'Stand Your Ground' Laws Are Back in the News, but It's Not Clear Why
The duty to retreat from public confrontations has nothing to do with the cases cited in recent stories about seemingly unjustified shootings.

"Stand your ground" self-defense laws have been back in the news recently, although it is not clear why. That mystery highlights longstanding journalistic confusion on this subject, which misrepresents such laws as a license to kill anyone who looks at you cross-eyed.
"A string of recent shootings have put renewed attention on the self-defense laws often known as 'stand your ground' laws," NPR's Adrian Florido reports. "In the span of a week, 16-year-old Ralph Yarl was shot twice after ringing the doorbell of the wrong house in the state of Missouri as he was trying to pick up his siblings. In upstate New York, Kaylin Gillis was shot and killed after her boyfriend pulled into the wrong driveway as they searched for a friend's home. And in Texas, two cheerleaders were shot after one accidentally got into a car that she thought was her own."
Florido adds that "the shooters in these cases have not yet invoked their state's 'stand your ground' laws." There are good reasons for that.
The distinguishing feature of "stand your ground" laws is that they eliminate the duty to retreat for people confronted by threats of violence in public places. The shooting of Ralph Yarl did not happen in a public place; it happened on the doorstep of the man who shot him. The shooting of Kaylin Gillis likewise happened on the property of the man who killed her. New York, in any event, is not one of the 28 states with "stand your ground" laws. And as Reason's J.D. Tuccille notes, the Texas cheerleaders, Payton Washington and Heather Roth, "were chased by their assailants, which isn't self-defense by any understanding."
So why does NPR suggest that any of these defendants might successfully invoke a "stand your ground" defense? You got me.
A recent New York Times article that begins by citing the shootings in Missouri and New York is equally hazy on the relevance of "stand your ground" laws. Reporter Adeel Hassan compounds the confusion by mentioning a Florida jury's 2013 acquittal of George Zimmerman, who was charged with second-degree murder and manslaughter after he shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
Zimmerman argued that he reasonably feared for his life when Martin pinned him to the ground, punched him, and smacked his head against the pavement. That account was supported by physical evidence and witness testimony. Given those circumstances, the absence of a duty to retreat did not figure in Zimmerman's defense or in the verdict.
Politico reporter Brakkton Booker nevertheless asserts that Florida's "stand your ground" law was "central" to Zimmerman's trial. Booker also thinks the shooting of Ralph Yarl "has all the ingredients to revive the national debate over 'stand your ground' laws," although he never explains why.
Hassan at least correctly distinguishes between "the common-law 'castle doctrine'" and "stand your ground" laws. The castle doctrine says people have no duty to retreat when they are confronted by intruders in their own homes. "Stand your ground" laws, Hassan notes, "go further" because they "apply anyplace where a person has a legal right to be, not just at home." He cites Florida's law as an example.
Under Florida's self-defense statute, "a person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony." The law adds that "a person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be."
Texas has a similar law. It allows someone to use deadly force when he "reasonably believes" it is "immediately necessary" to protect himself against the "use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force." It adds that "a person who has a right to be present at the location where the force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the force is used is not required to retreat before using force as described by this section."
Note that both of those statutes, like self-defense laws generally, require that the fear justifying the use of force be reasonable in light of the circumstances. A Texas Tribune story about Daniel Perry, who was convicted this month of murdering Garrett Foster, a protester he encountered at a 2020 Black Lives Matter march in Austin, elides that crucial point. Reporter William Melhado says "the case sparked debates over Texas' 'stand your ground' law, which allows people to use deadly force against someone else if they feel they are in danger."
As Perry discovered, a feeling is not enough. Perry argued that he reasonably believed shooting Foster was immediately necessary because Foster had aimed a rifle at him. That situation would justify the use of deadly force regardless of any general duty to retreat. But Perry's statements to police were the only evidence supporting his claim, which was contradicted by several witnesses. The prosecution maintained that Foster never raised his rifle, and the jury evidently agreed.
Left-leaning critics of "stand your ground" laws are not the only people promoting myths about what those laws entail. Texas Gov. Greg Abbott, who the day after Perry's conviction promised to pardon him if asked, also implied that the duty to retreat had something to do with the case. "Texas has one of the strongest 'stand your ground' laws of self-defense," he wrote on Twitter, and that law "cannot be nullified by a jury or a progressive District Attorney."
Contrary to Abbott's implication, Perry could have offered the same defense in a state without a "stand your ground" law. After Foster raised his rifle, Perry's lawyer told the jury, Perry "had two-tenths of second to figure out whether he was going to live or die." The jurors' rejection of Perry's defense hinged on their skepticism of that account, not on their belief that the shooting would have been unjustified even if Perry had actually raised his rifle.
Homicide defendants do sometimes invoke the absence of a duty to retreat in public places, although often implausibly and unsuccessfully, and there is a legitimate debate about whether that extension of self-defense law is fair and prudent. But that debate is muddied whenever news outlets bring up the controversy in contexts where it is plainly irrelevant.
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The real problem is guns in the hands of non-law enforcement. Now that we've evolved past #defundthepolice... in fact, we never even suggested that we actually "defund the police", we're finally working on the gun problem, one blue state at a time.
I’m hoping half the counties in the state leave over this.
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leaving the state isn't an option, but it'd be interesting to see how far the Sherriffs could go in declaring their counties to be 2nd Amendment "sanctuary" jurisdictions and refuse to enforce the ban on sales.
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So what do you plan to do with the ~75-90 million AR-15’s and AK-47’s and “knock-offs” and similar magazine fed semi-automatic weapons that are already out there in the hands of the lunatics whom you fear? Advocating anything short of prohibition with severe penalties for violation accompanied by door-to-door confiscation is either impotent virtue signaling or mental masturbation. If you are going to advocate for confiscation, will you be willing to go knocking on doors to collect these machines of the devil? If you are not willing to help with the confiscation, why are you not?
If you look over the text of the WA law, there are any number of factual errors and inaccuracies in the law.
Hardly matters there though, it was written by the ignorant political class of a one-party State government to appeal to the emotional and ideological dogma of their constituency, who have mostly learned almost everything they think they know about guns from Michael Bay, and the remainder from Mike Bloomberg who once expanded on why a 12-GA shotgun is a better home defense weapon than an AR-15 because "an untrained person is more likely to hit something" when shooting it, and that someone armed with a shotgun who suspects a "home invasion" type of attack is imminent should shoot blindly through the door in order to stop whoever might be on the other side.
The most important thing to remember is that the armed agents of the State who are "actively hunting black and brown people" and will murder any "melanated" individual they happen to encounter and fabricate a justification later are also somehow uniquely qualified to be in legal possession of the means of lethal force.
Beyond that, nobody should have any need for self defense because the deep and abiding regard with which violent criminals view the law will prevent them from seeking out or obtaining prohibited weapons. Additionally, legal prohibition has such a long and consistent history of making the prohibited items unavailable, any criminals who do look for weapons would be unable to locate any once they're banned anyway.
They’re not confused, they’re lying. They know those laws don’t mean what they claim they do. They’re just lying to push a narrative, like always.
Yep. The agenda is to attack self defense as a concept. They’re now going after laws they don’t like by connecting to shootings that are optically bad.
Next youre going to say news misrepresents the Dont Say Gay law. Thank God misrepresentations never happen here.
Next you’ll be saying Joe wasn’t telling people to shoot through their doors.
Oh, I do not know about that. I can certainly buy into the idea that a journalist may not have the brains to understand what laws mean. though I do also think they do not really care over promoting their narrative, either.
Wasn't there another recent shooting in North Carolina?
Yes, there was one mentioned in Tucille’s article on mass shootings, right in my hometown of Gastonia, NC.
Fortunately, the asshole in Gastonia, NC–who shot at a Father, Mother, and their children over a basketball in his yard–turned himself in while in Florida:
EXCLUSIVE: ‘I was just protecting my kid.’ Gaston County father recounts night family was shot by neighbor
https://www.qcnews.com/crime-and-public-safety/exclusive-i-was-just-protecting-my-kid-gaston-county-father-recounts-night-family-was-shot-by-neighbor/
And far from being anyone sent over the edge or “a victim of circumstance” , the asshole shooter had previous felony charges of communicating threats, kidnapping and sledgehammering a woman in December and he was out on $250,000 bail. Even with bail being Ten Cents on the Dollar, this asshole probably has gang ties to have gotten out of jail.
The asshole shooter also stated racial hatred against the victims during the incident, so a hate-crime charge could plausibly arise too:
Little girl, parents shot after ball rolls into gunman’s yard in Gastonia; suspect found in Florida: police
https://www.qcnews.com/news/u-s/north-carolina/gaston-county/police-search-for-suspect-after-gastonia-double-shooting/amp
None of this related to the nationwide or local political mess, except insofar as somebody didn’t abide by the Libertarian idea of NAP/NIFF. Nothing to do with Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground here either.
Now that the asshole shooter is caught, maybe the asshole will be held without bail bond and get multiple life sentences.
Here's the local story that confirms the racist motive for the shooting:
Crowder's Mountain Man Says He Was Shot Shielding His Daughter
https://www.gastongazette.com/story/news/crime/2023/04/24/crowders-mountain-man-says-he-was-shot-shielding-his-daughter/70146235007/
Out of all the cases cited, and the one ignored, one of the families raised 3 million of the news, the others raised about 80k. What was the difference? Which one got white house invites?
This isn't a mystery. They jumped to conclusions after the he wasn't immediately arrested for shooting a teen. In absence of 'suspect was immediately taken into custody' , people started speculating on what would make them not arrest the guy. 'Stand your ground' is the most likely scapegoat for not immediately arresting a shooter. Once the police started releasing an official statement, the speculating died off.
Suppose the media was promoting an amendment to the tax code. They would look for cases of tragic deaths to "start a conversation" on the need for revising the tax code. Hopefully the change would be passed before people start asking what the tragic deaths have to do with tax laws.
"You just want people to die!" Love, Remy ...
"So why does NPR suggest that any of these defendants might successfully invoke a "stand your ground" defense? You got me."
Is it really that hard to figure out? They're deliberately misrepresenting the laws. There's no misunderstanding- and even if there was, it would be easily fixed by some basic research.
The intent is to demonize self-defense laws.
Activist reporters looking to turn sentiment against a certain policy they don't like can't always rely on cases actually involving said policy happening, so they have to resort to spin and extrapolation beyond the facts of whatever actually happened.
Reporters and columnists are dazed and confused about stand-your-ground laws either because they need to be in order to maintain their fictional anti-gun narratives; or because – well – lefty journalists are just naturally dazed and confused to start with; or both. Take your pick, hit don’t make me no never-mind either way …
There's video of Foster having his rifle in a low ready position. He was definitely handling it near the car.
Is there a link to the video?
Foster may or may not have been preparing to fire his weapon at Terry – I don’t know and I doubt I will ever really know absent some clear and close-up video footage of Foster just before he was shot. Neither, frankly, does any reader of this article or the comments. The witnesses who testified that the shooting was unnecessary (a) may have been telling the truth, or (b) they may have (honestly) failed to appreciate the indications of an immediate pending attack by Foster, or (c) they may have flat been lying on the stand in support of a political agenda. All three alternatives are possible, and only a liar would claim definite knowledge of the factual truth.
But the jury determines the legal truth, and that’s just the way our system works. I have no doubt that an Austin, Texas jury would be more inclined to convict in cases such as this than would juries selected from venues that are more politically conservative and more comfortable with the possession and supportive of the use of weapons in self defense. But that, also, is just the way our system works. Jury research (done in Texas, if I remember correctly) found mock jury panels more inclined to convict in identical fact situations when presented with identical shooting scenarios that varied only in the style/type of weapon the shooter used when the weapon was ugly or "repulsive, e.g., an AR-15 vs a .30-30 lever action rifle. This is illogical, but remember that Mr. Spock rarely survives the voir dire process and actually gets to sit on a jury when a prosecutor's political dander is up.
And there’s another thing about our system and how it works. Juries, whether “allowed” to or not, consider a lot of things in their deliberations, regardless of whether those considerations are ever given voice to. So, it is wise for those whose possession and use of a weapon might someday subject them to a similar trial situation, to consider what you say and what “footprints” you are leaving for a juror to “consider”, and do not post or casually comment that:
(1) trespassers will be shot
(2) survivors will be shot again
(3) you loot, I shoot
(4) this house protected by Smith & Wesson Security
(5) demonstrators blocking the street deserve to be shot
(6) I wish one of those assholes would try that with me!
(7) I think I’m going to go to Austin to . . . .
(8) . . . . stack the bodies like cordwood.
(9) some folks just deserve to be shot
I am sure the reader can think of other comments, verbal or written, that they have heard, or perhaps made, in the past that are inflammatory, would be embarrassing, would undermine their defense as a “reasonable person”, and that they would not like to have read to a jury judging whether or not a shooting they were involved in was “justified”.
If you are ever so unfortunate as to have to use lethal force, especially in a jurisdiction well-known for hostility toward guns or perhaps even private self-defense in any form, do you really want to be sitting on the stand (you will have to testify if your defense is that you fired in self-defense) and have any of the above comments or posts read back to you, or worse, to be asked (ordered) to read such a post yourself and admit to the jury that those are your words.
As to whether Gov. Abbott should pardon Terry – just as with the situations above, I don’t know! He should obtain all the information that he can, watch whatever video is available 20+ times, and then do what he thinks is right – not what his advisers tell him is politically expedient.
As Perry discovered, a feeling is not enough. Perry argued that he reasonably believed shooting Foster was immediately necessary because Foster had aimed a rifle at him.
This case is a perfect example of what a joke the justice system is under Bolshevik (soros) rule.
This is a cut and dry case of justified self defense but Perry is on the wrong team so off too the gulag with you!
The prosecution maintained that Foster never raised his rifle, and the jury evidently agreed.
Uh, the jury was a bunch of bolsheviks hand-picked by the Soros DA in Austin. Perry never had a chance.
The prosecution maintained that Foster never raised his rifle, and the jury evidently agreed.
No, they did not evaluate that part of the case at all. They determined his guilt ahead of the trial based on principals over principles. Anyone with half a brain can realize this.
Sullum is truly an evil tumor shamelessly shilling for totalitarian corruption
It didn't help that the witnesses were all fellow protesters. What were they going to say? "Oh, yeah, Foster was totally going to blow him away!"?
Perry needed to have a dash cam, he needed a video recording of what happened. And he didn't have that.
If you're going to carry in your car, you probably want to get a dash cam, one of the ones that takes video in all directions.
Also, Perry would've had a stronger case if he hadn't bragged on social media before the demonstration that he was "gonna get me some protestors" and then deliberately driven his car into the crowd. Common sense says don't leave a trail of evidence pointing to your guilt.
The left invokes stand your ground because they want the right to defend it. Once the arguments are raised the left will switch to claiming the right is defending these specific killings instead of SYG generally. This is how the propaganda machine works.
https://twitter.com/LeeHudson_/status/1651014200175501314?t=W_qiqvS1a0iiHG58uA0Vgg&s=19
NEW: On Tucker Carlson leaving Fox: “We’re a better country without him bagging on our military every night in front of hundreds of thousands of people,” said one senior Pentagon official. via @laraseligman
[Link]
Politico reporter Brakkton Booker…thinks the shooting of Ralph Yarl "has all the ingredients to revive the national debate over 'stand your ground' laws," although he never explains why.
New York, in any event, is not one of the 28 states with "stand your ground" laws.
So this “reporter” thinks a state-specific law, that will not be used in a specific shooting, that he can’t be troubled to attempt to connect, should revive a national debate? He sounds like an intellectual titan.
"Muddied" is the goal, Jacob, not an unfortunate side effect.
Great Article, Suppose the media is promoting a change in the tax law. They will be looking for cases of tragic deaths to "start the conversation" about the need to revise the tax code. Hopefully that amendment will pass before people start asking what the tragic death has to do with the tax law.
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Texas's SYG law sound a bit more sane than Florida's. The "who has not provoked the person against whom the force is used" clause is a key element. Zimmerman provoked the confrontation with Martin in Florida. He likely would've been found guilty in Texas.
The why is simple. Another direction to attack firearms ownership. That it is as fraudulent a tack as all the others has no import. If they get lucky (as in so many blue states) they limit people's access to defense, and tie up millions of dollars in appeals to overturn their efforts. If they fail, they still get tremendous publicity and twist the minds of many who do not understand the realities. Even to the point of claiming Trayvon Martin was an SYG case...it never met the definition under Florida law of Stand Your Ground, but the media did not need facts to call it that.