Viktor Orbán Flatters Republicans With the Lie That Progressive Liberals and Communists Are 'the Same'
The Hungarian prime minister also makes the historically illiterate claim that Christians can't be racist.

In his triumphant speech Thursday at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in Dallas, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán played one of the oldest—and most morally grotesque—rhetorical cards in the central European diplomatic playbook: comparing the domestic political opponents of his audience with the totalitarian murderers who once subjugated his homeland.
"The Hungarians defeated communism, which was forced on us by Soviet troops and arms. It took a while. We began our fight in 1956 and won in 1990, but we did it," Europe's longest-serving prime minister said. "But communists are tough to beat. They rose from their ashes, came together with the liberals, and come back all around the world stronger than ever. If somebody has doubts whether progressive liberals and communists are the same, just ask us Hungarians. We fought them both, and I can tell you they are the same."
The claim that communists have come back "stronger than ever" would surely be news to the three dozen or so modern-day countries whose populations in 1988 were still under the iron boot. Only in China, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba have communist parties retained their monopoly on power. One could perhaps make the argument that current and former communists, after allowing for quasi-capitalistic economic activity, now have more internal strength and financial resources in China and post-Soviet Russia than they did in 1990, but that's not an argument that Orbán, the best friend of both Moscow and Beijing within the European Union and NATO, is eager to make.
The conflation of contemporary Western lefties with former East bloc totalitarians, a favorite dinner-party trick of such perennially overrated post-communist politicians as former Czech President Václav Klaus, serves the dual purpose of flattering American conservatives that their parochial political concerns (about, say, gay marriage) are imbued with internationally heroic heft, while diverting attention away from the less seemly (and less traditionally conservative) record of the speaker.
Addressing a CPAC audience, Orbán made sure to shout out the conference's patron saint: "We know what we have Ronald Reagan to thank for." But that's a considerably different song than he was singing two weeks ago in front of an audience of ethnic Hungarians in the Transylvania region of neighboring Romania.
There, in a speech that generated controversy for other reasons, the Hungarian actually compared Reagan to communists: "Historically, the Americans have had the ability to pick out what they identify as an evil empire and to call on the world to stand on the right side of history—a phrase which bothers us a little, as this is what the communists always said."
It is Orbán's flirtations with regional instability that seem the oddest fit with American conservatives. The prime minister, who has drawn rebukes this year from the governments of several bordering countries for expressing unrequited dissatisfaction with the post-World War I map-drawing Treaty of Trianon, launched his CPAC remarks by saying, "We are a nation of 15 million in the heart of Europe with a unique language."
The main problem with that sentence is that Hungary has only 10 million inhabitants. Trianon-lamenting nationalists, however, have been using the 15-million formulation for decades to agitate for restoring some of the lost Greater Hungary.
Such language was greeted with understandable regional alarm after the end of the Cold War, prompting NATO to insist on the permanent settlement of border disputes as a precondition for the first formerly communist entrants to join. Orbán and his allies have been increasingly brazen since the Russian invasion of Ukraine, which borders Hungary and houses a restive Hungarian minority allowed to vote in Hungarian elections.
In his Transylvania speech, Orbán thundered that "the motherland must stand together, and Transylvania and the other areas in the Carpathian Basin inhabited by Hungarians must stand together," and that "the world owes us something—and that we want to, and will, call in that debt. This is our strongest ambition."
The Hungarian's calls, repeated in Texas on Thursday, for the Ukrainian war to end via a settlement negotiated directly between Russia and the U.S. (preferably with a Republican president after 2024) are seen by Kyiv as a possible stalking horse for a land grab.
"The way the official Hungarian leadership is treating Ukraine lately is worse than even that of some of the Russian satellite states from the former Soviet Union," Ukrainian Deputy Prime Minister Irina Vereshchuk complained on Facebook in March. "Why? Is that because they want Russian gas with a discount? Or maybe that is because they silently dream of our Transcarpathia?"
Not helping to calm inflamed regional nerves was Orbán's bizarre and historically illiterate claims Thursday that "a Christian politician cannot be racist," that "the most evil things in modern history were carried out by people who hated Christianity," and that "the horrors of Nazism and communism happened because some Western states in continental Europe abandoned their Christian values, and today's progressives are planning to do the same."
It's not just Americans who should know damn well that the desultory ranks of openly racist politicians in our lifetimes have included Christians. Hungary, during the tail end of World War II, was ruled by the notorious Jew-murdering Arrow Cross Party, founded by the Catholic Ferenc Szálasi, who served a dual role during that reign of terror as prime minister and minister of religion and education.
The whole of Central Europe during those hellish years was a hotbed of clerico-fascism. This history is very well known to Viktor Orbán, given how many times his government has been accused (including by one of his longtime advisers last month) of playing footsie with antisemitic tropes and rehabilitating wartime Hungarian leaders.
Many a political audience, no doubt, loves to hear that they are not bigoted, that anyone accusing them of such must come from (in Orbán's cloyingly Trumpist formulation) "the industrial fake news corporation," that their cause is holy and just, that their opponents are actual enemies and on the wrong side of a civilizational war. Such is the nature of the systematic organization of hatreds.
Unfortunately for the rest of us and the rest of the world, hatreds are not always containable within the box of peaceful political competition, particularly at a time of a sovereignty-challenging war in Europe. Viktor Orbán no doubt won over some American conservative sympathy for whatever future project he has in mind for 15 million ethnic Hungarians. We shall see how seriously the next Republican president takes the current European map.
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Who's cocktail party is Matt Welch trying to get invited to with this article?
Who would ever invite Welch to a party or want to go to one that had invited him?
Someone who doesn't hate people over politics.
Welch is a giant bore and a half wit. His politics have nothing to do with that.
If you could tell the difference between libertarian and leftist I might believe you.
You are not a leftist sarcasmic. You just always sympathize and excuse their position out of coincidence or something.
Sure sweetheart. Whatever gets you through the night.
Thank you for proving my point.
I know, reality has a leftward bias. It is not your fault.
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The faux-Libertatian Reason may actually believe that its clandestine love, "democratic socialism," isn't an oxymoron. Yeah, just like the 1920s Jews of Central Europe thought, too.
“played one of the oldest—and most morally grotesque—rhetorical cards “
Do you mean propaganda? Manipulating peoples minds and actions by making an issue emotional, so the facts don’t matter, then replacing facts with misinformation while people are distracted, so they are coerced to act on misinformation.
You are a Nazi.
You are a liberal.
You are a socialist.
You are a capitalist.
You are a conservative.
These don’t further the conversation. They don’t promote dialogue to understand issues and resolve conflict.
They are triggers to stop dialogue. To initiate bigotry with the confidence of close mindedness. The symptoms of brainwashing from propaganda.
I like to feed the bigoted trolls what they can’t / won’t refute and laugh when they choke.
Misek, YOU are a bigot. You are a blatant anti semite. You have no moral high ground, as you are a literal nazi. That makes you one of the bad guys.
I have never advocated national socialism and have challenged anyone to prove otherwise. All trolls choke.
I have provided evidence that refutes the holocaust. None have refuted it. All choke when fed the challenge. This is a crime punishable with imprisonment in every nation where it allegedly occurred. Many who ostensibly advocate free speech don’t bat an eye when forced to recognize this coercive censorship.
The bigoted trolls simply bleat “naaazi” like brainwashed sheeple have been programmed to.
It’s hard to imagine a civilization of bigots, because it can’t exist. Civilization requires considering counter arguments. If you aren’t part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.
When you can refute what you deny and prove what you claim you won’t be what’s wrong with society. Until then, you are.
You’re choking. Hahaha
I think he proved HIS point. You hate conservatives. Fr more than you love libertarianism. This forces you to shill for democrats frequently.
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Whenever the chips are down and everyone is attacking the Democrats for doing something deranged and horrific, sarcasmic will bravely point out "both sides".
He's impartial like that.
When Republicans do something wrong, it is all about how horrible Republicans are. When Democrats do something wrong it is "pox on both houses baby".
Meanwhile:
When Democrats do something wrong, it is all about how horrible Democrats are.
When Republicans do something wrong, it is
"pox on both houses baby"whataboutism after whataboutism about how Democrats are still horrible.Ok, groomer
You’re just mad because there’s pushback against your pedophile agenda here.
Notice that's not what actually happens, but jeffey doesn't really care about reality. He posts the best defense of Democrats he can come up with and whether it is true just isn't a relevant point.
Reality and Jeff aren't on speaking terms.
Lying Jeffy is hammered more consistently than I would have hoped when I started calling him Lying Jeffy years ago. Libertarianism doesn’t need charlatans like Lying Jeffy.
Keep the ridicule up!
He straight up told us yesterday the left is more libertarian than the right even after 3 years of covid. But he isn't a leftist.
I take a few days off and miss a gem like that?
Roundup thread. One sec.
sarcasmic
August.4.2022 at 11:46 am
Flag Comment Mute User
It used to be that conservatives opposed personal liberty while supporting, or at least giving lip service to, economic liberty.
Because of that there was an alliance between conservatives and libertarians over economic issues. But the right has abandoned support for economic liberty while maintaining hostility towards personal liberty. That means libertarians and the conservative right have gun rights and lower taxes in common, but that's about it.
Meanwhile the left maintains their hostility towards economic liberty while supporting, or giving lip service to, personal liberty.
That means that libertarians now have more in common with the left than with the right. Not because libertarians have drifted left. Rather its because the conservative right has abandoned support for liberty in general.
I mean just ignore covid, ESG, DEI, CRT, etc.
Hahahahahaha, thanks for that. Goddamn man, just wow.
The left is only more libertarian (traditionally) on social issues.
But lately they are delving into social engineering and interference in personal life and associations.
This article is disturbing in its effort to demonize Orban, not so much by criticizing his speech at CPAC, but more for his domestic policy decisions and actions.
If you haven't a kind word for anyone, come and sit by Matt.
He isn't that bad. Actually I always got the impression he was some lucky kid's cool uncle. He just seems like that kind of guy.
None of which should be construed as an endorsement of his politics.
What a hypocrite Viktor is ! Read about the Huns forced Magyarization on neighbors as the Slovaks. It is why many fled the persecution to come to this country. Are present day Amerikans that naive. It's like the Orange County CA modern Okies who don't realize their grand parents were also dumb migrants !o!
Genetically modern Hungarians are the exact same people who lived there before the Magyars came. There was no colonization, the language shift was elite mediated.
People who think it is scary that Orbán was invited to be a speaker at CPAC. Which is most people.
Most people are paranoid nuts maybe or leftist apologists. I wouldn't want to go to a party with those people either.
I too remember your outrage over people like Donna Hylton being invited to speak at the DNC.
Or the Democratic left's straight up love affair with Chavez in the 00s. Where you rather live, Hungary or Venezuela. But Orban speaking at CPAC is terrifying and the entire Democratic Party giving Chavez a tongue bath for ten years is totally not a problem.
They'll all wear Che shirts, who was an actual racist mass murderer, but talking to a guy who's actually neither is beyond the pale.
ML must be at an honor killing or stoning tonight. He is usually here to defend Donnie Boy 24/7.
What are you babbling about, pedophile?
You’re usually here to link child pornography.
"...Donnie Boy..."
turd's best effort at 'clever' repartee'.
Or Obama commuting the sentence of a FALN domestic terrorist who was involved in over 100 bombings in the 1970s.
Imagine Trump commuting Eric Rudolph, and you'll get an idea of how anti-American that act was.
I thought it was Clinton. Did Obama do it too?
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/01/oscar-lopez-commutation-barack-obama-214685/
Obama commuted his sentence because he admired him.
Clinton pardoned the Weather Underground domestic terrorist that participated in the bombing of the "people's house" in 1983.
Clinton pardoned Puerto Rican terrorists in order to help Hillary in her race for Senator in New York. What does that say about Democrat voters in NY that pardoning terrorists wins you their votes?
You have to go back to Lyndon Johnson to find a Democrat president who did not pardon or commute the sentences of Puerto Rican terrorists. How many Democrats know that? And hows many would care if they did?
"Which is most people."
I would venture to guess that the average person in the US didn't even know who Orban was until recently. At least, until all sorts of news agencies started yipping about him like a dog that was sprayed with a hose.
He got on the media's shitlist when he refused to take in Syrian refugees. If it's one thing the world government fetishists despise, it's an unapologetic nationalist who doesn't hate his country.
Yeah, not so much.
Progressives, Marxist Socialists and Communists ARE much the same.
Communists think complete socialist totalitarian state control is needed until they have molded the "Communist Man". Of course that never happens so Socialism stays forever. Oh and that revolution is required to achieve Socialism.
Marxist Socialist think that socialist totalitarian state control is needed. Oh and that revolution is required to achieve Socialism.
Progressives think that socialist totalitarian state control is needed and it can be achieved my incremental migration of society.
Notice the common theme? They all think that socialist totalitarian state control is needed.
Essentially, we have two kinds of leftists in the US now, Marxists and Progressives, with a spectrum between them.
Apparently, Matt Welsh is on the spectrum.
Oh he’s on the spectrum alright.
Marxists want their people in government (leftist Democrats and their fellow travelers) to control it, Progressives want rich elites and academic elites (World Economic Forum) to control it . But yes, they are very similar so I'll accept Orban saying "same".
There are at least two more kinds: union supporters, techno-liberals (think Silicon Valley capitalism/corporatism).
There are also pockets of old-fashioned mid-West progressivism in places like Iowa and Kansas, environmental extremists, feminists. Come to think of it, way more than two kinds of leftists.
And more than two kinds of conservatives, including many at CPAC who think having more than one book problematic, and some who have difficulty counting higher than two.
The future looks bright for Fox TV.
Sacrifice yourself to a volcano, dimwit.
they dont use volcanos anymore - they use endless 'vaccine' boosters
And more than two kinds of conservatives, including many at CPAC who think having more than one book problematic, and some who have difficulty counting higher than two.
If you'd read anything more complex than the adventures of teenage wizards, this slam might actually have hit.
Just look at the WEF and their plans to Greenify all of our agriculture. They are no different really than Mao or Stalin
Remember when Stacey Abrams was introduced as the 'legitimate' governor of Georgia at the DNC?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
But, Election Denial is INsuRecTion!
For some people. Depends.
That’s different! - Mike
That's where the Depends come in.
At least for Joe Biden.
Speech is scary!
‘Most people’ barely know who Orban is.
Salon, Slate or mabye WAPO were he can munch cheese and crackers with Max Boot and Jennifer Rubin (hell Cathy Young might show up now that her backside isn't hurting as much after Scott Horton kicked her ass)..and nod in agreement as they explain that the Palestinians are the problem not the Israeli govt..and if only American Catholics would just shut their mouth on abortion.
Natty dresser wasp old Matt I would guess...I had an old friend who became a journalist (Ivy Leaguer)..runs a Gannett paper now and it is all "white supremacy" this and "george floyd" that....liberals like Welch have no idea what ethnic Italian or Irish Americans have to deal with today from govt and corporate woke world...constant discrimination, constantly being told of our "original sin"....this is a war for liberty Matt..get on the right side. Marxism of any flavor has no place in America.
You wouldn't be invited to Victor Orbán's, so why the shilljob?
He lives in an alternative universe. Perhaps he is waiting for an invitation from himself.
"Viktor Orbán Flatters Republicans With the Lie That Progressive Liberals and Communists Are 'the Same'"
He comments on Reason? What's his handle?
What's the difference, sarcasmic?
No, sarcasmic is clearly Matt Welch.
He’s dumb enough.
Does Welch have a severe alcohol problem?
The Hungarians defeated communism, which was forced on us by Soviet troops and arms. It took a while. We began our fight in 1956 and won in 1990, but we did it," Europe's longest-serving prime minister said. "But communists are tough to beat. They rose from their ashes, came together with the liberals, and come back all around the world stronger than ever. If somebody has doubts whether progressive liberals and communists are the same, just ask us Hungarians. We fought them both, and I can tell you they are the same."
That is exactly true. The far left hasn't destroyed the right. It has destroyed the center left. Welch, being an establishment center leftist of the worst ilk, can't admit that. He can't admit that through decades of living by the mantra "no enemies to the left", the center left has enabled and apologized for the far left for so long that it has now consumed them and there is only the far left.
Orban speaks the truth. Welch being a paid professional liar can't stand that.
Wow, aren't you full of shit.
The far left can't win an election in this country outside Vermont. They trot Bernie Sanders out each year and he gets shelllacked by a Clinton or Obama/Biden centrist who campaigns AGAINST far left issues like single payer and the Green New Deal (which Pelosi also condemned). I bet you are the type dumbass who calls Pelosi a communist.
The only two Presidents in my lifetime who cared about the debt/deficit were Clinton and Obama who both cut deficits by large numbers only to have fucking Big Gov Republicans open spending spigots wide open.
You really are a dumbass.
LMAO.... Obama cut deficits....
So that TRIPLING of the deficit never happened when he took office??
I know you are a moron so I will quote a libertarian from George Mason University:
President Obama inherited a deficit of $1.4 trillion when he took office at the end of the Great Recession. The first chart shows that deficits began to shrink as the economy slowly recovered. As of 2016 the shortfall has started growing again. The red ink increased $152 billion from last year, for a total projected deficit of $590 billion.
https://www.mercatus.org/publications/government-spending/debt-and-deficit-under-obama-administration
Moron.
You're like Sevo except even more often wrong.
His Budget Control Act of 2011 was the big deficit shrinker.
They shrank because the pay ins from TARP started in 2010 while the payouts were 2009. Reid and Pelosi set the budget to the level of the 2009 budget including payouts as part of baseline budgets. The deficit shrank as loan repayments were made. TARP was slightly profitable.
This has been explained to your feeble brain multiple times.
Bullshit.
TARP was fully repaid by 2013 yet the deficit kept shrinking after that.
In 2015 the deficit was only $438 billion.
Then Donnie blew it up. THEN later COVID blew it up more.
It helps when the Fed leaves rates at 0% so the trillion in debt principal which comes up can be rolled over without increasing annual interest payments, lowering borrowing needs..an old game govt plays.
Neither party has cared about annual deficits or the debt since Ike...I will give you that.
Yeah, low rates help a lot.
I agree that neither party cares about debt.
But Obama did. Thus he went after the Grand Bargain. Simpson-Bowles deficit reduction which we needed. TOM COBURN supported him. Mr Conservative.
But idealogues in both parties killed it.
"But Obama did" -- TRILLION ADDED TO THE DEBT = $8.6T.....
Oh yeah; Obama cared so much HE F'EN DOUBLED THE DEBT...
UR so polluted by propaganda.
The only thing that stopped his wild spending (as it is with ALL spend, spend, spend Democrats) was Republicans taking control of congress....
It's baffling you can see this in every single chart ever running budget numbers... FDR, Obama, Biden all with Democrat congress and spending like nobodies business.
Heck... One doesn't even need a chart. All it takes is not polluting one's self is partisan excuses... EVERY bill Democrats pitch is spend, spend, spend MORE, MORE, MORE.
Well they certainly can’t ‘win’. Not legitimately. But they can and have installed an illegitimate regime was is extreme far left.
SPB2, you are full of shit. Quit gas lighting us. Bill and Hillary tried to take have the government take over health care system in his 1st year in office. They would have punished us for making a private service-for-fee transaction with our doctor. Obama is for a single payer govt system. Biden doesn't know where he is, but his staff adopted the policy positions of Bernie Sanders and wrote a policy document with Bernie's staff in order to get his support in 2020.
Speaking of Bernie, he had Hillary beat in 2016 for the Democrat nomination, but the rules were set against him, which is how she won. He actually would have had a chance in 2016; that commie would have received massive support from the Democrat party.
You credit Clinton for the deficit reduction, but you don't mention that the Republicans took control of the House in 1995 and did the hard work, dragging him along.
The Left slams Reagan for an average of 220 billion dollar deficit per year, but then brags about Obama getting the deficit down to "only" 450 billion after several years (while the debt went up several trillion).
Finally, most Dems are for the Green New Deal. They want to spend trillions on it. And trillions on other stuff as well.
Welch is Patient Zero for ODS
Of course, here's a report that Chile is flirting with, if not Communism, at least deep Socialism. It's from some outfit called Reason. Probably Right-wing nuts.
https://reason.com/2022/08/03/chiles-student-protester-generation-plays-with-constitutional-chaos/
Then there is Venezuela. But Welch assures us there is no such thing as a communist anymore. That is just a rightwing meme or something.
Where did Welch ever say anything that stupid?
Here
The claim that communists have come back "stronger than ever" would surely be news to the three dozen or so modern-day countries whose populations in 1988 were still under the iron boot. Only in China, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba have communist parties retained their monopoly on power. One could perhaps make the argument that current and former communists, after allowing for quasi-capitalistic economic activity, now have more internal strength and financial resources in China and post-Soviet Russia than they did in 1990, but that's not an argument that Orbán, the best friend of both Moscow and Beijing within the European Union and NATO, is eager to make.
Read the article.
But Welch assures us there is no such thing as a communist anymore
He said communism is still extant, you moron.
You're just as stupid as Sevo except wordier.
It’s weird how in former communist countries they still
know a communist when they see him.
Too bad for you.
Even worse if they can spot pedophiles.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/refugees-from-socialism-warn-americans-dont-let-it-happen-here
The refugees from those countries have been speaking out for a while.
"...You're just as stupid as Sevo except wordier..."
The asshole turd wishes he was half as intelligent.
Communism always works out as socialism in practice. The Communists never even get close to the transition to communism.
"Viktor Orbán Flatters Republicans With the Lie That Progressive Liberals and Communists Are 'the Same'"
Reason Editors, hardest hit.
I mean it isnt like Critical Theories are the primary praxis of the left these days.
Yeah, they are trying to forcefit something that is not quite true.
This is not an honest article.
comparing the domestic political opponents of his audience with the totalitarian murderers who once subjugated his homeland.
Peter Hitchens is on line 2, and would like to provide Mr. Welch with a bucket of cold water.
Is he talking about Orange Hitler?
Boy you got awfully defensive about the C word for someone who's got nothing to be ashamed of.
Matt and most of Reason editors = far left progressives. So, of course, this hits square between their eyes.
I’m guessing at least some of them are just spineless and are going along to get along.
The right smearing anyone left of center, or anyone not aligned to the hard right, as a Marxist or communist is as bad as the left smearing anyone who leans right as an authoritarian racist. Keep it up, and those words won't mean anything anymore; they will lose their shock value, and the charge won't carry any weight. The center-left exists just as the center-right exists. They aren't all far-left "communists" and corrupted "RINOs."
It's not.
You faggot leftists literally talk about the marxist theories you're implementing.
the Trumptardy right-wingers who incongruously self-label as libertarians and amuse us so in Reason's comments section with their Orwellian 15-Minute-Hates KNOW they're walking violations of everything they profess to believe (as well as being over-politicized creeps)... explaining it to them will produce no results - they don't care..
fuck 'em
"I could totally explain how I'm right, but I'm not because... shut up!"
Ewald Von Kleist
August.6.2022 at 12:18 pm
TDS-addled shit piles - fuck 'em with Tony's dick.
We'll just ignore the Marxist American academics that denied the cambodian genocide because we're all friends here.
And the members of the city council in both Portland and Seattle, both pretty big cities last I looked, who openly claim to be revolutionary Marxists.
And Marxist academics denied the Soviet genocide and claimed the US not North Korea was the aggressor in the Korean War.
Don't forget that small, unimportant organization called BLM who's founders openly claimed to be "trained Marxists."
BLM is about as insignificant as a group could be.
If they are a group. It might be that one idiot female grifter of theirs and a few hundred looters who drafted on the riot chaos.
2 billion in damages. 2 dozen dead. An entire political party submitting to them the last few years.
Insignificant.
Looters. Opportunists.
Same shit happened at Katrina in New Orleans.
Police brutality is real. And important.
BLM is not important.
Look at the hicklib pedophile trying to deflect from his allies.
I'm insulting BLM, you moron.
Looters. Led by a grifter. Opportunists. Unimportant.
Important enough that your boss Soros handed them fat wads of cash.
Six months of riots, billions in damage, and 40-50 dead.
Unimportant.
It's funny that the same people who claim this think a three hour riot is the most important thing to happen in the last century or so.
Well it is known white domestic terrorists, usually showing up at school board meetings, are the most significant threat to American democracy comrade.
Insignificant enough to raise $90 million dollars.
The founder of BLM are openly Marxist and say the organization is there to bring about Marxism.
Those communists were killing people, ours don't. Totally different.
Who's "ours?"
Before you claim "ours don't", check out the deaths that occurred during the Antifa occupation of Portland. They haven't come within ten millionth of the deaths caused by Communists in the USSR and China, but that's because Antifa and BLM don't have a monopoly of force. For instance, Kyle Rittenhouse is alive and two of the leftist thugs that attacked him are dead because Rittenhouse had not only the right to defend himself, but the right to carry a tool to do so.
I guess that means libertarians are communists, right?
If leftists are communists, and libertarians are constantly being accused of being leftists, then by implication libertarians are communists! Q E fucking D
I guess that means libertarians are communists, right?
Well, yes, there IS such a thing as libertarian Marxism and that's been discussed ad-nauseum.
People discuss jumbo shrimp and military intelligence as well.
If you understand Marx, you understand libertarian Marxism. They are not mutually exclusive on paper.
Sarc doesn’t actually understand much.
It doesn’t help that by his own admission. he’s usually drunk. Plus all the accumulated brain damage from decades of severe alcohol abuse.
The worst part about this thread is that sarc's point is better than your guys for libertarianism, you are just letting your dislike get the better of you.
Explain. Difficulty. Actually facts and not narratives.
His point that libertarians are communists? Or him being disingenuous about what people mean when they call lefties lefties? (Hint: we’re saying they’re NOT libertarian by calling them lefties)
Didn't that nitwit Will Wilkerson start an entire thinktank devoted to what amounts to libertarian Marxism? I believe he called it fusion or some such.
I have no idea what Wilkenson...Wilerson(?) discussed. Based on your description, sounded like he was suggesting Libertarianism Plus.
It is Wilkerson. My mistake for misspelling it. And I was being mildly sarcastic. He didn't say fusion with Marxism. It was fusion with the left and leftist ideas. He wasn't quite so explicit. But in practice it is pretty close to Marxism that likes pot.
Right, so... Libertarianism Plus. Your description seemed to lead me in the right direction.
Didn’t Murray Rothbard play footsies with the New Left in the 60s-70s before discovering new & improved Paleo Conservatism?
Yes. And even endorsed Pat Buchanand David Duke late in life. Rothbard was truly moonbatshit crazy.
It's spelled Reason Contributor Will Wilkinson
Hey now, I have it on the highest authority---the Reason commentariat---that left-libertarianism and anarcho-socialism aren't real and that anyone who isn't an Austro-conservatarian is ipso facto a progressive statist. Get with the program.
No such thing as Libertarian Marxism, unless it is fully voluntary.
Nobody accused actual libertarians of being leftist….
Before Rothbard bragged about hijacking the label, the only people who identified as "libertarians" were anti-state socialists, namely, Proudhonian mutualists, Stirnerite egoist anarchists, and Kropotkinite anarcho-communists. The American school of individualist anarchism (e.g., Warren, Tucker, Spooner) certainly understood itself to be a left-wing movement. Even early 20th-century libertarians tended to think of themselves as radical liberals.
The academics in the US who are working to end patriarchal capitalism and bring in an egalitarian worker's paradise of shared labor and mutual aid are well-meaning progressives.
You can't compare these people in the east who wanted to end patriarchal capitalism and bring in an egalitarian worker's paradise of shared labor and mutual aid.
Pretty much this, if we're being honest.
Communists and Socialists never start off with death camps and murder, that's just where it ends up.
Their intentions don't really matter so much when it's a predictable end result of their actual policies.
https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1555542816453017601?t=gx9_CY25zLuPajNJSVIa-w&s=19
Welch is being intellectually dishonest here by limiting the interpretation of Marxism to its traditional economic interpretation. An honest commenter would have noted that Orban's speech is in reference to the cultural marxists, who are currently the most dominant strain of that dumb belief system that pretends to be scientific, but is really quite faith-based and religious, and that this faction has been growing by leaps and bounds since the late 60s.
Really, the main reason marxists pretend to be atheists isn't because they don't believe in a higher power, it's because they hate the competition.
they believe they ARE the higher power.
It’s not like there aren’t elected officials here and now who believe in the traditional economic interpretation. One of them has almost cinched the Democrat nomination. Twice.
Bernie doesn't have any genuine beliefs, he's just a moron with a shtick/grift
If you're referring to Hillary, she's a corrupt AF neoliberal corporatist with progressive cultural preferences, not an orthodox Marxist. Radical ideologues and establishment power players tend not to get along; hence, Pelosi, insider trader in chief, and the House's DemSoc "squad" deeply despising each other.
And lastly, if we can compare every cranky conservative culture warrior to a Nazi or... in many cases, just call him or xer Hitler, then yes, we can compare American self-described Marxists who explicitly claim their goal is to eliminate global capitalism and forcibly redistribute wealth to Marxists who explicitly claim their goal is to eliminate global capitalism and forcibly redistribute wealth.
Reason spent four years comparing Trump and his supporters to the Nazis but none dare call an open revolutionary Marxist a communist and equate them with the evil communists of the past.
Welch is comically stupid and makes up for it by completely lacking any sense of self awareness.
You're too John Birchy for my tastes, but you're right about that. I'm really tired of Reason's TDS coloring every article they write, tired of all the silence over Marxist academics and local politicians, tired of articles which ignore the liberty aspect to every problem, and tired of articles which concentrate on telling the government how to tax and regulate better instead of telling the government to get out of our lives. Even the Squad gets called out less often than Trump.
Government is the root of all government problems.
For fifty years any time a conservative politician running for dog catcher in rural Alabama said something nice about Jim Crow, the center left media made a national story out of it making every Republican in America guilty by association. Meanwhile, straight up open communists hold elective offices in cities Berkeley, Seattle, Portland, and other places. The center left media never says a word about that. And when one of these nutcases does something outrageous or embarassing, the story is how "Republicans pounced on it".
People like Welch think they are helping the cause by doing this. And it did for a while. In the last ten years, however, the center left's constant apologizing, ignoring, and enabling the far left has allowed the far left to grow so powerful that it is now consuming the center left. The far left woke culture hasn't hurt the right. The right is stronger than ever. What it has done is destroy the center left. The old center leftists in the media and government and law have either been purged or forced to become far leftists themselves.
We are in process of watching the left go insane and destroy itself. That is happening because people like Welch have maintained the double standard you are talking about. They refused to confront or do anything about the far left because it was embarrassing and it was much more fun to slander the right as being extremists. Well, now the far left is consuming them.
The center left media never says a word about that.
They didn't just 'not say a word about it', they often praised it.
They have done nothing but encourage and enable the far left for decades. Now Frankenstein has come home to meet its maker.
they praised it because they are communists.
What it has done is destroy the center left. The old center leftists in the media and government and law have either been purged or forced to become far leftists themselves.
The center-left (and the center-right, for that matter, since they're constantly trying to deflect and tone-police the right) is reaping the rewards of adopting Marcuse's ethic of repressive tolerance.
Wasn't that black lives matter grifter proudly stating on her website that she was a "trained marxist?"
Abraham Kendi is basically proposing redistribution of "wealth" (he uses power in the same way) from a fixed quantity, which is pretty goddamned marxist/socialist.
China has gone back to Maoist levels of socialism and party control. That's a billion and a half people who were getting more economic freedom who are increasingly under surveillance, control, or even genocide.
Um, not only did she say she was a "trained marxist" their website explicitly said that one of BLMs goals was the "destruction of the nuclear family". They removed that when the mainstream started noticing that, now it's widely claimed it was never on their website.
The well meaning western progressives who actually live here and arguably command more sway than some Hungarian President, want to see the reduction of the Nuclear family. I'm sorry if I don't get the vapors over what Orban said at CPAC.
Don't forget she also stole the donated money thus demonstrating she truly internalized communism's core message.
Some pigs are always more equal.
She internalized the outcomes of communism. The messaging is super consistent which is why it continues to win over the useful idiots of this society just as effectively as in other societies of the past.
They removed that when the mainstream started noticing that, now it's widely claimed it was never on their website.
Politifact -
Or they just own it and say "it's not Marxist because fuck you, that's why". And yet, 'not guilty by association' is still a fallacy.
Most people who "support" BLM either don't know what BLM really stands for, or actually subscribe to the pseudo-marxist nonsense.
So, of course Politifact uses a brief period of trendiness as "broadly supported by" as opposed to just admitting that someone was pulling the wool over people's eyes. Because... well, fucking Politifact. I swear, if I wasn't capable of feeling shame I could make myself rich by presenting myself as an "unbiased" "Expert" for whatever goddamned shit someone needed an expert to support.
Whatever, this entire shitshow of an article is evidence of how lacking in integrity progressive media is. Right from the beginning, in the headline with the term "Progressive liberals"... a libertarian magazine should know that there is no such thing. Liberalism and progressivism are always at odds.
Progressives, by the very definition of the ideology, want to use the coercive power of the state to help people, which demands that they take from some people, give to others, dictate what people can and cannot do for their own good, and other decidedly illiberal things.
Liberal means allowing people to make their own decisions, do their own thing. I don't care what you eat, what you smoke, who you fuck, what you want to read, what music you listen to, what art you like. You choose, the government has no reason to stop you if you want to suck a dick, say "fuck", or smoke a bowl.
A "liberal progressive" is about the most ridiculous notion possible. You can be one, you can be the other, but the intersection between these two ideologies is minuscule.
FDR hijacked the "liberal" label after prohibition's debacle killed, at the time, the "progressive" label.
FDR then went on the implement extremely progressive, illiberal policies.
What the fuck is with a Libertarian magazine not even pretending to be anything but mainstream progressive?
This dude's logic is pretty willful. He ignores the rhetorical hyperbole to purposely miss the point. He's not that stupid, he's just unable to take this perspective for what it is -- a different perspective than his own. You don't have to agree to it to listen to it, to understand why it resonates. You can agree with one part of it and not the rest. But, no, Orban is a demon so everything he does has to be wrong.
This is bad journalism.
This is bad journalism.
Which is another way of saying "this article was written by Matt Welch".
Speaking of Viktor Orban:
Jon Stewart on Twitter: Friends. Tonite I am sad. @TuckerCarlson believes me too short to date…and yet somehow, miraculously, I remain tall enough to not know what Victor Orban’s ass tastes like! Is it goulash Tucky? Seems like it would be goulash.
Uggg… witness the blatant homophobia and racism of DNC shill, Jon Stewart. Hey @Jack: doesn’t this kind of homophobia run against Twitter’s rules of conduct? If not, it should. My Black (don’t forget gay) arse is outraged that someone should speak ill of America’s preeminent anti-war* voice.
*Does not pertain to China
"*Does not pertain to China"
Someone else help me out; why is AAA making this distinction?
Because Shrike.
You don't even believe that, you moron.
Do you think I would make a sock to post that weak shit?
You could dox yourself and commit suicide. Then if they keep posting we will know it wasn’t you.
Solutions oriented. I like it.
Yes. Yes I do.
turd, you are so stupid that there is nearly nothing which is posted here which is not, believably, uttered by you.
You are a fucking 6th grade drop-out, asshole; logic and facts are a mystery to you.
Eat shit and die.
Because it is as unfunny as the other two paragraphs?
If somebody has doubts whether progressive liberals and communists are the same, just ask us Hungarians. We fought them both, and I can tell you they are the same."
The claim that communists have come back "stronger than ever" would surely be news to the three dozen or so modern-day countries whose populations in 1988 were still under the iron boot. Only in China, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba have communist parties retained their monopoly on power.
This betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the assertion. The common belief in Hungary is when Communism fell the corrupt communist bureaucrats were never removed from government. Instead they merely announced their allegiance to progressivism as the newly dominant ideology and continued their corruption. The issue is not that the ideologies are indistinguishable, that's merely the strawman Welch creates and attacks. The issue is that Hungary never improved because literally the same people remained in control of government and abused it for their own benefit.
What are the chances Welch would ever make such a mistake in a way that didn't dump on conservatives? Zero. That's how you know who he considers his real enemies: they don't deserve the respect of having their policies addressed honestly. Any attack is legitimate because conservatives are not.
What are the chances Welch would ever make such a mistake in a way that didn't dump on conservatives? Zero. That's how you know who he considers his real enemies: they don't deserve the respect of having their policies addressed honestly. Any attack is legitimate because conservatives are not.
Maybe Welch and chemtard, radical deathfat are neighbors.
Always worth a reminder:
https://mobile.twitter.com/mattwelch/status/1102654202545913857?s=12
Do you remember what triggered that? Wishing mass murder on "every single conservative writer" seems extreme.
Well, those are the rules they've imposed on the rest of us.
Kill or be killed.
In his triumphant speech Thursday at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) in Dallas, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán played one of the oldest—and most morally grotesque—rhetorical cards in the central European diplomatic playbook: comparing the domestic political opponents of his audience with the totalitarian murderers who once subjugated his homeland.
ROFLMAO! Yeah, other than the morally repugnant rhetoric blaming the socialists for Germany's plight, Hitler was an OK political leader. How about the rhetoric of cultural unity being justification redraw international borders like Poland, Ukraine, and Kosovo, Matt? Does that approach the moral repugnance of calling socialists socialists? Why don't you just, in a totally not-morally-repugnant way, tell Orban not to believe his lying eyes?
You're a fucking cartoon character Matt! GTFO!
"comparing the domestic political opponents of his audience with the totalitarian murderers who once subjugated his homeland."
As noted above, I don't hear Matt complaining about his fellow far left progressives calling Trump and every GOP candidate "literally Hitler". That is totes okay. But when Matt's political enemies use this tactic against him and the progtards, NOW it's grotesque.
Matt, you can fuck off.
This is exactly like that New York Times piece about how Fascist Russia is because of "I'm rubber you're glue" logic: https://archive.ph/6BYa5
"comparing the domestic political opponents of his audience with the totalitarian murderers who once subjugated his homeland."
We can also just start reading some UN, WEF, and establishment/leftist literature to see how the comparison holds up...
I think it's worth noting that Orban himself has been regularly compared to Hitler for decades by the same kind of people that openly advocate for murdering their political opponents.
Eh, beat me to it.
I'm not an "Orban fan" but I'm sorry to say, this is what you get. You sat on the sidelines and snickered when saner heads attempted to prevail with the overtly leftist takeover of all of our institutions, hollowing them out until everything fell into a sickening pattern of hyper-race consciousness and the denial of the existence of sex while literally enforcing gender stereotypes. The reason the right is reaching for someone like Orban is because he uses the unapologetic language that should have been used ten years ago.
The kind of people who are unafraid of being canceled at this stage are going to look and sound like Orban and Trump. Because all the reasonable people were chased into the shadows with accusations of racism, misogyny and transphobia.
Like I said above, the center left is dead. And now it is whining that the evil right is doing what the center left should have been doing 20 years ago.
is because he uses the unapologetic language
This is EXACTLY why Trump got the republican nomination.
When they tried to pin that KKK guy on him he just said "we're not talking about that right now". When they asked if one of his campaign boasts was unworkable he'd double down. He was basically an internet troll for stupid press members and they were biting on every line he'd throw out.
The lesson willfully ignored by everyone in DC about the Capitol riot was that average, middle class, moderate and conservative, mainstream Americans felt completely unrepresented, disenfranchised. Despised, even. And that's been happening for a LONG time. All the way back to Bush/Obama eras, it just came to a head after the lockdowns and riots.
Tell someone they're a piece of shit long enough, they'll find someone who's willing to call your bullshit out to support.
The lesson willfully ignored by everyone in DC about the Capitol riot was that average, middle class, moderate and conservative, mainstream Americans felt completely unrepresented, disenfranchised.
This is the same group who had complete control of all levers of government 2017-2018. The House, Senate, Court, Executive branch - and they felt unrepresented?
Too bad you squandered it. Donnie Boy couldn't even build a goddamn wall.
You did get your long sought after abortion ban though. To be followed by lots more bans.
Fuck the GOP.
All we got was a fucking abortion ban and $3 trillion budget deficits.
Fuck Donald Trump and his Big Government acolytes.
We all know you like to fuck children.
Turn yourself in for your crimes against children.
It will be awesome when you’re finally out in prison for your activities as a pedophile.
I must have done something. Usually the 50 centers and trolls ignore my posts, but I've been responded to by grey bars a lot this week. And I haven't even said much.
Whatever. I'm grouchy. If it rouuses someone so foul I muted them on THIS message board, it's probably good.
Orban and Trump are soft.
I'll take Franco and Pinochet.
I must have missed all those articles reason put out to give us the other of the 'both sides' on this one, where they denounce all the people on the left, in the MSM, who on TV, associate modern conservatives with "christianofascism'.
Weird. Like all the lefties that show up to comment here, Matty boy takes his time to specifically defend the left from criticism despite them actually deserving plenty, but crickets when it goes the other way.
Almost like this is becoming just another prog mouthpiece.
Well, Matt and Reason Editors sure do seem to carry a lot of water for far left progressives. Draw your own conclusions.
How your demagogic sausage is made:
Orbán's bizarre and historically illiterate claims Thursday that "a Christian politician cannot be racist," that "the most evil things in modern history were carried out by people who hated Christianity," and that "the horrors of Nazism and communism happened because some Western states in continental Europe abandoned their Christian values, and today's progressives are planning to do the same."
Nothing historically inaccurate about it. In fact Matt is the one flat-out lying here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenkampf#Nazi_persecution_of_the_Christian_churches
I don't think Matt is ignorant of the Nazi antipathy to Christianity. He's hoping we are.
It's not just Americans who should know damn well that the desultory ranks of openly racist politicians in our lifetimes have included Christians.
Matt links to Strom Thermond. lol
Hungary, during the tail end of World War II, was ruled by the notorious Jew-murdering Arrow Cross Party, founded by the Catholic Ferenc Szálasi, who served a dual role during that reign of terror as prime minister and minister of religion and education.
Matt accidentally-on-purpose fails to mention that Szálasi and the Arrow Cross were denounced by the Vatican before the war.
The Nazi antipathy towards Christianity appears largely due to the dual-loyalty issue. It's nonetheless convenient for right-wingers to elide between organised Christian Churches and Christians when it comes to Nazi persecution of Christianity. Christians were not persecuted for being Christians.
And there's this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany
I also recall a line from Lanzmann's "Shoah" - a Polish woman saying, "it's a pity what happened to the Jews...but they did kill Jesus".
You need to read better sources than Wikipedia. Seriously. Nazi antipathy towards Christianity was more than just duel loyalty.
In the 1920's, as they battled for power, the Nazis realized that the churches in overwhelmingly Christian Germany needed to be neutralized before they would get anywhere. Two-thirds of German Christians were Protestants, belonging to one of 28 regional factions of the German Evangelical Church. Most of the rest were Roman Catholics. On one level, the Nazis saw an advantage. In tumultuous post-World War I Germany, the Christian churches ''had long been associated with conservative ways of thought, which meant that they tended to agree with the National Socialists in their authoritarianism, their attacks on Socialism and Communism, and in their campaign against the Versailles treaty'' that had ended World War I with a bitterly resentful Germany.
According to Baldur von Schirach, the Nazi leader of the German youth corps that would later be known as the Hitler Youth, ''the destruction of Christianity was explicitly recognized as a purpose of the National Socialist movement'' from the beginning, though ''considerations of expedience made it impossible'' for the movement to adopt this radical stance officially until it had consolidated power, the outline says.
Attracted by the strategic value inherent in the churches' ''historic mission of conservative social discipline,'' the Nazis simply lied and made deals with the churches while planning a ''slow and cautious policy of gradual encroachment'' to eliminate Christianity.
https://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/13/weekinreview/word-for-word-case-against-nazis-hitler-s-forces-planned-destroy-german.html
There is more at the link but you get the idea.
And once again, stop using wikipedia for your knowledge of history.
Wiki-stunted libertarians are at liberty to readThe Education of Henry Adams as well as Mill's On Liberty.
Narrator: SRG did not read the post or the provided link and continued to use Wikipedia.
None of you complained when Mother's Lament cited Wikipedia. Sauce for the goose....
I use it as a jumping off point and it does provide references. I agree it's not a primary sauce. Duh, in fact.
Your own wikipedia link actually completely disproves your assertion. Didn't you read it?
Hitler and several other key Nazis had been raised Catholic, but became hostile to the Church in adulthood; Article 24 of the NSDAP party platform called for conditional toleration of Christian denominations and the 1933 Reichskonkordat treaty with the Vatican guaranteed religious freedom for Catholics, but the Nazis sought to suppress the power of the Catholic Church in Germany.
Catholic press, schools, and youth organizations were closed, property was confiscated, and about one-third of its clergy faced reprisals from authorities; Catholic lay leaders were among those murdered during the Night of the Long Knives...
Nazi persecution of the church was intense; many Polish clergy were targeted for extermination. Through his links to the German Resistance, Pope Pius XII warned the Allies of the planned Nazi invasion of the Low Countries in 1940. The Nazis gathered dissident priests that year in a dedicated barracks at Dachau, where 95 percent of its 2,720 inmates were Catholic (mostly Poles, with 411 Germans); over 1,000 priests died there. Expropriation of church properties surged after 1941...
And that's not even getting to the subheading on persecution:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany#Persecution
"Christians were not persecuted for being Christians."
Christians were persecuted for being Christians. The Nazis were no different than the Soviets when it came to religious tolerance. Many evangelical sects and the Jehovah Witnesses were sent to camps alongside the Jews.
And in the larger sphere they tried to ban Christmas and Easter FFS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_in_Nazi_Germany#Christmas_in_the_Nazi_regime
Corrie Ten Boom also wrote of how in Ravensbruck concentration camp the prisoners had to hide their bibles, which the Nazi guards openly called “The Book of Lies.”
You need to read better sources than Wikipedia. Seriously. Nazi antipathy towards Christianity was more than just duel loyalty.
Pretty sure this is Pod's new sockpuppet. The historical ignorance and intellectual laziness are the main tells.
Pretty sure this is Pod's new sockpuppet. The historical ignorance and intellectual laziness are the main tells.
Neither historically ignorant nor intellectually lazy - though you must be stupid if you cannot distinguish between seppoid and British writing styles.
You right-wing authoritarian types, being so concerned that your position be not confused with outright Nazism, always overstate your case, That's why one finds ignorant arguments that Nazis were left-wingers, or were pagan, for example.
Literally nothing you wrote here is accurate. Maybe if you weren't an historically ignorant, intellectually lazy hicklib marxist, that wouldn't be the case.
No evidence, cracker.
He's right, shrike. Literally nothing you wrote was accurate as your own link proved.
"No evidence, cracker."
Every one of your posts is evidence, shitpile.
Plenty of evidence, hicklib.
Ignorant people like you keep believing the lie that Nazis were not left-wingers, and you keep repeating this lie.
The Nazi antipathy towards Christianity appears largely due to the dual-loyalty issue.
ROFLMAO!
The Nazi antipathy towards homosexuality appears largely due to the dual-loyalty issue.
The Nazi antipathy towards Roma and Sinti appears largely due to the dual-loyalty issue.
The Nazi antipathy towards emigrants appears largely due to the dual-loyalty issue.
The Nazi antipathy towards trade unionists appears largely due to the dual-loyalty issue.
Nobody said the Christians suffered more or worse at the hands of the Nazis than the Jews did. Are you really trying to bash or downplay the persecution of Christians by simping for Nazis using their own rhetoric (98% of the clergy imprisoned at Dachau were Catholic Priests with a red triangle [connoting a political prisoner] and a black 'P' [connoting Polish])?
And someone else eliding between Christian churches and Christians.
"If the Nazis only purged homosexuals from the bath houses and gay bars, they wouldn't have been persecuting homosexuals." - SRG
I explicitly listed homosexuals, emigrants, Roma/Sinti, trade unionists. I'm not eliding between Churches and Christians. I'm not distinguishing between nominal and conspicuous selective purging by Nazis in defense of Nazis.
Hitler hated Christianity itself, not just the churches. He made that crystal clear. His hatred for Christianity is literally indistinguishable from that of the modern American left: he viewed Christianity as unscientific, irrational, and designed to keep people oppressed.
Nazis were progressives, and they had the same attitudes towards religion as progressives:
He also leaves out the Azov battalion and their Democrat, progressive and Reason support to this very day if his logic is to be applied to him as well as those he hates.
You guys are flat-out wrong and full of crap. The 25-Point Program of the Nazi Party explicitly says in Points 18 and 24:
18. We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.
24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence nor offend the moral feelings of the German race.
The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialist spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.
Nazi Party Platform--Holocaust Encyclopedia
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/nazi-party-platform
This sure doesn't sound "Anti-Christian" to me.
The Nazis also admired Martin Luther's notorious pamphlet Von Den Jüden Und Ihren Lügen (On The Jews And Their Lies) and cited it with great relish:
https://web.archive.org/web/20050103042654/http://jdstone.org/cr/pages/sss_mluther.html
The Nazis also made a friendly Concordat with The Roman Catholic Church and the Nazis furthermore outlawed all Atheist and Freethought societies.
Finally, not only did Adolf Hitler never renounce his Catholic upbringing, but more tellingly, The Church never renounced him, even thought they could see their way to excommunicate advocates of birth control.
Do better. Start again.
Arguing about the Nazis or the Vatican in WWII is rather missing the point. Do you children think racism began in 1923 with Hitler? It's not universal throughout history - the Romans indiscriminately conquered, robbed, mistreated, murdered, and enslaved people of any color, including even enslaving poor Romans - but that was two millenia ago.
In the 19th Century and earlier, at least half of the Christian churches in the USA were quite explicitly racist. Once the southern economy came to depend on slave labor, nearly every southern church taught that blacks were doomed by God to inferiority and slavery. In the north, slavery wasn't so popular, but few churches taught that blacks were equal, and many churches taught that blacks were the children of Ham and under the curse of Canaan. (I heard this in a Congregational Bible school in Arizona around 1959!) This Christian racism carried on in both the north and the south at least until WWII ended and the Nazi extermination camps were discovered.
Hitler's greatest accomplishment was quite accidental: He made racism so awful that people started to reject it. But only in a few countries...
Right-wing authoritarian types getting bent out of shape when a writer on a non-authoritarian website criticises a fascist leader that these types evidently admire enough to think him worth defending...
Hint: you can't be a Christo-fascist and be a libertarian.
Second hint: you can condemn Christo-fascism and be a libertarian.
Here is a hint "Christo-fasciost" isn't a real word. It doesn't mean anything except for maybe being a signal that the person using it is a retard who is speaking a buzz word he has been taught.
Come back when you can use actual words that convey actual thoughts. This isn't the Daily Kos. Emoting and meaningless buzzwords doesn't cut it doofus.
Silly Briggs, anyone who doesn’t agree with SRG is a Christofascist.
Silly peasant. I disagree with communists, laissez-faire capitalists, Objectivists, fundamentalist religious types (of all religions except FSM), Trumpists, Squadists, anti-Zionists, anti-GMO hysterics, flat-earthers, Palmer Reportists, and Methodists*
* Comedy reference
IOWs, you're a run of the mill socialist! No wonder you're called a lefty shit!
Peasant, I am generally opposed to the state owning the means of production and favour market over distributive economies, ergo, not a socialist.
"Peasant, I am generally opposed to the state owning the means of production"
Asshole, I am 100% opposed to the state owning the mans of production.
You are a socialist, but willing to allow some private action; we get it.
The two big innovations in socialism at the beginning of the 20th century were (1) to divide people by race instead of class, and (2) to leave private individuals in charge of the means of production but regulate them in the interest of the state.
This is the program of the modern American left. And I believe it is your program as well.
leave private individuals in charge of the means of production but regulate them in the interest of the state.
There’s a word explicitly invented for such an economic system.
Don’t tell me. Let me think.
It was pretty popular in the 20’s and 30’s, and took over much of Europe in the early 40’s. Was big on sharp looking uniforms and big night time rallies.
Begins with an ‘F’.
Ok, I forget. A little help here?
My point is that post-WWII, the distinctions between fascism and socialism have become meaningless; socialism these days is usually based on widespread private ownership of the means of production, with strong state supervision.
Socialists these think of "the market" as this magic genie: they tell it their policy objectives, and the market makes it happen. And if it doesn't work, they just need to punish the reactionaries harder.
In the old socialism, at least the socialist leaders understood that they needed to plan and that they were responsible when things went wrong. These days, socialists don't plan and don't take responsibility for anything.
Where'd you get that Socialist planners took responsibility for failures. They always blamed their famines on "wreckers, saboteurs, Kulaks, Running Dog Capitalists, or Jews."
Then again, you think police and military protecting the Individual Rights to Life, Liberty, and Property is Socialistic.
I didn't say that they "took responsibility", I said that they "understood they were responsible", regardless of what their propaganda machine actually said.
I don't think that.
I do think that you are a blithering idiot.
It never gets old hearing people complain about 'Christian fascism' while spouting Yiddish's insults and without even a passing reference to a much more modern religious-fascist group known collectively as Islam.
It's basically a giant neon sign that screams 'Modern Progressive' without actually owning the label.
I use the term "Christo-Fascism" quite a lot and I dislike progressives a lot. I especially hate the progs who make excuses for that gutter ideology called "Islam".
I am a Sam Harris/Chris Hitchens atheist. I hate all religion. But Islam is the worst followed closely by Jeebyism.
Jews I like since Bob Dylan is my musical hero. There is no Judeo-Fascism to speak of. Yes, there is Zionism but they aren't trying to convert the world like the two big offensive religions are.
The Buttplug has spoken for now. Hopefully one of you Peanuts will learn something some day.
Lol. Bob Dylan is an Evangelical Christian too. If you were a Dylan fan you'd have known that, Shrike.
https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/long-reads/bob-dylan-christian-born-again-slow-train-gospel-b1070623.html
You and SRG are the only people I’ve seen use it. Not surprising that you’re both demfags.
Just like Hitler.
And that is also why "RELIGION-fascism" doesn't make much sense, because fascists hate religion in general. (The one exception is perhaps Islam, because Islam is both a political ideology and a religion, and fascists admired the former aspect of it.)
This thread did not bring up Islam. I am not some Cato, compelled to utter "Cartago delenda est" at the end of a speech regardless of how irrelevant to preceding remarks.
And fwiw right-wing authoritarian Christians present a greater threat to Jews in the US than right-wing authoritarian Muslims, hence in context I am more concerned about demagogues appealing to the former than to the latter. The threat to us from left-wing authoritarian Muslims via BDS seems less concerning to me - and so far has been easier to oppose.
And fwiw right-wing authoritarian Christians present a greater threat to Jews in the US than right-wing authoritarian Muslims
LOL is really the only appropriate response to this.
I got evidence, bitch. What have you got?
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/six-facts-about-threats-jewish-community
You're a lying pile of shit. Nothing in taht link connected antisemitism to right-wing authoritarian Christians.
Are you simply too stupid to understand that of a lying pile of shit?
You mean that with all those references to white nationalists and supremacists they weren't Christian? Idiot.
No, asshole, there was ONE reference to a Xian right-winger, as opposed to:
"Hating Jews is becoming a leftist purity test"
https://www.jns.org/opinion/hating-jews-is-becoming-a-leftist-purity-test/
1st hit on Bing search.
"right-wing authoritarian Christians present a greater threat to Jews in the US than right-wing authoritarian Muslims...
I got evidence, bitch. What have you got?"
Ctrl+f "Christian"
*Not found*
Plenty of Muslims in those links though, Shrike.
Do you actually even believe the bullshit you post, or do you really imagine we're all that gullible?
Also, that's the second link you posted tonight that you obviously didn't read.
Always read Shrike's links, folks. He's lazy with Google and never gets past the headline, and hopes we won't either.
As should be included in the stock Sevo-turd reply: "read any turd link; nearly always, it is the opposite of turd's claim"
Not sure that SRG is a turd sock, but SRG seems equally unlettered and stupid besides.
Peasant, you think that all these white supremacists and nationalists were not Christian?
They were definitely Democrats.
Maybe you want to point out a prominent abolitionist (In the UK where it started or in America) or civil rights leader that wasn't an evangelical.
And then maybe you want to point out a white supremacist website that isn't predominantly neopagan.
Asshole, do you think the rest of us here are as pathetically ignorant as you?
Eat shit and die.
ChristoFascism and IslamoFascism are both real and both suck. Ya happy?
Christo-fascism is a real word with a real meaning, try as hard as you like to deny it, for reasons we can of course guess at. It's been in existence for 50 years, but has gained recent currency as the ideology so named as grown more popular in the US.
Look up Romanian Peasant Revolution...
Liberation Theology as well. Those Jesuits..
"Christo-fascism is a real word with a real meaning"
Outside of your nutty anti-theist demagoguery, no. Your own links proved that.
Stop lying, peasant.
Google is your enemy
https://www.google.com/search?q=christo-fascism
From the very first article in your link:
"Christofascism", a neologism coined by liberation theologist Dorothee Sölle in 1970.
I did say "outside of your nutty anti-theist demagoguery", and a slur crafted by a communist definitely fits.
It goes on:
"Usage of the term caused controversy in 2007, when Melissa McEwan, a campaign blogger for then-presidential candidate John Edwards, referred to religious conservatives as "Christofascists" on her personal blog."
You guys invented it as a slur. Nobody identifies as a Christian-fascist. As I said it's used by you guys solely for the purposes of demagoguery.
It's no more real chosen identity than calling you a Pedo-Democrat.
SRG caught bullshitting AGAIN?! How can that be?
Must be that someone who got further than the 6th grade read one of his posts.
Commies have a history of calling everything they don’t like fascist. But even the clinical definitions are victims of broad brush.
The Spanish and the Romanians had a strong state/church axis and were lumped in with the fascist movements going on around them do to their nationalist vs. internationalist stances. Maybe that’s the historical root of this notion of “Christian fascism”. But really, Franco and co were just militarist, traditionalist, reactionaries who nationalized their industries.
The actual fascists were mostly radicals, peddling a utilitarian (as opposed to utopian) nationalist (as opposed to internationalist) form of syndicalism or socialism. Franco disposed of the actual fascists once he got power, as did many other countries where the fascists had failed to sufficiently woo or infiltrate the military or industry.
(And the national socialists were technically different in a lot of ways from any of them. )
Commies have a history of calling everything they don’t like fascist. But even the clinical definitions are victims of broad brush.
Yes, and likewise far-right types - including some here - have the same habit of calling everything they don't like "communism".
But that doesn't mean that fascism doesn't exist.
I agree with you about the broad-bush nature of much of this. What I think you overlook, though, in your interesting post (not being sarcastic), is the importance of nationalist symbols and tropes, which are hallmarks of fascism and are what we see clearly with Orban and some on the right here.
I’d argue Progressives are definitely on the same spectrum as commies and have been acting more and more like it every year.
Fascists of any ilk are not necessarily on the same spectrum as a bunch of individualist fans of free enterprise. They both tend to hate commies and wave flags. That’s about it.
To me, fascists and commies have more in common with each other than any market liberals (in the classical sense). Of which modern American conservatives are a branch of (whether they want to hear it put that way or not).
Plus Communism tends to just become fascism. Even turn of the century American progressivism became FDRs weird, technocratic corporatist whatever you wanna call it.
And the idea that nationalism (as opposed to internationalism) is in and of itself “fascist”, is to me a sign of how far Marxism has its hooks in common perception.
"Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State."
If here "the State" is interpreted as meaning the government, then fascism is a type of totalizing socialism.
However if here "the State" is interpreted as a type of national identity, then fascism is a type of nationalism.
Any “liberal democracy” in the 30s and the 40s were national states.
We’ve got to have slightly more specific parameters for fascism than “nation states”.
To me, fascists and commies have more in common with each other than any market liberals (in the classical sense).
Well, the idea that the left-right spectrum is a circle is an old one - and China demonstrated it. Prior to Xi grabbing economic power back from the private economy, China had moved from being a Communist country to being a fascist one by going around the "back end" of the spectrum - and now has returned to Communist,
Of which modern American conservatives are a branch of (whether they want to hear it put that way or not).
Some American conservatives are indeed "classical liberals", but all too many self-described conservatives are Trump supporters, who are in no sense liberals. or pro-markets. They are radical (hence not conservative) right-wingers, often enough anti-capitalist.
"...but all too many self-described conservatives are Trump supporters, who are in no sense liberals..."
You.
Are.
A
TDSS-addled.
Asshole.
And an incorrect one.
The political right consists of traditionalists, monarchists, libertarians, and conservative Christians.
The political left consists of anti-capitalist, anti-religious collectivists. That comprises socialists, communists, fascists, and progressives.
There is no "circle". The left and the right are diametrically opposed.
China didn't "go around", it switched from one leftist, collectivist, anti-capitalist ideology to another.
Well, if by "far right types" you mean "non-communists", that kind of amounts to a tautology.
Nationalist symbols and tropes long, long predated fascism. In fact, most political movements other than socialism are nationalist. Perhaps that's why everybody who isn't a communist appears like a fascist to you.
Furthermore, the Nazis weren't actually nationalists: they killed millions of German nationals after all. The Nazis were racist: they divided people up by race and treated them differently based on race, not nationality. The Nazis learned that from American progressives, a tradition American progressives have continued to this very day.
Hint: you can't be a "Christo-fascist" at all because there is no such thing. Fascism and Christianity are diametrically opposed.
xOnly in China, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba have communist parties retained their monopoly on power.
Is there some technicality why which you are not including North Korea in this list?
Russia doesn't count because, you know, all the switching around of people, governments, coalitions, and official leadership positions, who, at this point, could really know if Demitry Medvedev and Vladimir Putin were members of the CPSU under the former Union? I mean, if the former communist party splintered, and the members vied against each other for power and kept the power within the same group of people who were united under the former party, they didn't *really* retain their monopoly on power did they?
Besides it's not like they're doing the most morally repugnant thing of all, calling a socialist a socialist.
Eh, Russia is basically a monarchy again at this point. Party is just a way of trying to connect with Putin, and it's rule through his personal connections.
And China? Ultimately, this is just another iteration of "True Marxism has never been tried."
I think in China the Party still has prominence, though Xi currently controls it.
Both China and Russia are too opaque to get a great read on, but the impression I get is of Russia as an autocratic monarchy in all but name, while China is a totalitarian Party State like the USSR.
Both China and Russia are too opaque to get a great read on, but the impression I get is of Russia as an autocratic monarchy in all but name, while China is a totalitarian Party State like the USSR.
Interesting that the country with the literal dictator-for-life is the Party State and the country with the President up for his "final election" this year is the authoritarian monarchy.
The China/Russia distinction sounds like the distinction between late and early Stalinism to me.
The prime minister, who has drawn rebukes this year from the governments of several bordering countries for expressing unrequited dissatisfaction with the post-World War I map-drawing Treaty of Trianon,
oh no! Not that! Disagreeing with the outcomes of the post-WWI Treat of Trianon? Surely this is the greatest monster of our time.
The Treaty of Thrianon is considered one of the worst and most unjust treaties ever signed. It totally screwed ethnic minorities all over central and southeastern Europe. It totally screwed the ethnic Germans living in Poland and Czechoslovakia and gave the Nazis a very legitimate grievance which they exploited to the hilt.
Welch is an idiot.
After reading this mess of an article, as far as I can tell the big things wrong with Orban are
1. He's anti-communist (this alone is enough but there's more!)
2. He's pro-Hungary (being the Prime Minister of that country might have something to do with it)
3. He wants the Ukrainian war to end. (Clearly only evil intent would cause him to take this position)
4. He's espouses Christianity and Christian ideals ( his biggest flaw to any journalist...)
This article was amazing.
3. He wants the Ukrainian war to end.
Yet according to Welch, Orban is the one who wants to "destabilize Europe", whatever that means.
I think Orban and Welch are at cross purposes here. Orban, as best I can tell is saying that no "real Christian" can be a racist, and on that note, I would be inclined to agree.
For instance, in the history of anti-slavery in the US it was primarily a Christian movement, not a movement of forward-thinking secular center left technocrats.
What Welch is saying is that there is a long history of people claiming to be Christians, and nominally practicing Christianity (going to church etc) who were racists and he would be correct.
For instance, I would suppose that Matt might take issue with someone who claimed that slavery is a fundamental or central feature of capitalism, because capitalists have practiced slavery.
To put it more succinctly, Christ isn't a racist, but he does discriminate.
"Racism" is a belief about the relative intelligence and abilities of different races; it is intrinsically a scientific and progressive idea.
Christians simply do not concern themselves with relative intelligence and abilities. Christianity says that intelligence and abilities are irrelevant to the value and dignity of a human being.
It wouldn't shock me very much if all those years Park Slope Welchie Boy spent over there in eastern Europe before the accursed day he ended up here were spent working on behalf of the Soviets.
Well, it looks like only today's posts are visible. Fine, who cares.
One more thought about the author. As per his W page, he (sort of) began his journalistic career in Prague - at any rate, he spent 5 years there. Whether because he had family ties, or just a simple stroke of randomness, he made that choice, and he was likely influenced by the nationalism of the Czechs, which, from the olden days of being in one country with the Slovaks on, endorsed the virulently anti-Hungarian "Benes Decrees". They are, by the way, still an official policy platform of the current Chech Republic. One reason why ethnic Hungarians in the successor states are not so going-ho about identifying with these new countries is precisely that type of attitude towards them.
See the forcible deportation of Germans from Poland and Czechoslovakia after World War II for an example of how suddenly finding yourself an ethnic minority in Europe isn't such a good thing.
It wasn't family ties. He was young and wanted an adventure. And there was no hipper place to go back then.
Where in the world has Matt Welch shown any anti-Hungarian sentiment???
Having done the nation a service by linking Reason readers to Henry Adams' autobiography, Matt should send Orban a copy.
Reading these comments really is fascinating.
It's unfair when progressives call us Nazis and fascists, but you really do believe that the progressives are communists. That's not a slur or an insult or hyperbole, you really truly think that. They are communists who would have been completely happy in 1920's Russia or 1950's China.
So of course you are never going to give any Democrat any serious consideration of any of their ideas. Because they are the same people who pushed the Holodomor and the Cultural Revolution. Taking Nancy Pelosi's argument seriously is like taking Stalin's argument seriously - no moral person would ever do that. To seriously consider a Democrat's argument is to implicitly condone communism and give it more respect than it deserves, regardless of the substance of the argument itself. Just the fact that it comes from a Democrat (communist) makes it morally tainted.
So the 'Green New Deal' is just nothing more than a warmed-over Great Leap Forward. It's got to be resisted regardless of what is true or not true about climate change. Nothing that the 'experts' could ever say about the perils of climate change could even come close to the peril represented by the Green New Deal itself. What good is a healed climate if we are all in gulags?
Do I have that about right?
Do I have that about right?
No, you have it exactly backwards. The very people who whine about calling people communists routinely call their enemies Nazis. Other people, like yourself, try to protect those who call others Nazis by placing blame solely on those who criticize the practice instead of those who engage in it.
Bonus points for posing as neutral though.
Really?
So when I wrote
So of course you are never going to give any Democrat any serious consideration of any of their ideas.
that does not apply in your case?
It's interesting I point out your objection is true of the people you're trying to protect, but instead of addressing that you try a new attack so you don't have to acknowledge it.
You're still protecting them, and revealing yourself.
Oh right. This is the Jesse schtick of "if you didn't criticize the left that means you support the left". Get bent with that type of nonsense.
You’re attempting to evade. As usual. If we change subjects, it will be to address your support of the leftist pro pedophile agenda.
This is the Jesse schtick of "if you didn't criticize the left that means you support the left".
This is of course, stupid. The left has been calling the right Nazis for decades without any criticism from you. But the second someone criticizes the left you're all out white knighting for them. Apparently we're supposed to believe you suddenly care about decorum and respect even though the fact has been in your face for decades without a single complain in what, 50,000 comments? What remarkable restraint considering any such comment in reverse triggers your white knighting.
The "schtick" is that you use principles to attack the right which you never apply to the left. Maybe this is because you only pretend not to be a leftist, or maybe it's because you recognize them as allies and thus treat them differently. But it is indisputable true that you do not judge left and right according to the same standards.
Then you whine and pretend others cannot recognize these clear differences.
Get bent with that type of nonsense.
Fuck off.
The left has been calling the right Nazis for decades without any criticism from you.
This is a lie, along with the rest of your garbage. Stop channeling Jesse, it will rot your brain.
But it is indisputable true that you do not judge left and right according to the same standards.
This part is actually correct though. I am harsher on the right than I am on the left. That's never exactly been a secret. It is also the case that treating the left and the right with different standards is also how approximately 99% of the commenters here behave, except most in the opposite direction. So no, I am not scrupulously fair, neither are you, neither is anyone else around here.
Why do you not judge me by the same standards that you judge everyone else around here? Hmm?
Why don't you go on a diet and lose weight? Hmm?
The left has been calling the right Nazis for decades without any criticism from you.
This is a lie, along with the rest of your garbage. Stop channeling Jesse, it will rot your brain.
You're either a liar or an idiot. I remember a political commentator referring to a GOP campaign event to re-elect GHWB as a Nuremburg rally, so that was 1992. Their sin: chanting "4 more years! 4 more years!", a harmless if juvenile bit of theater (as is most campaign fodder).
You always have to protect the left. There are thousands of references to cons as Nazis and fascists based on similar evidence, or none at all. In the spirit of generosity we'll accept you're a leftist ally (although not a particularly effective one given how implausible your denials are) rather than an idiot.
They literally called Bush the lesser a Nazi and last time I checked they was 20 years ago, so yes, it has been decades.
I’d be willing to bet that someone can dig up prominent democrats stomping their feet and calling Regan a Nazi too.
All of this of course ignores the fact that the Democrat party believes the means of production (and capital in general) should, at the bare minimum, be put to use in the direction of the government, and often times espouses ideas of everything (including children) belongs to the community.
There are commenters here who routinely call for murdering progressives. Have you ever said one word in protest? Hmm?
Apparently we're supposed to believe you suddenly care about fair treatment of both sides even though the fact has been in your face for decades without a single complain in what, 50,000 comments?
It's just an in-kind contribution, fat-boy.
If your lefty boos get curb-stomped, it's only bad if you're not right next to them waiting for your turn.
There are commenters here who routinely call for murdering progressives.
A couple of days ago sarc claimed I wanted to kill Pelosi. This was not true of course, he just made it up because it helped him win (in his own mind at least). This is how leftists debate. Since they control the institutions where the debates are held they understand their lies will be protected (much like how the media protected Biden by uncritically reporting the deep state's assertion Hunter's laptop was disinformation while refusing to investigate). This is expected among allies, similar to how you white knight to protect the left by pretending to support decorum and respect - but only when doing so protects the left. So lying becomes a standard part of their "debating". Whether you are a leftist or are simply adopting your allies tactics is not particularly relevant.
Since this accusation seems very similar I'll grant it the same merit sarc's deserved until you provide some evidence.
Apparently we're supposed to believe you suddenly care about fair treatment of both sides even though the fact has been in your face for decades without a single complain in what, 50,000 comments?
This is false. Probably 80% of my comments are specifically about judging both sides by the same standards. Note that I don't bother criticizing people who call the right fascists or Nazis, I only point out when people do that and then make a big deal about being called communists. It is true that my comments point this out on the left far more often, but that's largely because the left's institutional control make this a successful tactic on the left. The right doesn't control academia allowing them to create the disparate standards in the first place.
Can't murder what's not human, cancer.
It is more fitting to call these Trump Cultists "fascists" instead of Nazis since they don't engage in genocide. Now some of them want to, of course. And they do hate the Jews,,, er, the Globalists. Let me get their nomenclature right.
And yes, they are fascists all right. The cult of the Strongman Trump, the hatred of non-WASP types, the glorification of Jeeby, the military and pre civil rights America.
This little whore name Lauren Boebert recently said that th eUS Constitution was legally subservient to Christian law. Yes, that little cunt said that and meant it.
Wow, I was getting rusty. I need to sharpen my game up and come back later.
After a while I think the name-calling just gets old.
Republicans aren't fascists and Democrats aren't communists.
Most Trump Cultists ARE fascist.
No where in the fascist template is genocide mentioned.
Read Britt's 14 characteristics of Fascism.
Hatred of intellectuals/elites.
Strong Nationalism. Militarism.
Belief in ethic/religious superiority.
Disdain for democracy. Hatred of gays/womens rights.
to name a few.
All 14 are interwoven - thus 'Fasces' meaning a bundle of sticks that are stronger tied together.
Where do pedophiles like you enter into this equation?
"Most Trump Cultists ARE fascist."
All TDS-addled piles of shit find anyone supporting a large percentage of Trump's policies "cultists".
TDS might cause brain damage, but turd has been brain-damaged long before the onset of TDS.
Democrats aren't communists.
They seem to think income inequality is the biggest problem we face in the world. If only there were some word for income equality we could use to describe them.
Income inequality concerns are not a proxy for communism. I agree that some simple-minded solutions to income inequality move towards it, but almost no-one is advocating for seizing the means of production, and that really is a major requirement, and there is abundant evidence that too high a level of income inequality is harmful to an economy. (Pragmatic capitalists like me look at outcomes, not axioms.
"...(Pragmatic capitalists like me look at outcomes, not axioms..."
So, under the cover of 'pragmatism' and a bogus claim of being libertarian, you only want to pick half of my pockets and plan half of the economy?
Are you stupid enough to imagine we haven't heard that bullshit before?
Stop lying, peasant. Where have I advocated for these measures? I have not, and do not.
Are you going to pretend that you're a libertarian like Rand Paul, btw?
Stop lying, lefty shitpile; anyone promoting FDR as superior to Trump can lay no claim to anything like libertarianism.
The fascist douche pops up with more garbage. There are many reasons to criticise FDR, but he was not the crazed corrupt authoritarian scumbag that Trump was. And take for example the RTAA - clearly pro-market legislation of the type that Trump disapproved of (and wouldn't understand) and libertarians would approve of.
Anyone defending Trump in absolute terms can't be a libertarian of whatever colour, of course.
It marginally surprises me that so many right-wing grievance warriors are posting here, more surprising that they are so lacking in self-perception that they think they're libertarian in any way shape or form. I'd understand an intelligent far-right poster coming on here to argue against the rest of us for entertainment value or intellectual pleasure, just as I'd understand an intelligent far-left poster doing the same thing. But to come on here and not merely pretend to be a libertarian but actually think you are - that's some Rand-Paul-level self-deception bullshit.
It marginally surprises me that so many right-wing grievance warriors are posting here, more surprising that they are so lacking in self-perception that they think they're libertarian
It's revealing the very same people who whine that others claim they are leftists feel free to assert others aren't libertarian. This is what I call left wing privilege. Since the far left controls our institutions left wingers are used to never concerning themselves with principled arguments or consistency. They know whoever controls the messaging will always grant them an exception. So it never occurs to them they need to live by the standards they apply to others.
Yes, SRG: you do.
Imagine being so goddamn historically ignorant that you say something like this.
Income inequality concerns are not a proxy for communism.
Of course they are.
but almost no-one is advocating for seizing the means of production, and that really is a major requirement,
Not really. Democrats believe government should have vote power over effectively any business decision, which is the power they granted the CFPB. Luckily the courts prevented this effort to set up an unaccountable bureaucratic czar, but the Dems underlying principle is clear. If you control a business what need is there to seize it? Call is Neo-socialism if it makes you feel better, but it ends up in the same place.
there is abundant evidence that too high a level of income inequality is harmful to an economy.
First, "too high" is not the claim, the claim is simply income inequality.
Second, some country will always be "too high" since it is determined comparatively, which means everyone's turn will always be around the corner until everyone is equal.
Third, since there are many ways to compute inequality one will always give the answer activists want. For example right now the US is middling in income inequality after taxes and welfare. Because of this activists, including yourself, cite the pre-transfer status to justify their assertions even though that is obviously not the relevant comparison.
Pragmatic capitalists like me
Sure, who internalize and act on leftist propaganda.
"...Call is Neo-socialism if it makes you feel better, but it ends up in the same place..."
Pipes "Russian Revolution" traces the timeline ofLenin's move from what passed for 'capitalism' under the Czar to full-blown communism (which then was temporarily reversed once the damage was recognized).
Read Tooze "Wages of Destruction" and you will find a similar template for gradual state takeover of industry.
Our newest lefty troll seems 'unlettered', shall we say, much as turd continues to both deny "state socialism" and "international socialism" are not co-equal communism, and that TDS is other than an idiotic focus on personality.
First, "too high" is not the claim, the claim is simply income inequality.
Not anywhere in mainstream American politics.
Second, some country will always be "too high" since it is determined comparatively, which means everyone's turn will always be around the corner until everyone is equal.
Where is it determined comparatively? The GINI index - the best known - is a comparative index within a country, but is not comparative across countries. You're just pulling shit out of your arse.
You're evidently unaware of actual research on this , e.g., Trends in Income Inequality and its Impact on Economic Growth . This suggests you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
The GINI index - the best known - is a comparative index within a country, but is not comparative across countries. You're just pulling shit out of your arse.
Stupidly wrong. The complaint is that America has a worse Giini than European countries (even though this is not true after transfers, which you and other leftists ignore because you know it proves you wrong). If America does change activists will focus on other countries, or more likely change the calculations, so inevitably America will again be "worse".
The entire statistic was developed as a way to maintain complaints even when people are becoming better off.
Link source:
"OECD iLibrary is the online library of the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) featuring its books, papers, podcasts and statistics and is the knowledge base of OECD's analysis and data."
Listed as an NGO, but in the same way the UN is an NGO; that is to say an 'intergovernmental agency', of which the US is the outlier to the right (hard as that may be to believe).
IOWs, it supports a largely EU view of economics: Get the US to provide defense, hand out free shit to your population, and then criticize the US for not handing out free shit to its population.
You'd think someone claiming libertarianism would make that clear in a cite, would you not?
“Pragmatic capitalists”
Shrike?
You know, only a little bit pregnant.
Klaus Schwab, Bill Gates, and Justin Trudeau are Jewish? CRT = civil rights? Christianity has no influence on western legal traditions?
I really have learned something.
Why bring up the Jewish angle? Yes, many Jews immigrating from Russia and Eastern Europe had a bias towards socialist, secularism, and zionism (in my own extended family) but a progressive isn't defined by religion but by a deep hatred of liberty and need to social engineer. This is why they love the DIE ideology..it gives them the social outcomes they desire...
And the globalism (wilsonian nation building) and crony corruption (grifter NGOs running govt programs that have NO market demand) is how they enrich themselves while forcing their world on the rest of us..
That you're a leftist? Yes. You have that right.
FWIW I am routinely called a leftist by Trump-supporting friends and other far-right types, notwithstanding my strong support for capitalism and my general dislike for socialism. The perils of being a David-Brin-type libertarian (pragmatic and reality-based, poor us...)
I know, right?
There is only one permitted type of libertarian around here, and that is the Ron Paul libertarian. Everyone else is a 'leftist'.
Stick around here for a while.
All of us who won't fellate Donnie Boy are called leftists or communists.
Ayn Rand, who campaigned against Ronald Reagan and would certainly despise Trump, would be called a communist here.
No, you're just a hicklib pedophile who deserves the Full Rosenbaum.
Man. All the leftists got triggered by a simple declaration.
It’s kind of funny actually.
It’s because of your leftism.
FWIW I am routinely called a leftist by Trump-supporting friends and other far-right types, notwithstanding my strong support for capitalism and my general dislike for socialism.
LOL at this goonfiction.
Leftists have literally 0 credibility.
They are at best completely psychotic, or calculated yet habitual liars.
In the end it doesn't really matter which - they are pathologically dishonest, and unworthy of consideration or respect.
"FWIW I am routinely called a leftist by Trump-supporting friends and other far-right types, notwithstanding my strong support for capitalism and my general dislike for socialism. The perils of being a David-Brin-type libertarian (pragmatic and reality-based, poor us...)"
Perhaps that's because you are a TDS-addled lying pile of lefty shit, and you get called on it.
Or perhaps because you and RRWP are crazed Trumpsuckers
Only in your fervidly ignorant imagination can one be more right-wing economically than Trump - and be a leftist.
"Or perhaps because you and RRWP are crazed Trumpsuckers"
TDS addled piles of shit like you keep making claims which sound good, and yet every time you post any specifics, you're in danger of capsizing to port.
Let's start with this:
Which, among the last 100 years of POTUS, has been superior to Trump, in *specifics* and by the *total effect* of that POTUS actions?
I'm listening and claiming:
You.
Are.
Full.
Of.
Yourself.
And.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
FDR, Eisenhower, Reagan, GHWB, Clinton, Obama, for a start.
Trump merely rode Obama's economy, but expanded the deficit which had been contracting at the back end of Obama's admin, fucked up the Covid response, sucked off Putin, tried to overthrow a legitimately lost election...
So fuck off, basically.
The irony with Trump is that he actually identified some serious issues before he became president, and then did fuck all about them because he was an incompetent and lazy demagogue.
But sure, keep pretending that you can be a Trumpsucker and a libertarian.
You're just another white grievance warrior. Sad, as Trump would say.
"FDR, Eisenhower, Reagan, GHWB, Clinton, Obama, for a start."
So, IOWs, you're a lying pile of lefty shit.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Trump merely rode Obama's economy,
Another left wing idiot. The Trump economy worked because Dems like Warren whose only life mission is to figure out how to damage businesses didn't have a hotline to the white house. Just not fucking things up is a huge advance.
You're just another white grievance warrior.
Again we see fake libertarians resort to the assertion anyone who opposes the left is a racist. That's what makes their whining about being called names so amusing.
Pretty sure our newest lefty asshole is going to start a 'libertarians for FDR' chapter in his hometown.
Starts off with FDR… hahahahahahahahahahahaha
Gee, guess that was too difficult for you? TDS does that to the brains of assholes.
Seems the TDS-addled lefty shit SRG has a hard time supporting SRG's claims as opposed to SRG's revealed preferences. Is anyone surprised?
How do you say Itchy & Scratchy Show in Hungarian ?
Primarily, you're just ignorant.
I just listened to an interview with Brin: he's a progressive, whether he realizes it or not, and his understanding of economics and history is somewhat lacking.
Yes, the left is thoroughly evil. Thanks for finally acknowledging that fact.
Do you think the right is thoroughly evil?
I think you're thoroughly evil.
You didn't answer the question.
Do you think the right is thoroughly evil?
I don't give a rip about your question. That would involve taking your leftist-apologizing ass at face value.
It's not "unfair", it is factually wrong.
It is progressives who are both fascists and communists, the two ideologies having effectively merged post-WWII in the West.
As Michael Horowitz would allow me license to say, “inside every progressive liberal is a Marxist trying to get out.” At their core, their telos, they revolve around the same animating force: perfecting society under a utopian vision through political power by an intellectual elite. The show trials and Title IX kangaroo courts on college campuses are practice grounds for the later gulags and re-education camps. Does anyone have trouble imagining Bernie Sanders in charge of a Red Brigade or firing squad after social chaos ensues from his economic program? Do conservatives have their own religion? Yes, free markets, nationalism and traditional culture - but they are the antidotes to political power deployed to liberal utopia.
Correct, savage truth
https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html
The Trump Cult is 14 for 14 on traits of fascism:
Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .
Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
Do they control the media? No, but they want to.
man about half of those are tenets of the progressives now...control of corporate HR departments to push DIE, using military on domestic political enemies and for global interests, rejection of science (evolution produced two animal sexes), and I could go on. Watch libs of tik tok for the bolshie crazies. progressives are a existential threat to liberty and should be deported (a time machine would be great to Vienna or Berlin 1922 or the old USSR).
I have no patience for Trump and his ilk but the real threat is the left...
Of course it is. Always has been. We see over and over again around the world. This is why the only good Marxist is a dead Marxist.
See, this is how I know you people are liars.
The pro-tranny crowd that talks about gender fluidity is tiny. They are even a minority in the LBGTQ community.
Compare with the rabid anti-science of conservatism - anti evolution, anti climate science, anti-data, all by at least 50 million Young Earth fundie nuts.
Not even close.
The pro-tranny crowd that talks about gender fluidity is tiny. They are even a minority in the LBGTQ community.
If this were true trans nonsense wouldn't control the education systems and media. This is how we know you're either an idiot or an ally trying to protect them. Are you an idiot?
Compare with the rabid anti-science of conservatism - anti evolution, anti climate science, anti-data, all by at least 50 million Young Earth fundie nuts.
Compare to the hicklib pedophile's posting of kiddie porn links and getting banned for it.
I believe in the spirit of generosity which means granting the best interpretation of someone's words. In my opinion it's better to be a leftist ally than an idiot, and since you're disputing the idiot option I'll take this as confirmation.
Not a leftist folks.
If this were true trans nonsense wouldn't control the education systems and media.
You want to know why schools are developing "Gender Support Plans" and the like to accommodate transgender students?
https://www.oyez.org/cases/2019/17-1618
In that case, discrimination against sex was found to include discrimination against gender identity and sexual orientation.
So the government is enforcing the long-standing rule that schools that receive federal money are prohibited from discriminating against protected categories. Which now includes transgendered individuals.
So if you want someone to blame why schools are trying to accommodate transgender students, blame SCOTUS.
Better to blame leftists for their standard exploitation of liberalized tolerance to push their own repressive tolerance.
Well of *course* you are going to pursue the narrative of "the other tribe is to blame" than actually take a look at reality.
What is wrong with simply pursuing liberalized tolerance for all?
A person can be a transgendered individual and not be a deviant pedophile.
A person can be opposed to transgenderism without being a horrible bigot.
What is so wrong with this position? Hmm?
If you're arguing for it, it's the wrong position.
What is wrong with simply pursuing liberalized tolerance for all?
This.
While I am obviously not very PC ("tranny" is not PC) I can see a path for tolerance.
I am a determinist. Wow, do conservatives hate us determinists.
If the roll of the genetic dice comes in "gender confused" please let me get out of the way and hope for the best for that person. They will need it.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. Turd is a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental. If he included numbers they are either out-right lies or cherry picked such that if used by an honest person, they would prove the opposite of what turd is claiming
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Eat shit and die, asshole
Youre not arguing for tolerance. Youre arguing for forced acceptance and participation in lies. Fuck off groomer.
Sdsu had their latest training materials released which again listed hiding trans behaviors from parents and teaching kids what semen tastes like.
Stop defending grooming.
Right, trans nonsense has infected all left wing institutions including government and law. This was primarily accomplished through the left's control of education and media, including law schools.
Let's revisit the actual claims though. Now left's defenders are claiming trans extremists control the legal and governmental systems in addition to education and media, and this somehow proves trans extremists are a tiny minority. It's doesn't make a lot of sense when you lay out the full framework.
They're so eager to attack they can't even understand they are contradicting their own assertions. This is what happens when you argue against teams rather than principles, grasping at whatever justification helps the current attack. This is also how you identify dishonest commenters and trolls.
Yes, a bad law and an absurd ruling.
I can assure you that shrike is the dumbest motherfucker to post here.
"...See, this is how I know you people are liars..."
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Did you just admit to the pro tyranny anti science crowd and then yell anti science to the other side?
Tranny*
"The Trump Cult is 14 for 14 on traits of fascism:"
TDS-addles shit piles are 20 for 20 on traits of brain death.
Fuck off and die, turd.
Gotta point out that, like turd's links, the above is loaded with claims (most of which are bullshit) and laughably lacking in cites.
Way to go turd!
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Nice choice of sources. A far left website.
So do tell.... What *IS* the difference between progressive liberals and communists? When's the last time progressive liberals didn't want MORE communism??
Bela Kun....
The idea that after internal communism bit the big one, marxists (including cultural) continued the fight from Academia, the Media, Entertainment, Govt, and corporate hr departments is hard to dispute. The DIE and pedo push taking hold are substituting class for tribal/sexual preference/ethnicity war. As an American of Italian ancestry (in middle age), the hatred of "whitness" (whatever that is), endless screaming about "racism" when one tribe doesn't get what they want (of course when they are overrepresented..it is always ok unless you are "white"), and an irrational focus on old world grudges is reality. Progressives are attacking the Bill of Rights (1st, 2nd, 4th) daily, they seek to make govt a tool of repression, ensure the private sector punishes "white males" for thought and merit.
There is no difference between communists and progressives..same types of folks..those that hate liberty. I don't honestly care about if a progressive is Jewish or Christian..either way they are threat to freedom. America is not the ground for either group to settle old world grudges either. Most of that is from the left anyway.
If the mainstream left got its way and ran the country for say 10 years, what do you think America would look like?
Do you really think it would be a Marxist communist dystopia?
I'll tell you what I think it would look like: it would look a lot like Western Europe. Last I checked, it's not full of gulags. It's not great, but it's also not hell-on-earth either.
If the mainstream left got its way and ran the country for say 10 years, what do you think America would look like?
Portland.
No, Portland is pretty far to the radical left side of things. Not the mainstream left.
Portland is the mainstream left now. You just don't want to admit it.
Portland is pretty far to the radical left side of things. Not the mainstream left.
Which is irrelevant of course, on the left the extremes control the result. Decades of their No-Enemies-To-The-Left policy has ensured the most extreme ideas are implemented, which is abetted by the fact that the extremes control their institutions.
We're witnessing proof of this with CRT, cancel culture and trans hysteria. Even normal Democrats don't agree that expecting people to show up on time, have a positive attitude, and have a sense of urgency is white supremacy. But normal Democrats don't decide policy. Those who control institutions do, and that group is far left of the population.
When Democrats win the radical left wins as the Title IX fiasco has proven.
on the left the extremes control the result
Which is why we have President Bernie Sanders, right?
Which is why progressive San Francisco recalled their progressive DA, right? Because the 'extreme left' has total power?
Which is why we have President Bernie Sanders, right?
It's interesting, but completely unsurprising, you always focus on irrelevancies. You have to since the relevant factors don't support your beliefs.
Could leftists have passed legislation creating a shadow legal system devoid of basic due process? Yet we got exactly that from supposed moderate President Obama. It is true when regular people have a chance to weigh in they express less support for the far left. But as we saw with Title IX even after the radicals are removed the policies are not returned to the previous position. In fact the policy moved quite far left despite the opposition of the overwhelming percentage of Americans. This is exactly why the beliefs of the average Democrat aren't relevant.
the 'extreme left' has total power?
Note the strawman. In fact America is springing left. The bureaucracy mandates new law based on their whims. Our institutions openly reject the previous bedrock principle of equality in favor of racial discrimination and essentialism, which they defend by scapegoating half the country. But jeffey thinks that as long as one single non-leftist exists this must not be happening.
Sanders is an old white male with rather traditional beliefs; not radical enough for the current generation of American leftists.
Nobody has asserted that the left has "total" power. But the extreme left has taken over the Democratic party, and they are certainly trying to obtain "total power".
If the mainstream right got its way and ran the country for say 10 years, what do you think America would look like?
Wyoming.
Saudi Arabia.
Very religious. Very little tolerance for other lifestyles.
Oil economy. Knowledge economy would die.
Christian madrassas would be everywhere. Memorize the Bible.
All the Christian madrassas would be taxpayer funded via "vouchers".
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental. If he included numbers they are either out-right lies or cherry picked such that if used by an honest person, they would prove the opposite of what turd is claiming
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Yes, it would be like rewinding the clock 150 years, when the USA was exactly like that. This is known.
Hopefully, we're going to find out soon.
it would look a lot like Western Europe.
No.
The most obvious impact of leftist control would be their imposing political litmus tests on essentially everything: students, well paid jobs, educators. Only those willing to parrot leftist beliefs will advance, and political reliability will replace competence as the top qualification everywhere as it already has in government, media, and education. In fact this has been happening for decades. As soon as the left's march through the institutions proved successful in the 70s and 80s they began political discrimination and now they are moving to a new level with the most leftist controlled institutions requiring political loyalty oaths and installing political officers. It's funny we used to mock the Soviets for their political officers and Lysenkoism and we're watching them recur here as DEI Directors and Modern Monetary Theory. All of this has the full support of many who pretend to be libertarians though, so that's a relief.
The American left is far more vengeful than Europe's. I suspect this is because it's been harder to take over so their demonization tactics had to be more extreme. So we don't just have different ideas, we're Nazis. Regardless of why we're going to resemble Latin American leftism much more than we are European. We already see economic retribution and normalization of widespread hatred.
More importantly, the American left is far more corrupt than European politicians.
the American left is far more corrupt than European politicians.
And incompetent, though these are related. People whose sole focus is how to steer government funds to their brothers (Hi Frank!), kids (Hi Hunter!), and friends (Hi Cheryl!) can't also spend that effort learning how to administer effectively. Plus in order to win the left had to convince their acolytes these jobs were stolen from them, so workers believe they are entitled to them as a form a restorative justice rather than in exchange for work. Hiring people on the basis of political loyalty rather than competence reinforces that belief.
This is another reason we'll resemble Latin America more than Europe. European governments care about competence, ours, like Latin America, only cares about political loyalty.
This. Leftist control would look like a unitary system as appears in most universities now. They are openly going after peoples jobs for wrong think. 600 arrests for improper protesting while violent protesting was celebrated for 2 years. Erc etc.
Jeff is in complete denial despite all evidence he is given constantly.
not denial... you are being too gentle.
He is a gaslighter
No, it would not. Most of Europe is far less socialist than American Democrats. And European politicians are more competent and far less corrupt than American Democrats. No European politician would be permitted to accumulate hundreds of millions of dollars in wealth as a result of their offices, like Obama, the Clintons, the Pelosis, and the Bidens have done.
If the mainstream American left got its way and ran the country for 10 years, the US would end up looking like one of the basket cases of Europe, but without a big brother Germany to bail it out.
"I'll tell you what I think it would look like"
Nothing matters less, chemjeff Stalinist pedophile
I mean just 600 political prosecutions going on in d.c. at the moment. Which you support as a Capitol offense.
Progressive liberals aren’t communists in the same way conservative republicans aren’t Nazis: fine, but don’t be surprised when the histrionics that goes around comes around.
Considering Nazi is an acronym for National Socialism... Nazism is practically the equivalent to communism short of bill-of-deed details.
Pretty sure the better word for conservatives on a power trip would be puritans.
I'm sorry, but that's wrong.
Some conservative Republicans may be theocrats, authoritarians, and protectionists, but they are literally on the opposite end of the political spectrum as Nazis.
The sad fact is that progressives, socialists, communists, fascists, and Nazis are all closely related: they are all collectivist, anti-capitalist, authoritarian ideologies, with minor differences between them.
The way in which conservatives are not Nazis is that they are diametrically opposed to each other.
The way in which progressives are not Nazis is a small difference of degree.
“Only in China, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba have communist parties retained their monopoly on power. “
North Korea on line 1 with another missile test!
Given China's size and power, this statement reads like something from the late lamented Mayor-for-Life of Washington, D.C.:
“Outside of the killings, DC has one of the lowest crime rates in the country.”
― Marion Barry
A "progressive liberal" is just a progressive who is pretending to be liberal.
And progressives, indeed, are just a kind of communist; more specifically, they are neo-Marxists.
Viktor Orbán is LITERALLY Admiral Horthy!
(Am I the first to play that card?)
Technically yes, but they've already mentioned the Arrow Cross.
Around 2006 a movie, based on true events, came out about the Communist secret police during the Cold War titled “The Lives of Others.
Due to it’s timing, many historically educated viewers believed it was a warning to Bush Republicans at the time - for Republicans to stop acting like Communists and Authoritarians. Contrary to everything America stands for.
Back then Bush officials misled the voters about the “worst of the worst” being detained in Guantanamo’s gulag. The movie was a warning for Americans not to adopt Communist style blacklisting.
Since then almost 90% of the “worst of the worst” have been released without any charges whatsoever. Today in 2022 we still have over 1 million persons blacklisted by the U.S. government and federally-funded “Fusion Centers” located in every state (usually operated by your State Police).
This communist style blacklisting system - designed for 9/11 suicidal terrorists - was then exploited by some state FCs to blacklist African-American college students at all black colleges, LGBT Americans and non-violent environmental rights groups. None of these groups have ever advocated violence and have no link to any crime or wrongdoing whatsoever - much less 9/11 terrorism.
Since this is a covert blacklisting program - exceeding 7000 consecutive days of blacklisting torture (akin to Chinese Water Torture) - judges are completely cut out of the loop. Judges have the legal jurisdiction and top duty to provide “constitutional judicial review” (ie: Marbury v. Madison, Fletcher v. Peck). Those 1 million plus individuals have no process to be removed from these blacklists, many not even aware of it.
Biden and the Democrats could abolish the GOP’s communist practices with a simple 51% vote and overturning Bush’s unconstitutional preemption policies.
[Source material: National ACLU obtaining government records dating back to October 2001 - using the government’s own records].
"...Biden and the Democrats could abolish the GOP’s communist practices with a simple 51% vote and overturning Bush’s unconstitutional preemption policies..."
Or, shits like you could quit lying about the GOP.
The left is only more libertarian (traditionally) on social issues.
But lately they are delving into social engineering and interference in personal life and associations.
This article is disturbing in its effort to demonize Orban, not so much by criticizing his speech at CPAC, but more for his domestic policy decisions and actions.
Yeah, they are trying to forcefit something that is not quite true.
I tried to hook in and wrap my head around what Welch is trying to say here, all I got was I don't Orban's perspective on things.
This is not an honest article.
The left is opportunistic: that's why socialists and fascists tend to support (for example) homosexuality before the revolution; once in power, they become viciously anti-gay; examples: progressive 20th century America, socialist Eastern Europe, and fascist Germany.
How to be a leftist according to the Trump-suckers here
1. Are you generally opposed to tariffs?
2. Do you favour generally free markets?
3. Do you generally disapprove of state ownership of the means of production?
4. Do you think Trump was a great president?
If you answered "no" to #4, according to the Trump-suckers, you're a leftist regardless of how you answered #1 to #3. This is because they have such a limited political vocabulary and conceptualisation they can only think in purely binary terms - pro-Trump, and leftist. Hence Liz Cheney (and her dick father Dick) are leftists as well.
If the facts supported your claim you wouldn't have to make up stupid shit.
Cope, seethe, and dilate.
"How to be a leftist according to the Trump-suckers here..."
Corrections for our newest le3ft shit:
'How to be a leftist according to those who can read
1. Post leftist drivel, claim FDR was a wonderful POTUS and get called on your bullshit
1. Are you opposed to adding Communist Manifesto plank 2 to then-existing tariff laws and the Constitution (as 16A)?
With that change the message is even better. There was another leader whose minions lumped all opposition into Bolshevik Jewry. He said: If we one day achieve power, we will hold onto it, so help us God. We will not allow them to take it away from us again. Hitler 17OCT1932
TDS-addled piles of lefty shit continue to pop-up spouting bullshit like this:
SRG
August.6.2022 at 3:40 pm
"...There are many reasons to criticise FDR, but he was not the crazed corrupt authoritarian scumbag that Trump was..."
1) Now, Trump is a NY RE developer; you have to presume at least payoffs to city officials, and certainly some questionable IRS reporting; he was investigated for his entire term by most every investigative agency outside of, oh, the local courts in Snake's Navel, ID for the entire time he was in office. What did they find?
Well, several people who knew Trump and worked for him at one time or another were found to have unpaid parking tickets and fines for late book returns at the library.
And yet lying piles of shit continue to blatantly lie about it; even Tony, that serial liar, has given up on that.
2) Trump was so "authoritarian" he did his best to avoid mask mandates, for instance, did his best to at least slow the growth of regulations, and appointed those like Besty De Vos, who attempted to reduce the egregious applications of Title IX.
3) He was "crazed" which says far more about SRG, a fucking TDS-addled pile of lefty shit than it does about Trump.
And all of this to support that criminally-negligent, tin-pot-dictator-wanna be, FDR.
And the asshole isn't a lefty! No indeed!
To Kleptocracy fanatics, anyone who does not wholeheartedly support the Anschluss, that is, the Invasion of the Pussy-Grabbers at Reno, is a traitor to the MAGA gag-a-maggot movement.
My competitor Theda Scocpol has an interview up on Choob and a book out on how Tea Party rednecks bone up on Roberts Rules so as to take over existing associations. It's the playbook for the Trumpanzee Anschluss that now guarantees that just about every woman voter will use her ballot to gut the LP like a dead fish.
Thanks TDS-addled pile of shit!
SRG
August.6.2022 at 3:40 pm
"...Anyone defending Trump in absolute terms can't be a libertarian of whatever colour, of course..."
This from a lying pile of lefty shit who defends FDR as preferable to Trump, and claims to be libertarian. Does Brandyshit have a new sock?
See directly above, asshole.
There is very little difference between a communist and a progressive. They both seek to gain control over the individual. They both use propaganda and brainwashing. They both use certain groups as oppressed victims of another group designated the oppressor.
They both believe they and they alone have the power to decide what's best for everyone else.
They both seek total domination over the individual. Neither believes in individual rights or freedom of expression.
Furthermore progressives are largely responsible for the condition of blacks in America by keeping them on the plantation, by convincing blacks that no matter what happens it's always the fault of white supremacists and systemic racism. Progressives are largely responsible for the failures of inner city schools, the destruction of the black family and never ending welfare generations.
If capitalism trumps communism, how did communist China rise up out of abject poverty 40 years ago? They "allowed" a little private property? How, when, where, to what degree? Yes, they did, but the devil is in the details. And, how did the reverse in the US Empire express itself? Does that make the US fall from 1st place behind China, communist? Or, China capitalist? Can we toss around these labels without definition? Can we agree that both nations are a mix, economically, but both are authoritarian/collectivist, politically?
Most of all, can we stop quoting politicians as if they are worthy of our trust, or our obedience? Boycott all of them, their dictates (law).
Stuff your "both sides" bullshit up your ass, you ignoramus.
China has done to the world what The Kleptocracy did to the LP. It exports its most rabid communo-fascism to places like North Korea. The Kleptocracy sheds its anarcho-fascists (Robert Dear and Dave Smith come to mind) and anarcho-comunists (Hummel, Henchman, Richmond and Zippy Spikehead) and offloads them onto the LP as Trojan horse infiltrators, fifth columns and agents provocateurs. This is exactly what FDR warned against 26MAY1940 while Klan, Bund, Silvershirt, Christian Front and Nazi conservatives frothed against him.
Welch is such an amateurish hack. First, in listing the extant communist states he manages to leave out North Korea. Then he claims that Reagan is like a communist simply because he used "the wrong side of history" comment. Then after mocking Orban's claim that there are 15 million Hungarians by asserting there are only 10 million he concludes his article by stating there are 15 million. But worst of all he never addresses, much less supports, the headline to his piece that it's a "lie" to compare Leftist Progressives to Communists.
I dont know what's going on at Reason. It's like they have no editors working there.
Editors for what, journalistic truth? Hahaha.
Where does that exist in this society of bigoted propaganda?
Yes, communists are a lot nice people than today' authorization, repressive, constitution hating "woke" progressive liberals of today.
I'll bite. He may not be a good guy but how was he wrong?
"Only in China, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba have communist parties retained their monopoly on power."
So we've conveniently forgot North Korea and Russia?
Cracks me up that douche's like Welch probably cream themselves over USA racists like Ibram Kendi.
I would not say that the Democrat party in the USA is communist or even totalitarian, but they definitely have exposed their authoritarian tendencies.
While which party is a larger threat to our personal liberties changes back and forth, currently the Democrat party is the largest threat by a large margin. This is not to be confused with an endorsement of the Republican party. The Republican party also has some authoritarian tendencies.
Rather while performing a threat assessment the authoritarian tendencies of the Democrat party present as a much more serious treat to our personal liberties. The Republican party poses a risk, but not a threat at present.
Regarding racism, every human is capable of exhibiting racism including Christians, Muslims and atheists. Whether black, white or brown and even if they are Republican or Democrat.
In my experience (living in a deep blue state) the most racist people that I've ever met were hard core democrats. If I lived in a deep red state this might be different, but the assumption spread by the corporate media is that Democrats can't be racist.
This is just as ludicrous as Viktor Orban claiming that Christians can't be racist. But of course the corporate media does not call out the Democrats claims of being above racism, but rather promote the illusion that they are incapable of racism.
It may not be entirely true, but it is closer to truth than to fiction. The other half of the "altruism goood" spectrum is Jesus-chanting republicans who--to a man--deny that Adolf Hitler was a sacrificing Christian. Most here have never read a Hitler speech or read his Positive Christianity platform. Here: "In bringing about this reconciliation of the classes, directly and indirectly, we want to proceed in leading this united German Volk back to the eternal sources of its strength; we want, by means of education starting in the cradle, to implant in young minds a belief in a God and a belief in our Volk. Adolf Hitler, 10FEB1933" This is pure MAGA.
"Only in China, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba have communist parties retained their monopoly on power."
You could add North Korea to that list, and perhaps a few others. China alone has a population far larger than the former Soviet Union and all of its former satellite states combined. And China is far stronger, militarily and economically, than it was thirty years ago. Communism is far from dead.
Matt has gone woke, and doesn't see it, as evidenced by his focus on allegedly bigoted comments. Does Reason support Hungarians living in Ukraine the right to vote in Hungarian elections (which Hungary allows) like it seems to support illegals voting in US elections? That 15 million people figure, does refer to Hungarian speaking people, not just the 10 million living within Hungary, who are allowed to vote in Hungarian elections. Does Reason disavow US citizens living abroad (who have to pay US taxes as well as local foreign taxes, but I believe get a tax break for the foreign tax) from voting in US elections?
Welch's claim that "the Hungarian actually compared Reagan to communists" while technically true is disingenuous. Orbin was merely pointing out that while Reagan had the ability to pick out and identify evil empires, the Communists say the same things about countries with free minds and free markets for the express purpose of gaining power, usually appealing to that vice of envy.
As for "regional instability in the region" is it Hungary that put up walls to keep out illegal migrants causing the instability, or the folks pushing for open borders? Just look to the mayors of DC and NYC, who when confronted with a few thousand migrants bused to their cities, want to call out the National Guard to block busses of migrants from Texas where Biden refuses to secure the border, and after they declared themselves sanctuary cities welcoming migrants. Seems NYC and DC want a wall between them and Texas.
Further, how is the claim that "a Christian politician cannot be racist" different from the statement that "good moral people aren't racist"? Isn't Islam allegedly a religion of peace? The truth is many self-described religious people, are bigoted, including every one that thinks their religion is superior to every other religion.
Welch show contradictions galore, blinded by wokism and putting anti-bigotry and anti-racism before freedom. Here's a fact about freedom: it includes the right to believe bigoted things, because it's just speech. And like the kindergarten lesson about "sticks and stones can break my bones" also says "words can never hurt me." Which leads to a great thing about freedom of speech: it allows the bigoted to show themselves as bigoted, so we can avoid associating with them or voting for them via our freedom of association.
Matt, you need to prioritize your values putting freedom before anti-racism, which is nothing more than social pressure to agree with Democrats about their anti-racist (but in actuality racist) policies and the power they want to punish the "bigots" who don't agree with their political policies such as affirmative action, ESG in business, and DIE (diversity, inclusion and equity which is defined by them according to the political circumstance). You've fallen into the liberal trap of making bigotry something the government should deal with in people, rather than outlawing bigotry in government, and in laws enforcing bigotry upon us (e.g affirmative action, ESG, and DIE policies).