Hulu's 1619 Project Docuseries Peddles False History
The first episode paints an enslaver, plantation master, and Royalist autocrat as a leading and even celebrated agent of emancipation.

The New York Times' 1619 Project selected Colonial Williamsburg, Virginia, as a filming location for its new Hulu docuseries. In doing so, creator Nikole Hannah-Jones sought to bolster her project's most troublesome claim—the assertion that British overtures toward emancipation impelled the American colonists into revolution, ultimately securing an independent United States.
In the past three years, the Times has grappled with the fallout from Hannah-Jones' assertion, including the revelation that it ignored its own fact-checker's warnings against printing the charge. The Times tempered its language to apply to "some of" the colonists, only to see it reasserted by Hannah-Jones in her public commentaries. Later, a related line about the Project's goal of replacing 1776 with a "true founding" of 1619 disappeared without notice from the Times' website. The newspaper found itself in a balancing act between its writer's uncompromising positions and the need to preserve credibility as it made a Pulitzer Prize bid with the series. But Hannah-Jones was not ready to abandon the claim at the center of her lead essay, and the first episode of the Hulu series makes that abundantly clear.
The scene opens in Williamsburg on the grounds of its reconstructed colonial Governor's Palace, where Hannah-Jones joins University of South Carolina professor Woody Holton—one of a handful of heterodox historians who defended the 1619 Project's original narrative. As the cameras pan across streets filled with historical re-enactors and tourists in front of restored colonial buildings, the pair take another stab at resurrecting the 1619 Project's narrative about the American Revolution. The evidence that a British threat to slavery impelled Virginians—or perhaps "the colonists" at large, in Hannah-Jones' imprecise phrasing—to revolt may be found in the November 1775 decree of John Murray, fourth earl of Dunmore, Virginia's last Royalist governor. Facing the collapse of British rule, Dunmore announced that any enslaved male from a household in rebellion would be granted freedom in exchange for military service on the British side.
Dunmore's decree made him the author of an "Emancipation Proclamation" of sorts, both Hannah-Jones and Holton contend. Their language intentionally evokes parallels to President Abraham Lincoln's famous order freeing the slaves of the rebellious Confederacy in 1863. Prompted by Hannah-Jones' questioning, Holton then recounts his version of the lesser-known events of some four score and eight years prior. "Dunmore issued that Emancipation Proclamation November 1775," he explains, "and that Emancipation Proclamation infuriated white southerners."
We see the visual power of the Hulu production at this moment as Holton lifts his finger, pointing at the Governor's Palace, the centerpiece of the Colonial Williamsburg historical park. The camera quickly shifts to the recreated structure as he begins to speak. "Because this building is supposed to symbolize white rule over blacks, and now the guy inhabiting that building," Dunmore, "has turned things upside down and is leading blacks against whites." Hannah-Jones interjects, "So you have this situation where many Virginians and other southern colonists—they're not really convinced that they want to side with the patriots. And this turns many of them towards the revolution. Is that right?" Holton answers without a flinch. "If you ask them, it did. The record is absolutely clear."
The scene is an authoritatively delivered pronouncement set to stunning cinematography, but it's also false history.
At the time of his decree, the real Dunmore had not set foot in Williamsburg in almost five months. His order, decreeing martial law in the colony and calling on slaves to enlist in a Royalist militia, came not from the governor's residence but from a position of exile aboard the HMS William, a naval ship anchored off the coast of Norfolk, Virginia.
Dunmore abandoned the Governor's Palace on June 8, 1775, amid signs that patriot militiamen were converging on Williamsburg to defend the House of Burgesses from a threatened power grab by the crown. The trouble began a few weeks earlier with a botched attempt by Dunmore to seize the colony's gunpowder stores as a preemptive strike against revolutionary grumblings.
Indeed, when Dunmore fled the capital, he carried away a sizable staff of "servants" from the palace grounds and relocated them to Porto Bello, his sprawling plantation a few miles up the river. Yes, the 1619 Project's designated agent of "emancipation" for the British crown was an enslaver himself. Dunmore encamped on a succession of warships anchored in the nearby York River, never to return to the building where Holton erroneously situated the decree. He occasionally took a barge over to the plantation house at Porto Bello to enjoy fine dining with his officers, served by his relocated slaves. But that ended as patriot militias gained control of the peninsula on which the property sat, and Dunmore withdrew to Norfolk. By November 7, 1775—the date of the order—he had long lost any semblance of control over the colony. The decree anticipated an unsuccessful campaign to regain a foothold in the colony. In retrospect, it was a desperate move to restore himself to power by inducing a slave revolt amid the already-unfolding revolution, rather than any true attempt to affect "emancipation" at large.
The inescapable progression of the timeline has always worked against Hannah-Jones' narrative. Leaning heavily on Holton's academic work, she asserts that Dunmore galvanized the southern colonies against Britain by imperiling their slave plantations and moving them into the revolutionary column. Holton's commentaries in the docuseries signal his concurrence with this view insofar as it relates to Virginia, even as he stops short of Hannah-Jones' blurry ascription of this motive to "the colonists" of the future U.S. at large. Yet as a matter of history, it collides with easily documented facts.
As the events around Williamsburg revealed, Dunmore's order was a reaction to—not a cause of—a revolution already in full swing. The road to American independence began in Massachusetts over a decade earlier with men such as James Otis (incidentally, an early abolitionist) rallying against the crown under the banner of "no taxation without representation." Virginia expressed solidarity with this cause long before Dunmore's order.
In 1774, the House of Burgesses adopted a resolution of fasting to show their support for the people of Boston, then under a punitive edict from London in retaliation for its tax protests. A short time later, a group of leading Virginians including George Washington and George Mason signed the Fairfax Resolves, stating a long list of grievances against the crown (its promotion of the slave trade among them) and rejecting parliamentary control over the colonies. Patrick Henry, another Virginian, delivered his famous "Give me liberty, or give me death" speech in March 1775 before Dunmore even uttered a word about enlisting slaves. Washington himself would take command of the Continental Army on June 19, 1775, organizing his troops in New England after the Battle of Bunker Hill.
As his shipbound circumstances illustrated, the remnants of Lord Dunmore's governorship amounted to little more than paper when he issued his decree that autumn. It is undoubtedly true that Dunmore's order further inflamed an already-raging revolution, including nudging some slave-owning planters off the fence. But its sweeping martial law provision was likely the greater source of outrage. As Dunmore's own financial interests illustrate, he had every intention of honoring the decree's explicit exemptions for the human property of Royalist enslavers. None of these complicating details receive even the slightest amount of attention in the Hulu presentation from Williamsburg.
Hannah-Jones' latest chronological mishap adds to a long list of errors that have plagued the 1619 Project. In this instance, it also speaks to a deeper underlying negligence around matters of basic fact. As a flashpoint of controversy since the 1619 Project's inception, the claims about slavery in the American Revolution warranted careful attention. The docuseries offered Hannah-Jones yet another opportunity to clarify her case, ostensibly with the guidance of trained historians such as Holton. Instead, she pushed ahead, unaware of a timeline that any tour guide at the Governor's Palace could have resolved for her.
Holton's case is a bit more complicated, as his academic works, including his 2021 book Liberty Is Sweet, evince awareness of Dunmore's shipbound circumstances after his June 1775 flight. In fact, Holton's scholarly publications have attempted to walk a fine line around the 1619 Project that chafes with his ringing public endorsements of the same in popular media. A revealing footnote tucked inside Liberty Is Sweet states that Hannah-Jones "vastly exaggerates the size and strength of the British abolition movement" in the years before the revolution, dampening her attempts to use the 1772 anti-slavery Somerset case as an instigating cause of American independence. Yet as the docuseries shows, it is Holton who assigns particular significance to the filming location in Williamsburg, and it is Holton who points to the governor's residence as the source of his own vastly exaggerated "Emancipation Proclamation."
This peculiar convergence of factual error and cinematic misdirection comes with an ironic twist. If there are historical parallels to be drawn between Dunmore's order and later events, it is not Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation but rather the desperate actions of his Confederate adversaries. In the waning days of the Civil War, Jefferson Davis authorized what became known as General Orders No. 14. The measure called for the "enlistment of colored persons" into the Confederate army, with provisions to accept any male slave "with his own consent and with the approbation of his master by a written instrument conferring, as he may, the rights of a freedman" in exchange for service. The Confederates paraded a handful of black companies on the streets of Richmond in late March 1865. Some of these troops were likely involved in a rearguard skirmish as Robert E. Lee's army abandoned the city and made its fateful retreat toward Appomattox Courthouse.
The Confederates' measure was no act of magnanimity by the slavers, but rather an exercise in desperation by a government on the precipice of collapse. Like Dunmore some 90 years before him, Davis lost his seat of power and found his forces in disarray. Most historians interpret his actions in this panicked context, not as some sudden change of heart on the central issue that sparked the Civil War.
And yet a parallel scenario from the American Revolution is now being touted as proof of a long-forgotten British antislavery crusade? We may look on in amazement, amusement, and disgust as the 1619 Project's creator and its academic boosters attempt a peculiar rehabilitation of Dunmore—enslaver, plantation master, and Royalist autocrat—as a leading and even celebrated agent of emancipation.
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"Hannah-Jones' latest chronological mishap adds to a long list of errors that have plagued the 1619 Project."
Errors like this are common when you try to insert historical fan fiction tailor made for 'political cause of today'.
Anyone remember Colbert's "truthiness"? Something must be true because it feels to be true? Basically the standard of truth is that it fits the desired narrative. He meant it as a humorous shtick, and it was humorous before he overplayed it.
He aimed that at the Right, but it's the Left that truly latched onto it. The modern Left judges all truth by how well it fits into their narratives. So even if the 1619 project is dead wrong on so many things, it doesn't matter because it fits their narrative and thus must be true. And anyone who questions the accuracy of it must ergo be part of the opposition (filthy white oppressors).
This doesn't just piss me off politically, it pisses me off historically. History is history and the goal of the study of history is to first uncover the facts and second to make sense of them. Coming up with the narratives first and then making shit up to match it is not history, it's an affront to history.
The narrative will guide you; all else is peripheral, especially those pesky "facts" that are so white supremacist.
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"He meant it as a humorous shtick"
Agenda driven mendacity is a "schtick?"
Oh, right. Reason.
When you are a TV comedian, yes it is.
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Coming up with the narratives first and then making shit up to match it is not history, it’s an affront to history.
Totally agree with your comment and the selection above. But there are affronts to selectively ignoring events as there are to making shit up.
The 1619 project is ludicrous if the purpose is to view it as an actual historical document. But if the purpose is to introduce events that change and add to our interpretation of history, then it has a positive value even if it is overreaching or an affront.
The notion that we can ignore Somerset v Stewart (1772) because abolition was originally a white British thing is kind of BS history too that is in fact racist if it leads to viewing blacks as passive victims/minstrels and whites as the Great Drivers. That BS interpretation is also the standard textbook view of American history.
What if we see freedom suits as one in chain of events of consequence (eg one in Massachusetts in 1773 - or the Dred Scott cases and appeals from 1846 to 1857 - or Somerset v Stewart 1772 - and yes back to 1640 in Virginia). They were hugely consequential but it really does change the narrative of race, agency, freedom, and how we got to the Civil War.
It's postmodern nazism.
False history is the basis of all propaganda aka psy-ops.
Man, the irony of your comment can't be overstated.
How so?
Head of British Psychological Warfare Executive (Propaganda), Victor Cavendish-Bentick in a handwritten note, wrote on Aug 27th, 1943,
“We have had a good run for our money with this gas chamber story we have been putting about, but don’t we run the risk eventually we are going to be found out and when we are found out the collapse of that lie is going to bring the whole of our psychological warfare down with it? So isn’t it rather time now to let it drift off by itself and concentrate on other lines that we are running.”
Public Record Office Document F0371/34551 revealed by Stephen Mitford Goodson, ‘Inside the South African Reserve Bank’.
“Of course, it would be very easy to confirm the ethnicity of the bodies in the mass graves at Dachau and Buchenwald simply by exhuming some of the bodies and running DNA tests on them. Any simple DNA test could confirm that the remains were Jewish or German. But as we know from all over Europe, Jewish groups have absolutely forbidden any of these “Jewish mass graves” to be disturbed because to do so would allegedly violate their “religious” beliefs, except where it’s convenient to them.”
You literally engage in false history propaganda constantly defending your Nazi friends to justify your antisemitism. You epitomize the concept of propaganda to drive a desired ideological reality.
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Since you can’t describe and link to anyone ever refuting what I’ve said, upon what bullshit do you base your conclusion that I’ve said misinformation?
You want a link? Here you go: https://www.ushmm.org/
I also direct you to any library with countless books on the subject.
The thing is, you just claim the overwhelming evidence against your retarded position is wrong and cite snippets of information from conspiracy websites.
Just embrace that you hate Jews and like Nazis because they killed Jews. Everyone knows that you are the biggest piece of shit here, so just embrace it.
That link to propaganda doesn’t refute anything.
If you think it does, prove it. Show and describe how it refutes anything that I have said.
You can’t and won’t simply because it doesn’t.
You are a fuckwit.
It's not propaganda, you just claim it to be because you're a Jew hating Nazi scumbag that can't handle reality.
What's it like being one of the most hated people to exist?
I couldn’t care less how you feel. That’s on you fuckwit.
How do you feel being unable to prove what you claim or refute what you deny? That’s on you also.
I feel great sharing irrefutable evidence of correctly applied logic and science and laughing at you choking on it is an added bonus.
Keep it up.
Hahaha.
This blatant falsehood, which can be found in all of the usual places in the darkest corners of the Internet, is actually a quote from infamous historian David Irving, speaking in Toronto on 13 August 1988, not from Victor Cavendish-Bentinck in August 1943. h t t p s://www.stormfront.org/forum/t808720/
Cavendish-Bentinck's handwritten note actually said,"“In my opinion it is incorrect to describe Polish information regarding German atrocities as ‘trustworthy’. The Poles, and to a far greater extent the Jews, tend to exaggerate German atrocities in order to stoke us up. They seem to have succeeded.
Mr Allen and myself have both followed German atrocities quite closely. I do not believe that there is any evidence which would be accepted in a Law Court that Polish children have been killed on the spot by Germans when their parents were being deported to work in Germany, nor that Polish children have been sold to German settlers. As regards putting Poles to death in gas chambers, I do not believe that there is any evidence that this has been done. There have been many stories to this effect, and we have played them up in PWE rumours without believing that they had any foundation. At any rate there is far less evidence than exists for the mass murder of Polish officers by the Russians at Katyn. On the other hand we do know that the Germans are out to destroy Jews of any age unless they are fit for manual labour.
I think that we weaken our case against the Germans by publicly giving credence to atrocity stories for which we have no evidence. These mass executions in gas chambers remind me of the stories of employment of human corpses during the last war for the manufacture of fat, which was a grotesque lie and led to the true stories of German atrocities being brushed aside as being mere propaganda."
"Mr Cavendish-Bentinck later [1979] explained that his pre-war experience of Germany had been limited and that he therefore disbelieved the atrocity stories in 1942-3. He added that when he visited Auschwitz in late 1945 and reported to the Foreign Office that millions of people had been killed there, it was still not believed." h t t p s://codoh.com/library/document/britains-rumor-factory/en/#_ftnref2
Where is ANY evidence that my reference to Cavemdish’s handwritten note “ Public Record Office Document F0371/34551 revealed by Stephen Mitford Goodson, ‘Inside the South African Reserve Bank’.” is a “falsehood”?
When the head of British Propaganda admits he didn’t believe it, it’s essentially the same as what was written in his 1943 note.
You certainly haven’t provided anything to support your claim.
I'm not sure what other evidence you would need. I directed you to the Stormfront website, where the quote is clearly attributed to David Irving. And, frankly, you'd have to be a very special kind of credulous to have believed that Sir Cavendish-Bentinck had written such words. It actually reminded me of one of those crude antisemitic cartoons from the 1930s. Of course it was David Irving's words.
I'm surprised you are not familiar with Stormfront. It is one of the world's most vile white supremacist and antisemitic hate sites.
You provided no evidence at all to support your claim that my reference was a falsehood.
Your address to your alleged “stormfront” evidence doesn’t link to a website demonstrating that you don’t even check your work.
You can't work out how to put "h t t p s" back to "https"? Jeez...
Anyway, if you ever do manage it, you will see that David Irving stated in 1998 that someone named Paul Norris was the source of the Cavendish-Bentinck note, which had been attached to Public Record Office document FO 371/34551.
Irving's "paraphrase" was wildly inaccurate (which is evident from the CODOH source), but Irving's words are the ones you (still) believe Cavendish-Bentinck actually wrote, because it confirms your rather obvious bias.
I think we're done here.
Your argument without evidence to support it was done before you typed it.
I want to see a confirmed scanned copy of the note. It should be ALL OVER THE INTERNET.
Who doesn’t? Hahaha
It’s a wonderful feeling to discern and share the truth with correctly applied logic and science and demonstrate every time that it can’t be refuted.
You don't even bother to check your sources.
You haven’t refuted my reference so what makes you think it’s a falsehood and why should anyone believe you?
Goodson published his book in 2014 (and repeated his claim in 2017: h t t p s://www.sajr.co.za/public-protector-s-cohort-steven-goodson-is-not-just-anti-jewish/).
But he did not "reveal" those words, and he did almost certainly did not accurately quote from Public Record Office Document F0371/34551, as he claims. It is quite clear that he simply quoted David Irving (who had even said they were Cavendish--Bentinck's words "to this effect" before he disingenuously paraphrased them), and attributed those words to Cavendish--Bentinck in 1943. Did he falsely attribute those words to Cavendish-Bentinck intentionally, or did he take them at face value from another secondary source without researching them, just like you did?
The Stormfront forum post quoted David Irving's 13 August 1988 speech in June 2011--predating Goodson's "revelation" of those exact words in 2014. Which do you think came first?
I don't actually believe everything I'm told about the Holocaust, and I especially object to censorship and insisting on labelling things "denial", but I recognise evil when I see it, and antisemites are just fucking evil (for lack of a better, sufficiently agnostic term).
You obviously don’t even know how create a link, so maybe you shouldn’t refer to them as evidence until you can.
In any case, your rhetoric hasn’t refuted anything.
The irony of your contradiction that you “object to labelling” yet use the term “antisemites” is duly noted. Can truth, reality be antisemitic? Does that mean it’s evil?
You should try to get some evidence, any at all will d,o before jumping to conclusions.
The term “almost certainly” is rhetorical most certainly.
Let’s briefly discuss the probability of the rhetorical term “almost certainly”
It’s a certainty that Jewish groups claimed in newspapers holocausts of 6 million Jews in various nations no less than 166 times between the years 1900 and 1945.
With each lie, what is the probability that the next exactly equal claim will be true?
What then is the probability of the 167th iteration, the holocaust fairytale that you believe?
How’s that for “almost certainly”?
This is how I clearly and unambiguously ensure that what I say represents truth, reality.
I value the inalienable human right to free speech.
I value the supremacy of correctly applied logic and science in discerning and demonstrating truth aka reality.
I value the application of both in open debate to conclude and demonstrate that truth can never be refuted while untruths can be.
I commit that if what I say is ever refuted, I’ll never say it again.
Does this represent the character of your evil bogeyman?
Try refuting this.
The following points refute key elements of the holocaust with logic and science. This is because all stories creating the holocaust narrative defy logic and science.
There has been no objective forensic analysis at any supposed site. That means that there is no physical evidence. Any activity that demonstrates and shares evidence to refute the holocaust is a crime in every nation where it allegedly occurred.
The crucial event of the story is the cyanide gassing of millions of Jews. That never happened.
Jews wrote books illustrated with pictures of themselves shirtless dragging gassed bodies from the chambers to cremation ovens.
But cyanide is absorbed through the skin and NOBODY could have survived a single day of such activity much less collecting reparations into their old age reminiscing about it years later.
And so it goes with every bullshit story. The facts prove otherwise.
Let’s not forget another old timey favourite.The story of Babi Yar is a popular lesson in Jewish schools described as the single largest event of the holocaust.
The lesson is that between 30,000 and 100,000 Jews were taken to a ravine in Ukraine where they were killed.
The story is told by one Jewish
survivor, Dina Pronicheva, an actress who testified that she was forced to strip naked and marched to the edge of the ravine. When the firing squad shot, she jumped into the ravine and played dead. After being covered by thousands of bodies and tons of earth she dug herself out, unscathed, when the coast was clear and escaped to tell the story.
She is apparently the only person in history to successfully perform a matrix bullet dodge at a firing squad. The soldier aiming point blank at her never noticed her escape. Never walked a few steps to the edge of the ravine to finish her off.
They were stripped naked to leave no evidence. Naked she had no tools to dig herself out from under 30,000 bodies and tons of dirt.
Only after the deed was done, the nazis realized that so many bullet ridden bodies were evidence. Oops, rookie move. So they brought more Jews and millions of cubic feet of firewood to dig them up, cremate them on gravestones and scatter their ashes in surrounding fields.
There has been no forensic investigation at the site. None of the bullets allegedly burned with the bodies have been recovered. Not one shred of physical evidence of this has ever been found.
There are military aerial photographs of the area at the time but they don’t show any evidence of the narrative, no people, no equipment, no firewood, no moved earth, no tracks of any kind.
Simply stating these facts is a crime in Ukraine where the Babi Yar narrative is taught in school
Have you ever heard of the Bletchley park decrypts of the famous German enigma machines? It was credited for turning the tide of the war as allies knew what military actions the Germans were planning.
Only released in the 1980s those translated messages included prison camp information, deaths, transfers and requests for medicines to treat illnesses. The numbers of dead don’t support the holocaust narrative of which there was also no mention of.
Are you willingly performing the feeble mental gymnastics required to believe, as the story goes, that Germans were communicating in code about prison camps while talking plainly about their military actions with their top secret enigma machines?
The numbers of dead from German enigma decrypts does align with Red Cross numbers.
The Red Cross regularly visited all prison camps. It was their job to report the cause of all deaths. They recorded a grand total of 271,000 among all camps for the entire war. It is a matter of record.
Are you performing the feeble mental gymnastics required to believe that the Red Cross were so incompetent that they were completely unaware of 95% or 5,629,000 deaths?
Zyklon B is an off the shelf insecticide used among other places in Prison camps to delouse clothing and bedding to save lives by preventing deadly typhus. The system used for years before the war employed heating to release cyanide gas, fans to circulate the gas and more to exhaust the chambers to make the de loused articles safe to handle.
Pictures of this equipment and the small de lousing buildings with clothing racks still exist in Prison camps. But no evidence of any gas delivery system has ever been found in the shower houses where the bullshit holocaust allegedly occurred. In fact, the story has changed to that they just threw the heat activated pellets onto the cold drainless floors in rooms full of people.
Such an inefficient method would have taken too long to kill the required number of Jews. The pellets couldn’t be spread evenly in rooms full of people. The cold drainless floors would have delayed the release of cyanide from the pellets that people would have swept away from themselves. Any dead would have released all their bodily fluids and their bodies covering the pellets. Vomit would have been added to the floor prior to entering such a room.
According to Martin Gilbert in his book, Holocaust Journey, the gas chambers at Treblinka utilized carbon monoxide from diesel engines. At the Nuremberg trial of the Nazi war criminals, the American government charged that the Jews were murdered at Treblinka in “steam chambers,” not gas chambers.
Gasoline engine exhaust contains about ten times the carbon monoxide than diesel. Diesel exhaust is relatively safe. Even if the Diesel engines were running at their maximum of 500 ppm, death would take several hours. Far too long to support the narrative.
If Germans had used gas engines, death would have been in a few minutes. But in the holocaust narrative for treblinka diesel was used even though they had plenty of gas for their tanks. Nuremberg still recorded that they were “steam chambers”.
Which stupid lie is more believable? You have to perform some feeble mental gymnastics to buy that.
Jews had been publicly claiming a holocaust of 6 million Jews in various nations no less than 166 times between 1900 and 1945. Only to coerce sympathy to raise money. Like the wastes of skin who fake cancer on go fund me pages.
The story of gassing Jews began as British propaganda to turn popular opinion against Germany. It was inspired to draw attention away from Jewish Bolshevik war crimes in Russia because that would work against allied propaganda. It also served global Jewish interests to create undeserved sympathy for Jews who had publicly organized boycotts of Germany to drive Germany to war.
There is a documented letter from the head of British propaganda to the head of the war office recommending that they cease the “gassing Jews“ propaganda because there was no evidence for it and if found out would work against their propaganda efforts.
The only thing the bullshit holocaust narrative has in common with WW2 is that they were both the creation of Jews.
These Jewish leaders are admitting it. Are they lying?
“We Jews are going to bring a war on Germany”.
David A Brown, national chairman, united Jewish campaign, 1934.
“The Israeli people around the world declare economic and financial war against Germany …holy war against Hitlers people”
Chaim Weismann, the Zionist leader, 8 September 1939, Jewish chronicle.
The Toronto evening telegram of 26 February 1940 quoted rabbi Maurice l. Perlzweig of the world Jewish Congress as telling a Canadian audience that” The world Jewish Congress has been at war with Germany for seven years”.
Slavery has been around for millennia, it’s obviously awful, but to be clear, the British had slaves all over the world. The Irish were sent to the West Indies, the Indians were sent to Fiji and don’t even start on Asia, which has had places like China and Vietnam enslaving their citizens until a few decades ago. Maybe to this day. The Ottomans enslaved the Middle East, Northern Africa and Eastern Europe. The Jews were slaves under the Egyptians. This is not good but it is not unique to the US.
Woke slaves of digital entertainment may call this a masterpiece.
This comment must be read in the voice of Jeremy Clarkson introducing The Stig.
Obligatory.
Or the Stug.
One key historical point you left out: the 1619 project was entirely a response to the failure of the Russia Collision Hoax in their effort to remove Trump from office.
Remember, the news editors assured their news staff that they would come up with a new strategy to get rid of Trump. A couple of months later. They publish the 1619 project and the entire press machine goes on a 2 year push to recreate a racist society. Only 2 years removed from a "post-racial" society, we were now the most racist country in the world.
With the revelations of the Twitter files (that the FBI has been running a political psy-op campaign using the press and social media since before Trump took office) you have a pretty horrific picture of how this drek got promoted to the top of society.
And in the aftermath we have Kmele and maybe 3 other guys outside of the far right arguing against the new anti-racist paradigm. Bonus, we also have Taibbi documenting the beginnings of the command and control structures from "the establishment" that combined both Republican and Democrat operatives.
Until the 4th estate cleans house and returns to being a free press, liberty is under extreme duress. We libertarians are pretty impotent, but we could at least fight for that.
Journalism is mostly lost to us. When Woodward and Bernstein took down Nixon, the lesson that was received by the Left was that journalism could be used as a tool to change the world. And after a generation to replace journalism professors and academics, we now have journalism departments cranking out True Believers in the Cause. Journalists who have never heard of objectivity, or reporting on the facts, but see it all as a way to promote cultural change.
It goes way, waaaay back before Watergate, before the printing press, to the dawn of writing no doubt.
Is true. The era of journalism striving for objectivity wsa but a blip in history. We was fortunate to have experienced a small part of it.
NOT that they were actually objective, but they at least pretended to strive for it.
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When Woodward and Bernstein took down Nixon
That's a bit of a popular myth. Woodward and Bernstein didn't take down Nixon.
It's a popular myth that even Woodward and Bernstein know, but they allow it to walk around uncritically because it was a career booster. But your larger point is taken. Sorry for the ackshyually, but it needs to be addressed when said.
Akshualhy you are right that it needs to be addressed. Journalism has fundamentally changed from when Walter Chronic was the most trusted man in America. Doesn't mean he was right or unbiased, but it's definitely a different era now, when we get to pick and choose the media that validates our particular false narratives.
Okay, I’m loving the Walter Chronic typo!
I remember an analysis, but can't remember who was doing it, that discussed this issue. Back in the day when there was only three broadcasters, and thus, three news outlets, they had to appeal to tens of millions of viewers. This required a much more calm and balanced approach to the news. Like you said, there was still bias, but it was much more restrained than we see today.
But nowadays, with news services and journalists being a dime a dozen, even big outlets like CNN, MSNBC, and Fox, along with broadcast networks, see viewership under 5 million, with cable networks fighting over less than a million, sometimes.
This means that they instinctively cater more and more to extreme. They have to provide what their minimal audience wants or risk losing them. And any loss when you hardly have any viewers is a gut shot. Thus, it causes them to be even more extreme in their reporting.
A great example was look at the ratings drop Fox News had when it finally had enough of Trump and started being critical of him. OANN and Newsmax saw tremendous increases.
Riiiiigght. They connected Nixon to the Watergate break-in, but they didn't find everything and stuff Nixon did after the article was published contributed to his downfall, so Woodward and Bernstein didn't really do anything unusual or extraordinary.
My father, for some God-unknown reason, loved Nixon. I have heard every apologist narrative about how awful it was that Nixon was forced into resignation by his own behavior. It's all bullshit.
Yes, what Woodward and Bernstein did was directly responsible for Nixon being caught. No, G. Gordon Liddy wasn't a good guy. Yes, John Dean did the right thing. Yes, Roger Stone was (and still is) an irredeemable piece of garbage.
I'm baffled why people keep trying to nibble away at the truth about Nixon and Watergate. He did it. He was caught, based (initially, can you at least admit that?) on deeply detailed reporting by Woodward and Bernstein (and, notably, no one else).
It isn't a false narrative. They were the only ones who found out the truth about Nixon and Watergate. After the story broke, other people also found out things and Nixon did even shadier stuff that put the nail in his coffin. But claiming that Watergate would have been discovered by someone else is ludicrous because no one else was looking into it until after the story ran. And without Watergate, Nixon doesn't resign.
A disgruntled FBI guy, Mark Felt, fed Woodward the information, he could easily have passed that info to someone else. To this day no one has explained exactly what the Watergate burglars were after or who sent them.
Read Silent Coup. Watergate was John Dean's idea, he tricked Nixon into the cover-up.
Exactly right.
The break in was a CIA operation, recommended by Dean.
Nixon was trying to protect the intelligence agency but Felt was butt-hurt by not being given the FBI leadership and access to the Hoover files. He led W&B in the wrong direction, somewhere they were happy to go.
Russiagate and several other ops are millions of times worse than watergate
What changed "journalism" in the twentieth century was when Whitewater and Monica almost took down the Clintons. DC responded in true fashion, deciding the keep their enemies closer by making them part of the system.
The combination of newfound power, wealth, and connections along with the impending death of the industry due to the internet was when they threw any sense of shame out the window and became full on court stenographers.
Look up William Randoplh Hearst and Yellow Journalism, usually wrongly attributed as creating the 1898 war with Spain.
Look up newspapers egging on war with Mexico before the Civil War.
Look up newspapers before the Revolutionary War.
No doubt other countries had their own versions.
It goes waaaay back.
So, no biggie then?
This bullshit deflection serves only to lessen response to current conditions and excuse cowardice.
In 2008, a group of "journalists" led by Ezra Klein created a listserv group called "The Journo-List". Their explicit purpose was to defend Obama against all charges both true and absurd. The Rev Wright's blatant racism had become a liability so the Journo-List agreed to make Wright an unperson never to be mentioned. If he was mentioned, the immediate reply in any newspaper or magazine was "Obama never paid any attention to the minister, he fell asleep during sermons" and therefore never heard the virulently anti-American and anti-capitalist diatribes. Barack and Michelle listened this bilious excrement for over a decade but the listserv insisted that neither was affected by, or even noticed Wright's rants.
This wasn't a "conspiracy theory", it was an actual conspiracy exposed by one of the list's members who could no longer endure watching the destruction of his profession.
The listserv group eventually dissolved, but the residue remained and reformed inside the majority of news organizations where dissenters were systematically eliminated.
Something as positively idiotic and utterly bereft of any factual basis as the 1619 Project could never have survived had these dissenters been there to refute the nonsense. Nikole Hannah-Jones would be in the same league as Alex Jones were it not for the purges at various news outlets.
Slavery was created by colonial era white Europeans using black Africans who were the only people in all of history to ever be slaves. They used all their hard work and creative genius to found America, something white people would never be capable of doing on their own. They were eventually freed by Democrat president Andrew Lincoln who led an all black army from Wakanda to defeat the evil white, inbred racists of the southern US.
Where is my Pulitzer?!
accuracy is on par with 1619 project, you should at least get an oscar nomination
Was the largest plantation owner’s name Trump?
There was feud between the Trumps and the Desantis. It was protrayed in the fictional account of the Hatfields and McCoys.
The Beverlys were late to the game, but their descendant Noisome is preparing for battle.
this is 100% accurate. Top Men agree.
Yeah. It's not like the word "slave" comes from slav as a result of so many Eastern Europeans being held in bondage by Spanish Muslims during the Middle Ages. And forget about the Old Testament. Colonial Europeans invented slavery, and only blacks have ever been enslaved.
You mean the Greeks 2000 years before.
No, I don't. Google the origin of the word slave.
The Greeks had Slav slaves long before.
And what word did they use for human property? I'll give you a clue: it wasn't "slave."
No shit Sherlock. What are you today, a flaming genius? What point do you think you are making?
A. You bring up the history of the word "slave" as a tangent to the main discussion. You are a hero!
B. I bring up the history of Slavs as slaves, more in line with the main discussion. I am a zero!
Fuck off, slavver.
I still haven't figured out what the Greeks have to do with the origin of the word.
Still not sure what your point is. Do you mean other cultures though history had slaves? Well, duh. Modern society is historically unusual in that we don't have slavery. It was the norm for, I dunno, ever?
I learned to program on an IBM 1620 Mod I, nicknamed the CADET -- Can't Add Doesn't Even Try -- because it literally had no add/subtract circuitry, it had lookup tables in memory.
You are the original CROUDET -- Can't Read Or Understand Doesn't Even Try.
What a fuckin' maroon.
Well you just outed your age. Old man. Go get lost in stupid parenthesis, or make a formula translator.
Sarc, we’re sending you home early so we can have a meeting. A meeting about you, where you will be labeled a distraction.
Given this problem,. And your drinking (for which you refuse to get help) we’re probably letting you go. I’m sure you’re familiar with that outcome from your decades of alcoholism.
"We don't have slavery"? I guess you are not familiar with the Uyghers in Xinjiang. Slavery has always existed somewhere on the planet. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/against-their-will-the-situation-in-xinjiang
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He’s basically correct, but the Slav/slave connection doesn’t go back as far as classical Greece.
It happened after the Roman Empire became Christianized. There had always been slaves, but in late antiquity it became taboo to enslave fellow Christians, or at least to enslave fellow Christians and sell them to Muslims in the Constantinople slave markets. The most ready source of non-Christians were the Slavs, so the Roman (aka Byzantine) merchants did a brisk trade in Slavic captives for quite a while, right up until the Slavs found Jesus.
So there you have the connection between Slavs, slaves, and Greeks.
The peoples indigenous to the Americas were practicing slavery at the time the first Europeans arrived. It is entirely reasonable to think they were doing so for as long as they had been present.
Slavery is part of the human condition.
I don't know is pre-sapiens had slaves, but it wouldn't surprise me. Ants are aphid ranchers. It's how things work.
Here's an etymology.
Slav (n.)
"one of the people who inhabit most of Eastern Europe," late 14c., Sclave, from Medieval Latin Sclavus (c. 800), from Byzantine Greek Sklabos (c. 580), from a shortening of Proto-Slavic *sloveninu "a Slav," which is probably related to *slovo "word, speech," which suggests the name originally identified a member of a speech community (compare Old Church Slavonic Nemici "Germans," related to nemu "dumb;" Greek heterophonos "foreign," literally "of different voice;" and Old English þeode, which meant both "race" and "language").
Max Vasmer, the authority for Slavic etymologies, rejects a connection to *slava "glory, fame," which, however, influenced Slav via folk etymology. This word is the -slav in personal names (such as Russian Miroslav, literally "peaceful fame;" Mstislav "vengeful fame;" Jaroslav "famed for fury;" Czech Bohuslav "God's glory;" Latinized Wenceslas "having greater glory"), and is perhaps from PIE root *kleu- "to hear."
The reduction of scl- to sl- is regular in English (compare slate). In late 18c. and early 19c. The spelling Slav is by 1866. English it was spelled Slave, influenced by French and German Slave. As an adjective, belonging to or characteristics of Slavs, from 1876
Sarcasm to his sarcasm?
You forgot the Wakanda/Chicago connection.
https://ifunny.co/picture/black-pol-made-wakanda-white-ppl-made-chicago-where-yous-XhP4WAl19
It doesn't need to be accurate. Just needs to provide enough 'facts' to convince activists of the chosen narrative. That said activists can then whip out when trying to bolster their arguements.
I watched about 5 minutes of this. It was clear pretty quickly that she is a racist and views everything through the perspective of race and black victimhood.
She has a great deal of self-loathing for being born to a mixed-race couple when the black side of her family had come out of arguably the worst Jim Crow area in the country in Greenwood, Mississippi.
Some people are born to mixed-race couples and lean into it, talking about how much they love the heritage of both sides of their family. Others, like Hannah-Jones and Halle Berry, cleave to one side completely while never acknowledging the other.
Hollywood pulled this level of retcon with "the Woman King" recently as well.
Took the Dahomey women who famously enslaved so many Africans, under the order of their king (they had to use large women because they had killed and enslaved so many of the men), and tried to turn them into the brave heroes who really wanted to end slavery and transition the economy to selling palm oil...
Problem is, history actually happened, and gaslighting only works on the very weak minded. Of course a quick internet search will confirm they were actually the villians of the story, and slavery didn't happen because white colonizers combed through Africa rounding up slaves despite the brave attempts of these women...the white people just pulled their ships up to shore and bought them from slave markets that were kept going by these very women.
Its pure garbage, made by white-savior hollywood types and militant black activists, and for them. The rest of the country sees it for what it is: revisionist propaganda.
1619 project is the same shit
Yeah but at least The Woman King was understood as a fictionalized account. This is supposed to be a documentary.
They marketed it as "based on true events" or "based on a true story" or something
They were just relying on no one looking into it too much
Yeah but at least The Woman King was understood as a fictionalized account. This is supposed to be a documentary.
The Woman King was forced to admit that it was fictionalized after the outcry.
It was the Africans of the Sahel (Obama's people) who sent the darker skinned Gnawa (African Arabic for Guinea) north on the Saharan caravan trade routes. A practice which existed well before the first Europeans settled in North America, and continued long after slavery was abolished in the US.
Traded them for salt and sugar.
How many for a dozen eggs?
Like, all the way to Egypt?
Cassius Clay was a 19th Century white American who spent his inheritance and risked his life for the cause of abolition.
Muhammad Ali was a 19th Century white European who, after seizing control of Egypt in a coup, launched an invasion of sub-Saharan Africa to take slaves.
Yeah our slave owning, child marrying, founding fathers were totally the good guys!
Considering that, for all their faults, the Founding Fathers created a nation dedicated to liberty -- and that, for all that nation's faults, it hasn't descended into the types of hells that Germany, France, Russia, China, Japan, and many places in South America, Africa, Asia, and even Europe, for that matter, have descended into in the last 300 years or so -- I'm kindof ok with calling Founding Fathers "good guys", even if I find some of the things that they did personally are morally reprehensible.
It's not as if (1) the leaders of all those other countries were angels in their personal lives (and far more often than not, did far worse in their personal lives than even the worst of the Founding Fathers), and (2) even if the leaders of those hell-holes were angels, that we are justified in ignoring the outright evil they enabled in their public lives.
You should read this:
https://www.historians.org/research-and-publications/perspectives-on-history/may-2002/against-presentism
No historical revisionism needed.
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Sad to see the 1619 Project just wholesalely dismiss the contributions of the space aliens and the lizard people to the foundational story of the United States.
Lies make money. Where the hell have you been?
No no. Per sarc only cops profit from lies.
That is “textbook.” Also saw it on a tv show.
I doubt that these types of lies are directly profitable in an economic sense.
Yall need it through your thick skulls that leftists aren't motivated by capitalization, and turning a profit isn't their goal.
As long as you're trapped in basic financial theory, you're not going to understand what the hell you're dealing with.
The longer you keep your heads in the sand, the harder you're going to get hit.
You're wrong about this. The 1619 Project made HNJ incredibly powerful which immediately translated to cash offers - famously from the UNC system - but also through other methods. One of the reasons the right continually loses is because it doesn't understand how government money rewards political leftism. We tend to think of professors and journalists as uniformly upper middle class. But in reality their stars including HNJ make millions. Furthermore their system provides sinecures until death so there's no chance of the money running out.
Socialism rewards the powerful.
Come on, guys. Everything in America is about racism (for the people making money or gaining status from it).
Five Black cops beating a Black man to death in Memphis (with a Black mayor and many blacks in the government) is systemic racism.
The whole systemic racism thing seems racist, as it seems based on the idea that Blacks don't have the individual agency to change their lives, and must rely on government to get them out from under. And when government that should be supportive of Blacks fails to be so, well, that's systemic racism too.
As opposed to the idea that black people have only themselves to blame for their woes? That it's not systemic oppression, it's just that they are naturally inferior? Yeah that seems so less racist.
Look up the WWII G.I. bill just for starters. See how public schools are funded. You have to be willfully blind to think there's not systemic racism at play.
Now look at who implements that racism. You would have to be willfully blind to absolve Democrats of that responsibility.
As for individual responsibility? Yes, to a certain extent, we are all victims of our circumstances, but if we don't take responsibility for our own lives, who will? And why are there so many Democrat voices insisting that minorities cannot succeed in this country, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding?
He's got no answer.
We’re in a post-truth society.
Well we have heard that objectivity, a reliance on "facts," and a sense of urgency are "white supremacy."
Since we're talking about false history and people peddling shitty, nonsensical historical narratives, does Reason care to denounce that time one of their contributors claimed that race was invented in Virginia?
https://reason.com/2020/05/31/i-got-tear-gassed-at-baltimores-city-hall/
Pretty weak sauce. Do you exaggerate all your claims like that?
Race was invented right here in the Chesapeake—in Virginia, to be exact. For two decades after the English Civil Wars ended and King Charles II was restored to the throne, he used the Chesapeake colonies as a dumping ground for England's unwanted radicals. For several generations, meanwhile, Virginia and Maryland had been filling up slowly with African slaves. Add the ever-present Indians, and the English gentry was becoming even more outnumbered than usual.
I dunno, is that much of an exaggeration?
I dunno, is that much of an exaggeration?
Especially given all the other obvious, counterfactual, self-aggrandizing going on in the story.
That dude claiming to be a historian makes Trump look like a brilliant historian.
I'm just trying to figure out if this exchange was before the author mostly-peacefully set fire to an occupied building or after.
Hard to exaggerate when making an accurate representation of what he said.
That's utter claptrap, for a ton of reasons. What was actually created by the Virginia Slave Codes of 1705 was the concept of slavery existing along racial lines. But they didn't invent this out of whole cloth, how would they have known how to define race if they didn't have some concept that existed before then? Beyond that, just read anything historical that predates this, and you'll realize that race has always been well understood. Surely you've read Othello at some point.
The etymology of the term race has gone through some changes, but it wasn't settled by 1705. At that time it was still interchangeable with nationality or tribe or even direct familial link. You'll find writings of people in the 1700s and 1800s claiming that the last son of a family name was the "last of his race." So it's not the case that this shifted the etymology of the term, if the author wanted to make that claim. The word "race" doesn't even appear in the Virginia Slave Codes of 1705.
Moreover, if you read the actual text of the act, it's an abolition of the owning of CHRISTIAN slaves. It does bring race into the mix, of course, with some laws against miscegenation, but the driving thrust of the act was that it was considered wrong for Christians to be slaves. The idea being religious in nature, that it's wrong for Christians to enslave other Christians. And there's indemnities in the Act if free Christians from England, if they were black or mulatto or Indian, to be compensated if someone tried to sell them as a slave in Virginia. It's definitely more complicated than just being a race issue if you understand the historical sentiments of the time. That's not to say there was no racism, but it existed because race was not a new issue at all.
Furthermore, the claim that this was a response to Bacon's Rebellion is pretty tenuous. If the House of Burgesses (by the way, several members of which openly supported Bacon prior to Lord Berkeley forcing new elections to oppose Bacon) was really concerned with dividing races to keep them from uniting in future rebellions, why did they wait 29 years? That would be like Congress just now deciding to do something about the ATF over that business in Waco. It can be a factor, sure, but claiming direct causation as if it's a straightforward narrative is shitty history.
And just throwing it out there as something to bolster an unrelated story of protest against police, like you're just citing completely accepted facts, is ridiculous. The concept of race has always existed, it's why the Greeks used the term "barbarian" for non Greeks, even though they distinguished Greeks as being Spartans, Thebans, Athenians, or Corinthians. City-States were rivals, but they recognized in-groups and out-groups, and definitely viewed Thracians or Macedonians more favorably than Persians because they had a concept of race.
It's beyond ludicrous for anyone with the slightest sense of history to believe race was invented in America.
Herodotus was largely ethnography.
These people claim they care so much about misinformation’s effect on society, and then they turn around, produce, and defend crap like this.
When they bitch about "misinformation" they really mean any facts that don't line up with whatever narrative they're trying to peddle.
You seem to not understand their modus operandi
As a libertarian, I am often skeptical of nationalism, populism and other collective 'isms that tend to hew against people trusting the efforts of individuals to ensure a free society.
That said, the American Story is pretty fucking special. That story has dark points and flaws. It is noteworthy that the US would take nearly 100 years to abolish the practice of slavery. But it is equally noteworthy that slavery had been practiced since time immemorial, and that while the US wasn't the first, it was also not the last to abolish the trade. It is even further noteworthy that no other nation in the history of the planet saw hundreds of thousands of white men- in no danger of becoming slaves themselves- fight and die to end this evil.
The rot of marxism requires people to perpetually reject the past. They want us to reject founders who saw individual liberty (not some vague collective alternative) as an ideal to strive for, even if it could not be perfectly attained. Only by blaming all problems on the past (and minimizing any successes) can marxists agitate for the violent overthrow of the present and future.
In Europe, this was easy. Go to England, and by a person's accent you can tell their neighborhood, and therefore their wealth and thus their place in a rigid class system. But in the United States where language was un-policed, western migration eliminated accents, and any random immigrant could sire the next tycoon, these resentments at classism largely failed to resonate.
But over hundreds of years, statists- largely Democrats, since they ran the federal government for much of the 20th century- have created class structures. While they downplay the fact that mobility through these class structures is rather fluid (and moreso than Europe), they highlight that these structures exist in order to play up Marxist claptrap.
Only by convincing people that they are trapped in systemic classism can marxists convince the people to throw out the system. And as much as I hate collectivism, blaming the problems of individuals on the System (especially when many of those individuals are today part of that system) is the best way to fuel a marxist revolution that will bring pain and suffering not seen since the ravages of the US Civil War.
Sir, well done.
Nationalism is not inherently bad, only when utilized in support of a corrupt state.
Libertarians often support the laboratories of democracy where the best ideas rise to the top. The way those ideas spread is citizens touting their laboratory. The US for 2 centuries was a free country compared to other countries. Yet half the country wanted to adopt worse outcomes from other places. Nationalism recognized the gains and benefits of the freedom to promote freedom in the US instead.
Nationalism turns bad when it supports expansionist beliefs through the military. But nationalism of ideas is not inherently bad itself.
"Nationalism is not inherently bad, only when utilized in support of a corrupt state."
Which is why I am skeptical, not dismissive. And which is why I feel America is pretty fucking special.
I think Nationalism is often a tool. Rather than explain all the important stuff around individual exceptionalism and liberty, it can be easier to rally around symbols and vague notions. It is also how you gather in a big tent without having to reconcile minor differences.
But tools can become crutches, and they can be misused. If you do not understand the theory and purpose of your tool, you will do enormous damage.
"Nationalism turns bad when it supports expansionist beliefs through the military."
Nationalism is bad from the get go. It privileges members or a nation over those it excludes. It shares this undesirable trait with every other form of collectivism.
Families, corporations, churches, and almost any other human institution "privileges members over those it excludes". That is the nature of human institutions and the essence of freedom of association.
"That is the nature of human institutions and the essence of freedom of association."
There are countries founded on nationalist principles and those that aren't. Let's say you are an Arab. Would you prefer life in the US or Gaza? The US was not founded on nationalist principles but liberalism. Arabs enjoy the same rights and protections as everyone else.
You are changing the subject. You are now complaining about nations "founded on nationalism" as if that were anything but the vague claptrap you usually bring up. Your original point was that nationalism was bad from the get go.
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"Your original point was that nationalism was bad from the get go."
I stand by these words. Nothing you've written refutes them. Nationalism privileges members of a nation over others. I prefer liberalism which looks on people as individuals, not members of a collectivity.
And your words were rebutted by NOYB2. And your response was a subject changing dodge. So whether you stand by your words or not, you were non-responsive.
"And your words were rebutted by NOYB2."
I don't see that. Liberals see human rights as universal. Nationalists privilege members of a nation over non members. Two different things.
I don’t see anybody “privileging” one group of people over another in either of those definitions.
The Japanese are not “privileging themselves” by strict immigration policies vis-a-vis the Mexicans because the Mexicans have the same strict immigration policies vis-a-vis the Japanese. The situation is symmetric; neither group is privileged.
And there is no general "human right" to enter countries you are not a citizen of, neither in classical liberalism nor under the universal declaration of human rights.
"The Japanese are not “privileging themselves”
Sure they are. They give themselves all sorts of privileges not afforded to non Japanese. It's even worse in Israel. The situation between the Jews there and the non Jews is far from symmetrical. Woody Allen, a Jew, born and bred in the US could apply for citizenship there and get it as a matter of course. Arabs, not.
The Japanese are not "giving themselves privileges". Everything the Japanese have, the Japanese worked for. If you are not Japanese, you are not entitled to what they worked for and earned because you are not and were not part of their society.
"If you are not Japanese, you are not entitled to what they worked for and earned because you are not and were not part of their society."
Are you in favor of collectivism or opposed to it?
I'm opposed to collectivism. Japan is not a collectivist society.
What does that have to do with anything?
Maybe you don't understand what "collectivism" means?
The US was also founded on the principle that only land owners could vote and that government provided no welfare programs. That is a consistently liberal society.
We have national borders now because we have universal suffrage and a social welfare state.
US law provides rights and protections to US citizens, not to Arabs around the globe.
" That is a consistently liberal society."
It's not a nationalist society. Nationalism is a collectivism which privileges members of a nation over others.
"US law provides rights and protections to US citizens"
Liberalism is different from US law. Liberalism recognizes freedoms as a universal right, not something granted by a particular state.
That is correct: the US was not a "nationalist society", it was a collection of largely independent states with suffrage limited to property owners.
Once the US became a progressive social welfare state with universal suffrage, it necessarily became nationalistic.
" it necessarily became nationalistic."
It was arguably always nationalistic, but the founding principles were liberal.
You just said, and I quote, "It’s not a nationalist society."
Now you argue the opposite? Make up your mind.
"Now you argue the opposite? Make up your mind"
Ideals and practice are often two different things.
Nationalism isn’t collectivism. Collectivism is what you and your fellow democrats practice. And America is for American citizens, not foreigners. They have their own countries already.
"Nationalism isn’t collectivism."
Of course. Collectivism is bad and nationalism is good. Big difference.
Nationalism is good and collectivism is bad.
Amen!
If you haven't read Sowell's critique of Marxism I highly recommend it.
You might also mention that Marxism itself is simply enslavement of the entire population by a ruling elite.
No, it's not! True Communism is everyone getting to do whatever they want, in full, peaceful cooperation, without money or without laws! After ... well, after a ruling elite Dictator of the Proletariat established Socialism and enslaves the entire population, and magically withers away into this peaceful society ....
Which is why, no matter how often an elite established a Dictatorship of a Proletariat that never seems to get around to withering away, True Communism has never been tried ....
Bravo
"the best way to fuel a marxist revolution "
I really don't think you have to worry about a Marxist revolution is the US, or perhaps anywhere else. Marxism, as an intellectual force, was exhausted sometime around WWII, along with psychoanalysis, another movement that held sway in the early part of the 20th century.
These days, it's not Marxism but feminism, environmentalism, anarchism, queer and post colonial studies are the focus of attention of young people, often explicitly critical of Marx and his theories.
""often explicitly critical of Marx and his theories.""
When some of them claim to be Marxist, should I take them at their word?
I think you have it backwards, the marxists are using feminism, environmentalism, anarchism, queer and post colonial studies as a way to get in the door.
"When some of them claim to be Marxist, should I take them at their word?"
Not necessarily. It's more useful to judge people by their actions.
" the marxists are using feminism, environmentalism, anarchism, queer and post colonial studies as a way to get in the door."
What Marxists? As I said, all these movements, including animal rights and vegetarianism have little or nothing to do with Marxist theory and are often explicitly critical. Marxists and Freudians as a force in our culture went out with WWII. The notion that they are secretly using feminism etc to push their ideas is laughable.
That is simply wrong.
There is nothing "secret" about it: modern feminism (and all the other -isms) are rooted in critical theory, which itself developed out of Marxism.
"That is simply wrong."
It is simply right. You should go to the source and read some feminism, environmentalism, queer theory etc and see for yourself.
"modern feminism"
It predates Marx. It goes back to JS Mill who was not a Marxist but a liberal and a noted advocate for free speech. The Suffragettes who agitated militantly for the vote for women predate critical theory. Critical theory is WWII vintage. Newer movements have superseded it.
"“modern feminism”
It predates Marx..."
This is where mtrueman will try bringing up a bunch of historical obscura to confuse the issue and gaslight everyone into thinking he is some sort of expert on this shit. Fortunately, as usual, he makes terribly bad statements that allow everyone to quickly identify his bullshit.
Saying that modern feminism predates marxism lunacy. It is only said by someone who thinks they can bamboozle the internet with nonsense. What we generally see as modern feminism starts circa 1970, and is deeply intertwined with marxism (c.f. "materialist feminism").
But this is par for the course with mtrueman.
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"What we generally see as modern feminism starts circa 1970"
JS Mill was writing about feminism long before 1970. There were others too writing around the same time, mid 19th century. They were not Marxists, but often as not liberals. De Beauvoir and Friedan were writing in the 1950s and were critical of Marxism. The idea that feminism suddenly became Marxist in 1970 is ridiculous.
"This is where mtrueman will try bringing up a bunch of historical obscura to confuse the issue and gaslight everyone"
- Nailed It.
If you're confused, go to the source. Don't let others with a reactionary agenda spoon feed you with their uninformed take on the issues.
Notice how mtrueman squirms. He now talks about first wave feminism, and continues to push the views of feminists from the early or mid century. He then uses these NON-MODERN feminists to support the claim that modern feminism has no marxist relations.
This is mtrueman's style. Bring up a bunch of esoteric stuff to make you think he is addressing your points, when in fact he is addressing irrelevancies.
"He then uses these NON-MODERN feminists to support the claim that modern feminism has no marxist relations."
De Beauvoir and Friedan are modern, post WWII thinkers. It's you who seem stuck with the pre WWII mind set, hence your hand wringing over a Marxist revolution, which is silly because other movements have captured the imagination of young people, especially in the academy. Environmentalism, veganism, anarchism, feminism, etc all predate Marx and are critical of him and his theories. The idea of de Beauvoir or Friedan are Marxists or neo Marxists is lazy and ignorant.
De Beauvoir and Friedan indeed weren't rooted in neo-Marxism; they were the originators of second-wave feminism, but that has been obsolete for decades because like first-wave feminism, it accomplished most of its goals.
Third wave feminism started in the 1990s and fourth wave feminism started in the 2010s. It is third and fourth wave feminism that have been rooted in neo-Marxism. That is modern (21st century) feminism.
" that have been rooted in neo-Marxism. That is modern (21st century) feminism."
Still waiting for you to put aside your sloganeering and define your terms. I've yet to meet anyone who defines themselves as neo Marxists. I'm familiar with David Harvey and Slavo Zizek. They are contemporary, at least living, thinkers, but they simply call themselves Marxist. I don't understand where this neo comes in.
They aren't "my terms". Fourth wave feminism, neo-Marxism, and critical theory are well-defined, widely used terms.
Look up the Wikipedia articles to get started if you are so ignorant that you don't know what they mean.
Yes, but Mill wasn't writing about modern feminism, he was writing about classical liberal feminism, whose goals were achieved many decades ago.
Third wave feminism started in the 1990's, and fourth wave feminism started in the 2010's.
In fact, both feminism and the gay rights movement were taken over by neo-Marxist over the last few decades.
Overt is 100% correct.
I have gone to the source: critical theory and the Frankfurt school. I suggest you do too.
Liberal feminism is rooted in liberalism: equal rights and equality under the law for women. The objectives of liberal feminism were accomplished decades ago, just like the objectives of gay liberation.
Modern feminism is rooted in critical theory (neo-Marxism), demanding not just equality under the law, but equality of outcome.
"Modern feminism is rooted in critical theory (neo-Marxism), demanding not just equality under the law"
I agree that feminists, environmentalists, vegetarians, gays etc are skeptical of the law and the legal system in general, and don't look to laws, courts and legislatures to affect the changes they desire. This doesn't make them Marxists, neo or otherwise.
What makes them neo-Marxist is that they follow a neo-Marxist ideology, simple as that.
"What makes them neo-Marxist "
It's not clear what skepticism about the legal system has to do with Marx, who was writing about capital and class exploitation. Your devotion to this tautology of 'a neo Marxist is a neo Marxist' is telling. It shows just how shallow your understanding of these modern movements is. My advice stands. Please go to the sources directly if you want to understand them.
You tell me. You brought in the red herring of “skepticism about the legal system”, not me.
You mentioned feminism and the legal system:
"demanding not just equality under the law,"
You haven't explained how distrust of the legal system amounts to Marxism who was all about capital and class exploitation.
I didn't say anything about a feminist "distrust of the legal system". To the contrary, I believe equality under the law has been accomplished and has made first and second wave feminism obsolete.
I said that modern feminism is distinguished from earlier forms of feminism that fourth wave feminism demands equality of outcome.
"I said that modern feminism is distinguished from earlier forms of feminism that fourth wave feminism demands equality of outcome."
Because equality under the law is evidently not enough. How does this make feminists 'neo marxists,' whatever that is?
Well, I suggest you read up on neo-Marxism and critical theory and then you'll understand.
Since you believe that "equality under the law is not enough", you're evidently already steeped in that ideology, you just need to read up on the background and terminology.
Wiki, a shitty source, but they aren't wrong here:
"Critical race theory (CRT) was officially organized in 1989, at the first annual Workshop on Critical Race Theory, though its intellectual origins go back much farther, to the 1960s and ’70s. Its immediate precursor was the critical legal studies (CLS) movement, which dedicated itself to examining how the law and legal institutions serve the interests of the wealthy and powerful at the expense of the poor and marginalized. "
This stuff is a direct offshoot from critical theory, in fact the founders were essentially looking for a way to push critical theory with a specific focus of race rather than class, as class-focused marxism has largely failed (at least in the past) in the US due to actual opportunity for the middle class to improve their lives.
Almost all of these victim focused courses, feminism, latinx studies, critical race theory, queer theory...its all repackaged critical theory in which the preferred victim group is imagined as the oppressed proletariat with the main demo (white, specifically white hetero and especially male) being the aggressor/oppressor bourgeoise. With the end goal being perpetual revolution against the oppressor and overthrowing the system. These concepts are consistently repeated and very easy to spot, even at a quick glance.
Also 'critical consciousness' comes up a lot in all of these courses, which is absolutely a marxist theme.
"Marxists and Freudians as a force in our culture went out with WWII. "
Marxism is very much in vogue, you are either in full denial or stupid to miss it.
No, he is a died in the wool commie. And mtrueman is forever trying to gaslight and insist that he and his like don't exist.
Dyed in the wool is what you mean. Wool that was dyed before it was spun into yarn.
The point here is that you’re a commie. Just admit it. I would at least respect you for being upfront about it.
"The point here is that you’re a commie."
What makes you think that? Or is red baiting the only 'argument' you're capable of mustering?
You're an idiot.
The worst part is that you think you're being clever.
In true man’s defense, he’s a moron.
Indeed. If he were truly intelligent he would have a better belief system.
Those -isms are ideologies developed by Marxists based on Marx's intellectual framework. That's why they are called "neo-Marxist".
" That’s why they are called “neo-Marxist”.
Feminism, queer theory, environmentalism etc has nothing to do with Marx. You should make the effort to acquaint yourself with these movements rather than contenting yourself with mindlessly slurring them.
You know that what you are spouting is a lie. And yet you continue to do it. Why? Why is it so important for you to hide the discredited and murderous ideology of marxism and deny that it is the root of all these new ideologies...oh wait. We know why.
You're the one wringing your hands over a 'Marxist revolution' that, I promise you, will never happen. Marxism reached its zenith in mid 20th century and has since been superseded by movements such as feminism, environmentalism, anarchism, vegetarianism, queer and post colonial theory etc.
"You’re the one wringing your hands over a ‘Marxist revolution’ that, I promise you, will never happen. "
I didn't wring my hands over anything. I pointed out the methods and goals of these groups. Many of them explicitly marxist by their own words.
You said "Feminism, queer theory, environmentalism etc has nothing to do with Marx."
This is a flat out lie. You cannot look at, for example, materialist feminism and state that it has "nothing" to do with marxism. You cannot look at Critical Race Theory where they have merely search-and-replaced capitalist bourgeoisie with white supremicists and where many practitioners are ON THE RECORD claiming to be marxists or the scions of marxism, and say it has "nothing" to do with marxism.
You are lying. Everyone here sees that.
"Marxism reached its zenith in mid 20th century and has since been superseded by movements such as"
Right just as Judaism in Spain reached its zenith prior to the inquisition, after which it was superseded by crypto-judaism. Would you insist that crypto-jews have "nothing to do" with judaism?
"I didn’t wring my hands over anything."
You were raising the potential of a Marxist revolution in the US in 2023. And you weren't joking.
"You cannot look at, for example, materialist feminism and state that it has “nothing” to do with marxism."
Opposition to the patriarchy or meat eating, or white supremacy or environmental degradation doesn't make one a Marxist. It doesn't make you a Hegalian or Trotskyite as these are different movements, starting out with different sets of axioms.
I understand your impulse here. It's childishly simple. You hate environmentalism and Marxism, so they have to be the same thing.
And he is correct. "Marxist revolution" doesn't mean "violent uprising". To Marx, "revolution" just meant a fundamental change to the culture and social and legal structure of a society, preferably through peaceful means.
We are in the midst of a peaceful, gradual neo-Marxist revolution. Hopefully, we can stop it.
Culture is always changing. Often peacefully. That's not down to Marx or the Frankfort school.
"Hopefully, we can stop it."
Things change. It's the cruelest law of the universe.
The fact that culture is changing isn't due to the Frankfurt school.
The specific change our culture is undergoing is due to the Frankfurt school, critical theory, and neo-Marxism.
Oh, our society should change: like its kissing cousin, fascism, neo-Marxism, social justice, and progressivism need to be resigned to the dustbin of history and the nation should change much more in the direction of individual liberty.
Yes: Marxism has been superseded by neo-Marxism and critical theory. QED.
We are in the middle of a neo-Marxist revolution, aka a long march through the institutions.
"Yes: Marxism has been superseded by neo-Marxism and critical theory. QED."
We should attempt to get our terms straight. Marxism is about capital and class exploitation. I've never met anyone claiming to be a 'neo Marxist' so I'm not clear what you mean by it. Is it simply old school class warfare Marxist pretending to be feminists, environmentalists, anarchists etc so they can secretly smuggle in their ideas, as someone here has already suggested?
"aka a long march through the institutions."
That's from Gramsci, isn't it? A pre WWII writer. Is that your idea of a neo Marxist? What about Lenin or Mao?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Marxism
People don't identify as neo-Marxists for the same reason that people don't identify as "a believer in an Abrahamic religion": the term is a collective term for ideologies that became popular post-WWII representing modifications of Marxism that attempted to deal with the evident failure of original Marxism to account for the economic and political state of the world, as well as the horrific crimes committed by communists.
No, it is from Dutschke in the 1970's. And it's just a catchy, descriptive phrase for what the left's strategy was post-WWII in an attempt to restructure societies along neo-Marxist lines.
The focus on capturing institutions instead of convincing the proletariat to assert political power is another difference between neo-Marxist ideologies and classical Marxism.
"for the same reason that people don’t identify as “a believer in an Abrahamic religion”
If you're a Christian, Jew or Muslim, you would have no trouble identifying as a follower of an Abrahamic religion. Abraham is a feature of all three. Now if you're a Buddhist or something like that, different story.
"The focus on capturing institutions instead of convincing the proletariat to assert political power is another difference between neo-Marxist ideologies and classical Marxism."
Isn't that a difference in tactics and strategy? Rather than a difference of ideology. People change. Attitudes towards gays for example have changed a lot over the last decade or two. To suggest they've changed because they've been captured by these mysterious neo marxists is infantilizing, dismissive and conspiratorial. You can do better than this.
I'm saying that when you ask people what they are religiously, they tell you they are a Christian, Jew, or Muslim, just like followers of on of the neo-Marxist ideologies will identify as something more specific. That's why you haven't encountered the term much.
Neo-Marxism differs from classical Marxism both in ideology and in strategy.
Attitudes towards gays became liberal and tolerant in the 1990s, before the neo-Marxist takeover over gay and lesbian organizations.
The post-millennial "LGBTQIA+ movement" hijacked gay and lesbian organizations to promote neo-Marxist ideology; they have done nothing to improve attitudes towards gays and lesbians; if anything, they are making our lives worse.
"just like followers of on of the neo-Marxist ideologies will identify as something more specific."
They will, more often than not, also reject Marxism and have no interest in the Frankfort school. That's why placing them all under the rubric of neo Marxism is so ridiculous and dishonest. Jews, Muslims and Christians all have a special place for Abraham. Environmentalists, anarchists and vegans have no special place for Marx or the Frankfort school. In fact they often reject Marx specifically, and have no interest or knowledge of the Frankfort school. What they do share is a skepticism of Liberalism which is not the same thing.
"The post-millennial “LGBTQIA+ movement” hijacked gay and lesbian organizations to promote neo-Marxist ideology"
You think they are promoting the likes of David Harvey, the only person I'm familiar with from the link to neo Marxism you provided. That seems either crazy or lazy sloganeering.
Of course, the reject Marxism: they are neo-Marxists.
Most of them have no idea what the Frankfurt school actually is. Look at you: you appear to be a neo-Marxist and don't even know it.
No, they are promoting intersectionality, critical race theory, equity, and social justice: all neo-Marxist concepts, whether they (you) realize it or not.
Those terms refer to several distinct movements. The currently popular versions of these movements are rooted in critical theory, a 20th century philosophy and ideology that developed out of Marxism.
I can't tell whether you are simply completely ignorant or whether you are deliberately lying.
"I can’t tell whether you are simply completely ignorant or whether you are deliberately lying."
Your confusion might be allayed if you follow my advice and go directly to the source. You'll find nothing Marxist in their work, and they are often critical of Marx and his theories.
WTF are you talking about? Just about every source on modern feminist theory, queer theory, and environmentalism is suffused with neo-Marxist theory.
As I already said, skepticism of existing power structures and the legal system doesn't make one a Marxist or neo Marxist, whatever that is. There are lots of animal rights activists, gays and environmentalists who are deeply conservative and critical of Marx. I get that you disagree with them and want to slur them with every epithet at your command. Today is the day for a red baiting 'Marxist' slur. Tomorrow it will be 'progressive' or 'libtard.' You might even surprise me with something new.
Neo-Marxism, progressivism, and critical theory aren't "epithets" or "slurs", they are technical terms for specific philosophical theories and ideas, chosen by the very people who promoted those ideas.
Well, you have your homework cut out for you: read up on neo-Marxism, read up on critical theory, and read up on the Frankfurt school.
"and read up on the Frankfurt school"
That's straight from the era of the cold war and WWII. The only contemporary Marxist I'm familiar with is Slavo Zizek, and he spends all his time on Lacan and Hegel. It's interesting, but these modern movements like environmentalism and queer theory don't seem to interest him. Like you he's something of a relic from the past.
Correct. Those people created critical theory. That turned into critical race theory in the 1970s; intersectionality, third wave feminism, and critical queer theory in the 1990s; and the current transgender and environmental movement in the 2010s.
Contemporary environmentalism and queer theory are to critical theory as engineering is to pure math: the former uses the latter as a foundation. The people who apply the theory don’t need to concern themselves with the foundations, and the people who are interested in the foundations don’t get involved much in its applications.
"Contemporary environmentalism and queer theory are to critical theory as engineering is to pure math: the former uses the latter as a foundation."
I'm more familiar with environmentalism. I doubt you'll find many well versed in the Frankfort school. I don't know much about it myself. The foundations of environmentalism are a concern for purity, diversity and life. That's what motivates people to activism. I really don't understand how you think they've been taken over by people like Marcuse, a relic from the 60s whose project was a melding of Freud and Marx, two thinkers most environmentalist find irrelevant to their concerns. My favorite 60s relic is Marshall McLuhan, not a Marxist but a Tory from Canada.
Most Marxists have never read Marx or know much about him. Most neo-Nazis have never read Mein Kampf. And most neo-Marxists have never read any of the Frankfurt school writings.
Obviously, dead people don't take over movements. But concepts such as social justice, equity, environmental justice, intersectionality, critical race theory, etc. all are part of the ideology and social philosophy people like Marcuse founded.
As is black liberation theology.
'I can’t tell whether you are simply completely ignorant or whether you are deliberately lying.' When dealing w/ those who demonstrate it, 'and' is the more obvious answer, not 'or.'
These days, it’s not Marxism but feminism, environmentalism, anarchism, queer and post colonial studies are the focus of attention of young people, often explicitly critical of Marx and his theories.
All of which adopted the same intellectual mannequin that Marx and Hegel established, just in different clothes.
"All of which adopted the same intellectual mannequin that Marx and Hegel established"
Can you be more specific? No? Didn't think so.
Quote:
This permeates of modern feminism, environmentalism, queer theory, and other left wing movements.
I suggest you read up on it, and when you have a better understanding, we might start to have an informed debate on it.
Skepticism of power structures goes back a lot further than Marx or his followers in the mid 20th century.
'When Adam delved and Eve span, who then was the Gentleman?'
What is this but a critique on power structures? It wasn't Marx who coined the verse, they were the watch words of the peasant revolt of Wat Tyler et al back in the 14th century.
Martin Luther also was critical of the power structures of his day. Founded the PROTESTant religion, no less. Not a Marxist.
Critical theory isn't just "skepticism of power structures", it is a specific approach to social philosophy rooted in Marxism. I recommend you read up on it and what it actually means. Then you can perhaps start saying something sensible about it.
"Critical theory isn’t just “skepticism of power structures”, it is a specific approach to social philosophy rooted in Marxism."
I'm only responding to your quote. If you meant something else, that's down to you.
No, you're not "responding to my quote". Read it again:
A critical theory is any approach to social philosophy that focuses on society and culture to reveal, critique and challenge power structures.
Merely revolting or objecting to power structures isn't "an approach to social philosophy". Merely being skeptical of power structures as part of a social philosophy isn't the same as "focusing" on it.
Critical theory originated with Horkheimer in 1937.
I suggest you do some background reading, since you seem completely ignorant of 20th century philosophy.
"Merely revolting or objecting to power structures isn’t “an approach to social philosophy”.
Maybe it is if you are an illiterate peasant like Wat Tyler. We can't all be tenured intellectuals writing philosophical critiques of society.
"since you seem completely ignorant of 20th century philosophy."
It's praiseworthy that you are so familiar with philosophical movements of the past century. I'm suggesting that it's time to move on to this century. The young are animated by anarchism, queer theory, environmentalism, veganism etc. Not Marxism. The idea that there's a danger of a Marxist revolution, as Overt warned, is ludicrous and evidence of someone whose thinking hasn't developed since the end of the cold war.
Yes, the world has moved on from Marxism to neo-Marxism and its derivatives: critical theory and modern progressivism.
It’s not “ludicrous”: the violent overthrows of the Marxist past have been replaced by the neo-Marxist “long march through the institutions”. That is, in fact, ongoing.
It is ridiculous, however, that you are unfamiliar with the philosophical movements of both the past and the current century.
He isn't unfamiliar. He is a fan. And the last thing he wants is a growing awareness that neo-marxists are grasping the wheel.
It’s not “ludicrous”: the violent overthrows of the Marxist past have been replaced by the neo-Marxist “long march through the institutions”. That is, in fact, ongoing.
And will continue, because even their own adherents like Freire admit that marxism is rooted in perpetual revolution based on their "oppressed/oppressor" duality. The reason "real marxism has never been tried" and "real marxism" is always somewhere over the rainbow ("We've come so far, yet have so far to go") is because if they actually say what their end goal is, that becomes the status quo. Any established system is the status quo, and in marxism the status quo is always something to rebel against.
It's a hilariously reductive belief system, yet dangerous because it's specifically designed to break down and tear apart otherwise stable societies. Marx didn't love the line from Mephistopheles in "Faust," "Everything that exists deserves to perish," for nothing. That's what happens when you've been led to believe you were thrown into a world that you never asked to enter.
"It’s not “ludicrous”: the violent overthrows of the Marxist past have been replaced by the neo-Marxist “long march through the institutions”.
That's Gramsci. Died in the 1930s. Feminists, environmentalists, anarchists, queer theorists etc owe him nothing. They have different aims and foundational ideas. The idea they are simply stooges for their Marxist puppet masters is conspiratorial and dismissive.
No, it's Dutschke in the 1970's. And he merely coined the phrase.
That is correct: the foundational ideas of contemporary "feminists, environmentalists, anarchists, queer theorists" don't come from Dutschke, they come from the Frankfurt school and the various philosophical movements that have grown out of it in the past 70 years.
Dutschke simply provided a catchy phrase to describe the approach towards changing society already widely adopted by these leftist movements.
"That is correct: the foundational ideas of contemporary “feminists, environmentalists, anarchists, queer theorists” don’t come from Dutschke, they come from the Frankfurt school and the various philosophical movements that have grown out of it in the past 70 years."
Opposition to the free market has been around a lot longer than 70 years. If these new movements are rejecting Liberalism it's for the same reason people have rejected Marxism, for their failure to deliver on their promises. To suggest that a rejection of liberalism can only mean that Marxists have secretly taken over these movements to shape them to their own purposes is really where you want to go? Ignoring the fact that the followers of these new movements don't call themselves Marxists or neo Marxists and are critical of Marxist theory. You can do better than this. You're allowing yourself to be manipulated.
Correct. That’s why it’s called “neo-Marxism”: it shares with classical Marxism opposition to free markets and a desire for collectivism, but it differs from classical Marxism in other ways.
I’m not suggesting that rejection of liberalism “can only mean that Marxists have secretly taken over” anything.
I am telling you that fourth wave feminism, modern gay liberation, and environmental movements have been taken over by people who believe in equality of outcome, critical theory, intersectionality, equity, anti-capitalism, and social justice. Collectively, derive from the Frankfurt school and are properly referred to as "neo-Marxist". That isn't an epithet, it's the correct term.
This isn't a "secret" either, it is a direct observation from someone who has been part of gay and lesbian organizations for decades (and left them for good because of how they have changed).
No, you are simply ignorant and/or playing word games.
"I am telling you that fourth wave feminism, modern gay liberation, and environmental movements have been taken over by people who believe in equality of outcome, critical theory, intersectionality, equity, anti-capitalism, and social justice."
I disagree with this. Feminism, gay liberation, environmentalism, anarchism, animal rights, post colonialism all focus on what they've always focused on. The patriarchy, homophobia, environmental degradation, combating the state, protecting animals, promoting minorities. They haven't been taken over by followers of the Frankfurt school. What they do have in common is a disillusion with Liberalism and a critique of it not going far enough to satisfy them. There is also the impulse to reach out and make common cause with other struggles. Read a book about veganism. You'll find the author making an effort to promote the ideas in the context of minority communities, like American blacks, for example. This is not Marxism. It's no more Marxist than your typical Republican politician who supports progressive taxation, public funding of roads, schools and other infrastructure, as Marx
and Engels explicitly recommended in their manifesto.
That's utter nonsense.
For feminism, you can literally look up the four waves of feminism and how their objectives have changed.
For gay rights, the takeover by the social justice movement (neo-Marxists) roughly coincides with renaming gay and lesbian organizations to "LGBT" organizations.
For environmentalism, the takeover by the social justice movement (neo-Marxists) started some time in the mid-1990s, when the term "environmental justice" was suddenly taking off.
Yeah, note how he tried that bit of misdirection despite neo-marxist critiques going back as far as the 1920s, when the worldwide marxist revolution they were expecting in the wake of World War I didn't happen. The stuff that came out in the 1960s and onward as the New Left made its long march wasn't any different from this on a functional level, they just chose different subjects to apply their dualistic way of thinking.
Having an informed debate with mtrueman is like trying have a rational discussion with a brick wall.
I am presenting facts and making an argument. My respondents are mindlessly repeating empty slogans. The reason: I'm familiar with the subject at hand, the others aren't.
LOL, marxism and neo-marxists movements are the epitome of empty slogans. We're plenty familiar with the subject at hand, you're just deflecting with the same old "that's not real marxism" trope you turds always make.
"the same old “that’s not real marxism”
Feminism, environmentalism, anarchism etc aren't Marxism. They are not real Marxism, either. What kind of fucking moron are you, anyway?
That is correct, they are not, in the same way that potato soup isn't a raw potato.
In the 21st century, these are movements whose ideology is rooted in critical theory and neo-Marxism.
"In the 21st century, these are movements whose ideology is rooted in critical theory and neo-Marxism."
I disagree. Feminism is rooted in opposition to the patriarchy. Why is this so hard to accept? The idea that feminists or environmentalists need or depend on Marx to understand feminism or the environment is wrong headed and dismissive.
"critical theory and neo-Marxism."
Environmentalism is not rooted in Marxism. Try the Romantic movement, exemplified by the poet William Blake who wrote before Marx.
It's not hard to accept at all: that is what makes it neo-Marxist.
They don't depend on Marx, they depend on the Frankfurt school and critical theory. And they understand and apply that philosophy widely.
Environmentalism, feminism, gay liberation, etc. have had many different ideological foundations.
The objectives of those forms of environmentalism, feminism, and gay liberation that were rooted in liberalism in the past were accomplished decades ago. Legal equality and legal protections for these objectives are nearly universal in the West.
The current versions of these movements are rooted in critical theory, and their objectives have shifted from the liberal objective of legal equality to the illiberal objectives of equality of outcome/equity.
"The objectives of those forms of environmentalism, feminism, and gay liberation that were rooted in liberalism "
Not necessarily. Environmentalism depended on state action like the creation of the national park system, and laws for protecting endangered species.
"Legal equality and legal protections for these objectives are nearly universal in the West."
If they've moved beyond that it's because they've proven inadequate to the task. As the noted neo Marxist philosopher George Carlin said, 'the game is rigged.'
The task of the gay liberation movement was to achieve legal equality and decriminalize gay sex. Those were effectively accomplished a couple of decades ago. That's all most of us ever wanted. Neo-Marxists are now misusing the institutions and organizations we created to promote their politics, not our interests as gays and lesbians.
And the same has happened with feminism. For feminism, it's more explicit, because in feminism, people explicitly distinguish four waves.
"The task of the gay liberation movement was to achieve legal equality and decriminalize gay sex. "
It's not for you to determine the tasks of the movement, regardless of your views and sexual tastes. There are evidently many in the movement who aren't satisfied with the liberal approach and are engaging in a more radical critique. If Marxism can fail the movement, why not Liberalism?
"That’s all most of us ever wanted. "
Not everyone though. The fact that some are dissatisfied with the results that Liberalism offers doesn't make them Marxists, neo Marxists, fascists, or anything else.
I’m not “determining” anything, I am stating a historical fact.
In other words, gay and lesbian organizations have been taken over by social justice activists (“the movement”). Many of these activists aren’t gay or lesbian. Nobody elected them. They are financed by progressive political organizations. And they aren’t representative of gays and lesbians as a whole. And as you yourself hint at (“radical critique”), they, like you, are devotees of critical theory, i.e., neo-Marxists. Thanks for confirming what I was saying.
LOL. You mistake technical philosophical terms like "neo-Marxism" and "critical theory" for being "slurs". You are evidently completely ignorant of 20th century philosophy.
It's just red baiting. You don't approve of environmentalism etc ergo it's Marxist, something else you don't approve of. Eight year olds are capable of more profound arguments.
"Red-baiting" would be "your arguments are invalid because you are a communist". I'm not doing that.
I'm observing that feminism, queer theory, and modern anti-racism movements are all derivatives of critical theory, and that critical theory is part of neo-Marxist philosophy. Those are simply facts.
"are all derivatives of critical theory"
They predate the mid 20th century. If anything these movements didn't arise from Marxism, but the failure of Marxism to deliver on its promises.
If Marxism had been successful, perhaps de Beauvoir, for example, wouldn't have spend so much time and energy rejecting it and criticizing it. To say that she derived her feminism from Marx's ideas is wrong headed.
That is correct: those movements arose from the Frankfurt school and related philosophical developments. Those social philosophies are collectively referred to as neo-Marxist by their own proponents. They reject significant parts of Marxism. But they share a common core in that they are anti-capitalist, anti-free market, and collectivist ideologies.
For the nth time: de Beauvoir predated neo-Marxism and critical theory. De Beauvoir was a second wave feminist. In fact, her criticism of classical Marxism probably contributed to the development of neo-Marxist ideas.
It is modern (third and fourth wave) feminism that is rooted in neo-Marxist philosophies. Those modern forms of feminism started in the 1990s and 2010s, respectively. That's about the same time modern queer theory, intersectionality, and the modern LGBT movement started and took over the earlier gay liberation movement.
"Those social philosophies are collectively referred to as neo-Marxist by their own proponents. "
Who? Name names why don't you? As I say those Marxists I'm familiar with call themselves Marxists. Not neo Marxists.
"But they share a common core in that they are anti-capitalist, anti-free market, and collectivist ideologies."
Being anti free market is not Marxist. It's anti free market. Marx was against Liberalism. Being anti Liberalism doesn't make you a Marxist. As I say, just because you disapprove of something, doesn't make it Marxist. Marxist means following the theories of Marx.
"It is modern (third and fourth wave) feminism that is rooted in neo-Marxist philosophies. "
I'm still not clear how you define neo Marxism. Feminism, environmentalism, veganism, queer, anarchists and animal rights people etc were not Marxist but some time in the last decade they suddenly became neo Marxist? They are still not Marxists but hold opinions you find disagreeable and are therefore 'neo Marxists?' Is that roughly it? Anarchists used to be anarchists, but in the past decade or so, after their turn against the free market, they suddenly become neo Marxists? Anti-vivisectionists, too? They've also recently turned into neo Marxists with their anti-fur campaigning?
I define in the usual way the term is used in philosophy. I suggest you look it up.
"I define in the usual way the term is used in philosophy."
Usual philosophy doesn't claim that 21st century environmentalism, feminism, animal rights, anarchism, veganism, queer and post colonialism etc is 'neo marxism.' The link you provided me from wikipedia says neo marxism is an off shoot of traditional Marxist economic thinking, a tiny number of academics. You should stick to 'usual philosophy' and avoid the reactionary hacks you let do your thinking for you.
Can we agree that these movements claim that their objectives are rooted in social justice, post-colonialism, intersectionality, critical theory, anti-capitalism, and equity. Well, then they are rooted in the Frankfurt school.
https://www.thoughtco.com/frankfurt-school-3026079
From our discussion, it is clear that you have assimilated most of the ideas and much of the terminology of the Frankfurt school, you simply are historically ignorant and don't know the origins of your ideas, and on top of that bristle at the label "neo-Marxist" because it has negative connotations.
And to be clear: I am a proud reactionary myself. I reject your reprehensible left wing ideology no matter what label one applies to it.
Can you be more specific? No? Didn’t think so.
Sure, same "oppressed/oppressor" "scientific" social dynamic to explain everything.
You didn't even know that you were spouting the Dee Brown thesis when talking about the development of the American West, so you're hardly one to point fingers about intellectual dullness. You just parrot whatever esoterica your dipshit colleagues in academia spout.
I am pointing at you, moron. You have nothing but contempt for what goes on in the academy and know even less than I do.
I certainly do.
That may be so, but I evidently know a lot more about what goes on "in the academy" than you do, given that you don't even know what neo-Marxism and critical theory are.
Hell, I know more about it that he does, and I'm not even in academia. I don't know what his excuse is.
I suspect that his excuse is that he believes in the Communist "Big Lie" -- that there is no lie too big, that should not be told, should not be pushed, and should not be defended, if it can be used to establish Communism.
But he wouldn't tell us that: it would reveal the truth about him, and about the stuff he's trying to support.
FYI…Marxism now means that 51 percent of the population vote to disband the judicial system, congress, rewrite the constitution and vote in one man rule dictatorship.
Marxist now means Democracy
Peru:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/cuba-takes-aim-at-peru-democracy-capitalism-socialism-terrorism-pedro-castillo-constitution-vioence-machu-picchu-11675006892
Marxism/socialism always meant majoritarianism. They don't call it a "dictatorship of the proletariat" for nothing.
Only Marxism criticizes the past? Christianity thinks we've been fucked for 6,000 years and can only escape our terribleness by doing some magic twirls or whatever.
Learning from the past is traditionally seen as important. So like all countries the US has some triumphant stories and some horrific ones. As adults there's no need for us to retreat to psychologically comforting mythologies. That just gets us into trouble.
But most of us can agree that Enlightenment-era liberalism and democracy, first really put into practice here, is a good thing, that free markets are good, and so are the technological and social progress that resulted from both.
So what we must do is embrace the policies and attitudes that led to the good outcomes and reject the ones that held us back. You mention immigrants. What are we doing to immigrants now? Welcoming them with open arms so they can build up their own industry on the cheap and contribute to our future prosperity?
Oh no, it's pure racist reactionary hysteria, accompanied by religious zealotry and vampiric kleptocratic capitalism. All the bad stuff is usually what accompanies your plea for jingoism.
Consider that progressives don't, in large part, actually want to punish the country for its sins. That's your people's practice. We just want to improve it, all the while you people tell us nothing needs improving (except all the stuff that needs to be purged violently).
I agree: we must reject socialism, Marxism, and progressivism.
People like you want to flood the country with illegal migrants, to the detriment of immigrants like myself.
As a libertarian I want to make the free movement of free people not illegal.
Me too. We can do that as soon as we abolish the social welfare state, taxes, and universal suffrage, between nations where free movement is reciprocal.
Anything else is not libertarian.
You are not remotely a libertarian. That's just bizarre for you to claim.
"Consider that progressives don’t, in large part, actually want to punish the country for its sins."
Hogwash.
The "1619 Project" is nothing but an effort to prove that America is fundamentally sinful, and deserves every punishment that is meted out against it.
And the "1619 Project" isn't the only project that attempts this. "A People's History of the United States" is yet another project that distorts history in an attempt to demonstrate freedom-loving America deserves to be destroyed. Indeed, it's easy to find examples of America's sinful nature among Progressive works.
The difference between Progressives and Christians? Both may believe America is sinful, but Christians believe that America can be redeemed.
Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I find that attitude silly. It would be convenient as a way of dismissing progressive social politics wholesale if you could pigeonhole it all as some fallacy like original sin. (Interesting how most of the people criticizing Progressivism for acting like Christianity actually support it when Christianity does it.)
But couldn't the problem be that you're interpreting even the slightest advance of minority rights and increase in minority wealth as a "punishment" for you? Not that you wouldn't perhaps deserve it, considering the whole shtick is you wanting to hold onto stuff you only have because your ancestors were not chattel.
I don't agree with any progressives real or imagined who hate America and want to do harm to it. I see no point in that. Tuning your moral compass accurately to the past is helpful in avoiding its mistakes, but the whole point is to make an America worth being proud of.
The conservative alternative is, of course, the most perverse of all: be proud only of the America of the past, and seek to destroy the America of the present, especially those parts of it that are worth a shit.
"I don’t agree with any progressives real or imagined who hate America and want to do harm to it. I see no point in that. Tuning your moral compass accurately to the past is helpful in avoiding its mistakes, but the whole point is to make an America worth being proud of."
Considering the significant inaccuracies -- I lost count how many, but it's more than a dozen, and the inaccuracies all point to the idea that slavery is the key component of its Founding, rather than a thorn in its side -- that the 1619 Project peddles, if this is indeed your goal, you should reject the 1619 Project outright. It is too dishonest to be used to make America a "country to be proud of".
Do you know what makes America a country worthy to be proud of? The Declaration of Independence. The Constitution. The determination of the population to defend individual rights. Do you know what brings shame on America? Departures from these principles.
The creators of the 1619 Project are determined to make slavery a founding principle of the great American Experiment, and replace the actual Founding of this country with the notion that "slavery and racism is in its DNA". And it has to lie every step of the way to get to this point.
Marxism = people are not individuals but are subunits of (abstract) identity class; these identity classes exist in a perpetual state of war in the roles of either oppressor or oppressed
Progressivism = centrally planned social engineering via State force, with the ultimate goal of manufacturing "New Man"
All additions or alterations to the above definitions are merely euphemisms and/or attempts at obfuscation.
*merely expansions, euphemisms, and/or attempts at obfuscation
“it also speaks to a deeper underlying negligence around matters of basic fact. ”
It’s not negligence when it’s intentional.
" And I do hereby farther declare all indented servants, Negroes, or others (appertaining to rebels) free, that are able and willing to bear arms, they joining his Majesty’s troops, as soon as may be, "
So it was like the Emancipation Proclamation, in that it was a punishment for rebels, not a freedom document.
If the facts aren't on your side, lie your ass off.
Find 'new' facts.
Facts don't matter if your beliefs are based upon emotion. Know what I mean? These beliefs could include evil Europeans inventing slavery, Hillary beating Trump, Trump beating Biden, and the vaccine being a hoax.
I can't wait for the scene where Patrick Henry says "Give me slavery over the blacks or give me death!"
Can we trade one ENB, one Emma Camp, and one Fiona Harrigan, and either a Binion or a Boehm for another Phillip Magness?
The pair could collaborate to produce a magness opus.
Maybe learn some game theory from Magnus Carlsen.
I’d like to know where I rank on The List.
You can't reason someone out of a position they weren't reasoned into. Hence wokeism is impervious to facts.
It is about swaying the fence sitters.
Never let a silly thing like the truth (which is a racist cis-hetero patriarchal term, of course) get in the way of crafting The Narrative.
That tends to happen when you try to re-write history around your cockamamie political beliefs.
I gave up on Hulu. I picked it up recently to watch "No Murders In the Building", a truly great show, but I didn't renew. It's definitely a Woke streaming service. Not just its shows, but the adverts it sends along with the shows. While I did notice a Christian dating service advertisement, there's also quite a lot of Woke advertisements.
Is it really Woke or just targeted towards a younger demographic and they assume all younglings are Woke? Dunno. But I don't get that vibe from Wokester Disney+ or Paramount+ or even Reasonoids most hated Amazon Prime. Anyone else get that feeling from them?
I do get the sense that Amazon does a lot less agenda pushing than other streaming services. Bezos just wants all the money.
they just do it all at once with one billion+ dollar TV show rather than a bunch of smaller ones
It’s a business decision. Forgoing the woke garbage on Prime leaves him with more revenue to subsidize his WaPo propaganda rag.
They'll show this in schools, right after Transexual Story Hour and just before the "Girls" Swim Meet.
It seems that Hulu has shed any semblance of truth in the hopes of running rings around the competition. I wouldn't waist my time on it.
It isn't Hulu, it is Hollywood in general.
Easy money has allowed these big tech companies to start throwing around dollars to try and bring in content. And of course all these lefties (and charlatans fleecing them) think a bunch of woke nonsense is a good bet for their money. It is all over netflix, and hulu, and amazon and everywhere else. Because a bubble of lefties really thinks there is a massive market of america-haters out there.
"Because a bubble of lefties really thinks there is a massive market of america-haters out there."
I don't know about "massive," but they definitely see a market share; now whether or not that pans out for them we will see. And then it will be on to the next thing that can be expected to bring in the $.
Will be interesting to see if there is an American left to hate if these people get their way. I can see a new nation centred on the northeast corridor but still ruled by mostly white progs and the bipocs they groom to echo their propaganda and never question that their rulers might be racist because they are still white
"Will be interesting to see if there is an American left to hate if these people get their way."
Maybe you should consider Yugoslavia, which Balkanized itself into parts as a result of nationalist conflict with much bloodshed. Countries come and go and borders are as easily erased as they are drawn on maps.
"I can see a new nation centred on the northeast corridor but still ruled by mostly white progs"
Georgia is on my mind. Once the industrial center of the old south, it increasingly is the focus of black american migration from the northern states and it shows in the politics with blacks flexing their muscles by electing non Republicans to the house and senate, something not seen since the days of Jimmy Carter.
Yugoslavia fell apart because it was never a cohesive entity to begin with. That's what happens when you try to force different cultures and societies into a single nation using authoritarian government.
Blacks were voting Democrat in the South even during the segregation and eugenics era.
"That’s what happens when you try to force different cultures and societies into a single nation using authoritarian government."
Wouldn't surprise me if it happened in the US for much the same reason.
"Blacks were voting Democrat in the South even during the segregation and eugenics era."
That was the era when blacks were leaving Georgia for the industrial north. Now many are returning which once again changes the Georgia political landscape.
It wouldn't surprise me either: Democrats are behaving increasingly like the socialist government of Yugoslavia.
So? The fact remains that blacks voted for racists, white supremacists, and segregationists because Democrats effectively bought their votes through government programs while keeping them oppressed. And that's still the situation today.
Wait. Isn't Georgia also the State that recently elected a black AG? A Republican black AG?
Maybe your understanding of racial issues in Georgia aren't nearly as ... ahem ... black and white as you make them out to be.
"A Republican black AG?"
In a two party duopoly that sort of thing will happen from time to time.
Once upon a time, blacks weren't even allowed to vote in Georgia, let alone elect themselves to political office.
Fun fact: it was Democrats in Georgia who didn't allow blacks to vote or hold office. Republicans tried to change that. Some of them even got lynched for their efforts.
Now, Democrats expect blacks to fall in line with the program, and if they don't, they are "Uncle Toms" and "The Black Face of White Supremacy".
Even in this duopoly, it's pretty clear that the Democrats, despite all their protestations, are still the Party of Racists.
I know it must appear that way to someone, such as yourself. That has no sense of patriotism, or reverence for our constitutional republic.
"That has no sense of patriotism, or reverence for our constitutional republic."
I beg your pardon.
I never promised you a rose garden.
At least you admit it. You should really leave my country. You have no place here.
It's circling the bowel, to be sure.
(Sorry, best I could come up with, but didn't want to see a pun unanswered.)
+++
The other interesting fact no one seems to get right is Alexander Hamilton was black.
I though he was Puerto Rican.
What's the difference?
Puerto Ricans can vote.
The seasonings for the ribs.
That Bastard.
Meh-why bother with facts when facts themselves are racist?
Then, to prove how serious they were about ending slavery in The Colonies, The British shot Crispus Attucks.
He was enslaved in Massachusetts so he doesn’t count. We all know slavery only existed in Red states.
Trump created slavery.
I'd say this is a minor problem compared to the major historical errors that rattle around in American minds about slavery, starting with the absurd idea that slavery is some kind of uniquely American institution.
"the absurd idea that slavery is some kind of uniquely American institution."
How is this a 'major problem?' I don't think I've encountered a single person who would claim that.
I've encountered people who have claimed that. I have also met people who have tried to insist that America's slavery system was somehow uniquely horrible compared to the slavery that has been practiced around the world.
"I’ve encountered people who have claimed that. "
And you believed them? You need to exercise your critical faculties.
"America’s slavery system was somehow uniquely horrible "
You don't see the horror? England ended slavery with scarcely a whimper. It took some 600,000 dead to end slavery in America, still the costliest war fought by the nation. You don't see anything horrible in that?
Have you by any chance read up how slaves in the Middle East were treated? The reason why there aren't many descendants of those slaves is that most of them were castrated in violent ways, and most of them died rather young from the way they were treated.
Yes, the Civil War was horrible for America -- but it wasn't horrible for the slaves. And yes, Great Britain was able to "end slavery with barely a whimper". How many slaves were in the isles of Great Britain? How difficult was it for them to enforce this decision by fiat on their colonies? How much blood and treasure did they lose trying to enforce the ban in places they would be considered "imperialists" today? Even for Great Britain, the ban didn't end slavery overnight!
This project needs better oversight (any True Scotsman will do nicely)
So it has been thoroughly and objectively proven a complete lie, yet Hulu still makes a "docuseries"?
The sheep are insane.
A complete lie? Don't you think the issue is that you need to not think very hard about things?
You don’t, not that you’re capable of any real deep thought.
Oh, sure, the issues deserve some hard thinking.
But that doesn't mean that the "1619 Project" isn't a complete lie.
An ahistorical and dishonest presentation from hannah-jones? What were the odds?
There is a great demand for what basically is slavery porn, insisting that slavery was inherently an American thing (and a lesser extent, only a white thing). Since the facts don't fit that, they have to change the facts
Saw the same thing in the Woman King, where a slave trading queen was transformed into an abolitionist.
At least coverage of this topic is getting better. Of course, the 1619 project is incorrect history. It is also mindnumbingly stupid. But what is being forgotten is that, at its heart, it is racist. That is the heart of the originator. Open racism. It would be no different than a Nazi or KKK member writing about black history, based on facts that are twisted on purpose, specifically to make black people look inferior. No one is inferior because of skin color of history.
Pay attention to the details. The complaint is that America was more racist than the 1619 Project says. Conservatives want to make sure we know the full account of just how much we Americans loved keeping black people in slavery in 1776.
"We Americans" hated keeping black people in slavery even in 1776, as is clear from the press and discussions at the time.
But Southern slave holders (later Democrats) wanted to continue the practice.
Yes, I've heard tell it was something of a contentious issue.
Nah, your fellow travelers puke up the pablum offered them by the Marxist traitors pushing CRT. That’s what you hear.
I don't understand why you fill your head with Tucker Carlson's hysterical lies if all it's going to do is make you angry all the time.
And now you’re raving about your dreamboat Tucker Carlson again. You can’t grasp the idea that as I am not an idiot, like you, I don’t need anyone else to tell me what to think.
I tell you what to think. You’re just too stupid to listen.
That's it? Oh no, they said he "inhabited" the estate they showed on the screen when he really just owned it! Rescind the whole thing then! They messed up one word. Sheesh what clap trap.
This attempt at a hit piece was obviously just done so reason could have their provocative article title, which would allow conservative readers to dismiss the whole thing out of hand. If I wanted attempts at manipulating readers like this I would've gone to fix news. Do better Reason.
The only other thing you have of barely any substance is some historians disagreeing on the size of the British abolition movement, which is a moot point anyway given American reaction to the Somerset decision banning slavery in Britain, but not the colonies. Obviously anyone with half a brain saw that boundary of law as logically arbitrary and probably momentary. (Indeed it was abolished colony-wide a couple decades later) Do we really think the timing was just a coincidence especially given how long it took need to cross the pond in those days?
We practically took up arms as soon as we could hear about it... but yeah those things were toootally unconnected. Right.
Learn more about the connection between slavery and the American revolution in the book "Slave Nation" for even more details on this and how the preservation of slavery in the south led to the worst parts of the constitution which still plague us today.
We made a deal with the devil, trying to keep slaver states in the union, and we are still paying for it. The Electoral college, our vastly disproportionate senate representation, the 2nd amendment... All that was to make sure slavery was protected well after the revolution.
And lol and behold, the UK ended slavery everywhere in their reach finally officially in 1834, near 3 decades before we managed it.
Please Reason, go back to getting writers and editors without a clear agenda. I tried giving you a chance...
Look at the number of comments claiming that the whole project is completely false.
They just need one thread to pull. It could have been anything. They don't even care how minimal or boring the fact check is. They know half the country will flip a switch in their brain the instant they get the excuse.
It helps when you approach the world in black and white. That's the best mindset to have when your political philosophy is totally about which leader to follow without question, and which faction is pure evil.
The 1619 project is largely garbage. This is just one example of it.
Leftists are incapable of sustained rational thought.
Well it's casting the guy as a proponent of abolition. But he went on, after the revolution, to become the governor of the Bahamas where he gained ownership of many more slaves and continued importing them. So the idea that Americans had to rise up to defend slavery from people who would continue to use slaves for the rest of their lives is ahistorical.
Even as he's signing his potential emancipation order, he's got slaves on the damn ship with him. So it's ridiculous to think Americans had to go to war because he was about to abolish slavery.
Sure, if you ignore a lot of the lies they're peddling, then it doesn't look like there's many lies in their narrative.
Is this a singular fact check on an otherwise interesting piece, or does it serve some greater narrative about the piece and, by extension, American history?
It's interesting that the argument is that the American Revolution couldn't have been about slavery since everyone was simply pro-slavery at the time. You want a different nontraditional narrative approach? How about that it doesn't matter how righteous the American Revolution's motivations were considering not a single enslaved person or woman was asked his or her opinion on the matter?
The motivation must necessarily have been too narrow to be described as liberal in any modern sense. Even the one we get is petty: taxation without representation.
That is false: Americans were generally anti-slavery and at the founding, slavery was outlawed in five states already.
And I don't think it's honest to dismiss founders' attitudes even when they paradoxically owned slaves. It's sort of how people drive gas cars even if they think global warming is the greatest problem in the world. You can't always escape the system you're in.
It would just be nice if we didn't have to fight a bloody war every time we had to right a great wrong.
Well, maybe this time we will be able to stop the castration of gay kids and minorities without a war.
And if we can’t, the silver lining will be a massive reduction in the Marxist population. Which is never a bad thing.
FOX News has turned your brain into gazpacho.
It's a fact, Tony, that if you favor gender transition of children, you favor the medical castration of children because of either mental illness or homosexuality, a position you share with eugenicists and Nazis.
Those facts aren't altered by any rationalizations or word games you come up with.
Uh oh, Tony is raving about Fox News again. That thing he watches every day while bitterly masturbating to Tucker Carlson.
Pimps the 1619 Project, and laments writes with a clear agenda.
Cognitive dissonance, thy name is Daws.
Daws you are so full of shit your eyes are brown.
England was fighting wars all over, especially with the Corsican Monster, and needed money to pay for them so they passed the Stamp Act to extort money from the Colonies. Easy to understand why this pissed off peeps in America who simply wanted to get on with their lives. Both slave states and non slave states were equally pissed. Often over looked was that Charlstown was the richest city in the Colonies just prior to the Revolution and probably more pissed than any one at having to deal with the Stamp Act.
England would have over joyed to let the slave states in general and Charlestown in particular keep slaves if they were willing to pay the Stamp Act taxes; and the same goes for the non slave states.
"and the same goes for the non slave states." WRONG. England did not allow the colonies to ban slavery, or even the slave trade. For example, when the legislature of Massachusetts Bay approved a law prohibiting the importation and purchase of slaves by any Massachusetts citizen, The Loyalist governor of Massachusetts, Thomas Hutchinson, vetoed the law.
Massachusetts, and New England generally, did not support the revolution so they could keep their slaves. Among other reasons, they supported the revolution so they could ban slavery. If the 1619 "historians" did not know this they are utterly incompetent; if they knew it and omitted it, they are utterly dishonest.
Just so as I understand... the biggest criticism of the 1619 Project is the claim that the American Revolution was partly motivated by fear of pressure from Britain to abolish slavery.
The counterclaim is that no such fear was necessary, since there was no major abolitionist movement in Britain in 1776. In other words, the big problem with the Project is that slavery was even more socially acceptable in 1776 than it would have us believe.
So the conservatives who came out of the woodwork to criticize this project want to make sure we know that a) America's true birth year is 1776 and b) We were even more racist then than the 1619 Project said we were. Okay.
Naturally, they never came out of the woodwork during the preceding centuries to challenge the grossly childish and whitewashed version of history we all learned in school. So I guess this is an improvement in the other direction?
So the conservatives ended slavery??? YEP; That's correct.
Against Democrats wishes??? YEP; That's correct.
Today's Democrats (And yours) biggest desire is to enslave the entire Healthcare Industry and it's Laborers with Gov-Guns to be forced to SERVE you for ?free? (or maybe shelter and food stamps?)...
Yes; That's correct too.
So; Democrats LOVE to project everything they do onto anyone else they can to overt attention to exactly what they're doing? Yes; That's correct too.
No, the biggest criticism of the 1619 project is that it is full of errors.
The article discusses one of the many errors in the 1619 project.
Name another.
You can start here:
https://nypost.com/2020/01/24/scholars-are-eviscerating-the-new-york-times-1619-project/
Dishonest detected.
This commenter asserts
which is a lie.
In reality, the criticism is aimed at only the first episode of the docuseries, as made clear in the subtitle:
The first episode paints an enslaver, plantation master, and Royalist autocrat as a leading and even celebrated agent of emancipation.
Right. I never paid much attention to this story. I'm just surprised that the extended conservative freakout was about making sure we understood that the founding generation really really liked slavery.
No, it’s about not letting Marxist traitors rewrite history, and replace the truth with endless lies designed to promote their agenda.
That's why you become educated and thus immune to anyone's "agenda."
The projection with this crap is so amusing. You're always assuming someone's after you with an "agenda." After the youth with ideas.
It never even occurs to you people that's it's possible to think for yourself. Why don't you check in with Daddy Tucker and see if he can explain what that means.
“You’re always assuming someone’s after you with an ‘agenda.’ After the youth with ideas. ”
LOL… Which party just got busted for Gov censoring on Twitter? As well as most all mainstream outlets? Which party censored the sitting president from all the media outlets they could?
No one is just ‘assuming’ anything. The writing has been on the wall for quite sometime and the evidence is over whelming.
Educated with Lies & Propaganda =/= Educated.
Kind of goes in hand with; Science that =/= Reality isn't Science at all.
....because that's what CRIMINALS do; to STEAL un-justly...
Just like all the scammers on the net. Go here to get your $1M stimulus check..
PS Tony; Still waiting for your donation to my Universal Basic Income and Universal Basic Healthcare. Chop, Chop.... U say you believe put your money where your mouth is.
"...That’s why you become educated and thus immune to anyone’s “agenda.”..."
You claim to be educated, and you never post anything which does not promote you socialist agenda.
But one more lie from Tony...
No, Tony, that isn't the biggest objection to the "1619 Project". The biggest objection was -- and still is -- how the project shoehorns all sorts of historical things, both in the history of the United States, and out, to say that America was somehow founded to be racist and slavery-happy.
The "1619 Project" claimed that double-ledger accounting was some sort of racist plot to establish slavery. The claim was easily disproved.
This is the only problem I remember right now, off the top of my head, but there were at least a dozen other asinine, ahistorical claims designed specifically to slander and defame the founding of the United States, in an attempt to make it uniquely racist and evil.
This article is merely one of those attempts to set the record straight.
While I'm sure you, personally, Tony, want us to reject the freedom-loving history of the United States, and be convinced that slavery and racism is built into the "very DNA" of the country, I, for one, want to embrace a country that was founding in a world of slavery, and strove to overcome that slavery to establish a beacon of freedom for the world.
But then, you're a Democrat. You want to re-instate slavery -- you are still bitter that upstart Republicans destroyed your wonderful institution -- and you're trying to get us to reject freedom so that we would be your happy slaves.
But America's past is very much built on racism. All major institutions were structured to benefit whites at the expense of blacks. Blacks still see poorer social metrics as a result of generational oppressions.
So your big objection is that some academic got the particulars slightly wrong?
Or no? What larger narrative would you like to force down our throats? What's the point of all this?
Fact: blacks were better than whites on many social metrics prior to the CRA and the Great Society.
Fact: immigrants, including black immigrants, come to the US with nothing and succeed far better on average than US-born blacks.
The point is that you are delusional about the causes of racial disparities in the US. In fact, people like you and the policies you espouse are to blame for those disparities.
So your theory is that blacks have lower social metrics because they have too many civil rights and government subsidies.
I wonder why that doesn't apply for oil executives.
Because contrary to your BS-Propaganda.. Oil doesn't get government subsidies that would be your ever so loving Green Energy Industry that RUNS entirely on government subsidies.
Its humorous how easily you defy obvious truths right in your face.
How much government spending did Biden just pass for Green Energy again?
Roughly speaking, yes. The details are more complicated.
It does work the same way: businesses that receive government subsidies or government protectionism generally become uncompetitive and fail.
US oil companies receive no significant government subsidies; they receive about $20 billion in oil-specific tax breaks.
"...US oil companies receive no significant government subsidies; they receive about $20 billion in oil-specific tax breaks..."
All business depreciate their plants; oil companies have their fields as their plants. Like that metal-stamping machine in the Ford plant, they become less valuable over time and are taxed accordingly.
Tony, being totally ignorant of both econ and business finance, would find this surprising if he could understand it, but he's happy repeating lies about which he knows nothing.
Correction: "But the USA’s past is very much built on GETTING RID OF racism."
Why; That's exactly why there was a Civil War you d*pshit..
The USA wrote a US Constitution (Ya know that thing you hate) that insisted all people are created equal regardless of skin-color....
Geez; You Leftards are just as Stupid as they come.
It would be nice if Democrats could get past trying to paint their Slavery Part of the Past as no such thing; and more appropriately STOP their Slavery intentions of the Present. (i.e. MORE, MORE, MORE Gov-Guns enslaving those icky people for my *free* pony.)
Something about leopards changing their spots or something?
Didn't you know? "Republicans and Democrats switched in the 1960's!" according to Democrats.
LOL... Right. When all they did was switched their skin-color based racist policy and added a big helping of gender-based slavery to their slavery obsessed party and labelled it equality.
The party of (racist,sexist) "[WE] Gang-Affiliation RULES!" with Gov-Gun Force (i.e. Demands) against those icky supply people.
African slavery... I don’t think Africans, taking belt -road loans are going to like their new owners when they default.
One of the best rebuttals to Hannah-Jones's absurd theory is the Declaration of Independence itself. Its 2d paragraph opens with its most famous words:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. . . . "
Jefferson intentionally changed John Locke's formula of "Life, Liberty and Property" to "Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness" for one reason. Black slaves were considered "property," and if Property were an inalienable right, then American slaveholders would logically claim that slavery was an inalienable right.
Also, Jefferson inserted the redundant word "equal" for two reasons.
(1) Because Great Britain was a class society, people would argue that some classes had more or better inalienable rights. Thus, the inalienable rights of the aristocracy were superior to those of the common man. Thus, Jefferson added "equal" to make certain everyone understood that the Declaration was doing away with Peerage.
(2) The second reason to insert "equal" was to emphasize that everyone including Jews, Blacks, etc had the same inalienable rights. (It did NOT mean equality of outcome.)
Every Southern who signed the Declaration knew that the Declaration lay the ground work to end the institution of slavery. If their goal had been to preserve slavery, then none would have signed the Declaration.
Hannah-Jones's thesis is so absurd that we should ashamed that anyone takes it seriously. America, however, has always held a racist belief that Blacks are inferior and cannot be held to the same standards as Whites. This horribly racist theory is the basis of Victimology and Wokeism and Karen Bass has brought it to Los Angeles. With all its corruption and other ills, LA City Hall was not racist until Karen Bass and her Wokerism arrived.
To be fair, we all think we're victims of society in one way or another. Occasionally I will hear black grievances squeak in through the endless wall of noise that is white conservative whining.
Granted, centuries of brutal oppression is hardly the affront that is a drag queen reading a book to children.
Nothing like the ear shattering wailing of entitled, wealthy, privileged Americans as a whole.
Maybe you should support stopping the "oppression" by putting down Gov-Gun Forces (LIMITED Government) instead of cherry-picking excuses for MORE, MORE, MORE Gov-Gun "oppression".
The only shrieking I’m interested in is the screams of you and your fellow travelers as they pass from this earth. Which will be a symphony of justice.
It wouldn't be a Reason comments section without someone wishing genocide on his political adversaries.
Weak, stupid people like easy solutions. That's why all dictators and would-be dictators are weak and stupid, and they rely on the simple country folk as their power base, and they always go after academics. Not because you're bloodthirsty, but because you're dumb.
Genocide? You amd your fellow travelers aren’t a race. You’re a bunch of belligerent, totalitarian Marxists who won’t leave me alone. Keep pushing and you will leave me alone. Or else. And Tony, make no mistake, your intellect is the inferior one here. You only have an IQ of 85.
The smart move is for you to leave everyone alone and abandon your bullshit beliefs.
Who said Elmer Fudd the CHUD wanted to kill you? That's different from saying the world would be better off without you. Doesn't require a dictatorship for that.
Maybe you should reconsider defending the 1619 Project and repent.
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This Hulu propaganda film will be shown to public school and college students all over America. It deserves to be parsed very closely and rebutted by someone more talented than I, and then torpedoed and blown out of the water.
Oh my goodness is everyone all right? Apparently we have survived the comments are down crisis. Unless….there was a culling? Nah, unherd off. Still, roll call please!
(Sorry, I have to do this on every article from today. Just to be safe—-oh and sustainable—oh yeah and equity.
Comments were down earlier?
I don't know the full extent of it -- for all I know, there could have been a point where the comments had disappeared altogether -- but there was a period where I would click on "reply" ... and nothing happened.
I was THERE, man. I WAS THERE. (sniff) It was HORRIBLE!
I think I need therapy now.
Reperations!
So, a Royalist governor's attempt to increase military recruiting for the British in the South, 7 months after Lexington and Concord is what started the war?
Or maybe Virginia was persuaded by this Patrick Henry dude, speaking to the Virginia convention, in March 1775, and not by the fleeing Royalist governor's edicts in November 1775?:
Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
He does mention slavery, I suppose -- as something to be avoided at all costs.
Hannah-Jones draws a parallel between Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation and Dunmore’s proclamation. Lincoln’s also was a war time strategy. Slaveholders in border states were not affected and actual emancipation had to await the adoption of the 13th Amendment after Lincoln’s death. She exaggerates Dunmore’s role but does not actually misrepresent it. The article writer goes too far in his criticisms. Many commenters are clearly historically illiterates guilty of the same distortion they criticize in Hannah-Jones but without any knowledge of history . I recommend that they first educate themselves before putting their ignorance on public display.
Dunmore went on become a supervisor of a slave society in the Bahamas as A Thinking Mind says. None of this is mentioned in the documentary, because it would complete destroy Nikole Hannah-James' narrative.
Her revisionism is bogus, as is your claim.
It’s disgusting to see you, Tony, mtrueman and Daws defend the tripe. You all should repent.
They will never repent. They revel in any kind of dishonesty that Willa svante their evil Marxist agenda.
The lady doth protest too much. He hasn't read the posts of 'many commenters' on this forum and he doesn't care if they're right or not. He's just got to make sure that NHJ and 1619 look good or at least equivalent because, you know, provable historical fact rather than advancing political narratives, need defending.
Most people above the age of 16 would see the defense of NHJ juxtaposed with the betchadidn'tknow! about slavery and the 13A would infer that he's just a nincompoop defending NHJ but, he went ahead and posted it all together like that anyway.
Fuckin' seagull. Lots of noise, dumb as fuck, shits on everything, desperately in need of being shot.
Every movie or show about the Holocaust peddles false history.
It's always false history to the side that doesn't get to write history!
It is not about history, but about indoctrinating people to your narrative.
And it's obvious.
This really can't be stated enough about several different things and even iteratively about things like the 1619 Project.
Even if the 1619 Project were about historical accuracy, and it's not, it only enhances and perpetuates a/the black-race-as-victim narrative... and it's obvious.
Even if the 1619 Project were about historical accuracy, and it's not, and only diminished, reframed, or eliminated the black-race-as-victim narrative, and it doesn't, the reason(s) why NHJ and the NYT would be advancing it would be wholly self-serving... and it's obvious.
I disagree with most of what is imputed in the press to be Hannah-Jones' politics, but her conclusion regarding the Somerset Decision of June 1772 has always seemed eminently justifiable by evidence.
Her greatest error, as claimed in this article was "the assertion that British overtures toward emancipation impelled the American colonists into revolution".
There is absolutely no doubt that the American Revolution was already taking shape and getting violent in June 1772, even tho the vast majority of Americans saw the conflicts as involving only the merchant class and its disputes with UK trade regulators. Nevertheless, the impact of the Somerset Decision was so murky with respect to the colonies that it was a topic of newspaper discussion as a possible accelerant or deterrent to the rising issue of secession versus simple resistance.
The biggest argument against fevered claims was that the Americans -- tho under the Common Law like England and Wales -- were not actually subject to Parliament's or the highest English courts' findings regarding the Common Law under the Constitution of 1689, since each colony had its own courts that enforced the Common Law in concert and conformity with the other colonies, and since they also had a Royal Governor who directly represented the King, In brief, if the UK attempted to extend its definition of the Common Law to the colonies, it would entail a fracturing among the colonies into slave and free and possibly scuttling a unified response to our numerous trade disputes.
The resolution of this opening was complicated. Colonies with legislatively established slavery would not have to enforce the Common Law against ... and so a rush for colonies to clarify their slavery status was triggered directly by Somerset.
Somerset definitely accelerated the evolution of a violent trade dispute into a universal debate over secession, and it was triggered by the topic of slavery.
It's a small move, but I cancelled my HULU subscription on the day the news broke of Hulu's airing of the "series".
Hopefully a lot of other subscribers did as well. If so, Medial outlets might received a signal that American's don't tolerate lies.
Cant blame you one bit for canceling your subscription. Everybody knows that blacks were never enslaved, so why are they lying about it now?