Examining America's War in Iraq After 20 Years
It was a blunder. Worse than that, it was a crime.

On March 20, 2003, what was officially one of America's shorter wars began with an airstrike on Saddam Hussein's presidential palace in Baghdad. U.S. armed forces, 160,000 strong, moved out of Kuwait and across Iraq, and after overcoming a few small roadblocks along the way took the capital city within three weeks. On May 1, President George W. Bush declared victory from the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln, off the coast of San Diego. With combat over, "our coalition is engaged in securing and reconstructing that country," Bush said. "In this battle, we have fought for the cause of liberty, and for the peace of the world."
As it turned out, neither the U.S. military mission nor the broader cause of liberty and peace were accomplished by May 2003, nor were they in the months and years to follow. What the Bush administration sold as a grim but necessary surgical strike for democracy and stability in the Middle East and the world has been revealed over the past two decades as one of the most grievous errors in superpower history. Mendacious in its beginnings, incompetent in its aftermath, and downright criminal in the death and civilizational wreckage it caused, the Iraq War was a catastrophe America has not yet properly reckoned with.
Mangled Bodies From Tangled Lies
To understand war, your vision must focus on details more intimate and specific than geopolitical generalities and great-power prerogatives. This particular war began with human bodies split open with bombs from the air and shells from the ground and bullets from every direction. In some cities, more than half of the accomplishments that make us civilized—buildings and homes and the complicated machinery that brings us safe water to drink and electricity to light up the darkness and power machines—were damaged or destroyed.
Because of the "kinetic actions," in bloodless militaryspeak, that the U.S. government initiated in March 2003, for many years Iraqis would view the common automobile—usually a symbol of industrialized society meeting basic human needs—as a potential harbinger of violent death. The vehicles would, with a frequency too horrible to accept, explode, shattering the glass that kept homes and stores secure from the elements and intruders; tearing the skin and arteries that kept human bodies alive; robbing children from parents and parents from children and breadwinners from families and merchants from the customers who relied on them; sending shockwaves of grief and rage that set up motive and opportunity for the next violent assault on life and on the orderly operation of bourgeois society that constitutes the good life.
The invasion eliminated a brutal dictator, something many Iraqis were grateful for in itself. But it also for years eliminated even the distant vision of that good life. As one Iraqi woman told journalist Nir Rosen for his 2010 book Aftermath: Following the Bloodshed of America's Wars in the Muslim World, "My message to the American people after five years, they destroyed us and didn't help us, they didn't reconstruct the country, they even added more destruction to us. The days during Saddam were better. Now there is killing and nothing good. Before there was security and life was going on easily…now things are getting worse and worse, killing in the streets." As late as 2016, 93 percent of polled young Iraqis considered Americans their enemies for a war that Bush and his team framed as their liberation.
War of Choice
The boys doing Bush's foreign policy thinking had a prewar paper trail planning Saddam's overthrow that stretched back a decade. It had become an article of neoconservative faith by the turn of the century that Bush's father, President George H.W. Bush, should have deposed the Ba'athist dictator as the capper to the 1991 war that expelled his armies from Kuwait. In 2001, the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), full of folk who would forge W.'s foreign policy, made it clear that this grand plan was much larger than a single tyrant: It was about a "need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf [that] transcends the…regime of Saddam Hussein." The government's official National Security Strategy for 2002, issued in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, incorporated PNAC's thinking, pushing the principle that any country seen as credibly threatening U.S. interests should be brought to heel with hard military power, not just the softer stuff of cultural influence and diplomacy and trade.
Even before September 11, Bush Treasury Secretary Paul H. O'Neill would later report, one of the administration's highest priorities was finding a way to topple Saddam. In the aftermath of the World Trade Center attacks, most any military act, no matter how severe or reckless, could be framed as an urgent fight against terrorism, even if not related to 9/11 itself. The prospect of Iraq possessing weapons of mass destruction (WMDs)—deploying them, selling them, maybe just handing them over to Osama bin Laden—was a bedtime story with terrifying potency for a rattled public. Newspaper publisher Knight Ridder reported as early as February 2002 that the White House was clandestinely planning to invade a nation that had nothing to do with 9/11.
Saddam had been pushing back against a United Nations WMD inspection regime imposed on Iraq following the 1991 Gulf War. The Clinton administration bombed him directly for this in 1998 (it had already been bringing routine death from the air via anodyne-sounding "no-fly zones") and made his ouster official U.S. policy with that same year's bipartisan Iraq Liberation Act. Iraq was also under an international economic sanctions regime, one that U.N. humanitarian aid coordinators had decried as destroying the country in concert with the previous war's destruction of the nation's power, food storage, oil, sewage, road, and railway systems—$232 billion's worth.
Buoyed by claims mostly from self-interested Iraqi exiles that Saddam's roads were crawling with mobile biowarfare factories and that his emissaries were scouring the globe to buy tubes and uranium for his active nuclear weapons program, the Bush administration told Americans and the world that safety and justice required preemptive conquest. Those claims were based on intelligence that was almost comically false in retrospect, some from pure fabricators and some from people who were tortured. Officials did their best to keep such more-than-reasonable doubts from the public, but they were well-known within the U.S. intelligence community.
Bush and his British ally, Prime Minister Tony Blair, considered as a possible casus belli for an invasion ginning up a confrontation, such as flying a U2 reconnaissance aircraft over Iraq "with fighter cover…painted in U.N. colours," according to a memo written by a Blair aid who was present for the conversation. But ultimately the legal basis for this dubiously legal war was that America said so. Congress in October 2002 authorized a bipartisan measure allowing Bush to invade Iraq, with then-Sen. Joe Biden voting for it despite believing that the WMDs "do not pose an imminent threat to our national security." Like many in Washington, he saw such a war as part of a "march to peace and security."
In March 2003, the destruction of Iraq began. Bombs dropped and bullets flew and bodies (and a civilization) were annihilated. Saddam's armed forces, presumed to have numbered around 400,000, barely fought, a phantom menace that in great numbers took off their uniforms and tried to fade back into Iraqi society, such as it remained.
As a military operation, Bush's invasion did everything it needed to do, nearly flawlessly. And thus an American and Iraqi disaster began.
Reconstruction Blues
The WMDs were not found. They were not there. Lt. Gen. James T. Conway, commander of the I Marine Expeditionary Force, gave it to us straight: Nothing was found to justify the war on its own terms. "It's not for lack of trying," Conway said in a May 30, 2003, Defense Department briefing from Baghdad. "We've been to virtually every ammunition supply point between the Kuwait border and Baghdad but they're simply not there."
The administration fell back on the argument that Saddam never gave up "aspirations and intentions" toward obtaining such weapons. (Of course, nothing would inspire him more to use them if he had them than invading his country to overthrow him. But not much was said about that.) Very thin accusations that Saddam had allied with or aided Al Qaeda before 9/11 were floated and similarly did not hold water.
As head of the Coalition Provisional Authority, L. Paul Bremer by then was essentially viceroy of Iraq; to flex how deeply we were obliterating the cause and memory of Saddam Hussein (who was executed in December 2006), Bremer disbanded the old Iraqi army and barred nearly all Ba'ath Party members from participation in government. Suddenly, hundreds of thousands of aggrieved and unemployed young men were stalking the country, and nearly anyone with experience running schools or hospitals or water treatment facilities or oil refineries or electrical plants weren't allowed to work on any of those things.
By the end of 2004, Iraq had become so violent that most U.S. officials—no matter how much their tasks might require seeing, understanding, and speaking to Iraqis (though the vast majority could only do so through translators)—just hunkered down in the area around Saddam's old Republican Palace. In an act of bloody irony, the U.S. had made this its headquarters, known as the Green Zone. Projects from generating electricity to distributing food were stymied or halted because it simply wasn't safe to be anywhere or to do anything in this nation cursed by U.S. liberation; nervous contractors hired armed guards, who too often killed Iraqi civilians merely for not stopping their cars when warned.
Guaranteed profits for well-connected corporations (some of them run by absurdly underqualified conman cowboys who knew the right people) were more common than improvements to the average Iraqi's life. Marquee state-of-the-art hospitals favored by D.C. got more cash and attention than basic clinics to deal with more mundane but still deadly problems, such as the diarrhea that afflicted Iraqi children who often lacked access to clean water.
A pivot to security in late 2004 meant that near-majorities of planned water and electricity projects never got finished; the funding for them was diverted to trying to keep Americans and their employees alive. (Some that got finished were better left undone, like the series of natural-gas-powered generators erected in places where there were no conceivable pipelines to deliver the gas.) Nor did Iraqis seem prepared to step up: When the U.S. handed over control of the Health Ministry in March 2004, for example, 40 percent of medicines the ministry declared "essential" were not in stock in hospitals, and public clinics dealing with chronic diseases were out of 26 of 32 needed drugs. Three years later, the Iraqi health minister faced trial for such crimes as selling pharmaceuticals meant for his citizens to Iran (at a discount) and to foreign firms (for profit)—and ordering the deaths of guards from a Commission on Public Integrity that was investigating. He was acquitted, an event that a later Governance Assessment Report from the U.S. declared "a signal that those in government are above the law."
As an occupying army, the U.S. was understandably afraid to hire many Iraqis, which left more unemployed people angry at that occupying army in a nation awash with weapons. Even those employed in the Iraqi military or police would frequently sell their bullets and guns for walking-around money. In the meantime, Washington was widely perceived as propping up Shiite Muslims (who had been suppressed under Saddam's government) in their increasingly violent dealings with Sunni Muslims. The new Iraqi government, run by a Shiite, was torturing Sunnis, even in hospitals. Many Sunnis crawled into the arms of Al Qaeda in Iraq and began shooting back at the Shiites.
Things got bad, and things got worse. The Syrian border became a pathway for foreign militants to come in and make trouble. Iran's influence over the Shiite government of Iraq deepened, and it has continued to this day. The Sadrist Movement withdrew from normal governance and became its own insurgent army. Insurgent courts would administer acid baths for unveiled women, and electric prods and hot irons for Sunni men who insisted on continuing to live where their families had long been living.
After seven years of U.S. occupation, Rosen writes in Aftermath, "hundreds of thousands of Iraqis had been killed. Many more had been injured. There were millions of widows and orphans. Millions had fled their homes. Tens of thousands of Iraqi men had spent years in American prisons. The new Iraqi state was among the most corrupt in the world. It was often brutal. It failed to provide adequate services to its people, millions of whom were barely able to survive."
Mission Accomplished! Lessons Learned?
With negotiations complicated by Washington's insistence that its troops must be able to act with complete legal impunity in Iraq, Bush, and later Obama, agreed to pull out all armed forces by the end of 2011. But with the rise of more militant chaos in the 2010s from the Islamic State group, American troops were back fighting throughout most of the 2010s. With that mission now officially over, about 2,500 troops still remain there, allegedly to merely assist and advise the Iraqis (who recently spent nearly a year trying to pull together a government, an effort marred by the usual factional rivalries, mass protests, arrests, and murders).
By some metrics, modern Iraq has shown improvement since 2003. Life expectancy is up, if only by two years, and gross domestic product has increased sixfold (while still barely half what it was prior to the first Western wreckage of Iraq in 1991). Crude oil production (nearly 90 percent of the nation's income) has more than doubled. But it is dangerous to let economic growth fool us into deciding, decades past the daily piles of bodies in the streets, that it all seems to have worked out well enough in the end.
Beyond all the misery and chaos caused in Iraq itself, the U.S. came nowhere close to the neoconservative dream of a democratic domino effect in the Middle East. What resulted from the Iraq adventure was greater power and influence for America's sworn enemy Iran, plus weapons and experienced jihadists and sectarian rivalries spreading around the region.
"Rather than being inspired by what happened in Iraq after the invasion," former Middle Eastern CIA man Paul R. Pillar wrote in The National Interest in 2011, "Middle Easterners were repelled by it. If the violence, disorder, and breakdown of public services in Iraq were the birth pangs of a new Middle Eastern order, most people in the region wanted nothing of it."
Even after Iraq, the U.S. has not given up on its hegemonic hunch that it can expend treasure and kill strangers to push the Middle East in desired directions. But it is now doing this more with mechanized drones in the air and less with American soldiers on the ground. While American bombardment helped topple Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi in 2011, leading to still more chaos and instability and death, and we have troops and drones acting to this day in Syria, the U.S. since then has had the general sense—or the exhaustion—not to again try to invade and reconstruct a Middle Eastern nation from the ground up. In the post–Donald Trump GOP, support for the Iraq War has largely become anathema.
Yet the U.S. has still not fully internalized that war's lessons. The Iraq debacle should have taught the U.S. it can never again scare itself into war based on guesses about how sinister some enemy is or will be. It should have taught Americans the damage that can be done by treating a foreign bogeyman as inherently intolerable—whether it's Saddam Hussein or Vladimir Putin or the mullahs of Iran, a nation whose feared pursuit of nuclear weapons has vexed Washington for many years. Instead, President Joe Biden declared in November 2022 that "we're gonna free Iran!"
In 2007, Rep. Lloyd Doggett (D–Texas) summed up America's bloody, buffoonish attempts at conquest and reconstruction. "This war," he said, "was launched without an imminent threat to our families" by "radical know-it-all ideologues here in Washington" who "bent facts, distorted intelligence, and perpetrated lies designed to mislead the American people into believing that a third-rate thug had a hand in the 9/11 tragedy and was soon to unleash a mushroom cloud."
Even the commingled scents of burning rubber, plastic, and flesh from car bombs dissipate with time. But the lessons of the folly that destroyed so many lives should never fade.
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We can thank politicians such as Bush, Hillary, Cheney and Biden for military adventurism debacles such as Iraq and now Ukraine. Of course, there is the great financial cost of the proxy war in Ukraine but perhaps as important if not more so will be the blowback from that. When Carter started assisting the radical Mujahideen in 1970s Afghanistan, later ramped up by Reagan, there would be negative consequences of having done that. The pro Kiev Stepan Bandera types may eventually come to the US and get their revenge. On the positive side, for the years the US fought against Iraq and the Taliban (who ended up defeating Biden), per research by RT, notable MIC companies averaged a double digit stock price ROI. Congress got paid even if none of it was unmarked bills in plain envelopes.
"and now Ukraine"
Pumping billions of dollars into that proxy war is certainly questionable from a libertarian POV. But I suspect Biden's handlers are smart enough to know voters don't want American soldiers dying for Ukraine.
Ukraine is not part of the US and that should be enough for Washington to not send a penny. Individual Americans that want to support the Zelensky regime in Kiev are free to write a check or grab their kit and head over there.
What for? Now that the dark underbelly of censorship, lies and coercion is exposed throughout all governments.
In the 20th century American forces were involved in 25 anti-labour and 6 Indian and racist conflicts and massacres on US soil, as well as 37 International conflicts in Mexico, Cuba, Nicaragua, Russia, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Indochina, Korea, Iran, Laos, Lebanon, Congo, Vietnam, Thailand, Bolivia, Cambodia, Zaire, Afghanistan, Gulf of Sidra, Grenada, Libya, Mediterranean Sea, Panama, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Somalia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Kosovo, Sudan as well as WW1 and WW2 .
In the 21st century US forces have been involved in 14 international conflicts in Afghanistan, Nepal, Maghreb, Sahara, Sahel, Horn of Africa, Gulf of Aden, Guardafui Channel, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, Kenya, Indian Ocean, Libya, Uganda, Syria and Yemen.
These are direct conflicts only. Not included is interference and instigation not leading to direct US military action, like coordinating the 2014 coup in Ukraine.
Because it leads to needless deaths, does not help the average American, contributes to the $31,500,000,000,000 debt and puts the US at risk of a nuclear exchange with the one nation that has a larger stockpile than the US. There is also the issue of blowback. Perhaps Washington and the Pentagon brass should focus on how to disallow a military balloon from flying across the nation including over the nuclear triad before playing proxy war with borrowed money.
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It’s always for money.
Thanks to our fictional economic dependence on the corruption of money, interest, the US national debt is increasing by $40,000.00 every second. That’s just someones profit.
When the US declares bankruptcy when there are not enough riches to steal from other countries, EVERY US CITIZEN WILL BECOME A SLAVE TO THE BANKS.
"Thanks to our fictional economic dependence on the corruption of money, interest, the US national debt is increasing by $40,000.00 every second. That’s just someones profit."
This Nazi shit assumes someone is swimming in a pool filled with gold coins.
Sorry, clicked the "flag" by mistake. Mods, there is nothing wrong with his post...
Except that Herr Misek is an authentic Antisemitic, Holocaust-Denying Nazi, of course.
So what is your Solution? Paying off the debt by selling off clothes, shoes, and Gold teeth?
Fuck Off, Nazi!
The nub of your gist is agreeable, but don't hitch your wagon to this falling star, Chumby. Here Be Monsters.
Kinda small potatoes compared against your Fuhrer wanting the entire world, right?
Fuck Off, Nazi!
Pumping billions of dollars into that proxy war is certainly questionable from a libertarian POV.
True libertarians are 100% isolationist. They don't care if a hostile military power initiates a war of aggression right next to treaty allies. We shouldn't be in any treaties anyway. Just let the world burn. Not our problem.
The neocon saw his shadow. 10 more years of proxy wars for sarc.
The fact we gobbled up Russia’s natural gas market share makes our sending lethal aid to Ukraine essentially free because the dollar is more valuable than it’s been in years.
Going to Kiev soon?
You are currently free to send Kiev money then board a plane to head their for combat service. Your actions are not matching your words.
There's got to be a name for the logical fallacy you are employing, I just don't know what it is.
Your actions don’t match your words. It is called integrity when they do. I’m not surprised you consider that a logical fallacy.
Like I said below. Textbook ad hominem. “Your words are wrong because you did or didn’t do such and such.”
I thought you were smarter than that.
You literally posted a strawman. A terrible one. You didn't make an actual argument.
Holy shit this is stupid.
This is SARC!
What would Forest Gump say?
Forrest at least learned from past failures. Sarc never has. Has been incorrectly using logical fallacies as an argument for a decade now.
Something far more intelligent than Sarc.
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And while he can still grasp at those straws, he still doesn’t properly grasp the definition of ‘ad hominem’.
Your actions do not match your words. That speaks to a lack of integrity.
Textbook ad hominem
No sarc... no, no, no... Even after all these years you still can't figure this out. "Ad hominem" doesn't just mean being rude to you and calling you names.
Chumby pointed out that your actions aren't matching your words. You claimed that pointing out that fact was some sort of fallacy (it isn't). Chumby said it was more indicative of a lack of integrity (and I'd add hypocrisy).
Actual ad hominem would have been like this: "You won't send Kiev money or fight because you're a retarded drunk".
When sarc uses “textbook” as an attempt to act as an authority, it looks to fall under the “wishful thinking” fallacy.
Attacking Faulty Reasoning by T. Edward Damer
Interestingly, there is a website dedicated to categorizing logical fallacies. That website is good with arguments including ad hominem provided there is other valid content. The book referenced above does not provide for that leeway.
sarcasmic: People pointed out, correctly, that you are not acting like a libertarian. To a libertarian, military action is a voluntary, personal choice. So, if you claim to be a libertarian and you want to defend Ukraine, you need to spend your personal money and take personal
risks to do so.
Since you argue for the Ukraine war but are (apparently) unwilling to pay for it and take risks for it personally, despite being able to do so, you are not a libertarian.
That's not an "ad hominem", it's a correct observation.
Dude, bro.
In your case, "Chicken Kiev" as in "Chicken Hawk"
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Ah, yes. It's a variation of the ad hominem. I'm wrong because I didn't do this or that. Attack the person, not what they say. Something leftists and Reason commenters believe to be logical and persuasive arguments.
You didnt make a substantive argument. There is no argument he is attempting to refute.
Please learn what an hominem is.
Your first post was an attempted attack and strawman against someone who may disagree with you.
Youre an idiot sarc.
Would you hire a physical trainer that was obese? Would you hire a financial advisor that had been in prison for financial fraud? Would you hire a mechanic who had to bun rides because their vehicle never operated?
It is easy for you to keyboard general with feelingz because it isn’t your life on the line nor is it your money.
What does that have to do with me exaggerating the "true libertarian" position on Ukraine?
So you admit your first post was in fact a logical fallacy, strawman. So why are you claiming others are creating an ad hominem which only works against substantive arguments? You had zero substance in your post. It was a logical fallacy.
God damn.
By the way, is this the honest argumentation you keep clamoring for?
I’m calling out the inconsistency with what you do versus what you feel. It was nice for you to admit that you are not libertarian.
Reading this particular thread is like watching a massacre. Like some scrawny drunken retard picked a fight with a table of heavyweight UFC champs.
Poor Sarc.
One other aspect of Biden’s complete botch was when he received the bodies of US servicemen back in Dover. Iirc, these were the soldiers killed at the entrance to the Kabul airport when a terrorist bomb was detonated. The least Biden could have done was to pay respect but instead Brandon kept checking his watch.
I admit that any withdraw would have had risks. In this case, the poor decision by Biden to hold the urban, single runway at difficult to defend Kabul airport instead the two runways at rural Bagram fomented what happened that day. CNBC had reported that the terror attack was plotted by one of the high value prisoners that Biden had allowed out of Bagram a few weeks earlier when he had folks just walk away in the middle of the night.
"I admit that any withdraw would have had risks."
Agreed, but one negotiated with agreement on timing stood a far better chance than one planned at a pizza-and-beer party to provide a photo op:
"...President Joe Biden has sought to place blame for the shocking dénouement in Afghanistan on the situation he “inherited” from the Trump administration. What a sad-sack attempt at blame-shifting. Team Trump’s withdrawal plan was sound. What proved catastrophic were Biden’s changes to that plan.
I’m intimately familiar with former President Donald Trump’s Afghanistan strategy. In November 2020, I was named chief of staff at the Pentagon, where one of my primary responsibilities was to wind down the forever war in Afghanistan.
Trump instructed me to arrange a conditions-based, methodical exit plan that would preserve the national interest. The plan ended up being fairly simple: The Afghan government and the Taliban were both told they would face the full force of the US military if they caused any harm to Americans or American interests in Afghanistan..."
https://nypost.com/2021/08/19/i-ran-trumps-afghan-withdrawal-bidens-attempt-to-blame-us-is-sad/
Trump didn’t hold the Taliban to any of the conditions. Trump’s own Afghanistan Special Envoy said the final days could have gone much worse than it did and so Biden did everything correctly.
This Chumby commenter is like a cockroach…he’s a vile Cheney Republican like most of the commenters on the Volokh that have been around for years.
Look, Seb. Chumby and I don't see eye-to-eye on everything about Ukraine, but he is neither a Cheney, nor is he a vermin. Make your point about what he has to say and cut that out!
“if a hostile military power initiates a war of aggression right next to treaty allies.”
There’s your key. The political powers that be have not signed a treaty with that country.
What next, someone who robs a shoe store in a mall is charged with robbing the ice cream shop next door?
Not charged, but should the person at the ice cream shop help the people at the shoe store if they can? Or should they say "not my problem?"
If the ice cream shop wants to help, that’s their business.
What isn’t their business? Forcing everyone in the mall to pay for extra security for the mall in the next town.
"True libertarians are 100% isolationist."
Are they? Yet they believe in open borders?
"Isolationism" is as misunderstood as "individualism". It does not mean pulling the covers over your head and pretending the outside world does not exist. It does mean not trying to control the outside world.
Non-interventionism is the unbiased term. Leftists and neocons like to call it isolationism.
Hadn't heard that term, it's much better. Doesn't roll off the tongue as easily though.
Government noninterventionism has some great applications domestically as well. Of course the leftists and Weekly Standard type neocons use other words for that besides “isolationist.”
Oh, and speaking of Weekly Standard, the DNC’s new bff Bill Kristol was among those most stubbornly insisting that Saddam was in bed with Bin Laden.
Libertarians believe that we shouldn’t have NATO-style treaty allies anywhere.
And the only reason Ukraine is “right next to” treaty allies is because the US expanded NATO eastward, against reason, against promises, and against Russia’s warnings.
The eastward NATO expansion in the reason why this war is happening in the first place!
Not at all. True libertarians like free trade and travel between libertarian nations and free market economies, but limit government military action to the defense of one's own territory.
"The eastward NATO expansion in the reason why this war is happening in the first place!"
No, it's not. It happened because Putin wanted Ukrainian territory and thought it would be an easy win. He's on record of calling the collapse of the USSR a "genuine tragedy".
And no, NATO never promised it wouldn't expand eastward. There were discussions with the Soviet Union where that idea was floated but it was never formally written down in a treaty. Also a bit moot considering that the Soviet Union no longer exists.
Records and statements from those who negotiated post Berlin wall will disagree with you.
Can I have the name of the treaty then?
I never claimed it was a treaty. See statements from Robert Gates and materials recently released.
"Promises" now have the status of treaties? Or maybe even greater status... That does change things.
NATO did promise it would not expand east beyond East Germany.
Here's a video from a youtuber who disputes that. Give it a watch okay?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMqfXxjoFdg&ab_channel=StephenMichaelDavis
LOL
State/Soros isn't sending their best.
NATO is not a government, and it does not make "promises". And if it did, those "promises" would have to be ratified by all NATO countries--which obviously has never happened.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/
It did make a promise it later broke. Keep poking the bear with other people’s lives and money if it makes you feel good.
Uh, there was instability in Europe in the 1990s and NATO was the perfect tool to bring stability…the first expansion had nothing to do with Russia.
None of this is correct, Pear Satirical, but it is one side's narrative. Doesn't hold up to evidence, logic, or history though.
Okay, Nardz, then please present/link me with the documents that refute my position. Give me the name of the agreement and who negotiated.
Weird how you are trying to be so specific to avoid evidence you apparently know is out there. Why is that? Nobody said a treaty was signed. Yet you demand that as evidence.
You're the one suggesting that statements not approved by governments or memorialised in the form of treaties have some kind of legal status.
Yes. True libertarians are isolationist unless we are aggressed against.
Idiotic narrow-minded libertarians pretending to be doctrinaire are 100% isolationist and won't offer help even to support an ally.
Smart libertarians capable of critical thinking understand that the REASON why war is bad, from a libertarian perspective, is because it represents a violation of the NAP on a massive scale. It is a violation of the NAP no matter where it occurs. So the smart thing to do is to try to reduce the likelihood of war occurring in the first place. And you don't do that by giving a green light to dictators that they are free to invade their neighbors without consequence. And when war does break out, those who value liberty should be on the side of resisting aggression.
And besides, frankly most of the people making these doctrinaire "100% isolationism!" arguments don't really believe it, they are just opposed to supporting Ukraine because Team Blue is in favor of supporting Ukraine. We know this based on their lack of rigid doctrinaire ideology in other matters.
"....won’t offer help even to support an ally."
Uh, Ukraine is not an ally to either NATO or the US. Maybe an ally to the Biden family, I'll give you that.
But WMDs!
(Of course, this time the WMDs might be real, as in engineered biological agents made in US-funded labs. But that would create a complicated narrative, even more so with any Biden family names on contracts.)
American soldiers dying in Ukraine isn’t the problem. The problem is decades of future Ukrainian and Russian terrorists fighting it out on US soil. The problem is decades of future Ukrainian-American and Russian-American politicians using the US government to fight their historical grievances. The problem is a series of unstable governments in Russia using nuclear weapons and selling them to terrorists and hostile regimes.
The establishment is laying the groundwork:
https://web.archive.org/web/20230206001026/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/05/opinion/ukraine-war-putin.html
I'd also point to the unelected ruling government, the deep state. The department of defense and department of state, with entrenched bureaucracies and people who have their own world-shaping agendas. There's a pro-war faction which loves the projection of power across the world and thinks there are few problems we can't solve with boots on the ground.
Yes, we have entrenched bureaucracy.
Calling it the “Deep State” is a right-wing dog whistle and perpetuation of the MAGA victimhood narrative. Nothing bad that happened during the Trump Administration was his fault because everything can be blamed on the “Deep State”.
Deep state literally means unelected entrenched bureaucracy that fights against elected officials. See trump impeachment largely built on ignoring state department opinion. Or The Resistance. Or the IC going after politicians.
Stop being a sea lion.
Nice strawman by the way. Let’s you ignore reality.
Did the military, as an example, lie to Trump about Syria? Yes or no?
The term deep state preceded trump by decades.
One would think that educated Americans would blanch at the prospect of federal agencies making policies independent of congressional or court oversight, but the opposite is true, especially when federal agents pursue progressive policies
https://mises.org/wire/yes-virginia-there-deep-state-and-it-worse-you-think
We are not speaking of secret conspiracies in which nefarious actions are carried out in the darkness. These things are carried out in daylight, complete with the names of the characters involved, yet people who raise serious questions about the legality of these actions, let alone the question of right and wrong, are excoriated and ignored by our institutional gatekeepers.
Not just lie to Trump, communicated (Milley) with a foreign power (China) that they would be tipped off if a military strike was going to happen.
Milley is the same guy that supposedly told Biden not to shoot down the balloon, right?
I believe so.
How does renaming something change its function?
You absolutely can believe in the Deep State, and call it such, without being right-wing or believing there's any kind of anti-Trump conspiracy to it.
In fact, I'd say it's very libertarian to recognize that there's a vast swatch of unelected officials who have their own agenda, unanswerable to voters. We can't elect a new Deputy Direct of Intelligence, we can't elect a new head of the FBI's counterterrorism division, we can't elect a new Undersecretary of State for Civilian Security, Democracy, and Human Rights. We have much less control over senior agents in the FBI or CIA or NSA, we don't have control over the senior officers in the Pentagon. These people have their own agendas and can push policies for their own motivations, whether it's personal greed, ideology, self-aggrandizement, or even misplaced benevolence (or malevolence, if they want to see the world burn).
If you prefer, refer to it as the Military-Industrial Complex, though that doesn't cover the full depth of it. That's more focused only on the military and several large contractors but is seemingly less skeptical of large agencies like the FDA, IRS, the Department of Energy, the Department of Education, and other agencies where people can exert a great deal of administrative power that's unanswerable to the population.
Calling it a dog whistle is meaningless, I'm literally describing what I mean when I say it. You can address the things I'm pointing to and whether you consider them problematic without trying to start a fight over the terminology.
https://twitter.com/Iraqveteran8888/status/1622278171851620354?t=gRxN4t_q5-QmkUqSyj1y_w&s=19
Do you think the United States military would fire on their on people if ordered to?
[Poll]
Oh, there’s a couple of examples…
https://twitter.com/lpohio/status/1622286639300050945?s=46&t=LWSQbN2US7ULesC1hlNomA
But if Mike admitted that the Deep State existed long before Trump and will exist long after he’s dead, he’d have to admit that they actively work against the interest of the American people and some of their elected officials.
And we can’t have that.
Yup, here is Example #1 of what I just wrote below. "Deep State" refers not just to the existence of a bureaucracy, but to the purported presence of a malign influence.
You know, most of the "Deep State" are just overpaid paper-pushers (or in this day and age, overpaid electron-rearrangers).
The vast majority of the time, when you hear about some excess from the bureaucracy, it isn't because of some horrible bureaucrats pushing an agenda. It is either because (a) the law permits what they did, so blame Congress for writing a crappy law, or (b) SCOTUS enabled what they did, so blame SCOTUS for a crappy decision.
Was it a conspiracy that the NSA was spying on Americans under the Bush and Obama administrations? Blatant, vast violations of constitutional authority and they were actively lying about it to Congress. That’s what got Snowden to speak up, after all-the fact that they were blatantly covering it up and the only way for him to get the information out was to share everything he could get his hands.
And that’s case where it was done in violation of the constitution, without Congressional oversight (because they hiding the truth from Congress) and with no authority under the court system. It was a group of people trying to govern without governing authority. And who faced consequences for this? Clapper stayed in his position until the end of the Obama Administration, he’s never been prosecuted. He’s still got a cushy job as a CNN analyst. Keith Alexander continued on as NSA director for several more years before he retired. Now he’s on Amazon’s board of directors, clearly doing okay.
Use a different term for it if you like. It’s still a force within government that is trying to govern without the consent of the governed. It’s the government working against the people, violating rights, and being rewarded for it instead of facing consequences.
“The first time I found that the term deep state was applied to the US government was a book written in 2007 by a University of California Berkeley professor named Peter Dale Scott. I interviewed Scott for my book, and he used the term “deep state” to describe what liberals typically fear, which is the military-industrial complex. Scott wrote about a sense that the military and defense contractors had driven the country repeatedly into wars and maybe helped fuel 9/11 and the wars that followed. For Scott, it also applied to large financial interests, like Wall Street banks.”
- https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/5/13/21219164/trump-deep-state-fbi-cia-david-rohde
You have a reflexive disdain for it because people on the right adopted the term too.
I can admit that I don’t believe I heard the term before it started being more widely used, but it perfectly encapsulates the idea of the entrenched bureaucracy that uses its administrative power to fuck with normal American citizens through all the various alphabet agencies.
We can take the “Deep State” as the Military-Industrial complex back to the Eisenhower Administration and Ike’s warning of the Military-Industrial complex. It probably existed at least as early as the New Deal, but definitely nurtured by WWII.
WWII may have left the US What physically unscathed, but it left a different legacy in that defense spending never really fell back to pre-war levels. Part of this seems to be due to the start of the Cold War with the hot Korean War starting shortly thereafter.
Really ramped up once the US started incorporating nazi strategists into their ranks.
There is an entrenched bureaucracy, that is true, that is less accountable to the voters than elected politicians are.
But that is not typically what is meant by "Deep State" from the right-wing.
Instead, "Deep State" is code for an entrenched bureaucracy that is not only less accountable, but ALSO full of conspiratorial schemers enacting their own agendas outside of the bounds of the legal authority that justifies said bureaucracy. So the reason why Trump couldn't just snap his fingers and demand the rest of the government obey his will wasn't because Trump didn't have the authority to do that, it was because the "Deep State" thwarted him, you see.
The federal bureaucracy actively worked to slow or even sabotage Trump’s directives. Leftists. Like you.
There ARE people within the government who actively try to work against the government. They don't like what their boss is doing, or maybe they want to continue a war that the boss wants to end, or maybe they're having too much fun spying on people to end their massive illegal domestic surveillance programs. Or maybe they're trying to control what people can say on Twitter and Facebook in direct violations of the First Amendment.
I use the term "Deep State" but you can suggest an alternative. "Entrenched Bureaucracy" doesn't really convey anything, it makes it sound more lazy than blatantly authoritarian.
Thank you for proving my point. The term "Deep State" as is commonly used on the right does not refer *merely* to the existence of a bureaucracy, but instead to the presence of a conspiracy within the bureaucracy with malign intent.
See, you keep just focusing on the term instead of the facts, which can be quite frustrating. I don’t give a shit about the term.
Do you deny any of what I’m claiming is true? Does this stuff happen-people in the “entrenched bureaucracy,” as you call it, actively working against the wishes of elected officials? CIA people who want to continue using torture to extract information in defiance of Congress? Massive warrantless FBI and NSA digital surveillance? Lies presented on applications for FISA warrants?
If your problem is that you don’t believe any of this stuff is happening, we can work on that point. If you do but you dislike the term because it implies that I’m defending Trump, describe something else. I was using this term to describe the pro-intervention, pro-war faction that existed within the bureaucracy in the two administrations that predated Trump’s election. The left used to call it the Military-Industrial Complex.
I am objecting to your perpetuation of the term, Deep State, because of the connotations MAGAs have bolted onto it. Don’t disagree with anything else you are saying.
Definitions don’t care about feelingz. Time to put on the big girl pants and deal with it.
Yes I do think that there is an entrenched bureaucracy. Most of the time, they are little more than expensive paper-pushers, not conspiratorial radicals.
Yes I do think that, OCCASIONALLY, there are people in the bureaucracy who actively seek to thwart their superiors and/or the law itself. My opinion is that this happens pretty rarely, because the consequences for doing so are severe.
And I also think that MOST OF THE TIME, the people on the right who use the term "Deep State" are using it to absolve Trump of his many failures, as a scapegoat/excuse for Trump's abysmal leadership skills. "Oh, Trump couldn't get the border wall built? It's not because Trump had no clue what to do, or made terrible hires, or vastly overpromised on something he knew he couldn't deliver on. No no no no, it was all the DEEP STATE that stopped him!!!!!!" That is how the term is most frequently used.
You’re such a lying cunt. It’s Trump’s fault the border wall couldn’t be built? It’s scheming little Marxist faggots like YOU that stopped it. The democrats in congress, litigation, and sabotage by the leftist apparatus within the federal government stopped the wall.
"Instead, “Deep State” is code for an entrenched bureaucracy that is not only less accountable, but ALSO full of conspiratorial schemers enacting their own agendas outside of the bounds of the legal authority that justifies said bureaucracy."
Does the name "J. Edgar Hoover" mean anything to you?
But my point is precisely that the terminology IS important because “Deep State” is a MAGA dog whistle. So, yes, I’d prefer discussing the military-industrial complex not the “Deep State”.
Your point is a means to attempt to cover for the left while attacking the right. The term deep state existed before trump sea lion.
Who do you think you are fooling?
So more style than substance?
That tracks.
"right-wing dog whistle"
Mike loves the term "dog whistle" because it allows him to make claims about someone's position that is at odds with what they actually said.
It's a hallmark of a bad-faith argument.
And he is the Arch Duke of bad faith arguments. And totally not a democrat, except for totally being a democrat.
It is not a right wing dog whistle. It's a perfectly acceptable shorthand term to describe the permanent and entrenched administrative state. Calling it a 'right wing dog whistle' is a left-wing dog whistle to browbeat people into compliance with said administrative state.
I disagree.
Nobody gives a fuck you disagree. The term existed prior to trump.
Youre just spewing bullshit. One of the traits of a sea lion is attempting to redefine terms not agreed to by the other parties in an argument.
But Dee’s feelingz want her untruth to become fact. Troof!
That bitch!
See, here we go. This is just the whole CRT thing all over again. Redefine the words to mean what you want them to mean so as to help your narrative.
There is a "Deep State", which is the entrenched unelected bureaucracy.
And then there is the "Deep State" in how right-wingers use it, which is the entrenched unelected bureaucracy *conspiring and scheming to enact their agenda in defiance of the law*.
It is this second, right-wing version of the "Deep State" which stands in as a convenient scapegoat for Trump's failures. So, Trump couldn't get the border wall built? It wasn't because Trump was an inept leader who hired clueless yes-men as underlings, valued for loyalty over competence. Oh no no no it was the "DEEP STATE" and their malign intentions which thwarted noble and heroic Trump! THAT is the type of "Deep State" fictional storytelling that I and, I suspect, Mike is also complaining about.
So it’s not about it’s existence, it’s about who is saying it.
There’s a logical fallacy for that…
And it underpins virtually every argument Jeff has ever made here.
Yep.
Huh. You mean, like how if an American and a Brit were to both use the word "lift" as a noun, the term would have different meanings?
They pull this bait-and-switch game all the time.
Leftists aren't people, they are literally cancer.
Saying ‘right wing dog whistle’ is a left wing dog whistle.
""Calling it the “Deep State” is a right-wing dog whistle and perpetuation of the MAGA victimhood narrative. Nothing bad that happened during the Trump Administration was his fault because everything can be blamed on the “Deep State”.""
Spoken like a true leftist.
I would like to point out that a Senator from NY warned an incoming president about the power and vindictiveness of the deep state.
""New Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) said Tuesday that President-elect Donald Trump is “being really dumb” by taking on the intelligence community and its assessments on Russia’s cyber activities.
“Let me tell you, you take on the intelligence community, they have six ways from Sunday at getting back at you,” Schumer told MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow.
“So even for a practical, supposedly hard-nosed businessman, he’s being really dumb to do this.”""
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/312605-schumer-trump-being-really-dumb-by-going-after-intelligence-community/
Pretty much this.
On the positive side, for the years the US fought against Iraq and the Taliban (who ended up defeating Biden)
Say what? President Skeletor simply continued what his predecessor started.
No, Bush, Obama and Trump all did great in America's longest and (tied for) least productive war. Biden lost this all by himself.
Trump started the withdrawal from Afghanistan and I praise him for that. Biden carried it out, and although we can sure gripe about how poorly it was done, I praise him for that too. There was no winning that war. If we want a primary party to blame, it's the Bush administration who started it.
Trump started the withdrawal from Afghanistan and I praise him for that.
Agreed.
Biden carried it out, and although we can sure gripe about how poorly it was done, I praise him for that too.
That's not allowed. Everything Biden does is bad. Doesn't matter what it is. If he does something right then someone else gets the credit. Just how everything Trump did wrong was the fault of someone else.
Biden botched the shit out of leaving Afghanistan. Biden unilaterally extended the exit deadline so he could have an ego boosting presser in country on Sept 11. Unlike MSM and NPCs in the US, the Taliban didn’t care and proceeded with the original May 1 withdraw deadline.
Failing to provide a comprehensive withdraw program, Biden allowed hundreds of high risk prisoners to walk free from Bagram. Biden allowed tens of billions of dollars in materiel to be transferred to the government that he voted to go to war against. Biden then chastised a reporter when they asked about the Taliban taking Afghanistan/Kabul. That was just a few days before that occurred. He was chilling at Camp David when that went down. Keep giving him a feee pass because of #feelingz.
Leaving Afghanistan was not going to be a feel good moment for the US. Biden turned it from a somber day to a complete shit show. Western European allies openly criticized Biden including Macron and Merkel.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
We were all talking about it in real time.
So did, of all publications, the WaPo. I wonder if that link is still out there?
FFS sarc, MSM reporters were challenging Biden on it before it played out. China had advisors meeting with the Taliban a month plus before.
Everybody but you, Mike and Biden had the memo months before.
FFS Chumby, I have agreed with you that Biden made it worse. Hello? McFly? That doesn't equal defeat, nor is it proof that the withdrawal would have gone fine otherwise.
Yet you felt the need to defend him still.
FFS sarc, “Hindsight is 20/20.” Hindsight wasn’t needed. The info was available to the public prior to what occurred. Biden ignored it.
This wasn’t a B- or C+. Biden got an F.
How many times do I have to agree with you before it sinks in? Yeah, Biden fucked it up. I've said that a half a dozen times now.
All I'm saying is that his making it worse isn't proof that it would have gone swell otherwise.
Droolin' Joe should have gotten a 2X4 applied to his head.
sarc,
On a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is the absolute worst and 10 being exemplary, what number grade do you give Biden on exiting Afghanistan?
Everyone would have failed chumby, so Biden is blameless.
It was really fucking obvious what was going to happen. Was it not to you?
"...Biden carried it out, and although we can sure gripe about how poorly it was done, I praise him for that too..."
Praise droolin' Joe for causing uncounted deaths for a photo-op? Shame on you.
The praise is for finally allowing the war to end. Maybe Trump waited 4 years because he knew how bad it would look for him and we needed a drooling-dementia-decider to finally make that mistake. Joe did what Trump was afraid to do. He probably did it out of stupidity and wanting a photo op, but I'll take it. There wasn't good way out, just like Vietnam. And the alternative was more uncounted deaths before the pullout uncounted deaths.
I’m not sure how you can say he was afraid to do it since he set a date for the e withdrawl, obviously expecting to win reelection…
Good point. You got me there.
I will concede that it would have been nice for him to negotiate the withdraw several years earlier.
In fairness, that may not have been possible. Negotiations take time and that's assuming you can bring the other party to the table. So, Trump had to:
-"Convince" the Taliban to negotiate
-Have the negotiations
-Prepare the logistics of the withdrawal.
And while that was going on, he had to deal with all the other shit presidents have to deal with alongside a less than cooperative military command.
Fair enough.
A lot of people in our government did not want us to leave Afghanistan. They did not help.
Instead of adhering to the previously arranged withdraw timetable and actually come up with something cogent, Biden freestyled and came up with his own plan. Biden’s plan manifested in transferring tens of billions of dollars in military equipment to the Taliban who senator Biden originally voted to go to war against (AUMF), Biden’s plan involved allowing hundreds of high risk prisoners to escape when he abandoned Bagram in the middle of the night and then Biden’s plan involved no plan to actually exit - the Taliban was taking Kabul while Biden was in a presser saying it would never happen. Senator Biden voted for it then helped fund it. VP Biden spent 8 years helping to oversee it. Then potus Biden completely botched what should have been a straight forward exit. Biden did manage to drone strike murder 8 kids and an aid worker.
He fucked up the withdrawal, sure. Though I doubt it would have gone well no matter who was in charge.
He fucked up the entire management while potus that included a botched withdraw of biblical proportions. British parliament censured him for how poorly his fuckup negatively impacted the Brits that had been there supporting the US.
Two days after Kabul fell, Biden even had the temerity to tell a reporter “That was four days ago” why are we still talking about that?
How many times do I have to agree with you before you shut up? Yes Biden fucked it up and made it worse. That doesn't mean it would have gone well otherwise.
I’m not taking the Tony “perfect alternative” fallacy. It wasn’t going to be a “spike the football” moment for the nation. Had it been Obama or Bill Clinton, I believe it would have played out significantly better. Biden’s focus was on his press conference and believing that the Taliban would abide by his wishes the way MSM had been.
He tried to align it with the 9/11 celebration. One of the dumbest military moves in history.
Alright. I've got better things to do today than agree with someone who insists that I disagree no matter how many fucking times I say it.
You literally defended him by claiming everyone would have fucked it up like him.
How retarded are you?
You’re not agreeing with me. You are making a slight concession that it could have been done better versus botcher Biden completely fucking the shit out of it.
I’ll translate for Sarc.
“I got spanked hard in this argument so now I’m going to run away.”
What a pathetic little bitch.
How many times do you have to say "but everyone else would have fucked up to" as a defense of him?
There is a reason for the season where the original withdrawal date. Fighting is far less during the cold winter periods. Biden moves it to spring and summer.
There is a reason generals said to close bases last, not before major cities had been evacuated.
There is a reason trump had a policy of attacking any advancement during the withdrawal that Biden didn't follow.
Everyone would not have withdrew like Biden, but you assertion above is they would have.
Can you say "In Afghanistan, Biden was worse than Trump"?
What's worse?
A SLOPPY PULLOUT! or four years of troop losses and massive costs?
Gotta go with four years of troop losses and massive costs.
Fatass Donnie loses on that too.
Senator Biden voted to go in and then spent eight years as assistant manager helping to oversee that debacle. Only Bush and Cheney have more stink on them than botcher Biden.
Biden was one of over 70 Senators to vote for the AUMF after the Bushpigs forced Colin Powell to lie to the UN about WMD.
Dubya grew to despise Cheney for his WMD lies and role in this disaster. Biden was a bit actor.
Dubya left office with an all-time low 22% approval rating. That is his legacy. Of course he left amid a financial collapse and $1.3 trillion deficits.
Donnie ranks at the bottom of presidents but Dubya was worse.
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/560926-trump-ranked-fourth-from-worst-in-c-spans-2021-presidential-rankings/
So congress matters to protect Joe. Doesn't matter when discussing government spending. Can you try to be consistent?
Jesse, you moron, a Senator has just one vote of 100 while a POTUS has a vote equal to the entire Senate and House.
For the 100th time Mitch and Donnie = two votes and Nancy = one vote.
Two votes beats one vote every time.
But the CARES Act got all THREE.
Biden and W were in agreement on this. Biden got paid for 8 years to be the assistant manager for this. I agree that W and Cheney were the worst but Biden comes in third. The complete lack of awareness regarding Afghanistan after he became the head honcho was an epic fail. Talking down to reporters at pressers who brought up facts. Joe couldn’t have any of that and instead just focused on his Sept 11 photo op gala.
Biden voted for Iraq and Afghanistan, helped oversee those disasters as VP then had one of the worst withdraws in US history due to his ineptitude and ego. Now he’s going back for more with $100B+ going to the most corrupt regime on the planet (western media’s monicker circa Dec 2021) with no game plan.
It took the CiC of the most expensive military on the planet, even accounting for him transferring tens of billions in materiel to his enemy the Taliban, multiple days yo decide to shoot down a military balloon from an adversarial nation that was over the US including the nuclear triad.
Have you come to a conclusion why you think you have your urges?
Fuck you shrike, this thread isn’t about Iraq, it’s about Afghanistan.
Oh and doubly fuck you since you support all those neocons after they started eating Democrat ass.
So you still don't understand congress' role in the budget process. Thanks for admitting that shrike.
A president can't over rule a veto proof majority.
Shrike, just kill yourself. You’re a child molesting Marxist.
Biden delayed the withdrawal...
Defend Biden at all costs.
Sloppy Pluggo is critical of both sides, except for one of them.
"That doesn’t mean it would have gone well otherwise."
Prove it.
Though I doubt it would have gone well no matter who was in charge.
I thought hindsight was 20/20?
This is defending Biden. Youre saying he fucked up, but everyone would have. This is a defense without rational analysis. It absolved biden of all fault. You are defending Biden.
I am sure sarc admits that it was a SLOPPY PULLOUT!
It was. Probably the worst plan anyone could have implemented.
Yeah, but so what?
Turns out despite all the caterwauling by Republicans no one gave a shit about it when they voted in 2022.
The price of spittin' tobacky was literally more important.
Even if nobody really gave a shit it was still a horrible disaster. It isn't only wrong if Americans are paying attention.
In geopolitical terns it was not a horrible disaster. Thirteen US troops died.
Iraq War was a horrible disaster. 4500 dead US soldiers?
You decietful fucking neocon wretch. A disaster isn’t measured in American troop deaths.
Look at how it left both the foreign and Afghan allies. People were falling from aircraft. It was so terrible six allied countries made official complaints and for the first time ever in American history the British House of Commons censured a US president for it.
The Taliban were handed the whole country rather than abiding by the rule sharing agreement Trump had negotiated and are killing people even now.
In geopolitical terms every single aspect of it was a disaster.
This is why it’s no hyperbole to call Shrike “evil”, folks. Fucking neocon DNC shill.
He doesn’t care. Shrike is a vicious sociopath only interested in raping small children.
Amd he compares an entire war to one thing Biden needlessly did.
" Senator Biden voted for it then helped fund it. "
According to Woodward's book Biden was about the only one in the Obama cabinet keen to get out of Afghanistan. Obama was in thrall to the military who wanted indefinite engagement there.
"Then potus Biden completely botched what should have been a straight forward exit. "
Lose a war and a 'straight forward exit' is simply not in the cards. In Afghanistan, the military managed to leave a few precious cases of night vision goggles behind. (It's worth noting that when the Taliban marched into Kabul, they did so in broad daylight.)
Obama was CiC and Biden was his right hand man. The Nuremberg trials saw a lot of “I was just following orders.” If I was the #2 guy for that mess over eight years, having voted to make it originally happen even with the exit notwithstanding, pretending none of that happened, I’d try to distance myself from it as well.
Tens of billions of dollars of materiel ≠ a few night vision goggles. If you think otherwise, I’ll send you a few night vision goggles in exchange for you sending me $70B. Deal?
"Obama was CiC and Biden was his right hand man. "
I'm not disputing that. I'm telling you that Woodward tells us that Biden was essentially the only one pushing for withdrawal in Obama's cabinet.
"Tens of billions of dollars of materiel ≠ a few night vision goggles."
Are you now arguing that the US should have stayed longer to pack up and return all the junk that accumulated over 20 years?
Biden voting for it then unilaterally extending the exit deadline so he could have a photo op moment is incongruent with Woodward.
Option 3: develop then implement a cohesive plan to exit Afghanistan that included returning tens of billions of dollars of taxpayer (and money printer) funded assets way before when the Taliban had Kabul surrounded. When Biden had forced leave Bagram, they just walked away under the cover of darkness. Our western European Allies were shocked. There was no communication there as was the case at the end in Kabul.
"Biden voting for it then unilaterally extending the exit deadline so he could have a photo op moment is incongruent with Woodward. "
Woodward wrote the book before the Afghan withdrawal. He's referring to his time as VP to Obama, not before or after.
"Option 3: develop then implement a cohesive plan to exit Afghanistan "
This was never in the cards. Obama initiated talks with the Taliban in Doha over the objections of the Kabul government which wasn't party to the negotiations. This continued under Trump and Biden. A plan that brought everyone to the table and satisfied everyone would have prolonged the withdrawal undoubtedly by more than a few months.
"Our western European Allies were shocked."
The smart ones, like the Canadians, were already long gone.
People are not 100% consistent. I’m certainly not. Biden’s actions as senator and later as potus are inconsistent with what Woodard wrote.
It was in the cards to do a decent job leaving except that the manager was an inept idiot.
The US and the Taliban had an agreement. Biden unilaterally extended it so he could have a presser there to stroke his ego.
Merkel and Macron publicly criticized Biden. British parliament found him in contempt. I agree that no nation should trust the US, particularly when the potus is someone like Biden.
"It was in the cards to do a decent job leaving except that the manager was an inept idiot."
I'm not convinced an intelligent leader could have done any better. Under intelligent leadership the US wouldn't have invaded in the first place or, if they did, left weeks later after the Taliban was routed.
"Biden unilaterally extended it so he could have a presser there to stroke his ego."
That's more than any of his predecessors can boast. He withdrew. The others escalated.
"Merkel and Macron publicly criticized Biden."
They both seem to be decent people with integrity and intelligence.
Biden voted to go in then helped manage the store for 8 years while we were there. If you are implying that Biden is not intelligent, I agree with you.
Amazon likely moves more things in a week than Biden needed to move in half a year. Biden voted to go in and then spent 8 years as assistant to the manager. We weren’t staying forever. If he cared, there was ample time to have either demanded that as part of the legislature or later as part of the executive branch.
Trump negotiated the withdraw. Biden botched it into a phrenetic abandonment.
The duopoly of Merkel and Trump were effective at having meaningful dialogue with Moscow.
Scholz and Biden are like the B team Walmart greeters.
" If you are implying that Biden is not intelligent, I agree with you."
Biden is likely to be above average in intelligence. Not that it makes any difference. Intelligent leaders do stupid things all the time.
"Amazon likely moves more things in a week than Biden needed to move in half a year. "
Any leader could have overseen the withdrawal from Afghanistan. Bush and Obama had 8 years. Trump, 4. Biden had them out before his first year was over. It's a pity about all those night goggles, I agree, but staying a few extra years to collect all the garbage accumulated, with no hope in winning an already lost war, is not worth the candle. Biden did the decent thing and withdrew the troops. You want to quibble over the details like a miserable partisan, that's your perogative.
No, Biden has an IQ of 95 tops, on his best day. Two aneurysm surgeries and decades of aging later he is a shadow even of that.
Biden abandoned civilians there due to a lack of a plan to get them out. He even had to buy gasoline from the Taliban to fly some planes out.
Biden abandoned Afghans that had been helping the US since the time Biden voted to go in.
Biden had the military walk away from the two runway and easier to defend Bagram for the single runway airfield in Kabul. The prison at Bagram that Biden walked away from had hundreds of high profile prisoners. CNBC reported one of the prisoners was behind the terrorist attack at Kabul airport that killed many including a dozen US servicemen. Remember that when the bodies of those soldiers came back and Biden honored them by checking his watch.
Trump negotiated the deadline. Biden didn’t as a “yeay” vote senator nor did he as VP. As potus, he extended the deadline so he could have a photo op. Disaster ensued. Tens of billions of dollars. Biden wants an assault weapons ban in the US and donates tens of billions of weapons to the government he voted to wage a war against.
I am a partisan American and find it unacceptable that such a poor leader was in charge focusing solely on a photo op. What was even worse was when Biden drone strike murdered the eight kids and aid worker. Biden should face a war crime trial in Kabul.
The Afghanistan debacle in order was due to Bush, Cheney, Biden then others.
“The prison at Bagram that Biden walked away from had hundreds of high profile prisoners. CNBC reported one of the prisoners was behind the terrorist attack at Kabul airport that killed many including a dozen US servicemen. ”
These problems wouldn’t have been made any easier to deal with if the withdrawal took place at the time Trump envisioned. Biden is a career politician, perhaps the longest of any in American history. I don’t think he served a day in the military, and issues like gas needs are the province of a officer in logistics. Not the president who delegates almost everything to a staff which extends to a million man professional military with its own universities, hospitals, golf courses and marching bands. Blaming this on Biden is wrong headed. Sure, he has to shoulder some of the responsibility. Like the officer in Full Metal Jacket said, it’s a big shit sandwich and we all have to take a bite. (Though Biden deserves to take a bigger bite than me, for example.)
Biden was the boss and the boss had no plan. Those that fail to plan will plan to fail. And it was a failure. He also had no contingency plan. When the Taliban was taking large swaths of Afghanistan and Biden was questioned about it by the MSM, he just talked down to them staying that the Taliban would not take Kabul. Iirc, it was that same week that SoS Blinken made the statement that this would not be like Vietnam. Then a few days later, a twin photo of the fall of Saigon but in Kabul goes around the world. We also got to see the video in Kabul of some guy falling from an airplane.
This wasn’t a dormant volcano that suddenly erupted - a logical exit from Afghanistan was foreign policy priority numero uno.
The aftermath included Biden disrespecting the bodies of the US servicemen when their caskets returned to the US. Had Biden stayed at Bagram, they would still be alive. Having twice the number of runways would have facilitated a better exit. Niden was too busy for that instead taking a powder at Camp David.
The best was when he was asked two days after the clusterfuck where he remarked, “That was four days ago.” trying to dismiss it as old news.
I wonder whether such poor leadership was a factor in Putin approving the SMO in Ukraine. It was clear there was a dunce in charge.
It does not appear that Biden has an endgame plan for Ukraine. Slava Z reported that Kiev was willing to negotiate with Moscow just prior to the SMO but that got shotdown. Kiev also wanted to talk following the drone strikes but Biden again said no. The Pentagon has recommended the White House entertain talks but Biden again rejected this; Milley came out and made the statement regarding the need to negotiate a peace.
"Those that fail to plan will plan to fail. And it was a failure. "
You can make plan after plan but you still get punched in the mouth, to quote Mike Tyson. The US lost the war. The victors get to set the terms, ultimately. Next time if you want to do a withdrawal with everything going smoothly to plan, try winning. It'll make all the difference.
There was no coherent plan due to Biden. When the Taliban started taking territory and moving to Kabul, Biden ignored it. Biden kept ignoring it even when the sycophant MSM asked him about it. It wasn’t until the Taliban had taken most of the country and they were on the outskirts of Kabul did he begin to start working in it. The US needed a competent leader instead of the egotistical idiot Biden. The US did lose the war. Biden lost the withdraw and botched it into a rushed abandonment.
"When the Taliban started taking territory and moving to Kabul, Biden ignored it. "
Your problem is you misunderstand the nature of the situation. By the time the withdrawal came around, Taliban wasn't the enemy. ISIS was. It was ISIS that perpetrated the terror incident at the airport just before the withdrawal. Taliban were also there working shoulder to shoulder, figuratively at least, with US troops providing security. Civilians died, US personnel died and Taliban militia men died along side them. Your hand wringing over Taliban having the nerve to supply US with gas is misplaced.
I have never been a fan of Biden and there's a lot I dislike about him, but for us anti-war types, he might be the best thing on offer. He has the right instincts on Yemen for example:
"hen Joe Biden included ending the war in Yemen as a key goal during his first foreign policy speech as president, he was breaking with his predecessors. Donald Trump had backed the Saudis and Emiratis, even using a presidential veto to stymie a congressional attempt to end U.S. involvement in the war. When Mohammed bin Salman, then Saudi defense minister, launched his military intervention in Yemen 2015, Barack Obama decided to provide assistance — a Faustian bargain aimed (unsuccessfully) at tempering Saudi criticism of the Iran nuclear deal. Biden’s decision to prioritize Yemen by appointing a special envoy — as well as reversing Trump’s designation just before leaving office of the Houthis as a foreign terrorist organization — raised hopes that a greater emphasis on diplomacy from the U.S. might finally move the devastating war towards resolution. Yet almost eight months later, little has changed."
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/09/16/bidens-broken-promise-on-yemen/
Whether he has the smarts and resolve to make his instincts a reality is in doubt, as Saudis don't seem to be in the mood to be pushed around by Uncle Sam when Russia and China are knocking at the door.
The ISIS plotter of the terror attack had been in Bagram airfield prison but Biden abandoned that on July 4 (without telling any of the allies!).
Biden saber rattled against the US population. He’s moving chips in for Taiwan (not part of the US). He’s engaged in a proxy war with the world’s biggest nuclear power in their own backyard ostensibly over some bioweapons labs and questionable payments to politicians’ kids. Even Milley is pushing for negotiations but “dove” Biden will have nothing of it.
Biden voted for Iraq.
Biden voted for Afghanistan.
He is a neocon’s wet dream.
Given the character of some of our “allies” in Ukraine, we will be lucky if we don’t get blowback from that disaster. Absent of any other negative unintended consequences.
On a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being horrible and 10 being great, how do you rate Biden’s handling of the Afghanistan withdraw?
"On a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being horrible and 10 being great, how do you rate Biden’s handling of the Afghanistan withdraw?"
I'd give a 9. The entire army was withdrawn rather quickly with minimal casualties. A good example of a withdrawal from Afghanistan with a rating of 1 would be the British in 1842. The entire army with its retinue of hangers-oners were wiped out leaving one military doctor surviving to tell the tale. Arthur Conan Doyle used him as a model for Dr John Watson in his Sherlock Holmes stories.
"On January 6, 1842, the British began their withdrawal from Kabul. About 4,500 British troops and 12,000 civilians who had followed the British Army to Kabul left the city. The plan was to march to Jalalabad, about 90 miles away.
The retreat in the brutally cold weather took an immediate toll, and many died from exposure in the first days. And despite the treaty, the British column came under attack when it reached a mountain pass, the Khurd Kabul. The retreat became a massacre."
Not for nothing is Afghanistan called the graveyard of empires.
I rated it a 1.2. Elements of the army weren’t captured and Biden didn’t transfer nuclear weapons. So there was space below to fall further.
"...Lose a war and a ‘straight forward exit’ is simply not in the cards..."
One more argument from ignorance, but what do you expect?
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
"Spouting nonsense is an end in itself."
Yup there it is. Chumby is simply anti-Biden. So we can discount whatever he says when he claims to be standing on libertarian principle. He's just using libertarian principle as a facade to justify his anti-Biden position. The moment that libertarian principle would demand that he support Biden on some thing, he will conveniently toss principle aside. Such as, say, pardoning imprisoned pot users. Or ending the Title 42 restrictions on migration (which Team Red now wants to keep in place).
We now know why neither Obama nor Trump ended the war in Afghanistan: because the "Afghan Army" was an entire fiction made possible only by the continued presence of the US military. The moment the military left, the fiction ended, and the person in charge revealing the fiction would be the one blamed. We obviously know why Trump set the date to end the war to be just after his assumed second inauguration: so as not to jeopardize his re-election chances. Obama deserves more blame, because he didn't have to worry about re-election in his second term and yet he didn't do it either.
After 6 years of being virulently Anti-Trump, the fact that you’re not Anti-Biden means your opinions on both aren’t really worth much.
I'm not anti-Biden the person. I'm opposed to many of his policies, but I think he's a decent enough human being (even if he is a bit senile). Same with Obama, or Bush, or Romney for that matter. Even DeSantis, whose policies I strongly dislike for the most part, appears to have served honorably in the military and is devoted to his family.
But not Trump. Trump really is a disgusting human being. My dislike for him is not based on policy, it is personal. He could have the policy positions of Milton Friedman and I still wouldn't vote for him. His resume of horrible personal behavior is well known at this point, but the biggest one that stands out for me is that he does everything that he does in order to inflate HIMSELF. He was a Democrat when being a Democrat would win him loyal praise from a devoted base of followers, and now he's a Republican when being a Republican wins him loyal praise from a devoted base of followers. He has no principles, morals or shame. Everything in his life is in service of his own ego and his own interests.
But not Trump. Trump really is a disgusting human being. My dislike for him is not based on policy, it is personal. He could have the policy positions of Milton Friedman and I still wouldn’t vote for him
It's insane to have spent so long railing against people who use the term "TDS" and then openly admit to having it.
Lol. He doesn't even realize I did it im sure. He will deny it and rationalize it meant something else later.
But also bookmarked.
This one really deserves a hallowed place in the annals of self-owns. "I would refuse to support him even if he was a beacon of libertarianism!" Such a creature of tribalism.
Tribalism is the OPPOSITE. Tribalism is to support a person from one's tribe REGARDLESS of moral character or personal faults. That is what I notably DIDN'T do. That is what all of the Trump apologists around here DID do but won't fess up to it.
Groomer Jeffy, you are one of the biggest tribalism’s here. Period.
It is not derangement to have aversion to a cretinous person.
I used to wonder how Trump fans could not get that, and I saw their behavior in this forum and realized they have a genuine blind spot when it comes to the value of civil interaction.
I have personally had “TDS” from years before his presidency when I read about his treatment of Vera Coking in the pages of Reason magazine.
He’s not the only politician I have such feelings about: Ted Cruz, for example, is a spineless weasel; Hillary Clinton has the most opposite of a charismatic personality ever (and used to be friends with Trump).
#feelingz over facts
And this highlights the reason why the leftists here cannot reconcile things with the libertarians. It is not about impartial truth but instead about the leftists’ emotions.
And now Mike admits to TDS.
Good to know that Jesse would vote for Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy for president if they espoused his perfect political positions.
LOL
It is ironic, isn't it, that the same people who now claim that we both have "TDS" because we both very rationally object to voting for an immoral demagogue to hold great power, are the same ones who will use very non-policy-oriented, very personal reasons to object to the people that THEY don't like?
For example, how many times do we have to hear that Biden is corrupt? Whether or not it is true, that is not a policy reason to object to Biden. That is a matter of character and judgment.
And I am totally fine with them objecting to Biden, or anyone, on the basis of poor moral character alone. That is not "derangement" or irrational. That is using sound judgment.
But when we object to voting for Trump on the basis of HIS poor moral character, then that becomes "irrational derangement". Huh.
“TDS” is the equivalent of a child putting their fingers in their ears and saying, “Nah nah nah I can’t hear you.”
Like when Dee mutes people?
That's not "TDS", there's nothing deranged about refusing to support a person whom one believes is morally unfit and unworthy to hold power. Because, ONCE AGAIN, in this country, we do not vote for abstract policy positions. We vote for individual flawed human beings, who, when elected, must make important decisions on unforeseen issues and crises. And the only yardstick that we have to measure a candidate on whether or not they will exercise sound judgment on these issues is to assess their character. Those who lack sufficient character to make sound judgments shouldn't be elected, regardless of their policy positions.
And guess what, we all saw Trump's lack of character and lack of sound judgment on display in 2020. No one could have reasonably predicted in 2016 we would have suffered a global pandemic four years later. No one asked Candidate Trump in 2016 what his policy positions were on what to do in the event of a global pandemic. Because no one saw it coming. And so, when that pandemic did arrive, we could only have faith in Trump's "sound judgment" (ha!) on what to do. And we saw that Trump was completely feckless on the matter, when he wasn't letting bureaucrats like Fauci lead him around by the nose, he was downplaying the disease and even giving harmful advice, because to do otherwise would make him look bad. That is what happens when you vote on pure policy alone and ignore the moral character of a candidate.
Biden raped his daughter in the shower when he was a little girl. But then, you’ve telegraphed enthusiasm for grooming children. So you certainly approve of what he did.
Oh, and a few years after that, he raped one of his staffers.
I think that might qualify as a libellous statement...
You're "judgment proof", I imagine?
"He has no principles, morals or shame. Everything in his life is in service of his own ego and his own interests."
I think Trump's anti-war sentiments are sincerely but not deeply held. I remember in a Republic debate in South Carolina he braved the booing of an audience while criticizing the military. That took guts and courage. Too bad his sentiments didn't extend as far as Yemen, whose situation only worsened during his tenure.
Interesting idea of why Trump set the date past his term. It shows weakness and a lack of understanding of the public's urge to finish the war. Wouldn't be the first president to needlessly extend a war for political expediency.
The Afghans have a quiescent period that ends about May 1. That deadline provided enough time for a competent leader to remove all soldiers, civilians and any employed Afghans as well as the equipment in an orderly manner.
The next potus did extend this to get a selfie that he thought would make good copy.
"The next potus did extend this to get a selfie that he thought would make good copy."
You've really taken this talking point to heart, haven't you? Is that really your final argument? Speculation on BIden's motives? And I'm to believe it on the strength of your mindreading skills? No thanks.
That was his goal. Biden set the date for that purpose. Keep shitposting.
"That was his goal. "
You really believe that, don't you. At first I assumed you were just parroting partisan slurs. I'm beginning to believe that you believe that. And yet you haven't produced a shred of evidence to support the idea.
Biden set that date. The announcement was April 13, 2021. Most news organizations reported it that day or the following.
So wars started and prosecuted by Republican Presidents were really Hillary's (and Biden's and Carter's) fault?
You have to remember Rule #1 of the Reason Comment Board:
Democrats are always wrong, and also monstrously evil.
Republicans are occasionally wrong, but when they are wrong, they are merely misguided and have good intentions.
Nice try, Shrike. We know it’s you; fess up.
But we did get rid of a secular, Westernized, brutal dictator in an area of the world known for religious, West-hating, brutal dictators so there's that. And Assad and Syria are next, boyo!
Just think of what we could do in Russia if we got rid of Putin.
Ackshuhally, the Ba'athist Constitution of Iraq required that the Head of State be a Muslim. Ditto with the Ba'athist Constitution of Syria. Not so "Secular."
Great.
Now do Ukraine.
Reason will two years after it isn’t a political liability to the left.
Once the facts change.
After Robby has certified the facts.
You'd want them to do The Confederacy.
Fuck Off, Ku Klux Krud!
And what's not mentioned in the article is that most, if not all of these neocons now support Biden and his adventures in Ukraine. Not one word is mentioned to how and why the neocons suddenly stopped being of the Republican Party and now are of the Democratic Party.
Don't forget the inconvenient truth that Reason's current editor in chief used to work for Bill Kristol's The Weekly Standard.
That might explain quite a bit about the direction Reason has taken.
Like the required Ukraine flags and stickers around the Reason office?
Remember when The Weekly Standard was absolute anathema both across the comments section spectrum and among staff writers alike at Reason?
Yeah it's pretty easy to oppose a war that happened 20 years ago. "Iraq was a big mistake" isn't exactly a controversial position. But when the MIC pulled out all of the stops to drive Trump out of the white house Reason played right along. He had a deal done to withdraw from Afghanistan but Reason went all in for Biden who immediately fucked it up. Now the neocons have exactly what they always wanted, a proxy war with Russia. MIC business is booming and all of the right people are getting paid. I came here and predicted this outcome before the election. It was obvious that the primary reason that Trump was driven out of office was that he was a threat to the "endless wars" that Reason now bemoans. When Bill Kristol "conservatives" run the Lincoln Project and endorse Joe Biden and join the Democrats it's no mystery which candidate the War Party prefers. But as usual Reason is blissfully unaware of the disaster they helped create. Maybe 20 years from now we'll get an article about how that WW3 thing was a big mistake.
but Reason went all in for Biden
Damn straight! Nobody ever votes against who they consider to be the greater of two evils unless they agree 100% with the one they reluctantly settle on! You're so smart!
So your claim here is Biden is better than Trump. Says a lot about you.
Two evils, huh?
Maybe Sarcasmic can tell us something one thing that Trump did that was worse than anything Biden has done.
Just one.
Doesn't even need a cite.
Just give an example.
His tweets are meaner. But to be fair, there is no way Biden is capable of composing and sending his own tweets. His tablet is almost certainly a staffer’s kid’s Etch-a-Sketch.
I dont remember trump calling half the country Ultra MAGA terrorists.
Bingo.
Trump's tweets were nowhere near as vile, divisive, and mean as the Biden admin's routinely are.
Don't forget all the other reasons that Trump had to go. In general, he challenged all the socio-political norms and entrenched power factions. Plus he made all the snowflakes sad.
And mean tweets.
Meanwhile socio political norms changed by the left are fine. Don't fight back.
Where are all the bleating baby bovines braying at how only leftists criticize Republicans?
Bovines aren't known for bleating, that's caprines.
Details, details.
You strike me as someone who ends up getting 86’d out of every bar he visits.
In your head.
Did you even bother to read the article, sarc? TL;DR for you: it's about the Iraq War, and the primary players are the Bush Admin and the neocons. Now, even though you claim to mute me, which party do most of the neocons who started the war in Iraq currently champion?
I muted you so I could read threads without the clutter of your childish taunts. Not for being an asshat with nothing to offer to a conversation but personal attacks. They're on permamute.
To answer your question, last I checked they were still Republicans. Unless you mean they left the party when Trump trashed it.
So you muted him (or her, don't want to assume genders here) in order to avoid his childish taunts, but then clearly unmuted him just so you could read his comment? Did you re-mute him afterward? Seems like a lot of wasted effort. Why bother muting him if you're just going to read his comments anyway?
You clearly don't understand the concept of cluttering up the comments. And you also don't understand the difference between temporarily muting someone to clear up the clutter and permanently muting people who never add anything of value to a conversation.
That or you're being intentionally obtuse.
LOL
I've only ever muted one non-bot user here, and I have no desire to ever read that user's unhinged scribblings.
Stormy Daniels Humpty Dumpty Trumpty 230 ARRRRRGGGGHHHH
One time—true story—I had the audacity to mute one of my betters. Clinger that I am, I simply carried on from there!
Does he talk about someone named Tim who is supposed to be quite enchanting?
Squirrel would likely swallow both a European and an African.
Both were cumming for him.
He asked which party they currently side with. See kristol, Lincoln party, Cheney, etc. Hint. It is the same side you have defended since 2016.
Still haven’t seen the answer yet from him.
Instead, President Joe Biden declared in November 2022 that "we're gonna free Iran!"
This single quote should be well worth an article on its own, but it's just left hanging there, rotting its fruit on the vine.
Iran? Meh. The real fun will start in Taiwan.
WW3 is beginning and we have this senile criminal at the helm. Being puppeteered by the most incapable Marxist democrats of the entire party. And these faggots are still shilling for him. If it’s the apocalypse, and I survive the initial onslaught, I will hunt democrats for their stuff. No democrat will deserve to live if Biden destroys the world.
"As it turned out, neither the U.S. military mission nor the broader cause of liberty and peace were accomplished by May 2003, nor were they in the months and years to follow."
But W got to prove to his daddy that he was a real man now.
“But W got to prove to his daddy that he was a real man now.”
SIGH….That’s what WHEATIES are for!!
Please, no! I wouldn't want to look at that on my breakfast table!
What's really concerning here is how well Democrats succeeded in rewriting history as evidenced by the above article. SH did in fact have WMDs. He used mustard gas and nerve agent in the Anfal campaign in 1988 and who knows where/when else. Iraqis were truly terrified of him. Instead of blabbering about how much of the Iraq war was a waste why not ask what happened to them? (Hint: probably buried in the desert somewhere.) Even more concerning is the constant force-feeding and history books showing "no WMDs". There is an entire generation out there that has no idea SH had in fact used WMDs.
Poison gas is a chemical weapon, it's a weapon of modest destruction, not mass destruction. When the Omushinrikyo used nerve gas on the Tokyo transit system in 1995, 12 people lost their lives. When the US used atomic weapons in Japan in 1945, 10s of thousands of people were killed.
oh so it must have had minimal impact on Kurds thanks for clearing that up
Kurds only count as 3/5 of a person.
What about cheese Kurds?
They’re best when fried.
Better on poutine.
Cheese Kurds. Depends which whey they’re prepared
My Spidey-Senses are tingling!...
😉
Twelve vs eighty thousand. 12/80000
What a desperate, spurious argument. You really are a disingenuous idiot.
The M in WMD means mass. As in many casualties. That means weapons like atomic bombs. Not gas, rifles, knives or piano wire.
The US military and federal government considers NBC weapons as WMDs. Nuclear. Biological. Chemical. No matter your feelingz.
If you want to make the greater statement that Bush, Cheney, Biden, Hillary et. al. should not have gone into Iraq due to new WMDs being manufactured (which they were not), I will completely agree with you. Iraq was not a direct threat to the US even though they may have had some old chemical shells that the US sold them.
"The US military and federal government considers NBC weapons as WMDs"
What a surprise! How convenient. They weren't lying because they believed their lies. George Costanza Bush.
You have reading comprehension problems. The US was not going to war over some old shells. The Bush admin claimed that new WMDs were being manufactured, they posed a threat to the US and that is why an invasion was needed. There were no new WMDs where the evidence had either been wishful thinking or pure fabrication. The US should have never gone in there.
" There were no new WMDs where the evidence had either been wishful thinking or pure fabrication."
The way I see it Saddam had disposed of his stock of chemical weapons in accordance with the international sanctions imposed on Iraq by Bush One. That seems the most plausible explanation. Hawks either simply couldn't believe this to be the case or cynically used public fear of bad things happening. Charges more recently of Syria using chemical weapons are just as dubious and also likely to be the product of American propaganda mills.
The invasion wasn’t about old stock.
Syria feels like a false flag by the west but it could have been as reported.
I'm glad you understand now that chemical weapons are not weapons of massive destruction. No weapons of massive destruction were found in Iraq. No chemical weapons were found in Iraq.
That’s some amazing rationalization.
Chemical weapons are considered weapons of mass destruction and their use in armed conflict is a violation of international law.
https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/Chemical-Weapons-Frequently-Asked-Questions
Mustard gas wasn’t an issue at all in ww2.
The CWC is the first disarmament agreement negotiated within a multilateral framework that provides for the elimination of an entire category of weapons of mass destruction under universally applied international control.
https://www.un.org/disarmament/wmd/chemical/
"Chemical weapons are considered weapons of mass destruction and their use in armed conflict is a violation of international law."
American police use poison gas in American cities routinely. The pentagon used this fact to justify their use in Vietnam.
The last significant use of chemical weapons was in 1995 in the Tokyo subway system. Twelve died. The last use of WMDs was in Nagasaki, Japan in 1945 when some forty thousand died.
Nothing changed since Vietnam?
A couple of lessons learned since the debacle in Vietnam. Bush green lighted the ‘purple finger’ elections that installed Iraq’s first democratically elected government, giving him a legitimate partner to negotiate with. Bush also negotiated a relatively quick withdrawal and end of hostilities which Obama followed through on. The system of government left behind is still largely intact. Effective neutralization of the ISIS threat with US, Iraqi, government and militia, Kurdish, Iranian militia (under Soleimani) etc cooperating, particularly in the relief of Mosul.
Regarding chemical weapons numb nuts.
Things are always changing. Is there a point you are trying to make? It's not clear to me.
Yes. Youre wrong by every interpretation of WMD and your rationalization is ignorant of basically everything.
"Youre wrong by every interpretation of WMD "
You mean the interpretations fed you by the likes of CNN, FOX and their neo con talking heads? Sad and pathetic.
I just posted anti war groups and the UN...
Terrible at this buddy.
Whats worse is him calling CNN neocon lol.
"...Is there a point you are trying to make? It’s not clear to me."
Willful ignorance is not a valid argument, numb nuts.
In your case, it is an autobiography, dipshit!
And whose sock are you, “Sevo is my bitch”? Shrike seems likely, might be a few others though.
“Chemical weapons are considered weapons of mass destruction and their use in armed conflict is a violation of international law.”
Followed by:
"American police use poison gas in American cities routinely. The pentagon used this fact to justify their use in Vietnam."
That is NOT an answer, but:
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
“Spouting nonsense is an end in itself.”
Only a lying shitbag like you tries to compare a very small, localized release of chi cal weapons with the dropping of a nuclear weapon. As if those anecdotes are comparable. Mustard gas caused approximately 120k casualties in WW1.
So STFU and take the L.
"Mustard gas caused approximately 120k casualties in WW1."
Artillery fire was responsible for half or more of the casualties. Ergo artillery is a WMD. Disease and machine guns took care of most of the rest.
You’re an irrelevant authority regarding the definition. As am I. To argue for a new definition here comes off as shitposting and detracts from the bigger issue of going into Iraq was wrong.
"You’re an irrelevant authority regarding the definition. "
I seem to be uniquely qualified in this company at least. I know the M stands for mass and mass means many.
Conflating gas and atomic bombs under the rubric of WMD is purely a propaganda move to scare people into supporting the war. You shouldn't fall for it, or dismiss it as meaningless.
Take it up the DoD, DHS and the White House.
"Take it up the DoD, DHS and the White House."
Let me do the deep state first. I'll get around to those later.
I don’t care. Knock yourself out if you’d like.
On 16 March 1988, Iraq dropped bombs containing mustard gas, Sarin and Tabun on the Kurdish city of Halabja.
.
Estimates of the number of civilians killed range from 3,200 to 5,000, with many survivors suffering long-term health problems.
.
Chemical weapons were also used during Iraq's "Anfal" offensive - a seven-month scorched-earth campaign in which an estimated 50,000 to 100,000 Kurdish villagers were killed or disappeared, and hundreds of villages were razed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/02/iraq_events/html/chemical_warfare.stm
No widespread mass destruction.
No chemical weapons or weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/chemical-weapons-found-in-iraq-nyt-report-135347507.html
And.
https://www.cnn.com/2014/10/15/us/iraq-chemical-weapons
Correct. Iraq had them at one point because the US supplied them to their then ally Saddam. That photo of Rumsfeld with Saddam is still creepy. But that isn’t why Biden and Hillary voted to give Bush and Cheney the authority to use the military to overthrow that regime.
@mtrueman you’re either trolling or missing the point. I'm guessing either a college professor or a 15 year old
My point is that chemical weapons are not WMDs and neither were found in Iraq. You were incorrectly conflating them and I corrected you politely.
Really sad for humanity that you push that. Sarin gas is not a weapon of mass destruction? This just validates the point I made earlier.
"My point is that chemical weapons are not WMDs..."
My point is that C/Ws ARE WMDs, and everyone else agrees. YOU do not get to define words to suit your argument.
Except you improperly rationalized them by using a definition not accepted by anyone else.
"Really sad for humanity that you push that."
What's sadder is that you feel compelled to push these neo con talking points 20 years after the fact. The neo cons were the originators of the chemical weapons are WMD lie, and you're still carrying their water for them. Sad and pathetic.
@mtrueman and there it is ...i figured thats what it was getting to. Neocon talking points? Tell that to the Kurds.
The UN is neocon? All of europe?
"The UN is neocon? All of europe?"
Lessons learned. Twenty years too late, but lessons learned.
You didnt answer the question.
"You didnt answer the question."
As Leon Trotsky said, some questions answer themselves.
That you are ignorant of basically anything of importance?
With modern day academics it is indeed hard to tell.
‘Goalposts officially moved’
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|# “Spouting nonsense is an end in itself.”
Thanks for keeping up your rep asshole; fuck off and die.
He fits his name well, “misconstrueman” as he misconstrues the facts constantly.
Further, his assumption that everyone will accept his sophistry and outright lies is insulting.
Shut up, bitch!
Awww, Sevo has a stalker. How quaint.
And we have a sock! That isn’t you, is it, Shrike?
Shrike or SRG. Wait. Same person.
Given that democrats are a hive mind, they’re all the same person. And I use that word loosely. As marxists aren’t quite human.
Either way, it’s a Turd.
Who knows? He has so many darn socks!
The mtrueman show always leaves me praying for the next commercial break.
So the end justifies the lies? Some extremists from Saudi Arabia attacked the US, so invade Iraq?
Local use of chemical weapons is insufficient reason for the US to engage in a war or in regime change halfway around the world.
The implicit justification for the war was nuclear weapons, because that is the only kind of WMD that justifies any kind of action like this, since it has the potential to destabilize the entire region. (And even that is an iffy justification.)
US war mongers used “WMD” as weasel words so that they could cover their asses once their lies about Iraq and Saddam were exposed.
This.
BTW, turd lies.
Implicit? So Colin Powell was holding up a vial of implicit nuclear bomb?
The comment was the observation that for the last 20 years dems and their useful idiots have worked exceptionally hard to rewrite history to show "no WMD" which is false. And unfortunately, the above article reflects that.
There were certainly WMDs, the question is what happened to them?
Convoys to Iran were never accounted for.
No, he was holding up a fake prop, presenting fake intelligence, asking for acquiescence from the Security Council for a decision that had already been made.
Most nations can easily produce vials of anthrax or nerve gas of the form Powell held up. So, if that’s your criterion for invading and bombing countries, you simply want a carte blanche for invading/bombing anybody you desire.
Useful idiots for neocons and war mongers like you keep pretending that “WMDs” matter. The term “WMD” was a propaganda tool, nothing more.
War Monger? Resorting to name calling it never fails. You're getting off the point. I'm not saying we should / should not have invaded Iraq. I pointed out historical evidence that SH had in fact possessed and used WMDs, and that Dems and the media have and are still (as evidenced by some comments on here) willing to throw the people of Kurdistan into oblivion by rewriting history to get elected.
In context, the stated justification was that in possessing chemical weapons, Iraq was in violation of the terms of the 1991 cease fire and something like 17 UN resolutions relating to that. So we wouldn’t have used possession of chemical weapons by itself as a pretext for invading a country.
A couple of lessons learned since the debacle in Vietnam. Bush green lighted the 'purple finger' elections that installed Iraq's first democratically elected government, giving him a legitimate partner to negotiate with. Bush also negotiated a relatively quick withdrawal and end of hostilities which Obama followed through on. The system of government left behind is still largely intact. Effective neutralization of the ISIS threat with US, Iraqi, government and militia, Kurdish, Iranian militia (under Soleimani) etc cooperating, particularly in the relief of Mosul.
Here's a lesson regarding asshole here:
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
"Spouting nonsense is an end in itself."
If somebody digs up your flowerbed and you know who did it, it doesn't give you the right to remodel their neighbor's house, even if it looks better afterward.
I believe the resolution of the Iraq war was preferable to what happened with Vietnam, at least from an American perspective. Is that because lessons were learned? Maybe.
Ultimately, they’re better off without Saddam, and likely by now his evil sons, being in charge.
"Ultimately, they’re better off without Saddam, and likely by now his evil sons, being in charge."
They could be even better off if they removed Saddam themselves instead of having it done by armies of foreigners.
The US would have been far better off had Bush, Cheney, Biden, Hillary et. al. not decided to go into Iraq.
A lot of Americans made a lot of money out of the Iraq fiasco. War is a racket.
Would be interesting to see the stock portfolios of Bush, Cheney, Biden and Hillary leading up to the decision they all made to invade.
Too bad the same can't be said for the people.
"Too bad the same can’t be said for the people."
It's too bad.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/koch-political-machine-vows-fight-123030494.html
It wouldn't be so bad if they made a judgment call saying that DeSantis had a better chance than Trump.
But people who write our country must move past the current political situation—we’ve got to turn the page on the past several years, really want to go back to the war mongering, elitist, crony capitalist, progressivism-lite ways of people like McCain, Bush, and Romney. And this kind of thinking has infected the LP and "libertarian" magazines like Reason.
The things democratic socialists and progressives accuse libertarians and conservatives of? With the kinds of conservatives/libertarians the Koch brothers want to put in charge, their accusations are justified.
I'd rather vote for AOC and Bernie Sanders than for the kinds of politicians AFP supports; at least voting for explicit democratic socialists, the right people get blamed.
Sandra, the artist formerly known as OBL, has been telling us for years that Reason is an unapologetic mouthpiece for Charles Koch. For decades I read Reason and didn't give a shit about the Kochs. I paid for a subscription and assumed that the writers were independent voices that adhered to a political philosophy they called libertarian. I was cool with supporting that. Beginning in 2016 all of that changed dramatically. Every writer at Reason began to speak with a single voice regurgitating talking points which obviously come from a single source. From TDS to Covid vaccines to social media censorship to ignoring civil rights violations of J6 protesters to their collective disinterest in the proxy war in Ukraine to the daily rants about "populism". Reason serves the interests of the globalist elite and tries desperately to wrap it in what they continue to claim is something called libertarianism. As old man Koch slides into senility Reason follows like the lap dogs they are. I cannot call myself a libertarian if these people get to define the term.
It was in 2016-17 that David Koch basically retired and was confined to a hospital. His brother took over then. Charles has an apparent friendship with George Soros and a partnership with him in an NEO. Charles has also gone to the WEF whereas David probably wouldn’t have been caught dead there.
Old Reason covering Koch vs Crane over at CATO.
https://reason.com/2012/03/22/david-koch-blasts-ed-crane-bob-levy-and/
it's also true that if sadam has done as he was told none of that would have happened.
As soon as W decided he could out-war his daddy, Iraq was gonna get invaded no matter what Saddam did.
Everybody mentioned Ukraine, but the biggest foreign policy failure of the the year is definitely the Chinese spy balloon.
That was China’s response to Pelosi going to Taiwan. One bag of hot air in exchange for another.
How so?
I’d assume you are being sarcastic, since the Chinese balloon is a weird media freakout over a case of routine spying, but it’s hard to tell.
Wingnut.com is reporting that Biden is preparing terms of unconditional surrender to China.
Cite?
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
You should surrender to the GBI sex crimes unit.
That’s fiction. What isn’t fiction is the fact that you posted child porn links here.
Which you clicked on, apparently. Oops...
Do you know what sits in Montana for the military?
China has spy satellites. The ballon is a low tech way of delivering something much worse than taking pictures Beijing can already get. The balloon flew over the US nuclear triad.
It also has extra sensors beyond imagery. It can pick up things like radio waves and communication channels.
Hopefully someone more competent than Biden recovers and analyzes the instruments of they didn’t completely self destruct. The word from S2U was that the US had multiple jamming systems following the balloon so perhaps data couldn’t have been transmitted (after the Biden admin decided to do something).
If these are "routine spy balloons", we should shoot them down routinely.
Routine Spy Balloon sounds like Mostly Peaceful Protests
Most of the freak out has to do with Biden’s inaction in response to the balloon. It appears his owners finally gave permission for him to shoot it down.
My airspace was violated. VIOLATED!
#U2?
Mendacious in its beginnings, incompetent in its aftermath, and downright criminal in the death and civilizational wreckage it caused, the Iraq War was a catastrophe America has not yet properly reckoned with.
I recall the Team Red sycophants here declaring that no one could properly judge the war in Iraq for a couple of decades.
"John' - that stupid motherfucker even insisted that the Tomahawk missile Obama greenlighted for Libya was a "worse foreign policy decision than Iraq".
Unmentioned in this article by Doherty was how the US furiously tried to force Iraq to sign a Hydrocarbon Law that would have turned the Iraq oilfields over to BP, Chevron and Exxon in exchange for a single digit royalty.
Iraq rightly pissed on the Bushpigs all the way to the end.
Those were interesting times. I kind of miss being called an "America Hater" for opposing the Bushpigs and this disastrous war.
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Yet you never even attempt to address the fact that people like Bill Kristol and David "Axis of Evil" Frum and Jeffrey "Iraq / Al Qaeda Connection" Goldberg and Max Boot and Tom Nichols have realized the Democratic Party is now the most comfortable home for their ideology.
Or that, in every Presidential election since the Iraq War, your party has nominated a Presidential or VP candidate (or both) who voted for the war.
When it counted Democrats nominated an anti-Iraq War president in 2008 and 2012. And he was opposed to that war from the beginning.
Obama's 'Don't Do Stupid Shit' foreign policy was a breath of fresh libertarian air compared to the GOP chickenhawks.
And I support the Gridlock Party. I'm good with what we have now - GOP House and Dem Senate/POTUS. It is the only way no big new spending bills occur.
And yet, through most, if not all of his Presidency, Obama was in Iraq.
Three out of eight to be exact.
The military caravan pulled out completely in 2011.
Twas a CLEAN PULLOUT!
Remember, turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Are you denying that the US pulled out of Iraq in 2011?
And started many other engagements like Syria. I dont know why shrike pretends to not be a Democrat. He not only defends them constantly but praises them.
Sloppy Pluggo is critical of both major political parties, except for the Democrats.
Biden’s foreign policy was rudderless and without an smidgen of leadership. He also backed Marxists and the more extreme Muslim faction in every international situation. The traitor even flew the ChiCom flag over the WH in 2009.
As usual you show yourself to be a treasonous lying Marxist pedophile.
To be fair, many of the conservative commenters have clearly stated anti-war positions, at least in regard to Ukraine while there is a Democratic administration.
And John has been absent for a long time.
Reminder. Mike can call everyone else conservative but don't dare call him leftist.
while there is a Democratic administration
That is why we should never elect another GOP POTUS.
We get shit like No Child Left Behind, Medicare Welfare Drug Act, Homeowner $10,000 Gift Act, TARP, CARES Act, PPP, PATRIOT Act, Fatherland Security, AUMF, etc
Because Republicans are the grown-ups, you know.
Tell me you’re a Democrat without telling me you’re a Democrat.
No Child Left Behind, Medicare Welfare Drug Act, Homeowner $10,000 Gift Act, TARP, CARES Act, PPP, PATRIOT Act, Fatherland Security, AUMF,
This is the mother lode of bad ideas - all from GOP presidents.
Look, your parties track record is not good.
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Democrats voted for all those things. Including extending those programs. Joe wanted even more PPP like spending.
Joe is a fiscal train wreck like Donnie was.
Each signed about $3 trillion in new spending with three new programs each.
Joe's Inflation Reduction Act doesn't do jack to counter inflation.
I gave them both F's on spending.
If you were honest you would too.
Did I mention that turd lies? It's what turd does. It's all turd does.
Rule #1: Turd lies.
Rule #2: See Rule #1, etc.
turd lies; it's what trud does.
No, you don’t understand. Trump had no control over the Deep State and Democratic spending. Never mind that he insisted on his name being at the bottom of the checks.
Do you get dumber everyone you write something? Are you arguing dems didn’t vote for those things? Literally the opposite of what shrike wrote?
Most of that wasn't even under trump dumbass.
So youre original assertion of blaming the GOP in isolation was wrong. Thanks for admitting it.
Now find one time democrats tried to reduce spending. I can find plenty from the GOP.
Dee’s gonna link to an article about some (D) town that once lowered spending.
The difference EO’s that Trump had no choice on spending issues. And we all know what you and your fellow travelers would have done to him if he symbolically vetoed any of it.
So again, fuck off Kiddie Raper
That and youre a Democrat.
Democrats voted for all those things...
Trump has flip flopped on ballot drop boxes:
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-complete-180-election-issue-1778871
Facts changed?
Given that deep blue areas are not going to eliminate ballot drop boxes, yes, they need to be "put all over the place" now.
Furthermore, if the GOP wants to have any chance, it needs to aggressively do what Democrats are doing: collect ballots from the homeless, from retirement homes, from colleges, etc., telling people whatever they want to hear to get them to vote for them right there and then.
If Democrats can get votes by telling stories like "I was a Republican all my life, but I can't stand it anymore, so I'm voting Democrat this year. I think you should too. Here is your ballot", Republicans should do so as well.
Like Democrats, Republicans need to flood the country with GOP-partisan election workers, the kind of people who determine whether signatures and ballots are valid or should be discarded.
Elections are now the harvest season.
How can we still be looking back at Iraq when we are under attack from an armada of menacing assault balloons?!!!!!!
If I were looking for a canonical example of a media effort to freak people out with anxiety over something that has been going on for a while now with no notice taken I couldn’t come up with a better one than the Chinese balloon coverage.
It’s because you are an unimaginative dimwit.
So you are saying that overflights of our military installations by Chinese spy balloons are a regular occurrence... and that is supposed to make us feel better?
I guess it's "open borders" all the way with you.
By May 2003 we indeed accomplished the core mission: to so utterly wreck the Iraqi military that it would be no ongoing threat to the Arabian Peninsula. That allowed us to remove the ground forces on that peninsula that had inspired an escalating series of attacks by offended Saudis (Khobar Towers, US African Embassies, USS Cole, 9/11).
The only actual problem was Saddam Hussein managed to hide in a series of spider holes long enough that we weren't politically able to pull out until after the utterly inevitable local civil war broke out (us overthrowing Saddam moved it up, sure, but the whole place was inherently unstable under the candy coating of vicious tyranny), months after we'd accomplished all our other real goals. Because of that delay, a bunch of fucking morons (prominently, all the leading Democrats in the 2004 primaries) started talking about an inane "Pottery Barn" rule, as if Iraq hadn't already been broken under Hussein, or as if it were possible for us to fix it by staying in.
Yeah, yeah, there was some propaganda about building democracy in Iraq and transforming the region we didn't live up to because it was never possible and never the actual mission. I mean, seriously, if you're sufficiently an imbecile that you ever thought Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld ever had that on their list of goals, you need to be immediately and permanently placed in an assisted care facility.
It was also the kind of "political norms" and "business as usual" that Reason writers were desperate to return to. After all, it gave/gives them simple political targets to go after with insipid, libertarianish articles, without ever having to expend any deep thought or ruffling any feathers.
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Examining America's War in Iraq After 20 Years
It was a blunder. Worse than that, it was a crime.
We can correct this crime by liberating Ukraine.
Send tanks and planes.
Yet the U.S. has still not fully internalized that war’s lessons. The Iraq debacle should have taught the U.S. it can never again scare itself into war based on guesses about how sinister some enemy is or will be.
Internalized the war’s lessons? After 20 years, this article demonstrates that even investigative journalists haven’t the remotest understanding of why 9/11 happened. Or the consequences of that.
Osama and Al Qaeda declared war against the US in 1996 and in 1998. The 1996 fatwa was titled Declaration of War Against the Americans
Who Occupy the Land of the Two Holy Mosques[Land of Two Holy Mosques = Saudi Arabia]. I’m using the link of the 9/11 memorial website to that fatwa to show how easy it is for us to lie to ourselves, for the media to lie to us and propagandize, and for us to not hold government accountable and transparent. 9/11 was blowback from decisions made after the 1991 Iraq War - to keep our troops in Saudi Arabia. Not “we Americans are just victims of towelheads everywhere who hate us”.This was all known back then. Imo it’s the reason our government was so quick to stop the WTC victims from asking questions – by giving them money as compensation for their loss.
So what does this have to do with Iraq? Containing Iraq is why our troops were in Saudi Arabia. And by 1993 that mission had escalated to ‘dual containment’ (coined by Martin Indyk – for those troops to contain both Iraq and Iran).
This was ALL known then. Including by Saudi Arabia – which puts a different spin on why they refused to participate in the 2003 Iraq War. On Apr 30 2003, Rumsfeld announced that we were going to withdraw our troops from Saudi Arabia. The next day, Bush goes to the aircraft carrier for his Mission Accomplished speech. The burr under Osama’s saddle is gone. But not the War in Iraq. That mission is now expanded with Paul Bremer replacing Genl Garner, Franks, and Cross.
20 years later, journalists still don’t give a shit about journalists holding THEMSELVES accountable for their own failures in distinguishing between propaganda and truth. Which just ensures more failures by Citizen Joe to hold govt accountable – and more blowback events and mission-creep forever wars.
And this was all known publicly and online even then. After 9/11, I read the 1996 fatwa. Know your enemy and all. Which made the public discussion before the Iraq War mindblowing to me. I heard the propaganda and the arguments about the propaganda; but even if there was some pony pieces in all that manure, there was a basic DeRp/politicized narrative that was set in concrete.
Back then I participated in a different (and much better than this one) political online forum. Which did include the stuff above. I personally concluded that regime change in Iraq was probably necessary in order to withdraw from Saudi - because 9/11 did happen and changed how a withdrawal would be perceived and how that vacuum would be reacted to.
But I couldn't bring myself to support the particulars of that war for the specific XYZ casus belli cited. Precisely because the public casus belli then sounded mostly like irrelevant manure (at best), the only casus belli I thought was justified was not being discussed or even allowed to be discussed, and the lack of an exit strategy for jumping deeper into the manure made me question the competence of those making decisions or even putting items on the agenda.
And really - nothing will change will it. It's easy to become more cynical as I get older.
So, a wealthy religious nutjob in control of no state "declares war" against America for violating the sacred principles of his personal interpretation of his religion, and you're saying the only acceptable
response was to comply with his demands?
Hindsight is 20/20.
Portland, ‘repelling its current citizens,’ is Seattle’s cautionary tale | Danny Westneat
Obvious things for $500, Alex.
el oh el. How's that REEEEEform going there, Portland?
And the article right next to it:
Fuck off. You voted for it.
This just means a shift to all EV isn’t happening quickly enough.
Have they exhausted all other ways of making a few bucks?
Sounds a lot like what’s going on in Chicago. Here, they’re brazen enough to steal catalytic converters from police vehicles in police yards.
Their get rich quick scheme is a pipe dream.
They’re pretty much just blowing smoke at this point.
Folks are fuming about it.
What will be the catalyst for change?
With no engine for economic growth, the situation is highly combustible.
Guys, this is “Art Imitating Life” and “Life Imitating Art” for me, because my new vehicle got it’s catalytic converter sawed off within a week of me purchasing it! The mechanic told me that he encountered a whole parking lot of cars with their catalytic converter sawed off!
This catalytic converter crap is cataclysmic and has me catatonic!
Somebody needs to make a small automobile-fitted LRAD to render these looters too sick to get their saws started.
Koch political machine officially joins the Never Trumpers (as if we couldn't have guessed from the content on Reason):
https://www.yahoo.com/news/koch-political-machine-vows-fight-123030494.html
I wonder who they will back? I'm guessing it's not DeSantis.
But, in the intervening time, many of the Trump apologists in the Koch orbit have soured on the ex-President. The deadly Capitol attack on Jan. 6, 2021, was a last straw for many, and the threat posed by a leader without respect for the rule of law—a key tenant for the free-market donors central to the Koch orbit—was too much to ignore.
So now it's a "deadly attack" because the police shot an unarmed protester, and a few other protesters died, possibly from police tear gas?
How about - it's called a "deadly attack" because people actually died?
A "deadly attack" is an attack in which the attackers kill someone. The J6 protesters didn't kill anybody. Hence, it was not a "deadly attack".
A "deadly attack" is an attack in which people die.
You don't like the term because it is ACCURATE.
Or we could say it was “mostly peaceful “.
Im sure you didn’t have a problem with anyone here calling the protests during the preceding summer “deadly riots”….
Who died, and list the causes of death.
Oh, and further, if J6 was a 'deadly attack' because a couple of protesters had a heart attack and one was shot in the face, then what would one call the "mostly peaceful" protests of 2020-2022?
There is also many videos of cops beating the woman in the tunnel who "died of Adderall overdose" an hour later.
Doesn't get talked about enough. The video shows people screaming to stop beating her, she was nearly unconscious.
after overcoming a few small roadblocks along the way took the capital city within three weeks.
Three weeks? Bunch of damn amateurs.
/The Taliban
Thankfully, the Balloon Menace has ended.
https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3288543/f-22-safely-shoots-down-chinese-spy-balloon-off-south-carolina-coast/
And, as a noteworthy aside:
Huh. And no media or GOP freakout over any of those three times.
And Mike Pompeo and Trump's Director of National Intelligence were on the news today denying it.
As a noteworthy aside, the Biden administration lies to cover its ass.
Yet more evidence of MASSIVE VOTER FRAUD!
https://coloradotimesrecorder.com/2023/02/colorado-election-fraud-conspiracist-appears-to-have-committed-voter-fraud-court-docs-show/50777/
From that article:
He also characterized this reporter as an “anti-American Antifa communist piece of shit,” and said “you killing yourself would probably be the best thing for all of us.” He concluded by saying, “I welcome the day where it does actually clack off and I get to literally kick your teeth in
So which of the commenters here is this vote fraudster?
So you'd concede it's actually possible to commit voter fraud?
chemjeff has never said otherwise.
You and him both have. You have denied any and all evidence including court rulings on illegal election changes.
It is possible Tulpa hacked her account (again!) and posted those rejections. You never know!
Of course. No serious person has ever claimed that voter fraud is *impossible*.
They were talking about you, not any serious person.
I am serious. You're just an asshole.
No widespread corruption.
There are several different ways in which you can be a "resident" in a state. He can still be a "resident" for voting purposes, yet not be a "resident" for court or tax purposes.
As long as he didn't vote in any other state and still has a home/rental in Colorado, it's probably OK that he voted in Colorado. The deciding factor for voting is whether he has the intention of making another state his permanent residence.
LOL NOYB2 now comes out in defense of voter fraud.
I think we now know which Reason commenter did it!
Blunder? Yes. Crime? No. And all legal precedent points that out. Stop rehashing old stupid arguments.
Old world grudges and protection of Israeli interests above all. Start there and it all makes sense.
Since the end of the cold war, the folks who have disproportional influence on American Foreign Policy tend to have eastern european or Russian ancestry and are viewing the world through a lens that is not in the best interest of America or the world. It is the 400 lb monster in the corner that we can't have a rational discussion on because..well you know why.
If DC had to have a draft and raise taxes to pay for these wars, popular support would evaporate overnight. That is why the neolibs and neocons love the Fed and pushers of keynsian astrology. Attack the Fed and Keynes and again you will be outed as as....well you know..
Maybe a few more Murphy's, Rizzos running American foreign policy and the world would be a safer place for everyone.
I've got news for you: The U.S. Constitution and The Bill of Rights arose from a whole shitload of "old grudges" against The British Empire.
The prohibition against royalty, against bills of attainder and corruption of blood (looking at you); against emoluments except in consideration for public service; freedom of speech, press, petition, and expression; the right to keep and bear arms; the prohibition of quartering troops in private homes; prohibition of warrantless searches and seizure; requirements for due process, jury trials, and just compensation; prohibitions against cruel and unusual punishment; and much more came from our Founder's grudges against Great Britain and the Crown and Empire!
So go ahead: Feel the hatred of tyranny flowing within!
Oh, and Murphys and Rizzos can be as big a bunch of assholes as King George III if they have unlimited power too. Maybe you should forget "The Old Country" and assimilate Truth, Justice, and The American Way.
Your weekly reminder that Robbie's pal probably killed more people than Pol Pot.
https://brownstone.org/articles/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-lab-leak/
Between 2014 and 2019, US tax dollars were funneled to the Wuhan Institute of Virology via EcoHealth Alliance. Given that US scientists have far more virology expertise than the Chinese, this begs an obvious question: what type of research were US tax dollars paying for in Wuhan, China? Dr. Fauci’s surprising statement in an interview might provide the short answer to this question: “You don’t want to go to Hoboken, NJ or Fairfax, VA to be studying the bat-human interface that might lead to an outbreak, so you go to China.”
Given what we’ve endured for the past three years, Fauci’s “so you go to China” comment suggests that he hadn’t considered the global implications of a highly transmissible coronavirus leaking from a Chinese lab plagued by serious safety issues.
He needs to answer for his crimes against humanity
Fauci and his inner cabal should all face a public Nuremberg type trial.
Reason shrugs.
https://amgreatness.com/2023/02/03/theater-of-the-absurd-in-j6-courtrooms/
The Department of Justice carefully crafted the dramatic moment in court.
A federal prosecutor handed an enclosed paper bag to an FBI agent responsible for investigating members of the Proud Boys, now on trial for seditious conspiracy related to their participation in the events of January 6. The bag contained “evidence of the unlawful entry of the United States Capitol on January 6, 2021 and evidence of the disruption to the certification of the 2020 presidential election,” FBI Special Agent Elizabeth D’Angelo told assistant U.S. Attorney Nadia Moore on Wednesday.
D’Angelo cautiously pulled the evidence out of the bag to present to the jury.
Spectators in D.C. District Court Judge Timothy Kelly’s courtroom were on the edge of their seats. What would the mystery bag reveal?
Would it disclose the group’s intricate but failed plot to overthrow the government? A detailed list of weapons the “seditionists” planned to use in service of their dastardly deed? Names of targeted officials?
A nervous hush fell over the room; sweat beads formed on furrowed brows. Finally, the big moment arrived.
It was—a set of challenge coins.
Moore: Can you give a brief description of what they are?
D’Angelo: They are challenge coins. This one is black and gold—and this package contains four black and gold colored challenge coins.
Moore: Are these the same coins that were seized from Zachary Rehl’s home?
D’Angelo: Yes.
What?
Like many organizations, the Proud Boys produce coins that depict the group’s motto and attitude. When multiple armed FBI agents raided Rehl’s Philadelphia residence in March 2021, terrorizing his pregnant wife and pillaging his home, investigators found not one but several such coins.
Prosecutors, however, didn’t explain how Rehl and his co-defendants—also found in possession of incriminating challenge coins during similar SWAT raids—deployed the dangerous faux currency that day. (One version included an image of a Pokemon character, apparently an insurrectionist himself.)
Most honest election ever. Even better than 2020!
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/texas-governor-considers-new-county-election-after-ballot-issues-found
Harris County seems to be one of Texas’s homes for reindeer games.
As we all suspected.
It's Official: Ugly People More Likely To Wear Masks - University Study
https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/ugly-people-more-likely-wear-masks-university-study
I think this ugly people masking themselves is one of the few positive outcomes of the COVID panic.
I would support legislation to make it required. Starting with fat chicks with green hair.
Have they studied people with halitosis?
"The best antidote to this spiritualist temptation is to bear in mind the lesson of Donald Rumsfeld's theory of knowledge - as expounded in March 2003, when the then US defence secretary engaged in a little bit of amateur philosophising: "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know." What Rumsfeld forgot to add was the crucial fourth term: the "unknown knowns" - things we don't know that we know, all the unconscious beliefs and prejudices that determine how we perceive reality and intervene in it."
That's a quote from Slavoj Zizek. His definition of ideology, our unknown knows, is succinct and illuminating. On youtube you can see multiple videos delivering the same point including examples, improvisations and elaborations with his distinctive verbal stylings.
The lessons learned that should never fade were never learned. Everything in this article supports that conclusion. Unfortunately that simple point was overwhelmed by the narrative that – surprise! – war is horrible. Whether or not the never-ending war in Iraq was justified or successful has nothing whatever to do with its being horrible. In fact no single part of it was justified. Even if one accepts the rationale for kicking Sadam back out of Kuwait as soon as possible, invading Iraq halfway to Baghdad and then stopping was – and still is even in retrospect – insupportable. It simply illustrates the confusion amongst the NATO (or UN?) “allies” as to the goal of the operation. Keeping our troops in occupation of Arabia waiting for an excuse to resume the invasion was simply asking for the excuse that someone would almost certainly provide sooner or later. When a famous person recommended avoiding getting involved in a land war with China, someone should have taken it to heart and applied it double to the Middle East! But no one did and, I suspect, no one ever will. Making the world safe for democracy is simply more attractive to politicians than minding your own business and avoiding entangling alliances and no one wants to be accused of being soft on “defense.”
Yeah all of that. But as Hilary explained about the War on Drugs. You can't stop because there's too much money in it.
Baloongate. The controversy deepens.
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/its-disinformation-trump-former-officials-slam-anonymous-report-chinese-spy-balloons
So the Pentagon, yeah that Pentagon, announces, siting an anonymous official, that Chinese balloons violated our airspace three times when Orange Man was in office. Even John Bolton says it's bullshit.
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"Making the world safe for democracy is simply more attractive to politicians than minding your own business and avoiding entangling alliances and no one wants to be accused of being soft on “defense.”
These politicians are Liberals, and they hold the values of freedom to be universal. It's never just one country it's all mankind. It's also business, middle east being what it is, oil wise. And especially freedom to do business.
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
"Spouting nonsense is an end in itself."
Baylen Linneken sheds a tear.
https://www.zerohedge.com/commodities/fake-meat-fail-sales-collapse-beyond-meat-impossible-foods-20-staff-fired
Fake Meat Fail: Sales Collapse At Beyond Meat, Impossible Foods As 20% Of Staff Laid Off
Reality is getting meatered out to them.
Instead of coming to a meating of the minds, both companies shredded their profit margins as productivity ground to a halt. Leans times ahead.
Well done, meat heads!
The stuff is impossible to sell.
You know who else wouldn’t buy it?
No, no you're mistaking Impossible Meat for "Corpse Soup."
🙂
One lesson to be learned is to distrust the duopoly. The democrats supported the war. The Republicans supported the war. It was the communists that opposed it. The ANSWER coalition is communism as pure as you're likely to find today. North Korea is a workers' paradise, the whole shebang. They organized the largest demonstrations in human history according to the Guinness book of records, mobilizing some 30 million people against the war on every continent on the planet.
Are you implying you want to live in North Korea? If so, set up a GoFundMe for the ticket. You’ll get a few donations from the commentariat.
Are you implying that you want to be in the Guinness book of records? World's most inane response might be your best bet.
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
"Spouting nonsense is an end in itself."
^ This
He couldn't make it there on his Rickshaw.
🙂
Final Irony about the Iraq War : we lost. Lost in Afghanistan too. Just like in Vietnam.
Not militarily. Iraq was a resounding military success, crushing the world's 3rd largest standing army in 72 hours. Afghanistan was also a military success - until Xiden snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.
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It was a blunder. It was a crime. And as a senator; Resident Joke Bitem voted for it, and more. https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-biden-kept-screwing-up-iraq-over-and-over-and-over-again
Go take a seat next to Cindy Sheehan & all the folks who were 'awful libs' in 2004... Blind partisanship (if the Dems are for it, we're against it - even if we were for it 10 or 20 years ago) makes for particularly stupid viewpoints...
We wage war to beat hell -- no one does it better. But we consistently screw up the peace. As in Afghanistan, the utter failure of anyone (DoD, State, anyone) to even attempt to understand the culture and people guaranteed that the mission would end in disaster.
Cultures don't change overnight. Change is incremental and generational. Trying to drag any society kicking and screaming into the 21st Century (in what amounts to) overnight is bound to fail.
The only failures in Afghanistan were a failure of time-scale & a massive underestimation of how much harm the corruption that fed off our presence did.
Insurgencies of the sort the Taliban was operating take generations to defeat - 25 years in Malaysia, 75 years in Colombia, etc... We decided we had been there 'too long' after 20 years.
The corruption issue provided a propaganda tool for the enemy (framing the Kabul government as 'just there to steal from Americans') - although how you deal with that is a question no one has a good answer to...
And let's not forget, the Taliban (As the functional government of Afghanistan prior to 2002) were the only national-government actually involved in 9/11. Not the Saudis, not the Jordanians, Pakistanis or Egyptians. Just the Afghan Taliban.
Some cultures don't change at all. The Middle East is the same mess it was back in Roman times.
Yes, yes, that's 'the narrative'... Got it.
Blaming the US for the 1991 war, as if Iraq should have been allowed to invade and annex Kuwait & parts of Saudi Arabia, immediately after their previous unprovoked invasion of Iran turned the region upside down for a good bit of the 80s...
Treating the no-fly-zone policy (enacted to protect Shia and Kurdish civilian populations from being bombed by Saddam's forces) as if it was doing the exact opposite ('death from the air'? If you were a SAM site operator who engaged NFZ enforcement aircraft or an Iraqi fighter pilot, sure... Civillains, no...)
Presuming dishonesty over error...
And completely omitting the 'middle' of the conflict, wherein foreign fighters loyal to Al Qaeda attempted to set up an Islamist regime (Al Queda in Iraq - the fore-runner to ISIS) in the Sunni-majority regions - effectively invading Iraq themselves... Most combat in the later 00s, outside of southern Iraq, was against this organization - which, thanks to successful efforts to rally local militia forces against it, was largely destroyed by 2011 but 'came back' as ISIS after the US withdrawal & invaded Iraq again (from Syria).
Finally, the vision for 'democratic change' *was* successful in Iraq (for all their struggles electing a government, they have not reverted to dictatorship & are no longer a military threat to their neighbors) and almost happened on a wider scale, vs-a-vs the 2009 'Arab Spring', but it was terribly mismanaged by the Obama Administration in an effort (Failed, thanks to the rather-predictable rise of ISIS after US withdrawal & relative non-involvement in Syria) to avoid further military involvement in the region....
Some revisionism in this article. Iraq DID have chemical weapons. We knew because WE sold them to them. They also had the trained people and resources to make more. That they Houdini'd them away neither changes that nor is it surprising.
That's not to say it was a good "justification" for going to war. Bush's reason for going to war was simple - Kuwait WAS the Bush family oil fortune, and he wanted it back. And, had we simply gone in there and crushed Iraq and left, that might have been a better answer - except for the pesky fact that Iran would simply have used the power vacuum to advance their own terrorist agenda. Sticky wicket all around.
Blunder maybe. Crime no. UNSCRs had clearly been violated and triggered, and Iraq miscalculated in its own bluster about WMD capacity in a time when it was especially risky to be seen as a potential state sponsor or permitter of terroristic attacks.
Thanks to Brian Doherty for the reminder and the insights. I'll be re-reading this article again. And I will only be voting for candidates that would never allow this to happen.
"It was a blunder. Worse than that, it was a crime."
That's a big understatement. It was mega US savagery on a country with 27 million people.
Buttplug just went full neocon up above. No surprise if sarcasmic were to follow.
Neocons joined the democrats. Of course he likes them now.
#Resistance was a Twitter hashtag. It was a virtue-signaling pose by a lot of people, most of whom weren't bureaucrats. Are you confusing it with some sort of organized conspiracy within the bureaucracy?
The only reason Biden dragged it out was so he could have his big photo op on the 20th anniversary of 9/11. His ego got a lot of people killed and weakened America. Biden should be convicted of treason and lawfully executed for that.
Trump had arranged an agreement with the Taliban to end it
before fighting season began.after the electionthere, fixed it for ya
Right. No one ever feigns a principled position in order to mask their real irrational tribalistic position. Isn't that right, R Mac, the guy who claimed to be "opposed to dishonesty" and yet only ever seems to attack one group of people and let a much more dishonest group of people off the hook time and time again?
You are not "opposed to dishonesty". You are opposed to what you claim to be dishonesty from the people you already don't like. You are totally okay with dishonesty from your allies if it helps your team.
Jesse and others come here on a daily basis spouting utterly dishonest bullshit from their right-wing media bubble and you say nothing. And yet if I merely use quotation marks incorrectly in some setting, you are the first to pounce and call me a lying liar.
You really are a shameless asshole.
lol
An accurate description of an event is now "lefty propaganda". Got it.
The "deadly" part was on protesters, NOT on the government.
lol
let's note all the people in this very discussion whom you have called out for allegedly "lying"
do you really think I am the only supposed liar in this entire comment section? Hmm?
FREEDOM FIGHTERS!
“We were always playing shell games to not make clear to our leadership how many troops we had there,” James Jeffrey, US special representative for Syria engagement, said in an interview with Defense One.
https://nypost.com/2020/11/13/diplomat-says-officials-misled-trump-on-troop-count-in-syria/
There is no deep state right jeff?
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Yes, please, for the love of all that is holy, POST THE LIST!
"Resistance was a Twitter hashtag"
And a show by Keith Olbermann, who for reasons (pardon the pun) beyond me people still watch.
And let's not forget Peter Strzok telling his mistress that they wouldn't let Trump become president. And then the Steele dossier gets leaked to the press, which the FBI uses to help justify the Mueller probe.
First, since your link comes from right-wing media, some fact-checking is required. Because right-wing media lies by habit.
Here is another interview with James Jeffrey:
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2020/12/trump-syria-envoy-jeffrey-mideast-policy-turkey-erdogan.html
So in this case we have Jeffrey's own words, and in Jesse's case we have only the "trust" in the reliability in his right-wing echo chamber, I'm going to go with the interview I cited.
And besides, Jeffrey doesn't represent the "Deep State" even as you are using the term. Jeffrey wasn't some career lifer at the State Department with his #resistance hashtags. He was a special envoy APPOINTED BY TRUMP HIMSELF. He doesn't represent the "Deep State", he represents the "Shallow State", the people whom Trump himself appointed who didn't bend to his will. Because the government is not about one man ruling, it is about the rule of law.
At this point, I think your only working definition of "Deep State" is "people disloyal to Trump".
And anonymous federal branch employees openly bragging about it.
Isn’t this already the 99th red balloon?
Trump’s targets were always other powerful people/institutions.
Like penniless Guatemalans seeking refuge at the US border. Powerful people like that.
No no, luftballoons are ok, as long as they don’t have swastikas on them.
Now if it was 99 воздушный шар, watch the fuck out.
Also, I’m calling bullshit on this little bit of whataboutism. No way the media would have covered up that story during Trumps tenure.
You don’t have principals. The concept is ultimately alien to you.
You constantly lie. Hmmmm?
Not to be a grammar komissar, but it would be 99 воздушных шаров And no, I don’t believe that last bit either.
Rumor s, the other 99 will wait for summer skies before launching. That’ll be it boys, that’ll be war! (Unless we just let them go by…)
Seeking refuge from what, Jeff?
Guatemala isn't at war and it isn't a totalitarian state (at least no more than the US), but a multiparty democracy.
You can't manage to ever write a single fucking word without being completely disingenuous.
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I prefer Groomer Jeffy. Maybe combine them?
Bush had no plan for the post war management of Iraq.
It would have been better to have broken it up into 3 separate countries.
Kurdistan, in the north, Shiastan in the center and Sunnistan in the south.
Then Iran would only have influence in 1/3 of Iraq.
Employees who cannot be fired by the Chief Executive, apparently...
A good chunk of Biden’s administration should go to prison for what they did. Biden included.