Another NIMBY Lawsuit Seeks To End New York City Outdoor Dining Program
Several dozen NYC residents want to repeal the regulations allowing outdoor dining in the city.

A new lawsuit could end New York City's popular outdoor dining program.
The suit, which names New York City and New York State as defendants, was filed last week by around three dozen city residents in New York Supreme Court. The plaintiffs allege the city's continued operation of the Temporary Open Restaurant (TOR) program, which gave city restaurants a lifeline during the Covid pandemic by allowing them to create outdoor dining structures along the respective city streets and sidewalks where they operate, constitutes an "illegal encroachment upon [the city's] public sidewalks, streets[,] and roadways on the no longer viable ground of a 'public health emergency.'"
The plaintiffs claim the expansion of outdoor dining in the city under the TOR program has negatively impacted their quality of life. Among the various "injuries and indignities" and other "substantial externalities" the suit alleges are "increased and excessive noise, traffic congestion, garbage and uncontrolled rodent populations, the blocking of sidewalks and roadways, causing petitioners and others to be unable to safely navigate the city's streets and sidewalks, and a diminution of parking upon which some petitioners depend."
In response to the new lawsuit, New York City Mayor Eric Adams, a supporter of expanded outdoor dining options, said the program is essential for the city, but admits some changes may be needed. "[W]hatever I can do to help our restaurant industry that employs dishwashers, waiters, busboys and -girls, this is an important industry and it is an indicator of our city," Adams said. "And so the lawsuit is going to play itself out. But I'm a supporter of the outdoor dining."
New York City's TOR program, authorized under state law, has been in place since June 2020, when it was implemented under then-Mayor Bill de Blasio. It was intended to reduce Covid infections while helping restaurant owners and workers survive the one-two punch of the virus and related restrictions on indoor dining.
"The program has been so successful that lawmakers have moved to make it permanent," I explained in a column last fall in which I also noted more than 12,000 city restaurants had taken advantage of the program.
But as I also explained, around two-dozen Manhattan residents sued the city last September over the TOR program. That complaint was full of shopworn city-dweller complaints about noise, parking, traffic, rats, and trash on the one hand and superfluous objections on the other hand—including the laments of one plaintive plaintiff who said in an affidavit that her street was once home to many small mom-and-pop stores but that "[n]ow large corporations own a good number of the buildings." Other sources offered similar critiques of the lawsuit. As I also reported, Gothamist referred to many of the gripes found in the lawsuit as "a word cloud of common complaints" about city living.
In March a court ruled against the city, restaurant owners, and their workers and customers. In his ruling, Judge Frank Nervo determined the city was required to conduct a study on the TOR program's environmental impacts, "including noise, traffic and parking, sanitation, and neighborhood character." Rather than conduct a study, the city had issued an environmental assessment statement, which found "no significant environmental impacts in instituting a permanent dining program." In his ruling, Judge Nervo determined the city had "failed to consider the likelihood [of] ongoing environmental impacts" from the TOR program.
The complaint filed last week alleges that while other Covid-related programs and local mask and vaccine mandates have ended over the past year or so, the TOR program continues even though "[r]estaurants, bars[,] and taverns in New York City are again now permitted to utilize their indoor capacity at pre-pandemic occupancy levels, and they are doing so throughout the city."
Is there a way forward for restaurants and others to offer outdoor dining in structures located along city streets and sidewalks? The complaint itself, which rests largely on the presumption that "no public health emergency exists and, therefore, there is no premise for TOR," may suggest one. Though New York City may not have had a current public health emergency in place when this TOR lawsuit was filed last week, exactly one day after it was filed the city declared a new public-health emergency—this one over an outbreak of monkeypox. (A public health emergency exists, the city could argue in response to the complaint, and, therefore, there is a premise for TOR.)
A better way forward would see city officials address residents' complaints—which are, again, the same ones city residents have had for generations about rats, trash, parking, and the like—while continuing to allow outdoor dining structures to be placed along sidewalks and streets.
"I have no doubts that some of these resident complaints are valid," I explained in my column on the lawsuit that was filed last fall. "But outdoor dining didn't cause most of these problems, which predate the pandemic. New York City officials can and should do a better job addressing resident concerns. But the city also can and should use existing mechanisms to deal with rats, noise, trash, and other issues."
Allowing more spaces for outdoor dining was a great idea before Covid. It still is. And it's one I hope outlives the pandemic—in New York City and beyond.
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"exactly one day after it was filed the city declared a new public-health emergency—this one over an outbreak of monkeypox. (A public health emergency exists, the city could argue in response to the complaint, and, therefore, there is a premise for TOR.)"
So the structures would be come safe spaces for homosexual promiscuous sex?
Outdoor glory holes?
Sidewalk dining is the best way to enjoy the ambiance of NYC, the smell of piss, shit, and ganja coupled with the random muggings by criminals and the random attacks by mentally ill homeless druggies.
I think you might be making it sound better than it is.
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New York City's TOR program, authorized under state law, has been in place since June 2020, when it was implemented under then-Mayor Bill de Blasio.
Funny, I didn't know the Sci-Fi publishing company diversified into food trucks. Things are tough all over. 😉
Look at this way, Jerry: If the maggots in The Big Apple manage one day to eat all the pus away, a picnic on the thoroughfare with jazz on a Summer's day will be a great way to celebrate.
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Assignment:
Describe the difference between a NIMBY lawsuit and a Social Justice lawsuit.
Unstoppable Force Meets Immoveable Object.
The difference, expressed in fractions, decimals, and integers is:
>-1•Monkey.Crap/Christ
(Yes, I know you don't use decimals and fractions together, but that only punctuates how litle the difference matters.)
I'm not sure that this is really NIMBY.
Last summer I was walking through a city. In just a few blocks, there were several times when I was forced to leave the sidewalk and walk in the street to get around the sidewalk dining in front of restaurants.
The sidewalk infrastructure was built with tax dollars to give people a place to walk. I think there could be a legitimate argument against permanently handing that public space over to private enterprise.
Is the government still making them use less than 50% of their indoor capacity, though?
If so, that should change rather than deny the use of the sidewalks and the parking spaces which allow customers of other businesses access to them.
Yeah. This is one of those things where they should probably put this emergency order out, and instead move towards legislation if they want to allow outdoor dining. Move towards some mixed compromise of using public side-walks for walking vs. restaurants using them.
Move towards charging rent - parking spaces v dining spaces - to the highest bidder. If the rents are high enough, then close that street to cars and charge for even more dining space + things like stalls, street performers. This is exactly what grid-design streets are perfect for. Turning streets into a neighborhood public-space destination rather than a venue for google to direct thru-traffic into a rat-run.
My guess is that the core protest to outdoor dining is people who want their free subsidized parking spaces to return.
IDK about NYC, but in SF, before the panᵈᵉᵐic, if a construction company wanted a parking space reserved for its own use, the city charged the company $10,000 per week, per space.
I wonder if SF city is charging its restaurants, that have expanded their dining areas into the parking zones, the same rate.
Somehow I doubt it.
It's amazing how much disruption has taken place, with no scientific support, from a bug that was basically hyped to the extremes to get Donald Trump out of office and the seized upon to test totalitarian acquiescence by the plebes.
Having been in NYC just this past May, my experience was rather different. Outdoor dining rarely impinged on use of the sidewalk. Instead, it generally sat in the street where 'parking' could have been, separated from the restaurant by the sidewalk. (I was mostly in midtown. I don't know about downtown, but i doubt uptown has an issue).
Anyone expecting to park on the street in NYC is an idiot. IMO, they should eliminate street parking in Manhattan entirely - that's the real problem.
And while the streets were built by the city, they should just charge rent to the restaurants using portions of the street for outdoor dining.
I don't think that it's NIMBY to ask for your publicly-funded streets or bike lanes or sidewalks back.
If they want to make it permanent, there are methods to remove right-of-way or easements and sell or lease those rights back to the private sector.
The problem is a lot of sidewalks are part of easements so they're literally stolen from the property owner for that public use then forced to maintain that portion of the property as the city sees fit. From that perspective, "fuck no, pay me" seems a perfectly reasonable answer.
My thoughts exactly. A side walk is a public right of away, its sole purpose to facilitate movement of people between private properties.
Could it be that millions of people living in a few square miles don't have enough outdoor space? Nobody could have predicted that.
They could always auction off Central Park to the highest bidders.
This has to be the easiest problem to solve
1. Convince NY progtards to adopt and implement a "green" lifestyle similar to german
2. Wait for winter
3. Clean up the mess
4. Outdoor dining no longer needed due to population drop
Just put the outdoor dining on the roof. Keeps the sidewalks clear and protects diners from mostly peaceful protestors too.
Britain is finding the issues of buying millions of cameras from China as cameras are found to be trying to connect to Chinese servers.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1554881142314205190
Watching them watching you.
Known for right wing democrat Jonathan Turley is questioning the purpose of the J6 committee as he points to statements by Cheney saying it is a partisan political hunt created to effect the 2022 elections and 2024.
https://jonathanturley.org/2022/08/05/stay-tuned-cheney-declares-j6-holding-much-more-evidence-of-possible-crimes/
on CNN’s “Anderson Cooper 360” Cheney said:
“The committee has been, I think, very thorough and laying out much of what we know. There’s much more that we have not yet shared in hearings, and we anticipate we will share in the fall. "
Maybe she's secretly a Trump agent who joined the committee to publicly discredit it as much as possible?
https://twitter.com/TravisP07511683/status/1555923530092609537?t=M1DgsBRov3x8V0McsOFSgw&s=19
Text from Officer Brian Sicknick Jan 6
[Link]
That would break White Mike's heart to read it.
The texting caused his blood pressure to rise and caused his stroke. Trump and rioters are to blame.
And Reason still doesn’t care. Disgusting.
Are they cowards or assholes?
Another school district shown to be hiding transitions from parents.
https://christopherrufo.com/san-diego-gender-theory/
Also includes fun nuggets like:
Presentation:
Safe Oral Sex
Safer Vaginal Sex
Safer Anal Sex
What does semen taste like?
What might be the intent of the question?
What knowledge do they need to make healthy choices?
How could you make your response inclusive of all students?
How would you respond?
Jeff still asking why people think schools are pushing sexual grooming of kids.
This is all related to new critical theory called critical gender theory, taken apart by James Lindsay (now suspended on Twitter for explaining the grooming).
As for ssparent notification:
Request — Confidential:
Students have a right to privacy. This includes the right keep private their transgender status or gender-nonconforming presentation at school. …
School staff shall not disclose information that may reveal a student’s transgender status or gender-nonconforming presentation to others. Therefore, given the sensitive nature of the information, when speaking with parents, guardians, other staff members, or third parties, school staff should not disclose a student’s preferred name, pronoun(s), or other confidential information pertaining to the student’s transgender or gender-nonconforming status without the student’s permission, unless authorized to do so by law.
So yes they continue to admit to hiding despite the protestations of the Reason groomer crew.
Now before him and sarc to jump to "but what about child abuse!!!!", schools already have a duty to report abuse to the state.
Missed a few italics tags.
Jesse, do you think schools should be a welcoming and inclusive space for all students, including LGBTQ students? Do you think that if a LGBTQ student attends a public school, that he/she should have a basic expectation that the school staff will treat him/her with at least the same dignity and respect and courtesy as all of the other students?
If your answer to this is 'yes', how do you think schools should meet this expectation
^aspiring child rapist
^aspiring murderer
Look at Jeffy try to redirect the conversation.
He knows that Jesse has presented evidence of textbook grooming, so he tries to change the subject to being "inclusive" and being treated with "dignity and respect".
Newsflash, Jeffy. You can treat a child with dignity and respect without discussing the taste of pussy or how to take one in the ass.
For a *highschool-level* sex-ed class, what is wrong with discussing how to have safe sex, including anal sex? What is your specific objection here?
Jeff. Let me get off the trans discussion for a moment to see if jumping to another acceptance movement helps elucidate the issue for you.
Fat acceptance is parallel to the current trans movement. It is a movement to accept people of all body sizes.
Do you think schools should set up a cookie closet to lets kids have cookies and sweets at school and gain weight withoutnl informing parents? Should teachers be feeding and applauding kids for eating sweets and gaining weight?
Both of these actions with the weight gain example above and using drugs and surgery on kids involve increasing medical risks in children.
So will you remain consistent?
That's not even a close analogy.
'Fat acceptance' is simply the idea that fat people shouldn't be treated like dirt because of their body type.
So if a school were to have a policy of 'fat acceptance', I would expect them to not treat fat kids like dirt and not to shun them.
Furthermore, I would expect that if a fat student had a special need - such as, diabetes medication - related to that person's obesity, that the school would do their best to accommodate the student's need.
The purpose of 'fat acceptance' is not to MAKE people fatter by feeding them extra cookies, just instead to treat them with dignity if they are fat.
So it is the same with transgender students. If a student claims to be transgender, then the school should try to accommodate the needs associated with that to the best of their ability. 'Transgender acceptance' is not FORCING transgender students to undergo a transition that they don't want to. It is simply accepting the student for who he/she is.
Yes it is a close analogy. But you refuse it because it simply displays the idiocy and inconsistency of your arguments.
Thanks for playing.
1. It's not close
2. You will insist it's close no matter what I say
3. This is tiresome
It is close. It shows the inconsistent patterns of your beliefs.
There is a reason many Europeans are pulling back on the youth trans craze and working on mental health issues instead.
But you haven't given up the politics or emotions of it to realize that.
Would you allow schools to alter kids in other ways or just for trans issues. And if so why? That is the primary fault in your arguments. And the inconsistency.
I will also add that teachers are not psychologists or doctors and should not be diagnosing kids for gender questions sans parents. You believe they are for some reason and they should be able to hide it from parents. See below about your retreat to child abuse again.
The schools only duty is a reporting duty, but for some reason you want them to be decision makers for the health of kids.
This is tiresome
This is indeed tiresome.
I'm sick of watching you spam the board with sophistry and try to play cheap rhetorical tricks to redirect conversation. I'm sick of watching you lie and try to reword other peoples statements because you can't argue against what they actually said. I'm sick of watching you twist the meanings of words to suit your rhetoric and sick of watching you strawman and create hypotheticals and act like they happened.
I really wish you'd take your games and your stunts and fuck off.
"Fat acceptance" does not mean "make people fatter".
"Trans acceptance" does not mean "make people trans".
That is why your analogy is not close.
Would you allow schools to alter kids in other ways or just for trans issues.
I don't want schools to "alter" kids, if by that you mean some type of physical alteration.
I will also add that teachers are not psychologists or doctors and should not be diagnosing kids for gender questions sans parents.
You're right! I actually agree with you here. I don't want teachers trying to assign gender identities to kids either.
I think kids should be free to be who they are.
I think teachers ought to be accepting of that.
I don't want teacher to push one particular gender dogma over another. I don't want them to push EITHER "there are two and only two genders and if you don't feel like you fit in that means you're mentally ill", OR "if you feel different someday that means you are definitely transgender and I will give hormones to you right now". I don't want either of those.
Do you understand yet?
You know what ML? I'm sick of you calling me a Nazi and trying to cancel me from this forum.
You know what Jeff? You are a Nazi, nobody's "canceled" you (we're not leftists), and I couldn't give a shit that your "sick" of anything.
I think that you're human garbage, why would I ever care?
I think kids should be free to be who they are.
I think teachers ought to be accepting of that.
And if the kid identifies as Napoleon Bonaparte? Jesus Christ? I mean, normally, that would be a cue to seek help for the student. But I don’t see where you can argue in good faith that going along with a child’s delusions is okay when they’re about “gender”, but not specific identities.
ML lol go ahead and virtue signal to the rest of the tribe how worthy you are to belong by your fiercer and fiercer denunciations of those outside of the tribe.
"They're evil!"
"No, they're evil Nazis!"
"No no, they're evil Nazi pedophiles!"
"Ooo, good one!"
No serious person would ever reasonably conclude that I'm an actual Nazi. You say that just to virtue signal to your tribe. I'm a libertarian who is a fiscal conservative and a social liberal. I want acceptance and tolerance of diverse people, not repression and gas chambers for minority groups. Get it? But when you are so far down the tribalistic rabbit hole that you are, anyone preaching anything other than doctrinaire right-wing social conservatism is a "Nazi".
"He doesn't want to put the trannies into mental institutions! That means he's a NAZI!"
And for the record, I don't think you are "human garbage". I think you are actually an intelligent person who has become cynical and misanthropic because you do not see your values reflected as much as you would like in the wider world. You think it's madness and insanity that so many people have decided to ditch traditional social conservative values because to you they are not just good ideas but objectively right. So instead of trying to explore why otherwise intelligent people are disagreeing with your interpretation of things, you retreat into tribal madness and denounce as "Nazis" the people who are vocal in disagreeing with you. In short I think you have unexamined assumptions behind the moral values that you hold most dear, and when the rest of the world is challenging you to examine these assumptions, you lash out in anger instead of doing a bit of self-reflection.
And if the kid identifies as Napoleon Bonaparte? Jesus Christ? I mean, normally, that would be a cue to seek help for the student.
But choosing not to adopt a traditional gender role is not "mental illness". I mean you said so just below that a woman who prefers to do 'masculine things' is still a "real woman".
"The purpose of 'fat acceptance' is not to MAKE people fatter by feeding them extra cookies, just instead to treat them with dignity if they are fat."
No it isn't. It's to deflect criticism of unhealthy lifestyles. Doctors are being censured for telling patients that they need to lose weight.
And, for a *highschool-level* sex ed class, what is wrong with discussing how to have safe oral sex? What are you afraid of?
Again jeff asks why adults can't teach non adults how to have sex.
Creepy as fuck.
Oh come on. I mean, admittedly it didn't cover oral or anal, but I had a sex ed class *at my church* when i was *~13*. It certainly covered the mechanics of vaginal sex. *At a church*. The textbook even had (non-prurient) illustrations of nude bodies, the horror.
Sexual mechanics is just basic biology. It's suitable information for high schoolers. (And anyone who grew up on a farm already knows the basics of how it works.) There's also important safety information to cover, like protection options and disease transmission potential. It would be irresponsible not to cover it from a public health standpoint. (And explaining some of the medical risks likely requires a clinical description of the mechanics).
Now, 'what does semen taste like?' is a little weird, given it's likely subjective and many teachers may not have 'firsthand experience'. But :shrug:. Teenagers are going to have questions. 'Ask your parents' doesn't feel like a great answer to this question...
Thank you for bringing some sanity to this discussion.
There's also important safety information to cover, like protection options and disease transmission potential.
Oh, but Jesse doesn't even want that. Read below. I guess all he wants is "the penis goes in the vagina" and that's the end of class.
And again jeff lies about what is said. Discussing stds is also a biological effect of sex ed.
Teaching sex positions or ways to have sex to students is not.
And it is creepy as fuck you want to teach kids how to have sex.
I didn't lie, I inferred, since you are very vague in what you actually do support. You find 10,000 ways to criticize what teachers are doing but you offer precious little in constructive advice in how to make things better.
You wrote "They should stick to biological functions" and that's it. When you are vague, then people try to infer the details. If you don't like that then don't be so vague.
Furthermore, from the teaching materials that Rufo himself presented, the "what does semen taste like" question was NOT presented as a topic that teachers needed to teach to kids, but it was brought up as a question that teachers should be prepared for IF a smartass kid asked the teacher.
So this entire outrage machine is completely bonkers.
Those are a lot of assumptions you through into the material. Lol. Wow jeff. Talk about dishonest argumentation. I posted the wording exactly from the material.
You quoted Rufo, not the material.
What does something that happened at your church, which I'm assuming your parents were aware of, have to do with something that government employees are doing to children without knowledge or consent from parents?
Biology is generally part of acceptable high school curricula, and public health is a legitimate government interest. I'm not sure what you mean by 'without knowledge or consent from parents' - surely the parents know their child is in a health class where sex ed is being taught. Does it bother you that children frequently get instructed about evolution without explicit informed consent of parents, too?
Also, 'doing to' seems like the wrong verb here. That implies inappropriateness that I am certain is *not* part of the actual curriculum.
FWIW, my church offered a human sexuality class earlier than the local public schools (and that was superior to what my local high school had no less). The point is that this isn't some verbotim knowledge that's beyond the pale for educational instruction, and the church didn't run the exact details of the class past the parents either.
Did it cover how to insert your penis and 9ther positions? Or did it cover the biological aspects of releasing sperm into a vaginal canal?
Do you see the difference of "try these other positions" vs "here is what happened when you have sex?"
Did it cover what semen tasted like?
We're talking about how to have SAFE SEX, not the Kama Sutra. WTF is wrong with you?
How in the world did you go from "why not teach kids about how to have safe sex" to "oh let's teach them how to do it cowboy style"? WTF man?
Also 13 years old is not kindergardes, well unless your jeff
"Safe Oral Sex
Safer Vaginal Sex
Safer Anal Sex"
is not specific positions. It's 'how to be safer if the penis is entering this hole'. How it gets there can easily be left to the imagination.
Chemjeff child groomer is the most dishonest person who posts on these boards.
What is to be done with pathologically dishonest personalities who seek to impose their vile fantasies upon you and refuse to acknowledge reality?
We have a right to self defense. All other avenues being exhausted, kinetic force is required.
Chemjeff's refusal to live and let live combined with his inability or unwillingness to stop constantly lying have forfeit his initial right to life.
He is a predator engaged in continuous aggression, and he should be justly ended.
Goodby, Nardz
LOL
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy9_lfjQopU
Sock outing?
Looks like it
Jeff. Can you discuss what is actually happening instead of being a sea lion and trying to change the topic to something that isn't under discussion?
Nobody should be shunned or attacked. But schools also shouldn't encourage and groom. That is the discussion here. Especially when done against the notice to parents.
I see you can't make arguments based on current reality without outing yourself as for grooming though.
I'll even answer another argument you made the other day. You said the right wants to force kids to dress in pants and button downs if a boy, dresses if female. This of course was an attack on religious type behaviors. But the irony is it is the side you protect that is telling boys who like pink they have to become a girl or a girl who likes to climb trees to become a boy. What you advocate for doesn't allow them just to be individuals who aren't bound by interests they have regardless of gender or sex. That is the true irony of the question you just attempted to switch to.
Nobody should be shunned or attacked.
Good we agree.
But schools also shouldn't encourage and groom.
Encourage what? Transgenderism?
If a school teacher says "gender is different than sex", is that grooming?
Let's suppose a teenager is genuinely transgender for a moment. How do you suggest a school should support that student, without shunning that student, but at the same time not "encourage" transgenderism?
I literally posted examples above shit weasel.
Do you think it is appropriate for schools to discuss the taste of semen or how to do anal sex? Hint. Most parents disagree which is why Republicans are now more trusted on schooling. Although groomers prefer the democrats.
Likewise schools don't need transition closets or hiding things from parents to teach acceptance. They can literally just teach kids that people have different behaviors so don't be a bully. This material you have been given over and over goes far beyond that.
Do you think it is appropriate for schools to discuss the taste of semen or how to do anal sex?
For a highschool-level sex-ed class? I don't see the particular harm in it.
Why do you object to it?
Likewise schools don't need transition closets or hiding things from parents to teach acceptance. They can literally just teach kids that people have different behaviors so don't be a bully.
There's two different issues here though.
One is of course for schools to teach kids to accept each other. I hope we both agree with that.
The other is to try to get parents to accept their own kids for who they are. Schools don't have much control over that (nor should they really). But schools ALSO have to look out for the welfare of the children under their supervision. Believe it or not, Jesse, there are parents who are extremely intolerant of "the LGBTQ ideology" and will take it out on their kids if their kids go to them and say that they are not the stereotypical heterosexual kids that they thought they were.
"There's two different issues here though."
No. Stop constantly being a shitweasel always trying to redirect the conversation away from the evidence, to the narrative you want to craft.
It is Jesse here who is pushing a narrative by deliberately trying to conflate two issues, acceptance of a nontraditional student by his/her peers, and acceptance of a nontraditional student by his/her parents. They are not the same.
No. Jesse provided hard evidence. You're the one pushing a narrative.
It is sad. His very first response to me is what he accuses me of doing.
No it isnt shit weasel. I've been very clear and consistent on the issues. Schools are not moral centers. They should not be helping kids transition. I am not conflating two things. I even called you out on your first reply for attempting it. Lol.
Schools are not moral centers. They should not be helping kids transition.
It is not possible to have a completely amoral education. Any educational philosophy is going to be guided by some moral precepts. The only question is what those precepts ought to be.
They should not be helping kids transition.
Should schools accept transgender students for who they are, or try to talk them out of it?
Nobody is asking for no morality to be taught you ridiculous sophist fuck. But the state should not be the epicenter of that teaching. There are other social institutions that teach it. Church, social groups, families. But that's not what you want. You want it taught in schools to indoctrinate kids from the state.
The same tactics used in most socialist paradigms from nazi Germany to maoist China.
Again, this is why you're an authoritarian statist.
Nobody is asking for no morality to be taught
Actually you have, in the past. But that's okay, this is you changing your mind in your own way and I can accept that.
There are other social institutions that teach it. Church, social groups, families.
Good for them! I fully support that.
But that's not what you want. You want it taught in schools to indoctrinate kids from the state.
Oh look, more boring words that you try to stuff in my mouth. Yawn.
Just to be clear, I don't want public schools to get into teaching religious dogma or anything. I want whatever moral guidance that there is in a public school education to be based on broad humanist principles. Don't murder your neighbor, things like that. And I would hope any school does that, regardless if it is run by the government or not.
I would prefer entirely privatized schools, but if we are to have public schools, then they should actually do their job.
And again jeff takes a clear and concise statement and argues it doesn't say what it clearly says.
No, Jesse, this is where you take what I said and catastrophize it into "Stalinist Russia". It is absurd.
And Jeff takes my clear and concise response and creates a strawman.
0-? Lost count today.
It is not possible to have a completely amoral education. Any educational philosophy is going to be guided by some moral precepts. The only question is what those precepts ought to be.
Gee, then there’s no problem with pushing traditional Jude’s-Christian morals in public school and that transgenderism and even homosexuality are carnal sins. If not pushing a moral framework in schools is only ever an illusion, I’m a hell of a lot more comfortable with the morality of Christian conservatives than lying child groomers.
Gee, then there’s no problem with pushing traditional Jude’s-Christian morals in public school and that transgenderism and even homosexuality are carnal sins.
Well, even despite the First Amendment's prohibitions on such things, I think that would be a bad idea for a public school that tries to be inclusive for all students who are attending.
"inclusive for all students"
Except those who believe in reality and being honest.
They can fuck right off, eh groomer?
Yes I object to schools teaching kids about anal sex. That is not the domain of education. Schools have a crisis with basic reading and math and you want them to waste time talking about sex positions. This is why you're considered a groomer here.
Adults should not be teaching kids sexual acts. They should stick to biological functions.
What a sick fuck.
And then you transition into government teaching parents how to treat their own kids. What the actual fuck? Schools are not moral centers. This is why you get called an authoritarian statist.
Should highschools even have a sex ed class at all?
I answered that already.
I don't think you did. It sounds like you don't want public schools to have a sex ed class at all. Is that what you want?
I in fact did in the answer you replied to dummy.
My actual experience. I had the public high school sex ed class, but my son did the private Stanford Medical Center sex ed class. The latter was better.
So, I’d prefer they not include it in public high school curriculum, and let the parents find better. Don’t have a strong opinion about it, though.
Well, not teaching it at all is doing kids a disservice. Just like if schools were to omit other foundational topics. It boils down to what really constitutes an 'education'. I strongly believe that an education should be broad classical education, should focus on critical thinking, and should prepare students for the 'real world'. Teaching about human sexuality - in a professional and age-appropriate manner - absolutely falls in that latter category.
I get that point of view. And acknowledge you did say you’d prefer all education be private, anyway.
Although, I got the sense public schools started teaching sex ed, which started around the time I was a kid, because they were trying to head off problems with teen pregnancies and STDs. As opposed, to a more idealistic motivation of “broad classical education”.
They didn’t teach us other life preparation, such as personal finance. Home economics courses were fading, for growing feminist reasons, in contrast to their great emphasis when my older sisters were in high school.
They did still teach us drivers ed, which doesn’t seem to be covered by public high school these days.
And Jeff jumps to a false dichotomy of either teach kids the kamasutra or nothing.
Again. The issue is with teaching kids how to have sex when the domain of schools is to teach them the aspects of biology. How implantation occurs. Risks of STDs. Etc. Not "try these new positions" as we've seen the left advocate for.
I agree with you that sex ed should not be "let's try new positions".
I actually think we mostly agree with each other on what should be in a proper sex-ed curriculum. It ought to cover basic reproductive biology, talk about terminology, talk about diseases, talk about ways to minimize risk of pregnancy and disease including safe sex tips.
But if we were to agree, then you couldn't try to paint me as some sort of left-wing whacko. So you have to keep up this pretense of a disagreement and invent new arguments to stuff in my mouth, this latest one being "chemjeff wants sex ed to be sex therapy with the Kama Sutra as the textbook".
That's why his screen name is Chem Jeff radical statist
Also, could you answer the question?
If a school teacher says "gender is different than sex", is that grooming?
Maybe, but it's definitely lying.
"Maybe"? It's a yes-or-no question.
No it isn't you demagogic fuck.
"gender is different than sex"
It is grooming.
It's teaching fantasy as true despite contradicting physical, biological reality.
It is explicitly instructing psychosis.
There is absolutely no reason to do that other than to manipulate children's minds so they will be more malleable and prepped for the teacher's use.
It is cult programming.
Yes we all know your position on "grooming" - simply saying the word 'gay' in public schools is "grooming". That is why, for you, the "Don't Say Gay" description of the Florida law is actually truthful.
And again jeff reverts from his claims of only wanting to teach acceptance to demanding radical gender theory be taught.
Can't even remain consistent in the same thread.
Chemjeff stalinist pedophile cannot refute what I've said, and falls back to his usual position of straight up lying.
He continues to prove the accuracy of every assessment about him.
I don't even care about you any more, Nardz. Why should I? You have threatened to murder me more times than I can count. Why should I give two figs about your opinion, unless it is to use them against you and your tribe?
You have threatened to murder me more times than I can count.
I can't recall that. Are you lying again?
And why is it a lie?
What is the word you would like to use to describe the difference between a person's reproductive biology, and a person's social expectations associated with that reproductive biology?
So why is does gender transition involve assuming sexual characteristics? A fake penis, testicles, vaginia or breast implants if gender is unrelated to sex.
Your rhetoric isn't tied to your actions.
If gender is a construct why are they taking sex hormones?
The people who transition are taking hormones because they want their gender identity to more closely align with their appearance. Because their appearance as dictated by biology doesn't match with their gender identity. Because they are DIFFERENT. See, this isn't so hard.
And gender and sex are *related*, but that doesn't make them identical.
And here jeff now admits gender is aligned with the sexual display of a human body formed by sex based DNA and it is a requirement in children. He has wandered far from his initial claims of wanting to simply teach acceptance into having kids be groomed or indoctrinated into a controversial form of discussion on radical gender theory. A discussion adults do not even agree on the baseline.
He also defends transitioning kids to adopt the assumed looks and roles of classical sex based differences as part of the required transition instead of treating kids as individuals who may have differences or interests despite their biological sex.
Once again jeff proves his initial discussion talking points were just talking points and we are back to what I accused him of in the first post.
No, this is you transparently trying to stuff words in my mouth because you cannot stand it that we actually agree on something for once. You can't have that because it undercuts your entire argument that I am some radical gender weirdo who wants to force kids to chop off their penises. Sorry, that is not who I am and that is never who I was.
"And gender and sex are *related*"
Until 10 years ago 'gender' was always, let me emphasize 'ALWAYS', the term to denote biological sex. In fact 'biological sex' is the much newer term.
"The "male-or-female sex" sense is attested in English from early 15c."
https://www.etymonline.com/word/gender
"Because their appearance as dictated by biology doesn't match with their gender identity. Because they are DIFFERENT. See, this isn't so hard."
Apparently it is for you, because you still refuse to acknowledge that these gender "identities" are exactly aligned with male and female sexual characteristics.
ML, have you noted Jeff's reliance on circular arguments and redirection between two different argument responses based on what is being discussed? Despite both sets of arguments being in competition with his initial claims of just wanting acceptance in one and relying on accepted gender theory in the other?
At this point his style of argumentation has won over a single person here, sarcasmic.
Who does he think he is convincing??
Do you think Jeff notices it?
Perhaps this is the source of confusion in your mind (if there is any):
I don't see how it is possible to accept kids as they are without recognizing that sex is different than gender.
How would it work otherwise? If a teenage girl claiming to be transgender goes to school, and you want the school to be accepting of that girl as she is, then it must necessarily include the fact that her biological sex of female doesn't align with her gender identity of male. Otherwise how the school genuinely accept that he/she is transgender?
Or, perhaps what you mean by "acceptance", is that if a teenage girl claiming to be transgender goes to school, that the school should just pretend to play along with her 'mental delusion' while still insisting at least privately that she really is female in both sex and gender, and calling that "acceptance". Is that what you mean by "acceptance", Jesse?
Jeff. I'm not confused. I've explained your sophistry and argumentation. Why do you think I'm confused?
"gender identity of male"
How can that be if gender is a social construction unrelated to biological sex.
ML: Sex and gender identity are *related*, but not *identical*. Get it?
Jesse: Well you seem to think that a belief that sex and gender are different is evidence of some type of radical ideology that goes beyond acceptance. It's not that radical and it simply relies on empirical observation. That people have the liberty to behave differently than what society demands that they do according to their biological sex. That's it.
"Sex and gender identity are *related*, but not *identical*. Get it?"
No, because it's a lie. Just because some perverts want to chuck a 500-year-old definition in order to gaslight, doesn't make it true.
"Gender" is the word to denote biological sex, not a phony cosplay identity.
"Gender" is the word to denote biological sex
Fine, then you come up with your own terms for the following five categories:
1. A biological man, born with male reproductive organs, who conforms to the social conventions expected of biological males
2. A biological man, born with male reproductive organs, who conforms to the social conventions expected of biological females
3. A biological woman, born with female reproductive organs, who conforms to the social conventions expected of biological males
4. A biological woman, born with female reproductive organs, who conforms to the social conventions expected of biological females
5. A person born with the reproductive organs of both males and females, who chooses the social conventions to which he/she wishes to conform
Instead of typing all that out, I would prefer to use the shorthand notation of "sex" and "gender" to refer to these different categories. But, hey, you do you. What words do you want to use to describe them?
See. Here jeff is using a typical sea lion technique where he jumps from the accepted baseline argument and then forces the audience to accept a baseline set of assumptions nobody has agreed to.
Gender and sex are inherently linked. Until the last decade they were used interchangeably. But jeff needs one to start with the baseline of radical gender theory to pursue his arguments.
Gender and sex are related, but they are not the same. They are not "INHERENTLY" linked though. It is absolutely possible for a biological male to flawlessly act and conform to every social convention of a woman.
And I don't even know what you mean by "radical gender theory". Is "radical gender theory" the idea that not all men act like stereotypical men, or not all women act like stereotypical women?
For not knowing what radical gender theory is you are highly versed in their praxis.
Odd.
Go listen to James Lindsay on New discourses. He reads and analyzes the papers from the professors ensconced in it. But you know you are simply lying when you say you dont know what it is.
I really doubt you actually know what "radical gender theory" is either.
To me it is simple empirical observation that sex is different than gender. Biology dictates reproductive organs. Society dictates that men wear neckties and women wear high heels. Biology doesn't dictate that. I observe both biological males and biological females acting in ways that don't conform to the traditional gender roles that society places on a particular sex.
I literally told you where you can listen yo the theory from the sources pushing it.
You refuse and instead accuse others who understand what it is dont know anything about it despite you just saying 3 posts up you don't know about it.
So from "I'm ignorant" to "you dont know about it" is quite the jump.
Look jeff. Whoever told you that you were intelligent should be arrested on fraud charges.
To me it is simple empirical observation that sex is different than gender. Biology dictates reproductive organs. Society dictates that men wear neckties and women wear high heels. Biology doesn't dictate that. I observe both biological males and biological females acting in ways that don't conform to the traditional gender roles that society places on a particular sex.
This is a rhetorical bait and switch. A subtle one, to be sure, but a bait and switch, nonetheless. He’s equating “gender” and “gender roles”. And it’s actually quite an insulting one. It implies that a woman with masculine qualities or who does masculine things is somehow less a real woman or a man with feminine qualities or who does feminine things is somehow less a real man.
It’s sort of pathetic that reducing humanity to their sexual stereotypes is now considered “progressive”.
This is a rhetorical bait and switch. A subtle one, to be sure, but a bait and switch, nonetheless. He’s equating “gender” and “gender roles”. And it’s actually quite an insulting one. It implies that a woman with masculine qualities or who does masculine things is somehow less a real woman or a man with feminine qualities or who does feminine things is somehow less a real man.
Well, you are just begging the question here. What is a "real woman"? What is a "real man"? Is a "real man" merely a human being with a penis? Or is a "real man" a human being who wears pants, drinks beer, watches football, and fixes car engines? From a sociological perspective, a "real man" or a "real woman" is INDEED based on the degree to which the person follows the traditional gender roles. A woman who liked to do "manly" things would be referred to as a "tomboy", distinct from all the other women who didn't do those things. A man who liked to do "womanly" things would be insultingly referred to as gay or a "fairy" (nowadays: "soyboy", I suppose), distinct from all the other men who didn't do those things. So it all depends on how you define your terms.
Seeing as gender being different than sex is a recent construct, i dont k ow why a teacher should be telling kindergartens that fact at all.
Saying don't be a bully doesn't require gender racist theory discussions.
Sorry radical gender theory.
Seeing as gender being different than sex is a recent construct, i dont k ow why a teacher should be telling kindergartens that fact at all.
Oh, so you think it is a "fact" that gender is different from sex? Terrific. Now we are getting somewhere.
So if you don't think it's appropriate to discuss the difference between gender and sex at kindergarten, at what grade level do you think it would be most appropriate?
No I do not think it is a fact. That is what you have attempted to set as a fact in your baseline assumptions as stated above.
Please learn to read.
Oh, okay, well then you misspoke. I'm feeling charitable today so I won't accuse you of deliberately lying.
I do believe it is a part of objective reality that one's reproductive biology does not necessarily dictate the social conventions to which one must obey. There exist plenty of examples of biological men successfully acting like women, and biological women successfully acting like men. So the word that I give to describe one's reproductive biology is "sex", and the word that I give to describe one's chosen set of sex-related social conventions is "gender".
I mean, does RuPaul not exist? Does Caitlyn Jenner not exist? Are they not successful examples of people who successfully adopt the social conventions other than those dictated by biological sex?
I didn't mispeak. I'm retelling what you assume as fact based on your attempted restructuring of assumptions.
God damn man. This is getting pathetic for you.
I mean, does RuPaul not exist? Does Caitlyn Jenner not exist? Are they not successful examples of people who successfully adopt the social conventions other than those dictated by biological sex?
And post modernism in action. Someone exists which means X idea is the truth. A subjective response. Lol. Not based on repeatable observation or science, but on this person says X.
Amazing display jeff.
What the actual fuck do you think you were trying to prove?
When the schitzo says they see people does that mean the people he sees are real?
What an ignorant argument you make.
People like RuPaul and Caitlyn Jenner are empirical examples of people whose gender identity does not conform to their biological sex. That sex and gender are in fact different. They are living proof.
I do have some firsthand experience with raising kids in extremely progressive San Francisco Bay Area/Silicon Valley.
When my son was about seven, one of his friends started saying that he had feelings that he was really a girl. Although we know the family pretty well, it seemed like there was genuine feelings on the boy’s part, but also possibly some encouragement from his mother. As an insight into how liberal his mom was, in college, even though she was straight herself, she was a member of the campus gay and lesbian club.
The interesting part was when my son expressed support for his friend’s right to dress as a girl. Several mothers in our neighborhood tried to encourage my son to dress as a girl, too.
It wasn’t grooming as conservatives envision it. It was more a view that trans kids are special and courageous, and it was a social status marker to have a trans child.
But, conservatives aren’t imagining the whole thing. They misperceive progressive support for trans kids, though, in subtle ways.
Other story, happened just this year:
We moved away from California about 3.5 years ago. We went back to visit, and met up with several families we knew. 5 out of the 6 pre-teen and teenage girls we met up with had decided that they were now “gender fluid” and had changed their names to something like “Willow” or “Xoomer”. It was clearly going beyond a naturally-occurring rate of gender dysphoria to be some kind of fad among the teenage girls. Again, many of the most progressive moms were excited about their daughters being gender fluid.
Curiously, the boys we met up with didn’t seem to be into the fad. They were just presenting as traditional boys.
Just one more followup comment. Then boy who felt like a girl is now a teenager, and now also says he is neither a boy or girl but “gender fluid”. And has changed his name several times. (I know I’m using “his”. I don’t know anymore what his preferred pronouns are.)
Just for the record, his preference has nothing to do with the structure of the English language.
Men are men
Women are women
They can't switch back and forth
The earth is not flat
The English language does evolve, sometimes in ways that old fogies like us don’t like and don’t think is right.
The whole gender-neutral language thing is even more at odds with Spanish and other Latin languages.
Anyway, the takeaway from my firsthand experience with progressive culture:
a) Conservatives aren't just making the whole thing up. But it isn't some nefarious plot to groom children. It's more that progressive mothers get excited about any sign that a kid is gender fluid, and encourage it because they consider it "courageous" and, well, progressive. They'd never admit it, but it's also a social bragging right to have a gender fluid kid.
b) Among the girls themselves, there is a fad of being gender fluid. Which isn't to say there aren't a few kids who are genuinely feeling serious gender dysphoria.
c) The dads never seem to be excited about their kids being trans, but go along with it because their wives are excited about it.
That's what I'm seeing with a couple of friends near me in NJ who had a daughter who's now their son and growing a beard. Makes me sad. And they're retconning it to make it that she was born a boy and given a boy's name from birth.
The father was shunned by friends because everyone sensed it was a sore spot. Everyone knew it was the mother's pride and the father just kept quiet about it. Now the mother is shunning people too for un-wokeness.
Thank you for the anecdotes. It sounds like your examples of progressive parents are instances where they are raising their kids to have different values than conservative parents. Which is totally fine. I imagine in previous years they might have been parents who would have encouraged their kids to go join the Peace Corps, or go backpack across Europe. Are they rushing out to get their kids gender reassignment surgery based on a fad? If not then I don't see the harm in this.
They are not rushing out to do gender reassignment surgery.
Although, I think my son’s childhood friend may be on hormone blockers.
"But it isn't some nefarious plot to groom children. " This isn't really a conclusion you can draw. Your stories refer to the effect, not the cause. Who is directing what is being taught in schools? And as each generation passes things become the accepted "norm" and the root causes are forgotten.
Social status is part of social contagious as mentioned before. Encouraging someone to change their behaviors or commit actions in return for social admiration is in fact an element of grooming. Cults find loners and lovers and offer them applause and love for converting to their ideas and such.
You literally described community grooming attempts.
Encouraging someone to change their behaviors or commit actions in return for social admiration is in fact an element of grooming.
This is a fallacy - affirming the consequent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent
Specifically:
1: If a person is a groomer, then the person encourages someone to change behavior in return for social admiration.
2: Here is a person that encourages someone to change behavior in return for social admiration.
3: Therefore, that person is a groomer.
This is a fallacy because a "groomer" is only a subset of people who encourage someone to change behavior in return for social admiration. There are many people who encourage someone to change behavior in return for social admiration, who are not groomers. For example, if Alice encourages Bob to join a protest on behalf of a cause, with the understanding that Alice and Alice's friends will shower Bob with praise for supporting this cause, it would be rather ridiculous to claim that Alice is "grooming" Bob.
I can’t see JesseAz’s comments because I’ve had him blocked for a long time now, but I agree it’s a loooong stretch to call what I just described anecdotally as “grooming”.
There’s no predatory aspect to it whatsoever. It is mother’s trying to raise their children to be happy.
A credible critique is that they are misguided, but they are not acting out of malice or selfishness at all.
LOL
"Munchausen-by-proxy totes isn't child abuse!"
For me, the biggest criticism is the culture of groupthink among them. The progressive orthodoxy cannot be questioned.
For example, many of the same moms who now have gender fluid daughters, and the fender fluid daughters, we’re huge Harry Potter fans a few years back. Now, among them, Rowling has been canceled and is disdained as a TERF.
And, as I mentioned, I see signs the husbands aren’t comfortable with the trend but don’t want to say anything. That’s the worst part.
Not sure where to jump in the conversation today, so I'll comment here. The way I see it, the history of Western culture's sex/gender world views breaks down like this:
A) Traditional world view: Men and women have clear roles and behaviors. To use chemjeff's terminology, sex and gender were in lock step, often enforced by law. (Aside: Curiously, they change every now and then. For example, in the early 1900s you can see pictures of very young boys, FDR for example, in dresses. In the 1980s, manly men went around wearing pink Izod shirts.)
B) Traditional feminism/gay rights: Feminists start asserting that you are still a woman no matter how you dress or behave. Lesbians can be anything from butch (I remember riding on BART during a lesbian festival event, where there were old "crones" with beards) to a "lipstick lesbian".
This view of the world eventually became generally accepted, even among a lot of conservatives.
C) Trans positive world view of about 10 years ago: If you are a man who feels like dressing up and behaving like a woman, maybe you really are a woman.
Conservatives are like, "Hold on, doesn't that completely contradict worldview B?" Even B-school liberal feminists like J.K. Rowling question C and ask, "What about worldview B?" In return, progressives who are in line with the C orthodoxy call J.K. Rowling a TERF, and try to cancel her.
The really pernicious thing about worldview C isn't worldview C per se, but the cancelation of anyone who doesn't go along with C.
D) What I am personally observing, C is morning into D: "I am a biological boy or girl, but I am gender fluid. I can dress or act any way I want, make up my own name and pronouns." D doesn't contradict B like C contradicts B. It is also less likely to lead to anything like gender surgery and is more conducive to dabbling in.
D seems to me to be a watering down of C, and a subconscious attempt among progressives to reconcile the huge contradiction between B and C.
morning -> morphing
The evolution of C into D is illustrated by the story of my son's childhood friend. He started out saying he was a boy who felt like he is a girl. Currently, he is saying he doesn't feel like anything specific; that he has boyish and girlish aspects to his personality.
As someone who has observed his behavior this whole time, he personally reminds me a lot of David Bowie.
You said the right wants to force kids to dress in pants and button downs if a boy, dresses if female. This of course was an attack on religious type behaviors.
It wasn't an attack on 'religious type behaviors' specifically. It was an attempt to get you to distinguish between sex and gender for a moment.
Sex = biology
Gender = social conventions
But the irony is it is the side you protect that is telling boys who like pink they have to become a girl or a girl who likes to climb trees to become a boy.
Perhaps there are a few nutbars who are telling "boys who like pink" that they HAVE to "become a girl". That's wrong in my view.
My position is that teachers should support children's identity, no matter what it is.
What you advocate for doesn't allow them just to be individuals who aren't bound by interests they have regardless of gender or sex.
That is EXACTLY what I am advocating.
What I seem Team Red as advocating, is that one's biology *necessarily* determines one's gender. That if a person is born a biological male, that that person should be told in school, and by the larger society, that that person *MUST* act like a stereotypical boy. If that person has different interests, or doesn't want to act like a stereotypical boy, then that means there is "something wrong" with that person and he/she deserves mental treatment. That is what I object to.
No you aren't advocating for that because you defend practices that go far beyond treating people as individuals you shit weasel.
Again, you are lying.
Teaching kindergartens to play with their pronouns is not teaching acceptance. It is teaching them to normalize and pretend to be something they are not.
Teachers going on til too bragging about how many kids they've converted is not them teaching individuality but transitioning kids.
Reading books like I am Jazz that tells the story of a kid who liked pink and head towels at age 2 to become a girl is normal is not teaching acceptance, but telling kids to transition if they feel different.
Kids applauding kids who transition and encouraging kids to do so is not celebrating individuality but is grooming.
This is you having lost so many arguments where you defended the above with things like what about Snow White and Ulysses that shows you to be a chronic liar. Your small retreat and reconstruction of your views is apparent to all here because you've defended the above and attacked those against activities that fall under the normal definition of grooming from sex to cults. There is a reason Abigail Schriever had enough material and research of the trans movement devolving into a social contagion. Not only do you ignore the evidence you attack the evidence.
Youre not fooling anybody shit weasel.
Teaching kindergartens to play with their pronouns is not teaching acceptance. It is teaching them to normalize and pretend to be something they are not.
How do YOU know what "they are not"? Hmm? You said you don't want schools or teachers to shun kids. But now you want schools to force conformity to traditional gender stereotypes.
How can you say in the same breath that you want to treat kids as individuals, and then denounce teachers who are trying to treat kids as individuals?
Teachers going on til too bragging about how many kids they've converted is not them teaching individuality but transitioning kids.
I really doubt any teacher is bragging about "converting" anyone. This is probably some out-of-context exaggeration from LibsOfTikTok or Rufo or something.
Reading books like I am Jazz that tells the story of a kid who liked pink and head towels at age 2 to become a girl is normal is not teaching acceptance, but telling kids to transition if they feel different.
It is absolutely teaching acceptance. It's not telling kids that they MUST transition. It is ONE STORY of many about kids dealing with feelings of not fitting in. What is wrong with reading this story ALONG WITH reading all the other stories too?
You know why I bring up Snow White and Ulysses? Because they demonstrate the hypocrisy of your tribe. You claim to be against "sexualizing kids" but here we have stories, commonly read in school, that have stereotypical displays of sexual activity in the former case, and graphic depictions of sex in the latter case, that no one bats an eye about. Because it's ultimately not about the "sexualizing kids", it's about getting LGBTQ stuff entirely out of the classroom.
Jesse, do you agree with the following statement?
If you don't, could you explain why?
That if a person is born a biological male, that that person should be told in school, and by the larger society, that that person *MUST* act like a stereotypical boy. If that person has different interests, or doesn't want to act like a stereotypical boy, then that means there is "something wrong" with that person and he/she deserves mental treatment.
Take your strawmanning hypothetical and cram it up your demagogic ass.
Argue against what Jesse says, stop trying to trick everyone into debating what you want to talk about instead.
Yes or no, do you agree with it?
If you don't agree with it, that's fine. I'd just like to know why you don't agree with it.
You created a strawman i literally called you out on above.
Lol. It is your side saying kids have to confirm based on a gender identity. A boy has to change if he likes pink, a girl if she likes to climb. It is your side forcing conformity of gender based on interests.
How dumb are you?
Lol. It is your side saying kids have to confirm based on a gender identity. A boy has to change if he likes pink, a girl if she likes to climb.
Some people might believe that, but I don't. I don't want to force a kid to transition if that kid doesn't want to.
Ahh back to your original reframing after outing yourself above.
If that is what you believe then you wouldn't argue schools should teach the parents how to treat their children. You wouldn't defend schools hiding transition closets. You would call out teachers celebrating transitions. You'd admit to the growth clusters aligning with a social contagion.
But thats not what you do. You defend schools over parents. You defend transitioning young kids despite many countries in Europe pulling back from that after a decade of study.
You've retreated back to lying about your arguments.
What does "hiding transition closets" have to do with not forcing kids to undergo a gender transition?
I think you are deliberately confusing two issues here.
The first issue is letting the kid express him/herself as he/she sees fit. I am completely in favor of that, as are you. That is great.
The second issue is what to do if the kid's desires for self-expression contradict the parent's expectations for that kid.
If a boy says "I think I am transgender and I want to wear a dress in school", but the dad says "my son isn't going to wear no goddamn dress in school", what should the school do?
A stunning display of sophistry jeff. You are a proud post modernist.
I literally don't understand your argument at this point.
You say you want schools to accept kids as they are. But then you get upset with "radical gender theory", which I am guessing teaches that sex is different than gender, so you don't want that.
Oh, I get it now! When you say you want schools to "accept kids as they are", what you really mean is that because you think transgender people are mentally ill, that for schools to "accept kids as they are" it means treating them like they are mentally ill. Maybe setting them up with a counselor or psychotherapist to change their mind and to 'cure' them? Is that what you mean by "accepting them for who they are"?
And Jeff again does what I accused him of earlier. That it is his side saying kids must conform to their gender but accuses his opponents of requiring conformity.
This is the opposite of what I said above where I think kids can have different styles or interests despite their DNA and should express themselves as individuals, not convince them they are the wrong sex.
Jeff again is caught in his own projection.
I think kids can have different styles or interests despite their DNA and should express themselves as individuals
I completely agree with you. 1,000%.
No you don't. You just argued above schools should transition and teach kids to do so above.
I have never said that any school should require or mandate that any kid undergo a gender transition.
If a kid WANTS to undergo a gender transition and WANTS the school to support him/herself in that process, then I think the school should be supportive of the kid.
But if a kid DOESN'T want to undergo a gender transition, then I don't think schools should push it onto kids.
What do you think the school should do if the kid WANTS to transition?
This is you having lost so many arguments
Jesse, all you bring here on this topic is inchoate outrage.
"Oh look, here is some instructional material that discusses the question 'what does semen taste like'? I'm not even going to bother investigating the context or the pedagogical strategy here, I'm just going to post it and demand everyone join me in a chorus of outrage and those who don't I will denounce them as groomers and pedophiles."
That is your whole schtick here. Just generate the fumes of outrage without thinking or reason.
Jesse, all you bring here on this topic is inchoate outrage.
He brought concrete, real-world examples. You're the one trying to handwave them away.
Like this: "'what does semen taste like'? I'm not even going to bother investigating the context or the pedagogical strategy here"
There's no pedagogical strategy in the world that necessitates an adult discussing eating cum with a minor. There's a pedophile strategy, but nothing pedagogical. And you know that.
This is why I say you're evil.
There's no pedagogical strategy in the world that necessitates an adult discussing eating cum with a minor.
LOL if you look at the actual materials, this topic is presented in the context of how a teacher might respond if a STUDENT asks what semen tastes like.
And there might be a student there who asks this as a genuine question, but probably more likely, this question would get asked by a smartass teenager trying to embarrass the teacher.
I think it's absolutely relevant for teachers to come prepared to class for how to deal with smartass students, don't you think?
"this topic is presented in the context of how a teacher might respond if a STUDENT asks what semen tastes like."
Any response that doesn't result in the student being immediately sent to the principals office is dubious. Indulging the inquiry is flat out pedophiliac.
So if you were the principal, what rule, real or imagined, would you charge this smartass kid with breaking?
Being crude and inappropriate in class, you decietful fuck. You know as well as I that the question borders on sexual harassment.
I agree that it would be very inappropriate in a literature or history class, but it's a *sex ed* class. And sure the kid asking it is probably being a smartass, but what if it is an actual legit question?
And you're doing the same thing that Jesse is doing. You aren't even bothering to read the material or even think about the issue. All you two do is just regurgitate the outrage that right-wing social media tells you to regurgitate. You're the mouthpiece for demagoguery.
I read the material, and either you didn't or you're a pedophile. There's no grey zone there.
You did, huh?
Okay so give a specific citation from the material that you believe is problematic, and why.
I realize you're sealioning like the bullshit con-artist that you are, and I normally don't like to indulge you, but the source material makes it easy, so; Is it okay to masturbate?, What does semen taste like?, How do gay people have sex? Who you're attracted to + Who you have sex with + The first time you have sex + Your sexual preference
No adult should ever engage or entertain those questions with a minor.
Is it okay to masturbate?, What does semen taste like?, How do gay people have sex? Who you're attracted to + Who you have sex with + The first time you have sex + Your sexual preference
All of these are in the section dealing with recommendations for how to respond to students when THEY ask those questions. You realize that, right?
No adult should ever engage or entertain those questions with a minor.
*No* adult? Not even parents?
And why not, especially in a SEX ED class?
Do you think if you try to hide the topic of gay sex from students, that they will never find out about it?
You can't hide this stuff from kids. They are going to find out anyway. Who do you want teaching sex ed to kids, a teacher or Pornhub?
Jeff. I read the material. You have not. You find the first paragraph you think you can create a narrative about to defend it.
So much projection from you this morning.
So if you read the material, then what is your objection to the portion having to do with the taste of semen?
You do understand that this portion of the material was about preparing teachers on what to do if a student asks that question, right?
Shouldn't teachers be prepared to answer very obvious questions in class?
Discussion of sexual acts should not be taught. Biology should be taught. Not how to perform sex acts.
This is like the teachers advocating to teach children how good maturation feels and how to do it properly. It is literally a step in grooming.
Instead of teaching kids hows sexual biology works you advocate for how sexual performance is handled instead.
Youre supporting grooming.
So you don't think schools should tell kids, in sex ed class, about safe sex practices. Why? Do you want kids to get STD's and get pregnant? Because you know that a very large number of them are going to have sex anyway, right?
Jeff. How is telling students here are some secual positions you can try teaching them safe sex?
How is it not just use protection, use condoms, protect yourself from these STDs? Why do you think teaching a non adult different positions is a requirement of safe sex?
How the fuck are you not understanding this?
Why do you think teaching a non adult different positions is a requirement of safe sex?
I don't. Why did you think I did?
Lol. What? I have explained my arguments carefully and consistently.
You have not. You get caught up in lies after lies. And get mad when people don't play your sea lion games.
do you think schools should be a welcoming and inclusive space for all students, including LGBTQ students?
As a matter of fact, one of the biggest reasons why public education fails is due to it being all-inclusive. Charter, voucher, and private schools succeed because they get to exclude.
Charter schools operate on lotteries in almost every state that has them dummy.
That doesn't change what I said. Charters are still exclusionary, which creates scarcity, which in turn raises the value of the product.
How is a lottery exclusionary? Anyone can apply.
Of by exclusionary meaning not full replacement of all public schools, argue that.
Charter schools don't exclude students. They operate at capacity. Where states allow for new schools to be formed from demand they grow.
If states limit the number of charter schools it is the states creating scarcity, not the schools.
Think through your arguments.
Because everybody cannot win, definitionally.
Win-win situations happen all the time
Let's seeeeee ..... parents are the students' legal guardians, no? How do you expect parents to be guardians when the schools hide vital information like this?
Are you going to bring up in loco parentis to justify the teachers being guardians while at school? If so, how far does this extend -- how do you square this with schools calling parents in when kids have, say, bullied other kids, or been caught smoking in the bathroom, or disrupting classes? Why do you think those matters are so much more serious than transgender mutilation which are none of the parents' business?
Jeffy, you are a hypocrite.
For most issues, the parents should have the final say. Of course.
But for some issues, I think schools have to strike a balance between protecting the student's safety and fully informing the parents. There are some parents out there who don't always treat their kids right, and schools should not knowingly put kids in harm's way.
You just argued above schools should teach parents how to act. So you place parental behaviors from teachers above parents.
No, I didn't, and this is what you losing an argument looks like.
So you didn't say
The other is to try to get parents to accept their own kids for who they are.
So who is telling parents how to act here? Or did you not say that.
Watch jeff try to refrain is indirect object away from schools or government in a discussion only involving schools and how they handle the issue.
Rephrase, not refrain.
This is you Jesse taking a good-faith argument and trying to twist it into something sinister because you hate me. That is why I call you a troll.
Here is your selective quotation of me:
The other is to try to get parents to accept their own kids for who they are.
Oh my that sounds bad, like I'm totally in favor of schools telling parents how to raise their kids, right? Except, the very next sentence is:
Schools don't have much control over that (nor should they really).
Huh! You left that part out! Gee, I wonder why.
What I am referring to, Jesse, is that there are unfortunately some very bad parents out there who do some awful things to their kids. They beat and neglect and abuse their kids. And in THESE CASES, yes the schools SHOULD try to tell parents what to do, because the parents are fucking child abusers. And YOU DO TOO. In these cases, YOU also want schools to try to tell parents what to do. Right? Of course you do. But you are such a dishonest turd that you try to use my statement as a 'gotcha'.
This is exactly what it looks like when you are losing an argument.
No it is me quoting your exact words.
God damn jeff. How can you lie so freely. Who is teaching parents? God damn man. Take the L. Stop calling liars for reading your posts and denying what you've said.
How do you have no capability for embarassment?
And in THESE CASES, yes the schools SHOULD try to tell parents what to do, because the parents are fucking child abusers.
I also knew you would go back to this. Schools have a duty to report child abuse, not try to be the savior of the family.
So when you said I was lying about schools teaching parents you were lying as you agree they should be.
Now. Who makes the decision om what the bad parents are? You? The teacher? So again, you are in fact putting teachers above the parents as they determine which parents should be taught.
Glad you admitted I was right on your assertion.
Except he isn’t losing any argument. You repeating that doesn’t make it true, it just makes it a jingle.
"Parents should have the final say of course but ..."
Except schools get the final final say in how to strike that balance. Is there any clearer example of the "... but ..." statist excuse?
Fuck off, child slaver.
It is a sad reality, but there are actually horrible abusive parents out there.
He is a marxist.
He uses perverts like "tolerance" and "acceptance" to manipulate others' desire to not be, or seem, bigoted.
But what he means by those terms is that you cannot interfere with forcible programming and psychological destruction of young minds to make room for radical, collectivist, psychotic constructs, nor you deny him unsupervised access to your children.
I want schools to actually educate, and not indoctrinate.
You want schools to ban certain ideas from the classroom.
Who wants to do 'forcible programming' now?
Lol. Lies.
You want indoctrination.
He is one of the most thoroughly dishonest characters I've ever seen.
lol says the guy who gets his info from twitter and zerohedge
Do you have a cite? Daily Beast perhaps?
Ooh, maybe Vox!
You want to hide 'bad ideas' from the classroom, do you not?
No you retarded fuck. I want schools educating kids on objective facts and reality. Not whatever leftist indoctrination schemes you want them to teach instead.
Across the board test scores are down. Focus on actual education. Not leftist demagoguery.
But you want indoctrination centers.
I want schools educating kids on objective facts and reality
Except for the reality that sex is not the same as gender.
That’s a belief, not backed up by science.
There are two different concepts:
1. The reproductive biology of a person
2. The social conventions that a person is expected to follow based on reproductive biology
I call #1 "sex" and #2 "gender". If you'd like to come up with another term for it feel free.
A person who has a sex of male may be *expected* to follow the social conventions associated with a sex of male, but that person is not *required* to by biology. See: RuPaul, Caitlyn Jenner.
Have you ever put any thought into what education actually is?
Primary education is readin' writin' 'rithmetic. Anyone could teach those from 100 or 200 year old textbooks. Some people are better teachers than others, but you don't need a schoolhouse, you don't need principals, counselors, all the assorted staff required by federal and state guidelines. Neighbors can form teacher groups to teach these basics themselves if any of them feel especially useful at guiding children through fractions and long division.
History? Choose any textbook you want, there are literally thousands of suitable books. You can pick and choose several at once.
Literature? The classics are cheap e-books, literally free from Gutenberg or a buck or two from Amazon. I just checked; you can get a bundle of (all?) 15 Charles Dickens novels for $2. If children don't like them, you don't have to push them, or you can insist, your choice -- unlike government schools.
English grammar? If it really matters to you and you think reading alone won't encourage better grammar, I have no doubt there are thousands of boring grammar books out there, and if parents think they are a load of trash, they can skip the prescriptives about split infinitives and dangling prepositions up with which they will not put.
Music and art appreciation? Kids and parents like different stuff. Again, no doubt there are thousands of pushy books if that floats your boat, and the internet is full of all the examples you could want.
After that, you start to get into needing lab equipment for chemistry, physics, wood shop, auto shop, electrics and electronics, astronomy, you name it. Parents can teach cooking, cleaning, laundry, all the "home ec" stuff, by themselves, don't need a school for that.
Once you get into lab equipment, yes, you need to spend money sending kids to a real school. But nothing in primary education requires spending anything at all. It is all available on the internet, for free. Parents are beginning to figure this out, teachers have released the kraken and just realized it, but it is too late to unrelease.
You can pay for specialized history if you want, foreign languages, art and music themselves instead of just exposure to the various varieties. None of these have to be taught at the same time, or put off to they are older; they can be taught as young as parents want and kids can tolerate.
Nowhere in here is there any need for gender fluidentity. If kids are gay or want to cross dress, that is their choice and their parents' choice, just as are religion, foreign languages, vocational training vs higher education.
If you think puberty blockers and fender mutilation are proper for your kids, how did you used to feel about female genital mutilation? Used to be a real horror show, remember? I hope you remember -- it used to be a huge bipartisan talking point. Is it somehow now fashionable just because you've got a new name for it? Is it ok now because woke teachers push children into "wanting" it?
And Jeffie -- don't bring up testing and government standards. This is supposed to be a libertarian rag, not "how do we make government bigger" rag.
If some parents want to raise kids who never read anything but the bible or Koran or Kama Sutra -- fine with me. Most kids learn far more on their own than what their parents taught them, even before they become adults. It's none of my business or yours or the schools' or the government's.
Education is absolutely vital to everything that happens later in life. It is like nutrition or health. If developing kids don't eat well, they can potentially develop lifelong disabilities. And I am not just talking about obesity either. I'm talking about diseases like rickets. If kids do not get a solid educational foundation, then it really limits their future prospects. It's like the mental version of rickets. So I am absolutely going to advocate for educational standards, and high educational standards too. I am totally fine with having privatized education. I am NOT fine with kids just reading the Bible, or the Kama Sutra, or the Koran, all day and calling that 'education'. Without a proper education, there is no way to sustain any system of liberty. How can liberty be sustained from generation to generation if kids don't learn about it?
It doesn't have to take this huge increase in government especially if it comes at the expense of the entire public school establishment. Tell me, if I were to offer you a trade - all schools are private, all parents get a voucher for a reasonable tuition amount, and in exchange, all kids have to pass a standardized government test from time to time, would you take that deal?
A hypothetical you have no power to offer.
Tell me, if I were to offer you a faster than light round trip to Alpha Centauri, would you take me offer?
You're right, I'm not emperor of the universe. It is a hypothetical question. Would you take the deal or not?
Yes.
Now, your turn to answer a question - why are we teaching middle schoolers about anal sex?
I am open to the idea that middle school is too early for that concept.
I do think that there needs to be some type of sex ed in school at an age-appropriate level. I am fine if it is optional and parents want to opt their kids out of it.
Does this sound fair?
Good. So you’re on board with keeping all talk of sex from little children in school?
It depends on what you mean by "all talk of sex", because I have seen people here define that term so broadly as to include any mention of the word 'sex' in any context that is in no way pornographic or indecent.
I am fine with talking to little kids about concepts relating to gender identity and sexual orientation at an age-appropriate level. I.e., "sometimes two men can fall in love, just like a man and a woman can fall in love". No graphic details.
Obviously I am not fine with talking about graphic sexual details with little kids.
So you’re not in board. How expected.
Now you think that teaching about anal sex is 'basic sex ed'.
I think that if there is going to be a discussion about 'safe sex', it should include a discussion about safe sex in the context of anal sex as well. Do you agree?
Jesus fucking christ
Someone fetch the woodchipper!
Would it shock anyone here if Jeffy turned out to be a registered sex offender?
Yes, none of which has a goddamn thing to do with the subject at hand. Nice try you Pedo loving shitweasel.
The homosexual and gender dysphoric students, that have been given that alphabet soup of nonsense, should be treated like any other mentally ill person and directed to mental health care.
We don't give diet pills and gastric bypass surgery to anorexics.
The homosexual/gender dysphoric people should not have their delusions pandered to, either.
A bit of a deeper dive into the federal indictments for the cops involved with the Breonna Taylor case. Yes there is in instance of double jeopardy on one of the officers already declared not guilty in state courts by a jury.
https://legalinsurrection.com/2022/08/feds-indict-officers-in-breonna-taylor-death-including-brett-hankison-found-not-guilty-in-state-trial/
Well this is awkward for sarc who claimed the gop was anti liberty just a few days ago. From noted right wing nazi Hitler Bill Maher:
“So, I guess my question is, who’s got the freedom fight now? Because I could see the Republicans saying, well, we stand up for your right to have your guns, we don’t [support] COVID bullshit mandates, you have your freedom to be free. I certainly don’t always feel free in this state, I must say. And I have felt freer in Florida.”
Tick tock...
https://twitter.com/4th_System/status/1555693134641672194?t=QuQkpxQ9L17Gg3Nst2sMjw&s=19
Man tracks down the doctor that gave one of his family members the covid vaccine and they died after taking it…
[Video]
and assaults him with a boomerang. Way to go Austrailia
Some public/private balance needs be struck. After all, while the sidewalk may be "public," the owners of buildings which front the sidewalk are usually required to keep it free of snow, ice, debris, uneven surface, etc. all on pain of being sued if a passerby gets injured.
WTF???
https://twitter.com/Intrepid4Eva/status/1555836548985257986?t=LLKNj1bSUE1-vCazAREbRg&s=19
So interesting. Thank you for doing this, Jesse. As the parent of an FTM, it is so clear that there are many, many niches w/i the trans community - toddlers, ROGD young women, boys, middle-aged men. And until researchers acknowledge this, they’re spinning their wheels.
The one size fits all practice of transitioning anybody confused into the opposite sex with drugs and surgery is having many deleterious effects. The Swedish studies used initially to push these treatments isolated kids who believed were the opposite sex without other mental health issues. This was applied to kids with mental issues who were generally questioning their entire being. The latter group shows no improvement in acceptance or mental health. No long term to improvements on suicide rates. Which is why many of the countries that were at the forefront of gender identity issues are now reversing course in children.
https://www.commonsense.news/p/the-beginning-of-the-end-of-gender
The leading gender transition hospital in Britain was found to be transitioning kids immediately instead of checking on a child's mental health. So it was recently shut down.
In the last 2 decades the regret from taking these drugs to detransition is estimated to be 10 to 20% of all kids who transition. And it is believed this number is even higher as gender clinics do not fully track detransitioning. The regret numbers continue to climb.
https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1555656973772853248?t=RFmiynk8rxrVZ2fULAvNWw&s=19
Wow @EliErlick is sending drugs to children across the country without prescriptions, parental consent, or any legal authority whatsoever. This is a crime on several different levels.
[Link]
Not happening according to Jeff.
"it is so clear that there are many, many niches w/i the trans community - toddlers"
You caught me. I was lying when you I said no toddlers. We're going to **** them too.
https://twitter.com/DeanObeidallah/status/1555622104585879552?t=GIqgApSWvdqsEaAOuOMPQQ&s=19
More of GOP's brutality on display: "Texas GOP governor sends migrants to New York City."
[Link]
That certainly isn't fair to NYC when Boston, Philly, Chicago, St. Louis, New Orleans, Los Angeles, Portland, Frisco, Seattle and other sanctuary Blue Cities should be receiving their share.
Minneapolis could definitely use a half million or so based on the mayors rhetoric.
Well, the whole program is voluntary, and not even illegals want to come to Portland or Seattle.
I thought NY was a sanctuary city. Did that change?
https://twitter.com/KimIversenShow/status/1555937334654169089?t=x19P9uYQBch4pCsn5uMe7w&s=19
We don’t need an exemption, the entire mandate needs to end. Unvaccinated Americans can travel freely to Europe yet Unvaccinated Europeans like Novak Djokovic can’t travel here. Meanwhile, our 4x dosed President has covid. When will the lunacy end?
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LOL
https://twitter.com/TheAtlantic/status/1555572189482700802?t=ZgnbxfDVoDtW6Jk7c2q2rQ&s=19
Has the image of fatherhood in the “Taken” films fallen out of step with modern conceptions of masculinity? @AndrewAoyama explores what it takes to separate fatherhood from anger in this week's #TheAtlanticBooksBriefing:
[Link]
https://twitter.com/DrJBhattacharya/status/1555935009483005954?t=9HT5g5xRU6ogDaSzNSQuaQ&s=19
There is so much irony in @twitter placing a misleading "misleading" label on a lawyer who is suing the government for collaborating with Twitter to violate free speech rights. If this were Animal House, twitter would be rooting for the censorious dean.
[Link]
So, it's come to this.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/aug/05/michigan-library-book-bans-lgbtq-authors
US library defunded after refusing to censor LGBTQ authors: ‘We will not ban the books’
Residents of Jamestown, Michigan, voted this week to shut down town’s library rather than tolerate certain LGBTQ books
So *of course* the complaints started when a patron found a copy of Gender Queer in the library. (Why is it always this book?) Now, this is a *public library*, not a school library. The book was in the *adult section*, not the kids' section. The protestors wanted the book banned.
So the librarians tried to compromise by placing the book behind the counter where patrons would have to request it instead of it being available to all. But that wasn't good enough.
Oh, and other books were added to the 'controversial' list. Books that didn't have any depictions of sex in them at all. You'll never guess what the common theme of these books were though.
At the article there's an image of a flier that the conservative protestors distributed to try to get people to vote against the library. Here are a few of the grievances from the poster:
According to the flier, this library:
"has had library displays, such as LGBTQ Pride Month, in the library young adults section"
"had a director who promoted the LGBTQ ideology and has hired staff of the same mindset, which aggravates the situation"
"is an American Library Association and Lakeland Cooperative member. Lakeland is very progressive and heavily pressures libraries on whom to hire"
None of these grievances have anything to do with 'graphic sex talk with kids'. They think that simply *having a display* on Pride Month in the young adult section is a problem. And WTF is even the "LGBTQ ideology"?
This is not about protecting kids. This is about imposing conservative morals under the guise of 'protecting kids'.
Residents of Jamestown, Michigan, voted
I can see the problem right here. That damn democratic process.
It gets even better when you go the primary source:
Voters on Tuesday rejected the millage renewal by a 25-point margin — 62 percent to 37 percent
A decisive majority.
Sometimes the mob makes stupid choices.
Alternative proposal:
The community reflected it's values in it's votes.
Thats why he is a globalist and not a federalist. He hates people who think different than he does.
They pay for it. They get to control it.
They aren't preventing anyone from reading or buying the book. They are saying they don't want to pay for others to read it.
They are saying they don't want to pay for others to read it.
Right. So because they don't like certain books, they didn't want any of the patrons to read the books; and when they didn't get their way, they didn't want to have a library at all.
Oh I agree that they have the authority to do what they did. I just think they used their authority wrongfully. Instead of looking at the big picture, i.e., having a community center where all people could go and read books, use the computers, etc., they would rather take the entire thing away if it meant having a few books there that they didn't like. It's not very civic-minded of them.
Instead of looking at the big picture
Thus spake the "individualist".
That is right. An individualist who is not a misanthropic asshole.
Individualism is not the same as narcissism.
Individualism in my mind means that the primary locus of decision-making should rest with the individual. It does not mean that every decision that every individual makes is a wise and good decision. Only that the individual is the one best suited, in most cases, to make that decision.
Only that the individual is the one best suited, in most cases, to make that decision.
Except for when a collection of individuals vote against "civic-mindedness", as though individualists should even care about such concepts.
Never change.
Except for when a collection of individuals vote against "civic-mindedness", as though individualists should even care about such concepts.
Why shouldn't they?
Again individualism is not the same as narcissism.
It is just as much individualism to say "I will spend my time watching Netflix because I am selfish" as it is to say "I will spend my time cleaning up the public park because I am civic-minded". In both cases it's the individual who decides what to do.
Why shouldn't they?
Among other reasons, it isn't their business. Do you live in the town where the library was defunded? If not, why should you care?
Forget it, chemjeff. Don't you know that libertarianism is all about being self-centered. Forget about any libertarian traditions of community, civil society, philanthropy, mutual aid or any of that bullshit.
That’s right Mike. Being a libertarian is all about collectivism.
When will you come to the realization that the entire radical theory movement is the ones making stupid choices?
Seems like they voted for their interests rather than a pederastic sex cult's.
Pedo Jeffy doesn’t think that’s very libertarian!
So you're only for democracy when the mob wants to burn *your* enemies.
He hates democracy when his views aren't upheld. Loves it when they are. He is a statist.
An authoritarian statist.
If the book itself is aimed at the 12-15 age demographic (which I think it's around that) and contains pornographic imagery, would you accept that it's inappropriate for its intended age group? I'm aware the library put it in the "adult" section, supposedly, but that doesn't fix the inherent issues with a book that may be aimed at the wrong audience.
Beyond that, there's also the fact that maybe people are just tired of being taxed to fund public libraries, especially if those public libraries are digging their toes in ideologically against the community. People actually have a vote, in this case, on what they want to fund with their tax dollars, and they were fine with paying for a fire department and more roads, but not a public library at the center of a controversy. Good for them, maybe even a libertarian moment.
If the book itself is aimed at the 12-15 age demographic (which I think it's around that) and contains pornographic imagery, would you accept that it's inappropriate for its intended age group?
Yes, it is inappropriate for that age group. The recommended age for the book is 15 years.
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/gender-queer-maia-kobabe/1129752894
I'm aware the library put it in the "adult" section, supposedly, but that doesn't fix the inherent issues with a book that may be aimed at the wrong audience.
Read the article - the library tried to compromise and put the book behind the counter where it could only be accessed on request, but that wasn't good enough. The protestors wanted it banned completely.
Beyond that, there's also the fact that maybe people are just tired of being taxed to fund public libraries,
Except that this has never been an issue until now. These conservative protestors are presumbly not Rothbardian anarchists, they are fine with public services in general, and a library is as uncontroversial of a public service as one can think of, right up there with public roads.
Uncontroversial until it stocks books the paying public doesn't want to pay for.
Why don't you buy a few copies for them?
He can just donate the sticky paged versions he already has.
Not to mention that public libraries are heavily used by homeschoolers, and homeschooling is popular with conservative Christians. Getting rid of the local library is cutting off their nose to spite their face.
Well, it sounds like Senator Sinema struck some sort of deal on the democrats scaled-down version of Build Back Better, so it looks like this big of shit is probably getting rammed down our threats. A smaller bag of shit is still a bag of shit nonetheless.
So get ready for even more and even bigger price increases on all kinds of stuff you enjoy to come your way, even more so than already have recently thanks to these horrible left-wing policies.
Yep. I love how they blame inflation on people having money. You being broke is FOR YOUR OWN GOOD, you see!
https://simulationcommander.substack.com/p/did-the-ministry-of-truth-name-the
the Covid pandemic by allowing them to create outdoor dining structures along the respective city streets and sidewalks where they operate, constitutes an "illegal encroachment upon [the city's] public sidewalks, streets[,] and roadways on the no longer viable ground of a 'public health emergency.'"
What happens when a nominally libertarian outcome emerges from a government which skirted due process rules and made arbitrary decisions not based in law?
Yep. If they want to make it permanent, then move to legislate it. Or whatever you call that locally in NYC. Have the council define a process for outdoor dining and allow it to be argued over.
Though, I'm kind of guessing the final result of things like this is just shutting down streets and making them walking paths.
Or, even less likely, privatize the sidewalk.
Or rent them out. Or whatever. This is basically a continuation of my above thought about coming to some agreement that approaches the pretty obvious tension between taking up street and walking spaces with businesses. I'd say, the more simple and general the rules the better, but usage of public spaces in this way is at least a reasonable place for government to be having a say.
Close down every other street and leave it for walking and dining.
"Yep. If they want to make it permanent, then move to legislate it..."
In SF, the mayor authorized them and now she's considering doing so permanently; she's under the impression she was coronated.
No mention of how private businesses should pay for the exclusive use of public property (streets, sidewalks)?
(Perhaps I missed it while skimming a predictably polemical presentation.)
We almost never agree, but that is a good question. Also should someone be injured while dining on a public sidewalk who would be libel? Would the restaurant's insurance cover it?
Have to admit, it's the first time he's ever posted content worth reading.
Yes, they should and further, they should be liable for the loss of business to other retail outlets whose customers cannot park within comfortable distance and have to dodge a constant flow of servers.
Why restaurants alone got this sort of relief is a mystery.
My city did something similar with Nordstrom back in the 90’s. There were a few controversies related to it at the time. For whatever reason, public sidewalk cafe seating went away after a few years.
What if a food truck wants to park right next to the sidewalk/curb dining platform? Reason loves food trucks.
And what if the food truck serves a deep dish bread/sauce/meat entree and calls it "pizza"?
Let's see. Each and every diner pays sales tax on their meal. That's on top of the taxes they pay on their income and property, which are the same for diners and walkers.
https://twitter.com/ComicDaveSmith/status/1556015192768749574?t=oLxAkGmr5bdagj96oPZykA&s=19
With crime rising, police doing nothing, and progressive prosecutors legalizing property crimes, these type of incidents are inevitable, and frankly, necessary.
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https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1555610270256562176?t=tic4es5Ur6AMJinVBbvxPw&s=19
A robber in black bloc was stabbed & subdued by an Asian-American shop keeper wearing flip flops in Las Vegas this week. The robber’s accomplice leaves his friend behind. Police are investigating the robbery & stabbing.
[Video
I mean, he did stab that asshole in the back. Kind of a dick move.
There is a longer video that is even worse for the robbers. The guy even tells them to leave with the money they stole, then they jump the counter.
It's like with Trayvon Martin. If the situation were reversed and the clerk were shot in cold blood, like what happens every fucking day, you'd never hear about it. It's only when people defend themselves that the mob hates it
Those Asian shop owners don’t fuck around. Too bad so sad for the thug robbers. Guess they licked the wrong place to rob.
If he doesn’t get a very sympathetic jury, he’s going to prison.
Did this guy own the shop or did he just work there?
Owned it, I believe.
And if Reason wants to write an article on jury nullification, this is a good case.
I don't care if he cut off the guy's head. Once you attempt violent robbery you forfeit all rights.
I sure wouldn't vote to convict him. But the lawyers do their best to weed out people who won't follow instructions when selecting the jury.
Imagine living in NYC and complaining about rats, garbage on the streets, and blocked sidewalks - all normal parts of NYC life.
But Lonnekin, they not normal parts of city life. At least not south and west of Baltimore. San Francisco being the notable exception, taking, as it does, governing cues from East Coast blue cities.
https://twitter.com/JacquiHeinrich/status/1555700945928929280?t=Vb_rSTngEYvI5g0WnzTgWA&s=19
Rep Kevin Brady: Manchin/Schumer reconciliation bill “adds $80 billion to the Internal Revenue Service - nearly six times the agency’s current annual budget – to supercharge the IRS and unleash 87,000 new IRS enforcement agents on taxpayers, including the middle class.”
[Link]
Or as Thomas Jefferson would say it, "He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance."
That sounds insurrectiony. You don't fly a Betsy Ross flag, do you?
You wouldn't want any tourists to confuse it with Paris, would you?
Don't worry, they won't.
Thanks for your beyond belief blogs stuff. looking for a Accountant Cambridgeshire
Dinning outdoors? How horrific! What will they think of next, having picnics? MY GOD HELP US! (sarc)
I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with the sheds being used for quicky sex. Not In My Back alleY, right? But then 'reason' thinks unrestrained sex work is just fine, even if it does scare the horses (which are next on the LGBTQ-whatever menu, by the way. You think drag queens shouldn't be grooming children? Wait until it's pantomime drag horses.)
https://nypost.com/2022/08/06/couples-put-on-x-rated-shows-in-nycs-dining-sheds/