Of Course Washington and Moscow Are Fighting a Proxy War
That doesn't mean Russia is right. It means we're being honest about how much the U.S. is involved.

This month's Discord leak of U.S. intelligence documents about the war in Ukraine has reignited a long-running debate about the conflict: Does U.S. aid to Kyiv amount to a proxy war against Russia?
The papers "illustrate how deeply the United States is involved in virtually every aspect of the war," wrote Washington Post senior national security correspondent Karen DeYoung in an able summary of the "proxy war" controversy. "The leaked documents confirm in detail that the United States is using its vast array of espionage and surveillance tools—including cutting-edge satellites and signals intelligence—to keep Kyiv ahead of Moscow's war plans and help them inflict Russian casualties." It's enough that, were three different countries involved in the same situation, we'd likely reach for the "proxy war" label with ease.
But the Biden administration has vehemently rejected the term on moral grounds. "We are not in a war with Russia, and we won't be in a war with Russia," DeYoung quotes Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin saying in an interview. His reasoning? The war "was Russia's choice to begin with."
So it was. But that says nothing about what the U.S. is doing, which by the administration's own account includes wanting "to see Russia weakened," and supporting the Ukrainian war effort—at a per-year price on par with the annual costs of the initial invasion and occupation of Afghanistan—for "as long as it takes."
Two things can be true at once here: The U.S. can admit that Russia is the aggressor, wholly in the wrong with this invasion, and admit that American involvement is extensive enough that the "proxy war" charge is at least plausible to reasonable people. Acknowledging the one does not negate the other—and false dichotomies won't move us toward greater understanding, prudent foreign policy, or peace.
Unfortunately, President Joe Biden's team isn't alone in this kind of thinking. The president's Republican critics are doing it too, albeit in mirror image. Former President Donald Trump, for example, has said the war is a U.S. "proxy battle" and Biden is only "pretending to fight for freedom" in Ukraine. But, again, it can be both: Ukraine really was invaded, and the Ukrainian people, especially in Russian-occupied territories, have suffered horrifying losses of life and liberty. That Washington also may have other, less idealistic motives for intervention doesn't make that cease to be the case.
This simplistic framing is particularly indefensible right now, just a month past the 20-year anniversary of the United States' invasion of Iraq. As many retrospectives recognized, there's no need to choose between ousted Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein did awful things and should not have been in power and the U.S. should not have invaded Iraq to oust Saddam Hussein. How have we not absorbed that unmistakable lesson in the often-painful moral messiness of war?
Acknowledging and grappling with that complexity doesn't mean being a moral squish. It doesn't mean equivocation or cynicism or refusing to call things by their names. It means recognizing that even the U.S. military has limits to its capabilities, that even the most powerful nation on earth has finite power and must choose priorities among its possible uses, and that even America cannot police the world and forcibly remake it in its own image.
There's a reason, after all, that then–Secretary of State John Quincy Adams spoke of America not going "abroad in search of monsters to destroy" in his famous 1821 Independence Day address: There really are monsters. There are always monsters. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is monstrous.
That was Adams' whole point. If there weren't monsters abroad, there'd be no need to caution against going in search of them, no need to praise wise abstention "from interference in the concerns of others, even when [the] conflict [is] for principles to which [America] clings."
The "monsters" line is the most quoted part of Adams' speech, but in light of Ukraine and the proxy war debate, another piece bears revisiting, too. America "well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication," Adams said, "in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom."
That latter description doesn't ring true of the war in Ukraine—not on Ukraine's side, anyway. (Moscow, absurdly, has claimed its attack was defensive, which sounds a lot like the usurpation Adams had in mind.)
But the part about extrication is all too familiar. It points to questions we should already be asking about this conflict: Are there lines we won't cross? Are there circumstances under which the U.S. role would change? Will "as long as it takes" become "whatever it takes," especially if the presidency changes hands? What kind of accountability can we expect as the mission evolves—or, for that matter, as it stalemates?
The longer U.S. intervention in this war continues, the more unacceptable oversimplification and public "accountability" via leaks become—and the more we need realism and transparency from Washington.
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>>Are there lines we won't cross?
are exploded natural gas lines a line to cross?
Is spiking peace talks a line we won't cross either?
A war that the US started by coordinating the 2014 coup, and civil war putting Zelensky in charge to employ Nazis to do their dirty work.
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You two get a room and enjoy your shared hatred and as always:
Fuck Off, Nazi!
It almost makes me want to mute poopypants.
Alas, the bigotry button is not for me.
Are we treating it as a proven fact now that the US sabotaged the Nord Stream 2 pipeline?
Treating it as the most likely by far. No other story is even close.
You do understand that right? You don't always have to defend the Biden administration's narratives.
Mike likes to take me literally and millennialliterally
Even jokes are made within a context. Pleading “it was only a joke” can be akin to motte-and-bailey.
you try to create arguments where there are none.
Are there lines we won't cross? is a supposition. The comments are following suit. Are you supposing we are treating it as fact?
and I made a line crack too ...
Biden and Nuland promised to do so, then Nuland bragged about it, and Joe laughed about it.
But, no, per KJP, Putin seems the most likely suspect. Why turn off a valve to your best customer you don’t want to stop selling to anyway, when you can blow up your own shit? Makes sense
It may be in no one's interest to find out the answer.
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We are advising on kinetics.
It’s a proxy proxy war.
Hey dummies, as soon as you admit it’s a proxy war, you risk losing the proxy aspect.
What is wrong with you people?
El Salvador and Nicaragua were Proxy Wars. We are fighting a proxy war, they are not
Ackshuyally, if it is not at Absolute Zero° Kelvin--and it can't be according to The Third Law of Thermodynamics--everything is kinetic.
Of course, the leaks revealed a little more than U.S. involvement rises to a proxy war. They revealed that the U.S. has special forces on the ground, almost certainly in combat (you generally don't send special forces for show or to "verify your own weapons"). That starts to exceed proxy war to undeclared hot war. And they also revealed that Zelensky and his cronies have been siphoning graft off the top and that the Ukrainians are talking about striking at targets in Russia. So much for the "at least on Ukraine's side" bit.
And none of this is to speak well of Putin. Just the stupidity of inserting ourselves into a war that has nothing to do with us.
Ok, so, other than the fact that it might get them nuked, is there any reason Ukraine shouldn't strike targets in Russia? I say that once they invaded, they really lost the right to complain, there.
There's A LOT of backstory you're probably unfamiliar with.
Russia has a law that they cannot send conscripts to a foreign war.
So he has to use his volunteers, contract soldiers, convicts and Wagner mercenaries.
He’s fighting with one hand tied behind his back.
Once the Ukrainians start attacking targets inside Russia, he is free to use all the forces at his disposal.
And he will just overwhelm the Ukrainian army with pure numbers of troops.
So Ukraine would be mad to attack Russian sites and trigger this law.
One, Putin is the law in Russia, and, two, if it were the law that Putin couldn't use conscripts, then why did millions of men of combat age get the Hell out of Russia?
Special forces train and advise from behind the lines. It would be stupid for them to go into combat and risk getting captured or found dead by the Russians.
Uhm special forces don't usually operate behind the lines. Yes, their primary mission is training, but they often do that in conflict zones, including helping with logistics, combat command, even actively participating in combat in an advisory role but also as a force enhancer. They are also quite capable of conducting kinetic actions, and have done so multiple times in other theaters. Special forces specialize in training and leading from the front. Actively working with indigenous forces to enhance their fighting capabilities, coordinate with allied forces, and conduct asymmetrical warfare. Working behind the lines is actually detrimental to their mission.
Please see my thoughts here on Kinetics.
That doesn't mean Russia is right.
It also doesn't mean that it's our war to fight one way or the other. We've done this proxy bullshit before - see War, Vietnam for how well that turned out. We also should ask ourselves, regardless of whether Russia or Ukraine is right (or if both are wrong), is defending Ukraine in this manner a matter of vital national interest. I'm not convinced that it is.
It is a matter of vital Biden family interest.
And yet the St. Louis Post Dispatch editorialized that Biden is "virtually Churchillian" in his handling of the Ukraine situation.
Drunk and reeking of cigars? Maybe. I don't think Winston groped little girls, though.
https://twitter.com/TheCalvinCooli1/status/1649115417246302214?t=NHVP_Hkl55lsNWs2L9OXMw&s=19
A group of GOP lawmakers to send a letter to Biden saying: "Unrestrained US aid for Ukraine must come to an end, and we will adamantly oppose all future aid packages unless they are linked to a clear diplomatic strategy designed to bring this war to a rapid conclusion." Signers
[Link]
We have to fight to the last Ukrainian, because reasons
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"Honest" is a term that should not be associated with our Ukraine endeavor.
>>It means we're being honest about how much the U.S. is involved.
Bee?
If US troops are on the ground for 60 days, the War Powers Act comes into play, doesn't it?
Also: The Congress should vote on authorizing troops in UKR.
If proxy war is the phrase you want to use, then so what.
Russians did initiate this for no reason other than they saw weakness and have irredentist goals.
Russians initiated the escalation to threaten nuclear for the clear purpose of forcing everyone else out and making their proposed victory a proxy war against the US.
Ukrainians are in this fight themselves. This is not some pseudoVietnam.
Our failure is that we are not transitioning towards having Europe assume responsibility for its own future. We are busy tooting our horn, playing God's indispensable nation, and escalating the rhetoric to require us always forever at the center.
More likely, Europe can't take care of its own future anymore because they've spent two generations sucking off our defense teats and not developing their own defense forces. Everyone bashed Trump for stating this but he was right. Basically, NATO has become an albatross, the same as the Ottoman Empire and the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1915, and the Italians in 1942. The most basic function of government is to provide for the common defense, and most advanced nations have forgotten that responsibility as they promise stuff such as 'universal health care' and free college. Once a government can no longer provide for its own defense, it's lost it's only reason for existing.
Everyone bashed Trump for stating this but he was right.
FFS. EVERYONE has been saying that for decades. Including the silly fatalism/contempt about Europe/NATO. Not one iota of it has ever been serious because:
Aiming those statements at the domestic American audience for the purposes of domestic American politics is - not serious.
Aiming those statements at some right-wing European nationalists who supposedly will MEGA is worse than not serious. Those people are pro-Russian and pro-fascist and they deeply despise Americans and everything that America stands for. Lot of paleos fall into that - and Trump kind of did too. But undermining NATO so it is pro-Russian is not remotely in any American self-interest even if our goal is to withdraw or mostly withdraw from NATO.
The careerist DC foreign policy crowd has no interest in letting Europe make significant defense decisions. Their interest is solely in getting Europe to ante up to be an American poodle. Which unfortunately also goes over well with the USAUSAUSA crowd.
And Europe is of course being quite rational in letting the US pay for defense if the US is going to be making all the defense decisions.
Trump didn't DO anything positive here. If he HAD done something positive, then NATO would be shouldering more of the load here wouldn't they. If he SAID something, so fucking what. The point is to DO something.
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