New Jersey Joins New York in Defying the SCOTUS Decision Upholding the Right To Bear Arms
Legislators in both states favor subjective standards and sweeping restrictions for carry permits.

Most states respect the constitutional right to carry guns in public for self-defense, which the Supreme Court upheld last June. But some states are only pretending to comply with the Second Amendment, as illustrated by the law that New York passed after that decision and a similar bill that legislative leaders in New Jersey introduced last week.
In an October 6 ruling, U.S. District Judge Glenn T. Suddaby rejected New York's attempt to defy the Constitution and the Supreme Court. Although New York eliminated a demand that carry permit applicants show "proper cause," which the Court said gave licensing officials too much discretion, the state retained and elaborated on a requirement that applicants demonstrate "good moral character."
That amorphous standard, Suddaby noted, is based on "undefined assessments" of "temperament," "judgment," and trustworthiness. New York "has replaced its requirement that an applicant show a special need for self-protection with its requirement that the applicant rebut the presumption that he or she is a danger," he wrote, "while retaining (and even expanding) the open-ended discretion afforded to its licensing officers."
Under New York's law, the assessment of "good moral character" includes an examination of the applicant's online comments. As the gun owners who are challenging the law see it, that inquiry violates the right to freedom of speech as well as the right to bear arms, making the latter contingent on how applicants have exercised the former.
Suddaby issued a temporary restraining order against enforcement of the "good moral character" criterion, including the state's demand for information about applicants' social media accounts. He also took a dim view of New York's sweeping, location-specific bans on firearm possession, which made it legally perilous even for permit holders to leave home with a gun.
Applying the standard prescribed by the Supreme Court, Suddaby said many of those restrictions seemed inconsistent with "this Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation." He concluded that the state's prohibition of guns in settings such as bars, restaurants, entertainment venues, gambling facilities, stadiums, parks, playgrounds, zoos, libraries, museums, and public transportation probably failed that test.
Unfazed by that warning, New Jersey Senate President Nicholas Scutari (D–Linden) and Assembly Speaker Craig Coughlin (D‒Woodbridge Township) have unveiled legislation that closely resembles the law that Suddaby deemed constitutionally dubious. Like New York's law, their bill would impose a subjective standard for carry permits and ban guns from myriad places where people might want to carry them for self-protection.
To obtain a carry permit, an applicant would have to persuade the police that he does not pose a threat to himself or others. Toward that end, he would have to undergo an interview and submit any information that local or state police officials deemed relevant, including "publicly available statements posted or published online by the applicant."
Suddaby explicitly rejected both of those requirements in New York. And while the threat assessment that Scutari and Coughlin imagine may not be quite as open-ended as New York's "good moral character" test, it likewise gives licensing authorities wide discretion to reject applications based on subjective judgments, including inferences from opinions an applicant has expressed.
Scutari and Coughlin's list of gun-free locations is even longer than New York's, and it includes many restrictions that Suddaby thought the state had failed to justify. In addition to banning guns in specified places, the bill would prohibit them on private property, including homes and businesses, unless the owner expressly allows them and posts a sign to that effect—another rule that Suddaby rejected.
These regulations, Democrats bragged, will make New Jersey "the toughest in the nation when it comes to concealed-carry laws." Coughlin said "we're doing this because we know gun safety does not conflict with safe gun ownership."
Despite Coughlin's assurances, his idea of "gun safety" plainly conflicts with what the Supreme Court has said about the right to bear arms. He may find that judges cannot be fooled as easily as he hopes.
© Copyright 2022 by Creators Syndicate Inc.
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Suddaby issued a temporary restraining order against enforcement of the "good moral character" criterion...
Sooo, New York is issuing permits now, as it's legally required to do?
I very much doubt it...unless you are a politician or a wealthy and well connected citizen...no license for you. "Good moral character" is surely defined as supporting progressive liberal agendas on your social media accounts.
Which is likely completely true.
So, if the Democrats cab ignore the SCOTUS, then the Republicans can do likewise. That means that our governments have gone rogue and are no longer a part of the constitutional republic. I think we should all just ignore the laws and have anarchy.
People of good moral character do not apply for gun permits.
Pretty sure this is the default position.
Why should we do that? We were BORN with them, silly!!!
No. I don't know of any county actively issuing permits. The standard excuse is lack of manpower to perform the investigation in a timely manner.
For instance, in Onondaga County (Syracuse) the mandatory personal interviews are being scheduled at a minimum of six months after the application is filed. Some smaller Sheriff offices are advising applicants that they can expect to wait at least 9 months before the permit is issued.
Another wrinkle is that final approval comes from a county Judge. After the law was changed many judges declared that the old applications were no longer valid, would not get final approval, and that the applicant would need to reapply under the new rules.
Meet northern nullificationism.
As in Czechoslovakia after May 1945, nationalsocialists are are learning that two can play at the initiation of force... Hurry up and bully the weaker sex while you can. Don't be surprised if women voters hand in an election that leads Orange Hitler to shoot himself like his brownshirt predecessor. I plan to sit on the sidelines and chuckle.
Just understand that ALL liberals utilize the law anyway they want to achieve their political ends. Not one criminal ever applies for a gun permit yet they carry guns and are released without bail everyday by liberal judges. Individuals who try to follow laws in liberal States as regards the 2nd amendment will find themselves in a bureaucratic maze that amounts to a you "can't get there from here" situation. Laws and decisions are meaningless to leftists who don't agree with them.
Anarcho-Tyranny
Even though Arizona is Constitutional Carry, there are some reason to get a permit. Like: Show your permit, buy a gun, walk out the store. No background check. It took two weeks from the time I submitted my permit application, until I received my carry permit.
And some black Obama judge on the 2nd Circuit issued an administrative stay. The Democrat Party judges are planning on aiding and abetting all along.
Progressives hate civil liberties = dog bites man.
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Nothing surprises me about the People's Republic of NJ. It is run by progressive idiots.
And so it begins. SCOTUS has exceeded its authority by reading the Second Amendment which was meant to encourage the formation of militias since the founders feared the creation of standing armies, as a blanket right to allow everyone, everywhere to carry a gun, concealed or otherwise where ever they choose, regardless of the public safety issues involved.
By deliberately mis reading the Amendment and ascribing beliefs that none of the founders ever articulated onto an outdated policy which happens to favor one political party and philosophhy, the court has called its own credibility into question. Now we are seeing the results. States are ignoring the ruling and refusing to accept the Court's legitimacy in making it. After the Brown decision, Southern states who objected to the ruling, attempted to evade it by establishing "private" segregated academies. They didn't flat out refuse to accept the Court's legitimacy in making it. This is no longer the case. Both N.Y. and N.J. have not only questioned the ruling but have decided to ignore it. As Justice kagan warned, once the court loses its credibility with the people, its' ability to see its' rulings obeyed disappears. This is the first warning shot against partisan judicial over-reach based on nothing but an illegitimate majority of justices, some of whom committed perjury duing their Senate testimony. Coney Baret said it best when she attempted to defend the court from being seen as "a collection of partisan hacks." If the majority insists on behaving like "partisan hacks," they can't complain when the public views them as such.
Interesting. New troll in the room combining pretty much every cut and paste justification you'd find at Mother Jones.
Here's the trick. If you dole those talking points out one at a time, instead of in one unreadable paragraph, you still get your handlers' talking points out there and get a bunch more 50 cent checks along the way.
Loser.
So AngelamM where did you get your advanced law degree? Seems individual interpretations of the 2nd amendment follow exactly political beliefs to a tee. Conservatives see it one way with some variations but leftists always twist any interpretation of the Constitution to fit their political POV. Will ANY liberal ever support a law abiding citizen being able to carry a firearm for any reason. Probably not so most will just ignore them and any faux laws they might pass to restrict their 2nd amendment rights. BTW leftists are calling for the ignoring of the Roe decision so your lecture about the S.C.'s credibility seems a bit misplaced. Attacking institutions seems the order of the day in leftists circles.
Here is the wording of the 2nd Amendment:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
The phrase "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," is a subordinate clause to the full sentence " the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
The full sentence " the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." can stand on its own. Which means it has primacy over the militia subordinate phrase.
You say it was meant to encourage the formation of militias. A person's right to own and bear arms is not dependent upon that person being a member of a militia. If the Founders wanted to require the states to have militias they would have written it that way.
It’s all she’s got. A a twisted, tortured interpretation of clear language.
“[M]isreading the Amendment and ascribing beliefs that none of the founders ever articulated…the court has called its own credibility into question.”
Tell me you haven’t read the Federalist Papers without telling me you haven’t read the Federalist Papers.
Fuck off, slaver.
From which planet did you just fly in on your broom?
HOW much studying have YOU actually done on the period of time from about 1700 up to the time our new Constitutoin ws ratified? Can't be much cuz you are pretty cluless as to how things went down back in that time.
You said this: ................. a blanket right to allow everyone, everywhere to carry a gun, concealed or otherwise where ever they choose, regardless of the public safety issues involved ..............and THAT is precisely what the law of the land was in that day and time. Many towns had laws MANDATING that every able bodied male between about 16 and 60 must possess a long gun capable of firing ball ( turkey guns did not qualify) I know for a fact that the town of Salem, north a fair ways from Boston, had a law mandating that every able bodied male above the age of sixteen WILL carry a long gun, powder, shot, filnt, etc) as they proceed to meeting on Sunday morning. I also know for a fact that one such Sunday in the fall of 1773 two men had stayed behind at home to take care of an urgent situation, and once in hand they would then proceed to the meeting house. late and join in with the others. As they walked, dutifully carrying their muskets, then looked off toward the coast and noticed a heavy longboat making her way against the current and inland towarad Salem. By their dress and manner the men took them for British soldiers on a mission of some sort. It was not clear what that mission might be. The pair continued to observe a short while, and once certain of the intent of the sabbath rowers proceeded on to the meetinghouse and detailed what they had seen. ALL the men immediately rose up, took up their hats coats, muskets, powderhorns, and off they went. The town's powderhouse was the apparent goal of the Regulars in the boat. General Gage, the commanding officer of the Briish detachment then in Boston had been conducting, and attempting to do so, a series lf "powder raids" in Massachussetts in an ill advised attempt to disarm those colonials lest they get uppity or something. Now had those man NOT brought their arms with them to meeting, they'd have had to get home firs,t gather them up, then return to protect their powder magzine. They were well ready to defend their town's property. They got to the powderhouse long before the soldiers did, cleared the structure copletely out and were there to meet the detachment.Once they saw there was no powder, shot, etc, they agreed to return back to Boston.
You see our colonial forbears owned, trained with, carried about upon their persons, their own privately owned arms as a regular habit, presicely BECAUSE it was the safest thing to do. The troubles against which they guarded their towns was precisely WHY they went about armed as their daily habit. Same reason I, today, go about armed wherever I am. My weapon is a tool which I want ready to hand should the need present. Fifteen years now, that has never happened. But until YOU can absolutely guarantee me I will NOT meet up with any danger necessitating my use of those weapons, I will coninue to carry them wherever I go. As will about 120 millions of my fellow citizens carry one or more of the approximatley 420 millions of privately owned firearms that are amongst us.
I will also say that IF these tools were anywhere near as dangrous and risky as your whingey kind fear them to be, there WOULD be blood in the streets, shootouts at car parks, etc.. but there are not. Last year all but about two hundred at most of the 620 millions of privately owned arms here in the US did NOT harm anyone unlawfully. In contrast there were somewhere around two and a half million incidents where private citizens, using their own firearms they had with them, used those weapons to PREVENT violent crime and serious bodily harm from happening... in all but a few of those cases without even firing one round.
So yes guns DO make society safer. Deal with it.
Which part of the public do you represent. I
'm also sure you have a much higher degree of legal knowledge than the justices of the Supreme Court.
Speaking of which: "Please explain to this partisan hack that the President Election of 2020 was Rigged and Stolen."
-- Trump, on judge who ruled that Trump knew his voter fraud claims were false at the time he made them.
https://media.tenor.com/Gbnib9PB0xUAAAAC/laughing-laugh.gif
To obtain a carry permit, an applicant would have to persuade the police that he does not pose a threat to himself or others. Toward that end, he would have to undergo an interview and submit any information that local or state police officials deemed relevant, including "publicly available statements posted or published online by the applicant."
This is all going to be so much more efficient once we all get our social scores.
So this will be struck down in the courts as soon as second amendment foundation files a lawsuit
(The NRA has been sidetracked)
Then N.J. Will pass another similar law in a game of whack a mole.
Two states are now in open rebellion against the Supreme Court.
What happens when the Republicans take the presidency?
Will they send in Federal Marshalls or do nothing?
Likely the Republicans will do nothing. Its their SOP.
Republicans will approve "bipartisan" actions that will include gun control as "poison pills".
Goering, a leader of Positive Christian National Socialism, was an early adopter of the poison pill. He swallowed cyanide before the bailiffs could string him up.
Not when it comes to sending some tough guys with guns out to bully girls or shoot hippies latinos and blacks. Many German nationalsocialists bullied the weak. A few, like Keitel, stood haughty on the gibbet: 'I call on God Almighty to have mercy on the German people" was the last thing he said.
SCOTUS gonna be busy with this stuff for a while. Expect California next.
Surprised it hasn't happened yet. Newsome feels safe and is constantly looking for a way to grandstand nationally.
Feels like the 2nd amendment and abortion issues will drive dems to to make a run to expand the SCOTUS...you heard it here first folks.
I think they already blew there chances of making that happen, even though the commie rags are still beating the drums of how awful the court suddenly is.
They could still do it, depending on how many bridges they want to burn. I think the Democratic leadership in the Senate just weren't up for the tactics necessary to accomplish it.
But, of course, the moment of maximum danger isn't right now, it's during the lame duck session.
Yea, but the Dems are going to lose the house and maybe the senate. Then Biden will be revealed as an automaton designed and built by George Soros. And run by AOC.
Another state bravely standing up against tyranny to defend their ability to deprive the common people of their natural rights.
In fairness to the NJ legislature, Judge Suddaby rejected those approaches but there's a good chance that NY will appeal and the Appeals Court will support them - and then it's a 50-50 bet whether the Supreme Court will take up the case. So one interpretation is that NJ is playing the odds and might get away with it. And there's no penalty for trying and failing.
The other interpretation is that there damn well should be a penalty for trying and failing to violate the Constitution. We should be able to hold those morons personally accountable for the full costs of overturning their ridiculously unconstitutional bills. And if they don't have the financial assets to cover their debts, tar and feathers come to mind.
This ugly negroid is enemy #1 on gun rights
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunice_C._Lee
Jesus that link requires an NSFW tag. Looks like someone’s off their thyroid medication.
Your posting disqualifies you for a permit.
Go ahead. Draw up a criminal information and have a grand jury and Kleptocracy prosecutor hand up a criminal indictment charging a conspiracy exists. When Republicans were prosecuting everybody for beer, wine and booze they needed wheelbarrows and hand trucks to move the huge volume of conspiracy indictments. That was what prosecutor Willebrandt reported when the 18th Amendment was "the" Constitution. Trumpanzee activists have made women voters and jurors eager to support all things Republican and National Socialist.
Tar and feathers? Bleah.
How about debtors' prison? Find out how much their relatives really love them...
Fuck Phil Murphy and all his gun-banning friends in the assembly. And that sellout Ed Durr, while I'm at it.
Democrat Reason carrying water for leftists who want to take our guns.
"To obtain a carry permit, an applicant would have to persuade the police that he does not pose a threat to himself or others."
It seems to me that voting for the "wrong person" could equally be seen as a threat. So let's apply that standard to the right to vote. Or the right to speak. Or to publish. Or....
baby steps.... they only want to focus on a few rights at a time.
they already have too many people comfortable with stealing our money and property. (taxes) illegal search and seizure is tolerated as long as they do it behind the scenes (see Snowden) or do it mostly in higher crime areas. guns are the next big goal, with freedom of speech the next priority..... after that, the rest will be easy.
Freedom of speech is long gone. Say Hi to George Orwell.
Since neither the Republicans nor the Democrats base their positions on principles that they want to apply equally under the law your opinion is pure speculation. Since the Democrats base their gun control position on vague feelings about the danger from guns (or the danger from people with guns, but not all people with guns) they can always counter with the "guns bad - voting good" and concerning speech with the "hate bad - snowflakes good" assertion or etc etc etc ...
So the question here is: When a state refuses to comply with Supreme Court rulings and Federal Judge orders, what happens to the State and the officials who refused to comply? How many Constitutional crises has America faced and what was the outcome? If a "red" state refused to comply with a Supreme Court ruling, I know how the left would react.
As a practical matter, it makes a difference on whether the administration in office wants it to carry consequences. If no, the Supreme court famously lacks any battalions. If yes, there are a variety of legal tools available such as prosecuting a conspiracy against civil rights.
So, the earliest they could have to start worrying about consequences is 2025. The next two years' violations are basically free.
One house of the federal legislature has the power of the purse.
All federal monies can be conditioned on being in compliance with all supreme court rulings.
It would be fun to see Biden vetoing bills because they require following the law.
The power of the purse sounds great but when the Federal Government has been carrying on for a few decades with "continuing resolutions" in violation of their own budget laws, whose only purpose is to avoid "shutting down the government" it kind of loses its significance in the real world.
And when Papa Joe can spend about $1T without any Congressional approval, the “power of the purse” seems to have a hole in it.
I've said it before, the check on Presidential overreach is the veto.
In a less partisan world, the president willing to spend hundreds of billions without approval of the house would be scared of that, because Congress would jealously guard its enumerated powers.
But our world is now party over everything else. All or nothing, and there's no Eisenhower to send troops to march a gun owner through city hall to get his carry permit as prescribed by the Court.
in my world those state officials go to prison for a very long time.
Well, alternate universes aside, there are a number of steps in the real world that would have to happen before they go to prison (not counting the elimination of qualified and absolute immunity). For example, under what Federal law would they be charged and prosecuted for ignoring Supreme Court rulings? Violation of the Second Amendment rights of every citizen in their state?
Going to prison for clearly and repeatedly defying court rulings, esp supreme court rulings, should be a goal, albeit a long term one. I mean, how many fucking times on both the left and the right do we need to suffer lawmakers saying, "fuck peoples rights as expressed by the supreme court or the constitution, we're going to do it anyway". That shit stops only when there is a real threat that a lawmaker or lawmakers may go to fucking prison for doing so, exactly the same way hoping they get voted out of office doesn't. And that should mean that everyone who votes yes goes to prison for violating everybody's rights.
Do I need to remind people that the same side that accused cops of hunting down and gunning down unarmed Black men, that accuses the criminal justice system of being systemically racist, is the same side that opushes for stricter gun control laws that will be enforced by these very same cops in this very same system?
I was about to make the same point. These are the same people who have been insisting for the past two years at least that our criminal Justice system was purposely designed to oppress Brown People. These are the same people who have been likewise insisting that any time a police officer has contact with a Brown person for any reason, that Brown person’s life is in jeopardy. But they are all for a law that will give police officers continued justification for frisking and arresting Brown people.
Told ya. It's all based on an illusion of unity and the Great Unifier has been spotted behind the curtain.
#Adultsarebackincharge. #Wrong,but within normal parameters
leftists have no respect or use for the rule of law. they just don't care and never have.
NJ is a tougher nut to crack than NY. At least the latter has upstate to counter balance NYC. NJ is just cities with vestigial countryside dragging along behind.
There are four counties out of 21 that are reliably republican: Morris, Monmouth, Sussex and Ocean. Every other county is either deep blue or at least purple. The last two counties I named are relatively low in population, and a republican wins as governor only when he or she carries Morris and Monmouth overwhelmingly.
Reducing the number of excess democrats to a more….. manageable level would do wonders for those states.
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Of course it's unconstitutional and will never be enforceable. How much money do these woke lib states blow on virtue signaling before the citizen sheep vote the idiots out?
Remember people, republican's are not our friends on this either. They will disarm us as soon as us useful idiots are not needed, just like Hitler. You believe any cop out there thinks citizens should be armed? They will be the ones who show up at our homes to take our are after dems and repubs determine we are not needing any. Repubs bitch about Jan 6 but WHAT are they doing to get those still falsely imprisioned out of jail? Nothing, like they always do. Time for those two parties to be fired
The Republicans are bad, but nowhere near as bad as the savages like Eunice Lee.
"We know that criminals have nothing to do with crime," explained Coughlin. "So we leave them alone. Just as clouds have nothing to do with rain. And words have nothing to do with meaning."
Thank you for sharing! Keep up the great work!
As inconvenient as the constitution might be to Democrats and other power-hungry scumbags, it is nevertheless binding upon all governments at all levels in this country, unless the people of some state decide to secede, and that didn't work out too well for the Democrats the last time they tried it.
-jcr
It's pretty clear that the court needs to quit fucking around and just rule that constitutional carry is the law of the land. If NY and NJ don't want to issue permits that nobody needs, they can go fuck themselves.
-jcr
So much of the problem we have had with the conflict between the Supreme Court's reading of the rights in the constitution is the ever-broadening Incorporation Doctrine that has made the Constitution like anything from a straitjacket to a suicide pact.
As what was seen as the logical extension of the plain applications to the states of the post-Civil War amendments, the 60s Warren court decided to apply many more of the amendments to the states and localities. Most of the application was done to suit the present political taste, especially of the elites.
So about 15 years ago, "conservatives" figured turnabout was fair play and began to apply the "plain words" of an 18th c clause that had not been effectively challenged or shaped since it was written and flintlocks and 10 lb-ers were the pinnacles of firearm technology. The result was a "conservative" court insisting that many states act counter to the wishes of its voters, even when acting in pursuance of life, along with liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Ah, well. Let's make Alabama allow abortion on demand and NYC allow their residents to open carry AR-15s and watched 'em fight because we love our country so. What a glorious experiment would ensue.
Here we are, once again, begging the federal courts to enforce our fundamental right to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Okay, that’s probably unfair. Bruen is an important pro-Second Amendment case, as is Heller. Still, the Court’s “dangerous and unusual weapons” language in Heller created an opening through which the circuits – over a decade plus of litigation – have allowed hostile states to drive a Mac truck of “assault weapon” bans.
With Bruen, the Court – by approving government permitting as a lawful prior restraint on both possession and public carry, albeit with some limitations on qualitative government decision-making, have given hostile states the green light to continue burdensome and arbitrary regulatory regimes, backed by felony criminal penalties, intended to make exercise of the right to carry absurdly impractical, if not impossible – again to be worked out (or not … Hello? … Supreme Court? … Is this thing on?) over years of costly and frustrating slow litigation.
I can think of statutory and jurisprudencial/doctrinal remedies. I’d be happy to hear anyon else’s. I’m reminded, though, that politics is the art of the possible. From my lips to God’s ears….
So the lobby whose sole preoccupation is that there may be a crippling shortage of guns needed by bounty hunters to chase down godless pregnant women seeking to flee Christianization (and to shoot hippies latinos and blacks) is having trouble convincing legislators of the purity of its motives? This makes restoring Libertarian spoiler votes to their pre-anarcho-infiltration leverage all the more pressing if women are to enjoy 13th-Amendment protection.
What's the big deal? Germany passed Kristallnacht gun laws to keep guns out of the hands of selfish non-Christians. Today Germany is crowded with illegal immigrants streaming there in search of a better life, so common sense gun legislation must've worked out well for them.
French girls don't shave under their arms. Not hot.
If NJ decides to not follow the S.C. decision on 2nd amendment rights how can the leftists States expect anyone to follow anything passed by the government regarding abortion laws passed nationwide as decided in the last S.C. decision on Roe passed it on to the States for their consideration.
It's not for girls, it's for trannies.
I'm willing to overlook that. There are a lot of very nice looking women in France.
Just buy her a razor and some deodorant.
#TransWomenAreWomen you science-denying bigot. Even when they have ladydicks and facial hair and Adam's apples.
but the gearbox in my truck works just fine. I don't need another trannie.
That would explain my not clicking on the link.
You would think a libertarian bastion like Reason wouldn't be populated by so many monsters. LadyDick is literally the most natural sex organ on God's Green Earth.
Nuh-UH! If they were women, hooded Republican bounty hunters would be chasing them with pistols to force them to reproduce.
For real, France is full of beautiful women.
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German courts were packed with nazi eugenics freaks too. They were arrested and haled into the Judgment at Nuremberg along with Positive Christian SS officers, Field Marshals and whatnot. Before HUAC, the Dies committee investigated Silver Shirt, Bund and other centers of nazi infiltration. So it has happened here too, but never for long. (The Limpwick kluxer is going into the Moot Lewser bin)