Privileged People Oppose Even 'Win-Win' Pro-Equality Policies, Says New Study
"Advantaged group members misperceive that equality necessarily comes at a cost to their group."

"Win-win" is the usual dynamic of voluntary exchanges in modern free market economies. Both parties win—that is, each participant gets a thing or service they want more than the thing they had before the transaction. That's a win-win. And yet, zero-sum thinking—you win, I lose—remains pervasive.
In their recent article, "If you rise, I fall," in Science Advances, a team of three psychologists associated with the University of California, Berkeley and Columbia University probe a particularly perplexing aspect of zero-sum thinking. They find in nine different studies that members of "advantaged groups" tend to interpret equality-enhancing measures as "necessarily harming their access to resources."
Of course, "advantaged" folks would be entirely correct if equality was being achieved through redistribution: taking resources from one group and giving them to another. That is just classic zero-sum divvying up slices from a fixed pie.
In their article, however, the researchers offer the results from studies in which resources are explicitly not being redistributed. Nothing is being taken from the resources currently enjoyed by the advantaged, but the disadvantaged are being awarded a higher proportion of the newly available resources. The tide is lifting the boats of the disadvantaged a bit higher than it is buoying up those of the already advantaged. And if these findings are right, the already advantaged tend to dislike the relative increase in equality.
In the studies, the resources being apportioned among the advantaged participants (mostly white Americans along with some Asians) and the disadvantaged groups (including black Americans, women, and Hispanics) include wages, home loans, college admission slots, and bonuses. In all of these studies, the researchers conducted surveys among participants aiming to measure five forms of ideological opposition to equality including political conservatism, social dominance orientation, belief that society is zero-sum, system-justifying beliefs, and explicit prejudice.
Instead of analyzing each of their nine studies, let's focus on a couple of the more salient ones.
In the first study, researchers recruited nearly 600 white U.S. citizens to ponder differentials in mortgage lending between whites and Latinos, the gender pay gap, or legacy admissions preferences. For mortgage lending, participants were told that white homebuyers received $386.4 billion in mortgage loans the previous year while Latinos had only gotten $12.6 billion. One set of participants was told that banks were proposing to increase the amount lent to Latinos in the next year by $7.3 billion while leaving the amount lent to whites the same (equality-enhancing). Another set was told that there were no changes in bank mortgage lending (status quo). And a third group was told that banks were proposing to reduce mortgage lending to Latinos by $7.3 billion (inequality-enhancing). Note that the resources available to whites do not change in any of the scenarios.
The participants were then asked, "How do you think this proposal will affect White homebuyers' chances of getting mortgage funding from these banks in the next year?" They were asked to rank their responses on a seven-point Likert scale running from -3 through 0 to +3, indicating greatly harm, no effect, and greatly improve, respectively.
After parsing the responses, the authors found that "participants misperceived equality-enhancing policies as significantly harmful to the advantaged ingroup's resource access whereas participants misperceived inequality-enhancing and status quo–preserving policies as improving their access to resources."

Remember, in this study, the resources available to the advantaged group do not change in any scenario. And the researchers found that their results persist when controlling for ideological beliefs. Similar results were found in subsequent studies in which participants were explicitly told that resources were essentially unlimited but that disadvantaged folks would gain greater relative access. The scenarios were designed to be explicitly win-win.
Let's consider one other study in greater detail. For this one, the researchers recruited nearly 500 Americans regardless of their ethnicity or gender. Participants were told that they were being assigned using a personality test to one of two teams: the Rattlers and the Eagles. They were told that a set number of participants were recruited each week and that the teams were completing a problem-solving challenge in which bonuses went to individuals selected by the experimenters. Actually, all participants were assigned to the Rattlers team. Participants were then told that the experimenters had selected 126 Rattlers to receive bonuses while 79 Eagles had gotten bonuses.
Experimenters then exposed participants to two scenarios. In the first equality-enhancing scenario, participants read a proposal in which five extra bonuses would be provided to the Rattlers and 50 extra bonuses to the Eagles. In this win-win scenario, the Rattlers would get 131 bonuses and the Eagles 129 bonuses. The chances that a member of the Rattler team would get a bonus had increased a bit, whereas the chances that an Eagle would receive a bonus went up considerably.
In the inequality-enhancing scenario, the participants read a proposal in which the Rattlers would get five fewer bonuses and the Eagles would get 50 fewer. In this lose-lose case, the Rattlers would receive 121 bonuses and the Eagles 29 bonuses. A Rattler's chance of a bonus declined slightly whereas those of an Eagle fell steeply.

The participants were then asked which scenario was more harmful to their chances of receiving a bonus. Dishearteningly, the "participants misperceived the win-win equality-enhancing policy as more harmful to their chances of receiving a bonus than the lose-lose inequality-enhancing policy." The Likert scale score for the win-win scenario was -1 (more harmful to chances), while the lose-lose scenario garnered +0.7 (improved chances). And this was found in a study in which the "advantaged" group was simply conjured into existence by the experimenters.
"Across nine studies, we show that advantaged group members misperceive equality-enhancing policies as harming their access to resources, even when the policies do no such thing," conclude the researchers. "These grim results suggest that perceiving equality as harmful to advantaged groups is a powerful heuristic."
Grim indeed.
One potential explanation for these depressing results is that the pervasive background drumbeat of progressive zero-sum redistributionism may simply have made it impossible for many participants to believe that equality-enhancing win-win policies might actually be sincere proposals.
Caveats: Yes, yes, I know all about the replication crisis in psychology, but to their credit, these researchers did preregister their methods and hypotheses at the Open Science Framework.
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Science!
"Science" as a form of ideological agitprop.
So equality is in bad odor these days?
That's encouraging!
Well first, where are they coming up with all of these investment dollars to lend for mortgages ? They get those dollars from investors, who don't want their investment money lent solely based on race because that tends to lead to bad mortgages and lost investment money. Generally when liberals say it won't cost you a penny it's actually going to cost you millions of pennies, they're just too simple minded to understand that. We can "forgive" trillions in loans and it won't cost anyone a cent...because trillions of dollars are free if the left says they are.
People are constantly being told that things won't negatively effect them that are clearly going to negatively effect them. These experiments don't test attitudes towards equality. What these studies ARE testing is whether people are going to believe someone in a white coat over their personal experience. And the right answer is HECK NO!!
There are thousands of social programs I sply do not have access to because I am a cis hetero white male. I flatly do not believe in any such thing as a social program which is win win. All of them are redistributary by design. This makes impossible imagining the existence of a true resource unlimited win win scenario where the benefactors will intentionally help "underprivileged" get more of the pie but somehow not take from people like me.
I need to read this carefully before I fully put on my brass knuckles, but it appears we're playing a semantic game between "redistribution" and "pre-allocation". In the end, there may not be a lot of difference between the two.
I read enough to see that all the "win-win" scenarios were also "government says" scenarios. Perhaps what these "psychologists" were measuring was how much people resent being told that government knows best, and therefore we are rigging the game against you.
Such as that mortgage question:"For mortgage lending, participants were told that white homebuyers received $386.4 billion in mortgage loans the previous year while Latinos had only gotten $12.6 billion."
"Were told" -- not that it is true or not, and since they also list "gender pay gap" and "legacy admissions", I know they are fixated on fairy tales already. The "gender pay gap" is mostly fictional once other factors are taken into account, and "legacy admissions" are not very different from "buy 10, get 1 free" cars or other loyalty programs. So pardon me for suspecting the mortgage gap is also fictional, and for not reading further.
I take it more as the average person’s inability to understand statistics/logic/math. The question asked was how did the groups’ chances of getting a mortgage change? That’s a simple statistics question.
Yes, anyone with basic math skills can do the word problem. He simply has to disregard the information not relevant to the question. Did the mortgages given to Whites change? No. Mortgages given to Latinos are irrelevant to that question. These subjects couldn't do basic math. Don't psychology professors recruit subjects from among the psychology majors? That could explain the phenomenon.
Except. This isn't an isolated math problem floating in thin air. This is a question about financial instutions.
If you are forcing more Latinos to get loans that would not normally get them, then the loans must be by definition higher risk (after all, there is no quota, so only people who are considered to be a high risk are denied loans). This means that there are two solutions: either the banks must balance their risks by lending less to other groups who are marginal, or the bank will have more foreclosures and defaults. Either case will cause the bank to restrict future loans either to non-Latinos specifically in the former or across the board in the latter case.
You can't do things in isolation. We aren't in elementary school. This is the real world.
Except that is not the question. People look at that question and ask, so what rules are you making me follow but waive for them to make this happen? They know you're asking "do you like having a game rigged against you if you technically can still participate?" The social studies were all intersectional marxist justifications of discrimination.
Where does the money come from to increase Latino mortgage loans, while keeping the White amount the same?
The amount available is finite, despite being "told" the White amount wouldn't drop, the fact that another group's share would increase tells the "advantaged" that their share will go down.
What this study shows is that the "advantaged" are wise to the ways they are "told" it will be a win-win, when that isn't how it ends up.
Loada bullshit.
^EXACTLY.. Well Said...
elites are assholes. film at 11
Nominal "elites". They were designated as "elites" based on sex and skin color, not anything else that would ordinarily signify being an "elite", such as having a high income.
Is this study from the same guys that say the left has grown more moderate and the right has grown more extreme?
In their article, however, the researchers offer the results from studies in which resources are explicitly not being redistributed. Nothing is being taken from the resources currently enjoyed by the advantaged, but the disadvantaged are being awarded a higher proportion of the newly available resources.
Sort of like a newly available Supreme Court seat where ONLY a woman of color would be considered.
wonder whether she can say whether she's a woman
She's no biologist, so no. Somehow Biden was able to find her, despite not being a biologist, or her submitting to a biological exam.
He uses his olfactory senses.
that's why he keeps picking carp.
anagram=crap
"In their article, however, the researchers offer the results from studies in which resources are explicitly not being redistributed. Nothing is being taken from the resources currently enjoyed by the advantaged, but the disadvantaged are being awarded a higher proportion of the newly available resources."
I think people have a sense that this doesn't reflect reality. If you give more to one group, it comes from somewhere, even if it's a new resource. If you preferentially distribute it to one group, you preferentially don't give it to another group. Maybe it's not technically redistribution, it's just planned group-based distribution.
The fact that people misjudge their odds in a purely hypothetical Eagles vs. Rattlers show that people are just dumb, I guess, but I don't think it applies to any practical real world policy. But hey, I'm a white male Rattler so...
Oops. Not meant to be a reply.
I'm only half joking about my supreme court seat analogy.
Redistribution: "Hey, Mr. *checks notes* Roberts, we're going to take your seat from you and give it to a woman of color."
Pre-allocation (newly available resource): "Ginsberg went on to sing with the choir invisibule last night, so we have a new supreme court seat open. What say we help a disadvantaged group by giving it to only a woman of color? Two points on the intersectional chart, yo!"
In the latter case, nothing was taken from an advantaged group. A higher proportion of a newly available resources was awarded to a disadvantaged group. Roberts didn't lose his seat, Kagan didn't lose her seat, no one "lost" a seat. Win-win, right?
That's my suspicion also. English is a living language, is it not?
Absolutely win-win for everyone (not counting all the men and non-black women that were qualified but not considered for the position because of their race or gender).
Right. Basically, they were told that their legs were about to get wet, but, explicitly, nobody was going to piss on them. Then they observed the researcher unzipping.
Research finding: People inexplicably believe they're going to be pissed on when told it's raining.
a team of three psychologists associated with the University of California, Berkeley and Columbia University
Peer reviewed at Oberlin.
One potential explanation for these depressing results is that the pervasive background drumbeat of progressive zero-sum redistributionism may simply have made it impossible for many participants to believe that equality-enhancing win-win policies might actually be sincere proposals.
I can't help but wonder if the participants have a keen eye for any type of top-down, inorganically imposed "fairness" scheme and naturally distrust it like the editorial bent of a certain magazine used to.
I stopped after the first study. It was based on Mortgages.
My first attempts to get a mortgage were unsuccessful. I had to go back, do some work at saving and structuring my finances, and then I was able to qualify. When you tell me that you are going to increase money to people based on something that has nothing to do with their qualifications, I am going to react negatively.
I don't think this is an example of people not wanting others to get a win. It is an example of people thinking about the reward for their work. Because that *isn't* win-win. That is "I work hard, I win. He doesn't, and he wins." I would look at that system and think my chances of success are lower too- because in a system where others win by different rules, while I work my ass off isn't success.
People are capable of imagining second, third and... fourth order effects. I'm not trying to get a mortgage, I got mine the old fashioned way many, many years ago. And it wasn't easy. If the [government] says they're going to make sure new mortgages are handed out by [other] characteristics that I perceive don't have anything to do with your qualifications, but are strictly based around their 'disadvantageness', I'm going to push back against that because I might be able to imagine a future where there's a collapse in mortgages and the financial sector (and possibly my investments, retirement and job prospects) because we handed out jillions of mortgages not based upon fitness of repayment, but upon [other] characteristics.
Agreed. Did the testers learn nothing from the 2008 mortgage crash?
Want to ensure race isn't a factor? Sure! Want to make it explicitly easier for one race to borrow money than another? What are you smoking?
^WELL SAID...
"based on something that has nothing to do with their qualifications"
"It is an example of people thinking about the reward for their work."
Marxists favorite game is to play completely ignorant to the concept of *EARNING*.
Even in a scenario where chances to win go up, just not as much as other people's... it is clear that I am not being treated fairly. Granted, it could be implied that my side was advantaged up to the starting point in the scenario... but that wasn't stated and as such it would make more sense to assume that the two sides were treated equally up to the point where my side was accruing more bonuses. Maybe we earned those... and by starting there and declaring by fiat that the other side was having an advantage expressly built in for them but not for my side, while it may produce outcome-equality, it is clearly an example of rules-inequality. In that framework it is zero-sum. If you treat one team differently, then it is to the detriment of the other team as it precludes their opportunity to achieve their maximum relative to the standard (in this case that being the success level of the other team).
see my comment above about "redistribution" vs "pre-allocation".
As I started reading I thought it would be about that. But the questions were very specific and had nothing to do with fairness. They were very clearly about the changes in the odds of getting a mortgage, etc. This study is simply about most people’s knowledge of statistics. It’s amazing how many people I’ve come across who think that if you flip a coin and get heads then the chances are better than 50/50 that the next flip will be tails. I’ve heard this from people with MBAs.
Read my note above. This only works if you de-couple the work necessary to get a mortgage. Getting a mortgage takes work. If you tell me that going forward, you are going to give more mortgages to people based on their race, you are telling me that some people, solely because of their race, will have lower standards.
Here is the problem: People understand that you don't just "get" returns. They are RETURNS ON INVESTMENT. If you are saying that I have to invest more to get the same return as other people, then in fact I AM worse off.
Also, 'my side was advantaged' - we don't have sides, we're not part of a team or collective, *I* was disadvantaged because some other people who share one or two characteristics with me are more successful.
*I* must be held back because we've already met the quota for 'my kind's' success.
That's how these scenarios are constructed. So, of course, who isn't going to think that's more equal - people aren't instinctively collectivist at that level.
Should we trust a berkly liberal arts professor to not design an social psychological experiment to come the the conclusion he already decided?
I’m perfectly willing to cancel out some of that ‘white privilege’ by savagely beating some white hetero soyboy progs. Reducing their privilege in such a manner should alleviate any related anxiety.
Or to come up with an experiment that measures something other than what they think they are measuring.
That is exactly what they did.
The scenarios are set up to advantage a *group* (where some individuals will get lucky) over individuals in another group.
Now do inflation.
Okay after reading through the outline of the study it is more retarded than I ever thought possible. It starts of by saying we are only testing white people. So the built in assumption to the first part of the study is that all white people are better off than all Latino.
It gets more retarded from there
Exactly.
The very first problem is the failure to define "advantaged." Does that just mean "white?" Because a poor white guy certainly isn't more advantaged that a black orthodontist from DC.
These studies are all garbage.
Actually, they DID define "advantaged": "white Americans, people without a disability, men, and non-felons".
You know, like your average Appalachian hard scrabble farmer. Advantaged.
Just popping in to say Thanks!.
Them's is my peoples, and that may be my new favorite quote.
I'm willing to bet this study can be summed up by "we took group x and asked them if group x get the same they are getting now and group y will get more then they are getting now is that fair" group x does not like this. Who you put in group x doesn't matter. It could be whites, gays, bald people, people that wear red shoes, literally any group with this set up will have very similar results
Allocating new resources based on "equality enhancing" criteria and not based on objective criteria is not "win-win." Ask the same group if the resources were allocated by some objective, quantifiable criteria that they could attempt to qualify for, and see how they feel about it then.
advantagED? privilegED? Don't buy in to that nonsense. Being successful isn't something that passively happens to you.
This^^ 100
Changes the rules. Like... Even if it wasn't my tax dollars paying for it, it would still be wrong to erase student debt. Rule change. Contract violation.
Reply to Sparkstable. They really need a new comment UI
I got as far as "UC Berkeley, and Columbia".
It seems to take a lot less time to get through the site lately, because a lot of "articles" have "skip the rest" flag in the first paragraph or even first sentence.
"And this was found in a study in which the "advantaged" group was simply conjured into existence by the experimenters."
All the studies simply conjured "advantaged" groups.
Better explanation is that the scenarios were so complex that participants really had no idea what was going on.
So a study regarding a mythical world where resources magically appear irrespective of production from labor.
So people bias their behaviors to an understanding of the real world when asked of this mythical world and researchers are shocked?
When the largest sample size is 594 people (not counting the mixed white/Asian group), and based on ethnicity, not income, the assertion that these are 'elites' or indeed advantaged is questionable at best, and the outcome is pure race-based junk science. I know that left-leaning folks are racist at heart, but this is pretty grotesque. Further, extrapolating from a subset this small to the population at large is the very definition of bias in research, and a logical fallacy to boot.
a team of three psychologists
I'm going to stop you right there. At this point, just ignore every psychological "study" you read. Ignore them all.
Didn't think it would be possible, but the replication rate of studies in social sciences is well under 50% for their conclusions. It is pretty impressive.
The only really solid result in the field I've heard of is stereotype accuracy, and BOY, does that ever annoy social science researchers knowing that the only thing they've ever been able to rigorously prove is that 'invidious' stereotypes are generally accurate if you bother to check.
But psychology is THE SCIENCE! It's like atoms and molecules and chromosomes and shit. Nah man I'm just fucking with you. It's totally horseshit.
Note that the resources available to whites do not change in any of the scenarios.
This is an artificial 'what if' scenario that isn't clear to anyone being presented with it.
Banks have limited resource in the real world and everyone fucking knows it so acting like all these white people were just opposed to latinos doing better (supposedly in this scenario) as opposed to fully understanding the parameters of the scenario are to unfairly and arbitrarily apply more of the banks' resources to a racial group for some reason, is typical lowIQ 'academia'.
I rest my case about "psychological studies" What a joke.
"We're creating new resources from the ether and we're going to assign them based on racial demographics," is still not actually focused on "equality." It's still redistribution by cutting off access to new resources based solely on superficial and immutable characteristics.
How is a supposed libertarian not able to see through this?
Ron isn’t a libertarian. At least not in any meaningful way.
Also just consider one other factor. Let's say we are in the middle of a housing boom, which we were in 2021. Housing prices are constantly going up. That means next year, $320 Billion will likely fund fewer mortgages than this year. Nearly doubling hispanic mortgage funding will mean more hispanics get mortgages, while in that scenario, fewer whites will get mortgages.
I read this sort of thing, and am mindful of the parable of the laborers in the vineyard (Matthew 20). But somehow, much as I want to follow the great rabbi's teachings on this, I still keep thinking that there is something wrong with focusing of equality of results. While I get equality before the law (something which we must all participate in to have a reasonably well working civil society), anything that involves differing rates of pay or support looks to me to be inherently unequal.
Maybe I need to reread the article again to see what I'm still missing?
Difference in the owner of a good freely distributing HIS own property as he sees fit vs a government whose available goods are coming from others with force.
Or for government to force others to give according to government’s rules… and the government’s rules treating people unequally before the law.
An important subplot of that parable is that it's the vineyard owner's money, not the laborers, and if they got what was agreed to it's none of their business if he decides to be generous to somebody else.
The government, of course, does not have it's own money, it has nothing but other people's money to spend, so the parable is not terribly applicable to government programs.
I see from the comments that some of you actually think you made sense of this gibberish.
Think of the most dishonest sophist you know... then call him jeff. Think of what his motivationd would be in a study that would produce the conclusions they wanted then figure out how you would create an illogical scenario not possible in the real world to justify your initial conclusions. That is how you understand it.
It is known as the Bears in Trunk branch of sociology.
Basically, all this study says to me is that the participants were smart enough to not buy the bullshit.
If you're making an explicit policy to increase mortgage lending to one group you are inherently making a policy that advantages that group vs another
Because there is only so much money.
So now you have another 7 billion for loans and you lend it all to Latinos regardless of anyone else's worthiness. Then what? You shrug your shoulders and tell the others 'hey, you weren't getting a loan when we didn't have this money anyway'. Is this equality or is it 'equity'?
You haven't made things more equal or more fair. You've simply tilted the playing field in the favor of one group.
It's sad you do not see that.
There is literally no win-win here, just a bonus round where you limit who gets to play.
Basically, all this study says to me is that the participants were smart enough to not buy the bullshit.
Exactly. See my comment about keen-eyed participants.
I suppose that none of this should not be a surprise. Sometime equal outcomes are unfair. In these studies one group is described as dominant. Members of dominant groups often/usually perceive that their dominant position is fairly earned, and systematic actions to artificially induce equal outcomes is perceived to be compensatory and unfair.
To take an example: I am a university professor at an R1 university. For people with similar time-in-rank, salary differentials should be based on performance differences. If (1) I am making $30K more than one of my colleagues, and (2) my performance in research and teaching activities is stellar, but (3) my colleague’s performance in research and teaching activities is mediocre or worse, I would deem my higher salary as being entirely fair and justified. Further, I would deem an effort to equalize our salaries to be unfair, even if my salary remains the same and I am not made worse off. Identical salaries for vastly different levels of performance would reasonably be deemed as unfair. I am not made better or worse off, and my colleague is made better off, so by the logic of these researchers I should not have a problem with that. But I—and I assume, most others—would find this to be unfair.
The same logit applies to group differences. In these studies there are initial differences between the dominant and marginalized groups, but resources are made equal through the use of compensatory efforts that keep the dominant group roughly where it is but that lift up the marginalized group. If one believes that the initial distribution favoring the dominant group is justified—and it appears that the studies do not suggest otherwise—then efforts to equalize the compensation/resources for the marginalized group would be deemed as lifting a less-deserving group to an equal position with the more-deserving group. Here again, the dominant group is not made worse off and the marginalized group is made better off, but the efforts to equalize compensation/resources would be seen as unfair.
The fact is that inequality is often a good thing, rewarding strong performance and punishing poor performance. Generating equality then performance is not equal is unfair.
It's not just "less deserving". Nobody just gets something for nothing. They have to put something on the line. If another group gets to put up less to get the same thing, my Return on Investment is lower. I am actually getting a lower payout for my work.
There's so much wrong with this study, I'm surprised it ever got published.
For mortgage lending, participants were told that white homebuyers received $386.4 billion in mortgage loans the previous year while Latinos had only gotten $12.6 billion. One set of participants was told that banks were proposing to increase the amount lent to Latinos in the next year by $7.3 billion while leaving the amount lent to whites the same (equality-enhancing).
That's simply not how the world works. Yesterday there were 100,000 white people vying for mortgages. They were given $386.4 billion. Tomorrow, there will be 123,000 white people vying for mortgages, yet the amount that [advantaged] group will be given is $386.4 billion.
Again, people are keenly aware of suspiciously top-down 'fairness' schemes, and the study was LITERALLY a suspiciously top-down 'fairness' scheme. Who made the decision to give "Latinos" a larger amount of Mortgage money? Some unkempt guy with a ponytail and flip flops said they were. Who is he? Why is he making this decision? How did he come to that decision? Where is the money coming from? Was there a reason that Latinos only got 7.3 billion? Was that reason because the bank managers saw a perfectly qualified mortgage application and saw "Lopez" on the signature line and said, "No way, not on my watch" or was it that the Latino group were generally less qualified than their white counterparts? Were Latinos less likely to seek mortgages because there are cultural reasons that make them averse to borrowing large amounts of money on iffy terms that the bank has a history of pushing? Are white's dumber than Latinos and willing to take out $500,000 in student loan debt to get an English Literature degree where Latinos look at that and say, "fuck this shit" and never take out the loan?
For fuck sakes.
It was the right type of wrong, the wrong actually helped it get published.
Bailey, this was utter horseshit, and I think you know better.
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In all of these studies, the researchers conducted surveys among participants aiming to measure five forms of ideological opposition to equality including political conservatism, social dominance orientation, belief that society is zero-sum, system-justifying beliefs, and explicit prejudice.
[...]
The participants were then asked, "How do you think this proposal will affect White homebuyers' chances of getting mortgage funding from these banks in the next year?"
Imagine the United States decided to open up a bunch of new Supreme Court seats. Let's then pretend that I'm an ambitious, white male, heterosexual judge who's worked hard for decades and has hoped and networked to possibly one day become a supreme court judge. Let's now say that I have in fact achieved a high degree of success and am well regarded in both political camps. Now the administration that was sitting when those new seats were opened up declared they'd ONLY be handed out to Women of Color.
This is an example of a new resource that has become available and, because by the arbitrary metrics I have been declared within an "advantaged group" so therefore these new resources were made only available to a 'disadvantaged' group.
Since It Is Known that the social science field is utterly dominated by left-wing and even marxist ideologues by a factor of 90 gajillion to 1, there is really little question in how loaded the terms are like "advantaged" groups.
I mean, Jesus:
What banks, lending based upon which pool of money etc.
There was a time, before everything was deemed "too big to fail" that you cared very, VERY much how your bank loaned its money because if the bank failed, YOU'D LOSE YOUR SAVINGS. The Banks of Old spent a lot of time and effort assuring their customers that they were stable, conservative institutions that watched over their money like steely-eyed hawks and would fight tooth-and-nail to make sure that nothing would destabilize your finances. When these banks failed to do so and you went to withdraw your money and the doors were locked... people got angry. Imagine you lived in that world again and the bank said, "We're going to keep the amount we loaned the white folks the same, but we'll be lending more to [disadvantaged group x] based solely on immutable characteristics, because equity. Yes, I'm probably going to pull my money out of that bank.
But the study's authors seem to pretend that money is an infinite resource which can be printed infinitely with no economic repercussions to the ENTIRE group as a whole which would include BOTH perceived advantaged and disadvantaged groups.
The deeper I read into this study, the dumber it looks.
Let's restructure this to show a little bit more about what is going on.
I am an investment company and I am able to take $1000 from every customer and turn that into $1200. Now I come to everyone and say, "Hey look, Latinos are not really participating much in this program. So here is what we will do. In order to increase the number of Latinos participating, we will let them invest $900 and get back $1200."
This captures what a lot of people innately sense: that it takes work to get returns. And people will see that Latinos are now getting a higher Return on Investment for no reason other than ethnicity. They in fact ARE getting more than the non-Latinos.
When I finally read the actual details of the study, I realized I was wrong.
it was worse than I initially suspected.
This is LITERALLY the kind of study that you pimp when you don't understand the difference between "equality" and "equity".
Is it really shocking that the people that did the studies don’t know or understand the difference? Is it even a shock that Ron seems not to either?
The people that did the study DO know the difference, so they manufactured a study with a guaranteed result to establish a foregone conclusion.
Hmm, fair point.
Is that how banks work? They decide how much money they’ll lend to latinos at the beginning of the year?
If that’s the way the bank works, then the white people are correct, because the resources are not constant: white people are being lent the same amount of money, but the bank has apparently switched from “perfect white supremacy” to “somewhat less white supremacy.” This affects the service level the banks can provide when compared to whites only.
Of course, it’s a ridiculous way to find out what people really think.
We're going lend more of your savings to Latinos.
Why.
Because equity.
Are they able to pay it back?
Don't know, don't care. Equity.
I'm not comfortable with that.
RACIST!
"In the studies, the resources being apportioned among the advantaged participants (mostly white Americans along with some Asians) and the disadvantaged groups (including black Americans, women, and Hispanics)..."
In my mind, that makes the study bogus right there.
I wouldn't read too much into this - sociology and psychology are as rigid disciplines as astrology is.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2015.18248
Racist tripe.
"We will give the blacks more of resource X".
One potential explanation for these depressing results is that the pervasive background drumbeat of progressive zero-sum redistributionism may simply have made it impossible for many participants to believe that equality-enhancing win-win policies might actually be sincere proposals.
Because these proposals are the opposite of win/win. They're not measuring what they claim to be measuring.
I would be willing to bet that if they reversed the positions, and gave a minority a poll about “advantaged people” getting a greater percentage of new loans next year, suddenly that wouldn’t seem very fair.
It is good to see Ron embracing his intersectional marxist truth. These studies do not show win/win situations but but equity in action. This is a rebalancing of the landscape to favor one group over another, all else equal, which of course is where Ron and the academic marxists go wrong.
These studies show people react negatively to racism, pure and simple. The only reason provided to give more to the disadvantaged was because of the color of their skin, not to provide more equal access to opportunity or based on anything related to the benefit being awarded.
You could show studies measuring what is purported here, but true win/win situations where everyone is better off based on what they put in might not show the predetermined outcome, and who pays for research that doesn't "prove" that white people are evil racists.
Why exactly should we all aspire to have a mortgage? So a thirty year debt is a sign of success? Pretty fucked up in my view.
I didn't read the article.
Given that, if somebody such as a politician or a SJW type comes to me and says something along the lines "this change in policy will result in greater equality for all concerned and no individual (or group) will be injured in any way", my instinctive response is gonna be "bullshit, you're lying to me and planning to fuck me" and I will oppose it. That is just common sense and the result of experience in my "lived life".
The activist left hates me because I am a white male. They have made that abundantly clear. I will not cooperate with them or comply with their demands. I do not trust them because I am not stupid.
I fully support equality of opportunity for everybody. I fully condemn "equity" as defined by modern SJW types and their leftist puppets.
Ron has become an even greater disappointment than David Brooks
Note the specific question : "How do you think this proposal will affect White homebuyers' chances of getting mortgage funding from these banks in the next year?"
The money available for mortgages to White homebuyers is fixed at the same level as this year. What would the average White (or black, or Hispanic or oranged striped) homebuyer think about how this year and next year might differ ?
Based on the record of the past 100 years or so, from year to year, the population increases, including that subset of the population seeking mortgages, and the price of homes goes up. Therefore there will be greater competition for each dollar of mortgage funding next year, unless the dollar funding increases by at least as much as the increased demand for funds from population growth and home price increases. So if you are told the dollar funding is to be frozen at last year's level, the answer to :
"How do you think this proposal will affect White homebuyers' chances of getting mortgage funding from these banks in the next year?"
can be nothing other than "badly."
It's not even as if this is a stunning new insight from Professor Lee Moore. It's the opening line of every negotiation about next year's budget about anything, from Congressional appropriations, to departmental budgets in businesses, to the kids' pocket money.
A better designed psychological test would try to neutralise the natural assumption of the people being quizzed that the extra money for other people is coming at their expense (by some unknown roundabout route) and might otherwise have been available to them.
A possibility might be to specify that the extra money is not general bank funds, that in principle could go anywhere, but is money specifally earmarked for Latino mortgages by a bequest in the Will of Mrs Lupe Hernandez, a rich and recently deceased widow, whose Will simply engages the bank as the agent of her Latino mortgage fund.
My prediction would be that in these circumstances, non-Latino mortgage seekers would not see the extra Latino mortgage money as coming at their expense.
Even in that scenario, people are inevitably going to consider that, if Robert Cracker, so white he glows in the dark, wins the lottery and decides to do the exact same thing on behalf of Caucasians, he'd be shut down so fast your head would spin.
And resist the double standard.
Ok, in those circumstances, would more Latinos outbid white people for homes they wanted to buy than would otherwise have happened?
If the answer is "yes" then white people are worse off if this happens.
"In their article, however, the researchers offer the results from studies in which resources are explicitly not being redistributed. Nothing is being taken from the resources currently enjoyed by the advantaged, but the disadvantaged are being awarded a higher proportion of the newly available resources."
You (and they) may call that non-redistribution, but that dog still has only four legs.
Sevo's law: When a third party sticks its nose in a free transaction between two parties, one of both loses. EVERY TIME.
The whole premise of the scenarios is improper, and the participants know it. Any quota based on race or other "group" is improper, and "maintaining" benefits to an identity group while enhancing benefits to another is a restriction on the maintained benefits group. Only by group and color blindness will there be justice. With today's access to education, members of all groups have equal ability to succeed, if they're not playing the victim card.
"Advantaged group members misperceive that equality necessarily comes at a cost to their group."
So not a single one of them is aware that as we suffered mightily under the fascist yoke of the mean tweeter in chief, the economic condition of every single citizen not incarcerated improved?
Some of these studies seem more to be a measurement of belief or financial understanding rather than a measurement of equality.
The first one specifically is just ignorant. Let's increase the number of Lantinos that can get loans. In isolation, the only way to do this is to make more risky loans than you otherwise do. This means more defaults and repossessions. This means the banks have to balance their risks somehow, which means reduced loans to other people on the margins.
They asked an objective financial literacy question and then judged the respondents for giving the textbook correct definition. The world isn't a video game where you can just change one thing in isolation, and "privileged" people who have financial literacy know this.
"The world isn't a video game where you can just change one thing in isolation,"
There are philosophers who would disagree. They claim we have a significant chance of being part of a computer simulation.
"the only way to do this is to make more risky loans than you otherwise do"
When has that ever stopped banks taking chances with other people's money?
To answer your question, never, my friend. See the 2008 mortage crisis for a clear example.
The mortgage crisis was in part xauser by the government "encouraging" risky loans and lessening the theoretical risk to the institutions.
The mortgage crisis was the result of government regulations, not called banks.
We may be in a video game, but even if we were you couldn't change one thing in isolation without a LOT of coding.
"participants were told that white homebuyers received $386.4 billion in mortgage loans the previous year while Latinos had only gotten $12.6 billion."
The right question to ask here would be, how many white homebuyers as opposed to Latino?
"how many white homebuyers as opposed to Latino?"
The two aren't mutually exclusive.
The right question to ask would be, how did the numbers of economically qualified borrowers compare? Because there's nothing wrong at all about refusing to loan to somebody who has a record as a dead beat, or no identifiable source of income, or isn't even legally present in the country.
For too many the rule is "if I am not winning, then I am losing".
As opposed to your fairy land, where billions of dollars just materialize out of thin air, with no deleterious impacts on anybody?
I think you mean to say, for too few.... A able bodied man was given money to invest and buried it, earning zero. When found out, he was immediately thrown out into the street ere there was weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The oldest, best and most scientific study of all, the Holy Bible, referred to this as the Theory of the Dog in the Manger.
Subjectivism, vague language and junk imitation science invariably make freedom from coercion seem like it "would" be a horrible thing if allowed to exist.
"Note that the resources available to whites do not change in any of the scenarios."
Actually they do. the more money is loaned for housing the more houses cost. Yes some of the extra money will go into more supply, but not all of it. Lending extra to other racial groups while keeping the amount lent to whites constant reduces the number of whites who can buy homes or the size of the home they can buy.
I am struck by the willingness to go into this deep analysis to find a wrong done to you. Stop worrying that the next guy getting a better deal than you. It happens all the time and for all kinds of reason. The only outrage is when you see a minority getting sometime.
"Stop pointing out the errors in this study! Its conclusions agree with my preconceptions so it's obviously correct!"
Here are some simple facts normal people understand:
(1) Social status is zero sum, and what people actually strive for is social status, not absolute wealth.
(2) If banks start allocating extra money by ethnicity of the borrower, that is not “equality enhancing”, quite the opposite. Billions of dollars don’t just materialize out of thin air.
Apparently, such simple concepts are too hard to grasp for Berkeley students or Reason “science” reporters.
Fertilizer. Many people wealthy and non-wealth are perfectly happen with their social status and don't need to pull other down. Billions appear all the time when wealthy people want the money so stop worrying. People need to be happy with their own lives and not worrying about others.
Delusions like yours are often the result of being a particularly greedy, status conscious prick yourself.
Let's call this what it truly is ... "social scientists" attempting to confirm their existing belief that white people are mean-spirited and stingy. Classic torturing the data until it confesses to a preexisting belief. See all studies on minimum wage and mask efficacy against covid.
I'm starting to have doubts about the credentials of this libertarian science writer if he does not see the glaring flaws in the concept of the studies.
If Bailey hadn't been slowly drifting to leftward for some time now, the way he lays it out up front that they essentially say "Whites (and some Asians) are privileged and Blacks and Hispanics aren't." would make me think he should blink twice to let us know if we need to call the cops.
But he was still pretty socialist and oppressive even when he was championing The End of Doom, so fuck 'im. He gets what he wanted, I get what I wanted... win-win.
the resources being apportioned among the advantaged participants (mostly white Americans along with some Asians) and the disadvantaged groups (including black Americans, women, and Hispanics)
Poor groups are just as bright and talented as white (and some Asian) groups!
They get to be just as racist as any Klansman *and* grift off of the oppression, win-win!
NGL, kinda shocking to see Reason stoop to publishing this racist crap. They've been wavering from the libertarian standard for years but this is full on Jezebel-tier horseshit.
Fuck you.
Mathematical gibberish.
Remember supply & demand?
If you increase the number of home buyers the cost of homes will go up.
Artificially increasing the buying power of one group ALWAYS changes the buying power of other groups in the real world. Give them money, loans, whatever, and you have upset the natural balance.
There is no way of making it "win-win" because it is inherently biased and unfair
Illegal immigrants and minority should be free to move, live, and work here as long as we're all free not to contribute to the tax base/safety net. Win-win.
Ignore that and you aren't talking about a situation with 'no redistribution', you're talking about a situation with 'no intrinsic or specifically enhanced redistribution'. Which, then the study statement becomes "Privileged people were less compliant when we threatened them with two equally bad options and made them choose while telling them just to ignore the gun in our back pocket."
1. How do you know the white folks selected were "advantaged"?
2. Perhaps the "Advantaged" folks you selected understand that there is no such thing as a free lunch, and that somebody ultimately is going to pay for those extra loans (and defaults).
3. Perhaps the "Advantaged" folks you selected remember the great recession--Caused, largely, by loan programs designed to put minorities into houses.
Dear Gawd, the number of flaws in this "experiment" are pretty amazing.
the resources being apportioned
Yeah, let me stop you right there....
This reminds me of the old joke about an engineer in Wisconsin who reaches mandatory retirement age, but becomes bored sitting around at home. So he goes to a local dairy farm and offers his services to the owner...for free...just to have something to do. The dairy farmer asks him, "That's mighty generous of you, but what would an engineer do on a dairy farm?" The engineer replies, "I'll see if I can't come up with a way to increase your production, reduce costs, etc. All I need is a quiet place to work and a white board to help with my thinking...and I even have my own whiteboard that I'll bring along." The farmer thinks for a moment and can't come up with a downside to such an arrangement, so he agrees to set aside an unused corner of one of the barns as a workspace for the engineer.
A month goes by and one day the engineer tells the farmer, "I've come up with a way to increase your production by 40% while simultaneously decreasing costs by 60%. Round up your hands and meet me in the barn and I'll tell you all about it." The farmer is elated by this news, and promptly rounds everyone up, brings them with him to the engineer's "office" in the barn and says, "Alright, tell us about your idea!" The engineer walks to the empty white board, draws a large circle on it and begins, "First, let's assume a spherical cow of uniform density..."
Remember, in this study, the resources available to the advantaged group do not change in any scenario.. What? Latinos appear to be getting no income verification loans and will receive money that will probably be printed by the government or borrowed from China, and could be properly invested with the advantaged group (whatever that even means) and provide a return on investment without risking another 2007 crash. This study reads like a text book case of reverse racism.
Nothing is being taken from the resources currently enjoyed by the advantaged, but the disadvantaged are being awarded a higher proportion of the newly available resources.
This is redistribution.
You're not even 'science-adjacent' anymore, are ya, Ron?
If banks came up with an extra $7B with equal demand for mortgages, then the cost for those mortgages would tend to go down. This "experiment" prevents white people from benefiting from the decreased costs. Hence, redistribution.
I’m OK with increasing the amount loaned to Latinos or anyone else, so long as the interest rate charged is commensurate with their credit-worthiness.