How Corporations' Good Social and Environmental Intentions Undermine the Common Good
An excerpt from The Next American Economy: Nation, State, and Markets in an Uncertain World.

The Business Roundtable—an association of America's leading CEOs—committed itself in 2019 to "modernizing its principles on the role of a corporation." In the past, the group explained, it held that "corporations exist principally to serve their shareholders." But "it has become clear that this language on corporate purpose does not accurately describe the ways in which we and our fellow CEOs endeavor every day to create value for all our stakeholders, whose long-term interests are inseparable."
That term—stakeholder—represents a significant shift. But it did not emerge from nowhere. There is an entire historical and political apparatus underlying it that has led to results that are decidedly unfriendly to free markets.
Who are these stakeholders? The Business Roundtable statement invokes "customers, employees, suppliers, communities, and shareholders," but that isn't the only definition. One scholar identified no fewer than 593 different interpretations of who qualifies as a stakeholder. R. Edward Freeman, a prominent stakeholderism booster, has argued that stakeholders include "any group or individual who can affect or is affected by the achievements of the firm's objectives." Such all-embracing conceptions underpin what is called pluralistic stakeholderism: the theory that companies must consider the effects of their choices on potentially infinite numbers of stakeholders—even to the point of requiring businesses to consult with, if not receive approval from, such constituencies before making any significant decisions.
Shareholders and investors are thus effectively reduced to one of several entities to whom boards of directors and CEOs are accountable. This is to be realized through "pluralistic governance structures," which might range from advisory boards to councils endowed with governance teeth.
From Voluntary to Compulsory
One way the stakeholder model is being advanced in American business, especially in publicly traded companies, is through efforts to mandate environmental, social, and governance (ESG) disclosures. For individual and institutional investors especially concerned about, for instance, how the companies they invest in treat the environment, ESG allows them to align their investment choices with their environmental commitment.
Many businesses have responded to investor demand for such alignments by setting up funds described as ESG-compliant. Other businesses have voluntarily embraced ESG disclosure principles put forward by nonprofit groups like the Sustainability Accounting Standards Board. These companies freely disclose how their internal practices and investment choices align with principles that such nonprofits regard as important. Examples might include sufficient adherence to transparency requirements, or whether a business has embraced quotas based on race, gender, etc., in its hiring practices.
If a business chooses to embrace such approaches to investment, to submit itself to assessment by various activist groups, or to adopt hiring practices that actively discriminate on grounds of race, gender, etc., it is free to do so—though it might find itself liable to anti-discrimination lawsuits for violating the equal protection principles of the Constitution and the Civil Rights Act of 1964. But what happens when these approaches are not voluntarily chosen?
ESG principles have been thoroughly incorporated into strategies for making businesses accountable to large numbers of stakeholders. One article in The Harvard Law School Forum on Corporate Governance outlined this possibility: "If the stakeholder model represents an emerging model for the strategic vision of a company, ESG…metrics can be used to assess and measure company performance and its relative positioning on a range of topics relevant to the broader set of company stakeholders in the same way that financial metrics assess company performance for shareholders." Some of the criteria the article identifies for assessing stakeholder performance include human rights, employee engagement, fair wages, minority representation, gender equality, sensitivity training, corporate philanthropy, equal opportunity and participation, and alliances with key organizations, councils, and institutions.
And this, in turn, can feed into efforts to mandate various ESG requirements as a way to force businesses to embrace expansive stakeholderism. Diversity requirements for work forces and boards of directors, for instance, feature prominently in ESG guidelines and have been embraced by institutions such as the Nasdaq stock exchange.
In December 2020, Nasdaq announced that it had filed a proposal with the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) to embrace new listing rules related to board diversity and disclosure. These included requirements "to publicly disclose consistent, transparent diversity statistics regarding their board of directors" and to adhere to rules requiring "most Nasdaq-listed companies to have—or explain why they do not have—at least two diverse directors, including one who self-identifies as female and one who self-identifies as either an underrepresented minority or LGBTQ+." The new rules required Nasdaq-listed firms to provide annual reports and aggregated statistical information about the self-identified gender and racial composition of their boards of directors using a board diversity matrix.
Nasdaq, it could be argued, is a privately owned financial services corporation and is free to require its members to embrace particular disclosure requirements. But it isn't as simple as that. Nasdaq has been designated as a self-regulatory organization and thus delegated a high degree of regulatory authority by the SEC and Congress. Some courts have held that this means Nasdaq is therefore a state actor and regulator and thus not purely a private entity.
Whatever the legal debates, eight months after Nasdaq announced its new diversity requirements, the SEC formally approved these rules. This didn't just give them legal teeth; it sent a message to the rest of the financial sector about the agency's priorities. This went together with efforts by social and environmental activists and particular institutional investors to persuade the SEC to mandate even wider ESG requirements across the entire investment industry.
As the legal scholars Paul G. Mahoney and Julia D. Mahoney noted last year in the Columbia Business Law Review, this would be a substantial and unauthorized departure from the SEC's "stated mission of 'protecting Main Street investors' and 'maintaining fair, orderly, and efficient markets'." It would, they argued, effectively require the agency to pursue public policy goals for which it "neither has expertise nor the political accountability to pursue."
It would also give executives and corporate boards more opportunities to ignore shareholder expectations by claiming their hands are legally tied. Indeed, in the 1980s and 1990s, many boards and CEOs lobbied for laws to let them appeal to stakeholder interests as a means of warding off investors demanding better performance or even to resist hostile takeovers. After all, the more stakeholders there are for a company's management to answer to, the less accountable those executives can be to any one in particular.
Corporatism, Hard and Soft
The goals of those seeking to entrench political agendas into business operations do not stop here. While running for president in July 2020, Joe Biden declared it "way past time we put an end to the era of shareholder capitalism." That same year, Rebecca Henderson of Harvard Business School contended that America needed a new capitalism with "a pro-social purpose beyond profit maximization and taking responsibility for the health of the natural and social systems." Similar sentiments have been echoed by progressive senators such as Bernie Sanders (I–Vt.) and Elizabeth Warren (D–Mass.), by conservatives who want employees to be allocated seats on company boards, and by World Economic Forum chief Klaus Schwab.
Schwab effectively revealed what he has in mind by reminiscing about postwar Europe: "There was a strong linkage between companies and their community. In Germany, for example, where I was born, it led to the representation of employees on the board, a tradition that continues today."
Here Schwab is alluding to "corporatism": an approach to organizing society whose roots can be traced back at least to the Middle Ages. As a modern set of ideas, it emerged in the 19th century, shaped by such thinkers as the French sociologist Emile Durkheim and the German theologian Heinrich Pesch. It attracted support from socialists, nationalists, Christians, progressives, and fascists.
Though there were many schools of corporatist thought, they have several prominent sentiments in common. Corporatists generally hold that private enterprise and markets generate excessive wealth disparities, weaken communities, diminish security, and undermine "solidarity." They believe that private property and free exchange are useful, but that they must be embedded in a legal and political framework that builds a consensus around specific social and economic goals. Corporatists often espouse the notion that every industry and profession should have organizations that embrace everyone who works in it. These corporate bodies would have the prime responsibility for deciding wages and conditions, and they would be the principal place for resolving disputes within industries, assisted by special tribunals that issue binding resolutions. These corporate bodies' activities would be coordinated by the state.
Different corporatists emphasized some of these ideas more than others. Many focused on establishing "codetermination," in which employees (invariably union officials) are allocated seats on company boards. Others were more concerned with creating those industry-wide, government-guided corporate bodies pursuing national goals.
That often included goals of an authoritarian nature. In a 1935 article for the journal Economica, the German economist Wilhelm Röpke demonstrated how Benito Mussolini was using corporatism to reinforce his fascist regime's grip on the economy and society. What might be called "hard corporatist" policies were also pursued in other fascist countries—Spain, Austria, Vichy France—and, following World War II, in Juan Perón's Argentina.
After 1945, European corporatism took softer forms. Christian Democrat–led governments sought to foster consensus among employers and workers within industries. They consequently established structures like work councils (whose leadership was dominated by union officials) that management was legally bound to consult.
In some nations, soft corporatism achieved constitutional expression. Article 41 of Italy's 1947 Constitution states that the "law shall provide for appropriate programs and controls so that public and private-sector economic activity may be oriented and coordinated for social purposes." Another corporatist provision appears in Article 46: "For the economic and social betterment of workers and in harmony with the needs of production, the Republic recognizes the rights of workers to collaborate in the management of enterprises, in the ways and within the limits established by law." Corporatist aspirations have even been integrated into the European Union's Charter of Fundamental Rights. Article 27 refers to the right of workers "or their representatives" (union officials) to be consulted about an enterprise's operations.
Some historians argue that soft corporatism helped Western Europe recover from World War II. Such arrangements, they maintain, secured the buy-in of businesses and unions into policies that helped many European nations overcome their grave postwar challenges. Over time, however, the same corporatist arrangements have had, or are likely to have, seriously negative effects.
Is Woke Capitalism Just for Show?
When businesses endorse progressive positions on political and social issues—as when Nike recalled its Betsy Ross flag–emblazoned shoes in 2019 after being counseled by activist advisers that the flag represented slavery, or when almost 200 CEOs of major firms signed a full-page New York Times ad that year describing abortion restrictions as "bad for business"—it is sometimes called "woke capitalism." In some cases, internal activism within these companies likely dovetailed with pressures from institutional shareholders who wanted their investments to cohere with progressive priorities.
Amid those developments, it's telling that corporate America's dalliance with the language and priorities of stakeholderism often turns out to be largely rhetorical. In their analysis of the corporate documents of the over 130 U.S. public companies that signed onto the 2019 Business Roundtable statement, the Harvard legal scholars Lucian Bebchuk and Roberto Tallarita found that none had added "any language that improves the status of stakeholders and, indeed, most of them chose to retain in their guidelines a commitment to shareholder primacy." The statement, they suspected, was "mostly for show."
Given these findings, why do CEOs sign such documents in the first place? The UCLA law professor Stephen Bainbridge has suggested three reasons. The first is that business leaders are trying to attract wealthy investors who see themselves as socially responsible. The second is to fend off regulation from progressive politicians. The third is that some CEOs want to insulate themselves from pressures from investors dissatisfied with their performance by suggesting that profit sometimes has to be sacrificed to promote various causes. Bebchuk and Tallarita agree with much of Bainbridge's analysis. CEOs, they argue, often engage in these activities to insulate themselves from investor oversight and to deflect political pressures for regulations that would diminish their autonomy.
Some on the right such as Sen. Ted Cruz (R–Texas) have indicated that they are considering using legislation to push back on ESG, an idea which has received verbal support from GOP figures like former Vice President Mike Pence. Here, they are following the lead of states that have stopped doing business with companies like BlackRock who, they argue, are using their weight as institutional investors to advance woke causes or to put pressure on the fossil fuel industry. It is unclear how Republican legislators would reconcile, for example, constraining investors from exercising their shareholder votes with once-standard conservative support for property rights and free markets.
Whatever conservatives decide to do, it is unlikely the various progressive groups pushing companies and institutional investors to embrace ESG will ever express deep satisfaction with corporations' efforts in this area. They are more likely to swear that the failure of American businesses to embrace stakeholder capitalism properly, or to integrate progressive priorities sufficiently into their internal company operations, simply proves the need to use government regulation to corral businesses down these paths.
Meanwhile, these trends will undermine the most important way businesses really do contribute to the common good. By pursuing shareholder value and maximizing profit, publicly traded companies facilitate choice in goods and services for consumers, provide wages and benefits to their employees, repay their loans to banks, and pay their taxes. They increase the total material wealth in society, allowing people who have never owned a share in their lives to realize goods ranging from health care to education.
Just as protectionism and industrial policy significantly compromise the workings of market exchange by using state power to privilege connected groups of businesses and political leaders, so too would a capacious, government-enforced vision of stakeholder capitalism. By blending politics and business, it would further shift the economy's focus away from meeting the needs and wants of 330 million American consumers and toward promoting the interests of politically connected businesses.
This article originally appeared in print under the headline "The Rise of the Stake Holders."
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Summary... The USA is no longer a Capitalist nation.
Our freedom index is worse than many communist/socialist nations.
So to pretend capitalism has anything to do with this is just wishful thinking by Nazi's.
Remember that day National Socialists conquered the USA?
Yep; me too.. It started with FDR and has been continuously growing ever since.
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started with FDR
Nope.
It goes back further than that. Might want to look up a scumbag named "Woodrow Wilson."
-jcr
Agreed! Also check out ol' Abe Lincoln! "Freeing Slaves, Enslaving Free Men" OH, OK, "Emancipating Slaves, Enslaving Free Men"
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Wilson, indeed. I rank him worst president, with FDR and Obama pulling up third. LBJ would be higher, but only 4 years.
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Our freedom index is not worse than *any* communist nation - and as for the socialist ones, it's an index intended to have a pro-state control bias. Ie, not a measure of individual freedom at all.
Get a grip.
RU to deny these problems didn't stem from National Socialist policies (governing) in the USA? I never said 'any' and I said 'many'.
Many includes any.
The USA's "Personal Freedom Score" is 24th..
Behind Germany, Japan, UK, Taiwan, Czech Rep, Italy,. etc, etc.
Our overall "Land of Free" apparently is about parallel to Japan.
UR correct; The USA isn't quite a 'bad' as Full-On recognized socialist/communist nations. (Your correction stands). But it is by no means "The land of Free" it was once founded to be (see above).
We traded the land of the free for the land of free stuff
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” It attracted support from socialists, nationalists, Christians, progressives, and fascists.”
All plausibly considered as collectivists where the group one belongs to is what counts – not your individuality / individual character.
Remember when MLK said he wanted people judged by their character and not the color of their skin
"Remember when MLK said he wanted people judged by their character and not the color of their skin"
Sad to say, this kind of thinking has now been declared to be RACIST! Example: BLACK lives matter is OK to say... "ALL lives matter" is utterly low-brow and despicable!!!
(Your life apparently only matters if you have attained the much-sought-after designation of being a "victim"... Butt it seems to me, that there is NO ONE who can properly define who is, and who is not, a victim, and to what degree!!! Me? I feel VICTIMIZED by this murky nebulousness!!! HOW do I properly attain certifiable victim-hood!??!?)
Skin color is the most important thing
It is unclear how Republican legislators would reconcile, for example, constraining investors from exercising their shareholder votes with once-standard conservative support for property rights and free markets.
It is very clear. They're hypocrites.
It's pretty clear to me that the investment firms that are putting this evil ESG bullshit ahead of the interests of their clients and their assets, are in violation of their fiduciary responsibility to their clients.
Fiduciary responsibility has a long history in our legal tradition. That is how this issue should be framed.
If individual investors instruct their brokers or investment plan managers that they desire to place a portion or even all of their portfolio into ESG-type funds, they should clearly be allowed to do that, and their wishes should be honored, even if we think it may be foolish. At that point they've made it clear that their interest is in environmental / socialist / woke nonsense instead of profit.
But, in the absence of such an explicit request, it should be generally assumed that people invest their assets to make a profit, and increase their wealth. Investment bankers who take it upon themselves to advance some social justice cause, at the risk of their clients, are not acting to further that interest. They are violating their fiduciary responsibility. They should be sued or even criminally prosecuted for violating that contract.
What shrike ignores is that government is the ones pushing a lot of this through regulatory pushes on the financing system as well as federal contracting. The government is already involved. Making it illegal for government to provide regulatory pressure in this manner would do wonders in slowing its growth. But that's not what shrike actually wants. He is fine with government coercion hidden behind regulation frameworks. It is only when Republicans push back on these frameworks he takes offense.
They totally pounced, tho
Is this your official support of ESG shrike?
It's also not very clear who the "republicans" are, or is this but one more hit piece on Desantis to keep lefty piles of shit like SRG happy?
Probably by striking down government regulations that require it. If companies want to vie for some ESG score, wise investors will demand a discount on the stock price.
Non ESG funds are already outperforming. This is even after taking into accounts of ESG funds excess costs of 5x the costs of pure index funds.
There might be a great opportunity for shareholder lawsuits against companies with some management pushing ESG at the expense of profits and shareholder value. And perhaps under a president Trump 2.0 or a president DeSantis, the SEC could be turned loose on these vermin as well.
Is it hypocrisy to (having established your belief in individual rights) shoot back at the person shooting at you?
The totalitarians are waging a war that they hope to win by convincing their victims to not fight back. Of course we would prefer not to have to fight, but when we need to, we need to.
The property rights are owned by the shareholders.
The management of any joint-stock corporation has a duty to make money for their shareholders, unless the organization is a charity. If they fail at this duty because they're fellating the corpse of Karl Marx, they should be fired.
-jcr
That ESG plan sure worked great in Sri Lanka. Where can we ban fertilizer next so more people starve? Let's also ban energy that's not "clean" so Europeans freeze this winter or go back to the old firewood for warmth. And snap up all the farmland so Bill Gates can tell us what to eat. Democrats = Maoists at this point.
https://www.humanprogress.org/sri-lanka-is-a-wake-up-call-for-eco-utopians/
It's OK though, because the EU considers wood harvested in the USA and shipped to Germany using diesel trucks and diesel ships and diesel trains, and then burned for heat or to produce electricity, to be 'carbon-neutral'.
https://twitter.com/DoombergT/status/1571063488860286977
Related:
https://xkcd.com/1162/
Ridiculous. The issue there isn't paper, it's having enough black ink to print a column that tall... 😉
They had a 98% ESG score. Their economy must be booming.
We can only hope the raging mobs slaughter their Marxist oppressors.
As far as Climate Change goes, I'm not a denier; we should be doing things that could help mitigate it. But I'm not going to unilaterally live in a cave and eat dirt to reduce my carbon footprint.
Especially since the dire consequences so often predicted have not come to pass as predicted, since no one ever talks about the potential positives that might stem from climate change (e.g., 10K years ago much of the Northern Hemisphere was covered with ice 1 mile thick, the climate changed and humans benefitted), and that it is obvious that the AGW "movement" is a cover for leftist politics bent on redistributive policies.
To wit...
Rep. Ocasio-Cortez’s chief of staff, Saikat Chakrabarti: “The interesting thing about the Green New Deal, is it wasn’t originally a climate thing at all...Do you guys think of it as a climate thing? Because we really think of it as a how-do-you-change-the-entire-economy thing,”
(OTTMAR EDENHOFER, UN IPCC OFFICIAL): "Basically it’s a big mistake to discuss climate policy separately from the major themes of globalization. The climate summit in Cancun at the end of the month is not a climate conference, but one of the largest economic conferences since the Second World War... First of all, developed countries have basically expropriated the atmosphere of the world community. But one must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world’s wealth by climate policy. Obviously, the owners of coal and oil will not be enthusiastic about this. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole.
Former U.S. Senator Timothy Wirth (D-CO), then representing the Clinton-Gore administration as U.S undersecretary of state for global issues: “We have got to ride the global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing in terms of economic policy and environmental policy.”
Emma Brindal, a climate justice campaigner coordinator for Friends of the Earth: “A climate change response must have at its heart a redistribution of wealth and resources.”
"Emma Brindal, a climate justice campaigner coordinator for Friends of the Earth: “A climate change response must have at its heart a redistribution of wealth and resources.”
Conservatives say the same thing. They realize that dealing with the issue will necessarily have profound repercussions on the economy, perhaps even understand this more so than Leftists do. The problem is that conservatives haven't come up with a solution to CO2 emissions that doesn't involve redistribution of wealth. The 'free market' solutions bruited about are laughable, like the notion we'll all get rich selling each other our sequestered carbon.
"...The problem is that conservatives haven’t come up with a solution to CO2 emissions that doesn’t involve redistribution of wealth. The ‘free market’ solutions bruited about are laughable, like the notion we’ll all get rich selling each other our sequestered carbon."
As opposed to the laughable notion we can get along just fine on wind and solar power, you blithering idiot?
Most conservatives look at CO2 as "that gas that plants need to survive" and see no reason to "sequester" it or reduce it.
Especially since the folks most loudly decrying CO2 pollution tend to have a far bigger "footprint" than, say, I have.
To paraphrase Instapundit: I will buy it is a crisis when the people who proclaim that it is a crisis act like it is a crisis
Yes, when H'wood watermelons start shorting their Malibu digs as a result of rising sea levels, I'll get serious about it, too.
"Most conservatives look at CO2 as “that gas that plants need to survive” and see no reason to “sequester” it or reduce it."
As long as conservatives can't or won't come up with a free market solution, others will have their way, and that will include redistribution. You should realize this. After me telling you, there is no excuse.
"I will buy it is a crisis when the people who proclaim that it is a crisis act like it is a crisis"
Again, leaving it to your ideological enemies to take initiative on the issue will lead to redistribution and other solutions you disapprove of.
"Most conservatives look at CO2"
Most conservatives understand that CO2 is a heat trapping green house gas. Feigning ignorance on the matter merely cedes ground to their ideological enemies.
The free market solution has already been happening dummy. Look at US vs China.
What you actually mean is a government mandated solution.
Thanks for telling me what I actually mean. And I will look at US vs. China.
It is what you mean. You literally asked for the GOP solution. Which means a government solution.
Sorry you don't understand basic logic.
"It is what you mean. "
Once again, I thank you for telling me what I mean. Third time's the charm?
What did you mean by gop solution? Think slowly.
I am tired of your non stop sea cucumbering.
In case anyone wasn’t convinced mtrueman is just here to spew nonsense.
Lol. Wow. This was worse than even Mike.
"This was worse than even Mike."
Not worse than the redistribution that's in the pike. And flinging insults pseudonymously on an internet comment board isn't going to stop it.
What insult? It isnt an insult to dumb people to be called dumb. It is factual.
Again. How the phrase gop plan not support a government plan?
Think slowly buddy.
“This was worse than even Mike.”
LOL, take it as a compliment, mrtrueman. If you’ve got the likes of JesseAz arguing with you, with all his dishonest tactics and as hominems, you must be doing something right.
And, before anyone goes there, that was not an endorsement of mrtrueman’s arguments above.
“you must be doing something right.”
“that was not an endorsement of mrtrueman’s arguments above.”
Ok.
Jesse is honest. You’re not.
Case closed.
I keep waiting for leftists to solve global warming with their plan, which so far is not being critically analyzed in any way.
"I keep waiting for leftists"
You're like all the other conservatives here. Waiting is not good enough. Leftists are taking the initiative, making proposals, polishing test tubes, measuring temperatures, wearing leather patches on their elbows, solving equations and doing all the other things that scientists do.
And yet global warming is still a problem. So much for that.
"And yet global warming is still a problem. "
And conservative's lack of desire or ability to propose a free market solution is another problem, all but guaranteeing a leftist redistribution of wealth.
Which equations?
"Which equations?"
How much of your wealth they can steal from you while you whine on the internet.
"Again, leaving it to your ideological enemies to take initiative on the issue will lead to redistribution and other solutions you disapprove of."
Expecting people like John Kerry to live the way they demand others do is more than reasonable.
Your problem requires absolute belief climate models are right. Which they are not.
Markets have already been working towards cleaner energy.
Lastly transition to nuclear would be the biggest benefit.
"Your problem requires absolute belief climate models are right."
No, science works on the principle of preponderance of evidence. There's a well established theory of greenhouse gases like CO2 trapping heat. In addition increased CO2 levels in the atmosphere have been observed and measured, as well as increased temperatures. The models will always contain inaccuracies, they are only models, after all. Models are never identical to that which they model.
"Markets have already been working towards cleaner energy."
CO2 emissions are not a matter of cleaner or dirtier. It's an inevitable result of burning fossil fuels. But you are correct about cleaner energy, to some degree. Soot, for example, is pollution, the result of improperly burning fossil fuels and not an inevitable result as is the case with CO2. Markets and government regulations have resulted in smaller soot emissions, but soot is not a major factor in climate change, at least to the extent CO2 is.
"Lastly transition to nuclear would be the biggest benefit."
For climate change, sure, that's one reason why China is expanding their nuclear program. But nuclear has its own problems, unrelated to climate change. Other benefits would be to follow the conservationists' creed, reduce, recycle and reuse. Better batteries, HVDC grid, research into controlled fusion and harnessing photosynthesis, are other avenues of exploration, but they will all require some global coordination, and that means markets won't be the sole answer and redistribution is here now, and will increase. Socialists seem bound to set the agenda if only because conservatives can't or won't.
The climate models don't work on a preponderance of evidence. They rely on primary assumptions that differ between each model set. I've already described to you the science vs the modeling which you admitted to being ignorant about.
If we are going on a preponderance of evidence then the evidence is the models are wrong as they all vastly overestimate the warming feedback from carbon.
What you assume is based on ignorance.
"They rely on primary assumptions that differ between each model set. "
If conservatives are unhappy with the models that climate scientists are using, there's nothing stopping them from formulating their own in accordance with conservative principles. I'm sure the climate would appreciate the change. If you have evidence, for example, that the greenhouse effect is bunkum, then publish it. A nobel prize may be in it for you, and we can all get back to more serious issues, like toilets for trannies.
"If we are going on a preponderance of evidence then the evidence is the models are wrong as they all vastly overestimate the warming feedback from carbon."
Models are not evidence. They're models. Scientific evidence lies in observing and measuring natural phenomena like temperature or CO2 content in the atmosphere.
Are you honestly this dumb? Is your assertion really we rely on models and if you dont like them create your own models to rely on instead? Nothing about the truth or usefulness of the models? Lol.
" Is your assertion really we rely on models"
No, science relies on theory, observation and measurement.
" if you dont like them create your own models to rely on instead?"
Someone has to create them. They don't create themselves. You seem happy that conservatives leave this creating to leftists, rather than doing some creating themselves.
Nobody actually does have to create them. Models go through three stages usually.
Verification: is it happening how I expect. Built off principles ot assumptions. This is where the models are at. It is useful for only estimating a hypothesis or plausibility of one.
Validation: does the model follow measured or experimental data. For climate models they all act differently py merely using assumption parameters to polyfit to prior data. The assumptions are not consistent between models. This means the models are not validated as they are still relying on prior assumptions and they are not consistent. It would be like implementing a first order model for a motor, but if the models chose different parameters for rise time, backlash, etc they wouldn't be accurate.
Accreditation. The ability to predict future behaviors of test or measurement. Not even close. They fail every time.
George Box once said all models are wrong, some are useful. In the case of climate models they are only useful in making a hypothesis.
You want to use them for policy. Mostly based on your admitted ignorance.
"You want to use them for policy. "
I am not interested in them. It's you who are obsessing over models and their shortcomings. I can and will redistribute your wealth without consulting any models.
Trueman isn’t dumb, just a dishonest fuck.
Thank you. That's the nicest thing I've read in all the discussions here about me.
And better than you deserve, all things considered. You know, we really spoil you lefties here.
Look at where the funding comes from for climate science and modeling. There is no funding if your hypothesis isn't DOOM. It is an entirely corrupt process because of government involvement. It is just fancy looking political science.
If conservatives are unhappy with the state of climate science, let them formulate their own models and fund research according to their principles. Failing to do so only cedes the ground to leftists, their ideological enemies. If you're going to throw in the towel without a fight, losing is the inevitable conclusion.
They have, but it gets written off as fringe nut jobs science. It doesn't help that some of it is crap. It is really hard to compete with 100-200 billion a year in climate funding from the UN each year that only goes to reinforcing the narrative. Then there is the amount each individual government spends on the same crap.
"They have, but it gets written off as fringe nut jobs science. "
Try again. Science is difficult and needs practice. Can't expect to get past the nut job stage on the first attempt.
Again, your entire argument rests on the political usefulness of the models instead of their accuracy or usefulness.
Youre a religious zealot.
What argument? Models are your hobby horse. You've been droning on about them in every comment you've posted here.
"Youre a religious zealot."
Jesus wept.
Yes. I actually understand things I make arguments about. You just push political talking points based on ignorance to the subject.
"Yes. I actually understand things I make arguments about."
The first thing you need to understand is climate models are not climate. The map is not the territory. Only a fool expects anything different.
Your kid conspire to discredit and destroy any alternate theories on climate science. Same with COVID. So fuck off with your ‘suggestions’.
You Marxist faggots stack the deck.
No, they just don’t like Pigou taxes.
1. Because it doesn’t allow them to justify ever more personal power.
2. That’s it.
CO2 is good , not bad.
And all that is happening now is the best nations are restricting and the worst are not and making good on our suicide.
Warmer weather has always been better for human health and prosperity. Always.
Hey, "it's happening, but it's a good thing" cuts both ways.
"Warmer weather has always been better for human health and prosperity. Always."
It's not always better for the crops we rely on to feed us. It matters little if that can of beans on the shelf is a couple of degrees warmer or cooler. It matters more to the bean stalks growing in the fields.
Are you even aware when the largest explosions in population occurred?
After modern medicine reduced infant mortality and modern chemistry introduced fossil fuel based fertilizers to farmers. However, we will always be reliant on crops for the food we eat, and crops will always be sensitive to the environment in which they are raised. You know this already though, so what's your point? Don't hesitate to state it plainly.
I will ask again. Before modern science when we're the largest explosions in human populations.
You seem to be very set from arguing from ignorance.
"Before modern science when we’re the largest explosions in human populations. "
The second largest explosions in human population took place before modern science, obviously. As Trotsky said, some questions answer themselves.
Do I need to ask a third time? Hint. It ends with warm period.
"It ends with warm period."
Like a lady's monthly cycle.
When you talk to people face to face, do they ever act both irritated and disgusted, then muse about beating you unconscious? Just curious.
Kept that deflection going all the way to the end, I see.
You could just say 'No, I'm ignorant'.
Where do we grow crops?
In warm places.
I live in a desert - we get two harvests a year. Temperate climates get one.
Mekong delta rakes off 7 harvests every 2 years. Averaging 3.5 harvests a year.
The climate changes constantly, and the idea that human produced CO2 is a major driver of that process is not only unproven but actually laughable given modern PPM of CO2 compared to the estimates of prehistoric values.
People are so ignorant it’s sad, but we are truthfully closer to mass extinction through lack of CO2 in the atmosphere. This is a fact, no matter how inconvenient it might be to the narrative.
"CO2 is a major driver of that process is not only unproven "
Proof is for mathematics. How do you propose to prove or disprove CO2 is a major driver? We could construct an exact replica of the planet and use it for experimentation, but that's not a serious proposal. As long as conservatives insist on unrealistic conditions, they will inevitably cede the issue to others.
And here you admit the climate models aren't based on truth despite arguing the opposite above.
"And here you admit the climate models aren’t based on truth "
Climate models are models. The name says it all. What part of the word model don't you understand? They model the climate. In a computer. If it's truth you're after, open a window and stick your head out. That's true climate for you. You'll never find it in a computer simulation.
If it’s truth you’re after, open a window and stick your head out. That’s true climate for you.
No, that is the current weather conditions. Different.
Stick your head out the window and keep it there.
Still not climate. Especially not global climate.
"Still not climate."
Same could be said of these climate models you are obsessing over. They are models, only models, not climate.
This is honestly like discussing something with a 5 year old.
He’s already on record admitting he posts nonsense for the sake of it. It’s best to just mock his stupidity.
Yes. Yes he is:
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
Spouting nonsense is an end in itself.
The beatings he received as a child were lacking both frequency and severity. His parents failed him.
It is. But is has been entertaining to read, if frustrating for you.
Thus, Mtruemen staked out the position that climatology is a religion.
Well played?
Maybe if you pray a little more sincerely, god won't let those nasty socialists redistribute your wealth. Or just keep whinging on internet comment boards.
"People are so ignorant it’s sad" <----------- WELL SAID...
And wildly Sheeple Minded (followers of indoctrination)...
To believe a temperature difference ?average? of 1-deg over 10-years is any sort of news let alone emergency or even concern-able news instead of probably just test equipment inaccuracy just really tops the cake of chicken-little and the sky if falling. Then to take that ant hill and pretend it's a mountain created by internal combustion engines more than natural forest/grass fires is inconceivable moronic.
Or how about having 'faith' in 'scientists' who's dooms-day keeps changing year after year after year?? Or have multiple predictions models of which NOT-ONE materialized?? Like a good-ol buddy who will pay you back tomorrow or after this loan. They just have 'faith' it will happen someday.
AND then to top it off by arming their 'moronic faith' with Gov-Guns that must regulate all world-peoples energy?? <-------- That.. That Alone is why their is such 'faith' in such a 'moronic faith' fairy tale.
This nation would be in 100x times better shape if only 'reality' could be armed with Gov-Guns and that's still but a long ways away from an actual USA in which only Liberty and Justice were ensured with GUNS (Land of the Freedom to make some mistakes)...
It really shows just how far off-path the USA is....
Correction 1.8 deg in 150-years.
"1.8 deg"
Kelvin or Celsius?
Kelvin and Celsius are the same order of magnitude idiot. To calculate Kelvin add the degrees Celsius to 273.15 (because absolute zero is -273.15° C). So an increase in one degree Kelvin is the same order of magnitude as an increase of 1°C. Fuck, you're a moron. This 0°C is 273.15 ° K. An increase of 1° C is an increase of 1° K. Lecturing about science and you don't even know basic science principles.
The real question here is whether he’s more excruciating to deal with than Pedo Jeffy. Sometimes it’s a tough call. Although they exhibit similar levels of faggotry.
There is no facepalm great enough to demonstrate the embarrassment that you just laid upon mtrueman.
But it is an example of the bigger issue of people who are clearly not informed on an issue still operating with strong opinions on the issue.
"Kelvin and Celsius are the same order of magnitude idiot."
I knew that. Hence the question. You're not the most subtle of readers, are you?
Humans have no discernible impact on climate patterns. The climate cabal is a blatant delivery system for global Marxism. It’s supporters should be removed from any positions of authority.
+1000000000 Well Said!
Who's to say concessions such as these weren't a significant factor in keeping communists from sweeping into power in nearly all of Europe after the 2nd world war? And who's to say they won't continue to help with that in the USA in the future?
Given these findings, why do CEOs sign such documents in the first place? The UCLA law professor Stephen Bainbridge has suggested three reasons. The first is that business leaders are trying to attract wealthy investors who see themselves as socially responsible. The second is to fend off regulation from progressive politicians. The third is that some CEOs want to insulate themselves from pressures from investors dissatisfied with their performance by suggesting that profit sometimes has to be sacrificed to promote various causes
Bingo
Why are these people afforded the notion of good intentions?
The article betrays the headline writers own biases.
And not much else.
Huh? I’ve encountered this thinking before in the commentariat.
Acknowledging someone may have good intentions (as opposed to demonizing them) is considered as some kind of stamp of approval.
That just isn’t how it works with those of us who are willing to acknowledge peoples’ good intentions. When we say someone may have good intentions it is not intended as some high moral praise of them or approval of their actions. In fact, it is implicitly calling the person with good intentions a bit stupid.
You’re pretty inconsistent with acknowledging people’s good intentions.
He also lacks integrity and credibility.
Because sea lion, you use good intentions to defend your side while castigated those you disagree with as having bad intentions when you disagree.
Example: your attacks on DeSantis for shipping migrants to a sanctuary city while excusing MV for shipping them out.
DeSantis blatantly exposed the utter hypocrisy of the open borders sanctuary city crowd. For these shitweasels to pretend anything otherwise is ridiculous.
They’re just a bunch of retarded clowns.
BIAS!
Are you at all embarrassed by your attempts at gaslighting, or is there some other reason that you keep doing this?
Because EVERYTHING can be defended by saying there’s good intentions behind it, but it’s signaled out in specific cases where the writer doesn’t want to come down too heavily on the policy.
Everything Reason hates-tariffs, immigration restrictions, mean tweets-there’s actually well intentioned people behind them. They’re trying to do something they think achieves a net positive.
The war on Drugs was built on good intentions! It's for the children!
I’m sure it’s a total coincidence that you give progressives the benefit of the doubt and accept their claims of good intentions at face value but don’t extend the same courtesy to anyone right of Obama.
Anyway, if one is interested in actual progress and making our nation a decent one to live in, then acknowledging good intentions is an essential negotiating tool.
Demonizing one’s opponents may feel good, but it ain’t going to get you anything you want.
Fuck off and die, you steaming pile of lefty shit.
Good intentions is a cultural tool used to make excuses for your side. See benevolent dictatorships. Mao used the same argumentation.
There is zero evidence that you're interested. Yesterday you lied about vaccine mandates existing. What will it be today? Gaslighting on climate?
You LIED. It was proven. You don't get the benefit of the doubt anymore.
Lying Liar. Shame.
https://reason.com/2022/10/14/another-analysis-suggests-mandatory-reporting-laws-may-be-doing-children-more-harm-than-good/?comments=true#comment-9746900
Lying Liar.
Hahahaha, holy shit you totally curb stomped him with that.
Bravo!
Our nation was already a great one, getting rid of you and your fellow travelers will MAGA. Things would have been better than ever if you scumbags hadn’t lied and cheated your way into installing Biden. We wouldn’t be heading into a massive depression. We wouldn’t be facing down a very possible WW3 and even nuclear Armageddon. We wouldn’t have a broken, open border. We wouldn’t have so much rampant crime. We wouldn’t have an emboldened Chin, Iran, Russia, etc.. we wouldn’t have a looming energy crisis of historic proportions. We wouldn’t be seriously discussing the surgical mutilation of our children. And so much more.
Every last bit of this is of you and your fellow travelers. By rights you should all be slaughtered and rendered nothing kore than a footnote in history and a cautionary tale. Fortunately for you, the American people are still fundamentally decent, and don’t have the stomach for that.
“While running for president in July 2020, Joe Biden declared it "way past time we put an end to the era of shareholder capitalism."”
First time hearing this, somehow.
Ok, then I say it’s time to put and end to Marxism and the democrats.
It's not good intentions, it's keeping activist employees and government bureaucrats and Twitter mobs off their backs.
This is a big deal. Sounds like major trade warring with China.
I’m blindsided by it, as I didn’t know it was in the works. I’m still trying to grok the implications:
https://fortune.com/2022/10/13/chinese-americans-china-chip-export-ban-biden-us-semiconductors/
You mean you're still trying to rationalize a narrative to protect Joe.
There’s a paywall that I’m too dumb to get around, but apparently there’s “hundreds of Chinese-American tech executives working for the country’s tech companies—and perhaps (the PRC will) force them to choose between their citizenship or their job”.
Meaning that there’s hundreds of executives that hold Chinese citizenship working in the American semi-conductor industry? And that the red bastards back home are “threatening the citizenship” of said executives due to the US trade embargo with China over chips?
We’re as stupid as the day is long in this country if we have “hundreds of executives” in our tech industries that are Chinese citizens. Maybe fucking congress should look into how that happened. I wonder if it had anything to do with these corporations being up to speed on their current required “stakeholderism” proclamations.
It isnt like I could link to dozens of examples of corporate and trade theft from dual nationals of China.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/chinese-citizen-convicted-economic-espionage-theft-trade-secrets-and-conspiracy
https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/dual-canadianchinese-citizen-arrested-attempting-steal-trade-secrets-and-computer
Or that the costs are in hundreds of billions a year.
https://www.science.org/content/article/china-s-theft-us-trade-secrets-under-scrutiny
It’s the other way around. The new regulations affect American citizens working in Chinese companies.
we should terminate ALL trade with communist china. immediately.
Unfortunately it’s not that simple. It will take time to disentangle ourselves from them, but you’re not wrong.
I work in this industry. We don’t make the chips, but we make products used in processing them. Almost all of our semicon products go to Asia.
This business has fallen off a cliff in literally a couple of weeks. From hair on fire busy to nearly nothing.
Lying Liar lies again.
You can't 'grok' anything. Just type whatever is printed on your bullet points letter and stick to that.
Independent thought is not his strength.
We need to disabuse ourselves of the notion that these intentions are good.
Why?
Because they have not sufficiently proven that their intentions are good.
Nor do I want them deciding what is good for me.
So, we assume bad intentions by default?
What is wrong with a default setting of “I don’t know.”
Now you get it.
Dishonest shit does not get it.
Unless he is willing to admit his error and acknowledge that the headline represents a form of inherent bias that grants privilege to ostensible goals the author deems worthy of advancing.
Yeah, Mike Liarson really spun himself in a circle from when he responded to your post above.
Thomas: Why are they afforded the notion of good intentions?
Dee: Why shouldn’t they be?
Paul: They haven’t proven they have good intentions.
Dee: Why not “I don’t know?”
She’s too stupid to realize what just happened, though.
Too dishonest to.accept she did it to herself
Have always gotten that.
He was actually clear that the intentions don't matter Mike.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
There is a reason that saying exists. Tyrants often claim they have good intentions while they are enslaving the populous.
This is the reason ones intent should always be questioned.
Thank you for making my point. You have just executed an awesome own goal.
Because it is still an impediment on liberties even if they claim to be doing it for your benefit.
It doesn't really matter what the intentions are, those are unknowable at the end of the day. What speaks the loudest are always results.
Agree.
Which is why it isn’t conceding much to acknowledge someone may have good intentions.
I couldn't care less about the individual beliefs of the folks to whom I've entrusted the management of my retirement funds. Their mandate is "Take my dough. Invest it in the best ways to make me as much more of it as possible."
Acting on any factors which would distract from that simple premise without my express direction would immediately result in my taking my business elsewhere.
If you have a pension you dont have that decision making authority. It is why some states had to write it into law that pension fund managers can only consider returns.
"We need to disabuse ourselves of the notion that these intentions are good."
You're barking up the wrong tree. There's no reason to doubt the good intentions of corporate leaders like Gates or Branson, etc. The problem lies in their intention to make profits, exploit the situation and game the system for their own gains outweighs their intentions to do good and contribute to a solution.
The intentions of Gates and Branson are not 'good.' They are self serving and self aggrandizing.
Virtue signaling benefitting nobody else.
I need to brush up on my mind reading skills, obviously.
You should focus on your ignorance instead.
Ignorance or something else. Either way what is indisputably obvious is that he only applies it in one direction.
I'm just as evil as Gates, et al. Carry on with your virtue signalling. I'm sick of your sea cucumbering.
It’s become clear your faggotry levels have elevated.
"virtue signalling"
LOL. It's called skepticism. Something you cannot even understand.
But hey, way to feebly try to turn a word's proper application around 180 degrees.
How very lefty of you.
Because Gates and Branson are evil. Soros, too, right?
“By their fruits ye shall know them.” - Matthew 7:20
And hoo lordy, you know you're living in some serious through-the-looking-glass upside-down-world shit when you're cheering on the EU parliament.
In some ways the EU parliament is more democratic and representative than the parliaments of the member nations. Nigel Farage, one time leader of UKIP, for example, tried and tried again to get himself elected to the House in London. He failed every time. He was only successful when he tried for a seat in Brussels.
There is a difference between how a member is elected, and how much authority the body holds. From my understanding, the EU Parliament is largely a rubber stamp for higher up councils and few real decisions are made at the Parliament level.
In that case, 'cheering on the EU parliament' isn't of much consequence.
there are no "good social and environmental intentions". does not exist. these corps that support esg, etc. are simply pushing their leftist narrative. these people hate this country, the constitution and our way of life. their goal is to destroy the country.
Good Social and Environmental Intentions
The only way a Reason writer could describe these intentions "good" is if they were fundamentally sympathetic with the intentions.
For instance, might we describe the people trying to ban abortion as having good social intentions, even if the results my have negative knock-on effects on women's rights?
Sure, they have good intentions.
By the way, as discussed on a recent Reason Roundtable, quite a few Reason staff members are anti-abortion.
Where are their articles. Or is editorial control not part of what they do at the site?
Those wouldn’t generate 300+ comment sections.
It was noted above that at best, their intentions can't be known, you agreed and asked "what's wrong with 'i don't know'". You flip flop more than a fish on a dock.
So either we're going to produce editorial comments in our journalism declaring the intentions of people making contentious political decisions, or we're not.
If one can declare the intentions of DIE consultants in corporate America and CRT curricula in public schools as "good", then we can, with 100% consistency declare the intentions of someone who wants a total ban on abortion as "good". Misguided? Possibly. Wrongheaded? Possibly. But it would be 100% consistent to declare their intentions good. They are, after all, trying to save unborn children.
The writers here are far too shallow and uneducated to grok this.
The only stakeholders are the ones who buy shares.
Everyone else is a mooching leech on a fascist power trip.
Reason endorsed NJ housing thugs speaking to private developers: “You can build all the free market housing you want, as long as 20percent of the project is affordable”. Affordable is yet to be determined.
The democrats and World Economic Forum are pulling a New Jersey mob play on big international corporations “Nice corporation you got there, it’d be a shame if you had to lawyer up and spend all your time fighting EOC &Climate lawsuits. It’d be easier to cooperate with us”.
These squabbles are largely pointless. If you assume that companies can and should maximize shareholder value, the next operational question is, “what do the shareholders value?” They could value profit maximization only. They could also value a multitude of other things. Asserting that companies can either maximize shareholder value or compromise profits is a false choice.
That’s an interesting twist. It was always understood that “value” here means money.
But it is similar to what what’s his name from Whole Foods has argued in the pages of Reason.
Cite?
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/investing/milton-friedman-social-responsibility-of-business/
“Commentators on Friedman are generally polarized between those who believe that businesses have a greater “social responsibility,” and those who feel the social mission of business is making profits, period…”
If you have a New York Times subscription (I don’t), you can read the original Friedman article.
I don’t grant Friedman the authority on what shareholder value is.
When one uses the phrase “maximize shareholder value” it harkens back to Friedman’s article.
Anyway, like I said, I wasn’t criticizing you so I’m not going to let you drag me into an argument.
I really feel no obligation to be referring to topics I’m not referring to.
If you want to avoid an argument, fine, but in sitting your own narrow view of the world must be everyone else’s isn’t a good way to do that.
Knowing about Friedman's article and that the phrase "maximize shareholder value" harkens back to that article is basic Economics 101 knowledge.
Economic modeling of shareholders as valuing profit, and actual shareholder value, are not the same thing.
If you want to use a economic model where companies maximize profit, that’s all fine and good, but you shouldn’t expect actual shareholders to act like that, just like you can’t explain a lot of your own personal values as profit maximization, even though you work and make money.
Why is it people around here get into debates without even keeping an eye on what specifically the debate was about. They always wander off onto arguing tangential issues.
I said: “It was always understood that ‘value’ here means money.”
You asked for a cite and I gave you two.
I never argued against shareholders valuing whatever they want. My argument was about commonly-used meaning of the word, value, in the investment world.
“Always” and “in the investment world” are not the same thing.
And I don't grant you the authority.
If I change the definitions of enough words, I can easily show the climate is cooling.
“Value” is different from “profit.” You can look it up.
"[Friedman's] signature achievement was the near universal acceptance—in the world of business, anyways—of the idea that a public company must maximize profits and shareholder value, above all other goals.
"By this theory, corporate executives are employees, and a company’s shareholders are the boss. Shareholders, says Friedman, want to 'make as much money as possible while conforming to their basic rules of the society.'"
Why should all the shareholders in the world agree to maximize profit just because Milton Friedman apparently proved that they should?
I’m sorry, but this is like reading a quote “Milton Friedman definitely proved that every person should always maximize their income.”
Sounds made up to me.
Also, I don’t see the word “value” in your quote.
Also also “while conforming to their basic rules of the society” concedes a lot. What if I have higher standards than the basic rules of society? Should I just throw them out the window because Milton Friedman said so?
“Also, I don’t see the word ‘value’ in your quote.”
Fifth from the last word in the first paragraph.
So, if you were the owner of your own company, and you could increase profits but make yourself miserable, you would consider yourself obligated to make yourself miserable because Milton Friedman proved you ought to?
I say no, you’re not obligated to, and you shouldn’t, and clearly your own value and profit aren’t exactly the same thing.
If, at some point in the past, people assumed value and profit were the same thing, and advocated for everyone to maximize profit accordingly: that sounds stupid. I’d rather maximize actual shareholder value, because I want people to have their own individual right to do whatever they want with their property. That’s part of why I’m a libertarian.
"By this theory, corporate executives are employees, and a company’s shareholders are the boss."
Haven't economists written of the 'agency problem' and exposed this idea as hopelessly naive? It's similar to the view that a politician is simply an employee of the citizens who are the real boss. Sounds nice on paper, but doesn't work that way in practice.
"Stupid" is different from "Ignoramus". You can look it up and choose that which best describes you.
Can’t it be both?
The famous Reason debate:
https://reason.com/2005/10/01/rethinking-the-social-responsi-2/
“Note first that I refer to social responsibility, not financial, or accounting, or legal. It is social precisely to allow for the constituencies to which Mackey refers. Maximizing profits is an end from the private point of view; it is a means from the social point of view.”
I don’t see how that establishes that “shareholder value” means “financial profit only.” Do you have one of those?
Have a nice day.
I wasn’t criticizing you, by the way. I have some sympathy for your (and Mackey’s) argument.
Personally, as an investor, I don’t necessarily want maximum profits. I want to invest in a well-managed, stable company with steady revenue growth. “Maximizing shareholder value” could lead to some really bad outcomes when mixed with short-term thinking.
Sounds like “maximizing your value” and “maximizing profit” aren’t the same thing.
Are you not embarrassed by your obvious lying and gaslighting attempts, such as yesterday?
https://reason.com/2022/10/14/another-analysis-suggests-mandatory-reporting-laws-may-be-doing-children-more-harm-than-good/?comments=true#comment-9746900
Ike is just a useful idiot that has fashioned himself into an empty vessel. Ready to swallow whatever leftist pablum his Marxist masters should choose to impart on any given day. He would be enthusiastically comfortable with the kind of propagandist society depicted in ‘1984’.
Do people normally purchase stocks in order to effect change on socio-political beliefs?
If so, they might be a dumbass.
It may come as a shock, but people generally buy stocks to make a return on their investment. If you're buying them to effect some form of change, you're literally doing it wrong.
People purchasing stocks often have values in more than one dimension.
Yes, but if I enjoy flossing my teeth at night how exactly does that translate into an investment strategy.
Do you value clean water?
I'm sure that you find that non-sequitur 'clever'.
If you’re a shareholder, and the CEO produces two plans: 1. A plan that maximizes profit but pollutes your drinking water, or 2. A plan that makes somewhat less profit but keeps your drinking water clean, which do you want him to do for you?
If you pick 1, then you’re conceding that shareholders value more than profit, and want their company to be run accordingly. If you pick 2, you’re sticking to your principal of maximizing profits, but you are, in fact, a dumbass, as BYODB might describe you.
You're right, you shouldn't invest in companies that release plans that are straight up illegal. That is indeed a bad investment.
What if it was legal? Would you choose to contaminate your own drinking water, as long as it was legal?
Do you have a large inventory of strawmen or do you have to invent them one - by - one?
There are folks here who offer honest argument and then there are those who start with an agenda and continue to invent bullshit in the hopes others don't notice.
Fuck off, case #2
You don’t seem to know what a strawman is.
You know it’s different from a hypothetical, right?
"You don’t seem to know what a strawman is.
You know it’s different from a hypothetical, right?"
You don't seem to understand that claiming a strawman as a hypothetical is a distinction absent a difference.
Try 'facts', asshole.
In what way am I mischaracterizing the argument?
"In what way am I mischaracterizing the argument?"
In what way are you not?
It is possible that you are stupid enough to assume your bullshit is not seen as same by the rest of us, given that you are stupid enough not to recognize your bullshit as the bullshit it is. Lefty shits tend to be that stupid.
It is also possible that, as a lefty pile of shit, you hope your bullshit will be accepted as valid argument; you lose.
You have proven to be a watermelon by your own posts.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Polluting drinking water doesn’t really maximize profits. If exposed, it can destroy the company’s brand and and expose it to civil suits, regulatory sanctions, etc..
I’m pointing out a hypothetical that, just because a shareholder could maximize profits by doing something, doesn’t necessarily mean he wants to do it. In the real world, which is much more complex than my hypothetical, where everything can affect everything else, the impacts of any given profit increase scheme are more impactful across more dimensions. It’s not a given that shareholders value the one that maximizes profit the most, especially if other impacts are negative in ways important to the shareholder.
Ok, I'll be clearer. People may have multifaceted values but those values likely have no relation to their investments whatsoever. I may like burgers more than pizza, but this does not and should not mean that I don't invest in a pizza company with a better return.
Sure, people may invest in companies that share whatever value it is they're interested in but if the return is minimal it's a poor investment strategy even if it makes them 'feel good' about themselves.
Because, notably, investments for most people exist to increase wealth. One can tack on any number of second order values onto that, but since 'values' can be contradictory most people should probably stick to what gives them the best return unless somehow the company is committing war crimes or doing something utterly divorced from their ethics.
And to be clear, that is an onus that should be on the investor not the company they are investing in. For example, if you think oil companies are killing the planet perhaps don't invest in Exxon even if you stood to make a small fortune off their stock. This is because Exxon is an oil company and isn't likely to break into the vegan burger industry.
Of course, most people when faced with that trade off...will quietly invest in Exxon anyway. Because that's why they're investing.
I assume that shareholder value is based on the decisions shareholders make with their company. Wether they want to maximize profit or not is up to them.
I assume most decent people want to maximize profits while sleeping at night without feeling like an asshole. That could translate into lots of business plans, and I want to give shareholders the right to pick whichever one serves them best. It’s their money, after all.
You know, it occurs to me that the one pushing a fallacy here is you considering there is only one objective measure on what 'shareholders' think as a group.
There's little doubt that the shareholders have as varied values as one can imagine, yet they all come together with the agreement that they want to make money.
Curious that you call the only part they agree on the fallacy.
I haven’t used the word “fallacy.”
“We all like money, so I guess we should maximize that to the exclusion of everything else” isn’t a business plan, any more than “we all like breathing” means we should invest only in Oxygen.
Keep it up! Someone might believe the strawman is on the ropes; the rest of us can see the strawman kicking the crap out of you.
Fuck off, asshole.
One of those is born every minute, I'm told.
the only value is increased share price. period.
Says who?
Says the people who bought the company.
But then why do the shareholders often elect a board that chooses a CEO that doesn’t maximize share price?
Cite missing, bullshitter.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2014/03/07/why-tim-cook-doesnt-care-about-the-bloody-roi/?sh=179c1bb355f2
Mr. Cook replied –with an uncharacteristic display of emotion–that a return on investment (ROI) was not the primary consideration on such issues. “When we work on making our devices accessible by the blind,” he said, “I don’t consider the bloody ROI.”
“ Mr. Cook made clear that Apple would continue with energy sustainability and its other initiatives. Most of the shareholders went along with that: the NCPPR’s proposal received just 2.95 percent of the vote.”
This is what I don’t get: I have all of these examples of shareholders voting *not* to maximize profit, while others insist that shareholders only value profit. It’s simply not true: they idea is contracted by shareholders everywhere. Are they all doing it wrong? Wrong according to who?
"This is what I don’t get: I have all of these examples of shareholders voting *not* to maximize profit,.."
Looking back upthread, I see one where the return is already huge, and if the stockholder loses a penny or so to feel good, why, so be it.
Now, list the many examples. or STFU.
“ Looking back upthread, I see one where the return is already huge, and if the stockholder loses a penny or so to feel good, why, so be it.”
Which concedes the point.
“Now, list the many examples. or STFU”
Exactly how many shareholder meeting minutes do I have to find for you to understand reality?
Google the conflict mineral policies of corporations, and how they go beyond regulatory requirements, all with shareholder consent.
Do you really think all these corporations are going “rogue” and violating shareholder decisions with their environmental policies, their diversity initiatives, their conflict mineral policies, etc?
They might not be your values, but they are shareholder values, and they aren’t just profit.
"Google the conflict mineral policies of corporations, and how they go beyond regulatory requirements, all with shareholder consent.'
So those of us calling you on your bullshit are to search for 'evidence' that your claims are correct? How fucking stupid are you?
"Do you really think all these corporations are going “rogue” and violating shareholder decisions with their environmental policies, their diversity initiatives, their conflict mineral policies, etc?"
Beat on that strawman!
"They might not be your values, but they are shareholder values, and they aren’t just profit."
Claiming facts not in evidence; you really are full of shit, aren't you?
“ Looking back upthread, I see one where the return is already huge, and if the stockholder loses a penny or so to feel good, why, so be it.”
Which concedes the point.
No, shitbag, it calls you on your bullshit.
“Now, list the many examples. or STFU”
Exactly how many shareholder meeting minutes do I have to find for you to understand reality?
How 'bout more than one, steaming pile of lefty shit. You claimed 'many', you cited one.
Eat shit and die, asshole.
So exactly how many examples do I need to cut and paste for you? 5? 10?
I can find as many as you want. I assume two is too few because I said “many”. I can find hundreds quickly, how many would satisfy you, if that’s actually possible? 5? 10? Just let me know, and I’ll go through the trouble for your education.
https://www.asyousow.org/press-releases/2022/6/7/majority-of-independent-shareholders-call-on-alphabet-to-address-growing-water-risks?format=amp
Majority of Independent Shareholders Call on Alphabet to Address Growing Water Risks
https://www.conference-board.org/topics/shareholder-voting/trends-2022-brief-1-environmental-climate-proposals
Shareholder Voting Trends (2018-2022): Environmental and Climate-Related Proposals (Brief 1)
https://www.asyousow.org/press-releases/2022/6/8/caterpillar-shareholders-vote-climate-action-decarbonizing-industrials-sector?format=amp
96% of Caterpillar Shareholders Vote in Support of Climate Action — A Critical Development in Decarbonizing U.S. Industrials Sector
Big Oil braces for shareholder revolt over climate plans in proxy voting season
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/05/11/climate-big-oil-braces-for-shareholder-revolt-in-proxy-voting-season.html
69.9% of Costco’s shareholders vote to reduce carbon pollution and deforestation
https://environmentamerica.org/center/media-center/69-9-of-costcos-shareholders-vote-to-reduce-carbon-pollution-and-deforestation/
"Majority of Independent Shareholders Call on Alphabet to Address Growing Water Risks"
Hmm, another one where the return is already huge, and if the stockholder loses a penny or so to feel good, why, so be it.
And do 100 people constitute the "independent shareholders" and did they buy a share to protest?
And BTW, finding you picked a cherry does not 'concede the point'.
"https://www.conference-board.org/topics/shareholder-voting/trends-2022-brief-1-environmental-climate-proposals"
Self-serving propaganda sheet, tracking 'proposals'. Yawn.
Does it take tiny hands to grasp straws that thin?
https://www.asyousow.org/press-releases/2022/6/8/caterpillar-shareholders-vote-climate-action-decarbonizing-industrials-sector?format=amp
We'll see if they support it once the costs are counted.
https://environmentamerica.org/center/media-center/69-9-of-costcos-shareholders-vote-to-reduce-carbon-pollution-and-deforestation/
Ya know, everybody supports "free" medical care, until they see what it costs.
"But they already affect shareholder value: the shareholders voted for it because they value it.
Why can’t you see someone paying their own cost to get their own value? It’s kinda libertarian."
No, shit-for-brains, they haven't 'valued' the choice; they have not yet been required to pay for that choice.
Fuck off and die, you pathetic piece of ignorant lefty shit.
Those are just a few I took from googling “shareholders vote environment”.
Here’s my cite for everything:
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=shareholders+vote+environment
Try finding some after they begin to affect shareholder value, not feel-good proposals and surveys.
But they already affect shareholder value: the shareholders voted for it because they value it.
Why can’t you see someone paying their own cost to get their own value? It’s kinda libertarian.
"But they already affect shareholder value: the shareholders voted for it because they value it."
Voted for what, watermelon? And what metric do you offer to separate stYou have yet to provide an example of those willing to take a hit in the wallet to promote the bullshit you offer.
Suggest you spend less time searching for bullshit unicorn wishes and more learning something:
"...Revealed preferences are what we reveal when our stated preferences are met with reality. That reality can be negative, constraining our choices; or, that reality can be expansive in nature, forcing us to rethink our priors, collect even better offers, and reshape our own actual preferences..."
https://semilshah.com/2020/10/24/stated-vs-revealed-preferences/#:~:text=Revealed%20preferences%20are%20what%20we%20reveal%20when%20our,better%20offers%2C%20and%20reshape%20our%20own%20actual%20preferences.
"Why can’t you see someone paying their own cost to get their own value? It’s kinda libertarian."
Why can't you see that you are full of shit?
"But they already affect shareholder value: the shareholders voted for it because they value it."
And I shoulda' called the asshole Brian on this first:
Define "value" in objective terms, shit-for -brains.
They don't.
Once share prices start to drop the shareholders scream and dump the ESG board members and CEO.
That’s not the same thing as “only valuing profit.”
Go tell the Steelworkers Union that their defined benefit pension plan is bankrupt (oops) because their dues went into ESG stocks and performed yoy negative returns, on top of inflation.
Good times
Yes, it is exactly that:
Stated vs revealed preferences; 'gee it feels so good to - WHAT does that cost?!'
But if they wanted to maximize profits really deep down, they could have always done that.
“They’ll try to maximize profit when their business starts failing, soon enough” and “they only really value profit” aren’t the same thing.
"But if they wanted to maximize profits really deep down, they could have always done that.
“They’ll try to maximize profit when their business starts failing, soon enough” and “they only really value profit” aren’t the same thing."
I hope you're kidding rather than admitting abysmal ignorance.
Does the concept of 'stated/revealed preference' catch you by surprise, or are you just a fucking ignoramus?
"Maximizing profit" should be the default unless explicitly told otherwise.
If I wanted to donate to a cause, I would do so, not let someone use my 401k to donate on my behalf.
Indeed. As an example, of I were a Disney Coro shareholder, I would consider a shareholder lawsuit over Bob Chapek’s inane virtue signaling where he cost the company significant products and share value in his pointless fight with Governor DeSantis. Disney is an entertainment company. Not a grooming advocacy nonprofit entity.
You hit the nail on the head. There’s a major class action lawsuit opportunity here for 401k contributors and pension contributors. Board of Directors, fund and wealth managers, investment firms are not personally protected via qualified immunity.
Where are all the lawyers? This the class action of a lifetime
At this point, with all we've seen, the idea of giving the benefit of the doubt - assuming intentions are good - is bizarre to me.
The evidence shows their intentions are not good. Their intentions are more power in corporations, tightly leashed to and protected by government - fascism.
The 'g' (government) in 'esg' gives it away.
As usual the key concept here is freedom. Insofar as corporations are voluntary pooling of financial resources to optimize income to the investors from providing goods and services to the customers, it is a mechanism that can be more efficient than other alternatives for funding and managing those enterprises. Insofar as those producers compete with each other in a relatively free market, they become self-regulating. If the only regulation from outside comes in the form of laws that ensure that individuals do not get away with committing crimes under the cover of being part of corporate entities, then the system is not harmed thereby. The downside of corporate enterprises is that they are subject to "takeovers" by "investors" who are not interested in making profits from productive enterprise but, rather, who seek to destroy the enterprises or co-opt them for non-productive purposes. Investors should not be limited in their liability to damages (although they should not be punished for crimes they did not commit simply because they are shareholders); insider trading is a particularly abused non-crime that should be stricken from the books - investors assume that risk when they choose to invest! The concept of stakeholders is pure virtue-signaling for public relations purposes at best; and - at worst - is a craven effort to avoid the threat of government regulation that should not be allowed under the Constitution in the first place.
"...The downside of corporate enterprises is that they are subject to “takeovers” by “investors” who are not interested in making profits from productive enterprise but, rather, who seek to destroy the enterprises or co-opt them for non-productive purposes..."
Yes, theoretically, they are, but can you offer any examples of such in reality?
Also, I believe that an important role in business plays document management, and I can tell you that it's actually a challenge to find reliable tools to optimize paperwork. But not so long ago, I discovered https://www.pandadoc.com/pr-pitch-deck-template/, and I can tell you that such templates actually help running a business