Two Federal Judges Say New York's Presumptive Prohibition of Guns on Private Property Is Unconstitutional
The state's ban applies unless the property owner posts a sign allowing firearms or otherwise gives "express consent."

After the Supreme Court upheld the right to bear arms last June, New York legislators perversely responded by imposing sweeping new restrictions on public possession of guns, banning them from a long list of locations. The broadest of those categories was "private property," including businesses as well as residences, where carry permit holders were forbidden to bring guns unless the owner had posted "clear and conspicuous signage" allowing them or had "otherwise given express consent."
Yesterday a federal judge issued a preliminary injunction against enforcement of that provision, which had already been blocked by another judge. Both judges said New York had failed to show that the private property rule was "consistent with this Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation." That is the constitutional test prescribed by the Supreme Court's June 23 ruling in New York State Rifle and Pistol Association v. Bruen, which upheld the right to carry guns in public for self-defense and overturned New York's requirement that residents show "proper cause" to exercise that right.
New York's catch-all "private property" exclusion, which New Jersey legislators have copied, is one of many restrictions that U.S. District Judge Glenn T. Suddaby deemed unconstitutional in Antonyuk v. Hochul. It is the focus of the decision that U.S. District Judge John L. Sinatra Jr. issued yesterday in Christian v. Nigrelli, and it vividly illustrates how determined anti-gun legislators are to defy Bruen.
The plaintiffs in Christian include the Firearms Policy Coalition and the Second Amendment Foundation. The lead plaintiff is Brett Christian, an Erie County resident who has a carry permit but cannot make much use of it because New York has made it a felony for him to possess a handgun in many places he routinely visits. Before that law was enacted, Sinatra notes, Christian "would typically bring [his] firearm with [him] on private property open to the public, including weekly visits to gas stations and monthly visits to hardware stores." That is no longer allowed.
When Christian is "driving or running errands," he is "'unable to take any
bathroom breaks,' pick up food, or purchase gas while carrying his firearm." He
has to "disable and store" his handgun before driving or walking into a parking lot,
which means that he sometimes must "stop carrying for self-defense" before he
"can get physically close enough to see if any 'clear and conspicuous signage' exists." Because New York's law requires Christian to "constantly disarm" while engaged in quotidian activities, he is "left without the ability to defend" himself and is "suffering diminished personal safety on a frequent and ongoing basis."
That situation is not merely inconvenient. It makes a mockery of the right that the Supreme Court upheld in Bruen. While hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers are notionally allowed to carry concealed handguns for self-defense, the state has made it difficult or impossible for them to actually do that without risking prosecution.
New York "argues that private property owners have always had the right
to exclude others from their property and [therefore] may exclude those carrying
concealed handguns," Sinatra writes. "But that right has always been one
belonging to the private property owner—not to the State….Property owners indeed have the right to exclude. But the state may not unilaterally exercise that right and, thereby, interfere with the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens who seek to carry for self-defense outside of their own homes."
As Sinatra sees it, the Second Amendment requires a default rule that guns are allowed on private property unless the owner says otherwise—the opposite of the rule that New York has established. That choice, New York argues, is consistent with the historical understanding of the right to bear arms. To support that claim, it cites eight colonial or state laws enacted in the 18th and 19th centuries that restricted gun possession on private property.
Suddaby addressed those purported analogs when he issued a preliminary injunction against several provisions of New York's law, including the private property exclusion, on November 7. He noted that "six of these eight laws appear to be what are called 'anti-poaching laws,' aimed at preventing hunters (sometimes only hunters who are convicted criminals) from taking game off of other people's lands (usually enclosed) without the owner's permission, which was a pernicious problem at the time." He added that "barring some people from openly carrying rifles on other people's farms and lands in 19th century America is hardly analogous to barring all license holders from carrying concealed handguns in virtually every commercial building now."
Suddaby said just two of the eight laws cited by New York "may fairly be characterized as being anything more than mere anti-poaching laws." A 1771 New Jersey law prohibited the carrying of "any gun" on another person's "lands" without the owner's "permission in writing." An 1865 Louisiana law barred people from "carrying fire-arms on the premises or plantations of any citizen" without "the consent of the owner or proprietor."
Suddaby did not think those two examples were sufficient to meet the historical test established by Bruen. "Even if these two lonely state laws could somehow be reasonably viewed as evidencing an established tradition (which the Court doubts they could)," he wrote, "they cannot be reasonably viewed as evidencing a representative one." He noted that New Jersey and Louisiana together accounted for 4.2 percent of the national population in 1870.
For many businesses, Suddaby noted, it is impractical to "give express consent to each license holder on their doorstep other than by posting a sign containing a controversial message that must (by definition) be visible to all persons passing by (including potential 'anti-gun' customers)." One of the plaintiffs in Antonyuk, for example, "runs a small hotel/bed and breakfast for guests and faces a loss of patronage" by "gun owners who wish to travel lawfully with their firearms if he does not post a sign." A sign is the only feasible way to meet New York's requirement because "it is entirely impractical to provide person-by-person 'express consent' to each individual who stops by." At the same time, such a sign is apt to alienate other potential customers.
Suddaby thinks that quandary raises a serious First Amendment issue because it arguably amounts to government-compelled speech. He concluded that the plaintiffs had "a strong likelihood of success" on that claim.
Suddaby said New York's private property rule "appears to be a thinly disguised version" of a policy the Supreme Court explicitly rejected in Bruen. In that case, New York argued that "'sensitive places' where the government may lawfully disarm law-abiding citizens include all 'places where people typically congregate and where law-enforcement and other public-safety professionals are presumptively available.'" The Court objected that "expanding the category of 'sensitive places' simply to all places of public congregation that are not isolated from law enforcement defines the category of 'sensitive places' far too broadly."
Like Suddaby, Sinatra emphasizes the broad scope of New York's private property rule. "The vast majority of land in New York is held privately, and it encompasses homes, farms, businesses, factories, vacant land, hotels, parking lots and garages, grocery stores, pharmacies, medical offices, hospitals, cemeteries, malls, sports and entertainment venues, and so on," he writes. "These are places that people, exercising their rights, frequent every day when they move around outside their homes. The exclusion here makes all of these places presumptively off limits, backed up by the threat of prison. The Nation's historical traditions have not countenanced such an incursion into the right to keep and bear arms across all varieties of private property."
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"Shall not be infringed".
Literally every law on the NY books regarding guns is unconstitutional.
Beyond the obvious Federal, and perhaps incorporated to the states, injunction of the 2nd Amendment, the entire NY ban concept is the exact inverse of the principle of personal liberty with limited subjects of law and regulation.... the default is always in favor of individual rights, except for specific cases.
Our republican constitution limits what government may legislate and regulate, but the default is Liberty!
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Democrats run NY. And democrats only care about the law when it benefits them or can be used against their enemies (American citizens). They don’t consider laws to apply to themselves.
Practical effect of this injunction?
How many divisions does this federal judge have?
I'm pretty sure the Big Club doesn't like him. How else explain some pinstriped protocol officer generating a judge an official hearing nameplate that starts with "Mr."?
New York will just try to be cute again and pass another law that is minisculely more permissive but isn't really forcing more lawsuits. Rinse and repeat.
The underlying problem is the democrat party in NY.
Either a new set of rules or payouts of taxpayer money when they enforce this despite the injunction.
in a free state only government agents should have guns. It's just 'common' sense. Don;t you want to be free?
It's amazing that in the past (meaning prior to the 20th century) even most autocratic governments recognized that owning weapons was a fundamental liberty. Hell, the Romans didn't even routinely disarm conquered people. It was only when tyrannical/collectivists ideologies became more prevalent towards the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century that disarming citizens became mainstream ideology. Before this, people rightly saw disarming citizens as a sign of impending tyranny.
It was only when tyrannical/collectivists ideologies became more prevalent towards the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century that disarming citizens became mainstream ideology.
That is because of progressive ideology that, rather than having a healthy distrust for power, trusts that those with power know best.
… left without the ability to defend" himself.
That’s the whole idea
Without the presumption of guns not allowed on private property, the mall owner who doesn't want concealed weapons in his mall has to post signs that guns are not allowed at every entrance if they want to avoid shooting incidents. As a result, gun nuts are going to show up and protest at all the mall entrances and some nut is going to target the mall as it's identified itself as a woke place full of freedom-haters.
It's a lose-lose proposition. Might as well just allow open carry of AR15s in the mall. That's the way this country is going. All AR15s, all the time, everywhere. Except at the Supreme Court, prisons and government institutions, of course. The judges protect their own.
Yeah, just terrible how that keeps happening in all the states that don't have New York's law. Oh, wait ...
Aw poor totalitarian POS, too stupid to realize someone who would shoot up a mall will not be stopped by a sign, so evil he demands the nearest reaction of any force to stop it be miles away so the bodies can pile up.
All AR15s, all the time, everywhere.
Sounds good to me. There would be no more mass shootings, since anyone who tried would be killed before they could shoot three people.
An armed society is a polite society.
Personal force fields would also eliminate most of these problems.
The slow blade penetrates the shield.
Triple super secret force fields should do the trick.
Also, what happens when some guy has a laser sight?
"Without the presumption of guns not allowed on private property, the mall owner who doesn’t want concealed weapons in his mall has to post signs that guns are not allowed at every entrance if they want to avoid shooting incidents..."
Sarc or stupidity?
“the mall owner who doesn’t want concealed weapons in his mall has to post signs that guns are not allowed at every entrance if they want to avoid shooting incidents.”
You mean, just like they do now?
Oppressive to the max!
A Walmart manager just killed 6 people in the Walmart with a pistol. Neither he nor his victims are known to be gay or bi or trans. I don't think a sign saying "no guns at Walmart please" would have worked.
No laws will prevent that sort of lunacy.
But other armed customers could have stopped him sooner.
It was in the break room, so it would probably have to have been another armed employee.
To be fair, for decades, WalMart has been the essence of fairness and rationality in MANDATING to their managers that firearms carry legal in their state be honored, at least until 2019 when they (banned? strongly discouraged?) open carry only. (Don't ask me to explain why apparently not a single El Paso customer was armed.)
Won’t see much about this, since the shooter was Black and didn’t use an “assault rifle “.
“Oppressed man fails in valiant attempt to overturn white supremacy.”
If New York legislators ignored the Supreme Court, what makes you think they'll obey two federal judges? Especially since Hochul was just elected governor proving the voters in New York* are in favor of doing away with the Constitution and going straight to electing an emperor?
*Also the voters in Michigan, Minnesota, Oregon, Arizona, and I don't know where all else.
We’ll, the Supreme Court is just a bunch of Catholic MAGAS, per The NY Times and Washington Post, so what do you expect?
Actually, not in AZ. Again, the level of election fraud appears to exceed 200k - already, while some of the Dem victory margins were again in the 10-20k range.
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You don't need a gun...
The Nazi's will take care of you...
Something about a chamber of free showers.
Your belongings will be delivered to you at the camps!
Taureau merde. Excuse my French.
Eugene Volokh (cited approvingly in Heller), had a similar article yesterday:
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/11/22/court-blocks-n-y-s-requirement-of-express-owner-permission-to-carry-guns-on-private-property/
My problem there, as well as here, is that the law sweeps far too broadly, and they should have rejected it under Strict Scrutiny. If they had banned guns in banks (like NV effectively does in casinos), that could be argued to be narrowly tailored to address a compelling state interest. But open fields? Gas stations? Not even close.
I thought that Bruen swept away all the "scrutiny" tests in favor of the "history" test.
Not mentioned in the article is that EVERY sign government requires business owners to post on their premises is a free-speech violation in the same way that license plate slogans are compelled speech if you don't happen to agree with the motto.
This is why provisions MUST BE MADE where politicians who are proven to VIOLATE our CONSTITUIONAL RIGHTS by virtue of voting for the passage of such laws are summarily sentenced to Federal PRISON.
In this case, virtually every democrat politician, and more than half of the republican politicians would be in prison.
Just think of all those senators and representatives and governors and some presidents all rotting away in prison cells 🙂
Just think of all the vacant seats we could fill with people who would "do better!"
I’m pretty sure they would “do better” if they knew they are going to prison if they violate the law (constitution) of the land.
You just don't want to admit that I have a really really good idea.
Um, no… I LIKED your idea.
I’m fond of saying that one of the major faults of the constitution (as well as pretty much every federal statute ever written) is that the portions that forbid government officials from doing things never seem to be accompanied by mandatory penalties for doing those things, as opposed to laws that forbid you and me.
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"When Christian is "driving or running errands," he is "'unable to take any bathroom breaks,' pick up food, or purchase gas while carrying his firearm." He has to "disable and store" his handgun before driving or walking into a parking lot, which means that he sometimes must "stop carrying for self-defense" before he "can get physically close enough to see if any 'clear and conspicuous signage' exists."
And this has always been the raison d'être behind gun-free zones.
Have to stop at the Post Office? Disarm. The DMV? Disarm. Your kid's school? DIsarm. Thugs stake out places like that, they know guns get left in cars, ripe for the picking.
Maybe you have no sense of how much of a city becomes "felon territory" to you just from existing "common-sense" gun-free zones. These maps may surprise you:
https://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones.htm
Do you rely on "reciprocity" when you travel out of state? Surprise -- the federal school zone exception is only for that state's own permits! Welcome to innocent felonhood.
Gun-free zones delenda est.
Thugs stake out places like that, they know guns get left in cars, ripe for the picking.
I think it is most likely that the place that thugs stake out is in your head.
Sorry, but you happen to have the privilege of talking to someone who actually had a firearm stolen from his car (and his car lock punched) because he was forced to leave it inside instead of taking it into the restaurant with him where it could have been kept safe. So go tell it to the Marines.
The law seems basically sound to me, as it protects the property owner's personal right of self defense. It may need a tweak, since the requirement to post permission can ostensibly violate the carrier's right of self defense.
The right to bear arms always has to coexist with the 4th Amendment at the place where the two meet -- the doorway.
The purpose of this law is to nullify Bruen and to render the right to carry a firearm on ones person void.
Private property owners themselves can put ip a sign informing gun owners that their weapons are not welcome. It is not for any government to decide that for them
Obviously not Obama appointees, but don't worry they will judge shop for one.
Two Federal Judges Say New York’s Laws Are All Unconstitutional
(total disinformation, but rated mostly true!)
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