We Told You Why and How California's High-Speed Rail Wouldn't Work. You Chose Not To Listen.
The New York Times newsroom illustrates what happens when you listen to the New York Times editorial board.

The infamous, $113-billion-and-counting California high-speed rail line between San Francisco and Los Angeles, which was supposed to be completed by 2020 for a cost of $33 billion yet has only begun tinkering on a 171-mile stretch in the Central Valley, is not really "an existing project," says former California High-Speed Rail Authority (CHSRA) Chair Quentin Kopp. "It is a loser."
Added ex-chair Michael Tennenbaum: "I don't know how they can build it now." And California State Assembly Speaker Anthony Rendon (D–Lakewood): "There is nothing but problems on the project."
All these quotes come from a much-discussed article in Sunday's New York Times detailing the grossly politicized decision making that has plagued the proposed bullet train ever since California voters foolishly approved an initial $9.95 billion bond measure to jumpstart it in November 2008.
"Only now," asserts author Ralph Vartabedian, "is it becoming apparent how costly the political choices have been. Collectively, they turned a project that might have been built more quickly and cheaply into a behemoth so expensive that, without a major new source of funding, there is little chance it can ever reach its original goal of connecting California's two biggest metropolitan areas in two hours and 40 minutes."
At the risk of nitpicking an otherwise useful autopsy, there never has been, at any stage of this living monument to political unseriousness and hubris, even a "little chance" that the S.F.-L.A. line would zip passengers between the cities in just 160 minutes, let alone deliver on the whole ragbag of laugh-out-loud promises that the state and federal political establishment delivered with a straight face.
"The Rail Authority claims it will hit average speeds that are not being achieved by any other high-speed rail system in the world," Reason Foundation Vice President of Policy Adrian Moore once observed. "A trip from San Francisco to Los Angeles would allegedly take 2 hours and 40 minutes, averaging 197 mph. France's TGV-Est train averages 174 mph, the TGV Paris-Avignon averages 159 mph, Japan's bullet train averages 159 mph, and Taiwan's high-speed rail averages 152 mph….Those are the fastest ones out there. And they can use light, fast trains, because they run on their own tracks. California will have to use heavier, slower trains because the plan is run on the same tracks as freight trains, and federal safety rules require heavier passenger trains in the event of a collision."
Those words, heavy on incontrovertible fact, were published in September 2008. Reason Foundation, the nonprofit that publishes this website, has for decades operated a public policy shop whose core areas of expertise have always included transportation (including rail), as well as California writ large. In August 2008, the foundation put out a 196-page due diligence report eviscerating the shoddy and shockingly expensive ($58 million already by then) work of the CHSRA, and predicting many of the pitfalls that have been plunged into since.
"There are no genuine financial projections that indicate there will be sufficient funds to complete Phase I, much less Phase II or any other phases," the report concluded. "It is possible that the system will either be built only in part or not at all….[The] system as envisaged in state statute appears highly unlikely to be delivered under the present plan….There is little likelihood that the passenger or revenue projections will be met, that the aggressive travel times will be achieved, that the service levels promised will be achieved, that the capital and operating costs will be contained consistent with present estimates, that sufficient funding will be found, or that the system will be profitable. It is likely that these circumstances will represent an expensive and continuing drain on the state's tax resources."
Even the crass, project-delaying political horse-trading that the Times focuses on was itself predictable at the outset by those who actually studied how massive infrastructure projects get done in the United States.
"[The project] is already turning into a money-grab for local governments and transportation authorities," the foundation's Adam Summers wrote in July 2008. "The wildly exaggerated claims of high-speed rail proponents and the attempts by legislators from across the state to put their hands into the high-speed rail money pot should serve as warnings against providing a commercial service with political means. In the private sector, businesses must satisfy consumer demands and put their own investments at risk in order to survive. Politicians, by contrast, do not have to live by economic realities. They can support any idea that sounds good at the time and keep dipping into the taxpayer well to pay for it, regardless of whether or not it makes sense."
Yes, the Reason Foundation is a libertarian think tank, interested in limiting the size of government and using market means to policy ends. But the foundation's transportation work in particular, spearheaded by the legendary Bob Poole, has long been respected across the political spectrum for its seriousness and attention to detail. And, in the case of the bullet train fiasco, that work was not an outlier.
"The Authority's ridership projections are considerably higher than independent forecasts developed for comparable California systems in studies by the Federal Railroad Administration, the University of California Transportation Center at Berkeley and in the recent Due Diligence Report," the foundation's Joseph Vranich testified to the California Senate Transportation and Housing Committee in October 2008. "The current proposal is untenable. The train will be slower than they say it will, will carry fewer people than they claim it will, and will cost much more than they admit it will."
Vranich was actually a bullet train enthusiast, pronouncing it "the first time I am unable to endorse a high-speed rail plan" (emphasis his). He painted a picture of a planning authority that hadn't even done the most rudimentary of homework:
I'd like to see high-speed rail built, but not this boondoggle.
High-speed rail holds great promise in certain sections of the country. But the work of the Authority is so deficient that if the current plan is implemented it has the potential of setting back the cause of high-speed rail throughout the United States. The Authority has not learned the lessons: What caused Texas high-speed rail to fail? What caused it to fail in Florida? What caused the prior project to fail between Los Angeles and San Diego?
A common element in the failures were high ridership estimates, low cost estimates, disregard for local environmental impacts and the planners losing credibility. The California Authority is repeating all of the mistakes as if they have never read a single page of history.
There is a point to rehashing these old arguments beyond saying we told you so. The fact is, these reality-based objections were widely known at the time. It's just that the people who otherwise fashion themselves as serious thinkers about public policy made the conscious choice to jettison rationality in favor of pie-in-the-sky dreaming.
Back in 2008, my former colleagues at the Los Angeles Times editorial board produced one of the most succinct examples of magical policy thinking you'll ever see:
The projections by the measure's opponents, led by the libertarian Reason Foundation in Los Angeles, are much less sanguine and more persuasive [than those by supporters]. If voters approve Proposition 1a, it seems close to a lead-pipe cinch that the California High-Speed Rail Authority will ask for many billions more in the coming decades, and the Legislature will have to scrape up many millions of dollars in operating subsidies.
And yet, we still think voters should give in to the measure's gleaming promise, because it's in their long-term interest.
Three years later, after the predicted pratfalls, the paper editorialized that, "Yes, the price tag has tripled and its completion date is 13 years later. But it's still a gamble worth taking."
The New York Times, whose sober reporting this week launched the latest public discussion of this colossal government failure, was right there editorializing in favor of it in 2014. "Despite modest investments, American lawmakers have not given high-speed rail the priority it deserves," the paper complained, before getting into some undergraduate-level policy sophistry:
California's plan to link Los Angeles to San Francisco by high-speed rail is expected to cost $68 billion. Critics argue that such services cannot survive without public subsidies and that the United States has few of the dense urban areas that have made such train services successful in places like France and Japan. But these arguments fail to acknowledge that most forms of public transportation are subsidized somehow by the government; the federal government puts up most of the money to build the interstate highway system. Skeptics also greatly underestimate the country's long-term transportation needs. The Census Bureau estimates that the American population will cross 400 million in 2051, and the country is becoming more urban, not less. California's population is predicted to top 50 million in 2049. That growth will put an incredible strain on the nation's highways and air-traffic system.
Note the tricks: Critics waved off, without hyperlink or citation, for not making a comparative-subsidy analysis that the Times itself fails to meaningfully enumerate. Zero cost-benefit comparisons of different transportation systems. Might as well just grunt "HAVE PROBLEM! THIS SOLUTION!"
We will keep repeating this expensive, life-disrupting folly until we meaningfully address the mindset that enables it. Former Washington Post columnist Robert J. Samuelson identified this mental trap way back in 2010:
President Obama calls high-speed rail essential "infrastructure" when it's actually old-fashioned "pork barrel." The interesting question is why it retains its intellectual respectability. The answer, it seems, is willful ignorance. People prefer fashionable make-believe to distasteful realities. They imagine public benefits that don't exist and ignore costs that do.
We told you so. You chose not to listen. This one's on you.
Bonus video: Meet the People Getting Screwed Over By Jerry Brown's High Speed Rail.
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You mean the paper that praised holodomore, the ussr, told people that the pols invaded Germany, and coroberates stories with the FBI to go after political dissenters is Un trustworthy? Say it ain't so
ENB hardest hit; is this a warning letter in her personnel file?
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The fastest average speed on a regular scheduled route is actually not 174 mph. It is the Beijing to Shanghai route in China at 186 mph. So 197 mph is not that far out of reach if the right of way is flat and banked on gentle curves. Time trials on the French TGV (cherry picked rail section) exceeded 357 mph !!! The Chinese claim 220 mph flat out top speed on their HSR.
The galling part is that it was a boondoggle when it was on the ballot back then. It promised 2:40 travel times between SF and LA, including through all those urban areas, and when later official estimates lengthened that, a damned rubber stamp court said that was not a violation of the initiative. All its backers promised so many people using it that every Californian would have had to buy three tickets a year. It required such tremendous capacity that trains would have had to leave every 5 minutes, and BART can't manage that rate reliably for its slow choo-choos. It required 200 mph trains running through 100+ miles of urbanity, requiring tunnels to avoid the sound from elevated tracks, so they compromised on slow surface trains, destroying even the pretense of being fast enough.
All this was evident in the initiative itself. The only surprise to me is that they were scared enough to start this Fresno-Merced boondoggle instead of bulling ahead with the full route.
As a for instance, they were predicting 100M passengers a year, if memory from 14 years ago serves. That's 300,000 a day, 150,000 from each end. If you have 500 passengers per train, that's 300 trains a day, 12 an hour, making no allowances for more commute hour trains. No high speed rail runs trains 5 minutes apart.
It didn't pass the most basic smell test.
Math is racist
Fuck off, Barbie 🙂
Or is it Ken now? He's probably too old now to transition legally, got to be more than 18 years old.
No idea. If it's less than 18, ask Shrike.
Arithmetic is racist.
A high speed link between LA and San Diego seems like a better idea. Once built, then keep expanding it further north until you eventually get to SF.
Right, because (a) there are soooo many places in between that need a high speed rail connection, and (b) as you keep extending it, all those intermediate stations can't be shut down, and now your 2:40 trip includes all those intermediate stops.
Oh, you want separate express and local trains? Now you need double tracking in each direction, if trains are popping past every 5 minutes.
Actually, LA-SD is one of the better rail corridors. For low speed, though.
You get there in the same time as a car without traffic, lots of communities in between, and they've invested a lot in the double tracking already because voters were dumb enough to approve a sales tax increase to fix freeway congestion and, of course, they didn't build a single free flowing lane on the freeways, but did double track for the commuter train nobody uses.
Converting to high speed would be stupid and expensive, but it COULD be done. And it would get some riders.
Expanding North from LA is the bigger problem, existing passenger rail goes up the coast to Santa Barbara, not on the proposed high speed route, and anything going up the central valley would require some pretty hefty engineering and eminent domain.
Also, Union Station isn't a through-station type, getting in and out requires switching and turning the train around, so they'd have to fix that. Cripes, the problems could fill a government report the size of a phone book.
Low speed rail doesn't work there either. Not much point in stopping at an intermediate community when you need to arrange local transport to do anything - may as well just drive there.
"better" -- comparative term. I used to use it quite often, though it has been many years. And, if you didn't have to get on a fucking bus and sit in traffic to get to LAX after you made it to Union Station, I'd have used it quite a bit for international flights.
But you are missing the context, what Lurkerkurt said upthread. My point was more that the corridor exists, it's well used by commuters now (or was pre pandemic), and things like right of way issues wouldn't be nearly the problem they would be of you were, theoretically, doing that post-Los Angeles pipe dream part of the high speed rail.
Going high speed from LA to SF is a fucking unicorns and fairy dust level pipe dream in comparison. And high speed between cities in the Central Valley? Fuck man, 100 miles of track at the speeds they'll run you cut the time to Fresno from 90 minutes to 60 minutes. Who fucking cares? Personally, every minute I'm not in Fresno is a blessing.
High speed rail from LA to Las Vegas would make more sense.
+1
Pretty sure that the casinos would be open to a public-private partnership.
Till someone comes up with a catchy acronym, the working name could be the "Take My Money" project.
The Central Valley Line already has that nickname.
I've taken the train from Ventura County to San Diego, quite pleasant. No slower than the traffic, and you can read a book, or enjoy the scenery, not constantly on the lookout for bad drivers.
I sure wouldn't want to take it at 200 mph though.
I was stranded betwen LA and San Diego during the first week of the Pandemic. I took the train down to San Diego to get a rental car and get my flight changed. Airlines were not taking calls to change flights. Nice, slow train. It has its uses but probably not making much money.
None of Amtrak's lines are making money.
Coast Starlight, if you're going where it's going, is much more pleasant than driving even though it's not faster.
Amtrak is saddled with union labor, including bloated retirement obligations dating back to when Amtrak took over all the passenger-rail retirees accounts in 1972.
If it were run like an airline with sane labor arrangements and no exorbitant backlog of retirees, many parts of Amtrak's network would be turning a profit.
Many drivers on the 5 are reading books or doing their nails or texting or shaving or some or all of the above. It's much harder to shave on the train.
good point
You can't even make that trip now on regular Amtrak without getting on a bus for a bunch of it, it was always a never going to happen thing.
Once they realized how unbelievably expensive all the real estate they'd have to acquire would actually be -- you are NOT getting anywhere near SF or Union Station using existing rail lines, much less at high speed -- they should have thrown in the towel.
Seriously, who wants this now? Even if it worked, it would only operate from Bakersfield to Fresno. From where nobody wants to be to where nobody wants to go.
But that's Government for you. Once a program employs some people, it will never be cancelled. Just like how we can't get on a plane without taking off our shoes and belts and being groped, 20 years after the problems that allowed airliner takeovers were remedied by simple policy changes. (lock the doors, if someone holds up a swiss army knife and says "I'm taking over the plane" you and the nearest 5 burly passengers beat the shit out of him)
It's a jobs program now. Folks see good paying jobs they can't be fired from while pouring money into their CalPERS accounts so they can retire in their 50s.
Politicians and unions. The fact that there won't be any passengers and that it will have to be subsidized by the federal and state governments in perpetuity is a feature, not a bug.
How is the real-estate expensive? They literally took the land from the farmers and haven't paid them yet
The people who own the land in the metro SF area have a bit more political clout than farmers.
Likewise, the landowners in the Valley and closer to downtown LA.
The exurbs of LA have grown massively and filled in a lot since these pipe dreams were first thought up in the 70s. If you want to follow this route…
Do this. Hit the google maps and click satellite. Then take a look at what’s between Burbank Airport and Santa Clarita. It ain’t orange groves and alfalfa farms you’re going to have to eminent domain!
This would have to be all new. There’s no rail line there, the current tracks run through Santa Barbara and follow the coast until north of Vandenberg.
And that doesn’t even take into consideration the engineering challenges of HIGH SPEED rail through the Grapevine. There’s a winding climb 3000 or 4000 feet out of Bakersfield that would be very difficult for high speed rail.
Don't forget the drop back down.
I did that hill at 35 mph on several occasions, and I wasn't even the slowest truck out there. Either direction. It's an ugly slog up and a somewhat intimidating ride down, both north and south directions. Trains stop even less well than tractor trailers.
And there's nowhere to *put* the rail beds. The available space is already full of road.
Move the reply button
Funny thing; in the seventies you could travel between Los Angeles and San Francisco in two hours.
Planes left every hour, on the hour, and a second plane would be called up if the first one was filled.
But that was private enterprise, intrastate flights that ignored federal red tape, and served travelers, not unions.
I remember PSA and the others. You didn't even consult a schedule, just got to the airport and took the next plane. Dirt cheap too.
Did you know that air traffic control, that quintessential government burrocracy, was invented by the private sector?
http://reason.org/news/show/air-traffic-control-newsletter-133#f
Government does nothing competently. Government fucks up everything.
Mid sixties I lived in Orange County and went to college in the Bay Area. Rode my bike to the Orange COunty airport, walked it right up to the ticket counter, asked when the net plane was leaving, and got told "in about twenty minutes". I said good, handed her one twenty dollar bill, she handed me a ticket that looked a lot like a Greyhound Bus ticket.. no name, just fight number and destiantioin. Walked the bike down the corridor, walked it out onto the tarmac along with the rest of the Folls, passed the bike to a baggage guy who wheeled it up the ramp. and into the belly of the Electra. We al walked up the big rolling steel staircase, found seats wherever we liked, announced takeoff, doors closed and those turboprops began to wheel faster. Turned in a bit of pitch and we started to roll, turned into a runway and were off. At the Sam Francisco end reverse the above, I hopped on the bike and rode into 101 southbound and off to thesouth and back to dreary dorm life. WHole thing took maybe three and a half hours door to door. And cost twenty bucks. And not one person ever even asked my name, let alone showing ID, birth certifiate mpother's maiden name, emoty my pockets, or what I had in my lunchpoke.
And I do not recall even one plane being hijacked in those days. That all came later. Haven't flown in at least six years now. Not fun anymore And they won't let me take the bike on the plane anymore unless it is dismantled and boxed, which means I can't ride it to the airport, nor from the other one to my destinatioin.
Folls?
Boston to NYC in the early 80's, same deal, except I think you got on board, and they came down the aisle with a credit card machine in flight. Metal detector, yes, but a pocket knife was not a concern, just remember to put it in the bin with your keys and change.
Ain't progress great?
"I remember PSA and the others. You didn’t even consult a schedule, just got to the airport and took the next plane. Dirt cheap too."
On the hour, south, on the half hour, north, $25 as from memory, '70s.
Where is Dagny Taggart when you need her?
Who is John Galt?
Why do people vote for democrats?
"Where is Dagny Taggart when you need her?"
Either in Houston or Dallas. Where another high speed rail link is in the works.
we got a regular-speed train 10 years ago to get from Dallas to Fort Worth & back although why anyone wants to goto Fort Worth is beyond me
I'd visit the Hotel Texas, where author Jim Thompson (The Killer Inside Me etc) worked as a teenager providing liquor and drugs to the guests.
Ft Worth Stockyards (nowhere else like it)
Ft Worth Zoo (better than Dallas)
Kimbell Art Museum (better than Dallas)
Ft Worth Botanic Garden (better than Dallas)
Amon Carter Museum of American Art
Ft Worth Museum of Science and History
Texas Motor Speedway
Bass Performance Hall (better than Dallas)
Joe T. Garcia's
(Not affiliated with the Ft Worth visitors' bureau)
Implicit in this is the assumption that the people behind High-Speed Rail had providing a good transportation solution as a high priority.
What the politicians, academics, economists, and bureaucrats who promoted HSR cared about was money and power, the media cared about being in bed with the politicians and bureaucrats so they spread misinformation about it, and the average voter doesn't have the time or interest to care about HSR because the average voter doesn't pay for HSR.
What is truly astounding is that people like Matt Welch still reason about politics as if politicians somehow had "the interests of the people" or "the good of the country" as their objectives. Politicians are rational economic actors that use the power they have been granted for their personal benefit, like any other rational economic actor.
‘”Only now,” asserts author Ralph Vartabedian, “is it becoming apparent how costly the political choices have been.’
Next, the New York Times has reached the startling conclusion that Alfred Dreyfus was innocent, a fact which is becoming apparent only now.
But Duranty is forever a saint.
Can't help but notice how many of those most in favour of rail have a subtext of "rail is also great for bulk moving people to camps where they can be concentrated and re-educated".
They will be packed into box cars just like back in the day.
Re-education will mean a one way trip.
I predict that this, too, will fall upon deaf ears. The problem is not that the politicians don't listen to common sense when they plan public works projects. The problem is that officials never intended for their plan to work in the real world in the first place. Politicians and officials couldn't care less whether their projects or plans make any sense or not; or whether they will ever be completed (or even started) or whether they will actually work or whether there was even an actual public need to start with. It's all about feeding the monster and personally dodging whatever few and far between consequences there might be for their misdeeds. "It's not MY fault that the project never got off the ground. It's the fault of Reason Magazine for casting doubt on the project!"
Adding an additional lane in each direction of I-5 would have absolutely mooted this project at a fraction of the price. But Progressives love choos-choos, so here we are.
I left CA in 2015 for the sake of my mental health. When the CA legislature met each year you knew some productive piece of society/economy was going to get the shaft.
The high-speed rail project has to be set aside so California can get busy on electric cars for everyone!!!
Ok ... I admit I smiled at that one.
"...California's plan to link Los Angeles to San Francisco by high-speed rail is expected to cost $68 billion..."
"...I offer this quote from former San Fransisco Mayor Willie Brown, a California political institution in his own right. Writing in the San Francisco Chronicle, July 28 (As reported in the WSJ’s Notable and Quotable,) Mr. Brown’s candor was both refreshing and shocking at the same time:
"News that the Transbay Terminal is something like $300 million over budget should not come as a shock to anyone. We always knew the initial estimate was way under the real cost. Just like we never had a real cost for the Central Subway or the Bay Bridge or any other massive construction project. So get off it. In the world of civic projects, the first budget is really just a down payment. If people knew the real cost from the start, nothing would ever be approved. The idea is to get going. Start digging a hole and make it so big, there’s no alternative to coming up with the money to fill it in..."
https://bereansatthegate.com/hall-of-shame-politicians-admit-deliberate-lieing-to-decieve-the-public/
Isn't he the same Willie Brown Kamaltoe Harris used to climb her own ladder?
And in reference to Harris, apparently he dug a ho so big he couldn't fill her. So she had to look further up the food chain.
Yeah, you could say she studied 'under him'.
It's disappointing that, in the supposedly limited republic that is the United States, a simple majority vote in a state can subject millions to taxes for a boondoggle that, even if finished, they will probably never use. Maybe we need more "threats to democracy" 's.
And, it's happening all over again with the push against fossil fuels. They were warned, the are being warned, they will be warned; and they will ignore it every single time.
There was talk years back about doing high speed rail between St. Louis and Chicago.
At the time, they made the compromise to use existing surface rail, which would make the project cost $2 billion instead of $4 billion for elevated lines.
The problem is, while the $4b could have been an investment in infrastructure, the $2b would certainly be a wasted boondoggle. This could never be effective high speed rail with grade crossings, dealing with freight trains, stopping in intermediate destinations, etc. Basically everything that has plagued the California project.
Luckily I think that the idea has been scrapped for now, but you never know when it will come back. Those progressives sure do love their trains.
A disaster for who? For the citizens and taxpayers of California, certainly. But for the construction companies, unionized construction workers, engineers, architects, lobbyists, and other consultants who collectively gorged on this doomed project I would argue it was quite successful. And the politicians who perpetrated this fiasco, all Democrats I believe, have been and will be amply rewarded.
That is the grift.
Union hiring hall on wheels.
The infamous, $113-billion-and-counting California high-speed rail line between San Francisco and Los Angeles...
Objection! Facts not in evidence.
113 billion?
high-speed?
between SF and LA?
Infamous I'll grant you.
Government -> Touch -> Shit
The Census Bureau estimates that the American population will cross 400 million in 2051
Is this new added population going to come through immigration? And uhh, this is the Atlantic, there's sure to be a lot of bullshit in this article, such as the underlying analysis, but the fact is, population-wise, the US is in the same boat as most of the rest of the developed world, we're in decline.
Uhh, yes, yes, apparently it's ALL going to come through immigration:
Oh, and at least according to the CBO, you're off by about 30 million.
Doing the jobs Americans won't do indeed.
But... that's... still population growth, regardless of where the population comes from O.o
But i guess i see your point?
Im just trying to figure out what your point is and/or why the distinction is necessarily important for the current discussion
Soon America can catch up to Britain then...
But I guess it will reflect Hispanic colonization rather than Arabic.
Im pretty sure that The Simpsons predicted this (kind of)
https://youtu.be/taJ4MFCxiuo
I've traveled Korea's high speed rail, owned and operated by the government. 12 years in the making, 300 km/h max. Comfortable ride, no injuries, though there have been some complaints about the noise level in the tunnels through Korea's mountainous landscape.
Trueman or False: Texas tower shooter Charles Whitman included a stick of deodorant in the small bag he packed and took up to the tower with him.
The US has by far the largest rail network in the world, larger than all of Europe’s combined. And America’s rail network is 100% utilized and highly efficient. It’s highly efficient because it’s being used for what rail is actually good at: freight transport. Rail is a lousy system for transporting people.
South Korea’s rail network is about 1/50th the size of America’s (smaller than even North Korea’s). The longest route on that “high speed rail” is 200 miles, which takes nearly 3 h to complete, not very high speed. And the fact that it is “owned and operated by the government” already tells you that it isn’t profitable and makes no economic sense.
"The US has by far the largest rail network in the world"
Not the fastest, though. South Korea, Japan, France, China, Kenya, Spain, Uzbekistan, to name but a few, all have faster.
"It’s highly efficient because it’s being used for what rail is actually good at: freight transport."
The energy efficiency of rail transport is superior to alternatives. That's true whether freight or passengers are being transported.
"And the fact that it is “owned and operated by the government” already tells you that it isn’t profitable and makes no economic sense."
The government isn't a business and profit is not its purpose. The military isn't a profitable enterprise, either, also government owned and operated.
For passenger transport, that requires counting passengers on full trains. Actual passenger rail transport involves running many nearly empty trains in order to keep it a feasible mode of transportation. It also involves a lot of travel to/from stations. And even in countries with good rail transport, rail is only small fraction of overall trips. Furthermore, if you mix passenger and freight on the same network, the efficiency of freight drops greatly; that is, you also need to attribute the excess energy usage due to displacing freight from rail to road to the use of rail for passenger transport.
Correct. And that’s not a good thing. Passenger trains need to go much faster than cars to be even marginally competitive, but travel at such high speeds is costly and inefficient. That is, in practice, all those high speed trains compete with cars in terms of end-to-end transportation speed. Seoul-to-Busan barely cracks 100 km/h for the entire route, and if you add 30m-1h for travel time to/from the station at each station, you are way below car speeds, at higher costs and greater inconvenience.
Correct. And both passenger rail and wars are economically inefficient. One of these is a necessary evil, the other one we can avoid by simply using rail for what it's best at: freight.
"Actual passenger rail transport involves running many nearly empty trains in order to keep it a feasible mode of transportation"
Energy efficiency is measured in m/J, irrespective of the number of passengers. Is the Shinkansen as feasible mode of transportation? It's been running for more than 50 years. Is the New York subway system feasible? That's been running even longer.
"Seoul-to-Busan barely cracks 100 km/h for the entire route"
For high speed rail? No, its maximum speed is about 3 times that.
"you are way below car speeds"
How are you calculating car speeds? The highway between Pusan and Seoul has huge parking areas with facilities every 30 kms or so, filled with cars where passengers can enjoy a snack, full meal, a visit to the toilet, or even pet animals in a small zoo. In trains one needn't stop to do these things, though, small zoos have yet to make an appearance of Korea's high speed trains. They do have restaurant cars and toilets, though.
"And both passenger rail and wars are economically inefficient"
People ride trains anyways, as economic efficiency is not the sole criterion for transit.
If you care about carbon emissions, what matters is what the implementation of a large scale passenger rail infrastructure would do to carbon emissions, and the answer is that it would make carbon emissions worse.
Likewise, if you care about economic inequality, poverty, or transportation for the poor, again, what matters is what the implementation of a large scale passenger rail infrastructure would do to them, and it would, in fact, make their lives worse.
Passenger rail transportation can be profitable under very specific circumstances, like densely populated metro areas with traffic congestion problems. And as such, it caters to the preferences of a well-off urban elite, at the cost of higher carbon emissions and higher taxes for everybody else.
In practice, travel by car is usually pretty close to the speed limit. Furthermore, car travel is end-to-end; rail travel is station-to-station, which means you have to tack 1-2h at least on top of the pure HSR speed.
A luxury hotel is not efficient housing and people live there anyway. That doesn't mean that we can or should house the entire nation in luxury hotels.
You are arguing for taxpayers to fund the creation of luxury transportation for urban elites and tourists, to hell with carbon emissions and the poor. You don't give a f*ck as long as you can glide in luxury through the countryside.
"and the answer is that it would make carbon emissions worse."
Worse than doing nothing? Yes. But we aren't doing nothing. We emit carbon as a matter of course, in pretty much any transport option currently on the table. The key is to use the energy necessary for transport as efficiently as possible, and that's why rail will be continue to play a growing role in the world. The US, of course is a special case, where there is an ideological commitment to fossil fuels, and where oil companies and lawyers have a disproportionate voice in the public sphere, and energy efficiency is not an important factor.
Yes, and passenger rail uses energy inefficiently. The economically efficient choice is to dedicate every mile of rail you build to 100% freight transport.
"The economically efficient choice is to dedicate every mile of rail you build to 100% freight transport."
In Korea, Japan, Uzbekistan, Kenya, China, France, Germany and other places with high speed rail transport, passengers rather than freight predominate. The New York City subway system also is largely devoted to serving passengers.
Correct. And in France and Germany, people still overwhelmingly fly, take buses, or drive, even though those rail systems are heavily subsidized. And since freight by rail is so inefficient due to the passenger traffic, highways are clogged with truck and even truck trains. That’s the consequence of what you advocate. It is neither green nor efficient.
Rail in Europe is a boondoggle for wealthy urban elites, much as that may be difficult to understand for an ignorant American like you.
"And in France and Germany, people still overwhelmingly fly, take buses, or drive, even though those rail systems are heavily subsidized."
They never walk, though, do they? You never see a French man walking. Must be all that dog doo doo on the boulevard.
"It is neither green nor efficient."
I'm talking about energy efficiency. m/J or J/m. One of those two.
Germans and Frenchmen walk a lot what does that have to do with high speed rail? You’re grasping at straws now.
As for efficiency, raw J/m numbers are not meaningful by themselves if you care about reducing overall carbon emissions or energy usage. Lower J/m for a transportation system can mean higher overall emissions when you deploy that transportation system widely.
"Lower J/m for a transportation system can mean higher overall emissions when you deploy that transportation system widely."
Where is high speed rail used widely? In Japan, where it's been around longest, it stretches from Sapporo to Hakata, and connects the major cities in between, and almost nothing else. The road system is much more widely spread, as you'd expect. But air travel is preferred to cars at a certain distance, and shinkansen is preferred to air. Preferred for speed, reliability, comfort, safety, environmental friendliness and price. If you've spent as much time driving in Japan as you have on their shinkansen, you wouldn't need me explaining all this to you ad nauseam.
"...If you’ve spent as much time driving in Japan as you have on their shinkansen, you wouldn’t need me explaining all this to you ad nauseam."
If you weren't such a pretentious pile of lefty shit, you wouldn't need to have your face wiped in your bullshit ad nauseum.
Hint: Japan =/= US
@mtrueman So after I debunked your crap for Europe, you now retreat to Japan.
Yes, the Shinkansen is nice. Yes, many Japanese don’t have a choice but to use it. I use it to travel everywhere every time I am in Japan.
How does any of that prove that it is efficient transportation for Japan, let alone for the rest of the world?
All we get from you, @mtrueman, is an endless stream of nonsequiturs, ad hominems, red herrings, and Texas sharpshooters.
"In practice, travel by car is usually pretty close to the speed limit."
Traveling long distances generally requires stopping for fuel. Breaks for rest room visits and snacks and even pauses to appreciate the animals in small zoos have their place too. They are included in these rest stops because their designers have found that people appreciate and use them. People also like to stretch their legs and do simple exercises on the equipment that is typically found in these facilities. (Trains aren't equipped with petting zoos or exercise yards, but passengers are free to walk about and stretch if they wish.) The notion that people traveling from Seoul to Pusan simply get in their vehicles and travel non stop at top speed to their destination is simply wrong.
"That doesn’t mean that we can or should house the entire nation in luxury hotels."
Probably not. But dormitories, communal kitchens and bathrooms are more efficient. Is that what you are advocating?
And in practice people drive over the speed limit. On balance, people generally arrive by car as if they had driven the speed limit without stopping.
And cars are end to end. For trains, you have to add getting to and from the station. In addition, high speed rail doesn’t run continuously, so you often add hours to the trip just because of scheduling.
"On balance, people generally arrive as if they had driven the speed limit without stopping. "
Between Seoul and Pusan? Often the roads are congested, or weather conditions don't allow for maximum speeds. You should try it sometime, and you'll be surprised at how busy these rest stops are. They are often packed with cars, at least in the day time. Night time is a different story. But the notion that people simply get into their cars and drive to their destination without stopping at speeds even greater than maximum limits is wrong. You might be confusing them with trains.
High speed rail frequently has delays or breaks down. And on top of the our travel time, you need to count feeders, train changes, and scheduling granularity.
You’re the typical ignorant American and/or urbanite, who thinks that because you can go “from Seoul to Busan” barely at Highway speeds in a train, it is efficient transportation.
"High speed rail frequently has delays or breaks down."
It's also faster to drive to Osaka than it is to take the Shinkansen. Because of all those times you have to change trains.
"High speed rail frequently has delays or breaks down. And on top of the our travel time, you need to count feeders, train changes, and scheduling granularity. "
You've never been on a high speed rail, have you? Give it a try. You only live once.
I used to take high speed rail work frequently while living in Europe and Asia.I know what I’m talking about. And you are just the typical ignorant American expat or tourist.
"I used to take high speed rail work frequently while living in Europe and Asia.I know what I’m talking about. "
You must be quite the masochist, unless you were forced to take slow, inefficient, crowded, dangerous, noisy, dirty trains which didn't even have the decency to provide on board petting zoos to their animal fondling passengers. You've clearly led a miserable life.
As I was saying, trains are a boondoggle for wealthy urbanites. While I was an urbanite and when I wasn’t in a hurry and had time for some sightseeing, I would take a train, usually adding a couple of days to my trip.
When I needed efficient, timely, predictable transportation, I would use a car, a bus, or a plane.
Furthermore, the rail system in Europe is heavily subsidized, while alternatives are taxed and attacked by governments. That’s another reason people take rail in Europe: authoritarian governments push them to. And even with all that, rail is still struggling in Europe.
"I would take a train, usually adding a couple of days to my trip."
Last time you took the Shinkansen to Osaka, how many days did it take before the train finally pulled into the station?
"Furthermore, the rail system in Europe is heavily subsidized"
And fossil fuels are heavily subsidized, as are the roadways. I already commented on Hitler's love of all things automotive, which you ignore because of the dissonance.
"And fossil fuels are heavily subsidized, as are the roadways."
Bullshit and bullshit.
@mtrueman, neither the road system nor fossil fuels are heavily subsidized. To the contrary, they are significant revenue sources for the US and European governments. Freight rail is also not heavily subsidized.
Passenger rail is heavily subsidized and still accounts for only a small percentage of trip miles because it is simply not an efficient mode of transportation in the US and Europe.
"You don’t give a f*ck as long as you can glide in luxury through the countryside."
Cab fare between Seoul and Pusan is vastly greater than the price of a train ticket, even a high speed train ticket. If it's your own vehicle you will be driving, the cost include the price of the vehicle, the wear and tear, parking, insurance, fuel, and the the opportunity cost of having to concentrate on the road and traffic instead of devoting your time to more productive activities.
You’re comparing apples and oranges. A car takes me from source to destination in one go, in privacy and comfort. I can listing to books on tape, make calls, etc. I can take lots of luggage and don’t have to carry it. In the future, with self driving cars, I can work the entire way.
In reality, when traveling by high speed rail, you may have a couple of hours in a crowded compartment with noisy, coughing, annoying people around you, and twice that wasting time in feeder trains, train stations, and just walking. And because of scheduling and delays, you usually end up wasting even more time at your destination because you need to leave hours before your meeting just to make it in time, time that you usually also can’t spend productively.
"You’re comparing apples and oranges."
No, I'm comparing different modes of transport and their energy efficiency.
"In reality, when traveling by high speed rail, you may have a couple of hours in a crowded compartment with noisy, coughing, annoying people around you, and twice that wasting time in feeder trains, train stations, and just walking."
That's not my experience. As I wrote in my original comment:
" Comfortable ride, no injuries, though there have been some complaints about the noise level in the tunnels through Korea’s mountainous landscape."
If you haven't experienced travel by high speed rail, why not try it? You might be pleasantly surprised. I was.
Unlike you, I was living with high speed rail for years. It’s a PITA unless you happen to go from city center to city center.
The reason people like you like high speed rail is because you only have experienced it as an ignorant American expat.
"There's always low speed rail for local trips. Subways, street cars etc. There will always be roads, highways, whether they be logging roads or super highways. Cars and trucks will continue to ply them. To go Deleuze on you, roads are rhizomes, like the potato, they spread out and go in all directions and there's no central node. Rail is arborescent, rooted like the trees to a central point.
Both forms of network have their place and serve their purpose.
"The reason people like you like high speed rail"
I like high tech things. 21st century and all. You're a conservative, ideologically in thrall to the internal combustion engine, fresh from the 19th century. I don't particularly like high speed rail, it requires a huge investment of resources, but probably better than air travel, environment wise.
Passenger rail is an obsolete 19th century technology; there is nothing shiny or new about it. The reason progressives, socialists, and fascists like rail so much is because it gives them more control over populations. You’re in the thrall of an obsolete technology favored by obsolete ideologies for obsolete reasons.
The shiny new thing is self driving electric cars. No messy ICE, and you get whisked in complete privacy and luxury to your destination by an AI. You can be sure: pretty much everybody prefers that to trains.
High speed rail dates back to the Shinkansen, mid 60s and TGV, the Korean model, is later. It's not 19th century. Rail was powered by coal and steam back then.
"and fascists like rail so much is because it gives them more control over populations."
Hitler loved cars actually. He commissioned Porsche to produce the volkswagen, designed and funded the autobahn, and planned roads to spread all over Russia once it was conquered. Construction on the autobahn, essentially one of Hitler's pet vanity projects, perversely continued well into the ww2, despite labor and material shortages that were evident even before the fighting began.
"The shiny new thing is self driving electric cars."
Train transport is more energy efficient than cars. As long as that's the case, trains will play a role in our future. How we use energy will become a much more important issue in the future than it is today, at least outside the US where there is an ideological commitment to clinging to internal combustion engines, as I've said before.
You cash repeat the lie that trains are more energy efficient as much as you want, that doesn’t make it true. Every mile of rail you use for passenger transportation rather than freight makes transportation less efficient.
Passenger rail is 19th Century technology, when it was the only choice for long distance travel and people had no choice but to put up with it. These days, it’s obsolete.
"Hitler loved cars actually. He commissioned Porsche to produce the volkswagen, designed and funded the autobahn, and planned roads to spread all over Russia once it was conquered. Construction on the autobahn, essentially one of Hitler’s pet vanity projects, perversely continued well into the ww2, despite labor and material shortages that were evident even before the fighting began...."
trueman's good at picking cherries
"...How we use energy will become a much more important issue in the future than it is today, at least outside the US where there is an ideological commitment to clinging to internal combustion engines, as I’ve said before."
And offering up assertions backed by nothing whatsoever.
""Not the fastest, though. South Korea, Japan, France, China, Kenya, Spain, Uzbekistan, to name but a few, all have faster.""
So?
We are a nation that flies.
"We are a nation that flies."
Flying is less energy efficient than rail transport. That's one of the problems with flying. Another is that for large aircraft, fossil fuels need to be burned. Smaller aircraft can fly using electric, so a future with Jetson-style individual flying machines may become a reality. But for mass transport, unless you're talking about blimps, rail is more energy efficient and less reliant on fossil fuels than flying.
"Flying is less energy efficient than rail transport..."
Don't care. Gets me where I want to be when I want to be there.
Fossil fuels also need to be burned for trains.
These trains typically are electrically powered. Electricity can be generated by a number of methods, even erecting rotating blades in a windy area will do the trick. Putting the rotating blades under a water fall is another.
Also electric planes are getting better. This news item from less than a month ago.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/electric-airplane-prototype-first-flight-washington
9 passengers, 2 crew. Beats anything the Jetsons had.
Currently and for decades to come, even “electric trains” are powered by fossil fuel. Furthermore, the high speeds and the use of electric power make them disproportionately inefficient.
"the high speeds and the use of electric power "
People want speed. That's why they fly rather than drive over long distances. Get the conditions right, and high speed rail may be quicker than flying. And certainly cleaner provided that the electricity comes from a kosher source, environment wise.
Take it from someone who actually used to use it quite a bit for business travel: high speed rail is almost never faster than alternative modes of transportation.
"The energy efficiency of rail transport is superior to alternatives. That’s true whether freight or passengers are being transported."
Yeah, so long as you consider humans as "livestock", as lefty shits like you do, it's just fine.
The US rail network is efficiently used but not efficiently built. More recent innovations by US rail operators involve de-staffing to lower operating costs. Technological innovation to lower costs is not on their radar. Over 50% of rail in Europe runs on electricity. The percentage rises every year. Switzerland rail for instance is 100% electrified. Running on electricity is cleaner, quieter and cheaper.
(see above)
$113 billion? We could have started a war in a whole different country with that kind of scratch!
Is no one going to mention Florida’s bright line project? Built by private enterprise meant to make a profit using higher speed trains at about 100 miles an hour. The route from Miami to West Palm Beach is already built and carrying passengers. They are busy working on the section from West Palm Beach to Orlando. I do like that they have upgraded all the railroad crossings, and the trains no longer have to sound their horns at the crossing. In spite of the upgraded crossings people are still dodging the arms and the train is killing someone pretty much every week.
I go from West Palm to Miami once a month to visit five different clinics to review the billing looking for Medicare fraud.
The funny thing is, they have metal detectors and don’t allow you to bring your concealed carry firearm on board. I would be willing to Uber from the central station to all the different clinics, but I’m not going to Miami without my gun. So there is a higher speed train available to me but I don’t use it!
No, because high speed rail advocates don't count 100mph as high speed rail.
100mph rail was accomplished a long time ago with steam locomotives.
https://www.railwaywondersoftheworld.com/first_100.html
https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/whats-on/mallard-worlds-fastest-steam-locomotive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hS0bRzksug
Here's a lovely tune by Mallard. (Peon, by Capt. Beefheart and the Magic Band)
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
"Spouting nonsense is an end in itself."
When you oppose _every_ public works project, sometimes you'll be right. Stopped clock is right twice a day.
When you oppose _every_ public works project, you’ll be right more often than not.
FTFY.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/rail-company-leaving-dysfunctional-california-faltering-bullet-train
Better get used to it because you will own nothing and be happy and that means owning your personal vehicle whether it be a car or truck, the Davos/WEF crowd means to remove that very freedom to travel where and when you wish.
Which means only public transport for the peons. Which means you travel when and where they allow it.
By 2050 the idea of personal transportation will be treated as if you committed a criminal act. In fact it will be a criminal act.
Besides you won't really need high speed rail as everyone will be forced into high density urban areas where you will be stacked on top of each other, living in 500 sq.ft. apartments, eating bugs and being happy.
That's the real plan.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid."
- John Wayne -
"The problem with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
- Margaret Thatcher (former British PM) -
"A trip from San Francisco to Los Angeles would allegedly take 2 hours and 40 minutes, averaging 197 mph. France's TGV-Est train averages 174 mph, the TGV Paris-Avignon averages 159 mph, Japan's bullet train averages 159 mph, and Taiwan's high-speed rail averages 152 mph…."
And the average American is led to believe that in China, the Chinese still take the bullock cart express..
ChIna is still a largely poor country populated by peasants. The fact that they have some snazzy infrastructure catering to wealthy urbanites doesn’t change that fact.
Also, those trip times are station to station. You can add another 1-2h at either end just getting to the station, at which point even those numbers are uncompetitive with cars, and that’s assuming that the high speed train actually is on schedule and that its schedule fits with your schedule (many of these trains only run once or twice a day).
Somehow 20 or 30 other nations have managed to design, build and operate high speed rail. More often than not in a timely fashion.
The inability to get just 1 (one ! ) line going is mind boggling. During the still incomplete construction phase in the central valley, China has built what ? 1 or 2 thousand miles of HSR?
But you were quiet when they lost billions on stem cell research because it involved abortion. So, sorry, no credit.
Lofty promises, limited results
After 14 years and $3 billion, has California's bet on stem cells paid off?
By Erin Allday and Joaquin Palomino
Sept. 6, 2018
Back when Cal proposed this boondoggle, I did a quick estimate of what it would cost (20 years ago) to tunnel through granite (slow and expensive) straight from SF to LA and build a dedicated electric RR, double-tracked the entire way. The price tag would have been triple what was initially proposed (i.e. approaching $100 M), and people laughed at my idea. But…
It would have avoided all NIMBY delays, all mountains, all rivers, all private property, all noise slow-downs, all climbing up and down, all twists and turns. It would have been ~350 miles of nearly straight level track to carry people from here to there with very few stops in between (and none for the occasional express service).
And best of all, it would have been completed and in service over ten years ago.