Spat Among Tennessee Lawmakers Illustrates a National Urban-Rural Divide
Decentralizing power is better than trying to jam one vision down the throats of the unwilling.

The drama in Tennessee over lawmakers expelled from the legislature for protesting in favor of gun restrictions on the floor of the House, only for one of them to be reappointed to the seat, can be framed in several ways. It can be seen as a lawmaker punished for abusing the rules of the legislative body. It's also obviously a partisan battle between majority Republicans and opposition Democrats. It has been presented in racial terms, since the ejected members are black. But the confrontation also represents deep and growing disagreements between rural and urban Americans who hold divergent values, prefer very different laws, and inevitably clash in an excessively centralized country.
"The contentious ouster of Tennessee state lawmakers Justin Jones of Nashville and Justin Pearson of Memphis is the latest skirmish in a longstanding power struggle between Republicans who control the state's politics and Democrats in charge of its fast-growing cities," Ginger Adams Otis wrote this week for The Wall Street Journal. "Tennessee is an extreme example of a polarized power dynamic playing out in many parts of the U.S. where red states contend with blue cities."
You could flip the dynamic around and talk about the tension between red counties in blue states, seen in local refusal to enforce gun laws. Either way, it's an expression of the growing divide between the people who live in sparsely populated areas as opposed to those in densely populated cities. Unsurprisingly, people who have chosen to live in very different ways often have incompatible ideas about how life is best lived and the rules, if any, that should prevail.
You are reading The Rattler from J.D. Tuccille and Reason. Get more of J.D.'s commentary on government overreach and threats to everyday liberty.
Disagreements About Almost Everything
As demonstrated in the Tennessee kerfuffle, rural and urban Americans disagree over self-defense rights, with rural dwellers favoring the pro-liberty position while city residents are more likely to support restrictions. Flip those positions when it comes to another hot-button issue: abortion. "Americans in urban and rural communities have widely different views when it comes to social and political issues. From feelings about President Donald Trump to views on immigration and same-sex marriage, there are wide gaps between urban and rural adults," Pew Research polling found in 2018.
This isn't a new divide—once upon a time pundits talked about disagreements between "hicks and slicks" over how the country should be run. But as local rule has been displaced by state governments, and state capitals are marginalized by would-be czars in Washington, D.C., top-down dictates have created more unfortunate opportunities for clashes and rebellion.
Covid-19 became a flashpoint for resentment in areas where social distancing is daily life and lockdowns imposed from afar looked more dangerous than a virus. "Coronavirus restrictions are being written that look to some like they were crafted only with city folks in mind," NPR acknowledged in 2020.
When the federal government offered pandemic relief funds, officials were surprised to be spurned by some rural areas. "Town leaders who refused the latest federal grants say they lack infrastructure, struggling businesses, essential workers or public health efforts to spend the money on," Stateline reported.
Education has now replaced public health policy as grounds for disagreement. When Pew Research examined public school mission statements, it found some big differences when it comes to ideologically charged diversity, equity, and inclusion commitments. "Urban and suburban school districts are at least twice as likely as those in rural areas to mention this issue."
As these urban/rural disagreements have continued, evolved, and grown over the years, they are increasingly framed in partisan terms. That's understandable as the major parties come to represent opposing factions in the battle over whose vision of the good life should be imposed on the losers.
"The 2020 election revealed a stark divide between rural and small-town voters — who overwhelmingly supported Republicans — and those in cities and suburbs, who favored Democrats," Guian McKee of the University of Virginia's Miller Center for Public Affairs wrote after the last presidential election. "Today's blue/red divide then plays out not between regions — as we saw in the famous 2000 electoral map, which introduced the concept of such divisions and pitted red states vs. blue ones — but between metropolitan and rural areas within states."
Sorry. The Divide Can't Be Wished Away.
Unfortunately, city dwellers sometimes fantasize about resolving the dispute through the supposedly inevitable decline of an impoverished and disempowered countryside. That's not going to happen.
"In fact, parts of rural America are thriving, even as other parts decline; just as parts of urban America continue to lose population and face economic decline as other parts comeback," Richard Florida and Karen M. King cautioned in a 2019 University of Toronto paper even before Covid-19 reset assumptions.
With many businesses closed and remote work normalized, the pandemic accelerated a preexisting "big sort" of Americans from areas where they had to live to those they preferred. "While deaths from the virus itself was absolutely a factor in the decline [of urban population], the fact of the matter is that tens of thousands of residents moved away from some of the nation's biggest, most densely populated, and costly metropolitan areas," Sarah Lawrence College's Samuel J. Abrams wrote last year.
School Choice? Why Not Everything Choice?
Interestingly, there are some shared views that point to a path forward. Across urban, suburban, and rural populations, Republicans, independents, and Democrats alike, school choice is overwhelmingly popular. Majorities of Americans favor giving "parents the right to use the tax dollars designated for their child's education to send their child to the public or private school which best serves their needs."
Just as there is no reason to fight over school lesson content if you can choose the education environment that suits your family, so there is no reason to battle over policies if, instead of being imposed from the top down, they're decided locally or by individuals. Locally determined policies are more likely than those decreed from afar to be tolerable by those to whom they apply. They're also more easily escaped with a move to a friendlier jurisdiction. It's easier to migrate from town to town than to another state—or another country.
"People can vote with their feet by choosing which states or local governments they wish to live under, through international migration, and in the private sector," George Mason University's Ilya Somin urged in 2020. "We can make foot voting more accessible by decentralizing more policy issues to states, localities, and the private sector, and by loosening restrictions on the establishment of new private communities."
Just as discussions of blue and red states conceal deeper rural and urban divisions, it's easy to overstate commonalities among city dwellers and country residents alike. New York City isn't Phoenix, and northern New Hampshire isn't Appalachia. People in these areas differ, even if the population divide is deeper. That's all the more reason to refrain from imposing top-down policies on people who will resent them and most likely refuse to submit.
Tennessee lawmakers' protests and punishments over gun control emphasize the reality that Americans have incompatible preferences in many areas of life. Somehow, we have to learn to live with one another. Decentralizing power is a better way forward than trying to jam one vision down the throats of the unwilling and dealing with the resulting new round of battles.
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"It has been presented in racial terms, since the ejected members are black."
Which is a vile characterization by the Democrats to cover the behavior of their representativs, that the Democrats would have had a cow over if a republican had pulled that stunt. With all the Democrat pearl clutching over January 6th, this makes it clear that they do not believe in any type of politcal decorum. The past two years has all been a cynical power play.
1. The ejected members are men, and the one that only just barely didn't get expelled is female. So, it's clearly anti-male sexism.
2. The ejected members doubled down on their rhetoric and antics, where as the other gave a begrudging, half-hearted apology, at least until after she passed the vote.
3. The past two years? Try twenty. Minimum.
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Can someone remind me of where Two Chiles referred to J6 as a "spat"? I can't seem to find that article.
"Spat" is at least a more accurate description for what actually happened that day than "insurrection."
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I agree, but it's important to hold the bastards to their own standards.
You don't seriously believe that this was unplanned. They worked this out ahead of time:
- If nobody objected, they could show that they dominated the legislature and characterize their opponents as fringe and cowardly.
- If anybody objected, they would characterize their opponents as racist and accuse them of reinstituting Jim Crow. Even better if Republicans would expel them.
Either way, they win.
Republicans need to figure out how to deal with this kind of crap.
Republicans need to figure out how to deal with this kind of crap.
The big mistake they actually made here was that enough votes flipped to keep the fat Karen in office, when in fact she should have been the first one expelled, followed by the BLM stereotypes (the clip mashup of Jones in particular morphing from Carlton to Reverend Wright was particularly hilarious). The main way to deal with it is to not take the Dems and their press enablers arguments at face value, and frame them as wanting to have total authority over anyone who doesn't go along with their political agenda, up to and including support of political violence.
Build your own media!
Republicans chose to kick the black men out, republicans chose to keep the white Karen in. Nobody made them do that, they did it themselves.
If they were smart, they would have booted all three and negated the racial / sexual bias arguments in one fell swoop. They shot themselves in the foot, nobody did it to them.
She only passed by one vote. Were all of those votes just Republicans? I haven’t found an article that mentions if it was a straight party split.
They did figure it out and handled it PROPERLY. There are rules of decor and they were not followed. In fact those involved attempted to take over the House. They should have been fined a year salary as well.
I think that the left is forgetting that when one makes certain kinds of political actions, they must pay the price when they violate rules. This was true in 1963 and it is true today. The left ha just been getting away with it for so long they figured there re no such thing as consequences.
Right? Dr. King was prepared to go to jail and these fucking pussies are bitching about losing their ruling class privileges.
Democrat insurrectionists were dealt with. I am sure Democrats would have not done anything had Republicans done something similar. Totes.
I am sure Democrats would have not done anything had Republicans done something similar.
I can only imaging the histrionics they would have engaged in if, say, Marjorie Taylor-Greene, Josh Hawley, and Matt Gaetz (to pick 3 at random) had gone out and joined the J6 protestors.
One wants to jam freedom down your throat, the other wants to jam moonbattery down your throat. Both sides!
But freedom is racist!
No, freedom is [even worse] slavery.
Oregon GOP lawmaker ousted over state Capitol breach.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/oregon-gop-legislator-ousted-over-state-capitol-breach
Democrats had no problem ejecting a Republican for similar behavior.
It wasn't even similar behavior, he just wasn't mindful when he used an alternate exit.
Also, after expelling him, they criminally prosecuted him on top of that.
He clearly saw the people standing outside and did nothing to prevent them from coming in when he left. He didn’t even close the door behind himself.
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1644406578378858503
Video of him in the act!
Neither did Republicans, as it turned out.
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Strange that only one turned into a national story, steaming pile of lefty shit.
Flip those positions when it comes to another hot-button issue: abortion.
What an oblique way to impugn rural hicks by saying "Your human right to defend yourself from murder, up to and including the end of murdering assailants, begins when we say it does." Kinda makes it seem like your notion of a human right to self-defense isn't sovereign or self-evident but derived from your own supreme authority.
Riddle me this.
Why does the same side that says that ther police habitually hunts down and guns down unarmed Black men, the same side that wants to defund the police, the same side that wants decarceration, the same side that keeps saying that the criminal justice system, is systemically racist...
...is the same side that wants stricter gun con trol laws which will be enforced by these very same police in this very same system?
They don't want to become a victim of the monster they created?
They think laws are magic.
Because they're fucking morons.
Because they're socialists who want to tear down the principles this nation was built on. And because they're fucking morons and they think laws are magic.
Because their plan is to actually run the state police, and selectively enforce laws based on political ideology. That’s why their side is mostly allowed to commit political violence with impunity, and why Antifarts always run squealing to the police when someone hits back at them.
Pro choice on everything.
I choose to murder my annoying neighbor.
If he has one of those we support signs in his yard, justifiable
I kinda want to make a countersign.
"I'm this house, we believe...
In the precepts of science at all times and not just when they are politically convenient.
That no person is illegal, but their presence in certain places certainly can be.
That Black Lives Matter, even in the womb."
Etc.
Not that I'd ever put one up, given that it would just be a retard magnet.
“I’m good peepp who believes in the current approved thing!”
I fully support abortion up to the 203rd trimester.
So?
Don't let me stop you.
The drama in Tennessee over lawmakers expelled from the legislature for protesting in favor of gun restrictions on the floor of the House
They were expelled for merely protesting?! Why, that seems like an unforgivable abuse of power. I can’t believe that even the GOP would stoop to removing legislators who merely exercised their constitutionally protect rights to protest peacefully. Clearly the only problem here is that Republicans are trying to shut down dissent. I can’t believe we live in a country where one party is exercising excessive power to punish people who did literally nothing wrong whatsoever.
Shorter version: How dare you criticize the GOP? The other side is so much worse!
The other side IS much worse?
next time add //sarc to your post
While deaths from the virus itself was absolutely a factor in the decline [of urban population]
No, not really. Also, didn't the 'smart' liberals who live in cities all get the vaccine and mask everywhere? How is it possible there were any deaths at all with such safe and effective measures?
Did anyone you know die from COVID? I've known people who died from all sorts of things, from misadventure to cancer, but not the modern plague.
One of my dad's former friends from 20 years ago may have died from or with Covid. I've met him when I was a kid, but I wouldn't describe him as 'someone I know', personally.
That's as close as I got.
Sure. And I know plenty of people who have died from climate change, systemic racism, and the hole in the ozone layer.
I'm serious. I'm sure most if not all of us can name someone we knew who died from heart disease or cancer, but how many can do the same regarding COVID? It's difficult to claim that it caused a decline in the population when few people can claim to have lost someone from it.
I can actually name three. They belonged to an organization to which I also belong. Note: all three were over 75 years of age, and one was in pretty poor health even before Covid.
Aside from a number of hospital patients, I personally knew 2; an older relative who had lot of other health issues [after listening to Rogan's interview with Michael Osterholm in November 2019, I called him to warn that this virus had his name all over it] and a friend who was an RN without significant health problems [no vaccine, dies of stroke while hospitalized with COVID].
Initially it was a truly viable threat, and I saw people from 40 and up die from it but over the past 18 months it seems to have mutated into something between the common COLD and the flu.
Of course any number of people who died from any number of causes, who also had COVID, were coded as COVID deaths.
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“Initially it was a truly viable threat, and I saw people from 40 and up die from it but over the past 18 months it seems to have mutated into something between the common COLD and the flu.”
Indeed. I have known at least ten folks, all in the high-risk category, who have contracted Covid in (after having taken the vaccine). And while the vaccine certainly didn’t live up to what it was supposed to do, it does seem to be a very effective “therapy.” Not only did they all survive the infection, not one of them was even hospitalized — including two were well into their 80’s. How much is "mutation" vs the "vaccination efficacy," of course, we may never know precisely.
My understanding of the vaccine is that, unlike vaccines that stop you from getting sick but are no help if you get sick, it doesn't stop you from getting sick but helps if you do get sick. That's because we've got two types of immunity. One that stops you from getting sick, and one that fights stuff off if you do get sick. Traditional vaccines stimulate the former, while the new ones (which have been in the works for several decades and really aren't that new) stimulate the latter. End result is that it doesn't stop you from getting sick, but if you do get sick you don't go to the hospital. So it's working exactly as expected.
This seems to be the case. I guess we need to re-define "vaccine."
I wasn't aware that there were two levels of immunity until I learned how the vaccine works. It's something that stimulates the immune system, which makes it a vaccine to me.
It’s something that stimulates the immune system, which makes it a vaccine to me.
Unfortunately, and per the retardation of your own oxymoronic retcon, this isn't a vaccine. Seriously, this is a Ben Stiller-level "You can milk anything with nipples."-level of socially-awkward comedic stupidity except you aren't anywhere near his level of stupidity. At least the people drinking aquarium cleaner have the excuse that they're stupid people following their stupid conception of stupid advice. You, OTOH, give every impression of actively working to be stupid.
I would have been shocked if you had explained what was wrong with what I said instead of launching into some practiced insults.
Sarc: don’t other therapies “stimulate the immune system”? If that is the case, I’m Not sure why the definition of vaccine had to be changed (it already was if I remember 2021 correctly).
Sarc: don’t other therapies “stimulate the immune system”? If that is the case, I’m Not sure why the definition of vaccine had to be changed (it already was if I remember 2021 correctly).
Non-therapies stimulate the immune system. The pathogens themselves stimulate the immune system even to the point of death. The definition is inaccurate, virtually all definitions are. As long as there is a background of good faith and common (as in shared between the patient and the administrator of the vaccine, not necessarily in the case that everyone has to be an immunologist) sense, it's not really a problem. Lacking good faith and common sense, the definition becomes meaningless and can even be used to generate greater bad faith and dispel common sense. There might be a case to be had that in some cases, such as policing, common sense is illusory or even harmful and should be opposed or questioned, but done openly and straightforwardly. Otherwise, every definition of a word has equal validity and all the bad versions of anarchy can and do ensue.
This is, on several points, a counterfactual retcon bordering on magical thinking and demonstrative of a failure of even a HS-level understanding of biology or immunology known for the last hundred or so years.
Not entirely true. Yes, there are two types of immune responses, but it is not true that traditional or mRNA vaccines only stimulate one. The traditional flu vaccine, for example, will help to prevent infection, but if you get it anyway, it's not as severe. No vaccine is 100% at preventing infection. The first mRNA COVID vaccine was based on the original COVID strain. By the time it was released we had Beta, which was close enough that the vaccine did a decent job preventing infection. Then shortly after it was released, we had Delta, which was different enough that it didn't prevent infection as well. The vaccine still produces antibodies, but Omicron is a lot better at evading them. So other mRNA vaccines will probably start out as effective at preventing infection, and then could lose effectiveness at prevention or not, depending on how fast the virus mutates and what type of mutations they have.
Yes, there are two types of immune responses, but it is not true that traditional or mRNA vaccines only stimulate one.
This is a failure of conceptualization, arguably on the part of the student or troll. It's like saying there are two types of energy systems in the US: green and fossil. Really, there are green systems that rely directly on fossil (hydrogen), "green" systems that predate the notion of "green" (hydro), a myriad of fossil systems, and some others, like nuclear, that are completely ignored for expedience.
Similarly, there are several types of immunity that overlap. Innate and responsive, primary and secondary, and some that don't neatly fit into any category or fit into all, all of which work as derivatives of the larger system. That is to say, exposure with to cowpox, even with innate immunity can and does confer innate and secondary immunity to smallpox.
The method is like taking a car, stripping out everything except the essential components to the motor and cooling system and insisting we need to redefine what constitutes a car or a furnace. Most of us would plainly recognize it as just being stupid but, apparently, not sarc.
The traditional flu vaccine, for example, will help to prevent infection, but if you get it anyway, it’s not as severe.
I’m pretty sure that if they get it (flu shot) wrong it does nothing. Even the slightest mutation makes it useless. At least that’s what I’ve always been told until I recently saw Fauci on CNN saying otherwise, and he’s not known for being honest so…
Whereas the mRNA vaccine is less specific, making it more effective against mutations.
I'm not a doctor, nor do I pretend to be one on tv. I've done a bit of research into this, and that's what I concluded.
So if they made an mRNA vaccine for influenza, it wouldn't stop you from getting sick. But if you did get sick your body would have a head start in fighting it off so you'd be less sick for less time. When they make the current flu vaccine they gamble on three strains. If none of them are prevalent, the vaccine is completely worthless.
Seems pretty accurate, from what I know of the subject (which isn't much).
The only person I know who supposedly died from COVID was a co-worker, but who knows if he actually died from COVID or sepsis from a tube being shoved down his throat for too long. My former boss also got sick and nearly died from it, but she was also extremely overweight and was going to get hammered by it, anyway.
Everyone in my family caught it, but it was basically a bad flu that went away after about 4-5 days of fevers and a cough. The people I knew who did catch it had symptoms that ranged from ones like ours, to losing a sense of taste that you saw crop up in others.
The actual death count is suspicious, anyway, because so many people were counted as COVID deaths simply because they had the virus in their system when they died.
I personally knew two. They both had serious preexisting health problems but those problems were largely under control. But for covid, they would likely still be alive today.
That said, I also know three who died of complications of the lockdowns (including one suicide) without ever contracting the disease itself. But for the lockdowns, they would also likely still be alive today.
My wife's aunt, who was in a nursing home and must have been somewhere between 85 and 95.
Remember, most progressives have the emotional maturity of children. Death is just an abstraction, but the fear of death can be used to manipulate the realities that progressives believe.
The problem is not that some people want authority to control others and impose some idealistic vision. The problem is that some people want to be controlled in order to have a place in that vision.
Freedom means asking permission and obeying commands.
I don't buy this argument. The problem seems to be that the majority of people want a government role that supports their own behaviors / biases. If you're a pro-choice socialist, you'll want complete freedom for abortion but limit economic freedoms on "the rich." If you're a pro-gun Christian, you'll most likely want complete freedom on guns but restrict freedoms that go against "Christian values" like drugs or abortion.
The problem is that people are not really for freedom. Freedom means accepting people's choices to do things that you find objectionable if they don't encroach on someone else's rights. The vast majority of people whether right or left won't accept this view of freedom.
"The problem is that people are not really for freedom. Freedom means accepting people’s choices to do things that you find objectionable if they don’t encroach on someone else’s rights. The vast majority of people whether right or left won’t accept this view of freedom."
Well-put.
"Vast majority" is 95% or even more who reject libertarian principles. We've done a really crappy job of selling said principles, maybe because we over-estimated the number of folks who would be receptive?
"We’ve done a really crappy job of selling said principles, maybe because we over-estimated the number of folks who would be receptive?"
Ya think? Folks tend to be pretty "conservative." In this case, "conservative" is defined as having to do with holding fairly closely with those morals and mores with which they grew up. Somebody doing something they would never consider doing is, well, sort of "unnatural," and therefore looked upon with disdain, which creates resistance.
Anyone who seeks emotional support and moral guidance from others submits to the collective in one way or another. And many become dependent on that authority, and will likely be happier when told what to do (and think).
I disagree. The vast majority of people who let their lives revolve around politics won't accept that view of freedom but I believe there remains a much larger silent group that just want to be left alone and are willing to leave everyone else alone, too.
The challenge is not "selling libertarian principles" - the challenge is rallying people to put those principles into words and actions in the face of loud-mouthed but minority objections.
"I disagree. The vast majority of people who let their lives revolve around politics won’t accept that view of freedom but I believe there remains a much larger silent group that just want to be left alone and are willing to leave everyone else alone, too."
I would like to believe that. Really. And a little voice in my head tells me you might be right. But then, I tend to be skeptical. With "both sides" (at least on the fringes), being rather rank and noisy it can be hard to hear the more quiet folks.
People don't want to be controlled. But more than half of the country is dependent on government handouts. They lack the skills to live independently They can't afford to vote for small government because they literally would end up homeless and destitute.
But it is evident that many people who are dependent on the government are in favor of social issues that benefit their own lifestyles. Whether it's criminal justice reform, legalization of marijuana, or abortion rights... these are concepts are commonly supported by low income people.
It's not that they don't have some support for freedom or even champion small government concepts (like localized legalization of MJ). Again, it's that they want government to justify their own lifestyles. So they're for some social freedoms as outlined above, but against economic freedom because they need high taxes on "the rich" to support their lifestyle.
You don't understand at all what's going on.
Democratic voters are people who are government dependent: welfare recipients, social security recipients, disability recipients, drug addicts, government employees, academics, students, etc., not low income people.
And "criminal justice reform, legalization of marijuana, or abortion rights" don't benefit anybody; those policies are a way in which Democrats create more government dependence to increase their voter base. Voters don't vote for those policies, they tolerate them.
The left doesn't give a f*ck about "social freedoms", other than as a way of undermining democracy and creating dependence on government. Once in power, all those "social freedoms" go out the window.
Democrats don't tax the rich, they tax the upper middle class. And they don't do that for the money (they can just print as much as they want), they do it to hurt and destroy their political opponents. And it plays well with their voters because it appeals to their greed and envy.
Enter exhibit Amendment X.
Government is PROVEN guilty beyond any reasonable doubt.
Part of me wishes for a true urban-rural separation, including trade barriers. Then we can see how much food, energy, and manufactured goods (including distribution and delivery) are worth, and what the urban areas can provide in exchange.
Cities may not grow their own food and draw their power from plants placed away from populations centers, but tax revenues from the cities are what subsidize the highways, the schools, the hospitals, the public safety services, the power infrastructure, the crop and flood insurance, the disaster relief, etc., etc., etc. If cities just paid for services rendered, rural areas and everything people value about rural life would collapse on itself.
Well this is bullshit. The urban centers often take and markup rural goods. Most rural areas have better maintained roads and volunteer fire. They have better water usage as well.
Oh wait, you're one of those idiots who claims highways are rural properties and not ever used by urban residents to travel, so those dollars count as rural spending. Got it.
And never used to deliver the things from the country to the cities. Oi.
It's SimonP; pretty much guaranteed to be lefty lies.
+++
I think that's called "inter-dependency." We all rely on the skills and talents -- from farmers and carpenters to factory workers to engineers etc. etc. etc. -- to sustain and improve our lives.
Interdependency used to be the case when cities provided manufacturing, trade, and education.
They don't do any of that anymore.
You mean that Boeing and Toyota and Caterpillar and Deere aren't assembled in cities anymore? While it is true that modern manufacturing does allow for smaller factories with fewer workers, and for many parts to be made in relatively small plants, it still, by and large, requires rail transport. Locomotives are not made in small towns. Neither are 737's or cargo ships. And most folks still live near where they work. Is it possible, in the future, to have "cities" mostly devoid of people, who all live in the "burbs" and all manufacturing is done by machines? Sure. But we aren't there yet, and won't be for some time.
That is correct, in the sense of a "city" as a densely populated area. You cannot have that kind of large scale manufacturing in a densely populated area: traffic and infrastructure doesn't permit it, and real estate is too expensive.
The majority of Toyota's US facilities are in towns with 34000 or fewer inhabitants, the rest are outside what people would consider "the city". The majority of Boeing's US facilities are in suburbs with less than 120000 inhabitants. And none of those facilities are where most of the manufacturing happens: most of that happens overseas.
And the only reason these plants are located within the legal sphere of "cities" is because of government rules, unions, and government handouts. Rationally, they would all be overseas or in the country.
And the only reason these plants are located within the legal sphere of “cities” is because of government rules, unions, and government handouts.
Yeah. It's the same duplicitous bullshit where, when it's expedient to dismiss, it's in the middle of nowhere and, when it's expedient to claim, it's got more than 5,000 people in a relatively arbitrarily large area, so it counts as a city.
Poured the footers at the local Toyota plant in college, my brother worked at Cat, our Uncle and a couple of classmates between us worked at Chrysler. All of us walk into pretty much anywhere in any major city, even in flyover country, and we're considered country hicks.
"That is correct, in the sense of a “city” as a densely populated area."
I guess it depends on how one defines "city." I grew up in the SF Bay Area. Most definitely a "city." Lots and lots of manufacturing too. On the other hand, I have lived in towns with a population of under 2,000 souls... a couple well under that. From my perspective, a "city" is anything over about 30-40 thousand. I have lived in those size areas, as well. They most definitely aren't "the country."
Toyota and Caterpillar
it still, by and large, requires rail transport
Have you worked at Toyota or Cat? Know anyone who did? Do you know the relative rates of freight transport distributed between truck, rail, sea, and air? Because it seems like you don’t know dick and are trying to pretend like you do.
No, they are (mostly) not. The image of urban factory complexes surrounded by dense housing might have been true 100 years ago but not any more. Big factory and other industrial complexes are being built where land is cheap. And meanwhile, urbanistas push back on anything industrial.
"No, they are (mostly) not. The image of urban factory complexes surrounded by dense housing might have been true 100 years ago but not any more."
Not entirely disagreeing. But, when the "residential areas," located ten to twenty miles away, well within modern commuting distance, which often provide labor and other services and support to such factories grow to seventy-thousand souls or more, have their own hospitals, police forces, and likely some small-scale manufacturing, they aren't "towns," or "the country." At least by my definition.
Suburban sprawl has blurred the lines between city and country
Politely disagree. "Revenues" flowing from urban to rural areas are cited as a payoff for the biggest single threat to urban life continuing to help maintain an otherwise untenable urban center lifestyle. Taking Manhattan as an extreme example, someone estimated that people there would start dying within about three days (depending on the season) if the water, electricity and communications from outside were cut off suddenly. One of my relatives died in Manhattan several years ago during a city maintenance strike because the ambulance couldn't get to her apartment. The corrupt city government can just barely maintain the aging critical infrastructure as it is, let alone cope with a real emergency. If a 72,000 person per square mile island got into a real dust-up with red counties totally surrounding it, you know who would lose ... and so do they.
They sure as shit don't act like they know it.
Can you say, "whistling past the graveyard?"
"Tax revenues from the cities" are an accounting fiction these days.
American cities used to actually manufacture things and provide education and culture. At that point, they produced something of value to the country.
These days, they have largely stopped doing all of that. Instead, they have just privatized import tariffs and turned into places where people get indoctrinated into government ideology. None of that adds value to anybody. Most of the "tax revenue" they supposedly provide is fictional money created by the US government out of thin air.
Cities are useless Communist hellh*les is that what I read??
If you really think rural would "collapse on itself" if it didn't have urban communism; you just go right ahead and pull that plug. In fact; it would be the most patriotic thing you ever did in your worthless subsidized existence.
"We are form the City and we are here to help..."
Our drag-queen Commie-Education ------ NO THANKS.
Our BLM Steal your Land ----------------------- NO THANKS.
Our Healthcare THEFT system --------------- NO THANKS.
Our "Green Energy" THEFT system --------- NO THANKS.
Our "Public Safety" DICTATION system --- NO THANKS.
I'm afraid you have no idea what "helping" means.
Urban waste of various kinds also flows from cities to rural areas. What is that worth to the urban population? I have to suspect that is one reason why urban politicians are so anxious to keep control over state government. Gotta keep Chicago sewage flowing down the canal to the Illinois River so it can be someone else’s problem.
Yeah, sure. Let's try shutting off the exchange, including "subsidies", and see where the riots and zombies start.
"If cities just paid for services rendered, rural areas and everything people value about rural life would collapse on itself."
...because rural areas would not price things to maintain self sufficiency?
Turn off the power and cities turn into absolute nightmarish shitholes within an hour.
Wow.
Does anyone else notice that the left has been pandering the living daylights out of the rights Power-mad "abortion" subject??? The Nazi's are going to take over the country because of right-side "Unicorn" imaginations.
For those who are part of the slim majority who still support the old Republican Roe v Wade ruling it's a good for you. For the rest; GROW THE F'UP... You have no business meddling in the *PERSONAL* life affairs of others with Gov-Guns... Mind your own F'En business.
Abortion + transgender + racism + .... They seem to be pandering the living daylights out of a lot of things these days. Anything to gin up outrage among their followers.
It is the [WE](identity-gang) mob RULES party (i.e. Democrat/Democracy) in everything except "abortion".
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Actually, it's a good start. Can we oust the rest of the legislators?
Tennessee should be working on ousting all the liberal aliens that slithered in.
"But the confrontation also represents deep and growing disagreements between rural and urban Americans who hold divergent values, prefer very different laws, and inevitably clash in an excessively centralized country."
I recall when the "left" mistrusted government and wanted to resist it; now it seems to appeal to them as a means of enforcing their agendas on others. There will be no easy solution here, other than refusing to cooperate with them, whatever that might entail. I am concerned about the current efforts to make our military "woke" in that it would make it a lot more likely that it could be used against its own citizens.
But at the same time much less likely to be effective in the role!
And conveniently, Tapioca Joe has been shipping all the munitions they might otherwise use to Ukraine.
I recall when the “left” mistrusted government and wanted to resist it; now it seems to appeal to them as a means of enforcing their agendas on others. ... I am concerned about the current efforts to make our military “woke” in that it would make it a lot more likely that it could be used against its own citizens.
That was before they completed their "long march" through the institutions. The only one left for them to take over is the military, and as you point out they're working on that right now. And yes, the ultimate end game of wokifying the military is so that they'll "just follow orders" when told to turn their guns on their own citizens. Especially if the people they're ordered to kill are all "EVUL RIGHT WING EXTREMISTS RETHUGLIKKKA-NAZIS" or some shit.
Academia, media, entertainment, corporations...yes, I believe you are correct on that assessment in that the military is the current target.
And yes, the ultimate end game of wokifying the military is so that they’ll “just follow orders” when told to turn their guns on their own citizens.
I give this about a 50/50 between getting them to "just follow orders" and becoming ineffective to the point that foreign military forces get involved, 18th Century-style.
In the long run it won't make any difference with 40 million heavily armed Veterans and Guardsmen in control of armories all over the nation who were not trained in the new recently-woke military. If history is useful for demonstrating any basic principles, it would be that no central military force has ever been successful at overcoming a determined, popular military resistance.
"In fact, parts of rural America are thriving, even as other parts decline; just as parts of urban America continue to lose population and face economic decline as other parts comeback," Richard Florida and Karen M. King cautioned in a 2019 University of Toronto paper even before Covid-19 reset assumptions.
Da fuck do the Kanuks know?
They elected Premier Blackface ...
Hoo boy! Richard Florida, who convinced every podunk town to have more Bohemians, gays, and diversity and the world will beat a path to your door.
Jamming things down the throats of the unwilling is pretty much what government is for.
Once upon a time it was for ensuring every Individual Liberty and Justice.
Imagine if we could decentralize power all the way down to the household level?
That’s crazy talk.
(And, good to see you again Leo)
Says the guy who raged at a rural school board removing books with graphic sexual books because it didn't conform to his urban standards. Lol.
I have yet to see you ever push back against a liberal federal policy.
I love the idea, but I've pretty much given up on it as anything other than an idealized philosophical position. It's basically esoteric physics, and we need something more akin to practical engineering.
This species just isn't ready for ethical anarchism. Unfortunately.
The idea of representative democracy and "representation per capita" would seem to have an appeal to even the most basic person. I don't often hear the discussion framed that way, but saying that you have more representative power in the state legislature, city council, or other local government seems like it would be appealing to people who believe in representative democracy. That necessitates reducing the power of the federal government.
We'll never get to the point where we agree on government only at the level of the household, but the concept applies as you go further down in scale. But, someone with a voice larger than Leo Kovalensky II needs to make that pitch along those terms. I'm just not hearing it in terms of any mainstream politics these days.
Hush, you'll draw kirklands.
~~ unwilling culture warriors are my favorite type of collateral damage.
There, FTFY.
You're mistaken if you think it is just for progressives. There's a reason conservatives are so pro- law enforcement agencies.
Look no further than the war on drugs if you need a more concrete example. The back the blue crowd are the first to protect the police in a shooting in a no-knock raid where someone simply had possession of some chemicals that the conservatives think are icky. That's about as big government as it gets.
Law enforcement isn't "jamming down" things people's throats.
The war on drugs does impact 99% of Americans.
The issue isn't whether they are "icky", the issue is that taxpayers are forced to subsidize the consequences of people doing drugs. And if you think that progressives or leftists tolerate drug use, you're sadly mistaken. Under progressive government, drug use will destroy your future social credit score faster than spitting in the president's face. You'll simply be forced to self-incarcerate.
Drug legalization is a short term leftist strategy to get fools like you to vote for them, nothing more.
There’s a reason conservatives are so pro- law enforcement agencies.
To be fair though, a lot of "conservatives" are coming around to the fact that, at least at the federal level, law enforcement agencies are not their friends. Just last week several commenters here took ENB (I think) to task for equating some conservatives wanting to defund the FBI with wanting to defund local police. As if the feds and local enforcement are somehow the same.
On the other hand, while lefties want to "defund" local police and punish individual local cops for violating individuals' rights, they don't seem to mind federal agencies killing unarmed people in pursuance of policies that they, the lefties, approve of. Remember the resistance of people like Pelosi, Schumer and Biden to any investigation of the killing of the unarmed Vicki Weaver by the feds.
The 1960s wants its authoritarian conservative meme back.
The war on drugs has been a huge bipartisan failure.
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If "we" could have decentralized power "we" would have a long time ago - or never let central power accumulate in the first place. There's nothing in that for power-loving politicians or their constituents who don't WANT to mind their own business. The power lobby WANTS to impose their views on everyone, and they don't see polarization and increased strife as a problem to be solved. They see centralized authority as a tool to be used to line up support for their point of view.
Sounds about right.
+10000000... One of the best, well worded comment I've read in a long time.
What it represents is a bunch of radical leftists using dishonest tactics to manipulate public opinion in their favor: they behave outrageously, face the consequences, and then groundlessly claim "racism" and "Jim Crow".
If by "divergent values", you mean that this is totalitarian, manipulative anti-democratic radical assholes vs regular Americans and deliberative government by the people, you are correct. Otherwise, you missed what this was all about.
>>Decentralizing power is better than trying to jam one vision down the throats of the unwilling.
the entire ruling class disagrees.
Decentralizing power is better than trying to jam one vision down the throats of the unwilling.
Something something state legislatures overriding local zoning rules.
I would suggest Our Patch Work Nation by Dante Chinni and James Gimpel Ph.D. We are not just a nation of rural and urban but rather a quilt of different communities types that are increasingly at odds. We finds ourselves saying they don't listen to us so we will not listen to them. Much of this I blame on power politics which derives greater power from dividing rather than unifying. I also see age dividing us. The two expelled lawmakers were black, but more importantly they were young. Rural America is older than urban America and this trend is likely to continue.
They were also insurrectionists.
Rural vs. urban. How could this resolve?
One side has poorly educated, roundly bigoted, economically inadequate, gullible and superstitious, disaffected residents of can't-keep-up communities with poor (and worsening) amenities (health care, education, culture), declining industries, and the affliction of bright flight.
The other side has educated and skilled, modern, accomplished, reasoning, mainstream residents of communities with our strongest research and teaching institutions, excellent amenities, strong economies, and the benefits of immigration and being on the winning side of bright flight.
This is a toughie. Sounds like the choice one might encounter at the Pool and Chicken.
(Don't miss the drumstick trick about 30 seconds in. And for those of you rooting for the drawling hayseed, there is plenty of bad news)
One side has poorly educated, roundly bigoted, economically inadequate, gullible and superstitious, disaffected residents of can’t-keep-up communities with poor (and worsening) amenities (health care, education, culture), declining industries, and the affliction of bright flight.
Yes, they're the ones who just elected Brandon Johnson mayor of Chicago.
If we use, "being on the side that benefits from immigration" as the metric, Martha's Vineyard is a group of poorly educated, bigoted, economically inadequate, gullible and superstitious, disaffected residents.
Teachers are not that bright. Let's be honest about it..they just aren't
"education" is a nebulous term. Most college graduates in say "education," liberal arts, social sciences are not well educated, most are employed in the public sector directly or indirectly. These are the folks who are attacking liberty. As for the "burbs"..once you get the white woman who desperately want a trans kid to prove how woke they are out of the picture, the burbs are republican.
Best solution is a national divorce along county lines..counties the can be contiguously touching can join the side they like.
I think the "spat" illustrates a fascist / non-fascist divide.
(In case you're wondering, the fascists are the ones leading a mob disrupting the Legislature.)
Decentralized power can work. But the real problem is that the parties competing for power do not really have competing visions for what to do with that power. They simply do not compete in the same elections. Cities have a monopoly of D power. Rural a monopoly of R power. No third parties choose to compete anywhere.
Maybe that would change if localities were able to secede from states that are controlled by the other. But absent that, I don't see how decentralizing will lead to anything beyond just even more unconstrained monopoly of power.
The cities of CA are taking residents.
You fail to recognize that the conquer and consume party isn't interested in places already conquered and consumed. They want to graze other people's grass for ?free? and a pony?
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