Waco Offers New Insights From ATF Agents
Historian Jeff Guinn's account focuses on the ATF's oft-overlooked fiasco in the 1993 affair rather than the FBI's widely reported involvement.

Waco: David Koresh, the Branch Davidians, and a Legacy of Rage, by Jeff Guinn, Simon & Schuster, 400 pages, $29.99
Jeff Guinn is a good popular historian. That is not intended as faint praise: He takes interesting topics of real cultural importance—Jonestown, Bonnie and Clyde, Charles Manson—and writes credible and well-researched accounts of them. His new, very readable book on the Waco affair of 1993 is no exception.
As we mark the siege's 30th anniversary, Waco: David Koresh, the Branch Davidians, and a Legacy of Rage is an essential addition to any collection of books addressing that incident, and it is particularly good on the workings of federal law enforcement. That still leaves room to debate whether Guinn situates the whole affair properly in the context of the time.
The basic story is well known, although virtually every word in any summary would be contested by at least some commentators. In February 1993, agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) launched a massive raid on the "compound" of an apocalyptic-minded sect called the Branch Davidians, who were based at the Mount Carmel Center near Waco, Texas. The Davidians resisted the assault and effectively drove off the federal agents, who were promptly replaced by the FBI. A siege lasted until April 19, when the FBI stormed the Davidian residence. A fire broke out in the building. It is heavily disputed whether those flames arose from a Davidian desire for mass suicide or from the unintentional effects of the gas canisters used by the federal agents.
In all, 82 Davidians, mainly women and children, died during the whole encounter, as did four ATF agents. Depending on one's perspective, this was an appalling case of mass cult suicide, a hideous massacre of a peaceful minority religious sect, or a screaming example of bureaucratic incompetence and miscommunication on an epic scale.
Adding to the long-familiar account, Guinn offers some significant new material, especially from ATF personnel involved in the disastrous first assault on Mount Carmel. That ATF side of the story constitutes about a third of the finished book. This is important because most accounts pass rapidly over the initial ATF fiasco before focusing on a day-by-day narrative of the lengthy FBI involvement.
Guinn gives the reader an excellent sense of what it must have felt like being in the ATF ranks during this operation, and we observe the evolving mess in something like real time. We witness the decision making process, with all its flaws. We come to understand that the ATF had a vital political agenda in generating dramatic media coverage of a heroic assault on a cult/terrorist/gunrunning/drug making fortress of evil (feel free to choose your rationale). Basically, the agency was facing yet another attempt to close it down and merge it with some other federal office, and it had to justify its existence. Footage of shackled cultists and seized weaponry would serve that purpose well.
Two basic questions emerge at this stage of the incident. The first involves the necessity for a military assault. The Mount Carmel "cultists" had excellent relations with local Texas law enforcement, and the group almost certainly would have been open to a straightforward warrant search for the rumored drugs, illicitly adapted guns, or other contraband, none of which actually existed. ("Nothing like that here, officer! Care for some ice cream?") Horrified Davidians made desperate phone calls to the local sheriff's office during the ATF onslaught, seeking urgent assistance against what arguably was an illegal federal use of armed force.
It is equally baffling why the ATF agents proceeded with the attack when they knew that the Davidians were forewarned. If nothing else, Guinn's Waco supplies a valuable contribution to the burgeoning literature on military and paramilitary blunders.
Guinn does not say much about the cultural context of the era, but that would have been helpful. The 1980s and early '90s were marked by a number of raging social and moral panics in the United States, variously involving drug syndicates and evil cults. In 1993, for example, we were at the height of the panic over Satanic ritual abuse, so any invocation of words like cult and compound automatically carried a very rich freight for the average news consumer.
No less important, for a television audience thoroughly immersed in images of Jonestown and poisoned Kool-Aid, the language of cults offered a powerful hint of potential mass suicide. Those expectations proved useful in the aftermath of the catastrophic fire. The Justice Department plunged wholeheartedly into generating and defending the suicide interpretation, to the exclusion of any other view.
Guinn himself presents several possible readings of the final outcome, but he clearly leans toward some form of the suicide theory, which I personally find untenable. Reasonably, he stays away from the florid range of conspiracy literature surrounding the disaster, but he might have paid more attention to William Gazecki's 1997 documentary Waco: The Rules of Engagement. It makes a convincing case that rash FBI actions caused the fire, however unintentionally.
That film is also very good on the FBI besiegers' macho and militaristic attitudes and their unconcealed desire to get revenge for the insults that the Davidians had inflicted on fellow federal agents. If something like the Waco siege happened today, we would be much more likely to hear it framed in terms of police brutality and racial oppression, and indeed of Black Lives Mattering. Many of the Davidian "cultists" who perished were black. The group tried to present this element of the story to the wider world by prominently flying a banner proclaiming "Rodney King, We Understand!" At the time, that racial angle attracted virtually no notice in news coverage.
The press's role is critical to understanding the Waco story, and Guinn really could have said more here. Television and print media alike enthusiastically pushed those images of ruthless cult fanaticism, which offered a cultural framing that supported the government's grimmest and most diabolical interpretations of the episode. Notably absent from such accounts were any criticisms of the federal agencies. While such media analysis does not fit Guinn's narrative purposes, they really are vital to understanding the politics of the story as it developed.
In the immediate aftermath of the first shootout, Time offered a double image of Davidian leader David Koresh ("whose heavily armed sect gunned down federal agents") alongside Omar Abdel-Rahman, the Al Qaeda–linked leader of the first World Trade Center attack, which had occurred only two days before. Time averred that both men showed what went wrong "when believers embrace the dark side of faith." These themes were reinforced two weeks later, when an anti-abortion activist murdered a doctor who performed abortions in Pensacola, Florida.
In its various forms, it seemed, religious fanaticism was rampant in the United States. Still more potent visuals followed the final April fire. Time's shocking cover was frankly propagandistic. It featured a laughing Koresh superimposed on the burning compound and included a biblical subhead: "His name was Death, and Hell followed with him." People, another mass-circulation magazine, reported from "Inside the Waco Cult," with its "Evil Messiah," a pedophile who led his fanatical disciples to tragedy. Cartoons depicted Koresh alongside Abdel-Rahman and (inevitably) with a ghostly Jim Jones, who offers Koresh a Kool-Aid. The uncritical acceptance of the mass suicide story made it all but impossible for critics of federal actions to make their case without being denounced as conspiracy nuts.
Guinn ends his book with a consideration of Waco's contributions to driving the militia movement that became such a potent national force in the mid-1990s. He is undoubtedly correct on his basic point about the "legacy of rage," but I would disagree with him about the genealogy of this phenomenon. As Guinn notes, Timothy McVeigh was appalled at news of the Waco fire, and two years later, to the day, he perpetrated the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. That linkage seems clear enough, but another view is possible.
Throughout the 1980s, multiple neo-Nazi and other far-right groups had been active in the United States, and McVeigh had contacts with several, including a group based at Oklahoma's Elohim City. Another former resident of Elohim City was Richard Wayne Snell, who murdered a police officer and was executed on the very day of the Oklahoma bombing. Meanwhile, any suggested links between the Oklahoma City bombers and the rising militia movement are extremely slim, to the point of scarcely visible. But from a media perspective, the simple Waco/Oklahoma City/militia connection makes for a more dramatic narrative.
Anyone interested in the violent fringes of American religious history should read Guinn's Waco. But they should be ready to range further for a fuller account.
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The ATF should be eliminated . Along with the DEA and many others.
+10000; What business does the 'Feds' (i.e. Union of States) have being involved in this in the first place? Should be everyone's first question.
I am no fanboy of the ATF but historically the Whiskey Rebelion was significant in the federal government expanding it's power over the objection of some part of the population. Almost from the beginning the feds were involved in regulating alcohol; not that I am in favor of it just that there is a long history of it.
Agreed, though I'd put TSA at the front of the list.
What? The feds acted like a bunch of Nazi storm troopers and killed women and children? This happened during the Trump administration, right?
Clinton, but to be fair to Clinton, it had started during the Bush administration.
Right; that is like saying that 9/11 started during the Clinton administration while he was diddling an intern in the Oval Office.
No way anything is going to be allowed to stick to a Clinton, if MSM can help it.
No mention of the faith of statism. Good propaganda!
86 the ATF
Janet Reno ordered 82 executions at Waco and Bubba signed off on it.
If something like the Waco siege happened today, we would be much more likely to hear it framed in terms of police brutality and racial oppression…
I could not disagree more. If you look at the incidents used to frame the conversations on brutality and oppression today, they are the absolutely poorest levers. The reason Rosa Parks was the face of the movement in the 1960’s is because people wanted positive change. Trayvon Martin, George Floyd and Michael Brown are the face of the brutality and oppression movement today, not Eric Garner, Philando Castile, Tamir Rice and Sandra Bland. People seeking power and control have no use for positive change, they want to feed their movement’s impotent anger. The conflagration at Mount Carmel was wholly satisfying to them.
Trayvon Martin was clearly the aggressor in that situation. He was in the process ofkilling his quarry when he hap[ejed accross his victim's handgun. which said victim had NOT brought into te situation In the tussle for controlof the gun somehow the trigger was pressedand it went off, killing the REAL aggressor.
Don't forget the illegal criinalstunt the corrupt prosecutor pulled.. he presented a wiman as a witness claiming she was involved in the original incident. It came out after trial that she was a total put-onm fraud, perjuror, as was the proscutor who primed her and presented her as she was not. That lawyer/prosecutor SHOULD have been sentnced to the same punichment he sought for Mr. Zimmerman. Corrupt curts? One of the most blatant examples ever.
Are you referring to the “girlfriend” that couldn’t read “her own” cursive writing and testified that Trayvon got home safe, made a phone call, then headed _back_ to beat Zimmerman. If the prosecutors thought that would help their case, they were clearly delusional.
But no matter how sketchy this witness was, it matched the most likely reconstruction of Zimmerman's and Trayvon's movements from the map and the 911 transcript - and that showed Zimmerman was defending himself.
>>this was an appalling case of mass cult suicide, a hideous massacre of a peaceful minority religious sect, or a screaming example of bureaucratic incompetence and miscommunication on an epic scale.
two out of three ain't bad.
Thank you Meat Loaf.
If you ever find yourself near Waco, (and why would you), I highly recommend going to see the sight of Mount Carmel. It is worth the side trip.
if headed south from Dallas stop in West at the Czech Shop. delicious everything.
Oops. "site"
Anything in the book about how Janet Reno was a raging bitch with a history of abusing power and convicting innocent people?
I found No More Wacos by Dave Kopel quite informative.
The thing is, events like Ruby Ridge and Waco were pretty much an inevitable consequence of the federal crusade for gun control. Gun control laws are VERY hard to enforce, particularly since basically nobody who owns guns feels any particular moral obligation to cooperate with their enforcement, knowing that they're unconstitutional in the first place. But also because they're victimless crimes, no way for the feds to find out those laws are being violated.
Rather like the war on drugs, only worse because the knowledge that the Constitution is being violated is more widespread.
The law's pressure is a function of likelihood of being caught, and consequences if you are caught. As the former was very low, the latter had to be elevated to atrocity levels to compensate.
Remember kids, when the US government says it wants to protect the children, it believes burning them alive is protection.
What this summary also skips over is that the cause of the fire could not be determined because the FBI and the Justice Department bulldozed the entire crime scene without any credible forensics examination and immediately rushed to prosecute the few survivors. It's almost as if they didn't WANT to know! Who could ever have guessed that the FBI would want to cover up their mass murder?
I was in Texas when the Waco debacle unfolded. The FBI definitely screwed up at the end of the standoff but they were handed a steaming pile of horse manure by the ATF. The ATF budget was up for debate in Congress and they wanted a big flashy raid to wave in front of the politicians. It immediately went sideways, they handed it to the FBI and walked away. The FBI botched the conclusion when it used tanks against a plywood structure using candles and kerosene lamps for light, and was shocked that it went up in flames. A Cub Scout with a fire making merit badge could have seen that coming. The ATF could have arrested David Koresh any morning when he jogged alone on rural roads but they wanted to make a splash - just like the FBI with the Mara Lago raid except with lots of dead kids.
2.3.23. TITLE- The people in USA need to wake up. Acres of jouranism wont solve the problems. The reform must start with your neighbours.REASON SITE. FROM UK. 2.3.23. No not opinion its sworn statements of witnessed reality and truth.. No this is not 'off subject' its world wide problem not confined to USA. The human beings failure to change over 1000s yrs is behind the Waco scam. Its also behind the US Embassy offering us violence.We now and then put comments on here. we realise its a waste of time because the public will forget the whole thing within hours then pursue some more journalist bait' however fueled by a growing anger re that public shallowness and paranoid dissociation we would still advise the people of US to consider what we found goin on in UK cos its not much different to US. Heres extract from 1000pp gathered whilst looking for help for victims in Cent London for 12 yrs then elsewhere. You in US and elsewhere are failing to grasp that the solution is not journalism but action taken by the public to erase corruption and selfishness which is an epidemic.See below-
INDICTMENT OF THE HM COURT. PRISON. PARLIAMENT. CPS. BAR COUNCIL. LOCAL GOVT. MEDIA. POLICE. HOME OFFICE. HEALTH. CHARITY. EDUCATION JUDICIARY. ELECTORAL. UNIVERSITY SCAM.
The HM Court System, which offered to kill us, has now admitted corruption. They have persuaded a Patsy to state this- Nothing Can Be Done About The 'Justice Secretary'. Thats an admission about accepting establishment manslaughter. Wheres Art six gone? Can anyone suggest how so many highly paid people can be devoid of conscience. Is it the drugs.We will see of course what Justice Secretaries constituents think of that.Heres a statement by Local Govt- We don't care About The public We only Care About The Councillors So F-Off'. heres more- 'The Public Are Not Affected By Decisions Made By Cent Govt.' And more- 'We Talk To a TV Pundit But Dont Have Time For Time for The Public'.
Today 3.5.16 Found out that the failure to reply by the giant Southern Health is a cover up. They are involved with a Charity but the name of it is erased from all info. They have done that to
prevent us exposing it. We had asked Southern Health to provide name of one Mental Health Expert. they failed to do that. The Charity is Mal funded by among others the drug companiesand Camelot Lottery, behind that is as woman who is on the board at Manchester university which acts as a PR organization for the NHS and the GMC and A Judge who is involved with the House Commons hence no replies from MPs.. its where the M-h deception is hatched helped by
the Manchester Evening News which is owned by Trinity Mirror who wont respond. and the idea or intention is, it keeps the Health System protected. They are also like Age UK (part of that University). involved in drugging the elderly. We also suspect the whole thing is assoc with Police and Hants County Council. That would explain the Police attacks we are getting because of the financial scandal.. its corruption on a scale not imaginable 20 yrs ago. propping all this up is around five Law Universities and many others pretending to do M-h research which is in fact a drug marketing scheme backed by drug companies like Pfiizer and others who ares in league with Utrecht University in Holland and 17 Universities in UK. The key corrupt M-H Universities in UK are Bristol, Manchester Anglia. Notts others Exeter (Cameron visits it) Southern Health has branches all over South so earnings s isparamount. As of today no response has been recd from the little known Queens representatives in Hants .Nigel Atkinson who's address is listed as Serle's House Gar St. Winchester, He was asked to provide contact details for the 30 or so 'deputy's he harbours. He was asked why he had not noticed what's going on throughout the area he is supposed to monitor.NO REPLY
The uk police have said, after knocking the lunch plate off a dying man's lap (the most effective MH therapist in UK) that if we picked up the food we would be arrested. They added that religions and Local Govt councils want us silenced. They added that nothing that we ever wrote (1000PP evidence advised by BBC-'hide it abroad' would ever be read by Police They also said the evidence must never be read by public.We had to manhandle them off this land. A few weeks later pictures of the same police appeared within the website of a gigantic college near here. Complaints made to them got no reply. We know./knew about 200 people in BBC TV/RADIO but we were told to Hide The Documents Abroad. Ch4 TV told us Too Much Evidence.
EEC Office Statements.
It was the Euro Parl Office Cent London who told us that nothing can be done about corruptMEPs and that the EEC is about earnings and trade not people
There was re a stabbing at the giant Hosp whose clients were coming to us in desperation. That's the place where when we complained about the state of the clients the Psych said-Competence in Mental Health Has No Value In other words she killed people. this was confirmed by the staff who said the cover ups were conducted by Local Press. Police. HM Coroners at Horseferry Road SW1 etc and the local press Newsquest (High Wycombe Head Office) and Dimbleby. plus of course Courts. They were protecting their jobs. Although we were working on clients from that Hosp, if we went near the place the police would offer violence. Saville child molester was welcome there. he was no threat to the mngt
We were told by the Health system that the clients were they were 'incurable' They needed tween three and six hours work. One of them was a dancer at Covent gdn she had been going for help to the NHS and private systems, the result was we had to break the door open as she was lying semi conscious on a settee, her Doctor bf had abandoned here. We spent three hours on her and she suddenly got up went to a cupboard and tipped about six bottles drink down the sink. She went back to work. Another client had recd 22 yrs of Health system abuse and needed three hours. They had told him he was 'Psychotic' and that he could be killed the buried in the grounds cos the public thought he was ill and therefore would not interfere.We were told by NHS that they had no one with our skills and that we had to accept £160.000. Within two months the system cut off comms and phones hung up. We were told not to do the work because we were affecting jobs within the system We then found out there was a scheme to use vulnerable people as cheap labour. We also found out that the Private Med insurance firms had a policy of using incompetent clinicians to appease the Govt but, it took us ten yrs to find out that behind the scam was 17 universities aligned with drug companies. We began to experience Police attacks and death threats. Our cars had windows smashed and they sent funeral services round. We circumvented it by pretending to be religious. This convinced the police that we were corrupt like them which meant that we would not 'blab re the deaths caused there. We went to a public meeting at the Hosp and found a Councillor sitting on the board. he knew nothing about M-H so was ideal as a committee member. We were very alarmed because they sat there whispering. We then began to experience Police attacks.
That will have to do for now cos our lives are in danger. We do not have firearms. We only have pick axe handles. my family came here to escape certain death after hiding from Soviets and 3rd Reich. We came with two suitcases and 80 yrs old granma. We did not know English language. We were washing up in Hotels and tasking scraps food home. had we known that we would be forced into poverty in UK we would not have come here.
The indictment? 20-30000 avoid deaths over 40 yrs The Queens Coroner Cent London was one of a handful of people who broke ranks to agree with what we know..No we cant network any texts because the entire media has banned it and Facebook and Twiiter are part of that. They are corrupt. Dont just dosomething sit there. What we are finding is mirror image Germany 1920-1945 and that incl the Universties and Students Unions. No member of HM Parliament will respond.
disputed whether those flames arose from a Davidian desire for mass suicide or from the unintentional effects of the gas canisters used by the federal agents.
No amount of such alledged "desire" n the side of the Davidians could have lit up the ordinalry air inside that building. The Feds vlunteered to supply the flamable element. They HAD to have known tose gas grenades would do that....... precisely what they are DESIGNED to do. So I ain't buying this flimsy escape ramp for the Feds. They KNEW EXACTLY what would happen. And this was a feature not a surprise bug.
2.3.23.REASON SITE. FROM UK. 2.3.23. No not opinion its sworn statements of witnessed reality and truth.. No this is not 'off subject' its world wide problem not confined to USA. The human beings failure to change over 1000s yrs is behind the Waco scam. Its also behind the US Embassy offering us violence.We now and then put comments on here. we realise its a waste of time because the public will forget the whole thing within hours then pursue some more journalist bait' however fueled by a growing anger re that public shallowness and paranoid dissociation we would still advise the people of US to consider what we found goin on in UK cos its not much different to US. Heres extract from 1000pp gathered whilst looking for help for victims in Cent London for 12 yrs then elsewhere. You in US and elsewhere are failing to grasp that the solution is not journalism but action taken by the public to erase corruption and selfishness which is an epidemic.See below-
INDICTMENT OF THE HM COURT. PRISON. PARLIAMENT. CPS. BAR COUNCIL. LOCAL GOVT. MEDIA. POLICE. HOME OFFICE. HEALTH. CHARITY. EDUCATION JUDICIARY. ELECTORAL. UNIVERSITY SCAM.
The HM Court System, which offered to kill us, has now admitted corruption. They have persuaded a Patsy to state this- Nothing Can Be Done About The 'Justice Secretary'. Thats an admission about accepting establishment manslaughter. Wheres Art six gone? Can anyone suggest how so many highly paid people can be devoid of conscience. Is it the drugs.We will see of course what Justice Secretaries constituents think of that.Heres a statement by Local Govt- We don't care About The public We only Care About The Councillors So F-Off'. heres more- 'The Public Are Not Affected By Decisions Made By Cent Govt.' And more- 'We Talk To a TV Pundit But Dont Have Time For Time for The Public'.
Today 3.5.16 Found out that the failure to reply by the giant Southern Health is a cover up. They are involved with a Charity but the name of it is erased from all info. They have done that to
prevent us exposing it. We had asked Southern Health to provide name of one Mental Health Expert. they failed to do that. The Charity is Mal funded by among others the drug companiesand Camelot Lottery, behind that is as woman who is on the board at Manchester university which acts as a PR organization for the NHS and the GMC and A Judge who is involved with the House Commons hence no replies from MPs.. its where the M-h deception is hatched helped by
the Manchester Evening News which is owned by Trinity Mirror who wont respond. and the idea or intention is, it keeps the Health System protected. They are also like Age UK (part of that University). involved in drugging the elderly. We also suspect the whole thing is assoc with Police and Hants County Council. That would explain the Police attacks we are getting because of the financial scandal.. its corruption on a scale not imaginable 20 yrs ago. propping all this up is around five Law Universities and many others pretending to do M-h research which is in fact a drug marketing scheme backed by drug companies like Pfiizer and others who ares in league with Utrecht University in Holland and 17 Universities in UK. The key corrupt M-H Universities in UK are Bristol, Manchester Anglia. Notts others Exeter (Cameron visits it) Southern Health has branches all over South so earnings s isparamount. As of today no response has been recd from the little known Queens representatives in Hants .Nigel Atkinson who's address is listed as Serle's House Gar St. Winchester, He was asked to provide contact details for the 30 or so 'deputy's he harbours. He was asked why he had not noticed what's going on throughout the area he is supposed to monitor.NO REPLY
The uk police have said, after knocking the lunch plate off a dying man's lap (the most effective MH therapist in UK) that if we picked up the food we would be arrested. They added that religions and Local Govt councils want us silenced. They added that nothing that we ever wrote (1000PP evidence advised by BBC-'hide it abroad' would ever be read by Police They also said the evidence must never be read by public.We had to manhandle them off this land. A few weeks later pictures of the same police appeared within the website of a gigantic college near here. Complaints made to them got no reply. We know./knew about 200 people in BBC TV/RADIO but we were told to Hide The Documents Abroad. Ch4 TV told us Too Much Evidence.
EEC Office Statements.
It was the Euro Parl Office Cent London who told us that nothing can be done about corruptMEPs and that the EEC is about earnings and trade not people
There was re a stabbing at the giant Hosp whose clients were coming to us in desperation. That's the place where when we complained about the state of the clients the Psych said-Competence in Mental Health Has No Value In other words she killed people. this was confirmed by the staff who said the cover ups were conducted by Local Press. Police. HM Coroners at Horseferry Road SW1 etc and the local press Newsquest (High Wycombe Head Office) and Dimbleby. plus of course Courts. They were protecting their jobs. Although we were working on clients from that Hosp, if we went near the place the police would offer violence. Saville child molester was welcome there. he was no threat to the mngt
We were told by the Health system that the clients were they were 'incurable' They needed tween three and six hours work. One of them was a dancer at Covent gdn she had been going for help to the NHS and private systems, the result was we had to break the door open as she was lying semi conscious on a settee, her Doctor bf had abandoned here. We spent three hours on her and she suddenly got up went to a cupboard and tipped about six bottles drink down the sink. She went back to work. Another client had recd 22 yrs of Health system abuse and needed three hours. They had told him he was 'Psychotic' and that he could be killed the buried in the grounds cos the public thought he was ill and therefore would not interfere.We were told by NHS that they had no one with our skills and that we had to accept £160.000. Within two months the system cut off comms and phones hung up. We were told not to do the work because we were affecting jobs within the system We then found out there was a scheme to use vulnerable people as cheap labour. We also found out that the Private Med insurance firms had a policy of using incompetent clinicians to appease the Govt but, it took us ten yrs to find out that behind the scam was 17 universities aligned with drug companies. We began to experience Police attacks and death threats. Our cars had windows smashed and they sent funeral services round. We circumvented it by pretending to be religious. This convinced the police that we were corrupt like them which meant that we would not 'blab re the deaths caused there. We went to a public meeting at the Hosp and found a Councillor sitting on the board. he knew nothing about M-H so was ideal as a committee member. We were very alarmed because they sat there whispering. We then began to experience Police attacks.
That will have to do for now cos our lives are in danger. We do not have firearms. We only have pick axe handles. my family came here to escape certain death after hiding from Soviets and 3rd Reich. We came with two suitcases and 80 yrs old granma. We did not know English language. We were washing up in Hotels and tasking scraps food home. had we known that we would be forced into poverty in UK we would not have come here.
The indictment? 20-30000 avoid deaths over 40 yrs The Queens Coroner Cent London was one of a handful of people who broke ranks to agree with what we know..No we cant network any texts because the entire media has banned it and Facebook and Twiiter are part of that. They are corrupt. Dont just dosomething sit there. What we are finding is mirror image Germany 1920-1945 and that incl the Universties and Students Unions. No member of HM Parliament will respond.
2.3.23.REASON SITE. FROM UK. 2.3.23. No not opinion its sworn statements of witnessed reality and truth.. No this is not 'off subject' its world wide problem not confined to USA. The human beings failure to change over 1000s yrs is behind the Waco scam. Its also behind the US Embassy offering us violence.We now and then put comments on here. we realise its a waste of time because the public will forget the whole thing within hours then pursue some more journalist bait' however fueled by a growing anger re that public shallowness and paranoid dissociation we would still advise the people of US to consider what we found goin on in UK cos its not much different to US. Heres extract from 1000pp gathered whilst looking for help for victims in Cent London for 12 yrs then elsewhere. You in US and elsewhere are failing to grasp that the solution is not journalism but action taken by the public to erase corruption and selfishness which is an epidemic.See below-
INDICTMENT OF THE HM COURT. PRISON. PARLIAMENT. CPS. BAR COUNCIL. LOCAL GOVT. MEDIA. POLICE. HOME OFFICE. HEALTH. CHARITY. EDUCATION JUDICIARY. ELECTORAL. UNIVERSITY SCAM.
The HM Court System, which offered to kill us, has now admitted corruption. They have persuaded a Patsy to state this- Nothing Can Be Done About The 'Justice Secretary'. Thats an admission about accepting establishment manslaughter. Wheres Art six gone? Can anyone suggest how so many highly paid people can be devoid of conscience. Is it the drugs.We will see of course what Justice Secretaries constituents think of that.Heres a statement by Local Govt- We don't care About The public We only Care About The Councillors So F-Off'. heres more- 'The Public Are Not Affected By Decisions Made By Cent Govt.' And more- 'We Talk To a TV Pundit But Dont Have Time For Time for The Public'.
Today 3.5.16 Found out that the failure to reply by the giant Southern Health is a cover up. They are involved with a Charity but the name of it is erased from all info. They have done that to
prevent us exposing it. We had asked Southern Health to provide name of one Mental Health Expert. they failed to do that. The Charity is Mal funded by among others the drug companiesand Camelot Lottery, behind that is as woman who is on the board at Manchester university which acts as a PR organization for the NHS and the GMC and A Judge who is involved with the House Commons hence no replies from MPs.. its where the M-h deception is hatched helped by
the Manchester Evening News which is owned by Trinity Mirror who wont respond. and the idea or intention is, it keeps the Health System protected. They are also like Age UK (part of that University). involved in drugging the elderly. We also suspect the whole thing is assoc with Police and Hants County Council. That would explain the Police attacks we are getting because of the financial scandal.. its corruption on a scale not imaginable 20 yrs ago. propping all this up is around five Law Universities and many others pretending to do M-h research which is in fact a drug marketing scheme backed by drug companies like Pfiizer and others who ares in league with Utrecht University in Holland and 17 Universities in UK. The key corrupt M-H Universities in UK are Bristol, Manchester Anglia. Notts others Exeter (Cameron visits it) Southern Health has branches all over South so earnings s isparamount. As of today no response has been recd from the little known Queens representatives in Hants .Nigel Atkinson who's address is listed as Serle's House Gar St. Winchester, He was asked to provide contact details for the 30 or so 'deputy's he harbours. He was asked why he had not noticed what's going on throughout the area he is supposed to monitor.NO REPLY
The uk police have said, after knocking the lunch plate off a dying man's lap (the most effective MH therapist in UK) that if we picked up the food we would be arrested. They added that religions and Local Govt councils want us silenced. They added that nothing that we ever wrote (1000PP evidence advised by BBC-'hide it abroad' would ever be read by Police They also said the evidence must never be read by public.We had to manhandle them off this land. A few weeks later pictures of the same police appeared within the website of a gigantic college near here. Complaints made to them got no reply. We know./knew about 200 people in BBC TV/RADIO but we were told to Hide The Documents Abroad. Ch4 TV told us Too Much Evidence.
EEC Office Statements.
It was the Euro Parl Office Cent London who told us that nothing can be done about corruptMEPs and that the EEC is about earnings and trade not people
There was re a stabbing at the giant Hosp whose clients were coming to us in desperation. That's the place where when we complained about the state of the clients the Psych said-Competence in Mental Health Has No Value In other words she killed people. this was confirmed by the staff who said the cover ups were conducted by Local Press. Police. HM Coroners at Horseferry Road SW1 etc and the local press Newsquest (High Wycombe Head Office) and Dimbleby. plus of course Courts. They were protecting their jobs. Although we were working on clients from that Hosp, if we went near the place the police would offer violence. Saville child molester was welcome there. he was no threat to the mngt
We were told by the Health system that the clients were they were 'incurable' They needed tween three and six hours work. One of them was a dancer at Covent gdn she had been going for help to the NHS and private systems, the result was we had to break the door open as she was lying semi conscious on a settee, her Doctor bf had abandoned here. We spent three hours on her and she suddenly got up went to a cupboard and tipped about six bottles drink down the sink. She went back to work. Another client had recd 22 yrs of Health system abuse and needed three hours. They had told him he was 'Psychotic' and that he could be killed the buried in the grounds cos the public thought he was ill and therefore would not interfere.We were told by NHS that they had no one with our skills and that we had to accept £160.000. Within two months the system cut off comms and phones hung up. We were told not to do the work because we were affecting jobs within the system We then found out there was a scheme to use vulnerable people as cheap labour. We also found out that the Private Med insurance firms had a policy of using incompetent clinicians to appease the Govt but, it took us ten yrs to find out that behind the scam was 17 universities aligned with drug companies. We began to experience Police attacks and death threats. Our cars had windows smashed and they sent funeral services round. We circumvented it by pretending to be religious. This convinced the police that we were corrupt like them which meant that we would not 'blab re the deaths caused there. We went to a public meeting at the Hosp and found a Councillor sitting on the board. he knew nothing about M-H so was ideal as a committee member. We were very alarmed because they sat there whispering. We then began to experience Police attacks.
That will have to do for now cos our lives are in danger. We do not have firearms. We only have pick axe handles. my family came here to escape certain death after hiding from Soviets and 3rd Reich. We came with two suitcases and 80 yrs old granma. We did not know English language. We were washing up in Hotels and tasking scraps food home. had we known that we would be forced into poverty in UK we would not have come here.
The indictment? 20-30000 avoid deaths over 40 yrs The Queens Coroner Cent London was one of a handful of people who broke ranks to agree with what we know..No we cant network any texts because the entire media has banned it and Facebook and Twiiter are part of that. They are corrupt. Dont just dosomething sit there. What we are finding is mirror image Germany 1920-1945 and that incl the Universties and Students Unions. No member of HM Parliament will respond.
Nicht Guilty / JA ! See You Down The Wagner Concert?
The press tried the same bullshit in 2014 with the Cliven Bundy ranch standoff. The difference was the Bundy's could reach out for help and help arrived. Everyone but the Obama admin and its prog followers knew the feds were overreaching, and likely going to Waco/Ruby Ridge the Bundys.
I was somewhat involved in the Michigan Militia at the time. They were actually planning a rescue mission; They were going to gather nearby, and march in peacefully with cameras running, to document the evidence before the feds could do what they'd done at Ruby Ridge. The idea was that the feds wouldn't dare open fire on unarmed people with cameras rolling. (Personally, I thought they would, which is why I turned down the invitation to participate.)
I find it interesting that the fiery end came shortly before this rescue was supposed to come off. Maybe the feds got wind of it, and decided to end things before it could happen?
This was the key conflict which prevented a peaceful end: The Davidians knew that the only reason Weaver had gotten off was that the press had documented things before the feds moved in, so his lawyer could prove in court that the feds were committing a fraud on the court by introducing manipulated crime scene photos. The feds knew this, too.
So the Davidians' one absolute demand was to have third parties document the scene before the feds moved in, and the feds' one absolute demand was that this NOT happen.
I'm afraid there's a good chance your judgment was correct — too big a chance to take. The feds could massacre a crowd and say, with the media backing them up, "See? They're so bad we have to kill them." In other words, cop aggression would be used as evidence that they were justified, since why would they ever do such a thing unless they were?
And at that time, as it is to this day, "Michigan Militia" is enough in itself to cover for any federal wrong doing.