Brickbat: This Burns Me Up

Around 1.5 million English households use wood-burning heaters, stoves and fireplaces, and many of those homeowners could face fines and criminal charges under new rules adopted by the government. The government has reduced the amount of particulate matter wood-burning stoves and heaters are allowed to emit and given local governments the power to issue spot fines of up to £300 ($360 U.S.) to those whose chimneys emit too much. The new rules also allow local governments to pursue criminal charges against repeat offenders or those who do not pay their fines.

Comments

[Adans smith]

Chim Chimney Chim Chim Cher-ee if you burn wood your are gonna pay me. Bitch

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[Chumby]

A fine like that would be a son of a beech.

[TangoDelta]

The law is an ash.

[Chumby]

Regulators pine for more control even if it is not very poplar.

[perlmonger]

Good thing it never gets all that cold in England.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Wood burning Limeys are not reliant on governmen-controlled utilities and we can’t have that.

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[Davedave]

Utilities are not government controlled. Wood supply is a) taxed and b) limited by law, unless you live in the countryside and can pick up your own fuel, in which case these changes don’t apply to you anyway.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Utilities are not government controlled? What are you smoking, natural gas? Coal? Good old wood?

[Davedave]

No, utilities in the UK are not under government control. They were all privatised decades ago.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48284802

[Unicorn Abattoir]

Yeah. Totally not under government control:

The Office of Gas and Electricity Markets (Ofgem), supporting the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority (GEMA), is the government regulator for the electricity and downstream natural gas markets in Great Britain.[2] It was formed by the merger of the Office of Electricity Regulation (OFFER) and Office of Gas Supply (Ofgas).

[Davedave]

Your link doesn’t contradict that in any way. What does that have to do with government control? Do you think NHTSA safety ratings mean car manufacturers in the US are under government control?

[Unicorn Abattoir]

You’re being willfully stupid.

[perlmonger]

Yesyes hehe isis.

[Medulla Oblongata]

So the utility companies can just raise their rates any time they want?

[Davedave]

No. What’s the relevance? Price regulation is just one of many forms of regulation. It doesn’t mean utilities are under government control, as the tin foil hatter above claimed. He was just wrong.

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[Chumby]

The Jøtul Oslo emits 0.5 grams/hour. About 82% efficient.

The Morsø 7110 emits about 3 grams/hour. About 62% efficient.

A high efficiency stove likely will have a low particulate matter output.

[Davedave]

Yes, and a stove with low PM output is perfectly OK. It’s just the selfish bastards burning green wood in crappy stoves in cities who are the problem.

Do note that the health problems also affect the users, so it’s just a fucking stupid thing to do all round. Unless you are such a complete science-denier that you won’t even accept that breathing in wood smoke all the time is bad for you, it’s obvious that the significant amount of smoke – small, but not tiny – that blows around your house if you have a wood burner is going to be bad for you.

[Chumby]

Are there a lot of wood burners in cities?

One needs space to store (assuming city folk aren’t processing onsite, which required more space) and that is at a premium in urban areas. If the wood was not seasoned when purchased, that may require more space…and good sun with a breeze so another issue in a city. In a northern urban area where a lot of wood may need to be burned, ash disposal is also an issue.

A leaky setup and poor operation could put smoke indoors. People running a wood stove poorly are wasting their time and resources. Running other heating appliances poorly can have their own issues.

There was a stove shop in the UK I had followed. Late last year, the owner shared that unless one is processing their own wood (or getting it for free such as from a tree service) that in his area wood was more expensive to heat with than gas. He didn’t address the huge spike in electricity costs in regard to heating with that.

Heating with wood is a craft, hobby and lifestyle. Those that don’t make the commitment may not realize the full benefits.

[Davedave]

“Are there a lot of wood burners in cities?”

Yes, unfortunately it became a lifestyle/fashion thing over the last couple of decades. (I understand why, fires are pretty, burning logs is fun. But unfortunately not good for the air quality.)

The people using them aren’t chopping their own wood, they buy wood retail to burn. We’ve also had to regulate things to stop them buying and burning green wood, which gives you and idea of the degree of understanding these idiots have.

Very few people in the UK have electric heating, almost everyone uses gas. As your stove-shop owner noted, wood is more expensive. It really is just a lifestyle/fashion thing. Oh, and a relatively small bunch of rich idiot greenies thought it was a good plan because they weren’t using fossil fuels, but ignored the other problems – they’re the only ones who were actually relying on wood for heating, rather than having one or two stoves because they look nice.

As for whether it causes any problems: https://www.london.gov.uk/programmes-and-strategies/environment-and-climate-change/pollution-and-air-quality/guidance-wood-burning-london

There are roughly 4,000 deaths a year in London due to the kind of air pollution stoves contribute 20% of. So, say 800 deaths due to wood burners. (In reality it isn’t quite that simple.) And, of course, 10-100x that many people suffering debilitating long term ill-health.

[Chumby]

The shop is called Eco Fires located in Fleet.

I’m not challenging that metrotossers are being idiots but I would question government numbers and narrative.

There are suburban folks here that installed woodboilers for hydronic heating and hit water. Those units tend to smoke. Some smoke so much that one would think there was a structure fire.

My neck of the woods is about three people per square km. A bit different than London.

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[Davedave]

“My neck of the woods is about three people per square km. A bit different than London”

Yes, just a bit 🙂

It’s worth reiterating that outside big cities, you can do pretty much what you like in terms of wood burning. No-one cares about particulate emissions in areas with low population density because it just gets blown away by the wind.

That said, it’s worth noting that wood burners also pollute your living space, and so people using them can suffer respiratory issues as a result.

[Chumby]

I don’t notice any difference in dust or air quality between burning season and at other times. The stove is tight as is the flue piping.

[Davedave]

I don’t know enough to say whether the stat is an average including people who don’t know how to keep the stove door shut and the chimney working properly, or whether it’s just not at all noticeable but still not doing you any good. I suspect the latter, but given human stupidity I wouldn’t rule out the former.

[Chumby]

It seems odd. With an adequate draft (pipe diameter, number of bends, length and exhaust gas temp as variables), any leaks are into the exhaust piping system and not into the living space.

[Davedave]

Yes, with a properly working chimney it doesn’t seem like there would be many problems. But aero flows are funny things, so possibly there’s some sort of blowback pushing tiny amounts of smoke out. I was never interested enough to look it up, so I’m just speculating.

[Chumby]

Seems like a class jealousy component to this issue.

[Minadin]

Just like gas stoves!

The horror!

[Minadin]

My neck of the woods is about 3500 people per square kilometer. I’ll burn wood if I want to. Usually not for HVAC purposes, though.

It’s really weird that the UK is clamping down on wood burning while continental Europe, places like Germany, are ramping it up.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

And how many lives are saved by wood burners keeping warm?

Your “facts” are one-sided.

[Davedave]

None. The number of people in cities in the UK using wood burners to keep warm, who couldn’t afford alternatives, is zero to any reasonable approximation. They are a rounding error.

People in cities in the UK do not use wood burners as a primary source of heating, they use them as additional heating because they look pretty.

[Azathoth!!]

If what you say is true then it should not be an issue.

A tiny population of fad fire heaters does not merit regulatory change if they are such a minority.

However, if wood burning is far more extensive than you think, and wood is priced at the premium you say, then you’ve got a much greater problem than a bit of soot.

[Davedave]

There are not all that many wood burners, but they produce a hell of a lot of very dirty smoke. And the people who do it are selfish bastards who only respond to fines.

[Idaho Bob]

Classic authoritarianism.

I’m going home and burning a dozen old tractor tires using used motor oil and kerosene as the ignition material.

[Davedave]

If you live in the middle of nowhere in Idaho, it isn’t going to affect lots of other people. Doing that in the middle of London has been illegal for 70-odd years.

[Rossami]

It depends almost entirely on what fuel you have available to put into those stoves. My guess is that those ratings are for perfectly dry, well-seasoned hardwood of probably one particular species. If you’re desperate enough for heat to be burning wood, first you probably don’t have that perfect fuel supply available and second, you probably can’t afford one of those stoves in the first place. (A quick google search puts both those models north of $2500 US just for the stove. More for installation, remodeling to take advantage of it, fuel, etc.)

[Chumby]

Properly seasoned wood will do one well. Hardwood is generally better though I trend mostly softwood during the shoulder seasons. There are places farther north that don’t have hardwood and just burn SPF.

How much does the alternative oil furnace cost? Or electric split system which will not work below a certain temperature? Or propane/nat gas?

I can afford any heat and chose to stay with cord wood. I had about $100 in for this year’s supply and am through about half of it. So $50 for heating through today. Last weekend was -20 deg F outdoors and upper 70s indoors.

[Idaho Bob]

“I can afford any heat and chose to stay with cord wood.”

This is my situation as well. I live in a national forest, so wood is “free”. I put free in quotes because chainsaws, splitters, gas, oil, and my labor is expensive.

I have no local hardwood, unless you consider birch or larch hardwoods. 🙂

[Chumby]

The $100 was bar chain oil, premix, diesel for the tractor, gas for the splitter and the oil change for the splitter. I’ll be a bit more this year for a new chain (have spares but count switching for that year). Think I have five sharpenings on the current chain and she’s getting long in the tooth (pun intended). Only sharpen when really dull so a cord plus between. I use that Timberline jig made in Idaho Falls. I may switch back to ethanol free gas with 2cycle oil so maybe I’ll stay around $100. No gym membership fees for the workouts.

I like tamarack (larch) as a starter. White birch or yellow?

[Idaho Bob]

White birch. I’m almost Canadian border, so nearly everything is conifer. Creosote can be a chimney issue without proper maintenance.

Obviously, you endorse the Timberline tool. I’ve been sharpening with an old jig and files or Dremel when in the field. Gonna have to try the Timberline; I always thought it was a gimmick.

[Chumby]

Softwood starts easier than hardwood so there is that.

I’m happy with the Timberline. Looked at an Oregon grinder but went with that. I hand sharpen like shit. I use a Lansky on the knives and a KME on the axes. Dremel on the mower blades. Did I mention I hand sharpen like shit?

With that Morso, about 4.5 cords a year, I’d get about a gallon and a half out of the flue. That included fly ash in the tee sump. Will see how the Jotul performed after mud season.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

What about burning dung? I mean, it’s just laying around. Even people in cities can find (or make) some.

[Chumby]

There were and may still be multi-fuel stoves. Stoves made exclusively for cord wood should not have other fuels burned in them. A wood-coal or biomass-wood stove probably could burn (dehydrated) manure. Not sure how often one would need to sweep the flue or exactly what would be coming out of it beyond CO2 and H2O. Or how well the moisture could be removed. Cord wood will ignite at around 19% moisture. I burn around 9%. Iirc, recommended range is in the 5% to 14%.

Recall reading about midwest farmers burning cornhusks and maybe even using corn kernels in (modified?) pellet stoves.

[Davedave]

“If you’re desperate enough for heat to be burning wood”

That isn’t the situation here. They’re luxuries additional to gas heating, used only by people rich enough to afford the extra cost of stoves and fuel.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

Got some proof of that, or are you just spouting your masters’ propaganda?

[Davedave]

We’re talking about London, dumbarse.

[Rossami]

For some, yes they are luxuries. But not for everyone. And nowhere in the law nor in any of the implementation plans is any latitude to distinguish between the two populations.

[Davedave]

We’re talking about big cities, so yes, that’s the distinguishing factor.

[Rossami]

No, in fact, that regulation is not restricted to just big cities. (But even if it were, there are poor people in cities, too.)

[Davedave]

Yes, it is restricted to ‘clean air zones’. Which are in big cities. And poor people in UK cities don’t have log burners, they’re a luxury thing.

[Medulla Oblongata]

A Jøtul Oslo is how I heat my fishing cabin, which is quite well insulated, too. A lot of times I have to actually open a window because it gets too warm.

There is no furnace or primary heating system, either. Just the Jotul. Which is plenty.

[Cyto]

Repeat offenders can face criminal charges… Also criminal charges if you don’t pay your fine….

Still better than some places here, where they can take your house and sell it, keeping all the proceeds, should you fail to pay the fine.

[Davedave]

Treason.com flat-out lying again, because they know their deluded traitor readership won’t actually check the source.

The rules only apply to new stoves. The fines will be for people who knowingly install stoves that emit too much pollution.

That there is a problem with air quality due to PM2.5 is unquestionable, and that wood-burning contributes over a quarter of all the particulates is also well-established. And yet, outside cities, it is still fine to use wood-burners, and the law reflects that.

Where does treason.com find writers willing to lie so blatantly?

[Rossami]

Well, the source article they link to doesn’t say that.
The government website that they link to doesn’t say that.
The 262 page PDF buried three layers deep on the government’s website does say that emissions limits are being reduced on new stoves but that same PDF also says that they are widening enforcement to areas that were previously unconstrained, extending it to fuels burned outside (so not just stoves anymore) and encouraging strategies that will make it harder to keep your old stove.

I’ll give Reason a little criticism for being a bit hyperbolic in their reporting but on a falseness scale, it’s thin gruel compared to your attempt to imply that there’s nothing to see here.

[Davedave]

The BBC article says exactly what I say, though it’s a bit confused.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

The BBC is a paragon of unbiased objective reporting. This is well-known.

[Davedave]

The BBC is treason.com’s cited source. You must be even stupider than you first seemed.

[Rossami]

I don’t know what article you’re reading but the BBC article linked in the article above does not say this rule is only applicable to new stoves. Again, the actual reg does (when you dig deep enough) but the actual reg also has qualifiers that contradict your polyannish view.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

What if we put you in a smoker?

[Unicorn Abattoir]

There isn’t enough mesquite and applewood in the world…

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

The PM 2.5 story is indeed questionable and has been questioned.

https://junkscience.com/2020/05/milloy-testimony-to-epa-on-the-proposed-freeze-of-pm2-5-air-quality-standards/

CASAC said there was “inadequate evidence and rationale for altered causal determinations… and a need for clearer discussion of causality and causal biological mechanisms and pathways.”

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

Nobody needs 23 degrees of heat.

[Don't look at me!]

Accord to the idiot above, you are “selfish” if you want to heat your home.

[Chumby]

Yeah. 26 is more comfortable.

[Crackers Boy]

Just got back from Ireland. Missed the unique smell of peat burning in the pubs. It’s been banned. Well, apparently there is a “synthetic peat”, made from petroleum products, that is legal.

CB

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

Ireland? What about burning rich English gentry?

[Chumby]

For peat’s sake!

[Longtobefree]

So they can switch from “heating with wood” to “unlicensed cremation of government officials”.

[TangoDelta]

Just chain them up in the basement. They’ll generate more than enough hot air to heat a full city block.

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[NotForNoReason]

Such perfect timing.

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