The Labor Market Is Broken
Employment is an ultimatum game, where playing along might get workers less than employers, but refusing to play gets everyone zero.

Inflation is up. The stock market is down. Unemployment is just 3.5 percent. Yet labor force participation remains stubbornly low, with only 62.3 percent of the civilian population working or actively looking for work—well below pre-pandemic levels. And even before the pandemic, that figure had been steadily declining for years.
There are plenty of uncharitable theories about why the American work force is shrinking as a percentage of the population, resulting in 10 million unfilled jobs and a lot of well-wrung hands. The most common is simply that Kids These Days don't want to work and it'll be Gen Z's fault when the U.S. is no longer a global economic superpower.
A substantial number of younger people are not, in fact, keen to get hitched with an employer. In 2022, "for every [25- to 54-year-old] guy who is out of work and looking for a job," American Enterprise Institute economist Nicholas Eberstadt told the Fifth Column podcast, "there are four guys who are neither working nor looking for work."
But the Kids These Days hypothesis is complicated by the fact that while the labor force participation rate includes people 16 and older, the largest component of the most recent reduction appears to be older people who took retirement early and/or previous retirees who have not rejoined the work force at the rates they once did. This trend may well reverse itself if the stock market continues to decline and retirement accounts evaporate, but for now it looks like baby boomers turning on, tuning in, and dropping out—however belatedly—are at least as much of a labor force problem as wayward youths.
What these two groups have in common can be found in an old chestnut of game theory: the ultimatum game. Even if you don't know the 1982 paper that popularized the experiment, you've certainly encountered the phenomenon. Imagine two people, one of whom is given $10 and told to propose a way to split the money with another person—a stranger, let's say. The catch is that if the stranger doesn't agree to the deal, they both get nothing.
Economists and psychologists alike love this experiment because it captures an interesting facet of human behavior that appears irrational at first glance. Surely the second man should accept any deal offered by the first. So what if he's offered just a penny? Free money is free money! Who cares if the other guy gets to keep $9.99? Instead, across all cultures and contexts, people reject offers they perceive to be unfair: The details vary, but human beings turn down money with astonishing consistency if they think they're being done dirty.
This allergy to economic unfairness may well be what unites the "quiet quitters" of Gen Z and the early boomer retirees: They increasingly perceive the terms of employment to be so off-kilter that they would rather not work at all, even if that decision screws them over in the end.
"The process of contracting a worker is often close to ultimatum bargaining," explained Elwyn Davies (then with the University of Oxford) and Stanford University's Marcel Fafchamps in a 2016 paper exploring the effects of competition on behavior within the ultimatum game. "The employer specifies a job description and proposes a wage and the worker accepts or rejects."
So if employment is an ultimatum game—where playing along might get workers less than employers, but refusing to play gets everyone zero—what is causing the perception that the terms of employment are no longer worth accepting, even when both parties would benefit?
Positive views of capitalism more generally have slipped since 2019, with 39 percent expressing negative views in an August Gallup poll. Another Gallup poll found an uptick of 3 percentage points in people who say they are "completely dissatisfied" with their jobs, while the number of people who were "completely satisfied" fell 8 points.
The perception that conventional jobs are essentially offering workers a pittance while greedily holding back the bulk of the wealth is common in places like the r/antiwork subreddit, which has 2.3 million members. In fact, there's at least one discussion of the ultimatum game itself on that subreddit, which pulls some figures on companies' revenue vs. worker compensation and concludes: "If working for Apple was the ultimatum game, the proposer just got $100. They're offering you 23 [cents], and they keep $99.77. Deal or no deal?" The relative sizes of these numbers might also explain why simply raising wages hasn't brought people into the workforce, especially when paired with increased awareness of and dissatisfaction with the gap between CEO pay and worker pay in large corporations.
Early retirement also makes some sense on this accounting. Older people may have expectations about what their compensation or responsibilities should be, with reference to either the generation who retired before them or to their younger colleagues. When they are not offered what they perceive to be their due, they would rather zero out their income than continue to work.
Paul J. Zak, a neuroeconomist who has done experimental work on the role of empathy and perspective-taking in the ultimatum game, cautions against an approach that is "too econo-centric." Large and unpredictable government subsidies to individuals and corporations erode the broader sense that hard work will be rewarded and is worth pursuing, even if the wages offered previously seemed fair. There is almost certainly more at play than wage and price levels alone.
The pandemic threw a wrench into this and every sociological and economic question and will continue to annoy academics looking for patterns for at least another century. Many jobs did get appreciably worse during the height of COVID, when death suddenly became a possible side effect of working in the grocery store, a factor that shouldn't be underestimated. But decreases in labor force participation predate the pandemic.
In many ways, work is better than it has ever been. It is less dangerous, requires fewer hours, is less physically taxing, and affords the purchase of better stuff than for most of human history. But the supply chain interruptions of recent years paired with rapid changes in the terms of employment during the pandemic may well have disrupted the sense that the deal workers were being offered was fair.
The temptation of the ultimatum game is to dismiss the results as irrational and therefore bad. It's easy to dismiss workers as lazy or employers as short-sightedly selfish. But the consistency with which individuals in nearly all situations perform in the ultimatum game actually highlights something good about people: They care about what is fair and they will devote significant effort to making deals where everyone wins. The authors of that 2016 paper found, for instance, that in an environment with multiple employers and multiple employees, the offers tended to start higher and employees tended to do better overall. Competition causes employers to think harder about what workers want and to offer it as seamlessly as possible.
Right now there's something broken in our economy that is preventing employers and employees from cooperating with each other. The result is that too few deals are being struck and everyone is suffering. The challenge ahead is how to rebuild a sense that the game is fair and everyone is playing in good faith.
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The "ultimatum game" theory of why people with limited capital are refusing to work would require some idea of why the perception that working is an unfair deal. It seems to boil down to an acceptance of large portion of the younger public of a variation on the labor theory of value and the perception that a worker is entitled to a larger share of the gross profit pie than is realistic and even possible.
A large proportion of young people have been marinated intellectually in bad economic theories.
Strange isn't it, as the government increases the number of people it pays not to work the number of people who think working is a good option goes down. Employers hire unskilled, uneducated illegals to do the work the government pays unskilled, uneducated Americans not to do. We've made poverty a viable career option that actually pays pretty good.
I'm not sure what the percentage is nationally, but in my area, I would venture to guess between 20-25% that are permanent drains on the system. When there is really no consequence to being worthless other than having less money, a huge swath of people will be completely worthless. They still get free housing, free healthcare, free food, and free phones. A large chunk of the adults on it are fradulently disabled, but I bet those numbers are larger in areas where the doctors don't personally know the people they are diagnosing.
"a huge swath of people will be completely worthless."
Thank god for abortionists and the wonderful work they do.
True, you should go see one, you 9/11 Truther Holocaust denying Nazi fuck.
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"a worker is entitled to a larger share of the gross profit pie than is realistic and even possible."
What is the correct and realistic split between the worker and non-worker?
What is the correct and realistic split between the worker and non-worker?
The sum between the two needs to be 100% or less.
That sounds very correct and realistic but it doesn't answer the question. How much of the worker's product is the non-worker entitled to?
"Entitled to" shows your proggie bias.
Employment is a contract involving negotiation. There is not single "right" answer which applies universally to everyone.
“Entitled to” shows your proggie bias."
I'm quoting Mickey Rat. If the word 'entitled' triggers you, take it up with him:
"that a worker is entitled to a larger share of the gross profit pie than is realistic and even possible."
My question, which remains unanswered, is what is a realistic share a worker can expect? What is too large?
Are you not responsible for copying that word? Are you so devoid of agency that someone else forced your fingers to type that word?
More typical proggies behavior, always a victim of some nefarious skullduggery.
You copied the word 'entitled' too. Do you deny it?
And still my question remains unanswered.
Geeeeeez, that's a stretch even for you. Next you'll be accusing Webster.
"Geeeeeez, that’s a stretch even for you. "
Give me a raise and I promise you higher quality commenting.
Because it’s a stupid question meant to start an argument. There is obviously no universal answer to your question that you continue to doggedly pose. Stop being intentionally obtuse.
That is a stupid question only if the original statement by Mickey Rat is equally stupid. It is a reasonable question to ask if we are to take Mickey Rat's statement seriously. Quoting again for reference,
...the perception that a worker is entitled to a larger share of the gross profit pie than is realistic and even possible.
So what share of the gross profit pie is realistic or even possible for a worker to expect?
Actually, thinking about that statement more, it is based on incorrect understanding. "Gross profit" would be the difference between revenue and expenses by the business, but labor costs are part of the expenses. Workers are not entitled to any share of the profits. Rather, the question is what share of the company's revenue are workers entitled to as realistic or even possible.
what is a realistic share a worker can expect
The worker should expect the share he/she has asked for. Simple as that. An employer assumes the risk, invests in the business and decides he/she can afford to pay $X to maintain profitablity in the business. If the worker can negotiate that as a percentage of gross sales or an hourly amount, that is up to them. In some cases, Sales for instance, the worker can negotiate a base amount and then a percentage of the dollars they bring into the company. The more they bring in, the higher the dollars that go to them too.
The key is, and has always been, to know one's value. From there one can become entitled to whatever they feel they deserve. If they are not finding takers, they may choose to branch out on their own and provide a value to others and be compensated. Or they may find they have overvalued themselves and by reducing their request, find the value they deserve.
There is not a cut and dried answer such as X% of all profits because businesses also operate at different profit margins.
"The worker should expect the share he/she has asked for. "
Mickey Rat seems to identify the problem as the younger worker asking for more, a larger share, and this is somehow related to bad economic theories. It's the grumpy old man school of economics.
I think it is closer to this sentiment said in a different way. You call it the grumpy old man theory, I would call it the paying your dues theory. Some of the up and coming workers value themselves a little more than they are actually worth to the business. When those forces don't meet the market shows it.
Or they may find they have overvalued themselves and by reducing their request, find the value they deserve.
Your question is in fact BIASED on its face. Even the Bible talked of a worker is WORTH his wage. NOT ENTITLED to it at all. The wage in this example in fact WAS negotiated and was paid.
This entire experiment (ultimate) is not even rational. First $10 or even $1000 is not enough to see what REALLY would happen. It would also depend upon HOW the holder approaches the exchange!
Me I would write a contract up front that would GIVE the other person $XX for coming with me for 5 minutes to handle some business. I would then cash the check and give him the money. All agreed no problem.
The problem is that workers have ZERO, NADA, NO skin in the game. The Owners have ALL the SKIN IN THE GAME.
Those who invest and work with anything that takes a LOST of money understand that the GUY bringing the MONEY EARNS THE MOST FOR DOING LEAST. This is true in ANY business venture.
Employees don't think about the 15K per month rent, the nearly 30% employment taxes and overhead for having employees, they don't think about the additional 15% for medical benefits and 5% for retirement benefits. They think their wage is all there is. When things get slow the workers (just like Musk's employees) think that the boss MUST and SHOULD continue to pay their wage out of his own pocket. Not happening.
Your attitude seems strangely like Musk's employees' attitude.
How much of the worker’s product is the non-worker entitled to?
The line you were responding to was:
“a worker is entitled to a larger share of the gross profit pie than is realistic and even possible.”
Nothing about "entitlement." The comment was about reality, specifically the reality that no more than 100% of revenue can be distributed, quite apart from any notions of entitlement or justice.
I don't understand your meaning. Any share of the pie is going to be less than the total amount of the pie.
The word 'share' means a part or portion.
If this is what you meant to say, my apologies. I assumed that Mickey Rat, rather than belaboring the obvious, was trying to say that, for example, a 50% share was realistic and possible, while a 55% share was unrealistic and impossible.
I assumed that Mickey Rat, rather than belaboring the obvious, was trying to say that, for example, a 50% share was realistic and possible, while a 55% share was unrealistic and impossible.
No. He was clearly pointing out that if you have 20 employees, they can't all get 50%. Yet this is what they tend to demand.
"He was clearly pointing out that if you have 20 employees, they can’t all get 50%. Yet this is what they tend to demand."
I wouldn't hire more than 2 employees in that case.
I wouldn’t hire more than 2 employees in that case.
That's the scenario where everyone gets 0.
So his two employees quit because they feel over worked.
The correct answer is 0.
"The sum between the two needs to be 100% or less."
Not if the employer is the Federal government. And just what portion of the total work force is employed by the Federal government?
Never mind the people who have scammed themselves into a draw check, just how much do those people with Federal job titles and corresponding paychecks distort the actual market for actual labor?
"What is the correct and realistic split between the worker and non-worker?"
Whatever the two parties voluntarily agree to. WTF?
Isn't that the Tax man's cut?
It also invites investigations into how many people (and I will suggest mostly on the left) consider "pay". Is this an arbitrary number, to be determined solely by political struggle (and perhaps more akin to the windfall in the ultimatum game)? Or something more like an exchange of value?
“when death suddenly became a possible side effect of working in the grocery store, a factor that shouldn't be underestimated.”
Cite?
The source is the same asshole that most of these articles pull their numbers.
Before Covid, I'm sure nobody ever robbed or shot up a grocery store...
Remember, fear of death (and fear of fear of death) is the same thing as death.
I specifically recall the giant grocery workers union putting out statistics regarding the safety of their workers during the pandemic.
Spoiler alert: People healthy enough to work were generally unaffected by covid.
I wonder how much the lack of loyalty by would-be employees has to do with the lack of loyalty by employers. When workers see the companies as willing to do anything to make a buck, they realize that they're entirely disposable commodities by employers. If your job is always in danger of being outsourced to China or to illegal immigrants, you're going to want higher pay to take a job.
Lack of loyalty is a different issue from lack of working though.
Shit, 2020 changed everything.
Here in Georgia hourly workers left in droves. "Shit bro, I ain't working. The gubmit payin' my ass".
I don't like to name names, but Fatass Donnie rolled out his PPP, his extended double-dip UE checks, his stimmy checks - old Fatass created a new government dependent welfare class.
And "libertarians" here support Fatass still to this day?
Unfuckingbelievable.
Like blubbering dumbass Herschel is Donnie's hand-picked replacement? No thanks.
The only signs I see more than "For Lease" are "Help Wanted."
Construction near me is strong – wide open. Of course I am only a few miles from the new Rivian plant where they will build their new EV truck and hire 3000 workers.
Every store has Help Wanted signs out. The local Piggly-Wiggly has a sign seeking multiple cashiers, stock, deli, bagger, and CS positions. Dogdick, GA is a future metropolis. Can’t stock enough spittin’ tobacky.
edit - But I don't like to name names. I noticed several of the Peanuts become somewhat disgruntled when you mention a certain former president.
Around here the drive-thru pharmacy windows are all closed, as are the dining rooms in all the fast food restaurants. And they all have help wanted signs. How are people paying their bills?
The executive branch acted purely on its own for those policies? The Congress was not involved at all?
Congress is culpable too.
But the president sets the agenda. And Mitch McConnell could have denied cloture. The GOP was all in with Democrats.
edit - And would 2020 have been any better with Biden as POTUS?
Not at all.
That is the whole point. They are BOTH Big Government parties.
Noooo, no, no, no. Congress holds the purse strings when your party has the White House. Soon as the other party gets into the White House the president controls spending. Don't you know anything?
First I’m hearing this.
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
And then who, like always, kept it going and expanded on it.
It's like the DNC doesn't have any ideas of its own - they take the action the GOP took and then just do that.
Where's the incentive to get a second job when you only get to keep sixty cents of every dollar?
Unless your 2nd job is well into 6 figures in California or NY... where are you being taxed 40%?
I just know that I recently got a raise and only 60% made it onto my paycheck.
Edit: Maybe I'm exaggerating by 5%. Still...
Sales Tax, Income Tax, Sin Tax, Fuel Tax, Corporate Tax, Gift Tax, SS Tax, Medicare Tax (and hundreds of other 'named' taxes).
It wasn't that long ago Reason ran an article showing the government TAKES more wealth that people get from working ( over 50% average ).
If I got a second job, and didn’t specify on the W4 that I want them to take out extra, they’d take out taxes as if that was my only income. Then at the end of the year that money will be taxed as if I got a raise. Surprise!
Most everywhere - depending on how you count it.
First, is the "dollar" you start from the same dollar in the gross pay line of your paycheck? If you're trying to compare that dollar to the dollar of revenue the company gets (which the article above certainly implies), that's not a fair comparison. Employer-paid taxes and regulatory overhead put about a 35% overhead on your cost of employment that you never see.
Then the government starts taking the taxes that you do see - and depending on your salary and withholding choices, that starts to add up, too. If you add federal, state and local, there are lots of jurisdictions where you'll hit 40% well below a six figure income. Then there are sales taxes, property taxes, fees and licenses, and on and on...
When I first moved to northeast Ohio, I started adding up all the taxes I was paying. I stopped when I got past 50% because I realized I couldn't handle the answer.
It gets really disturbing when you add in all the regressive taxes on inelastic goods like heat, electricity, food, gasoline, clothing, tobacco, alcohol, snacks (they have a snack tax here in ME that applies to Snickers but not Twix. Why? Twix contains wheat flour and Snickers does not), internet, cell phone use, excise tax, use tax (sales tax on goods purchased out of state), and that's just off the top of my head.
"Twix contains wheat flour and Snickers does not)"
Is Twix a vegetable or a fruit? It required a decision by the supreme court in the 19th century to answer the question for tomatoes. In order to avoid a tariff on imported vegetables, an importer argued that tomatoes were fruits. He lost.
Botanically, tomatoes are 'fruits of the vine' but so are peas, squash, beans and practically everything else, except cabbage, carrots and potatoes, etc.
Is Twix a vegetable or a fruit?
It's made with a cookie. Hence the flour. You need to get out more or quit watching the commercials on CCPTV exclusively.
"It’s made with a cookie. Hence the flour."
Twix is neither a fruit nor a vegetable, but a flower?
Taxes take out just under 20% for me (IRS + payroll), living in Florida and earning a gross salary of ~$50k a year.
Regardless, whether it is 60% or 80% of an extra $100, that is still more money than nothing. So, the issue still comes down to a question of perceived fairness, just like the ultimatum game itself. People that don't value what government does for them would think that a 10% tax rate is too much, while people that like what the government is doing might think that a 40% tax rate is worth it.
Right now there's something broken in our economy - i.e. open borders and unlimited welfare and unlimited spending.
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Tell Ron DeSanctimonious (Trump's new name for him) to fly the illegals actually in Florida to Martha's Vineyard rather than having to find ones that aren't actually illegals in Texas, and maybe the 'open borders' problem can be dealt with. Of course, actually doing something about all the illegals here might be a problem for the Florida agriculture, construction, landscaping, and hospitality industries that employ a million or more of them.
Pablo EscoBEAR! Wildest trailer of the year tells (partially) true story of a bear that ate 70 POUNDS of cocaine dropped from a plane by smugglers - before terrorizing town in a drug-fueled rampage
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11487553/Cocaine-Bear-trailer-tells-true-story-predator-ate-70-POUNDS-drug-dropped-smugglers.html
What the...
Was the cocaine in the trunk of a car?
This story actually comes pretty close to the 'bears in the truck' example. We need the individualist to weigh in on the culpability of the smugglers in relation to the NAP now.
RIP Ray Liotta....at least he left us with one final gift.
There is another factor, which Reason will never consider.
Who wants to work in a woke hellhole of woke censorship?
Employment is not an ultimatum game but a trade of goods/services, thinking of it as an ultimatum game is an error. Why employers undervalue employees and employees overvalue their worth/risks/alternatives can lead to discussions of real reasons beyond your pathetic emoting of "fairness".
Sorry, I did not see your post until after I posted a similar point. Nevertheless, I believe the "ultimatum" game still partially applies to a "trade" situation, where you feel they don't offer enough compensation for your time and level of expertise to make employment "fair." On the other hand, if you cannot find a better employment somewhere else, you might still take lesser compensation while you keep looking.
Exactly this.
It cannot be all or nothing, as employer and employee are able to seek others to try and make a deal with.
Of course, this is Koch reasoning. If the market power is in the hands of job seekers, just import desperate workers from the third world who will take far less until the value of employees returns to rock bottom. Never miss a chance to frame it so that you have an excuse to put your thumb on the scale.
They're ignoring the massive opportunity cost that exists in accepting a labor contract vs the ultimatum game.
In the experiment, there is no opportunity cost for the second person to accepting the deal. They literally deny themselves $1 or $0.01 or whatever in order to prevent unfairness.
In real life, you're not rejecting job offers because it's unfair--you're also comparing it to what else you could do with your time. A better paying job, a job you'd enjoy more, or sitting on the couch collecting gov benefits.
They're ignoring that though, because employer bad.
"whatever in order to prevent unfairness."
They save face. There's a cost to not appearing to be taken for a sucker. No such thing as a free lunch as the Libertarians say.
Depends on how the experiment is set up. It kind of loses its value as an experiment if opportunity cost is introduced, unless they're just trying to prove that people value certain social interactions at certain dollar amounts.
I suppose it could be defined as an opportunity cost for the truly pedantic.
In most such experiments in the social sciences, you will often find the truly pedantic behind them. Occupational hazard.
Also the overhead cost of hiring on with one employer and passing up a possibly better job the opens up the next day. Also the overhead of hiring a new employee is huge and regulations limit employers in firing (less so in "at will" states)
Wow, no, negotiating a job and compensation is not an ultimatum game. Not at all.
To start with, it's not a one-time interaction. Employers and jobseekers iterate through multiples of each other.
Then, on the job, employers and employees go through multiple transactions over time.
Looks at the byline and consider the source.
Reason's overlords pretend to pay them and they pretend to write coherent works of substance.
Works of liberty went out the window with the current batch of overlords.
"They increasingly perceive the terms of employment to be so off-kilter that they would rather not work at all, even if that decision screws them over in the end."
Or - they're getting welfare, food stamps, and rent paid and so have plenty of time for a life that revolves around getting high and playing videogames. Or watching TV in the case of teh boomers.
Know a guy who works the weekday morning shift in the restaurant of a local hotel. He's out after brunch service and has every weekend off. Which he spends golfing. On less than $300 per week gross.
No he does not get any guv bennies, he's getting by sponging off his girlfriend, who apparently tolerates his loser ass because he's home every night.
Of course one day this will all come crashing down for the both of them, as they are living day to day with no savings and no future.
When that day comes we will get to pay for both of them. And they know it.
Look on the bright side: at least we’re not hearing much about UBI lately.
Unless you’re a tranny in Cali.
I heard something about UBI being introduced here in Santa Clara County, CA. Don’t know any details through.
"They care about what is fair and they will devote significant effort to making deals where everyone wins. "
But that is not what the ultimatum game shows.
If you get 100 bucks and offer me a penny, how is that unfair? Free money is still free money. I'm not going to refuse this offer because it's 'unfair' but because I have *power* and can use that to gouge you for a larger percentage.
It shows people using manipulation and leverage over each other.
" I’m not going to refuse this offer because it’s ‘unfair’ but because I have *power* and can use that to gouge you for a larger percentage."
That's not how the game is played. The player being offered the money has the option to say yes or no. The game then concludes. There is no gouging in hopes of a better offer.
That is exactly how the game is played.
You've never seen the versions where they use iteration?
I've seen the versions referred to in the article. And a game where refusing the offer leads only to the next iteration is quite another thing from where refusal leads to both parties getting nothing.
Your game of iterations could be interesting though. Let's say limited to 2 iterations. First offer, a 50/50 split. It's refused. On the next and final iteration does the offerer offer more or less? Both possibilities are plausible.
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
“Spouting nonsense is an end in itself.”
There’s even gouging in the single iteration version of the game. Think hard, you may understand how. Hint: humans aren’t memoryless. Therefore…?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Assuming you have a point, please state it with more clarity.
Was listening to the podcast Words and Numbers, and according to them the households in the bottom quintile, after taking advantage of government handouts, live a $45K/year lifestyle. That blew my mind. No wonder there are so many help wanted signs.
Apparently if you're in the bottom 3 quintiles, you basically make the same amount.
Basically, yeah. Quintile 4 pays some, and quintile 5 pays out the nose.
When people talk about income inequality, taxes and government programs are not taken into account. When they are the gap shrinks tremendously.
What this also means is that if Uncle Sam is going to squeeze any more taxes out of the population, quintiles 3 and 4 must in the crosshairs.
Is that a $45k/year household income including government welfare benefits? Compare that to the U.S. median of $75k/year (with no welfare included, though presumably that would include things like Social Security and disability, military pensions, and the like). That sounds like enough to keep a household above poverty, not an excuse to be lazy. (current federal poverty line is $26k for a household of 4)
The ultimatum game requires two participants who are joined in outcome but one has decisionmaking power over the split. The demand for fairness comes from the power to deny the decision maker anything with your refusal.
Employment has many participants on both sides and, without outside manipulation, both sides are auctioning off their benefits for the best deal they can make. If you refuse you deny the employer little because someone else can fill in if there are acceptable terms and conditions.
People like KMW demand we pay off all necessities for everyone then act shocked when people start refusing dirty but necessary jobs that keep society going and instead accept the compassionate necessities package only.
" If you refuse you deny the employer little because someone else can fill in if there are acceptable terms and conditions."
The article is suggesting that this 'someone else' no longer exists. Almost 10 million non-existent someone elses.
You should reread the comment. The someone else doesn't exist because the government is paying them enough to not work.
"paying them enough to not work."
They are not participating in the employment racket, I'm sure you mean. They continue to work. Clicking on a link is work and the data miners at Google couldn't function without it.
I'm reminded of the promises of science fiction of the 40s and 50s which predicted that automation and computers would 'save labor' and we'd see a future of more leisure, less work. Now it seems to be coming to pass and all we can do is wring our hands over it.
I'm reminded that trueman is stupid, smug and proud of it:
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
"Spouting nonsense is an end in itself."
I'm dumber for pulling you off mute and reading that. Clicking a link is not work, you give away information as to your wants but you provide nothing of value in itself.
"Clicking a link is not work, you give away information as to your wants but you provide nothing of value in itself."
It is work. According to the dictionary, work is "Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something." And data mining relies on it. Mining requires workers to dig ore from the earth. Data mining requires workers to click on links and provide data to outfits like Google.
In themselves these clicks seem to be nothing of value. In aggregate though, they form the basis of some of the most successful businesses of the past few decades.
You bet you're dumber after reading trueman's bullshit:
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
"Spouting nonsense is an end in itself."
Also, the people who took early retirement did not choose to “zero out their income” if they are receiving Social Security income, Medicare benefits and drawing down their IRA savings in retirement. Plus, if their actual “income” becomes zero they can almost always re-enter the workforce again.
You can't collect social security until 62 and medicare until 65, so if you are getting those you haven't retired early, you just retired regular. You can't take money out of most retirement plans until 59.5, this is absolutely the case with an IRA, unless you want to pay penalty tax.
"You can’t take money out of most retirement plans until 59.5, this is absolutely the case with an IRA, unless you want to pay penalty tax."
Well sorta, and don't think there will not be more of this.
COVID Relief: Penalty-Free 401(k) & IRA Withdrawals
https://smartasset.com/financial-advisor/covid-401k-ira-withdrawals
"Instead, across all cultures and contexts, people reject offers they perceive to be unfair: The details vary, but human beings turn down money with astonishing consistency if they think they're being done dirty."
What is funny is that Bailey allowed himself to be done dirty by studies that insist that this is actually about privileged people being assholes to the poor because racism or whatever.
https://reason.com/2022/05/20/privileged-people-oppose-even-win-win-pro-equality-policies-says-new-study/?comments=true#comments
Yea, I remember that one well.
How about we pay everyone in forms equivalent to piece work or commission? Make people think a bit like autonomous entrepreneurs.
Easier still; outlaw employment.
Everyone has to be an independent contractor.
"...Yet labor force participation remains stubbornly low, with only 62.3 percent of the civilian population working or actively looking for work—well below pre-pandemic levels..."
Should have been rioting in the streets, Feb 2020, with Newsom et al strung up on the street light poles.
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Maybe I missed it in the mass of hypotheticals above, but the “ultimatum” scenario does not seem to be applicable when you would be working for 1 cent instead of $10 per hour. It's an exchange, not a game where you lose if you don't agree.
The most common is simply that Kids These Days don't want to work and it'll be Gen Z's fault when the U.S. is no longer a global economic superpower.
It ain't Gen Z's fault. They literally have no political or economic clout. It's the Boomers' fault, and Gen Z will merely be the inheritors of a much-diminished nation in which they'll have unprecedented market choices as long as those choices are vetted by some other mercantilist nation that calls the shots.
How is it the Boomer's fault?
They invented the "Baby on board" sign, which Is Known to have signaled the downfall of civilization, the rise of helicopter parenting and the culmination of the Long March on the Institutions.
I thought it was the Cabbage Patch Dolls in the 80s. It was mostly only middle aged women that bought and collected them.
They invented the “Baby on board” sign, which Is Known to have signaled the downfall of civilization,
Ha. Yes. I can see how that started it all. My baby is your responsibility to protect. No wonder they don the mask so easily now.
Helicopter parenting started with Gen X. I was at the end of the boomer Gen and we did not helicopter. We used no. Made our kids cry and took shit away when they misbehaved. We or I anyway, didn't put a TV in every room and made them eat with us each night whether they liked it or not.
We did come up with 'Time-out' which was mistake. The parents I see today are far more smothering at every stage of the kid's life. Every time i hear one say 'That's an inappropriate response' or 'use your inside voice' the first thing that comes to mind is You don't bargain with terrorists. 🙂
I was in college when those came out. I had one that said “Baby In Trunk.”
Also, don’t forget those suction cup Garfield dolls. I’d look for both of those in the freeway so as NOT to be stuck behind those drivers.
The Boomers are epitomized as the 'Me Generation' - and they have certainly lived up to that. As a collective group, the Boomers have done more to destroy our Judeo-Christian values than any previous generation; I cannot think of a more selfish generation.
It was always about them, and they screwed the rest of us.
What these two groups have in common can be found in an old chestnut of game theory: the ultimatum game. Even if you don't know the 1982 paper that popularized the experiment, you've certainly encountered the phenomenon. Imagine two people, one of whom is given $10 and told to propose a way to split the money with another person—a stranger, let's say. The catch is that if the stranger doesn't agree to the deal, they both get nothing.
I'm not sure if this experiment says what they've always said it says...
What this experiment has always said to me is, "Hey there, stranger I've never met, that guy over there gave me $10, and I have to split it with a dear stranger, that being you. If you don't agree to my deal (and you have one shot, and one shot only to agree with it) then we both get nothing"
Me: *shrugs* Ok.
Them: I'll give you 1 cent.
Me: *thinks about huge jar of change I haven't spent in fifteen years, then thinks about how funny it is for the stranger who just got $10 to lose it all* No deal. LOL!
It's not a question of fairness.
Both parties need to recognize that the other has the ability to squash the entire deal thus costing both everything. That means each player has equal equity and that needs to be respected. Failure to respect that all but guarantees everyone loses.
If I'm the one deciding what to offer then what I really need to decide is how little I'm willing to settle for. That approach maximizes the chance that I'll walk away with something.
Both parties need to recognize that the other has the ability to squash the entire deal thus costing both everything
As the dear stranger, it didn't cost me anything.
Economics has a term opportunity costs; and the cost to you is the opportunity to make somewhere between zero and ten dollars.
So you interview for a job and you get an offer. So to see if it's a fair offer do you compare the offer to what others are being paid in the field or do you look up the latest earning statement of the company and then demand more money if the company is doing well?
I am a hiring manager, if I had somebody try to negotiate a starting salary based on how much the company was making I would pull the offer.
"Here is the job, here is the salary range, here is where you will start based on your experience. Talk it through with your spouse and let me know by XX."
Pretty friggin' simple.
"Pretty friggin’ simple."
It's not so simple. You're assuming that you aren't competing with 10 million other hiring managers for this prospective employee's agreement.
He is assuming nothing of the kind. He has already factored this into the offer. I believe that’s covered in the “here is the salary range” portion of the process.
You really seem to like being a contrarian douchebag.
"He has already factored this into the offer. "
Factoring the competition of 10 million hiring managers into an offer is not simple. Factoring lies at the heart of RSA encryption. Not simple at all.
Two private products/services are flat fee, unlimited use. Cable TV, internet. Charge per gig or pay per view. It’s not gonna happen but the gen zers come out of the basement in droves and boomers get bored and go back to work.
While reading the story, and many of the comments, I hypothesize that much of the disconnect and dissatisfaction comes from the growth of corporatism and oligarchies we've seen since the 1970s as the country has deindustrialized. Yes, we tend to think of the big corporations of the first half of the century, but Ford and GM contracted a lot of their product inputs from smaller manufacturers. Boeing and others did the same thing (Kaiser aluminum in Spokane was a big supplier to Boeing). Now many of these suppliers are either overseas and or major corporations themselves.
When you're part of a corporation, or any large organization, you tend to feel like a faceless cog, undervalued, especially if you're an office worker. Several studies demonstrate white collar office workers are less happy than blue collar workers. And this isn't a new idea. It was the underlying message for the classic movie Office Space.
Another, side effect of this is that corporation tend to be more dispersed, and the department or subsidiary you work for far removed from corporate headquarters. Industrial corporations might not have been perfect, and the factory towns weren't perfect, but there was a shared sense of identity in those communities. You may not have worked directly for the local factory, mill or mine, but your life was still tied to those entities. Your neighbors, customers etc did work there.
I've seen this firsthand. My family was mining and timber. I've seen towns and communities struggle when the mines and mills have shut down. And yes the struggle is financial but even more it's the lost identity. I was taking care one time of a patient from the town my parents grew up in. When we left, the town identity was fully tied to the mines. Rather it was Bunker Hill, Lucky Friday, Sunshine etc, it was the mines, plural that defined the area. These people, less than fifteen years removed (so, less than a generation removed) from the time Bunker shut down, were surprised that my family actually had been involved with that industry. Surprised more like I was a specimen in a zoo or museum.
Some of the mines have reopened, but they no longer dominate the economy. Tourism (large ski resort) and Walmart are now the new employers in the area. Many of my parents generation moved, and the people who replaced them are largely from out of state. To them the mines and timber companies are archaic oddities, that at best tolerated, at worst evil legacies that rape the environment. They don't understand what it was like in it's hay day. I was speaking to the volunteer at the Wallace visitor station about my family history in the region a couple years ago (and yes it's been almost 40 years now since Bunker shut down) and had to explain to here what a gypo miner was (my maternal Grandpa was a gypo) and the difference between those who worked underground and those who worked above ground processing ore. She was older than me, and I wrongly assumed she was a long time resident. She wasn't. Back in the 1980s and 1970s, even the lady working at JC Penneys or the local diner, could have told you all that. Even if their spouses didn't work for the mines. There just was a sense of community identity, that is lacking in much of America, especially urban and sub-urban America. It's still a feature of rural America but is even starting to ebb here to.
My conclusion is that the underlying theme is that it's not so much capitalism people are rejecting but corporatism and consumerism. It's the loss of community that's been the result of deindustrialization. The problem is that people believe the government can change this, without realizing it's largely the government's fault in the first place. It's regulations and laws that creates an environment that favors large corporations, because they're better situated to deal with a complex regulatory world. Today, we don't have capitalism, we have corporatism and crony capitalism, and people have a healthy suspicion and dislike of these systems. They rightly feel it's unfair. To young people, they've grown up in this environment. To them this is the problem and the answer is for a fair system imposed by the government without realizing the very unfairness is that prior generations (baby boomers and their parents) reliance on government interference is exactly what created this problem in the first place. Gen X, we were raised with a healthy sense of cynicism because we saw this process unfold. We remember a time when there was a sense of community identity (even in urban and sub-urban areas). And maybe Mr Brown was a crackpot hippie but he also was your neighbor and worked with your father etc.
Even communication today has removed that sense of community. Social media does not make one feel a sense of community except by defining you as "not them". It's removed that sense of community not identified strictly by belief but by common industry, or local identity, especially in urban, suburban and exurban communities. We've retreated into ideological groupthink communities in search of the sense of group identity we crave as social beings. And this actually makes us feel even more alienated in the end.
I think you and I might have discussed this before. I was a Silver Valley resident from 2001 to 2008. Saw much of that identity transition firsthand.
Kellogg is now either a bedroom community for Coeur d'Alene, a tourist and vacation town for the wealthy, or retirees. Everyone else services these groups but these groups don't actually belong to the community. They're outside the community while living in it.
"My conclusion is that the underlying theme is that it’s not so much capitalism people are rejecting but corporatism and consumerism."
The word you're looking for is 'populism,' which has always been anti-corporate in nature. Populism is the motivating force behind opposition to covid policies, occupy wall street, or the tea party and Trump.
And I'd argue that any rejection of consumerism is also a rejection of capitalism, as both involve an ever increasing accumulation of wealth.
And I’d argue that any rejection of consumerism is also a rejection of capitalism, as both involve an ever increasing accumulation of wealth.
I was with you until this...
I don't think that's quite right. I do believe that there is a strong correlation between anti-consumerists and anti-capitalists, but you can be a capitalist and be skeptical (anti?) of consumerism at the same time.
I admit that "capitalism" can be a bit of a loaded word, which is why 'free markets' sometimes is a better descriptor.
Yes, free market is a better word than capitalism, largely because capitalism has been denigrated by collectivists ideologies.
"but you can be a capitalist and be skeptical (anti?) of consumerism at the same time."
I suppose that's true. Maybe the famously frugal Warren Buffet is a good example. But personal tastes aside, it seems like on the level of society as a whole, consumerism and capitalism go hand in hand. Look at Bernie Sanders' observation that nobody needs 23 choices of deodorant. It's as much anti-consumerist as it is anti-capitalist.
No, consumerism is an ideal that economy is consumer driven and caters to consumer, but is separate from production. Globalism is a type of consumerism. Western Europe, America and Canada are consumerist also. The economy is primarily focused on selling you stuff, as opposed to producing things. It produces a lot of wealth but tends to striate that wealth to a smaller sector of society. Sanders thing about 23 deodorants is not a rejection of consumerism as much as it's a collectivists ideal, that variety is bad.
"The economy is primarily focused on selling you stuff"
Your definition of consumerism isn't one I'm familiar with, or appears in any dictionary.
The stuff that is sold presumably is produced somewhere, somehow, some time.
"Sanders thing about 23 deodorants is not a rejection of consumerism as much as it’s a collectivists ideal, that variety is bad."
It's not that variety is bad. Satiation is the first step on the road to anti-consumerism. It's that after reaching a point of diminishing returns, more types of deodorant available on the market don't make us wealthier or more free. They are not needed. If anything they just serve to confuse the buyer and make the decision which deodorant to buy more complicated and time consuming.
Anti-consumerism probably owes a lot to the Eastern philosophy of anti-materialism and how possessions are chains that tie us down.
From your posts it's apparent your unfamiliar with a lot of concepts and even the ones you are apparent with you have only a superficial understanding of them. Of course products are made somewhere, the problem is it's not here anymore. A consumer driven economy is one that is solely focused on selling the product, not on production. Above, you say that data mining is productive, but it isn't. It's still selling something. The western developed world no longer produces, it imports cheap, throwaway products to sell. The main exports of these countries is currency and intellectual. The latter isn't something that can support a society and the former isn't sustainable and doesn't contribute to a sense of self worth.
The reason the west doesn't produce is because the regulatory costs in the west are prohibitive. It's not wages, because the remaining manufacturing is corporate owned mostly. It's the small and medium manufacturing that has disappeared. And mainly because regulatory costs and complexity hurt the small and medium companies the most, especially those that are supposedly supposed to help the small guy. Yes, wages are less in developing countries but training costs and skills costs are much higher than are required for workers in the west. Regulations create regulatory capture, which disproportionately drives small and medium businesses to shut down. Then the largest corporations can turn around and move manufacturing, that once was done by smaller contractors, to overseas factories, where either the regulatory costs are cheaper, or grift and corruption makes avoiding regulations cheaper.
For forty years, we've been told that it's a good thing that we're post industrialized economies in the west. That we're better off because consumer driven economics are wealthier, and we're now idea driven economies. But this has created a world were the winners are few, but win big, while the losers are numerous, and the middle class is mostly bench warmers. The ultimate end is California, which has the widest wealth disparity, whose main export are intellectual goods (hell Silicon Valley doesn't even manufacture chips or PC which put it on the map in the first place). Yes, California is top in many agricultural goods, but the trend is decreasing production while their competitors are increasing. Take Dairy for instance. California is decreasing and has been every year for over a decade. Every other state in the top four have been increasing in both milk cows and milk production, California is decreasing. Washington used to be in the top five. It's barely in the top ten and likely to drop out to be replaced by Nevada. The point is these, like other progressive, collectivists states has focused on intellectual goods and selling consumer goods over producing products.
"From your posts it’s apparent your unfamiliar with a lot of concepts"
You're too generous. I'm unfamiliar with most concepts.
"A consumer driven economy is one that is solely focused on selling the product, not on production. "
Horse and buggy thinking. Today computers and automation are in the forefront. Producing software is a matter of copying an pasting. At essentially zero cost. Music, movies, trademarks and books can all be similarly produced. Provided you have a computer. Assembled increasingly by a robot work force.
"The western developed world no longer produces,"
Rap music, which indisputably in the US, has spread across the entire globe. Ever wonder where those expensive cars and jewelry come from? Rap's influence can be heard in the popular music of pretty much every country. Iran might be an exception, I grant you that. I've heard Palestinian rap though. Sounds just like Hebrew rap.
"The reason the west doesn’t produce is because the regulatory costs in the west are prohibitive.,,, "
Oh no!, here comes an avalanche of neo liberal talking points. Help!
"The ultimate end is California,"
I read about the almond industry in California. What a horror show! The way they go to extreme lengths to make the area inhospitable to bees, denuding the area around the trees of any vegetation, let alone flowering plants, and have to truck bees around from plantation to plantation, spreading diseases and disrupting natural cycles by forcing them to die or adapt to the unforgiving clock of capitalism.
You're dealing with this:
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
"Spouting nonsense is an end in itself."
Help yourself, but that's a fools errand.
No, the rejection of consumerism I see is more about how a consumer driven economy, devoid of a production based economy, creates an impersonating experience. Even most those who espouse socialism or anti-capitalism aren't necessarily opposed to wealth accumulation when pressed on the issue. They want to be wealthy, but believe the system is unfair to those in the lower classes and also see established wealthy classes being opposed to their utopia dreams (even though established wealthy individuals actually tend to be very progressive and progressives tend to come from wealthier backgrounds than conservative capitalists).
Populism in itself is also not inherently anti-corporate traditionally. It's has become somewhat more so. Populism is more about a feeling of unfairness, that the rules don't apply to others. In actuality, capitalism is actually the best economic system to accomplish fairness. The problem is that capitalism is an individualist system, whereas socialism, fascism and Marxism are collectivists. Progressivism is also a collectivist ideology.
Part of the result of loss of community I mention above is people seeking a sense of belonging they no longer have. This often results in more collectivistic isolation. The lure of belonging to a larger group. But the problem is that in collectivists systems you lose your identity. So, they tend to be dehumanizing.
As America has become more progressive, we've also drifted more towards corporatism and consumerism. Even those who espouse rejection of consumerism are oftentimes some of the biggest perpetrators of it. They have the latest I-phone or Galaxy Phone. Spend disproportionate amount of time on social media. Buy the "right" brands, etc. This is the very definition of consumerism. They identify by what they consume, not what they produce. It's the driver of ESG investing and the BDS movement. That is consumerism. You're not identifying any longer by what you produce but by what you consume. And it's hollow. It's dehumanizing and it doesn't actually fulfill a strong sense of identity. It's to nebulous to provide a sense of identity and community.
Why are so many old hippies now conservatives or libertarians? Because originally the counterculture of the 1960s was a individualism rejection of the perceived collectivism and homogeneous culture of the 1950s. By the late 1960s, through the end of the 1970s the counterculture was hijacked by more collectivists, progressives. Gen X was raised in this environment and during a time of deindustrialization that destroyed community identity at the same time that collectivists were taking over the left side of politics. It's the Hallmark of the movies we watched and the music we listened to and later created. This media portrayed a sense of establishing an identity for ourselves, in a world that was quickly becoming more impersonal. But it also was about connecting to a sense of community and the loss of community. You see it The Goonies, any John Hughes movie, it's the theme of Kurt Cobain's music (Smells Like Team Spirit definitely has this theme). Grunge, alternative and even Country in the 1990s constantly repeats similar themes. A sense of asserting individual identity while decrying the loss of community identity.
Modern labels basically all come down to individualism vs collectivism. The thing is that individualism is not a rejection of the need to belong to a community, but instead is about maintaining a sense of self identity while also belonging to a community. Collectivism stresses the collective over the individual. Collectivists see that individual needs and wants as roadblocks to collective good. Oh they would argue they're for diversity but even their sense of diversity is collectivists. You're LGBT, you're BIOPOC, etc. You're defined as what group you belong to, first. And you're expected to put the "good" of the group before your own self. If you don't you're a "race-traitor", a TERF, a self hating homosexual, an enabler of the white, cis-hetetosexual patriarchy etc. This denies any possibility of self identity, of variety. It's a requirement for conformity.
Individualism on the other hand is an assertion that while you may belong to a larger community, you should be defined by your own individual identity devoid of the larger group you belong to. I'm white, I'm cisnormative, I'm male, I'm Christian, I'm protestant, I'm Lutheran, I love history, I love westerns, I love Sci-fi and fantasy, I'm a scientist, I'm a veteran, I'm a rancher, I'm a nurse, I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm autistic, I have ADHD, I'm a genius (as in I've actually been tested and meet the criteria), I'm rural, I grew up on a Reservation in Idaho, I'm Gen X, I'm from a solid blue collar, middle class family etc. No single one of these identities define me but all do help, in their totality, explain my identity. But not a single one, by itself can. And no one is like me, because every person has so many different group influences, that no single group identity can ever identify a single individual.
A community is marked by different individuals, each unique, with a common base identity. You belong but are not subsumed or defined by the community. Collectivism defines you solely by the community. That's why it's hollow, that's why collectivists tend to be less happy by almost every study ever done on the subject.
"Populism in itself is also not inherently anti-corporate traditionally."
I disagree here. Wat Tyler of the peasants' revolt (When Adam delved and Eve span, who then was the Gentleman?) was the quintessential populist. The corporation he aimed at was the church. In 19th American politics, it was the railways and the bankers. I think they would have been mystified by asking them if they thought of themselves as unique individuals.
"The problem is that capitalism is an individualist system,"
I'm not sure how systems can be individualist but our most significant economic entities, like Google or Exxon, are collectivities, composed of many people, and are charged with looking after and promoting the interests of the share holders, another collectivity of many.
"No single one of these identities define me but all do help, in their totality, explain my identity. But not a single one, by itself can. "
You sound more like a collection of collectivities, an 'uber collectivist' than an individualist. But I don't disagree with the thrust of your point.
"Collectivism defines you solely by the community."
I don't agree with you here. People define themselves according to what project they are engaged in. If they are at work cutting someone's hair, they are a barber. Fighting for recognition of sexual rights, the same person is gay. Collecting stamps, they're a philatelist. I don't think that anyone defines themselves solely by the community, or for that matter denies their individuality.
It seems trite to privilege individualism over collectivism. Some projects do best at the hand of a single individual, like novel writing. For pyramid building, you need vast numbers working toward a single goal.
No, collectivism is all about identifying as a group. You tend to be a fan of collectivism and you realize, subconsciously, that it's dehumanizing so you emotionally reject the fairly obvious implications. I am a rancher, but I don't identify solely as a rancher, and I'm different than every other rancher. Because ranching is not my sole identifier, even when I'm working on ranch related activities. I'm a conservationist, regenerative, progressive (not politically but as in I utilize modern methods) but also a traditionalist, rancher, who is more open to experimentation. I'm a new rancher, who didn't inherit my ranch and who didn't grow up with ranching in my parents generation. I don't ever define myself as a rancher, except as a vocation (that I love).
Individualism recognizes the importance of individual identity and believes that collective good can only come from honoring individual identity and achievement.
"No, collectivism is all about identifying as a group. "
But who identifies as a group? I consider myself an individual. Or a member of any number of groups according to the situation I'm in.
"You tend to be a fan of collectivism and you realize, subconsciously, that it’s dehumanizing"
How is identifying as a member of a group dehumanizing? Humans have organized themselves in groups since they came down from the trees, and before that even.
" I am a rancher, but I don’t identify solely as a rancher,"
Out of curiosity, have you ever met anyone who identifies solely as a rancher? My guess is no. This is pure straw man argumentation.
"that collective good can only come from honoring individual identity and achievement."
In any enterprise of size, collective good comes from team work as well as individual effort. Prioritizing one over the other, or claiming that working together as a team is dehumanizing seems to completely miss the mark.
Your second sentence is exactly my point. You identity is whatever group you're in. As for how identifying as a group is dehumanizing, when you identity is based on the group, it removes the sense of self that defines being human. No, never met a rancher who identifies solely as a rancher, because ranchers tend to be very individualists. But, I've never met a rancher who will tell you they're a rancher either, unless you ask or it becomes pertinent. Collectivists almost always tell you which group they identify with without being asked. Take pronouns. They now tell you their pronouns without even being asked. So, yes, their identity is defined by which group they want to be associated with. Three things almost no rancher will ever tell you is how many head they own, how much property they own, and how much money they have in the bank.
Teamwork is not antithesis to indivualism. Teamwork isn't collectivists. Productive teamwork is recognizing individuals strength and weaknesses, catering tasks to the individual and succeeding because of each person's skill. Collectivism treats everyone as the same. Equity is the idea that everyone's success is a byproduct of external conditions. Equality is the idea that everyone has the same access and chances and that outcome is related to individual effort, skills, and desires, with desires being the least important of these.
The problem is that as a collectivist, you think indivualism is selfish, and self serving. It isn't. First, because not everyone has the same goals and desires. Second, individualism isn't the opposite of teamwork, but the idea that teamwork is successful because of the differences between the individual and utilizing those differences for success.
Collectivists believe everyone should be the QB. Individualism recognizes that some people are quarterbacks, while others are offensive tackles, half backs and fullbacks, and some only made the roster as second string special teams specialists and practice squad and that's okay. Capitalism is that if you are third string QB and want to start, put in the effort. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady weren't the most gifted QBs, most talented. They were the best because they worked the hardest. Manning was obsessive about game films. So was Brady. Wilson used to be, but he's really let the fame go to his head, and he's not half the QB he was three years ago. Manning and Brady got better with age and experience. Marino was great because he innovated, focusing on time of release, using a shorter drop back to get the ball out quicker. Now almost every QB is about that. Lynch wasn't the first big fullback, but he was recognized as one of the best because he perfected the single cut run. Marino never won a Superbowl. Manning, Brady, Wilson, Lynch have. Individualism isn't about Michael Jordan winning because he's Michael Jordan. It's about recognizing Michael Jordan is great, but so is Scotty Pippen in a different way. It's about valuing the differences to make the whole better. Collectivism is benching Michael Jordan so the towel boy gets equal playing time.
"You identity is whatever group you’re in. "
I disagree. I think your identity is what you're doing, but that often determines who you are with so I guess you may have a point.
"No, never met a rancher who identifies solely as a rancher, because ranchers tend to be very individualists. But, I’ve never met a rancher who will tell you they’re a rancher either, unless you ask or it becomes pertinent."
It's well known that if you get a rancher drunk they will readily admit to being rugged individualists.
"They now tell you their pronouns without even being asked."
Because they want to tailor the language to their individual tastes. What could be more individualist than that? You'd prefer them to follow the collectivist route and use pronouns in the old fashioned way that the rest of us sheep use. Tattoos, too. I guarantee you if you see a person using pronouns in a heterodox way, you'll also see tattoos, often spreading over the entire body. What could be a more direct and obvious proclamation of individualism?
"Collectivism treats everyone as the same."
You're getting mixed up. That's called egalitarianism. Now you seem to be conflating the two. And how equals can't be proper team mates because they're not individuals or something. It's a confusing mish mash you offer here.
"First, because not everyone has the same goals and desires."
We do though, we're human, and there's not getting around that. Members of an entire species. We all desire shelter, clothing, health, food, companionship, to be treated decently and with respect. The fact that some of us desire vanilla while others prefer chocolate is trivial and frivolous by comparison.
"Collectivists believe everyone should be the QB."
Maybe they believe a QB, not the. And that's egalitarians for you. Collectivists, I honestly still don't understand what you mean by it, or what makes them different from individualists, except that you think individualists are better in just about every conceivable way.
No, l'm not an Uber collectivists because those are only contributors to my identity. Recognizing that your self is a multifaceted collection of experiences is not a collectivists. It's indivualism because everyone's experiences are different, ergo, you aren't defined by your experiences, group identities.
The Peasants' Revolt was not against corporations (which mostly didn't exist in the Holy Roman Empire of the 16th century). It was a revolt of peasants against the aristocracy to which they were indentured. It was almost completely ignored by the burghers in the larger towns, who made up the guilds. It was also driven by the fact that burghers, aristocrats, clergy all had manumission that was denied to the peasants in the empire. Additionally, late Renaissance Holy Roman Empire was hardly a capitalist society or economy. Capitalism was not a valid economic system until the industrial revolution and the associated age of enlightenment, which was always an individualist movement that rejected the collectivism of feudalism and aristocracies of Europe at the time.
The populists of the late 19th century was largely driven by progressivism, collectivists ideology as espoused by Marx. But not everyone was anti-capitalists even then. And even those movements can be tied back not to true free market capitalism but to the evils of crony capitalism, crony corporatism, that contributed to company towns, with workers paid in company script, which made workers indentured servants.
"No, l’m not an Uber collectivists because those are only contributors to my identity. Recognizing that your self is a multifaceted collection of experiences is not a collectivists."
You're no different from anyone else in that regard. It doesn't make you an individualist, however you want to define it. You've probably heard of 'intersectionality.' The idea that belonging to different overlapping communities has an effect on an individual. How is that different from your being simultaneously a rancher, veteran and scientist?
" It was a revolt of peasants against the aristocracy to which they were indentured."
No, it was the church, a corporate body, if not a 'corporation' in the modern usage. They were also rebelling against government tax collectors. It was their deference to the aristocracy, specifically in the person of King Richard, that was their downfall.
"age of enlightenment, which was always an individualist movement that rejected the collectivism of feudalism and aristocracies of Europe at the time"
My beef with the Enlightenment is that it ushered in an era of colonialism, witch burning, and chattel slavery to Europe. All of which are collective enterprises, and only exist by suppressing individualism.
Which Peasants' Revolt are you referring to? The one following the Black death in England, which was driven because serfdom tied people to the land when the cities offered better jobs, i.e. it was a revolt against collectivism. Also, capitalism didn't exist and neither did modern corporations.
The other was the Peasants' Revolt or Peasants' War in 1524 Holy Roman Empire, which again, was about rural workers revolting against serfdom, revolting against collectivism and asserting their rights as individualists to seek other opportunities. I.e. both revolts were about rejecting collectivists ideology, and were proto capitalists in nature. The ability of the individual to make their own choices and succeed by their own work.
Actually, I am very different than collectivists. I've never criticized a black person as a race traitor. I've never accused a conservative homosexual as being self hating. Because, unlike collectivists, progressives, I don't see the black Republican as a black person first, or the conservative homosexual as being homosexual first, nor do I think ever that your identity or the group you identify with should be how I judge you. I don't need to know your pronoun, and I don't need to tell you mine. If you call me by the wrong pronoun, it's not really that important. I may correct you, but never aggressively and I won't get bent out of shape if you get it wrong. I don't go around telling people what groups I identify with, because they don't define me. I don't see a gay person as being gay. Because it doesn't matter. I see them for what kind of person they are. Their being gay doesn't define them to me, it's incidental. White privilege is not seeing people as individuals but as a collective. If you identify as a white colonizer, you aren't seeing yourself as an individual but as a collective identity. If you label yourself they, and them, that's a plural pronoun which is about as non-individual as it comes. And if you introduce yourself to people and tell them your pronoun without being asked, it's because your identity is about the group you want to be identified with. And with all things collectivists, when it comes down to it, at its roots it's selfish and egotistical dressed up as collective empathy.
Yeah, I can see all the groups I belong to, but I don't identify as any of those. Yes, they've shaped me but it's not they don't define me. You'll never see me walk up to a stranger and saying "Hello, my name is Jeff, he/him, I'm a Lutheran, rancher, veteran and I'm a constitutional conservative, classical liberal." I do it on here when it's pertinent and because it's appropriate for the situation. Sometimes, it's to demonstrate a certain knowledge base. You might guess I'm a veteran or rancher, by the way I talk and or dress, or you saw me participating in American Legion activities. But I won't tell you unless it naturally comes up or you ask me. Because, while being a veteran is important to me, it's not how I demand others to view me.
"which was driven because serfdom tied people to the land when the cities offered better jobs, i.e. it was a revolt against collectivism"
People of the middle ages were tied to their land, but it didn't determine their identity. They took their names from the work they did. Miller, Cooper, Carter, Smith, and so on. They also had families and religious beliefs that informed their identity. The revolt wasn't against collectivism, they banded together to form a collective mass fighting the oppressive conditions of the church and king.
"Actually, I am very different than collectivists. I’ve never criticized a black person as a race traitor. I’ve never accused a conservative homosexual as being self hating. "
Maybe it's time you did. You wouldn't do well in the criminal underworld. They all hate stoolies. Your tolerance for stoolies would mark you as an outsider, not to be trusted. Belong to any group, and you're expected to respect the boundaries that separate us from them. That goes for ranchers too. You tell us ranchers talk this way, say some things, don't say other things.
"And if you introduce yourself to people and tell them your pronoun without being asked"
Again with the obsessing over pronouns! What if on meeting someone you tell them your name, and don't mention anything about pronouns? Telling your name means you're an individualist? But wait telling them your family name reveals your family, a notoriously deeply entrenched collectivity. How about forget about the last name and use the first name. Ooops the Christian name. Religious affiliation, yet another collectivity.
soldiermedic76, you're dealing with this:
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
"Spouting nonsense is an end in itself."
Smug, stupid and proud of it.
And I’d argue that any rejection of consumerism is also a rejection of capitalism, as both involve an ever increasing accumulation of wealth.
I disagree. I am thinking of "consumerism" as an economy driven by people buying 'stuff' that they want, but don't really need. And that they will often do so using debt rather than being frugal and saving for it. (I mean, really, why would anyone halfway financially literate buy a TV with a credit card rather than save up for one? And I say this as someone that has done exactly that.)
Having some luxury items or spending on entertainment rather than basic necessities is always going to happen as people want to enjoy life, not just survive. But there is nothing inherent in capitalism that says that people have to spend as much on such luxuries as people in the U.S. do.
Actually agree with you.
To take that further, it's spending on temporary things. Nothing gets repaired anymore. You buy something and expect to replace it within five years. If it breaks before then you don't fix it, you replace it. Largely because companies make it nearly impossible for anything to be repaired, and if it can, the cost is nearly the same as replacement. It's getting even that way with automobiles and will get worse with EVs because repair costs are much higher for EVs, and battery life is only 5-7 years anyhow (which is going to be a real problem as most cars sold are used, and the average age of fifty percent of vehicles on the road is over ten years old).
"But there is nothing inherent in capitalism that says that people have to spend as much on such luxuries as people in the U.S. do."
Capitalists rely on advertising and planned obsolescence to keep consumers consuming. And capitalists are happy when consumers buy luxury goods, just as they are with anything they produce.
Wealth. Is. Not. Real
Cash is real -only if the currency holds as the worlds reserve
Maybe Sanders private lakeside vacation home was worth $300k in 2020. Today it might be worth $230k. Tomorrow it might go down to $100k. He was taxed on the value in 2020 and will not be getting a refund for the collapse in value. That unrealized gain of $200k was “wealth” that vanished- puff gone.
SBF was worth 21 billion around six weeks ago. He’s worth 0 or negative numbers when the lawsuits are over.
Numbers on a computer screen
Another decent point. Most wealthy individuals are wealthy in non-liquid assets whose value fluctuates. It's often not even money in a bank account that only exists as long as the bank remains solvent enough to cover it's deposits. SBF and his crew didn't go bankrupt because they lost money, but because the couldn't cover the value of their deposits (in this case, what the value of the cryptocurrency they offered was supposedly worth).
I know many "wealthy" farmers and ranchers, who struggle to make day to day payments, because their wealth is not liquid and it's difficult for them to easily convert it to liquid wealth (and when they do, they're likely not going to get the accessed value). They live on credit, against their assets. This is the same for most wealthy people, especially generational wealth. It's also why wealth taxes invariably fail every time they're tried. Wealthy people aren't Scrooge McDuck swimming in his vault. It's assets, accessed at a hypothetical value, that rarely is achievable.
Yeah, accumulate wealth??? WTF does that mean. This guy is probably a low level mule for a socialist laundering campaign, a useful idiot who will die when not useful.
This is exactly why socialist kleptocrat despots launder cash. Manipulate currency then cash out into a lavish lifestyle. I cannot understand the inability of so called socialists to understand that they are propping up evil despots- not community.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/bribery-trial-tests-us-cases-against-venezuela-kleptocrats/ar-AA14HZ7K
Socialism like any collectivists ideology is actually very selfish dressed up as altruistic. Identity politics is completely collectivists, but by demanding others define you first by your group identity and then treat you accordingly, it's about demanding special attention while claiming to be bettering the world for the oppressed. Socialism is selfish in that you're demanding that no matter what you contribute, you deserve the benefits of other people's work too. That wealth and property (which is what actually defines most wealth) should belong to the collective no matter what they contribute, and generally socialist and progressives define this by what others have that they don't and why that's unfair, and how to make it fair. The problem with that is someone is in charge, someone works harder while others work less or not at all. So, the people in charge become more despotic because when there eventually becomes no incentive to work hard, no reward. And it's obvious in that system that only those in charge succeed. It's the same with any collectivists ideology. Only the people in charge, making the rules succeed. You aren't judged on your merits, because merits don't matter, unless you're in charge.
In reality Marxism, Socialism, progressivism, fascism are no different than any other older collectivists ideologies. Feudalism was, in it's essence, a collectivist ideology. It was said that after 1917, the only thing that changed in Russia was what the Tsar called themselves. The French Revolution was really a proto Marxist revolt, a collectivist revolt. It dissolved into the reign of terror and then imperial France, replacing one autocrat with another. The American Revolution didn't because it was a capitalist society, that valued individual success. Largely because England was a capitalist society that had a stronger sense of individual rights. Almost all the bad things that are part of American history is due to collectivism. Slavery, Jim Crow, treatment of Amerindians. It's because people were judged not by their indivualism but due to their group identity.
Great post soldiermedic76; I go one step further. The breakdown of the nuclear family is the fulcrum on which this originated (loss of sense of community and societal cohesion).
GenX like yourself (I was one of those 'latch-key' kids of the early 70's after my parents divorced); very cynical. 🙂
I don't have any problem with people deciding not to work for whatever reason. I do object to them reacting to their unemployment by demanding government take money from others to support their unemployment. This is extortion.
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
Think we passed the break point...good quote.
OMG! What's happening????
How many times can people keep doing the same exact shit and act surprised about the same exact outcome???
THERE IS NO SURPRISE!!! The consequences of Socialism and Communism are sooooooooooooooooooooo well documented, proven upon case after case after case throughout all of human history and it's "government" experiences....
Why communism has never been "really" tried? Because it F'En falls-apart/destroys everything long before its BS imaginary-utopia pops out of the fairy-queens *ss. The very utopian dream of it is SLAVERY and INJUSTICE (cancelling any sense of Justice/*EARNING* sh*t)...
The latest in kleptocrat socialists from Venezuela:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/bribery-trial-tests-us-cases-against-venezuela-kleptocrats/ar-AA14HZ7K
Let’s send the DSA to Venezuela!!!
Taxing the working rich works because the working rich ("upper middle class") have significant internal drive to work and succeed. Income correlates with this. Increasing their taxes doesn't cut their hours as much as you might expect.
On the flip side are people who are entirely of the wagie mentality. Spend 10 minutes on reddit and you'll recognize it.
These people have zero drive or expectation of climbing up the corporate ladder. They aren't obsessing over retirement accounts. They just need a mattress and a smart phone. They'll work enough to make that happen, but they don't think that more is even achievable.
If you have no hope of "getting ahead" then why bother playing the game? Work a few shifts, collect some unemployment, sleep in.
People aren't socializing. They aren't dating.
"Internal drive to work and succeed"- The fact that people actually believe that this is the main thing that separates the haves from the have nots is just pathetic. I know so many "successful" people that are lazy morons, and poor people that work their ass off. This is just confirmation bias for people to justify the lucky hand they have been dealt. Open your eyes.
I know of many lefty shits who claim what you do without a shred of evidence, lefty shit.
What we're observing is a de facto universal basic income.
This, universal basic subsidies based on median income (Obamacare). EQUITY
There’s a giant money faucet open somewhere. We get a steady stream of people who come in the first day and do elms and then bolt. Story I’ve heard is that as long as you go through the motions and claim they can’t pay you what you need to survive you can stay on assistance for a good while.
Turn off the faucet and they’re going to have to get some kind of money somewhere.
As far as “fairness”, I definitely sympathize with the deeper problem. Cost of living. And thanks to things like property tax we can’t actually own anything free and clear. And the whole system just seems like a way of wringing the fruits of your labors out of you til you croak. And a lot of people can’t even retire anymore.
Destroying all incentives will do a number on undermining work ethic and making democratic socialism seem enticing.
I feel like Reason writers and readers would do well to actually go look at /r/antiwork and see the kinds of things that are frequently complained about over there.
Here's a few that come to mind:
(1) hiring managers advertising one payrate then offering a drastically lower one.
(2) bosses that demand people come in while sick or injured.
(3) bosses that demand people come in on their scheduled days off
(4) erratic work schedules that are handed out late, thus making it impossible to work around them.
Some people at /r/antiwork really do hate work. Most just hate unreasonable work that is hostile to life.
"...Here’s a few that come to mind:
(1) hiring managers advertising one payrate then offering a drastically lower one.
(2) bosses that demand people come in while sick or injured.
(3) bosses that demand people come in on their scheduled days off
(4) erratic work schedules that are handed out late, thus making it impossible to work around them."
Got any evidence, or just lefty shit whines?
Feel free to go to /r/antiwork and peruse it yourself, dude.
SSo, no? Dooood!
Are you claiming that these things don't happen? Are you delusional? I have had more than 40 jobs in my life. Some jobs I was the boss and hired people. All of these things happen ( at some jobs more than others) No set schedules, no calling in sick, days off canceled. I have dealt with all of these things.
The claim was made by dooood; I asked for evidence.
Are you claiming 'everyone knows'?
Evidence, or STFU.
Still can't grasp how a 30 year old can just decide they don't want to work. They can't all be wealthy.
A few of them made a genuine fortune on all the ridiculous crypto and NFT scams that were all the rage there for a few years, but are now in total collapse.
Many, many more of them are eking out a survival level existence as so-called "content creators" (they make a lot of YouTube videos). Being a hot chick definitely helps a lot, and a very small handful at the top even make a lot of money doing it.
It's great for fucking Google, it's good (I guess) for those younger people who are surviving this way, but it's absolutely horrible the country as a whole.
Because we all know good and damn well that these "jobs" contribute virtually nothing of genuine tangible value to the country, economy, and society as a whole. How are we going to maintain a modern functional society over the long run if everyone as just an actor? It's impossible.
3rd party GUN-Theft. (i.e. Gov-Guns)
They're so GD F'En lazy they can't even steal for themselves.
Whatever happens, we're going to need to incorporate the new cultural knowledge that business leaders are not, in fact, productive geniuses but parasitic assholes.
Still, I don't think there's much use in moral shaming. You have to make new law. We've tried taking power from workers away for a generation or two, and everyone's pissed off and only a handful of assholes won. We're still leveraging people's very healthcare to keep them groveling for shit jobs.
"Whatever happens, we’re going to need to incorporate the new cultural knowledge that business leaders are not, in fact, productive geniuses but parasitic assholes."
No, we have to recognize that lying lefty shits are parasitic assholes, parasitic asshole.
Gosh Tony... If you think they're such parastic assholes why don't YOU go start a business without them?????????????
The problem with the left is they think just like the Plantation Owners of their Slavery Party past. [WE] own YOU because your accomplishments are "less then"... Gotta demonize the profitable to justify STEALING from them.
When if-ever leftards are held accountable for what they "imagine" in their pursuit of universal THEFT/ENSLAVEMENT they'll learn the magic tree doesn't exist (businesses need a good leader to succeed). In the meantime they'll just keep demonizing any group with wealth they can to justify their 3rd party armed-theft (Gov-Guns)....
And it all falls apart cause armed-criminals aren't an asset but a liability. GUNS do not create human resources.
Everything is so terrible and unfair, tony.
Whatever happens, we’re going to need to incorporate the new cultural knowledge that business leaders are not, in fact, productive geniuses but parasitic assholes.
I don't know how we could or should use laws to deal with this. But what you are fighting against is something ingrained in American thinking about capitalism. The heroes of capitalism are, as you put it, the "productive geniuses" that are innovating and finding new and more efficient ways of delivering things that people want and need, putting resources and capital to its most productive use, etc. They are the "makers" and risk-takers that we need to save us from stagnation.
That is all a kind of hero-worship, and it probably includes not a small amount of fantasy that any one of us could be the next rags-to-riches story. (And really, how many of these people really started in rags? Look at a list of the 500 wealthiest individuals in the U.S., and I doubt you're find many at all that weren't at least solidly middle class growing up and able to afford a college education.)
Or maybe; Just as many went from riches to rags as the other way and the CORE difference was whether they decided to play the "pitty-poor helpless me let me STEAL" game or the I'm going to be an asset for humanity instead of a liability-baby with criminal intentions.
The challenge ahead is how to rebuild a sense that the game is fair and everyone is playing in good faith.
The author started to hit on the idea when mentioning the size of executive compensation vs. that of the typical employee at a large corporation. It is well documented how the ratio of CEO pay to that of median workers at their companies at the largest publicly traded companies has gone from around 20-1 in the 1960s to well over 200-1 after 2000. (It was 1,447-1 at Apple, and 6,474-1 at Amazon in 2021.) Couple this with the general trends of how the investor class has seen their wealth and income greatly increase in recent decades while people working full time jobs (whether blue collar or white collar) have largely seen their wealth and income stagnate. It becomes hard to imagine why anyone making a living as an employee would not think that our economy is unfair.
The common counters to this are platitudes about rising tides raising all boats or why should it matter how much bigger someone else's slice of the pie is as long as the whole pie gets bigger. These don't counter the facts or the perception of those facts. Data is always open to interpretation and cause and effect in economics can be hard to establish. But some things are hard to explain away.
This is the scumbag who supports murder as a preventative:
JasonT20
February.6.2022 at 6:02 pm
“How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?...”
And YOU don't have the ability to start a business and pay a CEO $7/hr because?????????????????????????????????????
Any excuse, any excuse at all to ROB from those icky people.
Why it's so much *easier* just to ROB from them than to prove delusions in one's head exist.
Everything is so terrible and unfair, Jason.
Hey, I'm not the one complaining about a low labor participation rate and how all these lazy people won't get off their asses and get a job rather than live off our tax money. In the ideal free market capitalist view, workers and employers mutually agree to terms of employment, including compensation, based on their self-interest, right? If there aren't enough willing people to fill many jobs, people are unhappy with their pay, and there are people dropping out of the labor force, there will be reasons for that.
One of those reasons very well could be people looking at what they see and deciding that the game is rigged against them and then refusing to play. After all, one of the things that they saw was a billionaire flying himself into space while his mega-corporation fought his employees' attempts to form unions.
Another of those reasons was alluded to in this article but not examined closely. It very well could be that the massive consolidation of many industries into the hands of just a few giant corporations has reduced competition between employers for workers. "Find another job at another company if you're not happy with your pay" doesn't work for people when there aren't many other companies to work for.
Libertarians are supposed to be pro-free market, not pro-big business. I don't look at the modern U.S. economy as being a particularly free market where competitiveness drives innovation and growth. Instead, I see a lot of wealth and thus power concentrated into few hands that then use the sheer size of their companies to out-muscle potential competition, engage in rent-seeking with all levels of government, and otherwise control the levers of power for their own benefit. All of that is happening too often rather than for them to truly innovate and improve the lives of everyone the way that capitalism is supposed to.
"engage in rent-seeking with all levels of government, and otherwise control the levers of power for their own benefit."
Consequences compounding beyond comprehension of ignoring the Supreme Law and building a [WE] National Sozialists mob RULES (syn; Nazi) Empire.
Companies could just pay workers more, make the jobs less stressful, and worry less about making CEOs and shareholders richer
You could just fuck off.
Great idea! Wealthy people move and divest. Then the company closes and your community turns into Caracas Venezuela.
Yes; You could just do that. In fact you can do that RIGHT NOW.
What ever happened to the ultimatum game of produce or don't eat?
3rd party criminals (i.e. Gov-Guns with gangland-politics) found out it was just *easier* for their gang to conquer and consume the USA.
What happened is that it is no longer necessary for everyone to work all their lives in order for everyone to be able to eat. Instead of celebrating that, we look for ways to see it as a problem.
What did you say the debt was again???
And what was that about inflation???
You, "What debt, what inflation???".. Sickly narcissistic.
You're saying that we have a high debt and inflation because it's no longer necessary for people to work as hard as they used to? That makes no sense.
Un-Earned/Backed (borrowed) flood of USD'S???
Too many USD chasing Goods no-one wants to create???
It makes perfect sense.
The debt and inflation have nothing to do with how much labor it takes to produce enough food.
LMAO... So if US Currency doesn't associate with labor or food what exactly are you using it for? Firewood?
You're babbling.
There was a guy who ran a credit card processing business in Seattle who made headlines for paying all his low skilled employees $70k a year, and taking a big pay cut for himself. Big hero!
Got accused of sexual harassment and went bankrupt anyway. Haha.
This baby boomer lives on a taxed pension and IRA distributions. I pay about 3 percent in income taxes of my gross annual income and maybe about 3 percent of it on sales taxes. If I re-entered the work force and got a low paying entry level job, I would contribute (be taxed) of every extra earned dollar: 10% federal income tax, 3.3% state income tax, 2.5% city income tax, 6.2% FICA tax, 6.75% sales tax on non food purchases, plus incur unreimbursed transportation costs (62 cents/mile?). So I would have to pay the economically efficient, never wasteful, bureaucracy about 28% of my labor efforts in return for a little more disposable money.
I think I'll just sit on my butt and read Reason.com.
The argument has always been that the company or business gets the great share of the profit because they are the ones taking the risk. What the last couple decades has taught the average worker is that businesses don't suffer consequences, the government bails them out and the system covers for them and they pass the bill on to the public. If they are not actually taking a risk and they have rigged the system, then getting all the profit is a joke and workers have quit laughing.
If this and if that, and if they are paid to sit on their asses, well...
Yeah cause YOU are banned from starting a company or business BECAUSE????
You leftards sit on your *sses complaining about some root ur in but won't do anything about it.....
Who's to blame again???? UR!
U have every GD door at your whim as any other company or business had from the beginning. GO F'EN DO IT instead of compulsively winning how Justice can only be served if you can commit ARMED-THEFT at your whim.. What do you think the USA is going to look like when everyone is running around with GUNS stealing everything?
This is fairly simple. If those choosing not to work didn't have an alternative for income, the deal offered by employers would be far more appealing.
Eliminate disincentives to not work.
62.3% working or looking, Unemployment 3.5% = 59% working.
2021 Tax Revenue = $3,863,000,000,000
2021 US CC Deficit = $3,100,000,000,000
2021 Total Gov Spent $6,963,000,000,000
2021 Population = 331,893,745
x 59% = 195,817,309 working
x 41% = 136,176,435 not-working
Tax Incl. Deficit Charges for the working (6.963T/196M) = $35,525/yr
Gov Spending Incl Deficit Charges per non-working (6.963T/136M) = $52,198/yr
^^^ THAT IS WHY NO-ONE WANTS TO WORK.
This Nation is literally hanging by a thread before repeating Venezuela.
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