. Two birds with one stone. End illegal usage and reduce taxpayer burden of paying unemployment benefits.
I had better opportunities, but thank you for your concern.
Override with the new IRS Form I-9a. Requires an actual Real ID driver's license or passport as one of the forms of ID.
We can use it at the polls, too.
https://www.e-verify.gov/employees/tentative-nonconfirmation-mismatch-overview
Thanks. Posted as well. Had clicked wrong link originally.
What accountability do you propose when the IRS falsely bankrupts people? When the federal government falsely accuses and convicts someone?
Governments make mistakes. That's not a reason to have no laws at all, it just means that every law we have needs to balance costs and benefits.
What's the accountability when the NICS wrongly denies someone from legally purchasing a firearm? What's the accountability when the no-fly list wrongly denies someone's travel? What's the accountability when errors on voter rolls prevent someone from voting?
NICS: they have a process for correcting bad info, just like E-Verify does.
No fly list: you're fucked. No SOP for appeals.
errors on voter rolls: you can cast a provisional ballot and supply the corrected information before the certification deadline.
I would propose that reliance on NW-Verify (Non-Witch-Verify) should be a defense against charges of hiring witches.
(Non-witch applicants for legally permissible work with WITCH to support themselves can defend themselves by PROVING for the casual observer, that they SINK AND DROWN in water, when bound and trussed up, and thrown into said waters! I, for one, welcome our new Government Almighty Overlards who will PROTECT us from goods and services provided to us innocent consumers, when, unbeknownst to us, the providers are WITCHES!!! Can ye imagine ANY horror WORSE than the following: Ye paid for a hamburger, or to have yer ass scratched, or for some yard-mowing services, and ye walked away satisfied... And then later ye realized, ye had been served by an illegal WITCH?!?!)
What happens when a passport system is wrong?
There are processes in place to verify birth or citizenship. I know a person that had to go through it. She did willingly as she needed to do so for ID of any form, health insurance, etc. There are processes already in place for these things. She was born at home to hippie parents. They never registered her into any agency. She simply had to utilize her parents information to establish proof of citizenship.
Here's an article that I think you will enjoy.
https://cis.org/Report/Hiring-Illegals-Crime
It points out that illegal immigration could be reduced if the government were to more heavily enforce the *criminal* penalties associated with hiring illegal labor, not just civil penalties. So, actually sending employers to jail.
The article then points out some of the times that criminal penalties were applied. And if you read through them, almost all of them were against small businesses. Mom & pop stores, construction companies, small retail establishments, etc. I didn't see any large agribusiness names on the list.
Don't take my word for it, that article is from a pro-enforcement site.
So that is what is going to happen if the government goes with an "enforce harder" approach. The extra enforcement will fall disproportionately more heavily on small businesses. Big businesses don't have much to worry, not only can they afford the expensive lawyers, but they also outsource much of their staffing to outside firms anyway so they aren't even on the hook if one of their employees turns out to be an "illegal Mexican", the staffing firm is.
So by all means, if that is what you want, then carry on.
Any business that hires people with papiers that wouldn't satisfy a military checkpoint deserve to be shut down and the proprietors put in prison.
Illegal is illegal.
Can you two just fuck already?
Jeffy's not interested in sex with adults.
If you knowingly employ an illegal alien, you should be held criminally accountable, no matter your size of business. That's the same as with tax evasion, fraud, and other federal laws.
Most immigration law is bullshit.
But if you all go with an "enforce harder" approach, I predict that what will happen is that we will see stories in the right wing press of poor small businesses being victimized by the Feds in a politically motivated persecution of patriotic firms trying to serve their communities. But only when a Democrat is president.
I have no doubt that Democrats will abuse immigration law, like they abuse any kind of law, to harass and persecute their political enemies. That is an issue to be addressed separately. It's not a justification for living in a lawless society.
Amash needs a new tin foil hat—his old one is leaky. Maybe it's not grounded right.
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I like Massie, but this is a dumbass point.
There's already a ton of identifiers and databases they use to track citizens.
EVerify may not be the best solution, but not for the reasons Massie is going with.
I don't get this idea of not-making-laws-because-they-could-be-abused mentality.
For instance, I think most people can agree we need laws to prevent folks from driving 80mph in 20mph school zones, right? But traffic stops can be abused... they pad local budgets, offer pretext for profiling, and prone to escalation between law enforcement and civilians, etc..
But you shouldn't get rid of the laws; rather, you build in guide rails. You can prevent the dept./city/county from profiting, you can force cops to document and record the stop, you can capture and audit the radar gun data, etc.
Same goes here. None of the abuses mentioned could not be guarded against and a manual appeals process could be put into place to protect against mistakes.
If you don't want e-verify because you are for open borders, fine. Make that argument (IMHO an inane Libertarian position).
Personally, my biggest issue is that it is part of a border package and not part of a tax reform package. Hiring illegals usually leads to paying people under the table, cooking the books (and by extension a form of money laundering), tax evasion (i.e. not paying FICA), etc. An employment overhaul bill would also be a better place for this.
I don’t get this idea of not-making-laws-because-they-could-be-abused mentality.
What happens if someone breaks the law and get the attention of the cops? Most peaceful scenario they get a summons.
What happens if they don't show? Well, the cops are going to come get them.
What happens if they don't want to go with the cops? Cops are going to use whatever force they deem necessary, and ultimately kill them if they don't stop fighting back.
That means that every law, no matter how innocuous or well intentioned, is a potential death sentence.
Think about that whenever you say "There aught to be a law."
Anarchy is the only way. No down sides there.
Lol.
Simple solution: take your punishment like a man.
At every step of your inane hypothetical people are refusing to take responsibility for their own actions, and you blame the law?
Absolutely. Because if the police show up at your door, it means you are automatically guilty and you should just accept it and admit your guilt. Why, just look at Trump.
If you walked through capitik doors you deserve to be shot for trespassing right?
Couple of the biggest issue with your comment...
The 1st being that this was specifically gears toward employment law where there are a ton of peaceful scenarios. Fines, pulling license's, closing a business, leans of property, mandating additional red tape and audits, and the list goes on and on. None of that requires cops.
The 2nd issue is everything after "What happens if they don’t show? ". Those things are all violations in of of themselves. If you don't show for a summons, it is Failure to Appear. Don't want to go with the cops? Resisting Arrest.
As a rule, people don't get shot by the cops for things like shop lifting, speeding, or buying loosies. They get shot due to their actions after the cops have engaged.
Does that mean the cops don't sometimes escalate or that their actions are always just? Absolutely not. But it also doesn't mean the illegal activity that started it all is bad either.
“If you don’t want e-verify because you are for open borders, fine. Make that argument (IMHO an inane Libertarian position).”
I don’t want e-verify because two consenting adults shouldn’t need anyone else's permission to exchange money, labor, or goods.
The open borders follows from that, not the other way around.
You're looking at it wrong.
If someone has a consenting relationship with their landlord, employer, grocery store and whatever else, but wouldn't be able to produce proper paperwork at a military checkpoint, then they are trespassers who should be shot on sight.
Only government permission matters.
Says no one but the wild ass hyperbole crowd.
Still retarded the third time you made the comment.
That is the status quo, Sarcasmic. It's the system YOU support, Sarcasmic. It's just that on top of it, you want to flood it with illegal migrants.
I don’t want e-verify because two consenting adults shouldn’t need anyone else’s permission to exchange money, labor, or goods.
That's crazy talk. You must be a leftist.
I'm going to guess sovereign citizen.
Try "libertarian"
Libertarians accept borders, especially in a welfare state retard.
And if someone wants to hire a convicted pedophile to work at a daycare, it’s no one’s business but the two parties on the transaction, right?
How else is Jeffy going to get a job?
Seriously?
Do you think a daycare would willfully torch their own reputation by hiring people without doing a background check? And that they need a government agency to tell them not to do that?
I think daycares are capable of not hiring pedophiles, banks are capable of not hiring embezzlers, and fire departments are capable of not hiring arsonists, without government agencies telling them not to.
Using your sophistry and sophomoric corm of arguments above... why should business be allowed to determine employment for those the government determines are pedophiles or embezzlers.
Lol.
I'll happily join you in that AFTER we have abolished all the other areas where the government requires "permission to exchange money, labor, or goods", and takes up to half of the value of those "monies, labor, and/or goods".
However, right now, if you make that argument, you are a disingenuous prick who wants to support illegal immigration.
From my understanding of this bill, it is not "2" people exchanging, rather it is for an employers of 25+. Personally, I don't like that it is attached to a business's employment numbers and would prefer it attached to the the actual incorporation of a business.
Basically, as an LLC, s-corp, c-corp, etc. the government is giving a group of people various liability, financial, and taxation advantages that a single person does not have. In return, there are a slew of legal requirement the corp has to follow.
No reason this could not be added in as part of the deal. If you want the benefits of being a corporation, you must hire people that are legally recognized to work with the US. You want to run as a sole proprietor and not take advantage of the benefits, you can hire whomever you like.
Would that make you feel better?
Putting that aside, I get not wanting others permission, but the question is, is it anyone else's business?
One could argue that yes it is. For the most part, unless they are a "cause" type of business, when a business (with 25+ employees) hires an illegal, they are breaking the law an effort to gain an unfair competitive advantage in their market. This may be lower pay, lower additional costs (i.e. avoiding taxes, paying healthcare, mandated overtime, etc.), cut through red tape/paperwork, avoid labor shortages (at least at a specific market price), etc.
If a business cannot remain competitive because other businesses are breaking the law to get ahead, that is very their concern.
Those "advantages" are a consolation prize for all the ridiculous disadvantages, risks, liabilities and costs government is imposing on businesses and that you have to pay no matter how you structure your business.
How about "stop making laws because they aren't enforced". Failure to enforce is a form of "abuse". Selective enforcement is even more abusive. Every law that goes unenforced or selectively enforced simply delegitimizes every other law. A large number of laws exist simply to placate some groups or special interests. Politicians thump their chests claiming they're protecting citizens knowing full well they will never be enforced or will be applied only when politically expedient. Meanwhile overall societal respect for "the Law" is further eroded.
Isn't Massie libertarianish? That means disagreeing with the party leadership which is the same as being a leftist.
You truly are retarded.
Massie goes against leadership, on both teams, all the time. I’d be willing to bet the GOP bigwigs allow it because he gives them some cover.
Serious question: What would be the least intrusive, least "gotcha" method for a government to provide for enforcement of an employment eligibility law?
What justification is there for employment eligibility laws?
What justification is there for any law! God gave me personhood, no one is sovereign over me!
/s
Illegal immigration is a cost. Most low earners are an overall cost. Think about all the free resources you used while homeless. Are you truly this retarded?
Aren't no-earners more of a cost than low-earners?
What's the justification for the government taking more than half my earnings every year? I don't see you complaining about that.
Get rid of the US income, capital gains, FICA, and healthcare related taxes, get rid of US professional licensing and other employment restrictions, and THEN I will gladly join you in removing citizenship restrictions for employment.
But you're not interested in liberty, Sarcasmic, you just want to help the radical left to destroy the US.
That's not what I'm asking. Given that a country has such laws, what's the least intrusive way to enforce them?
1) secure border that allows no illegal entry and 2) deport every illegal alien
How can that be done in the lowest-intrusion manner?
to stop entry is easy. build a double wall that is 50 yards apart. put automated machine gun turrets and a deep moat in between. any attempted crossing results in death.
deporting is also easy. through the force of law you make in so miserable and unbearable for the illegals that they'll self deport.
Deportation is easy. They get stopped, driven to an airstrip and put on a plane. The plane flies back to the country of origin. If denied landing, the next plane is escorted by the Air Force. 2 weeks and the illegal entry slows to a trickle.
Why do you want an "employment eligibility law" in the first place?
Did you and sarc get the same set of retarded talking points?
Poor Jesse. I think he has responded to every comment that I made today and I didn't read a single one of them. Poor poor right-wing Jesse. He so desperately craves my attention and validation. It is because he is insecure. He knows that his entire worldview is built upon narrative and dogma, not facts and reality. He knows that his power of "persuasion" is based primarily on insults and logical fallacy, not rationally constructed argument from timeless principle. He can't survive outside of his right-wing bubble which validates him. He is smart enough to know this and it scares him.
We can’t have true freedom until we have military checkpoints at key locations in every city, town, and rural area. That way nobody without papiers will be able to do shit. Sure we’ll all be treated as enemies at gunpoint until we prove our innocence, but that’s a small price to pay for keeping illegals in their place.
Freedom!
But there won't be any papers, it can be on your smart tracking phone.
Yeap. Still retarded the 4th time.
Yes, Sarcasmic, and that is the kind of nation YOU want to create, by imposing massive taxes on US citizens, expropriating US citizens, and flooding the country with illegals.
ok so you don't want e-verify then let's just deport EVERY illegal alien. that's a better option anyway.
How will you find them all?
One big step towards that would be enforcing employment eligibility laws.
This means in practice sending small business owners to jail.
Any business owners.
Well it's going to mean small business owners predominantly. You think Tyson or ADM execs are going to jail before your local construction firm owner? Fat chance.
I don't see any exemptions from employment eligibility requirements based on company size. If those CEOs set policies that result in knowingly hiring illegals, they should go to jail, just like if those CEOs participate in tax evasion or securities fraud.
Correct: if you knowingly employ illegals, you are defrauding your fellow citizens by tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and you should go to jail for that.
Why not let employers decide who they hire? If someone immigrates and has a paying job, what harm does he or she do to anyone else?
They invaded our country.
The US makes more than a trillion dollars of new debt a year. That's because we borrow money to subsidize everybody in the country with services, insurance, and infrastructure.
And with our progressive tax system, any new adult who doesn't earn substantially more than average is a substantial drain on the nation. Illegal immigrants on average do not earn substantially more than average, nor do their children or grand children.\
Those are just financial reasons. In addition, there are cultural ones, like the fact that many of the people who come here illegally come from cultures whose values are incompatible with ours.
Just look at the Biden administration's COVID-19 vaccine mandate, which required workplaces with over 100 employees to make workers get vaccinated or undergo weekly testing
It's not a mandate. You could easily find another job with an employer with less than 100 employees.
Just because a choice is difficult doesn't make it any less a choice.
What if I choose not to decide?
Then you still have made a choice,
No Diane, that's a mandate. Why would you think otherwise?
Not sure about you, but Mike has literally made that argument. Diane is tweaking the people that have done the same.
No federal data base has ever been inaccurate, or abused by the deep state, or maintained illegally.
Ever.
Not one.
The government says so.
I make you a deal: we can abolish mandatory e-verify again right after we abolish the IRS!
There is nothing libertarian about forcing employers to become tax collectors. That is job of government. There is nothing libertarian about forcing employers to enforce immigration law. That is the job of government. I have no problem with border enforcement but the government has no legitimate authority to turn me into a border cop.
+10000000.
Prohibiting abetting a crime seems reasonable to me.
We don't live in a libertarian society. And adopting a haphazard smattering of libertarianish ideas (e.g. open borders or selective immigration enforcement) within a progressive welfare state where the government controls more than half of the economy doesn't make us more libertarian, it actually makes us less libertarian.
at the very least its just crazy naïve or mendaciously obtuse
Massie is correct here. The Republicans can't fall into the trap that's been set for them. The refusal to deal with the border situation is not just an accident... and while there's certainly a lot of incompetence to go around, there is an agenda here. By not controlling the borders, what follows is a certain degree of chaos that can then be exploited for more centralized control. Massie appears to not be falling for the impulse.
‘Cause I mean, it’s just like, people like, showing up and stuff. What do you care if someone wants to come and just like, live here man?
*crowd cheer*
Funny how they paint an invasion as just people showing up. It's not just the invasion part but it's what those people represent. Hitler just showed up in German Politics one day too.
Describing peaceful migration as an "invasion" is deliberately inflammatory designed to paint penniless Guatemalans as some sinister force. It is designed to stoke an emotional reaction of fear and anger, which is the whole point of demagoguery. It is unhelpful and inappropriate.
There are sinister forces behind the invasion.
Entering another country in violation of their laws is not peaceful.
"There are sinister forces behind the invasion."
Is it Soros? Tell me it's Soros.
"Entering another country in violation of their laws is not peaceful."
Maybe the laws are mostly bullshit. Maybe the peaceful part stems from the fact that the vast majority of penniless Guatemalans who come here don't commit any violent crimes and only want to improve their lives and those of their families. Maybe you should stop declaring some of the most powerless people on the planet as being some sort of threat to you while you sit in your La-Z-Boy of Privilege bemoaning how they are simultaneously stealing your job while mooching off welfare and plotting the destruction of America.
"only want to improve their lives and those of their families"
On a Gov-Gun STOLEN dime of someone else's.
There should be room for 'assets' to society; but your compulsive need to whine about 'penniless' just conquers the point your trying to make.
"Oh.. Poor helpless me... I deserve to graze someone else's greener pasture."
The very premise that created the sh*thole they're trying to escape. Their nightmare didn't happen by coincidence. The notion you're trying to sell is EXACTLY the creation of their nightmare and it'll be ours too very soon unless it's countered with US Constitutional principles.
Just don’t send em to sanctuary cities like NY Chicago, or DC, eh Jeff? Keep the “penniless” and “powerless” migrants somewhere else. Even though they’re an unmitigated positive for the country. As long as they don’t come to my city. That’s “overwhelming”.
You hypocrites are pathetic.
Doing that is just a political stunt!!!!
Well if you don’t have fear and anger about the USA being toppled with [Na]tional So[zi]alism; I’d say there’s something wrong with you.
I think you’ll find that US citizens will be much more accepting of immigration when immigration doesn’t account for over 1/2 the socialist role card while only representing 1/10 the population.
Oh right; immigration law is SUPPOSE to address that.
I don't think penniless Guatemalans are Nazis per se. Guess that's just me.
What; You've never heard the pitches to use Gov-Guns and STEAL for the 'poor' around here?
You must be joking 🙂
There is no "trap" here: the only way to have meaningful immigration enforcement is through employment, banking, etc.
E-verify is probably not the best way to do that. The best and simplest way of doing it would be through the IRS and banking laws.
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Summary.. Thomas Massie doesn't trust the treasonous Nazi-Empire that took over the USA..
And rightly so..
But there is still a purpose/job of enumerated powers even if it's UN-trustworthy and ignores all of it's jobs and does everything illegally like a massive armed crook.
I would certainly be open to alternatives.
And you think that income tax enforcement, that applies to everyone, is the right way to do it? I am not comfortable at all with the enumerated power to control immigration being interpreted to apply to pretty much any and all financial transactions.
Not at all. That's why I'm certainly open to other alternatives.
I'd say the first thing needs to be to actually control the border in some more consistent way. All these internal checks increase interference with actual citizens' lives and business and won't do much about illegal immigration when loads of them are still crossing the border every day.
We don’t need E-verify, since we already have intrusive federal agencies that have all the information and enforcement powers.
Employers must report employees to the IRS. The IRS collects citizenship information. Treat employers and employees that report false citizenship information to the IRS as tax frauds and prosecute them accordingly.
Banks have “know your customer” laws with harsh penalties, and those include information about citizenship. Apply those same penalties to any bank who does business with an illegal alien in the US.
That should be enough for starters. That is, subject illegal aliens to the same hassles, privacy intrusions, and obligations as Americans and hold them accountable under existing laws. No e-verify needed, just the willingness of the IRS and bank regulators to do to illegal aliens what they are already doing to US citizens.
That would be a good libertarian strategy, because it means that instead of what we have right now (selective enforcement of laws against US citizens), it ties less restrictive and less punitive migration policies to reducing the power of the IRS and financial regulators in general.
Fuck that. If you want to control the borders, control the borders. Don't ask for more government invasion into everyone's business. Why should people in general not be allowed to be more free and more anonymous in employment and banking and many other things?
The "government invasion into everybody's business" already exists. I'm simply asking that we use it to enforce the law.
I'm all for that. But the status quo is that no American is "anonymous in employment and banking and many other things". Your employment, banking, and lots of other info is kept track of in detail by state and federal agencies. For example, as an American, financial institutions worldwide are required to report on US citizens to the US government. And you're required to self-report on lots of details of your employment and financial life under harsh penalties.
You know who is effectively exempt from such privacy-invading reporting requirements? Illegal aliens living in the US. How about we prosecute and punish them the same way we do American citizens?
Or we could just reform the immigration system, and help more people become legal in less than 30 years. I still don’t understand this whole argument because it’s not like we have boatloads of white kids lining up to do landscaping jobs and work at car washes. I have had so much work done at my house, and I’ve had the most kind, respectful, hardworking guys working here, and, assuming some of them may not be legal, I would have no problem with granting citizenship to those that have jobs.
If they were legal, we could tax them, and then the problem will be solved. As long as someone doesn’t have a criminal background and wants to have gainful employment here, we need the workers, and low wage, manual labor is not going to displace high wage white color labor currently out of work because of tech layoffs.
Yeah; Why stop at being the #1 nation of immigration??
Heck; Why not just invite the entire worlds population into the USA. /s
Common over Russia; We won’t even stop your invasion. /s
Take a helicopter ride
They are already being taxed. But they don't earn enough money to pay for the costs the impose on US society. We add more than $1 trillion per year to the national debt. Every low skill worker or immigrant you bring into the country makes that worse. The only people who reduce the national debt are people in the top 10-20% of income earners.
Much as racists like you think this is a matter of skin color, it is not. It's because government regulations and taxes have priced them out of the market, and government incentives encourage them not to work. Legalize the illegal migrants, and they won't do your yard work either.
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Paranoid much Massie.
Its not like he DOJ is threatening parents with domestic terrorism for disagreeing with schoolboards. And you'd have to be some kind of conspiracy nut to think they would put a MAGA supporter on the Do Not Work list, for not agreeing with a Health emergency orders. Nope thats just neo nazi Canadian truckers who think that. DHS wouldn't plant agitators into protest groups or setup two autistic idiots with 14 FBI agents. They are just going to go after illegal aliens. They wouldn't use this against anyone applying for a job for Trump, freezing out his ability to hire people. No, not the saintly federal government.
I am a doctor and a citizen.
I have to show my employer that I am eligible to work with a real I D or passport.
Illegal immigration is illegal and these people should not be allowed to drive down wages for Americans.
E verify nationwide is a great idea
I am a doctor and a citizen. I have to show my employer that I am eligible to work with a real I D or passport.
Maybe that's the problem we should be worrying about.
I’m a bit torn about this one. The E-verify system could be wrong and it could be abused. However, we need to reform immigration, and to have any political breathing room we need to reduce illegal immigration so we’re not in the middle of a crisis. The incentive for illegal immigration needs to be reduced. E-verify could be the wrong way to go about it. What are other ways? Aid to the countries with miserable gang rule, kidnaping and extortion?
E-verify is just another way to violate basic privacy and improve income tax collection. If you are concerned about illegal immigration, work to make the border more secure. Don't ask the federal government to get even farther up everyone's ass. In a better world without income tax or withholding, why should an employer even be required to know the name of someone they want to employ?
Showing a valid ID to buy alcohol or enter certain locations but, hey, to get a job? Why bother? Amash has issues with rational thought, and Massie is imprudent to chime in.
This is not a security issue (buying alcohol or voting are not national security issues either), so that is a red herring. This is about fairness. This is about employers cheating Americans of the right to work. Employers who don’t want to pay payroll taxes are the real problem.
Employers who don't want to pay payroll taxes; or who want compliant workers who won't complain about working conditions or pay because they're afraid; or who want workers for illegal activities; or who outright want to buy a slave.
E-Verify is only bad if you support illegal immigration and Thomas Massie just came out of the closet. A number of states (including Arizona, Barry Goldwater's state) have E-Verify and it works fine. Illegal immigration is a chatel slavery racket that no libertarian should support.
Illegal immigration is a chatel slavery racket
I suppose you could make a libertarian argument for indentured servitude...