Ron DeSantis Wants To Rewrite Defamation Law
"The bill is an aggressive and blatantly unconstitutional attempt to rewrite defamation law in a manner that protects the powerful from criticism by journalists and the public," said one attorney.

A legislative ally of Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis introduced a bill in the Florida House on Tuesday that would remove many of the legal protections against defamation lawsuits established in the 1964 Supreme Court case New York Times v. Sullivan. The new bill is yet another attempt by DeSantis, an aggressive critic of defamation law, to curb First Amendment protections in Florida.
Introduced by Rep. Alex Andrade (R—Pensacola), the bill would make sweeping changes to the standards for pursuing a defamation claim against a public figure. The law would narrow the definition of a public figure by excluding persons whose notoriety arises solely from "defending himself or herself publicly against an accusation," giving an interview on a subject, public employment (other than elected or appointed office), or "a video, an image, or a statement uploaded on the Internet that has reached a broad audience."
"At the end of the day, it's our view in Florida that we want to be standing up for the little guy against some of these massive media conglomerates," DeSantis said in a February 7 roundtable event on the subject, adding that journalism "really chills, I think, people's willingness to want to participate" in public discussion.
DeSantis has strongly criticized New York Times v. Sullivan, a 1964 Supreme Court case establishing the actual malice standard for defamation claims against public figures. Following Sullivan, public officials could not successfully sue for libel or defamation without proving that the false statements made against them were made with "actual malice"—meaning "with knowledge that it was false or with reckless disregard of whether it was false or not."
Andrade's bill explicitly defies Sullivan by establishing that the "actual malice" standard will not be required to prove defamation "when the allegation does not relate to the reason for his or her public status." Further, the bill also significantly expands the circumstances under which a fact finder can infer actual malice, such as when an allegation is "inherently implausible" or "There are obvious reasons to doubt the veracity" of the allegation.
Another troubling provision of the bill says that "an allegation that the plaintiff has discriminated against another person or group because of their race, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity constitutes defamation per se." This means that when such an accusation is false, it will automatically be considered defamation. However, the bill also restricts how individuals can prove the truth of their claims, as claims of discrimination based on gender identity and sexual orientation cannot be verified by "citing plaintiff's constitutionally protected religious expression or beliefs," or their "scientific" beliefs.
The bill singles out journalists in particular. It removes existing protections of "journalist's privilege," which allows journalists, under most circumstances, to refuse to identify anonymous sources or disclose other information gained in newsgathering. The bill explicitly removes these privileges in the interest of legal defamation claims. Further, the bill would make using anonymous sources much more difficult. Not only would the bill assume that statements from anonymous sources are false in defamation proceedings, but simply using an anonymous source will be considered sufficient for actual malice. In cases where a journalist refuses to identify an anonymous source, the bill states that "plaintiffs need only prove that the defendant acted negligently."
The bill would face immediate legal challenges if passed and signed into law, which seems to be the point.
"There have been some in conservative circles, including Justice Thomas, who have wanted there to be a test case to revisit Times v. Sullivan," Joe Cohn, the legislative and policy director at the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, tells Reason. "And I think there are lawmakers out there that want to provide legislation that contradicts the existing case law as an invitation for courts to send that up the chain. And it's tremendously chilling of speech."
This bill is only the latest attempt from Gov. DeSantis to chill dissenting speech in Florida.
"The bill is an aggressive and blatantly unconstitutional attempt to rewrite defamation law in a manner that protects the powerful from criticism by journalists and the public," says Cohn. "And it really champions the rights of the powerful and public figures in particular as compared to the rights of ordinary people to raise questions and lodge criticisms."
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So Ronnie wants to turbocharge Fatass Donnie's War on the Press?
I guess it is good for GOP primary season.
You sad that Amber Alert became a thing?
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DeSantis is dangerous. Mostly because "he's looking out for us."
+1000000000... Glad to see other see that too.
Reason would be supporting the bill if it was from Biden, but anything from a Republican they will criticize.
“At the end of the day, it’s our view in Florida that we want to be standing up for the little guy against some of these massive media conglomerates,”
Reason hates the little guy, their main readers. Reason loves corruption (Biden), continual “untruths” (Biden), big government (Biden), government censorship (Biden), restrictive gun laws (Biden), foriegn proxy wars (Biden), and senseless or destructive government spending (Biden).
Reason blames all the governments ills on the GOP, though the Democrats have been in power now for over two year. Most of the blame they put on Trump, though he only was President 4 out of the last 14 years, being legally harassed, lied about and with a hostile Congress most of that time. 10 of the last 14 years the Democrats were in power and Obama and Biden had sycophant Congresses most of that time.
You have to wonder who Reason will support in the next election?
A geriatric cognitively impaired Democratic dictator wannabe that rules by Royal Decree (Executive order) to the point his own Speaker complained, or a liberty loving, freedom loving Republican?
I would bet they endorse Biden again, because he has done such a great job in Reason’s opinion so far!
What color is the sky on your planet? You're clearly not living on this one. Unless I just somehow overlooked all those articles where Reason praised spending and gun control...
As for "liberty loving, freedom loving Republican(s)", the only ones I've seen lately have either been marginalized or driven out of the party altogether. Given the degenerate state of the Democrats, it really shouldn't be hard for the GOP to offer an appealing alternative. And yet they somehow fail.
I agree. The Democrats are a laughing stock, the Republicans now a step below that. Not the party of my father, to be sure, and thus not the party of me.
What did Trump do that was a "war on the press", Shrike? Talk mean to them? Call them liars?
Obama and Biden tapped 20 Associated Press office phone lines and the homes and phones of reporters. Trump tweeted mean things.
Shrike: "iT waS a wAr".
+10000 Exactly; 2-Seconds of what Trumps E.O. really was reveals that it was Terms of Service must be honored despite Section 230.
Yet; Manipulation, deceitfulness and lying narratives is all the left sells these days.
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Another troubling provision of the bill says that "an allegation that the plaintiff has discriminated against another person or group because of their race, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity constitutes defamation per se." This means that when such an accusation is false, it will automatically be considered defamation.
I mean that's literally already enshrined in law in many places. There's a difference between defamation that you have to prove intent, and defamation per se where you simply can't attempt to level an accusation absent any proof.
The bill singles out journalists in particular. It removes existing protections of "journalist's privilege," which allows journalists, under most circumstances, to refuse to identify anonymous sources or disclose other information gained in newsgathering. The bill explicitly removes these privileges in the interest of legal defamation claims. Further, the bill would make using anonymous sources much more difficult. Not only would the bill assume that statements from anonymous sources are false in defamation proceedings, but simply using an anonymous source will be considered sufficient for actual malice. In cases where a journalist refuses to identify an anonymous source, the bill states that "plaintiffs need only prove that the defendant acted negligently."
I really don't think this is the travesty Reason seems to believe it is. If someone is actually lying about you and claims that they heard it from an anonymous source, that shouldn't be an irrefutable shield that prevents them from ever facing liability. If someone has been harmed, they deserve to have some possible civil remedy. I dislike creating a separate class of people called "journalists," who are shielded from the consequences of lying. Journalism is an action, taken by people who wish to report, and not a class of people.
No no. Journalists are a special protected class.
Addendum: I will add that I'm quite open minded on this because I'm a big fan of free speech. There are reasoned arguments to be made in favor of protecting the ability to share information, even if it's not 100% accurate. It would certainly be a travesty if we saw a slew of lawsuits against articles that were 98% accurate, but misstated inconsequential elements like the color of a vehicle or the type of weapon being used. I don't think this opens the door to anything like that, but I'm willing to be persuaded that there are significant free speech issues here I am overlooking.
Why would you ever treat Reason like they're arguing in good faith?
"I’m a big fan of free speech."
You forgot to include the asterisk saying "as long as there is no difference of opinion, speculation, or potential of being wrong involved".
It's not unreasonable to require the alleged injured party to prove that there was an intent to harm them, as opposed to assuming that forming a conclusion based on believable information is defamation unless otherwise proved.
One person's lie is another person's reasonable inference. If you want to go after someone for defaming you, prove they were intentionally trying to hurt you, not just telling people something you don't want to hear.
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"I mean that’s literally already enshrined in law in many places."
I thought about moving to Many Places, but it turns out you have to be more specific than that for a real estate agent to work with you.
Can you share which places have laws that allow a presumption of defamation for calling someone a racist?
"If someone is actually lying about you and claims that they heard it from an anonymous source"
Notice you don't have to prove they are lying about you. And sure, a free press that has sourced their articles is a terrible idea if they say mean things about people.
"If someone has been harmed, they deserve to have some possible civil remedy."
Rob Misek is a racist. In Florida, I would be subject to penalties for saying that if this law passes. Because the presumption is that it is a defamatory statement, I am now obligated to "prove" an opinion or face penalties. Apparently an opinion is about to become illegal in Florida if it touches on subjects that cultural conservatives don't like being accused of.
"I dislike creating a separate class of people called “journalists,” who are shielded from the consequences of lying."
Yes, we know you are hostile to a free press if they express anything thay isn't black-and-white. Actually, scratch that. You seem hostile to a free press, period.
"Journalism is an action, taken by people who wish to report, and not a class of people."
If only the Constitution didn't recognize the importance of a free press. If they could have just forced journalists to only write things that were 100%, provably true (so, not even the weather forecast) givernment officials could get going with their secret backroom deals that only have circumstantial evidence without fear of having their corruption exposed. What is the value in a free press, anyway?
"Rob Misek is a racist. In Florida, I would be subject to penalties for saying that if this law passes. Because the presumption is that it is a defamatory statement, I am now obligated to “prove” an opinion or face penalties.
Misek is indeed a racist, but the rest of that is not even remotely true.
Well, accusing someone of being a racist is, under this law, presumed to be defamatory. And Rob Misek thinks it is a reasonable assessment of facts that informs his opinion. Under this law I would be required to prove, legally, that I was accurate in calling him a racist, a very expensive proposition.
If you want to bring a lawsuit, the onus should be on you to prove your case.
Misek defines himself as a racist. He has no compunction against stating his antipathy to Jews.
And no. Accusing someone of being a racist is, under this law, isn't presumed to be defamatory.
"And no. Accusing someone of being a racist is, under this law, isn’t presumed to be defamatory."
A quote from the bill:
"an allegation that the plaintiff has discriminated against another person or group because of their race, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity constitutes defamation per se."
In legal terms, per se means inherently. So yes, that is exactly what the law says.
I actually have some sympathy for at least some of the proposed changes. I do agree that merely defending yourself from an accusation ought not to strip you of the private person status. Likewise, having a photo or video uploaded without your consent or participation seems like something that should not cost you your private person status.
Giving an interview, on the other hand, is putting yourself into the public eye. And far too many public employees need to be monitored for corruption. They should all lose their private person status as a condition of employment.
Narrowing the "actual malice" definition - I can't tell from just this description. I can see both sides of that argument. The devil will be in the details of how it's worded.
What bothers me about Sullivan is how it created two classes of citizen, public and private. Why should only public figures get added protection from defamation?
For the same reason journalist think they should be above everyone else.
It's actually the other way around. Public figures get less protection from defamation under Sullivan.
The bill above, by the way, increases the protections for public figures but still only partway toward the protections for private figures.
It is about time to add the Actual Malice Standard to All Defamation Cases across the board
Actual malice *and* actual damage.
Now explain why public personalities should have fewer protections than other people.
In my opinion, public officials should get less protections because the need to monitor them for corruption substantailly outweighs their right to avoid being discussed. If they don't like it, stay in the private sector.
Beyond that, when you choose to insert yourself into the public debate, you have inherently given up certain expectations of privacy. People are going to say mean things about you. You shouldn't be able shut down the debate by merely saying that the mean things are "defamation". If you don't like that, toughen up or keep your opinions to yourself.
I'm with you. I think some of the stuff sounds beneficial like some limiting of the public person designator. But man, I just can't get behind more and more laws to regulate speech.
Sullum seemed to defend lawsuits regarding defamation just this morning....
There was no “seemed” about it.
There's nothing wrong with saying "DeSantis is a racist because ...
Nor is there anything defamatory about it, especially if you have reasons for your position.
Then presenting proof of the accusation should be no problem at all.
Why should the onus (and legal costs) be on the person who expressed the opinion or conclusion that Ron DeSantis is a racist? I don't know if you are recognizing it, but your position is the opposite of free speech.
"Ron DeSantis is a racist because he ships Hispanic asylum seekers out of Florida because he hates them."
That statement is an opinion. Not even my opinion, since I don't think DeSantis is a racist, but it is an opinion that has been expressed by spme of his critics.
Today, anyone who believes this to be true can say it (or write it, or post it, or do a podcast about it, or write an op-ed about it). Freedom of speech and freedom of the press (either or both) protects opinion. In order for that opinion to be considered defamation, Ron DeSantis would have to prove it's untrue and that the person intended harm, not just that they had a different opinion about Ron DeSantis.
If this law passes, this will now be law:
“an allegation that the plaintiff has discriminated against another person or group because of their race, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity constitutes defamation per se.”
So saying Ron DeSantis is a racist who ships Hispanic people out of Florida because he hates them would now be defamation because the mere accusation of discrimination (a personal opinion) is now automatically defamation per se (per se, legally, means inherently).
Ron DeSantis doesn't have to prove anything. All he has to do is say, "He accused me of being a racist" and suddenly the speaker has to prove their opinion is pure fact or have damages assessed against them.
"presenting proof of the accusation"
There is no way to prove that someone is a racist who does racist things for racist reasons unless they say it out loud. Even then, they can make a mealy-mouthed, unconvincing moderate statement ("good people on both sides").
Then he can pretend that he is someone who some people see as racist who does things that some people see as racist for not-completely-provably racist reasons. But since accusations of discrimination are inherently defamatory, it is defamation.
And if you don't like using Ron DeSantis use Mr. Bob Dobalina, a bus driver who drove the migrants out of Florida. Same thing.
Anything that makes a stated opinion inherently defamatory or shifts the onus of proof from the accuser to the defendant (aka guilty until proven innocent) is wrong. It violates the First Amendment. And it is chilling to free speech and valid public criticism.
To be fair to the law in consideration, Desanits wouldn't be protected by the changes, but Dobalina would be.
And yes, that makes sense: Desantis is a public figure, and thus has limited ability to sue for defamation, while Dobalina is a private figure, and likely just doing a job he's being hired to do. I would lose no sleep over Dobalina being able to sue people who call him a racist, in no small part because calling him a racist can cost him his livelihood, and it doesn't contribute to the public discourse of the topic -- assuming, of course, there's nothing to back up the claim (and if there is, then there is no defamation, so this issue is moot).
But the problem is that speaking your opinion, whether it's a mainstream opinion or (arguably more importantly) if it's an unpopular or fringe belief, is free speech.
Just because someone says something doesn't make it true. Just because you don't like someone else's opinion of you doesn't make it defamatory.
IANAL, so this isn't a legal distinction, but to me if you don't like what someone says about you, too bad. I've had plenty of people say shitty, untrue things about me. Strong-willed people fon't always rub people the right way.
There have even been a couple occasions where someone badmouthing me cost me a speech or a clinic. But they said them (at least the two I know about) because they didn't like me. They weren't trying to make me lose a job. They weren't trying to hurt me, they just only saw the worst parts of me or didn't see the good parts (or both).
I wasn't defamed. I shouldn't be able to claim I was and force someone else to go through the cost of proving me wrong. The person who makes the accusation has to come with evidence. The burden is on the one making the accusation, not the one speaking their mind.
To me, it's like when someone cries racism. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But the onus is on the person claiming racial animus was used against them to prove it, not on the person being accused.
Malice and intent have to be a part of it, or people will end up getting sued because they said mean things about someone else and their choice will be to spend a crapload of money on lawyers to "prove" their opinion is "justified" (a highly subjective determination) or spend a crapload of mkney for the judgement against them.
Defamation is really, really hard to prove because it has to be. Otherwise it's a means to threaten people with financial costs to make them stop speaking their opinions in public.
Is that really what people want? To scare people into silence for fear of the costs associated with fighting a frivolous lawsuit? And if it's someone like a reporter, who says or writes things for a living, they would quickly be bankrupt defending unsubstantiated claims.
It's one thing when something said about someone is just hurtful -- but it's another when it destroys lives.
When we live in an era where a single unfounded accusation of racism can not only cost someone their job, but prevent them from finding another, then I think it's fair to question whether saying such a thing should be considered slander or libel.
While you can rile against libel and slander law all you want (and I am somewhat partial to the notion myself), I nonetheless cannot help but consider libel and slander law to be just, in and of itself, if damage can indeed be demonstrated. I could see why people wouldn't want to live in a society where you have to wait for a particular individual (or even institution) to needlessly destroy several lives, before we reach the conclusion that maybe we shouldn't trust that individual or institution.
What's more, all your examples rely on the assumption that you could sue for libel or slander on everything -- and that those lawsuits will always be treated seriously -- when, as you said, most of those examples don't have consequential damages as a result, then the lawsuit would be considered frivolous. (And then we get into the realm of "how do we prevent frivolous lawsuits?", which is a different rabbit hole altogether.)
All in all, though, I don't mind the idea of libel and slander law -- I don't particularly think it would be bad if, before publishing or saying something that could destroy someone's reputation, the person has to stop and ask "Is this really true? If not, would I be ready to bear the brunt of a lawsuit?".
There’s also another thing about the complaining about the “banning” you are doing.
How many of these “bans” — liberal or conservative — over the years, resulted in an author, or the owner of the books in question, being put in jail for their writing or ownership of the said “banned” book?
If the answer is 0 — and for the most part, it’s very close to that — then the book wasn’t really banned, was it? We’re merely discussing whether something is appropriate for a curriculum or a public library.
And considering the limited time, space, and money needed to stock a library, or put together a school curriculum, there’s necessarily going to be limits — and so long as my money is going into these institutions, I should get a say in what books are kept there, or forbidden.
And so long as I can’t keep you, personally, from owning such a work, even if I believe it has no place in the library or the school, then it isn’t banned.
(And if you have a problem with that, then maybe it’s time we stop public funding of schools and libraries, and only recognize private ones.)
Calling someone a Bigot is more Opinion than Statement of Fact
I don't think you and I read the same article. Sullum mentioned the defamation standards without commenting on whether they were good or bad. The main point of his article was to imply that Dobb's actions likely meet this standard.
Reason.com has reported, now, on the anti-freedom, pro-speech-control ways of Ron DeSatanTis... That CLEARLY means that Reason.com writers should be BLAMED for the thoughts and speeches of Ron DeSatanTis!!! Until the SCROTUS might EVER be able to say, "The speakers and the trigger-pullers, and NOT the reporters or repeaters about the facts thereof, shall be held accountable"!!!
Reason.com writers, be ye ON GUARD, I might decide to SUE you for reporting about THE WRITINGS AND SPEECHES OF OTHERS!!!
Ka-Ching, Ka-Ching, Ka-Ching, baby, here I scum-cum!!!!
(Now if only I can get S-230 OUT of my way, per the wishes of my fellow authoritarian assholes and greed-heads.)
Either contribute or fuck off, Troll.
"This bill is only the latest attempt from Gov. DeSantis to chill dissenting speech in Florida."
Uh...This appears to be complete bullshit. As far as I can tell, if you want to dissent against DeSantis, you are still free to do so by the reading of this bill, because it specifically EXCLUDES officials "elected or appointed office".
https://www.vox.com/recode/2021/7/1/22558980/florida-social-media-law-injunction-desantis
"Florida’s social media free speech law has been blocked for likely violating free speech laws
The Florida law prevented certain platforms from banning political candidates."
Ron DeSatanTis wanted Government Almighty to MANDATE that privately owned web sites make SPECIAL provisions for political candidates to TAKE OVER private web sites, and bloviate ALL day, EVERY day, to whatever length they wanted to!
Poor Precious Baby, Ron DeSatanTis got slapped down, and property rights are still hanging in there, by the skin of their teeth, against Marxist right-wing wrong-nuts, and their GREED and power-hunger!
“Vox” go jump in an Ohio lake.
I am not talking about the Social Media law. I am obviously talking about the defamation law at hand and whether or not it is an attempt to "chill dissenting speech."
I don't think the squirrel cares. It's got its canned comments/links and it's going to use them. Over and over again.
That was my initial reaction as well. However, to provide the benefit of the doubt, there's some other provisions in this bill that still apply to elected officials, such as the addition of "discriminating against another person or group because of their race, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity."
In good faith, you could argue that this limits the ability of a journalist to claim that DeSantis is anti-LGBT because he signed the Florida Parental Rights in Education Act, or that he hates black people because he canceled the African American Studies AP class. I think both of those are bullshit arguments but I don't think someone should be sued for making them.
If the context makes clear that you’re using “racist” (or “slaver”) under a specific meaning, then contest the issue under that meaning. If the accusation is that someone’s a racist in the sense of failing to acknowledge “white supremacy culture” and not supporting reprations, that would be one thing, and probably legal to accuse someone of since plenty of people can be shown to meet that amorphous definition. But if the accusation is that the person actually considers a race inferior or wishes to discriminate against them, then the accuser should need some actual evidence.
Likewise, if by “slaver” (as in “fuck off, slaver”) you mean someone who supports an authoritarian government policy or policies, then that’s different from saying someone actually trafficks in human beings.
It would depend on whether or not it is clear you are stating a opinion vs stating a fact
“I/some/many believe DeSantis is a racist because...” vs
“DeSantis is a racist because... ”
Well, we all know he loves using the force of government to punish companies who criticize him. Making it financially damaging to say mean things is par for the course.
The First Amendment is overrated.
P.S. the last sentence is sarcasm, for those who might wonder.
The ones before that are objectively true.
Excellent. Such privileges should never have been enacted into law by any state, and should be repealed in all 40 states that have them. Reporters are just citizens like any others.
A presumption I proposed long ago in this very site's comments. As truth remains an absolute defense in defamation cases, any person who publishes a defamatory lie should be held liable unless they can show they had reasonable grounds to believe it. If they are claiming they're repeating something from a source they refuse to reveal, they're refusing to show the court they had reasonable grounds to believe the lie they told.
"If they are claiming they’re repeating something from a source they refuse to reveal..."
Whistle-blowers hung out to dry!
Also this: I will say "I quoted a homeless bum living under the bridge, and he told me that his name was John Paul Jones. Or maybe it was Napoleon Bonaparte. I forget, I think... I may have been drunk that night, and there's no law against being drunk.
You're welcome to go look under the bridge at I-95 and Dead Skunk Holler Road; the bum might still be there. Butt I was reporting the FACT that this bum said, 'Ron DeSantanTis sucks my middle gonad'. I never said that; the bum did."
Only if they're liars, in which case, why should we care?
As I said, truth remains an absolute defense in defamation cases. A reporter sued for defamation for repeating an anonymous "whistelblower" can use discovery to compel the plaintiff to provide evidence. If, with that legal hunting license in hand, the reporter's attorneys can't manage to produce evidence enough to convince the jury that the claim is more likely true than not, only then does the issue of identity of the "whistleblower" even come up.
This publication really wants me to hate DeSantis and is doing a rather terrible job of presenting reasons for me to hate him. Typically, they report on something he's doing that I either feel completely neutral about, or else I find I'm quite in favor of it, despite their negative framing of the thing.
After seeing all the reveals of "anonymous sources" over the years that were supposed to be credible, but when made known (often of their own volition), proved to be two or three steps away from being even marginally critical, at this point, I'm convinced that "anonymous sources" are overrated.
What's to stop me from putting my own words in quotes, and say it's said from an anonymous source? If those words are defamation, I would certainly have incentive to refuse to reveal my "anonymous source" -- which happens to be me.
To further complicate matters, I can also see the case where the reporter wasn't defamatory, but the anonymous source was. Should the anonymous source be shielded from defamation suits, just because they talked through a journalist?
More unwarranted attacks on Republicans. When will Reason criticize Democrats? I don't see any blue state governors being insulted for no, no pun intended, reason. This is pathetic.
"This is pathetic."
Yes, actually.
sarc, you win the pony!
Not gonna lie, I’m too lazy to go and see if they have any Democrat governor hit pieces. Considering their fawning over Polis, I’m not sure.
There's certainly a lot of bad things written about Newsome.
"When will Reason Crictize Democrats"
https://reason.com/2023/01/25/biden-wants-schools-that-please-politicians-not-parents/
Some of the provisions of the law sound nice, though of course I can't say I like the whole thing, I'd have to look it over with more detail and with foreknowledge of how it's going to be applied.
I'm willing to guess that the criticisms are exaggerated.
Some parts to like (even before we get to questioning the whole public-figure doctrine):
-You're shouldn't be a public figure simply because you defend yourself against accusations.
-Calling someone a racist, etc., should be automatically deemed harmful to the victim; such an accusation should only be justified if the accusation is true, if false, make the accuser pay up.
-If you say your defamatory comment was in good faith because you used this totally reliable anonymous source, but you won't say who the source was, you should lose in most cases.
-
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Wow, a lying journalist lies about the topic of her article to defend her right to lie about and defame people without consequence. Fuck off you leftist cunt. Perhaps if if you and your cabal had done their job as advertised rather than foing whole hog into leftist partisan hackery you might have a point worth considering, as it stands go to hell.
"Speech is Violence"
That sounds very Woke of you
Given how many defamatory and blatantly untrue things Ron DeSantis says about people, he may want to be careful what he wishes for.
It's been 11 hrs and the examples you seemed to have in mind have still not been listed, Odd.
Lets start with calling teachers "groomers" for acknowledging the existence of gay and trans people.
Did he call teachers groomers for acknowledging their existence or because they were going full Mr. Garrison in the classroom?
For acknowledging their existence. Teachers aren't indoctrinating students into being gay or trans. Talking about gay and trans people isn't "sexual education" any more than talking about heyerosexual people. That's some weird delusion of cultural conservatives.
Even Catholics and Boy Scouts aren't indoctrinating kids into being gay and they have a long and documented history of covering for, enabling, and silencing the sexual abuse of minors in a coordinated and organized fashion. Teachers have never done that.
But demonizing teachers combined with banning books is a political winner with the R base, so guess what DeSantis did?
You say this as if there doesn't exist a Twitter account, called "Libs of TikTok", that documents via the words of the teachers themselves that yes, they are interested in indoctrinating kids into being gay or trans -- and doing so in such ways that it fits well within the definition of "grooming".
You're saying that conservatives want to "ban books" that they aren't allowed to read out loud in public school board meetings because of the pornographic nature of the material -- material that teachers and librarians, to this day -- heck, you are defending it, right here, right now, by insisting that keeping pornographic material out of the hands of children is "censorship" and "book banning"!
I'm tired of the gaslighting from people like you.
There is a difference between individuals behaving bsdly and organized efforts. There is no large-scale effort by teachers to "indoctrinate" kids into being gay.
If you think the bad behavior of a few should be projected onto the vast multitudes of people who haven't done anything wrong (and have no thought ir desire to do so), you are literally doing the same thing that every racist in the planet does, just with teachers and grooming instead of skin color and behavior or intelligence or criminality or excellence at sports or sexyal drive or any one of a thousand racist tropes bigots trot out.
Stereotyping is an intentional false narrative designed to marginalize an entire group based on the actions of a small minority. It is 8ntellectually lazy and completely inaccurate.
Legislation based on stereotyping is worse and basing it on a moral panic about "turning kids gay" (which even people of average intelligence recognized as false back in the 80s and 90s) is about as bad as a law can get.
"You’re saying that conservatives want to “ban books” that they aren’t allowed to read out loud in public school board meetings because of the pornographic nature of the material"
Toni Morrison, JK Rowling, Ray Bradbury, Harper Lee, and numerous other authors banned by conservatives aren't "pornograohic" writers. If you can find actual pornigraphy, go ahead and ban it. But The Bluest Eye isn't that. Stop gasliggting.
I have never and would never support or defend pornography in schools. You are accusing me of something I have never done.
"I’m tired of the gaslighting from people like you."
I'm not the one stereotyping all teachers based on a few videos on a random TikTok site, calling serious books like Black Boy or Beloved pornography, or pretending that anyone opposed to cultural conservatives' moral panics and biases are in favor of potnography or are grooming kids for sexual exploitation.
You are the one gaslighting.
First off, normal teachers who don't want to teach age-inappropriate subjects to children aren't troubled by being labeled "groomers", because they aren't the ones objecting to these laws.
Second, I don't particularly care what previous conservatives -- or liberals, for that matter, because they've had their own share of what should or should not be banned -- cared about over the decades. I care about the books that adults are forbidden from bringing up in public school board meetings, though.
"I have never and would never support or defend pornography in schools. You are accusing me of something I have never done." and yet you have also said "But demonizing teachers combined with banning books is a political winner with the R base, so guess what DeSantis did?" -- am I supposed to believe you're perfectly fine with the pornographic books in question, but you're not really in favor of pornography in schools? And you try to assuage my conscience by identifying books that aren't really the problem?
Ok, groomer. Gaslight away.
So, defamation is Nelson's strong suit, not DeSantis. Got it.
Not only Ron DeSantis and Clarence Thomas but many others have criticized the NYT v. Sullivan decision. But, you wouldn't know that from reading this article. For instance, see Richard Epstein, "Was New York Times v. Sullivan Wrong?"
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The Supreme Court was correct. INTENT must be established to make a punishable crime in grey areas.
Hey look, a comment section full of conservatives who want a government large enough to fight their culture wars for them.
Hey look, a retard.
Hey look, a commenter who pretends libtards aren’t using big government in their culture war RIGHT NOW.
Hopefully this law will spawn a case that gets to the S. Ct. and the utterly ridiculous and no where to be found in the US Constitution case of Times vs. Sullivan (which led to: famous football coaches must prove actual malice; non famous do not!) will be overturned. After Separate But Equal and Roe vs. Wade, it's probably the dumbest decision ever written.
So many things can be fixed by bringing back dueling - - - - - - - - - - -
So Reason is against a bill that would try to ensure news stories are truthful?
Defamation law already covers knowing lies. This bill wouldn't change that at all. It would, however, start worha presumption of guilt on the part of the spreaker and require them to prove otherwise.
Defamation law already covers knowing lies. This bill wouldn’t change that at all. It would, however, start with a presumption of guilt on the part of the speaker and require them to prove otherwise.
So it would require accusers to back up their accusations?
And you think this is wrong?
Under the current system, a group of like minded people can make up something --say a story that a presidential candidate is a foreign asset--and promulgate that story, knowing it's false, without a care in the world.
When it's finally exposed, they'll admit it in a place no one can see and then go on acting as if they proved something was true --like how it's normal for hundreds of thousands of unverifiable ballots to simply appear in the middle of the night.
And they'll destroy anyone who says otherwise
I'm curious: how many people are there who call Kyle Rittenhouse a murderer, even after his trial? Is that conclusion true, or is it defamatory? If it's defamatory, why shouldn't Rittenhouse be able to sue those who are peddling this lie?
“I’m curious: how many people are there who call OJ Simpson a murderer, even after his trial? Is that conclusion true, or is it defamatory? If it’s defamatory, why shouldn’t Simpson be able to sue those who are peddling this lie?”
Anyhow more seriously, a requirement for Defamation is if it's a False Statement of Fact. Calling people like Rittenhouse or Simpson Killers or even Murders alone leans more towards Opinion, however if the Statement was "They were Convicted Murderers" that's a Statement of Fact that can be Liable if it caused Actual Damages
When I took a journalism class in college, we spent a few weeks on the AP style guide discussing slander and libel, and the style guide made something perfectly clear: when you write an article about a case of law, you had better pepper your article with a lot of "allegedlies", because otherwise, if the Defendant goes through the process, and ends up being found "not guilty" (which, to avoid the possibility the "not" being accidentally dropped, should be reported as "found innocent") the reporter could be found on the wrong end of a libel or slander lawsuit -- and not only the wrong end, but the losing end as well.
OJ Simpson is a bad example, though, because he was and is a public figure going into the trial -- although the case should probably be made that, just because you're a "public figure" by virtue being famous at your job, as opposed to being in public office, then maybe you should be able to sue others for libel or slander -- but furthermore, in OJ's case, it's one thing to say "He was found innocent, but the evidence is strong that he really did commit that crime -- indeed, in the civil case, he was found responsible for those "wrongful deaths".
And I brought up Kyle Rittenhouse in no small part because anyone who is familiar with the case and with self defense law knew it was going to be open-and-shut self defense -- that the Prosecution was charging him for political purposes -- and that charges shouldn't have been brought up in the first place. And considering that Rittenhouse has had to go into hiding because of people who are still convinced he's a murderer, I'd have to say that that's pretty hefty damages Rittenhouse has suffered.
Reason is a clearly Pro-Libertarian News Outlet. Also a major Thinker that Libertarians often cite is Murray Rothbard who have this position that No One Owns a Property Right to Other's Thoughts and Opinions on Them so Therefore the Law Should Stay Out of matters of Someone's Reputation.
Rothbard did praise the precedent set by New York Times v. Sullivan, however he would prefer to go much further and Get Rid of Defamation Laws altogether
DeSantos is really digging into the fastest toolbox. With any luck the far right scammers and just flat out idiots aren't numerous enough to win elections. Put another way, I hope he's pandering to them out to be an insignificantly small electorate.
Recently Trump called DeSantis a Pedophile, and in a hilariously ironic twist, Trump made his case by citing a blatantly Anti-Trump Website. Wonder if that's a reason why DeSantis wants to change the Libel Laws...
Anyhow on a more serious note, seeing in this Digital Ages it's pretty easy for anyone to get notoriety, maybe it's about time we apply the Actual Malice standard to all defamation cases across the board
I'm not sure what part of this is supposed to be bad.
It leaves in place the heightened standard for public figures but restricts the definition of public figures in a way that makes a lot more sense than current case law.
And the anonymous source rules make sense. If someone makes false statements to a journalist and those statements are then published, the person they are about has been injured. The journalist, if sued, would have the choice between righting that wrong themselves or revealing who had lied to them (and that person could then be sued). In any event, once you know someone has lied to you, you shouldn't allow them to remain anonymous. Other journalists need to know not to trust them.
Ronny DeSantis is trying to appeal to the hard anti-gay, anti-transgender Christian right-wing who of course DO NOT represent all Christians. A new defamation bill that he supports in the Florida state legislature would deny ability of a defendant who is sued over statements that a plaintiff discriminated based on sexual orientation or gender by citing a plaintiff’s statements if constitutionally protected religious or scientific beliefs. This is all kinds of stupid. First of all because you have a right to believe and advocate something under the Constitution does not (nor should it mean) you can discriminate (legally or not) and than effectively ban (under threat of a lawsuit) a defendant or anyone else pointing out that yes you discriminated and yes it is proven you did so because you did so because you stated, wrote etc your religion supposedly tells you to discriminate. What this does is ban the truth if someone discriminated (and in the US the truth is an absolute defense to a defamation lawsuit) based on religion when it comes to gays/transgender (and ONLY those groups and not race, sex, religion etc, weird huh?) and the proof of that statement being true is a statement, writing or some kind of proof that is based on religion. So what that means is that truth does not matter, if it has a basis in religion, or strangely science.
I think the science part of the bill is to provide some kind of justification that they are not only defending religious, anti-gay discrimination. Of course scientific beliefs if they have any actual basis in reality (where religion doesn’t care about reality) requires actual scientific evidence. For example if you have a belief that the earth is flat that isn’t an actual scientific belief but the belief of someone who doesn’t know a damn thing about science. Of course the supporters of this bill will just respond with some stupid statement that those opposed to the bill are “woke” or whatever lazy cliche they can make, though the bill is unconstitutional, as a whole.
They're not journalists
“Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations” - Orwell