When Karl Marx Made the Case for Capitalism
In barely a century, capitalism led to more productivity "than have all preceding generations together," Marx and Friedrich Engels argued.

In November 1864, Karl Marx wrote a letter congratulating President Abraham Lincoln on his reelection to the White House. "From the commencement of the titanic American strife the workingmen of England felt instinctively that the star-spangled banner carried the destiny of their class," Marx declared. He was therefore thrilled by the news that Lincoln would continue "to lead his country through the matchless struggle for the rescue of an enchained race and the reconstruction of a social world."
That reconstructed social world did not just involve a Union victory in the Civil War. What Marx had in mind was the triumph of the North's free labor system and the accompanying spread of Northern capitalism throughout the would-be Confederate States of America.
If the idea of Marx welcoming the spread of capitalism comes as a surprise, that's because you don't know Marx. The free market economist Joseph Schumpeter famously likened capitalism to a "gale of creative destruction." But Marx actually said something similar in The Communist Manifesto, co-written with Friedrich Engels in 1848.
In barely a century, they wrote, capitalism "has created more massive and more colossal productive forces than have all preceding generations together." It has "rescued a considerable part of the population from the idiocy of rural life" and "wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal" arrangements. "All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions are swept away," and "all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air."
According to Marx, history unfolded in a grand series of stages, each defined by its dominant mode of economic production and each specifically arising to replace the one that preceded it. "In broad outlines," he wrote in the preface to A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy, "ancient, feudal, and modern bourgeois modes of production can be designated as progressive epochs in the economic formation of society." Capitalism, in other words, was a historically necessary step in human progress.
The great revolutionary forces unleashed by capitalism, Marx thought, would in turn form and shape a self-aware proletariat class that would ultimately lead humanity into a glorious communist future. But that would happen only after capitalism had worked its magic. "No social order ever perishes," Marx maintained, "before all the productive forces for which there is room in it have developed."
That is why Marx cheered for Lincoln and the Union. He saw the slaveholding South as a feudalistic, pre-capitalist society in serious need of creative destruction. Ironically, that Marxist interpretation of the Civil War proved to be too much to swallow for one of the most influential Marxist historians of the 20th century.
'Unfettered Expansion'
Eugene Genovese was practically born into the American left. His father, a Brooklyn dockworker, "hated the bosses," as the son put it, and cheered the New Deal. At the age of 15, Genovese joined the American Communist Party. In 1965, at a Vietnam War teach-in at Rutgers University, Genovese, then a professor in the history department, shocked friend and foe alike by announcing that he "welcomed" a Viet Cong victory.
In 1972, Genovese published the book that made his name. Roll, Jordan, Roll: The World the Slaves Made won the prestigious Bancroft Prize and earned rave reviews in both scholarly and popular outlets. It remains widely read on college campuses and continues to influence the field of American history. In the summer of 2020, The New York Times listed Roll, Jordan, Roll as one of the handful of books that everybody should read to better understand "the recent wave of countrywide protests" against racism and police brutality. "With roots in Marxist theory," the Times noted, Roll, Jordan, Roll "was among the first to look at enslaved people as agents—not as mere 'slaves,' but as human beings with their own ideas, culture, and, above all, strategies of resistance." The newspaper added: "Even now, few books can provide a comparable level of insight and moral clarity into the centuries of American slavery."
What the Times writer did not tell his readers was that Genovese ultimately rejected Marx in the 1980s and became a sort of right-wing anti-capitalist. Genovese devoted the final decades of his scholarly career to writing sympathetically, even admiringly, about the slaveholders and their "pre-bourgeois" ideology. "The northern victory in 1865," Genovese wrote in The Southern Tradition: The Achievements and Limitations of an American Conservatism (1994), "sanctified northern institutions and intentions, which included the unfettered expansion of a bourgeois world view and the suppression of alternate visions of social order." Put differently, Genovese came to lament the loss of the Old South's illiberal social order, a loss that was both brought about and hastened (just as Marx wanted) by the spread of capitalism.
It was here where Genovese broke with Marx. "In the Old South," Genovese wrote, approvingly, in The Southern Tradition, "outstanding political and intellectual figures denounced capitalism ('the free-labor system') as a brutal, immoral, irresponsible wage-slavery in which the masters of capital exploited and impoverished their workers without assuming responsibility for them."
The slaveholders, Genovese wrote in The World the Slaveholders Made (1969), believed "that exploitation and class stratification were inevitable and that slavery, with its principle of responsibility of one man for another, led to less hardship and despair than capitalism, with its principle of every man for himself, for at least the [enslaved] had a community to appeal to other than one based on a cash nexus."
Many slaveholders did make such arguments. Speaking on the floor of the U.S. Senate in 1850, for example, Jefferson Davis (D–Miss.) praised slavery's "domestic character and strictly patriarchal relations," scoffing at "that cruelty which is made the great charge against it by those who know nothing of it, and which, I will passingly say, probably exists to a smaller extent [in slavery] than in any other relation of labor to capital."
"Your whole class of manual laborers," Sen. James Hammond (D–S.C.) told his northern colleagues in 1858, "are slaves. The difference between us is, that our slaves are hired for life and well compensated; there is no starvation, no begging, no want of employment among our people." By contrast, Hammond asserted, "yours are hired by the day, not cared for, and scantily compensated, which may be proved in the most deplorable manner, at any hour, in any street in any of your large towns."
Likewise, the Virginia secessionist Edmund Ruffin, in his 1857 book The Political Economy of Slavery, declared that "extreme want and destitution, the competition for sustenance, class-slavery of labor to capital, and lastly pauper slavery, are all the incidents and necessary results of free society, and 'free labor.'" Ruffin added: "So far as their facts and their reasoning go, and in their main doctrines, the socialists are right."
Genovese, an ex-socialist who always remained deeply hostile to capitalism, apparently found himself drawn to such arguments. The "happy dream" of the "free marketeers," Genovese would say, "constitutes my own private nightmare." In effect, Genovese concluded that Marx was too soft on the capitalists; far more to Genovese's taste was the cold-eyed anti-capitalism of "the master class."
'Equal Freedom'
On November 9, 1882, a distinguished group of scholars, politicians, business leaders, and journalists gathered in the celebrated New York City restaurant Delmonico's to honor the English political philosopher and evolutionary theorist Herbert Spencer, who was concluding his first grand tour of the United States. The attendees included Spencer himself, future New York Mayor Abram Hewitt, industrialist Andrew Carnegie, and Yale paleontologist Othniel Charles Marsh, the discoverer of numerous fossilized dinosaurs. Among the featured speakers was former Missouri senator and U.S. interior secretary Carl Schurz, who began by recalling "some pleasant memories" from his service as a Union general during the Civil War.
"Nineteen years ago, after the battle of Missionary Ridge," Schurz told the audience, he was camped out with his command near Chattanooga, Tennessee, with only a handful of supplies to protect him from the winter cold. "But I had Herbert Spencer's 'Social Statics' with me," Schurz declared, which "I read by the light of a tallow-candle."
Published in 1851, Social Statics was Spencer's second book and first big hit. In it, he laid out what he called his law of equal freedom, a sweepingly libertarian credo: "Every man has freedom to do all that he wills, provided that he infringes not the equal freedom of any other man." As Schurz told the assembled worthies at Delmonico's that night, "If the people of the South had well studied and thoroughly digested that book, there would never have been any war for the preservation of slavery."
Had Marx been present at Delmonico's, he might have nodded right along with that praise for the work of his otherwise intellectual adversary. Like Spencer, Marx not only welcomed capitalism's creative destruction of feudalism and slavery; he recognized and even championed capitalism's essential role in human advancement. With free labor on the march, Marx argued in his 1861 essay "The North American Civil War," the peculiar institution faced ultimate extinction "according to economic law."
That's one Marxist teaching the anti-capitalists of the left and right would do well to take to heart.
This article originally appeared in print under the headline "When Karl Marx Made the Case for Capitalism."
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Marx making the case for capitalism might sound strange to some people.
Not me though. I visit the Reason.com comment section. Where someone named "American Socia1ist" constantly brags about how rich he is, promotes the Charles Koch position on immigration over the Bernie Sanders one, and ranks California as the best state because its $1,000-per-plate restaurants are totally worth dodging homeless people's human waste on the street.
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Can someone please make a commercial and explain to the young, and old, socialists what they don't know? So many believe that government can make you rich. It enriches the politicians, but I have yet to see handouts make anyone rich. Nothing in this world is free. Bernie Sanders tapped into the un and under educated. If they actually learned to read a book on economics, they would tell Bernie to take a hike.
People familiar with a subject laugh at how poorly a media site or reporter covers the topic, yet have blind faith when they cover unfamiliar topics. Took me a long time to recognize it.
May as well applaud Marx for knowing where the sun rises.
I don't know enough about his writings to know where capitalism fit into his parade of social stages on the way to proletariat paradise. Don't care. Doesn't matter. He got so much so spectacularly wrong that applauding a few places where his errors cancelled each other out is like looking for correct words typed out by those monkeys.
"I don’t know enough about his writings to know where capitalism fit into his parade of social stages on the way to proletariat paradise."
The article explains this. Primitive, feudal, capitalist, communist.
That’s nice. Why would I believe a short article is an accurate summary of several full size books? Why should I trust you, a known liar and dissembler, to accurately summarize a short summary of several books? Your grasp on reality and interpretation of reality is too dismal to rely on.
ETA to emphasize that the very fact that you think that one small point had anything to do with my main point shows your love of nitpicking and dissembling to dodge the bigger picture.
There's nothing stopping you from consulting sources you trust and finding out for yourself.
One thing you statists fail to comprehend is that resources are limited. There's an opportunity cost of researching details of Marx which don't interest me.
You statists also assume everybody else shares your opinions and wants.
There have been literally thousands of books, articles, classes, probably a miniseries or two, and maybe even a Ken Burns film. There has to be at least one of them that is sufficiently not-statist for you to read. And libraries are free, so costs are zero.
He said opportunity cost, not what was in his pocket.
Besides, we have a hundred years of applied marxism to draw our conclusions from.
Fair point. I missed that.
Ken Burns is a huge leftist. So he’s going to be fairly pro global Marxism. And he IS statist, as he is largely funded by the state
The comments about miniseries and Ken Burns were snark, not a serious statement.
His position of "I think you're wrong, but I don't have any knowledge and won't take the time to gain it, but here's a grossly oversimplified reason why my beliefs are right and you're a bad person anyway." is as vapid as it is self-impressed.
Opportunity cost includes time
Thomas Sowell’s “Marxism” is excellent
A few things thing Sowell pointed out about Marx is that he wrote megalomaniacal poetry and not only renounced the Jewish religion, but also his Jewish ethnicity and Marx was vehemently racist. Marx referred to fellow Socialist Ferdinand LaSalle as "the Jewish Ni@@er LaSalle."
Needless to say, this kind of belies what Damon Root is saying about Marx supporting the end of American slavery.
A more precise reading of Marx is that when he's talking about the effects of Capitalism on Feudal Agrarian society such as in the Slave States, he's being strictly descriptive of the Thesis and Antithesis clashing to form the Synthesis of Hegelian Historical Necessity.
Marx is not praising the phenomenon of the end of slavery except insofar as it eventually cumulates in the Class Struggle of Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie and the Communist Paradise, which as Twentieth Century history reveals, just substitutes Chattel Slavery with Systematic Slavery.
Give me Groucho, Chico, Harpo, Zeppo, and Stretch over Karl any day! 🙂
You know what other German revealed his megalomania through crappy-ass writing and anti-Semitic rants?
And seized the means of production?
And kvetched incessantly about the Bourgeoisie? (And would HATE my choice of verb there—evidently both of them?)
This is not something where Marx was 'right' about this but 'wrong' about that. Capitalism is almost defined in Marxism as a system that creates a ton of 'surplus value' but said value is paid to the owners of the means of production rather than to the creators of said value. Maybe the Marxian emphasis is on the latter part (exploitation) but no surplus value no exploitation
This has always been the most intriguing aspect of Marx, to me. Marxism was proposed as the next step in economics, much like Muslims and Mormons built their holy books on the Old amd New Testaments or early Christians built their holy days on the Pagan calendar.
Even the most capitalist-seeming system, the stock market, can be seen as a Marxist entity since ownership of the means of production was one of the major goals of Marxism.
Marxism and the socialist theories that followed it are untenable, stagnating, and disastrous economic systems. That doesn't change the fact that in a largely pre-capitalist world Marx advocated for the first step (the free market and free labor power of capitalism) on the path to his utopian dream.
It's always fascinated me that he could be so right and so wrong about capitalism at the same time.
It’s always fascinated me that he could be so right and so wrong about capitalism at the same time.
He was right in his recognition of what had happened and wrong in his prediction of what was going to happen.
Read the book The Signal and The Noise.
http://library.lol/main/82E0909ED16620739606C74F56F5DC80
There's an amusing section analyzing the predictions of panelists in The Capital Gang. They all perform abominably.
There's an interesting prediction by Engels made in 1888 about the coming conflagration in Europe, something essentially nobody saw coming and arguably Capitalism's most significant contribution to the 20th Century:
"Eight to ten million soldiers will massacre one another and in doing so devour the whole of Europe until they have stripped it barer than any swarm of locusts has ever done.”
Capitalism caused the two world wars?
Dude, capitalism caused all bad stuff everywhere. Just like Marx told us, we will never be truly happy until we crush liberty and submit to the state/mob.
All those fences and walls are to keep the proles OUT of the commie paradise! If it weren't for the fences, North Korea would be overrun with migrants from the south.
Ask trueman.
"Dude, capitalism caused all bad stuff everywhere."
Who said WWI was bad? It was the working classes that were slaughtered. The capitalists made out like bandits.
Because working people don't have capital. You know all those evil rags to riches stories? Poor immigrants who came over and made it rich at the turn of the century? They actually didn't work. They all had factories and gold bars in their suitcases.
"Poor immigrants who came over and made it rich at the turn of the century?"
Not just the turn of the century, but years before too. Engels would have been aware of it. The poor immigrants and those they left behind would have known too. This wasn't a prediction. WWI and its ferocity were the prediction. I think it was correct too, at any rate better than the esteemed prognosticators of the Capital Gang.
I thought they succeeded through democrat assistance programs. Is this not true?
Yeah, like, everyone should just SHARE, man.
"Capitalism caused the two world wars?"
And starved millions upon millions of innocent people in Russia, China and Ukraine!
Ask trueman.
Seems like it was more about monarchies not wanting to let go of a social order that was working nicely ... for them.
All major participants had capitalist economic systems, private property, etc.
Then Lenin came to power, and there was no more mass killing.
Engels wouldn't have been surprised. He foresaw the war and all its attendant tragedies: famine, plague, and civil unrest.
Because Top Men (Marxists of course) weren’t running everything. So the Marxism wasn’t implemented correctly. But I swear, Darth Brandon and his puppeteers totally have it dialed in this time. Look at how grea the economy is running. Plus the global calm and tranquility.
"Capitalism caused the two world wars?" No.
While all the countries fighting WWI had a more or less capitalist economy, when you look at who made the decisions that started the war, it was mostly the remnants of feudalism called emperors. The six nations that originally squared off were ruled by three Caesars (the Tsar of Russia and the Kaisers of Germany and Austro-Hungary), a Sultan, a parliament with a figurehead King (the UK), and only one purely democratic nation (France). The conflict started when a Serbian assassinated the heir to the Kaiser of Austro-Hungary, then spread to the Tsar (protecting Serbia), Germany (one Kaiser protecting the other), France (protecting the Tsar from the Kaisers), and finally the UK (protecting Belgium from the Germans using it as an invasion route against France) and the Sultan. Prime ministers acted pretty much the same as emperors, but it started among the emperors...
WWII was obviously not started by capitalists, but by two dictators (Mussolini and Hitler) espousing a mystical nationalist version of Socialism, and a ruling council in Japan which somehow took feudalism and warped it to greatly resemble Nazism.
Plenty of writers saw massive war coming, and the size of the armies. None foresaw the massive deaths from machine guns, artillery, and chemical warfare.
You idiots love to blame capitalism for everything bad that happened, even when it was a reaction to capitalism's success in lifting billions out of poverty while socialism was murdering 100 million.
If you statists had your way, the world would still be mired in feudal poverty.
Dude, once you are on the communal/communist work farm you will wish for feudal poverty.
You're right, my apologies to the feudal fans 🙂 Feudal overlords at least understood how vital peasants were; communists never have.
"None foresaw the massive deaths from machine guns, artillery, and chemical warfare."
Engels must have foreseen it. Massive deaths were already occurring in the colonial wars in Africa. WWI showed what happens when both sides are armed with the same weapons - doubly massive death.
No. No one foresaw massive deaths from machine guns, artillery, and chemical warfare because those hadn't been invented yet.
Did Engels foresee the scale of death in WW II?
Did he foresee 100 million murders by socialists using the banalities of starvation and gulags and pistol executions?
Why are you asking me these questions? You already indicated you don't find me a credible source of information yet you persist in questioning me. Maybe there's a more productive way you could manage your time.
Yet you persist with your inane and unsupportable statements.
"Yet you persist with your inane and unsupportable statements."
Maybe you can verify Engels' predictions yourself. Find a source you feel you can trust. Download The Signal and the Noise and if you want to verify the claims about The Capital Gang. If you prefer to remain in ignorance and doubt, I'm not surprised. You're an intellectual coward and clown, Ted AKA Teddy Salad, CIA/US Ballet Force, just like Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf.
Capitalism he,PS prevent wars, not start them. We likely would have had it out with China already without a global market economy.
There’s nothing more deadly than a butthurt peasant given a gun, a hat, and shoulderboards.
"from machine guns, artillery, and chemical warfare because those hadn’t been invented yet"
Macine guns: "In 1832, a machine capable of firing 500 rifle shots a minute was devised by Hamel, a French mechanic"
Artillary: "Production started in 1855 at the Elswick Ordnance Company and the Royal Arsenal at Woolwich, and the outcome was the revolutionary Armstrong Gun, which marked the birth of modern artillery."
Chemical warfare: "The first recorded modern proposal for the use of chemical warfare was made by Lyon Playfair, Secretary of the Science and Art Department, in 1854 during the Crimean War."
Friedrich Engels: b. 1820 - d. 1895
So by 1855 machine guns, artillery, chemical warfare, and Engels all existed. But he died 20 years before World War I started, so it was an impressive prediction.
Trying to marginalize him by saying he didn't predict the death toll in World War II, which started 50 years after he died, seems like weak tea.
Trying to put all of the deaths (regardless of how many people are aimed to have died) that were caused by socialist governments, Communist governments (for the difference, see https://www.history.com/news/socialism-communism-differences), and every other Marxist-derivative governments onto two men seems like a huge reach.
The fact that the scale of death in Marxist-inspired authortarian regimes and non-Marxist authoritarian (like military juntas or theocracies) is comparable would indicate that it is aboutj authoritarian regimes as much as it is about the political ideology behind them. Russia isn't a Communist country, but Putin does a pretty good job of jailing and killing his own people.
Marxism/socialism/Communism/Leninism/Stalinism/Maoism/etc. is a terrible economic system. It has been shown to be a dead end and vastly inferior to free market capitalism.
But that doesn't mean that Marx and Engels aren't fascinating. It doesn't eliminate the interesting details of how they believed Marxism would come to dominate. It doesn't change the fact that they were very intelligent, insightful, and intriguing thinkers, even if their faith in the power of socialism to supplant capitalism was misplaced.
I always wondered why they felt that the radical step of leaving capitalism behind would happen. Capitalism, as it existed in the early Industrial Revolution, was a brutal system. But they admired and identified its strengths and benefits. Why didn't they predict that reforms would come that allowed the power of capitalism to shine while the abuses and excesses were reigned in? I never heard a good explanation.
It may just have been that once they built their ideas out, they couldn't stop defending them. It's so common throughout history that it is a trope: hubris bringing a great person to ruin.
Nietzsche predicted WW1 and 2, as well as the communists killing millions trying to bring about their idea of a better world for everyone.
"He was right in his recognition of what had happened and wrong in his prediction of what was going to happen."
Yup. That was my thought as well, at least vis-a-vis capitalism giving way to Marxism.
Marx isn't intreguing at all. He was an upper middle class academic who wanted to overthrow the upper class and replace them with himself as the dictator.
'He was therefore thrilled by the news that Lincoln would continue "to lead his country through the matchless struggle for the rescue of an enchained race and the reconstruction of a social world."'
' It has "rescued a considerable part of the population from the idiocy of rural life" and "wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal" arrangements.'
Who knew that Marx was leading the woke urban hipster movement?
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That made me laugh out loud. Literally. My partner looked at me funny.
"Genovese came to lament the loss of the Old South's illiberal social order"
I thought it was the South that were the liberals, at least in trade policy, favoring free trade, while the North was protectionist. The South produced cotton and tobacco, while the North produced manufactured goods competing with power houses of Europe.
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
"Spouting nonsense is an end in itself."
Ok, interesting read from a historical perspective, but the underlying premise is a bit underwhelming. Did you know that people you have core disagreements with actually said some agreeable things? Marx WANTED the rise of capitalism! Hitler believed in GRAVITY!
I guess we should be happy that Marx recognized the importance of capitalism and free markets in freeing under-classes from the aristocracy of Old Europe (and its descendents in the American South). I mean, pretty much anyone could see that by the time he was writing Das Kapital.
But what has that done for the reader other than praise Marx for noting that water is wet? It shouldn't need to be said, but the problem with Marx was not that he wanted people "free" of classism. The problem was that the entire basis of his sociological screed, Das Kapital, hinged on the Labor Theory of Value which, by the 1860s, was largely falsified on its face by scholarly work on Marginal Theory at the turn of the century 50 - 60 years earlier.
Now that might be an interesting story- how bad fundamental theories can nevertheless explain real phenomena and lead people down the wrong path. But Mr Root doesn't go there. Instead, I suppose, he is content to tell us Marx got some stuff right, and leave it at that. Why? I can only guess that it is because Root's article isn't about Free Minds or Free Markets, but about attacking tribal narratives, because he goes on to survey a bunch of other prominent figures in order to BLOW OUR MINDS about what they really thought.
"What the Times writer did not tell his readers was that Genovese ultimately rejected Marx in the 1980s and became a sort of right-wing anti-capitalist."
Riiiiiiight. I've seen this critique before. The idea that Genovese was anything we'd recognize as Right Wing today is bizarre. That would be like saying Kanye West's grab bag of poorly thought lunacy makes him Right Wing. Genovese became a Catholic, and so rooted a bunch of his criticism of capitalism in religious notions of sin. As we all know, Catholicism is and always has been the face of the American Right. Oh, he is also "Right wing" because he would later support the paternalistic anti-capitalism of the American southern aristocracy (The same paternalistic aristocracy that supported paternalistic busybodies like Woodrow WIlson and FDR).
But this is the intellectual mess you find yourself in when you lose your principled focus and get wrapped up by tribal politics. Over the past 20 years, I have seen Reason- and many Libertarians in general- descend from a defender of Free Minds and Free Markets to being more concerned with riding popular waves. Rather than mounting a defense of freedom, they merely criticize or support people who happen to be doing the right or wrong thing at any given time. That's how you get articles above that can glowingly quote Marx only by ignoring his fundamental flaws. It is how you get quibbles about The Science! (TM) rather than forceful condemnation of lockdown theory.
I am sure the Reason staff are concerned about their traffic reduction since Trump left office. They can no longer capitalize on his Lightning Rod ability to bring in readers to scream about politics. But the answer is not to try and focus on other individuals in an effort to find a new lightning rod. The answer is to get back to basics. Stop focusing on historical and present time non-libertarians, and instead try to actually shape the minds of tomorrow's historical figures.
Thanks for that well-developed rant which has apparently been stewing for a while from the hints I've seen before.
Reason really needs to get out of DC. They have lost track of everything which counts.
That, to me, is the most disappointing thing about the last 6 years: I can scarcely remember an article that I’ve read that made libertarian arguments for or against any of the myriad policies and events that have transpired.
I think that there were a couple. Liz Wolfe did one where she talked about the divide between Pro-Life and Pro-Choice libertarians. I didn't agree with it, but she was truly trying to explore the actual fundamental issues at play. Similarly, Stephanie Slade has had some similar articles that attempt to discuss principles, rather than stadiums.
I would prefer dozens of articles that I disagree with on libertarian principles, rather than the 1000th article where Sullum says, "Hey guys, the science very well may not completely support lockdown nation!" Logically tell me why Hoppe was wrong in his view on immigration, rather than tut tut about the 80th stadium subsidy.
The entire libertarian leadership- from the people writing at reason to the Bill Weld "Bake the Damn Cake" contingent have been concerned more with hitching themselves to popularity contests, than trying to actually explain libertarian philosophy. And as a result, an entire decade of kids reading this site will find nothing of use in understanding Non Aggression.
"I have seen Reason- and many Libertarians in general- descend from a defender of Free Minds and Free Markets to being more concerned with riding popular waves. "
Given the intellectual bankruptcy of Libertarianism, that's probably inevitable. Reactionaires react. If they showcase the efforts of those they agree with, and criticize those they don't, that seems to be enough, really. What more do you expect?
Given the vapid, conclusory drivel that you have always pulled out of your ass, I stopped at your first sentence. You never say anything of more intellectual heft than a 1690 witch burner, mtrueman. You confuse your imagination for evidence, and your tired tautologies for wit.
You wouldn't know intellect if it smacked you in the face. Luckily, you are so busy biting at everyone's ankles that any coming your way passes far, far above you.
Which libertarian magazines/web sites do you approve of?
"Marx WANTED the rise of capitalism! Hitler believed in GRAVITY!"
I thought Godwin's Law said "as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison to Nazis or Adolf Hitler approaches 1". You just skipped straight to the end, huh?
"I mean, pretty much anyone could see that by the time he was writing Das Kapital."
Ah, marginalization through minimalization. How unsurprising.
"The problem was that the entire basis of his sociological screed, Das Kapital, hinged on the Labor Theory of Value which, by the 1860s, was largely falsified on its face by scholarly work on Marginal Theory at the turn of the century 50 – 60 years earlier."
Of course, the Mariginal Revolution was an early- to mid-1870s movement, with major works being published by Menger in 1871 and Walras in 1874. So I'm not sure how "anyone" could see in 1867 that the LTV (a theory by noted anti-capitalist Adam Smith) was "falsified". Since, you know, the LTV wasn't seriously challenged by Marginalism until almost a decade after Das Kapital was published.
"The idea that Genovese was anything we’d recognize as Right Wing today is bizarre."
And yet you also wrote, "Genovese became a Catholic, and so rooted a bunch of his criticism of capitalism in religious notions of sin.".
At least you see how you undermined your own claim with your own words. Someone who views the world through religious notions of sin is the one of the cornerstones of the Right Wing today. I know you were going for sarcasm. Hard fail.
"But this is the intellectual mess you find yourself in when you lose your principled focus and get wrapped up by tribal politics."
Yes. You should stop doing that. Your pseudohistorical screed that puts the acceptance of Marginal Theory almost seven decades before it actually happened is as bad as the people who put forth Lost Cause nonsense.
Are you going to tell us next that paleoconservatives are really libertarians?
It's "funny" to read about slave owners decrying the "cash nexus" when they are the ones who bought and sold human beings. Genovese's hatred of capitalism leading him "back" to slavery is similar to the tone in Karl Paul Polanyi's famous book, "The Great Transformation", in which he has the strong tendency to take the position that the effects of capitalism are all bad, that feudalism, which condemned everyone to the "idiocy of rural life", was much better than the present. Sad!
I more and more believe Democrats and socialists and statists in general are trying to bring back a kinder gentler feudalism. Republicans at least pay lip service to constitutional democracy. Neither has any real use for individualism, but Democrats have given up on the lip service aspect.
Come on! People like Bill Gates know what's best for us, and, as recently quoted, Bill knows that best includes living simple, meaner lives. For us, not him.
Did you get your cricket ration yet?
I'm all for saving the planet, but a dude's gotta eat.
It really is difficult to see these Technocrats spouting off about science, AI, and Big Data without concluding that they are writing their own version of Divine Right.
On the contrary I think that the GOP have for the last 50 years been engaged in trying to bring about corporate feudalism.
That is a consistent explanation for why
* taxation has become de facto regressive
* college fees have risen so steeply
* graduate degrees have become necessary for higher-end white-collar jobs
* rising health costs, making it increasingly risky to leave companies to move elsewhere or to set up your own company
* unions were progressively crushed
* one consequence, structural immobility of labour increases
Basically, it's harder to avoid working for corporations, it's more difficult for those not already in the economic upper class to have your children get the qualifications and then those prestige jobs, and it's also more difficult to develop the kind of dynamic entreneurial society that really powers capitalism - instead we move to a more sluggish corporatist society.
The GOP, or both major parties working together to herd everyone into a particular corporate lifestyle?
One set of unions was decidedly not crushed, but has grown considerably, in numbers and political influence:
government employees unions
*taxation has become de facto regressive
Are you serious? Have you ever looked at the revenue charts put out by the IRS?
*college fees have risen so steeply
At least half of all colleges in the US are state schools. Increased tuition and fees is because the state is an insatiable beast.
*graduate degrees have become necessary for higher-end white-collar jobs
This is by governmental decree and pushed by entrenched older workers who don’t want competition. It crosses party lines, though it seems this kind of credentialism is held up more by Democrats as a good thing.
*rising health costs
A great deal of our increased healthcare costs is predicated on using insurance like it’s a maintenance plan. And keeping old people alive for longer. Again, not exclusive to Republicans.
It not just 'not exclusive' to Republicans, it's pretty much exclusive to Democrats.
Which party keep pushing "healthcare should cover __________________________ and ______________ & ___________, _______________, __________, ___________ & ____________ & __________, __________, __________ and don't forget ___________, and it's phobic and sexist if ________, _____________, __________, __________, _________, ________, __________ & ___________ & ___________ along with __________ aren't covered either. And _____________ elective _____________ for adults and minors should also be covered because ___________ and __________ are life saving healthcare.
I more meant that Republicans are smart enough to not piss off the most reliable voters: seniors on Medicare. That’s why they hardly, if ever talk about slashing it or putting it in the dustbin of history where it belongs.
I liked health insurance a whole lot better before Obama helped out with his legislation.
> This is by governmental decree and pushed by entrenched older workers who don’t want competition. It crosses party lines, though it seems this kind of credentialism is held up more by Democrats as a good thing.
This is because a regular college degree has become worthless because they're sending everyone to college by giving away lots of money which is driving up the cost as well. These problems are all related. And they aren't GOP driven.
“These problems are all related. And they aren’t GOP driven.”
Too true.
@Designate
Are you serious? Have you ever looked at the revenue charts put out by the IRS?
You may have fallen for a common statistical fallacy where you confuse the percentage revenue received from each income band with the degree of progressivity/regressivity of tax
If 80% of revenue is received from people earning over $1mm and 20% of revenue is received from people earning under $1mm, taxation can still be regressive if there's one guy earning $10mm on which he pays tax at 8% and 5 guys each earning $80,000 all taxed at 50%. For example.
You may also have not considered the entirety of the tax system.
Some research: /https://eml.berkeley.edu/~saez/taxsimsummary_v2.pdf
I can believe it is possible (even likely) that there is a better economic/social system than free markets, and we haven’t yet had the next Adam Smith to come along, see it clearly, and lay it out an explanation for the rest of us.
It certainly wouldn’t be Marxism, communism or socialism. Instead, it would be something we aren’t quite able to see. Something that probably builds on free market economics, adding a new dimension.
The biggest flaw I’m seeing in my life-long free market, libertarian belief system is I thought for sure it would convert places like Russia and China to adopt our Western ways.
That obviously isn’t happening. Or maybe it is happening, and the current Russian and Chinese leadership are the last gasp of the old guard trying to hold onto the past.
One thing I'm fairly certain about is that the nation-state model is not working well. I believe there is an optimum size for a country, and the most troublesome nation-states exceed that size.
Possibly better is a modernized version of the old city-state model.
Also, there could be multiple, overlapping governments governing different aspects of life. For example, why does the government that runs your city's fire department have to be the same government that governs the stock exchange you have investments in. (In actual practice, they are different governments, although in our current nation-state model they supposedly all fit into a hierarchical arrangement.)
I think it’s pretty clear that China and Russia and the US have fed off of each other’s economic systems and are a mixture of both, just to varying degrees.
Yes, of course. All three of these countries’ economic systems are mixed.
(Well, I’m not sure about Russia anymore.)
Russia’s economy is probably less mixed than ours, at least from a pure regulatory, barriers-to-entry standpoint. It’s most certainly more corrupt than ours, in a straight forward, simplistic way. And at the very top of the economy (natural resources, oil, steel, heavy manufacturing, etc) far more cronyist than ours is, again, in a more straight-line way than ours. Ours is cronyist in the “Biden has an electric car summit and Tesla is not invited because labor unions and special interests” kind of way.
But at the lower levels, I strongly suspect it's going to be easier to open a bowling alley or a fruit stand in Russia than it would be in the US. Same with China.
"it’s going to be easier to open a bowling alley or a fruit stand in Russia than it would be in the US. Same with China."
Perhaps. But in Russia there will be a guy there the day after you open with an offer you can't refuse. One that costs a sizable percentage of your profits. In China, it isn't your bowling alley or fruit stand, it belongs to the state and you just manage it.
For all the flaws in our system, it is like what Winston Churchill said about democracy ("Democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time"), except in economics. Free market capitalism isn't perfect, but it beats everything else out there hands down.
In China, it isn’t your bowling alley or fruit stand, it belongs to the state and you just manage it.
That's not quite true. China has very confusing and byzantine rules surrounding owning and operating businesses (sound familiar)? There is certainly an aspect of what you say to the ownership of the land (real-estate) in that no property is "owned" by anyone but on a 90 year lease. I don't want to be flip by making shallow comparisons, but the West is similar. In the US I must pay property taxes which, while not a 'lease' in any structure, in the end it operates like a lease. Stop paying your property taxes and eventually the land will be appropriated by the state.
Free market capitalism isn’t perfect, but it beats everything else out there hands down.
Right, which unfortunately doesn't really speak to HOW you're being crushed in our mixed economy vs the mixed economies of China and Russia.
One example I like to point out was a video I saw of a young woman who had finally decided to leave California with her husband. They were a working class couple and the woman had decided to set up a face-painting booth in California at a fair to make a little extra money during the summer. When she looked into getting a license, she was so overwhelmed with the state requirements... to open up a face-painting booth-- that she finally threw here hands in the air and gave up in exasperation. I can pretty much guarantee you that setting up a face-painting booth in Russia and China are easier affairs than they are in the US, especially states like California.
None of this is to say that "Russia and China are better places to do business" or "better at capitalism". What I'm saying is all of us live in mixed economies where pressure points are applied in different areas and for different reasons.
You'd be amazed at how countries are nominally considered 'unfree' can have an amazingly low amount of regulation on daily life. Where we in the West refer to ourselves as free, liberal Democracies (which I would agree they are) but the state is involved in almost every aspect in your lives in a way that the average Russian would probably be shocked at.
None of this is to say that “Russia and China are better places to do business” or “better at capitalism”. What I’m saying is all of us live in mixed economies where pressure points are applied in different areas and for different reasons.
I just re-read this passage and I couldn't help but smile at its contradictions. If it were "so much better to do business in the US" then no US company would be manufacturing in China. But yet almost all of them do. That right there tells you that on many of the most important levels, it's easier and cheaper to do business in China than the US.
Manufacturing was cheaper in China because labor is cheaper in less-developed economies. The central government has subsidized manufacturing over the past couple decades as China has become wealthier to keep the sector from collapsing.
But even with subsidies, today much of the cheaper manufacturing is in Indonesia, the Phillipines, and Vietnam. That is just the reality of manufacturing, not a comment on the ease of doing business in each country.
Occupational licensing is a horrorshow in America, but it doesn't impact the cost of manufacturing.
"You’d be amazed at how countries are nominally considered ‘unfree’ can have an amazingly low amount of regulation on daily life."
I had a culture shock experience with this very idea the first time I vacationed in Japan. You can drink in public. Not just in restaurants and bars, but on the street. You can buy beer in Lawson and Family Mart and drink it on the sidewalk like a bottle of water any time of the day. At first I couldn't believe that was actually permitted. I've lived in PA most of my life so I find it weird just to see non-state run liquor stores or alcohol sold in convenience stores. Most people would say America is more free than Japan, but to the best of my knowledge, there are only a few municipalities with bizarre and extensive regulations that permit open containers in the US.
I beleve there are only four in the US. The historic district in Savannah, Beale Street in Memphis, the French Quarter in New Orleans, and the Strip in Las Vegas.
But alcohol laws in the US are the legacy of Christians (most notably Puritans and Protestants) claiming alcohol and other imtoxicants led to immoral behavior. That eventually morphed into intoxicants in general being labeled immoral. Most other countries have cast off such religiously-inspired prohibitionism, but the US remains mired in misplaced moral outrage at fun stuff.
I suppose theoretically a super-supercomputer could allocate resources more effectively than government bureaucrats or the gamble-compete-win-lose creative destruction model of capitalism. But who would program it?
Capitalism isn't superior just because it allocates resources more effectively than government bureaucrats with limited knowledge, it's superior because it allows people to take chances, risking only their own money and that of their voluntary backers. Sometimes they win and everyone benefits, sometimes they lose and they take the loss. The out-sized rewards to those who gamble and win encourages creative risk-taking.
The other main benefit of capitalism is that it maintains the peace. Cash and property and labor are only exchanged when both sides of the deal agree. No one votes on who gets what, it has to be unanimous.
No, the whole central planning supercomputer idea is not where the next evolution from capitalism would be.
I suppose theoretically a super-supercomputer could allocate resources more effectively than government bureaucrats or the gamble-compete-win-lose creative destruction model of capitalism. But who would program it?
Me.
Haha. Is skimming a tiny percentage of all transactions into your personal back account efficient?
I suppose theoretically a super-supercomputer could allocate resources more effectively than government bureaucrats or the gamble-compete-win-lose creative destruction model of capitalism. But who would program it?
No, it couldn't, and for too many reasons to bother explaining. Perfect efficiency and humanity are mutually exclusive is the bottom line.
I do like the 'who would program it' bit though, since ultimately whomever programs it is the person or group who holds actual power. Same with voting machines. Outsource your vote to a computer, and whomever programs (or hacks) the computer is the one who actually votes.
I dunno. The functionally of the voting machine is sufficiently straightforward that it can be tested or audited against a hand count of the paper ballots fed into it. That’s a very common practice.
Hey, how is Fox News doing defending those "voting machines are faulty/hacked/stole votes" theories?
Oh, right. They are getting their asses kicked. That's what happens when one side has all the facts and the other has Tucker Carlson.
I didn't say anything about them actually being hacked, that is a fever dream you read into my statement.
I invite you to use a computer, ever, and tell me that they work perfectly all the time and never have any issues with programming. If it's a machine you use for gaming, a bug or glitch isn't a big deal. If it's a voting machine one could say it's a little more important.
"I invite you to use a computer, ever, and tell me that they work perfectly all the time and never have any issues with programming."
But the stolen election narrative isn't alleging random bugs or glitches. It is alleging intentional, directed voter fraud that had the specific goal of stealing the election from Trump.
"If it’s a voting machine one could say it’s a little more important."
Is there any evidence that such a thing happened? The answer is no.
Is there any evidence of widespread voter fraud? Also no.
Is there any evidence that any voting machine changed any vote? Also no.
But don't let little things like facts and reality interfere with your fantasy.
"I didn’t say anything about them actually being hacked, that is a fever dream you read into my statement."
Apparently you forgot your post right before this one, where you said: "whomever programs (or hacks) the computer is the one who actually votes."
But to be fair, you weren't just trying to create doubt in voting machines in general. You were trying to cast doubt on any mechanical tabulation of votes.
Because according to you, "whomever programs it is the person or group who holds actual power". Your assumption being that the programmers wouldn't program a voting machine to tabulate votes. They would program them to steal votes. That's insane.
The developed world doesn't use electronic voting and they all cite the same reason: it's hackable like any other electronic device. Doubly so if it's connected to any kind of network.
Also, mechanical is not the same thing as electronic you dunce.
I suppose *insert magic here* could more efficiently allocate goods and services, which is why everyone should automatically support *insert magic here*. Because who’s against efficiency? Not I!
It may be that a better system wouldn’t concern itself with efficiency at the expense of other considerations: robustness, for example.
We are in a mess now because it was efficient to let China manufacture chips for us. Europe is in a mess because it was efficient to buy energy from Russia.
Vague criticisms with no meaningful analysis of alternatives.
No. we’re in a mess now because people in power want more stuff that isn’t theirs. And people not in power want to be in power. And theirs entirely too much power to be had.
I'm not sure limited liability (risking only one's money) is really a necessary positive of capitalism. Certainly it is a form of legal protectionism for capital. But it doesn't really 'subsidize' positive-sum risks- rather it 'subsidizes' zero-sum risks. And in particular it solidifies a false assumption that capitalism depends on tilting the field towards capital.
"Capitalism isn’t superior just because"...
Add to all that one of the biggest reasons it works and socialism fails is that it takes full advantage of the parts of human nature that incentivize growth and prosperity while socialism does the opposite.
The old saying of "we pretend to work, and the government pretends to pay us" is perfect. When you know that no matter how hard you work, your gains will be distributed (in 'prefect' communism) or more likely, pilfered by whoever the 'elite' more equal animals at the top are (which is how it actually works out, every time)...well human nature takes over and the people capable of great things and innovation go and do the minimum because some communist cronie is just going to take it.
Capitalism takes advantage of the dopamine pathways in your brain. Grinding, getting rewards, innovating, getting bigger rewards, and seeing your life get significantly better; capitalism works synergistically with our brain chemistry. It unlocks what people are capable of. Socialism benefits only those who have set up the grift and positioned themselves with the govt guns
The free market hasn’t been able to improve North Korea, either. I consider that a failure of North Korea, not the free exchange of goods and services.
There isn’t, Central planning doesn’t work. We have idiots doing the planning. Even with true geniuses with real capability it wouldn’t work. Free markets enable innovation which enables technological advances which create more efficiency which leads to abundance. Marxism, and all bastard offshoots of Marxism, create scarcity and necessarily do so through tyranny and subjugation.
Just leave people the hell alone, or else.
It has "rescued a considerable part of the population from the idiocy of rural life"
Marx was obviously not worried about the Iowa Caucuses at the time.
Shyeah, the 'idiocy of rural life' was again and example of why Marx actually hated the working class.
Nick Gillespie on Factory jobs:
So that's right, you use a movie produced by non-working class people to understand the working class. Those people who lost those factory jobs and never learned to code sure are nostalgic for those factory jobs, though.
More Nick on factory jobs:
There's no going back to the 1950s, '60s, or '70s (when manufacturing employment peaked in the U.S.). More important, why would you want to, especially in terms of daily work conditions and social mores?
To Make America Great Again?
Yeah…… I doubt Nick has ever set foot in a working factory.
He did. He worked a factory job when he was young, before he got his English degree, and while I couldn't find the exact article I was looking for, he suggested that based on his experience, no one would ever really want to work in a factory because factory jobs suck.
"Learn to English degree and write opinion thinkpieces"
More than that, Marx apparently failed to realize that there is a 'real' economy and another economy built on top of it. If the 'hated' farm and blue collar jobs aren't filled and chugging away in the real economy than the economy layered on top of it fails automatically.
This is the great absurdity of our times. Everyone wants a remote work-from-home do-nothing job, but without people who do the work in the 'real' economy those people straight up starve in the dark.
And, to that point, those jobs will never be fully automated, if they can even be automated at all. Even if you could, how many people really want to be on-site robot maintenance technicians, and how many would even be needed? If that's the only job, who would want it when 'not working at all' is the alternative?
Ah, utopians. Just as stupid today as they were in yesteryear.
Everyone should learn to code.
I hate that phrase, because it assumes that everyone wants to code.
Not to mention the little fact that I know people who 'code' for a living, and they generally make jack shit a year. Well below that of the average blue collar worker, which is so hilarious I forgot to laugh.
I know people who ‘code’ for a living, and they generally make jack shit a year
I'm in the Silicon Valley. I know a lot of people, including myself, who did very well writing code.
-jcr
Yeah, and there are super-rich musicians too even while most of them can't afford cardboard for dinner.
"Ah, utopians. Just as stupid today as they were in yesteryear."
The biggest sector for blue collar workers is in trucking, isn't it? Something like 3 or 4 million of them earning about 50 grand a year. If any sector seems ripe for automation, is this one. That's what all the hype about self driving vehicles is about. As I understand, today's truckers are already under constant surveillance by their employers via computer technology. It'll only increase.
"how many people really want to be on-site robot maintenance technicians,"
I met an telephone repair man who worked for BT, British Telecom. He worked for years repairing the broken phones of the customers. I met him shortly after he'd been made redundant. Apparently it was cheaper simply to scrap the problem phones and replace them with new ones. Takes less time and no need to train a workforce in something that requires skill and knowledge.
"This is the great absurdity of our times. Everyone wants a remote work-from-home do-nothing job, but without people who do the work in the ‘real’ economy those people straight up starve in the dark."
Why do you think that WFH jobs are "do-nothing" jobs? And what do think the 'real' economy is?
I worked for two companies after I sold my stake in my company. One was based in Miami. One was based in Portland. I never left Delaware. I started with 2 and ended with 12 people reporting to me and, with the exception of a married couple, no two lived in the same state. Why is that a bad thing? Why doesn't that count as the 'real' economy?
How does that produce food, or any durable goods necessary for survival?
The ‘real’ economy, so to speak, is that economy which produces tangibles necessary for the existence of your job producing ‘management’.
I call work from home ‘do nothing’ because a lot of jobs that involve working from home produce nothing tangible (such as yours in particular) and thus they exist in the economy of idea’s, or the ephemeral economy if you prefer, and those types of jobs would not and could not exist without the infrastructure that is built and maintained here in the real world by people who are ironically looked down upon by those very people who owe them their existence.
High way construction people, linemen, grocers, and a host of other occupations that your economic station rests on top of.
I shouldn’t need to explain this to such a high up executive that’s been entrusted with the management of others, surely you went to college yes? Was economics not a course you were required to take for your degree? If not, it’s amazing you ended up in management and congratulations are in order. Perhaps this is the Peter Principle in action? Or, worse yet, The Dilbert Principle.
“I shouldn’t need to explain this to such a high up executive”
I undertand the definition of the real economy in economics. But that’s not what you are talking about, is it? You are using ‘real’ as a value. That making things is valuable and the people who do that work are virtuous. And things like finance, marketing, sales, and operations are “do-nothing” jobs that just perch like a parasite on top, stealing from those ‘real’ workers and their output.
“I call work from home ‘do nothing’ because a lot of jobs that involve working from home produce nothing tangible (such as yours in particular)”
Interesting assessment of my job, since you have no idea what I did. Oh, wait. It doesn’t matter since you know what is virtuous. The belief that making things is noble and valuable and everything else is just taking advantage of those people who do the real things in life. The tangible things. The useful things.
“those types of jobs would not and could not exist without the infrastructure that is built and maintained here in the real world”
Who gets those things from the place they’re made to the place they’re needed? I don’t mean the driving, I mean the planning? Who creates demand for products so that the factory needs to make more product (employing more people) and the linemen have to run more line and the highway construction crews have to build more roads? Who finances the expansion of the facilities that makes the things that the marketing department grew demand for and the operations department manages delivery to the customers that the sales department recruits?
Thinking that you can make stuff, stick it on pallets in the parking lot, and have a successful business is insanity. Those who make need those who plan and execute as much as the other way around. Failed businesses that had great products and terrible management are so common as to be unremarkable. Neither is superior, morally or otherwise.
“your economic station rests on top of”
My economic station rests on my own hard work. My knowledge and my effort built a business from scratch. My connections and success made me a highly desirable employee when I sold. My success as a worker and a manager grew my team and our revenues. And I could work from home because no one had to babysit me to do my job. If I didn’t produce, I didn’t have a job.
I don’t pretend that one type of work is more necessary or more valuable, that any step of the path from raw materials to consumer is inherently good. What someone manufactures requires the raw materials someone else mined or grew or harvested. The demand that someone creates requires the product someone else manufactured. On-demand inventory means that operations managers create (or destroy) more value for companies than almost anyone else, as evidenced by the supply chain issues that interrupted shipping and manufacturing created (and continue to create).
It is a false conflict between people who shower before work and people who shower after it, as the saying goes. Manual labor and intellectual labor cannot succeed without each other. They require each other to succeed.
For example, I don’t have the skills to fix my car (especially these days), but my mechanic can’t either unless someone gets the part from the factory to his shop in a profitable way. I need him, he needs the planners at the auto parts company, and they need the workers in the factory (who need the miners who dug the metal).
It is symbiosis, not exploitation. Certainly not parasitism.
This is the kind of article that makes me think the writers are reading my comments.
Justin Trudeau wouldn't put up with that fucking shit for one minute.
Neither did Comrade Xi. Bridge Man got arrested
Any article referencing the Civil War that references two Fire Breathers (James Hammond and Edmund Ruffin) and Karl Marx's contemporaneous articles - here his first to Vienna's Die Presse - is well worth reading.
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On occasions such as these I like to remind myself that none of the Marxists or Marxians I have ever known personally had ever actually read Hegel, Marx, Engels or Marx and Engels. If they had read anything at all Marxian it was the Cliff Notes and comments by modern Marxist apologists. As someone who actually read "Capital" and "The Communist Manifesto" all the way through after several false starts and fortified by a lot of anti-nausea pills, I concluded that almost every paragraph on almost every page was a combination of "no, duh!" observations, conclusions not supported by any observations or facts cited, fantasies about what it all meant and where it would all end, and self-justifying angst about fairness.
Marx paraphrase, "[WE] mobs can't become successful armed criminals that STEAL for a living if capitalism hasn't created anything to STEAL."
Did I get that right?
Marx was an evil cunt.
-jcr
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Genovese ultimately rejected Marx in the 1980s and became a sort of right-wing anti-capitalist.
This is insane bias. In reality there’s nothing right wing about this. His leftism is so extreme it leads him to place slavery above freedom. That doesn’t make him right wing.
It’s revealing to see this type of insane claim not just made explicit but passing through the editing process. Disgusting.
Thanks for this thousandth conservative nitpicking and hairsplitting of what Karl Marx surely must have meant. Anyone can visit Gutenberg.org and verify that neither Adam Smith nor Karl Marx used the term "capitalist." Other looters made it up and to this day seek to reverse-engineer or "rectify" history and cram it down the throats of they who never spoke it. It is as though Orwell's 'Who controls the past, controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.' were a recipe for wannabee totalitarianism.
Marx never made the case for free markets and stop referring to free markets as capitalism. Capitalism is a marxist pejorative for freedom. Marx didn't like how freedom produced outcomes he disapproved of.
Marx was so much of an idiot that he horseshoed himself and inadvertently proved free markets work by trying to rationalize his theories. The most generous reading of Marx is he was the kid teachers think about when they say "there's no such thing as a dumb question except your questions Timmy." Yes, Marx asked some questions that inadvertently proved why freedom is better. That's all he did.
So......
Socialism won't work from a blank starting point as there is no material wealth to create a foundation of socialism from.
You need a capitilostic society to create the resources for a socialist country to then steal and re-create a new society. History shows that socialist know cannot function for very long without more resources to steal from. The ideal Marxist will want to create a society from a past successful capitilostic society so in their lifetime of leadership has enough resources to give Marxist leaders a good life. As Marxism will always fail a lack of resources will lead to a quickly declining communist's society. So either it collapses or creates a war to gain further resources.
Correct. Capitalism required feudalism (or some other version of a caste system) and Marxism/socialism requires capitalism.
Besides the fact that he used Adam Smith's VTL as a premise, which in hindsight doomed it to failure, an economic system that fails to factor in the value of individual reward-seeking will never be an accurate model of society.
The idea that people will be outraged by vast inequality isn't an unreasonable one. The idea that they would then subjugate their own financial opportunities to that of society as a response is. There is a vast space in between where people can oppose subjugation and exploitation while still keeping their financial future in their own hands.
But we have the stock market, so Marxism isn't completely dead.
I wonder when Reason will make a case for capitalism instead of promoting socialism?
I wonder why you think that Reason has ever promoted socialism? Unless you think that promoting individual liberty and opposing paleoconservative culture war restrictionism suddenly equals promoting a socialist economic system.
But I'm confident you wouldn't be that clueless or dishonest.
I don't know about as an organization but being that 60% or more of the writers said they'd vote for a socialist party leader over Trump pretty much says it all.
Which socialist party leader are you referring to? Bernie?
And concluding that Bernie as a 1-term president would be better than 4 more years of Trump isn't an unreasonable analysis. It would be a kleptocracy either way, but at least Bernie is honest about what he wants to steal and why he want to steal it.
Bernie is wrong, but sincere in his delusions. Trump has been a born-on-third-base trust fund baby his whole life, believing in nothing other than himself. And grifting since he learned to talk.
Difference being your "unreasonable analysis" is based on propaganda induced personal hatred. Mine is based on political ideology.
Example; What did Trump's administration do that so horrid? You want to call it names without a single piece of evidence to support your claims. Biden (not Bernie) but two sh*theads in the same boat have a running history of socialist support and policy that no-one denies.