Dobbs Opened Up an Attack on Doctors
The Supreme Court decision overturning Roe has made bad law and bad medicine

Americans are rightly shocked by the news of a 10-year-old rape victim who had to cross state lines to lawfully terminate her pregnancy. The girl's home state of Ohio outlawed abortion in the wake of Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, the recent Supreme Court decision overturning Roe v. Wade. So the girl's doctors referred her out of state for the medical procedure that saved her from grievous physical injury and possible death. Making matters worse, the law-abiding Indiana doctor who performed the abortion had her judgment questioned by her state's grandstanding attorney general, who raised the specter of legal action against the doctor.
The whole sorry affair should remind us of one key reason why Roe was decided in the first place: to protect doctors.
It is a sad fact that some doctors will avoid providing essential medical care if the treatment in question is politically controversial. These doctors understandably fear that an overzealous prosecutor might use a vague law against them, just as Indiana's attorney general threatened to do here.
Doctors who deal in certain types of pharmaceuticals run the same risks. In fact, just three days after Dobbs, the Supreme Court actually enhanced the legal protections for doctors who prescribe opioids. In an ironic twist, the Court did so while effectively reviving a pre-Roe case that protected the medical privacy rights of abortion providers.
The opioid case is Ruan v. United States. Xiulu Ruan is a licensed practitioner authorized to prescribe opioid painkillers. Like many other doctors, he faced a cruel dilemma: Write too many prescriptions, and prosecutors might come knocking. To avoid unwelcome prosecutorial attention, doctors often ignore their own best medical judgment and leave suffering patients untreated. But Ruan wrote the prescriptions.
The Supreme Court ruled 9–0 in his favor but was split on the rationale. Writing for six members of the Court, Justice Stephen Breyer set up a framework for doctors and prosecutors to follow in these sorts of cases. First, doctors must show they are qualified to prescribe the drugs in question. Once they do that, the federal courts must presume that the doctors acted lawfully and responsibly. It is then the government's sole burden to prove otherwise.
Writing in concurrence, Justice Samuel Alito argued that the burden should have been placed on doctors to prove that their conduct was lawful and responsible, even if that requirement chilled legal medical care. Alito also denounced Breyer's sensible approach as a "radical new course." But Breyer's holding was neither radical nor new. The Supreme Court first adopted such a rule in the 1971 case of United States v. Vuitch.
Vuitch is an oft-forgotten precursor to Roe. At issue was whether the "life and health" exceptions to a D.C. abortion ban were unconstitutionally vague. The Court resolved the matter by adopting a doctor-friendly standard. First, doctors had to show that they were licensed medical professionals. Second, the "life and health" exception was interpreted to include the mental and physical health of the patient. Third, the government was forced to shoulder the burden of proof, demonstrating that the doctors had failed to act in good faith or in accordance with medical standards. The government also had to prove that the abortion in question was not necessary to protect the life or health of the woman.
As you may have noticed, this is essentially the same standard that Alito dismissed as a "radical new course" in Ruan.
There is something else notable about Vuitch. Writing in dissent, Justice William O. Douglas observed that whether medical treatment was for "life" or "health" was in the relevant doctor's best judgment, meaning that skeptical juries, swayed by an impassioned prosecutor, might still vote their morals rather than trust a doctor's good faith. That risk, coupled with the inherent vagueness of medical liability standards in general, could still chill lawful medical conduct. Douglas also pointed out that abortion bans with exceptions for the life of the woman, but not for her health, were facing legal challenges in Texas and other places. The Supreme Court would still have to deal with those types of laws.
Which it did. The day after Vuitch was decided, the Court agreed to review the Texas case, which became Roe v. Wade. Although this is sometimes forgotten today, Roe was a medical privacy case at heart. It was all about balancing the rights of doctors and patients with the social goal of reducing or eliminating abortions. Roe protected the private communications and decisions made between doctors and patients seeking a medical procedure.
The Dobbs decision obliterated those medical privacy protections by a narrow 5–4 vote. Yet by a 6–3 vote just three days later, the Supreme Court embraced the logic of Roe's most important predecessor (Vuitch) when it strengthened the medical privacy rights of doctors who prescribe opioids (Ruan).
This contradictory and confusing state of affairs is bad both for medicine and for the law, and it ought to be fixed as soon as possible. Whenever a poorly drafted statute is open to abuse by an overreaching prosecutor, the Supreme Court has the option of using the void-for-vagueness doctrine to strike down the offending law. The Court could also require that all abortion regulations conform to the doctor-friendly rules spelled out in Ruan and Vuitch. Particularly egregious laws, meanwhile, can be invalided by the courts for lacking a rational basis.
The Constitution provides firm procedural safeguards whenever the government interferes with life, liberty, property, or privacy. The Supreme Court needs to ensure that doctors still enjoy those safeguards' benefits.
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Pregnancy is not a life threatening condition.
When pregnancy occurs from repeated rape killing the helpless innocent baby isn’t justice.
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
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"Pregnancy is not a life threatening condition."
It can be under certain conditions.
So can inhaling, what's your point? Moloch must be fed?
You'd abandon capitalism if it was really about starving Moloch. You're just another black & gold shithead who thinks women are icky & must be controlled
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No, but it is wrong to murder babies.
No one is murdering babies.
(Kermit Gosnell has entered the chat)
A shallow, stupid and inaccurate comment at best!
Obviously, you are not well informed on women's health. Pregnancy is one of the most dangerous things that a woman will do in her life. History shows this danger and while the danger has lessened in recent history, it is still true that women die from pregnancy. It is also worth noting that the health of a pregnant woman is directly related to the level of prenatal health care she receives. Poor women get less health care and are the one affected by abortion bans exposing them to a doubt threat.
Pregnancy is one of the most dangerous things that a woman will do in her life.
Far less dangerous than riding in a car (11,000) or living with a man (2,000) or the flu (12,000-30,000), all of which take many more women's lives each year. Child birth about 700.
I was told Covid was the most dangerous.
Dude, get woke. Everything is the most dangerous. And everything is an existential crisis.
Perhaps you should look at a per-incident basis, however. Women will take hundreds of car rides per year, and be exposed to thousands of people who might have the flu, but simply can't carry a baby to term more than once in a year.
There are health factors associated with it. They're largely negated by proper pre-natal care and regular check-ups. But you don't have regular medical checkups every time you get into a car.
A more accurate measurement would be time spent. How many hours do you spend d in the car vs how many hours pregnant vs rate of injury.
Fair enough. Pregnancy has some unique risks. And it should be treated as such - prenatal care is key as you note. But isn't that an individual responsibility? Or maybe shared with the father .... if he is acknowledged (which is a big issue).
Life itself is the most dangerous. Life has a 100% death rate.
Prevent life! Oh, wait...
nobody is trying to ban seat belts....
I wonder how many single moms are killed by their boyfriends (who also have a bad habit of killing the kids who are not theirs as well)? More than die from childbirth? Time to outlaw single mom dating? I mean that would solve the boyfriend killing the kids or mom) right?
Obviously, you are not well informed on women's health. Pregnancy is one of the most dangerous things that a woman will do in her life.
Wrong.
There are roughly 7.5 billion reasons why this is wrong for human females and countless more when you include all females.
The correct answer is, 'pregnancy is the most necessary thing a woman will do in her life.'
I think attempting to get pregnant is most important.
Or the most fun, at least sometimes.
With you, right BigT!?
Well, the mask is off. It really is about controlling women.
Why don't we let women decide what the most important thing to do is?
Unrestricted abortion is fine, so long as you admit it makes you fair game too.
Any twisted argument to protect the sacrament of infanticide, right?
Yet it is not as dangerous as many routine jobs that men do daily in society. Women do have longer life expectancy than men.
It is also the most important thing most women ever do!!
If poor women get less care it is usually because they do not want the help offered as it often interferes with their poor life choices.
Between government and private help there is adequate help for the poor if they seek it out.
Wow. I don't think you could get more condescending or use more inaccurate, negative stereotypes of poor people if you tried. You excel at being a disgusting human.
"Two wrongs don’t make a right."
But three do.
It is sometimes and it is not that rare Rob.
How is that any of your business anyway?
Joe the Retard has entered the chat
LOL
Probably the same way Other People's Guns are your business.
I am in danger from the plethora of guns in America. Abortions do not endanger me.
You really needed that spelled out?
Youre also in danger from the plethora of cars in America i suppose? Dumb little crybaby.
But hey, i realized that you actually really lost the war on guns. With 44 million ARs in the hands of 24+ million Americans, gun owners are actually DOMINATING. And thats only for ARs alone, which are definitely common use items.
All gun owners have to do now is not to become complacent and fight the redundant battles in court to consolidate their complete winning position, decision by decision.
I feel your pain, loser.
Discounting life, even potential life, carries some risk, if only of setting precedent. First, fetuses. Next, clueless lefties.
In our civilization, protecting the vulnerable is everyone’s business.
The amount of ignorance in this post is amazing.
Read a book dumbass.
He's read about how the Joos lie. That's all he needs.
It actually matters which books you read!
I suspect that your reading list is very limited as to perspectives offered.
When facts seem to you as ignorance, maybe this means you should read more from the other side of most issues, as there are always two sides and forming your opinion while only knowing one side makes you the ignorant one.
There are a lot more than two sides to most issues. Apparently your brain can't handle more than a binary choice.
Sad
For a ten year old girl pregnancy is going to be a terrible experience with a significant chance of serious injury. Forcing a ten year old rape victim to have a child and suffer additional injury isn't justice either. Abortions aren't about justice. That's handled by the legal system and directed at the attacker, not the victim. If you want to punish someone for the abortion, punish her attacker.
Agreed, punish the attacker, not the attacker's child.
As far as we know, the attacker doesn't have a child.
Not any more.
I agree that abortionists should face homicide charges.
Given that 30% of pregnancies result in miscarriages at various times, you've got a lot of suspects to investigate.
Better get busy.
Do you expect to be taken seriously when you conflate dying of natural causes with homicide?
So if you take the baby to term but toss it in a garbage can to fend for itself, that's a-okay because it dies of natural causes?
This story is not simple. The doctor did not report the child abuse to authorities. Why not? The change of state is questionably necessary in the case of this 10 year-old. There are elements here that are not being revealed.
Except she did. Within the required period. It's publicly available. Many, many news orgatizations have reported the facts.
There is no conspiracy. There is a 10 year old rape victim who was pregnant. Yes, she exists. Yes, she was pregnant. Yes. She was raped.
Ohio has a six week ban with no exception for rape. Indiana has (had? Have they gotten medieval yet?) a 22 week limit, so it was completely legal there.
The Ohio doctor reached out tonthe Iniana doctor, who took the case. A legal abortion was performed. The abortion and the abuse were reported as required by law.
The end. Literally. There's no conspiracy. There's no "fake victim" or "crisis actors". It's exactly what it seems.
six weeks and six days? seriously? the doctor didn't know how long the girl was pregnant to the day. It isn't that exact. Reach your own conclusions but politics (the doc knew Roe was going down) could have had a lot to do with this...and the media just lapped it up as they are all pro abortion far left wokes..
Pick a one in 100 million situation to make your point is not very good or insightful.
The state she lived in officially said that their laws did NOT deny her an abortion, but you were not fed that fact by your choice of media, so you remained ignorant and A TOOL FOR THEIR CAUSE.
Sure, if you trust that the fanatics who passed such a draconian law wouldn't persecute someone who performed an abortion that wasn't in the black-letter area of the law.
It"s much easier to send the case across state lines to a place where it is clearly legal.
Not that clear legality has stopped the fanatics, led by the Indiana AG, from baselessly investigating (and releasing false information about) the Indiana doctor.
Now imagine it wasn't blantantly legal and the doctor didn't clearly and unambiguously have the law on her side in a state with a government hostile to abortion. Like, say, Ohio.
Like murdering millions of innocent Jews. Then you wanting to do it again.
That never happened, according to anti-abortionist Rob Misek.
I like to feed trolls truth they they can’t refute and laugh while you choke.
Lol schizoid sturmfag
Making a woman carry her rapist's baby (in formation) for nine months is an obscenity. Doing it to a 10-year-old-girl is (or should be) utterly unthinkable.
Counseling a young girl to unnecessarily murder a helpless innocent baby is worse.
THAT IS WHY NO ONE ACTUALLY WANTED THIS, AND THE STATE SAID THE LEFTIST MEDIA WAS LYING BECAUSE SHE COULD HAVE GOTTEN ONE AT HOME.
Sure. Do you believe in Santa Claus, too?
It can be in a 10 yr old.
Why the constant lie that abortions are ‘health care?’ Abortion is the killing of a potential life. We have many ways to prevent conception. You can’t complain that we need a replacement population, but use open borders with people that don’t share our values, and abort a whole race of people, blacks, with this form of eugenics. The zeal for abortions show why we treat each other as nothing more than animals. We kill with impunity, hate the laws, try to dismantle the constitution, and flood our country with other countries citizens, who we treat better than Americans. This is lunacy! If the mother’s life is in danger, we will do what is best for mom. That 10 year old was allowed to be raped by the mother. If Roe V Wade wasn’t overturned, she would be raped until adulthood. We should be thanking the decision. Now men will have to be more responsible!
The baby is a living human being, a person.
You try to dehumanize that person, calling them only “potential life” to deny that you advocate murder. Own it.
Men and women will be more responsible.
Around 700 women die each year in the United States as a result of pregnancy or delivery complications
And 60% of those are entirely preventable.
WITH the 4 million annual births in the US that makes the probability of death from pregnancy .00007.
Don’t be a slut and you won’t get pregnant.
Hello,
Such a informative and detailed article on Dobbs opened up an attack on doctors. You are doing some reasonably good work mate. For more info check here and read differnt openions from the experts on that.
Spam link, do not click. Dickhead.
So far the spam is more accurate than the article.
That can be said of the majority of the articles posted here.
I don't even read the articles. The comments have a higher rate of supporting their positions with links, solid arguments, etc. Of course there's a lot of crap too, but very little of it is worse than the articles themselves.
The whole sorry affair should remind us of one key reason why Roe was decided in the first place: to protect doctors.
Isn't the case supposed to be decided BASED ON THE LAW ??
It was based on the law and got a 7 to 2 decision. Better than the repeal's 6 to 3.
Read much? The sentence reads: it 'was decided ... to protect doctors'. My point, which flew over your head, is that it should be based on law, and citing other reasons is a canard.
Even RBG saw that Roe was bad law, although it was reasonable policy, IMHO.
We could just write a new law to protect doctors? Why didn't anyone ever explain this to us?
It's more fun to wear pussy hats to protests than to actually fix problems.
^ This.
You can't allow doctors and patients to make medical decisions. As soon as you let doctors use their professional opinions they stop doing The Right Thing (as determined by the Infallible Red States, backed by the coercive force of government). We can't have that.
I mean, a doctor might decide that the health of their patient requires them to not be pregnant. And that can't be allowed.
What law was Roe based on? They invented a very narrow Constitutionally protected right out of thin air. Either we all have a right to bodily autonomy and privacy in all aspects of our lives, or we don't. Saying that only women have those rights and only when they are getting an abortion is absurd. I'd love for there to be a Constitutionally protected right to those things for everyone, but as things stand, the repeal followed the law. Now it's up to Congress, which is unfortunately where it belongs.
If the SCOTUS had cited the 9th amendment they would have had a better argument.
"Either we all have a right to bodily autonomy and privacy in all aspects of our lives, or we don't. Saying that only women have those rights and only when they are getting an abortion is absurd."
and what do you say to those of us who don't see this as limited to women for abortion? i was against vaccine mandates, vaccine passports, and all that jazz too...... there is nothing more fundamental to freedom than control over your own body. abortion is not an exception, it is those who want to ban abortion that are trying to make it an exception.
" i was against vaccine mandates, vaccine passports, and all that jazz too."
I don't think you were.
i already knew you were an idiot. you are just too stupid to comprehend anything beyond red versus blue.
Poor fat fuck got caught lying, not realizing some of us remember the imbecile's constant whining a year ago about people not getting the vax or wearing the mask.
oh... i think you anti-vaxxers are complete fucking morons..... but i have always maintained that you have the right to be a moron. (i know that is a bit of an advanced concept for your dumb ass.)
sorry, dipshit..... you didn't "catch" anything. i really have always opposed government mandates and vaccine passports. the only one inconsistent, here, is you.
Fatass still doesn't realize what a transparent little midwit it is.
Poor fat fuck has no value.
your mom seems to think i have value.
Roe was bad legal reasoning. Even your sainted RBG said so. Now it’s gone, which is good.
My first thought too.
You fascist! In liberal land the guiding principle is protecting (selected) people. Evil attempts to constrain government by referring to abstract, universal law is why the Constitution must be abolished.
Isn't the case supposed to be decided BASED ON THE LAW ??
The statement, on its face, should get ENB laughed at. Not only is it painfully obvious that ENB doesn't give a shit about medicine or medical health professionals, but there's plenty of case law that shows what you're saying, SCOTUS will settle on the side of the law rather than medical science and/or expertise. This was pretty explicitly laid out in Bragdon v. Abbott.
Roe protected the private communications and decisions made between doctors and patients seeking a medical procedure.
By the same logic a person's right to privacy would keep a doctor from informing on a murder. There is no weight at all given to the life of the baby. IMHO, we should use the presence of continuous brain waves (15-20 weeks) as the threshold for determining a human life, just as we do for the end of life.
Or a doctor from informing on a parent raping a 4 year old.
This desired outcome of complete privacy involving children is not one im willing to blindly follow. And yes a fetus is a child.
Balancing of rights must occur.
"And yes a fetus is a child."
You are once again mistaking your personal opinion for fact. The fallacy is that a potential reality in the future is the same as the actual reality in the present.
The potential for survival before 26 weeks nears 0%, but the potential for survival at 40 weeks nears 100%. You want the former situation be treated as the latter. They are not the same.
It makes no difference whether you call it a fetus or a child, pro-life people believe it has the full rights of any human being.
Viability is also irrelevant.
Yes, you believe that. Believing it for yourself is a good thing. Legislating it for everyone else is a bad thing. Pretending it's a fact is a bad thing.
This is the fundemental problem with anti-abortion (and to a certain extent, pro-life) arguments. Your belief, no matter how strongly held, is not a reasonable basis for legislation that interferes with personal medical decisions, the doctor-patient relationship, and bodily autonomy.
You really don’t understand biological science. Leave the conversation to us adults.
And Nelson pretends not to have highly intrusive motivations for all other human interactions. Perhaps he can tell us his positions on everything from selling children into slavery to murdering one's spouse.
I am against selling children, murdering spouses and, most likely, every other unfounded accusation you wish to claim as true.
I oppose intrusive government force, which is why I am pro-choice. If anti-abortionists ever manage to come up with a logical, compelling, and factual case for abortion being an absolute evil, I would change my mind. But they haven't because they can't. It's just personal opinion, emotional attacks, fantastical reasoning, and magical thinking.
Lol this post is gold.
At what point does the developing fetus have an interest (keeping in mind that it is considered murder to unplug someone on a ventilator without their consent, even if they are not paying the power bill)?
When they are capable of existing as an independent, self-sustaining organism.
So about 26 weeks, depending on the fetus.
If an individual causes the death of a developing human, without the mother's approval, it is called murder, and the individual, who causes the death is punished.
It defies logic to claim that the same death, when the mother approves, isn't murder, and the killer is blameless.
Performing an abortion isn't like self-defense.
Is that an appeal to authority? I am not a biologist, but I do know that viability is a commonly used conceot in biology.
You may be a biologist, but your opinion doesn't overwhelm that of other biologists just because you want it to.
Plus bringing your personal, emotional beliefs to bear on a scientific concept is just bad science.
As I noted above, viability is not a sufficient standard in the case of adults, so why apply it in the case of a fetus?
"Sufficient" seems to be doing every bit of the lift in that sentence. Completely subjective, but lifting nonetheless.
Survival from gestation to birth requires the physical support of the pregnant mother. Survival from birth to at least a few years old requires the physical support of someone, most commonly the ex-pregnant mother.
None of these beings, from early stage fetus to toddler can survive on its own. You are trying to create an arbitrary and imaginary boundary.
It's not at all arbitrary. You just don't like it because it goes against your "it's a child!" bullshit.
And you don't like it because it goes against your "clump of cells" bullshit.
Like it or not, the biological truth is that once established in-utero, a fetus has a very high probability of becoming a person. This entity deserves some moral--and legal--recognition.
Trying for all or nothing determinations based on when you can remove a fetus and see if it survives on a table top is absolutely arbitrary.
Once established in-utero, a fetus has less than a 50% chance of becoming a person. A fertilized egg has only a 27% chance, plus or minus a few tenths.
"Trying for all or nothing determinations based on when you can remove a fetus and see if it survives on a table top is absolutely arbitrary."
It is the opposite of arbitrary. Arbitrary is saying that a fetus without a brain that can run its body or lungs to breathe should be considered a person. Arbitrary is saying a fetus without a heart has a heartbeat. Arbitrary is what anti-abortionists enthusiatically promote.
Getting figures from ipulleditoutofmyass, dot, com doesn't help your argument.
As for what chance an "established in utero" pregnancy has, try https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK532992/.
For clinically recognized pregnancies, it is in the order of 90%.
You're right. I was using data that was more optimistic. This study shows "[t]wo-thirds of all human embryos fail to develop successfully".
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/10/101003205930.htm
And this, "[a]fter simple adjustments for varying methods, existing data show that at least 73% of natural single conceptions have no real chance of surviving 6 weeks of gestation." Is found here:
https:// pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1970983/
There are a lot more papers you could read to educate yourself about how unlikely it is that an implanted fetus (never mind a fertilized egg) actually gets born. But you don't want to learn, you want to find something that supports your beliefs.
I'll bet you don't even know that when talking about fetal survival there are two different figures for "survival". One is the chance that a fetus is delivered alive and the second is the chance that a fetus that is delivered alive survives. Can you guess which one your number is? If you shrink the denominator by only counting those that survive delivery it's amazing how high the survival rate can seem. All you have to do is ignore a whole lot of fetuses.
So no, I don't pull numbers out of my ass. I not.onky find multiple sources, I try to understand *how* a figure is determined. You could put together valid statistics as well of you put in some effort. Bit it might challenge your beliefs, so tread carefully.
It doesn’t. Your understanding of this, like everything else, is stunted and ignorant. This is a product of your tiny mind. Which explains your bullshit leftist beliefs.
Ah, another favorite fallacy of the anti-abortion crowd. The false equivelence of the ability to survive, period, with the ability to survive without care and nurturing.
You know there's a difference. You just won't admit it.
Just like the moment of conception is an arbitrary and imaginary boundary too. It's all a continuum from gamete to adult. A few moments in the continuum are more interesting than others, but you can't ignore that it takes a lot more than merging DNA to make a person.
Just like the moment of conception is an arbitrary and imaginary boundary too.
Fertilization of the ovum is a lot of things, but it is neither arbitrary nor imaginary...unless you are completely and utterly ignorant about biology.
I believe he is highlighting anti-abortionist rhetoric about viability by using the same language in reference to fertilization.
Viability, like fertilization, is not an arbitrary standard. The only question is when that point is reached.
An egg has been fertilized as many as 5 days after sex, which makes fertilization imprecise, but not arbitrary.
Same goes for viability. When it is achieved for a specific fetus varies, but the standard doesn't change.
Fertilization is forced on someone only rarely. It is typically a voluntary choice. With consequences.
Getting prgnant when you are actively trying not to isn't irresponsible. No more than it's irresponsible to let your child be a Catholic alter boy. Or a Boy Scout. You know there's a very small possibility of bad things happening, but you do everything you can to prevent it.
Let's do a little though experiment.
In one locked room is a pregnant woman. In another locked room is a woman and her recently born infant. How will the outcomes differ if both women choose to terminate maternal support?
In the second after that support stops? The fetus will fail and the baby will sit there and do baby things.
You make my point. A pre-viability fetus cannot exist on its own. A baby can. You just can't admit this simple truth because all of your other fallacies are balanced on it.
We aren't talking about an extended period of neglect and you know it. We're talking about the ability to exist moment to moment.
The amount of bad faith in abortionist arguments is crazy.
Where is the bad faith? Claiming that the inability of a futus to survive for even an instant is the same as if a baby was neglected for days seems like a much more obvious case of bad faith. Claiming pro-choice means pro-abortion is bad faith. Claiming a one-in-four chance of becoming a person is the same as a 100% chance is bad faith. Talking about a procedure (IDX) that hasn't been performed for any reason other than medical necessity in over 15 years like it's a real thing is bad faith.
Anti-abortionists have nothing but appeals to emotion, propaganda, and bad faith. Pro-lifers are at least honest about the fact that there are grey areas regarding abortion.
So, please. Tell me what bad faith I'm engaging in. Be specific.
I can't wait til we can force dumbasses like you to give a kidney to keep someone else alive.
If you're arguing against women's autonomy then it can go right for you too asshole.
What autonomy? Women absolutely DO NOT have autonomy over their bodies. If you’re a woman go to your doctor and ask for a year Rx of opioids just because. Or go to the local pharmacy and try to buy 15 boxes of Sudafed. You think women have autonomy in those situations? They put your name on a fucking governmental list for OTC sinus medication. This autonomy you’re bleating about does not exist.
The only time this autonomy trope is trotted out is in defense of abortion. Tell me, shit for brains, what you think of putting women who have had abortions on a list for the government? Tell me about autonomy when it actually exists. This is another hyperbolic appeal to emotion, which is all your side has on this issue.
Two wrongs don't make a right. We all should have bodily autonomy. The issue with Roe was that it was hypocritical and inconsistent with the rest of established law, not that it was a bad idea. While we're at it, lets also start recognizing everyone's right to free association...
It also had no basis in the constitution. Which isn’t just whatever a progtard feels it is on any given day.
"What autonomy? Women absolutely DO NOT have autonomy over their bodies ..."
So if there are any exceptions to a right, that right doesn't exist? Since you can't make terroristic threats against others, people don't have the right to free speech? Because there are limits to religious expression people don't have the right to religious freedom? Because you can't organize a violent mob, people don't have the right to free assembly?
The idea that any limit to a right invalidates that right is false.
And the only hyperbolic appeal to emotion in the abortion debate comes from the anti-abortionists. Even the pro-lifers don't engage in that nonsense.
His point is that. A right has to exist outside of one specific circumstance to be a right and not an exception. Bodily autonomy under our current legal regime only applied to having an abortion, and even then the bodily autonomy of the child is being violated in that situation so it doesn't even really apply there.
Yet bodily autonomy is protected. There's a whole "without due process of law" part that people who don't think bodily autonomy is a right ignore. Cases where bodily autonomy is limited, like with other rights, have been adjudicated.
The presumption is that you have the right to make choices about your own body. Even the "vaccine mandates" weren't forced on anyone without their consent. The choices that were presented were constrained to and (in my mind), it crossed the line.
But they were much less intrusive than requiring someone to carry an unwanted pregnancy.
And bodily autonomy isn't only about abortion. It's just the most controversial and visible.
Nah, if you do that we’ll just finally get rid of you and your fellow travelers. So please, keep pushing.
You only exist because of our tolerance. Which has a limit.
Oh no! Teddy Toughguy wants everyone to know that he's a badass. And thatbthe willingness to perpetrate violence makes him the one who actually has power.
Might (or at least the willingness to violently suppress dissent) makes right.
Unless you mean that once your "tolerance" runs out you'll write a strongly-worded letter to your Senator. But somehow I doubt that's what you mean.
And tell me what act I deliberately chose to engage in that led to a "claim" on my kidney.
It's called personal responsibility. You should try it some time.
Personal responsibility is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?
Is it responsible to allow your child to be an alter boy/girl in the Catholic Church? Or go on a Boy Scout camping trip? Those could easily be called irresponsible.
Having protected sex when you don't want to get pregnant is personally responsible. The fact that it isn't a 100% guarantee doesn't make it irresponsible. Every day people do things that aren't 100% safe without being accused of irresponsibility. Why should sex be any different?
At the moment they will take your kidney only if you volunteered. The pregnant woman, in nearly all cases, volunteered to get pregnant.
No, some of them (by no means all) volunteered to have sex. Having their birth control fail was not what they volunteered for.
Did it protect the private communications and decisions made between doctors and patients seeking vaccination, or is that different?
That doesn't count. You could kill Jeff, Tony, and Lying Joe if you don't get triple vaxxed + 17 boosters.
Sounds good to me!
yes..... pull out a different straw man.
When you say "we", I assume you mean you and your wife, right? Stay the fuck out of my families business.
Now do mandatory vax.
Vaccines protect the public doofus.
From themselves? You clearly aren't an individualist by nature are you?
Not according to the FDA.
Hey, Joe. 2202 called and wants the official CDC statement about vaccine purpose back.
What fucking family? You lost Joe, Roe was overturned. Seethe some more clinger. Let the copium flow down your effeminate throat. Haha.
Just as disgusting as we expect from you lot.
Open wide, hicklib--you're about to get more of your repressive tolerance shoved down your throat at 3000 fps.
Keep your sex fantasies to your self please.
Joe advocates against vaccine mandates!
I mean, if you're pointing out his hypocrisy you might want to reflect on your own dumbass.
JFC- you people are fucking stupid as shit. "No vaccine mandate!' (which didn't happen anyway) and yet you're fine with making women slaves and taking control of their bodies.
Look in the mirror idiot.
Cope, seethe, and dilate, hicklib. Literally nothing your dumb fucking ass posted here is accurate.
really? tell that to all the military members who lost their careers because of forced injections. or tell it to all the private sector people who lost their jobs or were forced to take the drugs in order to save their careers. what rock do you live under?
It's a big rock painted MSM on all sides and most Americans are under it unfortunately.
My father, stepfather, father-in-law, and uncle all served, but I did not so I don't know the answer to this. They were required to get a whole lot of vaccines and medical treatments to be in the military. Has that changed?
the so called covid "vaccines" are very different. first they are not vaccines and do not function as vaccines, unlike the others you referred to. second these drugs are experimental and are causing many long term side effects. there is no medical need for any human being to take these drugs. period.
you're fine with making women slaves
Yes, it's true...most women become impregnated as a result of being rape by their owners. So sad.
Vaccine mandates protect the public idiot.
Vaccine mandates protect the public and are nothing new. You and your kids have lived with them your entire life.
Does that grasp for family privacy cover wife beating? Child abuse? Slavery?
So I should stay out of your family business if you want to murder your children? Yet you think you’re free to groom my kids at the government schools?
Fuck off, you sick pedo faggot commie piece of shit. I can’t wait until you dummies try to start a civil war with us. Them you and your fellow travelers will finally get what’s coming to you.
Get back on your medication dumb ass. Embryos and fetuses are not persons.
IMHO, we should use the presence of continuous brain waves (15-20 weeks) as the threshold for determining a human life, just as we do for the end of life.
This seems to be what most people actually think, but it's a lot more fun to draw battle lines and scream hyperbole at your opponents.
The whole sorry affair should remind us of one key reason why Roe was decided in the first place: to protect doctors.
Wut?
Methinks this chump is a tad naive.
JACOB LINKER is a writer living in the District of Columbia
Scratch that, he lives in a bubble.
Known libertarian Mecca, the District of Columbia.
Yes, I was going to ask where in Roe one finds the constitutional rights of doctors was discussed.
Again, if it exists in Roe, they didn't find it in Bragdon v. Abbott. The two together make it pretty clear that the law is "Fuck doctors. Women know better." which makes KBJ's trouble defining a woman all the more interesting.
Hi, Jacob, you're clearly new here. The comments will not be kind. The reason for this-since we're about reason here-is that you have factual inaccuracies right at the front of your article, and those factual inaccuracies seem to be offered in furtherance of your argument. That is, they don't appear to be good faith, they appear to be lies in order to advance the point you're making. Consider acknowledging facts that might be contrary to your point and actually addressing them, and why they don't disprove your point, instead of distorting them.
1) The girl did not have to cross state lines to get an abortion. The AG of Ohio has declared that the medical emergency standard would likely have covered that 10-year-old's circumstances.
2) Ohio did not make abortions illegal. Ohio restricted abortion, it did not outlaw them, and Ohio's law is specific to a detectable heartbeat.
The reason for this-since we're about reason here-is that you have factual inaccuracies right at the front of your article, and those factual inaccuracies seem to be offered in furtherance of your argument. That is, they don't appear to be good faith, they appear to be lies in order to advance the point you're making.
Jacob Linker will fit right in at TeenReason.
Sad but true. I remember when the writers occasionally dipped into the comments, but at this point, they clearly don't even read them.
If you saw your 2 hours of work putting tweets into your articles be so easily be disassembled in the comments, would you venture in?
A better fit at Vox.
1) Sure. She could have waited for a determination from the abortion-hostile Ohio government. Granted, that would have put her past the heartbeat-without-a-heart standard, but that's the sort of disingenuous manipulation that "crisis pregnancy centers" employ.
2) The argument that the severe level of restriction that anti-abortion forces are pushing aren't de facto bans is equally disingenuous. But that's par for the course.
1) Sure. She could have waited for a determination from the abortion-hostile Ohio government. Granted, that would have put her past the heartbeat-without-a-heart standard, but that's the sort of disingenuous manipulation that "crisis pregnancy centers" employ.
Evidence that you don't know what you're talking about. If she was denied an abortion, it's because she was ALREADY past the detectable heartbeat point, and the medical exception covers that case. You don't need a medical exception prior to a detectable heartbeat. And the doctor is the one that's supposed to know this, not the family, so he should have advised them better.
Beyond that, the reason to bring this up is that we're skeptical they went to a doctor in Ohio. If they did, the doctor is a mandatory reporter of rape, and a pregnant 10 year old means you absolutely should be asking questions. It's likely they went to Indiana because Dr. Bernard is a very motivated doctor unlikely to ask hard questions, and the mom wanted to cover up her boyfriend's rape of her daughter. If this Ohio doctor did exist, we'd probably know their name because they'd be charged with the failure to report the probable rape of the 10 year old.
2) The argument that the severe level of restriction that anti-abortion forces are pushing aren't de facto bans is equally disingenuous. But that's par for the course.
If you want to argue that the heartbeat bill is a de-facto ban, make that argument. Don't just tell people that abortions are banned in the state when that's a factual inaccuracy. It's my fucking point-you're more persuasive when you start of with the actual facts and offer your arguments against them, instead of factual inaccuracies that bolster your point.
Nelson chooses truth over facts.
He’s a very truthy guy.
"Evidence that you don't know what you're talking about ... so he should have advised them better."
First, not a heartbeat. No heart = no heartbeat. Second, I have no idea how long she had been pregnant, but since the earliest possible point is 4 weeks, it's pretty likely that she was either just before or just after the 6 week limit. If the first, she couldn't afford to wait for the fanatics to delay until afyer the deadline (a shameless, dishonest, and reprehensible practice of anti-abortionists). If the second, she had to leave Ohio anyway. And that's what should have happened because a raped 10-year-old shouldn't be forced to carry a baby.
"Beyond that ... the failure to report the probable rape of the 10 year old."
The mother brought her daughter to a doctor in Indiana in a high-visibility situation because ... she was some sort of evil, rape-hiding criminal? WTF? And I notice you put all sorts of nefarious motivations on the mother and the doctor with zero evidence of anything contained in your fantastical speculation.
"If you want to argue that the heartbeat bill is a de-facto ban, make that argument. Don't just tell people that abortions are banned in the state when that's a factual inaccuracy."
An anti-abortionist making accusations of factual inaccuracies is laughably hypocritical, since the anti-abortion position requires factual inaccuracies to exist. Anti-abortionists claim a fertilized egg is a baby. A heartbeat is possible without a heart. Viability isn't a clear standard. The health of a mother isn't relevant. Etc., etc., etc.
So tell me, Captain Factual, where is the line between a true ban and a de facto ban? Four weeks, which would make it impossible for a woman to know she is pregnant? Because it seems like the only definition you will accept is a complete ban, by law, without exceptions.
The mother brought her daughter to a doctor in Indiana in a high-visibility situation because ... she was some sort of evil, rape-hiding criminal?
https://nypost.com/2022/07/15/mom-of-10-year-old-ohio-girl-who-got-abortion-defends-rapist/
“She’s fine. Everything that they’re saying against him is a lie,” she insisted of Fuentes, who confessed during police interviews to raping the youngster at least twice, according to court records and officials.
The defensive mom, who hid her face when speaking to Telemundo in Spanish, insisted that she had not been the one to file charges against her young daughter’s abuser.
She defends him, yes. It may shock you to learn that women often defend their boyfriends doing some of the most horrible things, even against their own children. Men can do the same thing with their wives and girlfriends, they go into denial, they pretend it was a one-time error, they're self-deluded, whatever. She didn't want the boyfriend to be arrested and was trying to cover it up, which is they told Dr. Bernard the father was 17.
Well then she needs to go to jail. Maybe as an accessory? Can any of the lawyers here tell us what charges she could be brought up on?
I don't care who you are or what you believe. If you think a boyfriend is more important than protecting your child, you need to be incarcerated for the same amount of time as the perpetrator. I don't know if that's a law anywhere, but it should be.
Sadly it's a crap shoot. She may lose custody or a judge may decide that as long as she pinky promises to not let the boyfriend back into the home her daughter will continue to live with her.
So tell me, Captain Factual, where is the line between a true ban and a de facto ban? Four weeks, which would make it impossible for a woman to know she is pregnant? Because it seems like the only definition you will accept is a complete ban, by law, without exceptions.
Feel free to say that six weeks is a de-facto ban! I'm not advocating heartbeat bills, I think they're poorly reasoned. But don't just consider it settled and claim there's an abortion ban in a state where abortions remain legal under certain circumstances. It makes a much better argument when you're able to stay grounded in the purely factual instead of setting up a premise that is itself argumentative.
We'll have the purely factual soon. I believe a number of the trigger laws are absolute. No exceptions or only to save the life of the mother (which is absolutely a ban, since the choice to terminate is never avaiable to the woman).
Also, it's not six weeks, six weeks is the earliest point in time that it could happen. Most of the time it occurs around 10 to 12 weeks of in remembering correctly.
Also, Ohio AG Dave Yost said that the abortion would have been legal in Ohio.
But I'm guessing it would have created a stir, both with the mother's boyfriend and the crazy activists on both sides.
2) The argument that the severe level of restriction that anti-abortion forces are pushing aren't de facto bans is equally disingenuous.
And the argument from pro-abortion forces that they wanted it to be "safe, legal, and rare" was an outright lie, so it's not like you abortion maximalists should really be taken in good faith here.
"And the argument from pro-abortion forces that they wanted it to be "safe, legal, and rare" was an outright lie"
Pro-choice is not pro-abortion. I am ardently pro-choice, but would oppose abortion if I were involved. I don't like abortion at all, but I don't think I should be allowed to force my personal opposition on others. Your ignorant accusation notwithstanding.
You may be pro-choice, but many extremists were actually pro-abortion. There are politicians on the record openly advocating for "post-birth abortions", and it is legal up to minutes before birth in New York and California. Now, these were rare, but they do tend to stick in the brain.
Abortion is a sacrament to these people.
"There are politicians on the record openly advocating for "post-birth abortions""
I've heard this repeatedly from anti-avortionists, but I've never seen any quotes. I'm sure there have been things said that could be misrepresented as such, but I find it unlikely that anyone has ever said "a child can be killed after being born".
"Now, these were rare, but they do tend to stick in the brain."
They aren't just rare. They are non-existent in the last 15 years or so unless medically necessary. It's an accusation without any foundation.
Fewer people are pro-abortion than are anti-abortion. Historically, Americans don't support abortion through the third trimester. It has never reached 10% support. It jumped up after Dobbs, but I doubt it will stay there. When 50 years of data says one thing, you can count it as reliable. Over the same period roughly 15% (plus or minus a couple points) support making abortion completely illegal (no exceptions).
Those are the extremes. The other 76% of us believe in abortion being legal, but with some restrictions. Those categories are asked as "illegal in most cases" (pro-life) and "legal in most cases" (pro-choice).
Most people aren't on the extremes.
Former (Democrat) governor of Virginia (Northam sp?) was in favor of letting doctor and mother decide if delivered baby should live. It is known.
If you could find it that would help. It seems a bridge too far.
The reason for this-since we're about reason here-is that you have factual inaccuracies right at the front of your article, and those factual inaccuracies seem to be offered in furtherance of your argument. That is, they don't appear to be good faith, they appear to be lies in order to advance the point you're making.
Okay this is kind of a meta-discussion here, but can we please try to see more shades of gray in between "a story told exactly the way I think it should be told" and "a story full of bad-faith lies"? It just completely irritates me when a good-faith disagreement is twisted into accusations of perfidy.
For example:
1) The girl did not have to cross state lines to get an abortion. The AG of Ohio has declared that the medical emergency standard would likely have covered that 10-year-old's circumstances.
Isn't the standard of "what's necessary" really in the eye of the beholder? Even if we accept that it was not legally necessary at the time to go to Indiana, was that information clearly known to all parties at the time? If not, could a reasonable individual conclude that what was "necessary", out of an abundance of caution, was to travel to Indiana, because the correct legal standard was murky at the moment? And even beyond what was legally required, could it be the case that a professional would decide to be more cautious than what was legally allowed or required, in order to do what he/she thought was in one's own professional best interest, to protect one's reputation or business?
Do you have a point?
Because the whole point of this story was political framing. "This poor, victimized child couldn't even get an abortion in Ohio after she was raped!" If the truth was "10 year rape victim chose to get abortion in Indiana due to uncertainty about Ohio laws," that's not as powerfully condemning the Ohio laws.
My point is mainly that lying to make a better story actually discredits the messaging, and is less effective than accuracy. For example, we don't have any confirmation that they ever visited an Ohio doctor, even though that was reported. It's in fact quite tenuous that they did due to the fact that no rape was reported in Ohio.
If lying to make a better story discredits the message, anti-abortionists are screwed.
I have to agree. There is already a medical emergency standard for this procedure, and there is a standard for every other medical procedure in existence.
Abortion doesn't need special protections for this. Indeed, it seems extremely clear that her case was exaggerated or even falsely denied for political points.
Why should I listen to the people spouting motivated reasoning like this? They were fine with Kermit Gosnell killing women for abortion access and were only concerned about how a monster like that being revealed in their midst would make them look
They were also fine with disallowing health regulators going into abortion centers to verify cleanliness and standard health care procedures when even your minute clinic is subject to these inspections. With many abortion centers not doing standard things such as proper sanitization of medical tools.
So Church Lady, you'll be satisfied with tougher regs on abortion clinics?
You mean standard quality of cleanliness regulations? That should be the minimum dumbass.
Joe Friday advocates Health Departments shouldn’t have access to restaurant’s kitchens without realizing it.
Damn you’re a fucking mendacious retard.
Why should anyone listen to you about their family's decisions?
Now do mandatory vax and masks.
So you just skip over the defense of murder to go for the "why can't I be irresponsible and then murder the consequences of my actions" defense? Classic dim bulb Joe.
Hey, Joe, are you fine with polygamy--the old fashioned patriarchal kind? How about some fundamentalist women as chattel family living?
Yeah, you’re the faggot who won’t leave anyone alone with your progtard policies, but want to be free to fuck and murder your children.
"They were fine with Kermit Gosnell"
Referencing Kermit Gosnell as a condemnation of pro-choice beliefs is a clear indication of an unserious post (and person). Wingnuts just don't see it.
Please explain.
But you were fine with Kermit Gosnell (who wasn't the only individual doing this, just the one who got the most attention). So what's the issue?
I, and almost everyone else in the world, were horrified and disgusted by Kermit Gosnell. The false assertion that what he was doing is what pro-choice advocates want is patently false. The only ones who believe such a dishonest assertion are fanatics or idiots. Or both.
I, and almost everyone else in the world, were horrified and disgusted by Kermit Gosnell.
LO-fucking-L!
Horrified and disgusted by what exactly? He’s performing abortions just like you support. What did you think was going on in these places? Did you think the Abortion Fairy magically removed those clumps of cells? You get a peak behind the curtain and pretend it’s some sort of outlier. You’re not fooling anybody Nelson.
"He’s performing abortions just like you support."
I don't support killing live-born babies. I don't even support third-trimester abortions. So stop taking the extreme and trying to generalize it to everyone who supports choice. There is a wide array of opinions amongst those who believe abortion should be legal.
"What did you think was going on in these places?"
Not medically unnecessary IDX procedure. There hasn't been one of those done legally in the US in over 15 years.
Kermit Gosnell was performing illegal abortions. That's why he's in jail for the rest of his life.
"Did you think the Abortion Fairy magically removed those clumps of cells?"
The clumps of cells are all removed with a couple pills. Once the fetus develops it sometimes takes a different procedure, but pretending abortion clinics are surgical chop shops is a lie.
If you can't see the difference between criminal and non-criminal activity, you can't be helped.
"I don't support killing live-born babies. I don't even support third-trimester abortions."
Nevertheless, you are aligning yourself with those who do. Your measured stance will not be appreciated by them; it will be lost in the din of any abortion on demand at any time for any reason. Choose your sides wisely. Please appreciate the choice between valuing individual choice vs. individual life. One may lead to sacrificing babies for parts; the other may lead to sacrificing adults for..parts.
Guilt by association is a bad argument for anything.
Anti-abortion terrorists murder doctors and staff at abortion clinics, but that has nothing to do with you. Just like people who support unrestricted abortions have nothing to do with me.
Rather than trying to force evryone into two caricatures, engage with people on their own beliefs. In abortion, more than most other topics, there is a wide and varied set of beliefs. Acting like there are only two isn't being honest.
Your kind covered for that infanticidal serial killer for over a decade. That is a proven fact. Now you want to pull the same shit you do with everything. Discredit anyone who brings it up.
It is completely relevant to being up Gosnell. You just don’t like it because that case showcases prog infanticide culture. So suck it up, Gosnell is what happens with people like you in charge.
An investigation and prosecution in a blue state put a criminal behind bars. There may have been a few wingnuts as far to the permissive fringe as you are to the authoritarian fringe, but besides them everyone condemns Kermit Gosnell.
Pretending otherwise is baseless demonization.
Bullshit. If he wasn't exactly what you pro-abortion activists wanted he wouldn't have been allowed to continue operating. He was protected from exposure and consequences by people like you that would rather cover up a few dead low income women than have your holy sacrament questioned at all.
I am not pro-abortion. I protected no one. I never have and never will support covering up anyone's death, poor or otherwise.
Your ad hominem attacks, baseless accusations, and lumping of anyone who supports an individual's right to decide what happens to their own body into a single group, then placing false motives on them, show you to be an irrational fanatic. Why should anyone take you seriously?
I think Jacob is confused. Roe was bad law with absurd legal reasoning. The repeal of Roe is good law with sensible legal reasoning. The Constitutional philosophy of Reason staff writers appears to be, "If a SCOTUS ruling has desirable consequences from a liberaltarian ideological perspective, it's good law; if it has undesirable consequences from a liberaltarian ideological perspective, it's bad law."
Seems like we have another Prisoner fan here.
You 2 should fight to the death.
Degree Absolute!
Roe was a bad ruling because it legislated from the bench. The ruling became legislation. That's not the Court's job. The end.
This article's just...bizarre. Try reading the Roe opinions and see if there's anything about this business of protecting doctors. If it were about the doctor, then why would it be Roe rather than the doctor's name?
And so what if a jury might be swayed to distrust a doctor's judgment? Are we to have a legal regime in which whatever a doctor does or says must be trusted in court as correct?
Any of us might wind up in court regarding something we've done. Why should doctors be special in that regard?
In fact, if Jacob’s assertion is correct, it reinforces the position of Roe’s critics that it was truly “legislation from the bench” and not a matter of rigorous constitutional analysis.
What sort of dystopian hell have we created for ourselves and our children, where people just *cross state lines* whenever they feel like it?
Oh, the humanity!
Crossing state lines in an attempt to get away with raping your gfs 10 year old daughter is fine, crossing state lines to clean up and defend a community is evil incarnate to these twisted folks.
"raping your gfs 10 year old daughter is fine"
No one thinks that raping 10-year-olds is fine. What is wrong with you?
Has anyone confirmed this with Jeffy?
Have you read Scott articles?
Do we need to point out the spate of sexual grooming of children being done by the left? Would you prefer the people pushing this story and their downplaying everything outside the abortion access lie? Sorry if the truth about the people you're in bed with discomforts you but they are who they are, they do what they do and you chose them.
There is no organized grooming of children for sexual exploitation by "the left". Teachers aren't exposing kids to sexual material by mentioning gay and transsexual people. This fantasy that drag queens and the knowledge of anything other than heterosexual relationships is corrosive and evil is ludicrous.
You are in a full moral panic. Literally. The definition of a moral panic. Grow up.
Funny how no one is blaming the illegal alien rapist. Instead blaming SCOTUS. Who didn’t rape that child. Plus, you democrats have already started moving towards legitimizing child molestation.
Everyone is blaming the rapist for the rape.
Everyone is blaming SCOTUS for their assault on freedom and liberty.
Everyone is blaming Ohio's legislature for being moralistic authoritarians who hate people who decide their beliefs for themselves.
Everyone is pointing out that when you have to go to Indiana for a more reasonable environment, things have gotten really bad.
All of these things are true.
The d elk rats are blaming republicans for not being able to get the abortion that she had no problem getting. None of you are condemning the rapist.
Face it, you and your fellow travelers have started in the path to make pedophiles your next protected class.
From the politico link:
“We are especially concerned that, given the controversial political context of the statements, such inflammatory accusations have the potential to incite harassment or violence from the public which could prevent Dr. Bernard, an Indiana licensed physician, from providing care to her patents safely,” the letter reads.
So is Reason going to start being concerned with potential violence from political speech, or is it just for this issue? Because, I don’t know if anyone heard, but some nut was arrested for attempting to assassinate a Supremacy Court Justice recently.
Oh wait, sorry, that involved the very same issue. Now I’m really confused when we should be concerned with potential violence from political speech. I just can’t figure out the standards for this concern.
The court didn't make bad law, it removed bad law.
The cruelty is the point. They WANT this. They want full control of women's bodies, they want doctors to be afraid to treat, they want to be able to deny any kind of care to people they don't like.
This is the reality of the Republican hellscape. Let's not act like we're surprised this is where they're taking us. All by design.
Oppressing leftists until they disappear is automatically good.
You see an unborn child as a clump of cells, and they see illegal immigrants as a clump of cells. To them an immigrant isn't a human being until it has papers, and to you an child isn't a human being until it pops out.
From your point of view when they treat illegal immigrants like clumps of cells instead of human beings, and you take offense. You see that as cruel to these poor people. They don't see it that way because immigrants without papers aren't human beings. They're just clumps of cells.
From their point of view abortion is murder because when you see a clump of cells they see a human being.
So they won't want control over women's bodies. They want to save human life.
The thing I can't figure out is why they consider unborn children to be human beings when they don't have any papers. Seems logically inconsistent.
an illegal alien is a criminal, by definition, and should be treated as such. jailed and deported per the law.
That's quite the appeal to authority.
Tell me, how are you personally harmed by these paperless clumps of cells?
a nation is not a nation without a secure border. why do so many on this site support open borders? are you all really just leftists? the only acceptable number of illegal entries is zero and this has nothing to do with any law. this is just common sense. and yes the country and individual citizens are harmed by these illegal criminals just like we are with all other criminals. or do you support criminal action?
are you all really just leftists?
So you're just another functional retard who honestly believes that anyone who deviates from the Republican Party Platform is a leftist.
The dearth of intelligence in these comments makes my head hurt. I used to come here to learn things from people who were smarter than me. Now I look with sadness upon a sea of morons.
says the guy who supports open borders. anyone who supports open borders hates this country and should leave. we don't want you any more than we want the criminal illegal aliens.
Spoken like a binary-thinking conservative who sees any disagreement as total devotion to the other team.
it absolutely is a binary issue. either you support securing the border and stopping all illegal entry or you don't. there is no option c.
I lost my respect for the law a long time ago. I chose morality instead.
So when you harp on "illegal" this and "illegal" that my eyes glaze over, because I really don't give a fuck what the law says. I was written by self-serving assholes who care only for increasing their personal power at the expense of everyone else. Illegal? According to who? Why should I care?
It was written by...
typo
so you have no respect for the law, great news. without the law how do we regulate and control the border? without the law there is no border and anyone can enter at anytime -- kind of what we have with brandon right now. you cite morality and superior to the law, but it is absolutely immoral to have an open border.
That's your opinion.
I'm not "open borders." That's just your assumption.
There needs to be certain controls. Close the door to people with diseases. Don't let in known criminals. Things like that.
But the system that we have now is a sad joke. The time and expense to be considered "legal" is, in my mind, immoral. So when choosing between law and morality with regards to immigration I have to lose respect for the law.
our county and even any country is under no obligation to allow any immigration. so even if we closed the borders and allowed zero immigration there would be nothing immoral about it. there are 194 other countries for these people to immigrate into.
the only acceptable number of illegal entries is zero
I agree. That is why it should be easy to enter this country legally.
I disagree. Entire industries would fall apart from agriculture to food service to cocaine distribution if there were no illegal immigrants.
Great. Let’s get rid of all the illegals and then see what we need to do.
Gee Sarc, that ten year old girl was, wasn’t she?
No one is trying to crush the skull of an illegal then tear it’s arms and legs off. We just want to send them back where they came from.
Oh, and every living thing is a ‘clump of cells’. With the exception of single called organisms. Which is just a cell.
No one is doing that unless it is medically necessary. There hasn't been a legal IDX in over 15 years.
Cite? And there are plenty of illegal procedures you democrats cover up. Gosnell operated that way for over a decade. Even though his mass infanticide was an open secret.
Because people like you covered it up.
You want me to prove a negative? You really are completely dishonest.
The best that anyone can do is point out that there is no report of a medically unnecessary IDX being performed in America since George Tiller was murdered by anti-abortion terrorists in 2009. So you're right. It's 13 years, not 15.
How about you have some evidence before you say something is true. Or is it too much to ask that you have a basis for the things you say?
Every accusation from a progressive leftist is a really a confession.
*barf*
It generally is.
You are a sad little person who clearly has never spoken to a Republican in your life.
I am pro-life, but I cannot stand with these extremists who would force a raped ten year old girl to keep the fetus to term.
Why? What did the fetus do to deserve death?
Unwanted children tend to turn into shitty adults. That's not a defense of abortion. Just something to consider when you say women should have children they don't want.
then give the child up for adoption. easy solution.
Not that easy for the people involved.
yes it is. there are very few things in life that are complex or difficult.
If you think that going through pregnancy and then blithely giving up the kid is simple and easy, then I can say for certain that you have zero experience in the matter.
but killing the baby in an abortion is easy, right?
No. It's not. Again I can see you've never met or spoken with anyone who has ever had any firsthand experience with the subject.
You don’t see very well.
At what point do you acknowledge the pain and trauma of the rape victim?
Depends on who they voted for.
everybody acknowledges pain and trauma of rape victims. never means something else has to die.
Nothing else is dying. No one dies in an abortion.
I've totally changed my stance based on your words.
I never thought you would. But opinion masquerading fact should always be resisted. Especially moralistic, self-righteous opinion. Hence, my post.
Yes, I’m sure you’re dumb enough to think something like that, but as usual, you are totally wrong. This is why there can be one more democrat party. America can’t take the continuous damage your stupidity, ignorance, villainy, and overall totalitarian evil causes.
You should really look at where you want to live when you’re removed from this country. Or just leave now.
I'm not a Democrat. Very intentionally, since the don't represent my issue profile well.
And since most Americans are closer to my beliefs than yours, you're misjudging who would have to leave if push came to shove.
What are the chances of the product of a rape being raised in a loving, nonjudgmental family?
Again I'm not advocating for abortion. Just asking a question.
who was raised in a loving nonjudgmental family?
I'm talking about having the circumstances of your coming into being being judged.
ah my mom was adopted it's like the only thing that's ever defined her ... not detrimental but more path-creating
I know a few people who were adopted. Most don't know their own origin. Perhaps that's a good thing. What if you were adopted and knew your mom was raped? That means your father is a rapist. Think about sinking that into your head.
my mom dug her mom up when I was maybe 18 I got a whole extra grandma & great-grandma & an uncle who's still around ... atypical of course
Maybe a 10 year old carrying the kid to term and putting it up for adoption won't result in a fucked up kid. Maybe a 10 year old getting an abortion will forever fuck up her head. Maybe an adopted product of rape will grow up to be a criminal. Maybe a 10 year old can raise a child.
Too many "maybe"s.
I think a lot of people are raised in loving, nonjudgmental families.
However I wonder if a product of a forced rape and unwanted pregnancy can have that luxury. I could be wrong! I'm not making an argument. I'm asking questions.
Abortion cannot unrape anyone. Ever.
There are many, many thousands of children across the country who would love to be adopted. What could go wrong with adding thousands more?
Although as I understand it, football coaches and anti-abortionists are adopting all those unwanted children. They've virtually eliminated children waiting for adoption. The numbers have dropped *checks notes* ... zero percent? How is that possible with all of these good and decent people offering to adopt unwanted children?
Yes this is a problem that we need to address.
However, please understand how you sound to a pro-life person.
These poor children have a hard life. We are having a hard time taking care of all of them. We can stop their suffering by ensuring they do not live. It sounds like monologue of a psychopath in a murder novel.
Because if you believe the fetus is a separate person, that is what you are doing, wishing you could murder babies who are inconvenient.
You can never convince anyone of your beliefs if you don't understand theirs first.
I start from the position that an unviable fetus isn't a person. Whether you agree or disagree, it frames my post.
That said, I was more pointing out that people like Jim Harbaugh who are publicly talking about adopting unwanted babies aren't actually doing it. It's performative at best. Most likely it's presenting a false image of morality while specifically ignoring that there are already unwanted children who exist.
What they're really saying is that the difference between adopting a child and not adopting a child is whether it's an anti-abortion statement or not. Anyone with a speck of sense can see that the children who are ignored are the ones whose parents did exactly what the anti-abortionists want everyone should do. By force, if necessary.
The alternative isn't "We can stop their suffering by ensuring they do not live." The alternative isn't to be seen acting like a savior, riding to the rescue of a fetus over masses of actual children. The alternative is to adopt an actual, living child now.
Not only does that mean you are actually doing something good rather than posturing, it frees up resources and foster homes so that if someone is trying to decide between abortion and giving their baby up for adoption they don't think putting their baby in the system will lead to misery and abuse.
I very much understand the pro-life position. My sister had an unplanned pregnancy that she chose to keep. It has been brutally hard. I know what she thought, what she believes, and why she couldn't get an abortion. I know she has never regretted her decision. I also know why she is pro-choice. If you choose to believe a fertilized egg is a person and live your life that way, good for you. I mean that sincerely. I've seen it up close and I respect it.
But you don't get to make that choice for anyone else. I'm not required to accept your position just because you are horrified by abortion.
You said "You can never convince anyone of your beliefs if you don't understand theirs first.". I agree. Do you understand pro-choice beliefs Not the "you like abortion" strawman, but the actual beliefs of the average American who thinks that abortion, up to a certain point, should be legal and is a personal choice.
Do you understand how, if you didn't believe a fetus was a person, anti-abortion laws would be horrifying? How they would be seen as invading a deeply personal moment and stealing your right to control your body? How someone could believe the presumption should be that the government can't have control over your body without a damned good reason?
"Because if you believe the fetus is a separate person, that is what you are doing, wishing you could murder babies who are inconvenient."
And yet that doesn't change reality. I believe, morally, ethically, and philosophically, that there is nothing wrong with pre-viability abortion. But it isn't just a philosophical issue, is it? It's a practical one as well.
There are already millions of unwanted children, both in the system and not. No one is stepping up for them. It's easy to claim you are doing the moral thing by forcing people to bear unwanted children if you don't have to suffer the consequences. You don't have to be beaten by a bitter parent. You don't have to spend your life hungry because your mother can't afford to feed you. You don't have to freeze in the winter and roast in the summer because you are living in a car or on the street. And there are many worse scenarios than those. From a practical perspective, irregardless of philosophical considerations, banning abortion increases misery and suffering.
You asked for understanding. This post has been an attempt to respond, in a respectful way, to your post. If I come off as disrespectful, I apologize. You didn't come at this with "babykiller" and "abortion-lover" and it is appreciated. I am interested in continuing an honest conversation, if you are willing. Thank you for being reasonable.
It is completely and utterly cruel to the 10-year-old.
Oh come on. A 10-year-old is totally able to handle the responsibilities of being a parent and it totally capable of handling a full-term pregnancy. And you're a prejudicial asshole if you think the product of a rape will be treated differently than a child from a loving relationship. You're such a piece of shit. I bet you voted for Biden.
I don’t know about all that but I do know that 10 year old is old enough to pick her sex, mutilate her sex organs, and go on hormones irreversibly changing her body. Come to think of it if she can do all that then shitting out a baby and becoming a terrible parent in America isn’t so bad. Besides victimhood is sainthood in our culture.
It’s your fault that little girl got raped Jeffy. You and others like you made it easy for that goddamned illegal to be in Ohio to rape that little girl. He had every right to be there, didn’t he?
You fucking pedo cunt. I hope you suffer a similar fate.
Unless you're a Christian Scientist who believes that all abortion from conception is murder, the idea of forcing a 10 yr old to carry a rape baby to term, in a household living with the rapist, and a mother aggressively protecting that rapist is not... an ideal situation... to put an understated spin on it.
I know the usual suspects will say I'm a liar for disagreeing with the voices in their heads, but here's sarc's take on abortion: I don't think it should be sue as birth control. The end.
What kind of crap is this article. The entire first paragraph is FALSE. Fake news. The Ohio AG has unequivocally stated that it would not have been against the law for this girl to have an abortion in Ohio. The Indiana doctor is under investigation by Indiana's AG because, as required by law, she failed to report the rape of a minor.
Reason has become nothing more than the equivalent of Vox or HuffPost. Sad.
If all this is so, then reason editors should research again. Let us know if Mr. Linker's assertions are true or if Mr. Bones is incorrect.
Commenters here make assertions all the time and reason editors should comment when untruths are made in a reason sponsored article. We certainly can't depend on the MSM for corrections.
"The Indiana doctor is under investigation by Indiana's AG because, as required by law, she failed to report the rape of a minor."
You really need to get better news sources. This was debunked even quicker than the "there isn't any raped, pregnant 10-year-old. Fake news!" conspiracy theory. How gullible are you?
Really?
https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/27/us/indiana-doctor-child-rape-abortion-ag-investigation/index.html
“The Indiana doctor who provided abortion services for a 10-year-old girl who was raped is now being investigated by the state's attorney general, according to a lawyer for the doctor.”
Yes. In public records. As reported in that lefty rag, Forbes and many, many, many other sources.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2022/07/14/indiana-investigates-doctor-who-helped-10-year-old-rape-victim-obtain-abortion---even-though-its-still-legal-there/?sh=1dee99bd6b7e
"According to police testimony cited by the Dispatch, the rape was reported to child services in Ohio, which is how police learned of the crime, and public records show Bernard did report the abortion."
Gee, I wonder if the Indiana AG is ignorant, stupid, or grandstanding. Since there's no evidence he's stupid and the information was readily available ...
They’re investigating. So we will see how much you’re lying.
It's a confirmed, official, publicly available document. Reported on by dozens and dozens of reputable journalists from across the ideological spectrum.
You can't possibly be this dense.
>>Supreme Court decision overturning Roe has made bad law
~~waves finger no no no.
if the 10 year old girl had been taken to the doctor the day after the rape she could have been given drugs to prevent the pregnancy. why wait more than 6 weeks to deal with the issue? yes the girl was raped but once again we have irresponsible adults not acting and taking responsibility. the adults delayed until the issue became a crisis.
why wait more than 6 weeks to deal with the issue? yes the girl was raped but once again we have irresponsible adults not acting and taking responsibility. the adults delayed until the issue became a crisis.
Probably because the guy that raped her was the mother's boyfriend, and she doesn't want him to go to jail.
In a sane society, the guy who raped her would have already been strung up by his neck and swinging from a tree branch by now, with a warning to the mother that she'll be next if she lets it happen again.
It is quite likely that the daughter didn't tell her mother - after all, she's only 10 and had no idea what to do and probably afraid of the rapist as well. Maybe by 6 weeks she was having some issues.
Since when are 10 yr olds fecund? I know the age of first menstruation has been getting earlier, but wow.
And if the liberal media had found out about the rape, and if the girl had not gotten pregnant, how do you think they would have spun the story?
(We might also have to make all parties involved legal residents to avoid conflicting liberal "ethics".)
This is likely the situation. As my post suggests below, there's some deeply ugly stuff going on with this case, but the press is uninterested in doing their jobs. She couldn't get an abortion in Ohio because activists said she couldn't. Don't ask questions about the details of the rape, don't ask questions about how the case was referred, why a well known activist physician was the recipient of the case just days after speaking at an abortion rally... there is no manipulation here, it's just the natural consequence of Dobbs.
if the 10 year old girl had been taken to the doctor the day after the rape she could have been given drugs to prevent the pregnancy. why wait more than 6 weeks to deal with the issue?
That is a good point. However, we have seen that many of the same people who want to make abortion illegal at very early stages of pregnancy, also have a big problem with sex ed in public schools.
Look at the controversy over the sex ed curriculum in Miami. The conservative groups who complained about it specifically said that they thought it was inappropriate that abortion or Plan B was discussed at the middle school level and therefore that part of the curriculum should be removed. Well, here is a case where this middle-school-aged girl would have been really helped if she had known about Plan B so that she didn't have to go through this entire ordeal.
sex ed has nothing to do with this issue. the government has no role in teaching sex ed as that is up to the parents. when the government schools are excelling at teaching math & science then we can talk about having them teach sex ed. but right now the government schools are complete failure.
Okay then. You don't want any sex ed in schools because you believe parents will be responsible enough to teach these concepts to their kids. And then in the next breath you denounce the irresponsible parents in this case who didn't take their 10-year-old rape victim to the doctor.
i know for a fact that there are many irresponsible parents who will do a terrible job in teaching their children about sex and even many other topics. but that does not justify government involvement. i though this is a libertarian site and you're advocating for bigger government and one that is more involved in our children's lives. no, there is no scenario in which we need more government in schools. they've demonstrably failed in the area of education. even the poor job that some parents may do will be better than anything the government can attempt.
Almost like parental responsibility lies with parents themselves.
Yes, junior high is about the right time to have sex ed in school.
Not K-3 as the crazies would have in FL had DeSantis not stepped in.
lol no one seriously proposed teaching "sex ed" to kindergartners
Then why was their all the hullaballoo about a law that prevented it? If it truly wasn't happening, then response would be eye-rolls not panic
because the law in question went much farther than banning "sex ed" in grades K-3. of course you know this.
We also know that you are always on the pedophile’s side of any issue.
no its the right time for the parents to talk to their children about sex. the government has no role in this matter. ever.
Okay, then, so a foreseeable consequence of your position is that, while most parents will be responsible and teach their kids "the birds and the bees", there will be a small minority who won't, and they will wind up with 10-year-old rape victims. Or, more commonly, simply with pregnant teenagers.
Part of the point of the sex ed curriculum is to provide a baseline minimum instruction on basic human reproduction, so that, even if the parents don't teach their kids this info at home, at least they are getting it in some setting and are better able to make smarter choices. And I think pretty much every school district will permit parents to "opt out" of the sex ed curriculum for their kids if they don't want it.
But if you don't even want that, then yes you will have kids with irresponsible parents making dumb sexual choices, as well as unfortunately being rape victims and not knowing how to deal with it.
And I know the standard libertarian answer is that "private charity will step in to provide for the needs of all those teen parents" such as with crisis pregnancy centers. And that is terrific. But perhaps in this case an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.
if I don't tell my 10 year old about sex she'll get raped?
If you don't tell your kids about the dangers in the world, and how to defend against them/respond to them, they will have a much more difficult time dealing with the consequences if they happen to find themselves in trouble. This is as true about sex as it is true about anything else.
There’s a lot more danger to children in the world with pedo enthusiasts like you working to import illegal alien child rapists. Like the one who raped that little girl.
again for the 100th time, it is not the government's role. why are you so quick to say that if individual citizens are not doing thing x then we must have the government do thing x? do you realize that is the ideology and base position of all leftists & liberals? our objective, always, should be to reduce government to the smallest size, not jump to making it bigger. our individual liberty is inversely proportional to the size of government.
"Not K-3 as the crazies would have in FL had DeSantis not stepped in."
No one was teaching sex ed in Florida to K-3 kids. Talking about gay and transgender people isn't sex ed.
Talking about sexual intercourse is sex ed. No one was doing that.
However, DeSantis is definitely burnishing his culture warrior credentials using the power of the state. What could possibly be wrong with that?
You pedophiles don’t need to be talking about sexual orientation or tranny shit with little kids. But hey, you and your fellow travelers feel free to go full pro Pedo groomer for the midterms.
Let’s see how that strategy plays out.
Well, here is a case where this middle-school-aged girl would have been really helped if she had known about Plan B so that she didn't have to go through this entire ordeal.
While this is one of those things that looks good on paper, I'm guessing that a 10 yr old girl living in a household with a rapist and a mother who's trying to protect that rapist isn't going to be able to swing by the pharmacy on her own and get Plan B. That little girl at 10 yrs old would probably not have the resources or ability to take any action on her own without the people who are supposed to be protecting her doing their jobs.
Jeffy, this girl was raped by that illegal because of open borders progtards like you. You should apologize to everyone here for all of your evil, and your dishonest threadshitting comments, and then drink a bottle of Drano.
You are completely despicable and really should kill yourself. If we get rid of enough people like you, little girl’s like this won’t be raped by illegals anymore. Or groomed in school by freakshow activists.
"why wait more than 6 weeks to deal with the issue"
Tell me, since I don't know. When did anyone become aware of the rape? Was it that day?
the victim certainly knew and most certainly told someone. i don't believe that the the first time an adult learned about the rape was 6 weeks later.
So after the date that Ohio's ban starts?
Why are you suggesting that it is the job of the Supreme Court to fix state laws? Why not leave it to the states to fix their own laws?
Because the more unassailably partisan a state is, the more they suck at it. Red or blue, veto-proof majorities are an invitation to authoritarianism.
States shouldn't be able to rescind Americans' rights just because they have overwhelming political power and don't like the way those rights are used.
They can’t. Your confusion stems from your complete ignorance of what is a right and what isn’t. There is no right to commit infanticide.
You obviously don't understand what "infanticide" means. You keep using it wrong.
I do understand what it means. You’re just too stupid and fanatical to grasp that. Regardless, what your tiny mind ‘thinks’ means nothing. Prog traitor trash like you are irrelevant.
This article is mostly anti-libertarian and pro Big Government.
Simply put Roe was bad because the Federal Government does not have the authority to regulate abortions. The Supreme Court returned the decision back to the States. This is a good thing.
We want the Federal Government to have LESS control over our daily lives. This does not mean that various State Governments will not violate our rights and seize too much power. This does not mean that there will not be issues that need to be solved.
What this does mean is that centralized control is vastly less representative of the individual. The author seems to be advocating for centralized control which by it's very nature is more authoritarian than localized control.
I can walk down the street to talk to the mayor. I can't speak to the ruling elite in Washington DC. My mayor has more of a sense of my life that anyone in Washington DC.
Roe was bad law in that the Federal Government should play ZERO role. Personally I don't feel that the State Governments should have any role either.
Mayors have nothing to do with abortions.
I didn't know that some libertarians like you were literally "statists".
You have no idea how our nation is structured, do you? Or is that just performative language? Nah, you’re too stupid to say something remotely clever.
Well said, sir. I would expect a libertarian site to argue for respecting the Constitution and amending it if necessary. Instead I get emotional arguments that we should ignore the Constitution because .... reasons.
On a site called Reason. Oh, the irony.
Roe was the libertarian option. It said that the issue was too personal and too controversial for legislatures to make definite decisions on the matter. It took power away from the government. It did one better than moving the issue to the states: it took it to the smallest legislature of all, the individual. That's what it did.
Libertarianism is either incoherent or a minor technical argument if it is merely the belief that state governments are wiser than the federal one. State governments are the ones that tend to oppress people and take away their rights, after all. Which is just what Alito assumed would happen.
Pretty much Tony. I don't know how anyone can consider the recent reactionary decision by the court on abortions as anything but an extension of government power over individual choice. Roe was considered "flawed" because it was messy and arbitrary, as is any point on a continuum, but that's how reality often is. It enforced the state's right to protect viable human life while acknowledging women's individual right to decide if they wished to bring that life to viability. By the way, about 10% of women have abortions in America, most of them already have and or will have children, and so the idea that most are libertines to distracted by thrills to consider the seriousness of the decision is just nonsense.
You’re a drooling idiot that finds solidarity with our resident raving faggot who has an 85 IQ.
Just like you Joe! Maybe you two can go fuck each other.
Tony, you’re the one who is incoherent. You only have an 85 IQ, so this is to be expected. Even RBG said Roe was on shaky constitutional ground.
Yet it lasted 50 years anyway.
These justices made a choice. They didn't have to make it. And they didn't make it because of their deep devotion to constitutional nitpicking, but because they believe that Sky Grandpa wants women to shut up and get raped.
Slavery lasted even longer. Because of democrats. SCOTUS made the right call. You’re just too stupid and treasonous to understand that.
Have you ever considered going outdoors from time to time?
Interestingly, since the topic is abortion and rape...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermesmann_v._Seyer
Hermesmann v. Seyer (State of Kansas ex rel. Hermesmann v. Seyer, 847 P.2d 1273 (Kan. 1993)),[1] was a precedent-setting Kansas, United States, case in which Colleen Hermesmann successfully argued that a woman is entitled to sue the father of her child for child support even if conception occurred as a result of a criminal act committed by the woman.
What does this have to do with you helping to illegally bring child rapists into the US? Like the one you helped to roe that 1o year old girl?
You’ve helped destroy a lot of lives, you worthless shitweasel.
Americans are rightly shocked by the news of a 10-year-old rape victim who had to cross state lines to lawfully terminate her pregnancy. The girl's home state of Ohio outlawed abortion in the wake of Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, the recent Supreme Court decision overturning Roe v. Wade (1973). So the girl's doctors referred her out of state for the medical procedure that saved her from grievous physical injury and possible death. Making matters worse, the law-abiding Indiana doctor who performed the abortion had her judgment questioned by her state's grandstanding attorney general, who raised the specter of legal action against the doctor.
Ok, I'm going to say this again...
This whole highly questionable affair is full of so many coincidences and planets perfectly aligning, that the likelihood that this was just a "natural consequence" of Dobbs is laughable.
This was, as I made clear in a previous, well-researched and detailed post which I won't repeat here, like on Thursday afternoon, declaring that you will win the lottery on Friday 5pm before the closing bell, and one of your activists comes running through the door at 4:58pm on Friday, with a roomful of waiting press, waving a winning lottery ticket with a smudged date on it.
And by the way, the story gets even stranger. My local newspaper printed an article defending the Indiana doctor and printing a fact check that showed that she HAD informed the authorities within the 3 day required period on July 2nd. That I don't dispute. In the article, they printed a file photo of the Indiana physician speaking at an abortion rally in Indianapolis on June 25th.
That means that this this physician is prominent enough in abortion activist circles to have been a featured speaker. She's well known. She spoke on June 25th. Seven days later she was presented with this golidlocks case of a raped, pregnant 10 yr old.
For the record, I believe she DID report the case legally and within the required timeframe. But what that means is this well known abortion activist, 5 to 7 days after speaking at an abortion rally received a winning lottery ticket.
Now, some people have confused my protestations about this particularly deliciously perfect set of events as disbelief that the 10 yr old exists. I do believe she exists. What I am suggesting is that this situation was manipulated for political gain, especially since it has been made abundantly clear that the 10 yr old could have legally had an abortion in Ohio because she fell well within the medical emergency category.
But that doesn't change the fact that this situation was a political manipulation. Someone said, "We need the edgiest of the edge cases, and I have a physician across state lines who's ready to go and accept any patients you have which fall into these ultra-edgy cases."
Oh, and by the by, Telemundo claims to have interviewed the mother of the 10 yr old girl who says that press is lying about the situation with the accused rapist (who is apparently a relation to the family). I don't know what to make of all that, but there's clearly some other really ugly sides of this case that the press is nigh uninterested in exploring.
Oh and:
The whole sorry affair should remind us of one key reason why Roe was decided in the first place: to protect doctors.
This is about an odd a take as one could come up with as to why Roe was decided. Roe was decided to protect women. Period. Even if you don't like or disagreed with Roe, "protecting doctors" was not a key reason to pass Roe.
Yup. This struck me as particularly egregious:
Making matters worse, the law-abiding Indiana doctor who performed the abortion had her judgment questioned by her state's grandstanding attorney general, who raised the specter of legal action against the doctor.
First, the audacity of someone whining about "Their/My judgement was questioned!" saying someone else is grandstanding just astounding.
Further, it's weird how the pro-abortion doctor who's been widely depicted talking at rallies is totally not the one grandstanding here, while the AG, doing his job aggressively because somebody usurped the COC and put the heat on him by deliberately putting the Doctor's story in the President's mouth before it came across either the IN or the OH AG's desks, is.
The collusion is obvious and the implications if we were talking about any other issue, let alone a "right", would be astounding. Imagine if Biden announced the FBI's thwarting of Whitmer's attempted kidnapping before Whitmer found out or if he announced that the Waffle House shooter got his guns illegally in IL before the IL AG found out. Even if, and I absolutely agree it's highly likely that Biden had zero fucking clue, that's clearly a deus ex machina moment and there's clearly a shadow puppeteer (or several) doing some very fucked up shit behind the curtain.
while the AG, doing his job aggressively because somebody usurped the COC and put the heat on him by deliberately putting the Doctor's story in the President's mouth before it came across either the IN or the OH AG's desks, is.
Yeah, that CANNOT be understated. When the sympathetic press can't even find a record of the case before it's in Joe Biden's mouth should be raising every skeptical alarm bell in the universe.
This whole 10 yr old rape case must have been an absolutely fascinating matrix of cloak and dagger phone calls between activists and DNC operatives.
It's not fair if Democrats do abortion politics too!
Democrats are criminals and traitors. Democrats should never do anything, ever.
It's a conspiracy, I tell you.
-A rape was reported, at 6 weeks and three days, of a 10-year-old girl.
-That girl was pregnant.
-Ohio's law bans abortion after 6 weeks and does not have an exception for rape.
-Officials in Ohio reached out to the Indiana doctor because Indiana presently has a 22 week ban.
-The child traveled to Iniana.
-The legal abortion was performed.
-The Indiana doctor filed the required paperwork, reporting the abortion, the patient's age, and the chil's abuse.
Those bastards! They conspired to ... provide a legal abortion to a rape victim?
The girl could have gotten the abortion on Ohio. This is a proven fact. You are I both ignorant, and a liar.
The end.
The whole sorry affair should remind us of one key reason why Roe was decided in the first place: to protect doctors.
To dig this analogy a bit deeper, that's a bit like saying "legalizing marijuana was designed to protect retailers".
As if this story being real or a hoax should have any bearing on the appropriateness of laws that would in fact force children to give birth to rape babies against their will.
The Ohio law says abortions are permitted if there is "serious risk of the substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function." The whole fear is that this language is too vague and doesn't necessarily cover a child being pregnant in and of itself, and doctors must sign paperwork attesting to this criterion.
<a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/media/2022/07/28/ohio-abortion-journalism/"How local journalists proved a 10-year-old’s abortion wasn’t a hoax"
For the record, Tony, I don't support the abortion law. If that girl had been 17, then she would likely have NOT fallen into the exception. Why the activists couldn't find a 17 yr old is a mystery to me... well, a mystery after a fashion. But they went for the gold and found a pregnant 10 yr old-- a fantastically rare occurrence that would have required a young girl in a state of "precocious puberty" as the medical experts call it) combined with a rape, a subsequent pregnancy etc.
This was a political manipulation. And you messed up your link but I'm aware of that story, and had you read my message more carefully, you'd know I wasn't disputing her existence, I'm disputing the way in which it was carefully fed to us.
I'm sorry politics exists?
Everything you do is political. You’re a democrat.
Politics comes from the Greek poly- for "many" and -tics for "blood-sucking parasites."
Well, you ARE a parasite.
one of your activists comes running through the door at 4:58pm on Friday, with a roomful of waiting press, waving a winning lottery ticket with a smudged date on it.
...
But what that means is this well known abortion activist, 5 to 7 days after speaking at an abortion rally received a winning lottery ticket.
And, speaking to your post rather than the article, I've gone over this at length too: you could rightly amend your story such that the activist who runs in with the ticket is also a lotto employee and they ran in with just a simple scratch-off ticket rather than a powerball/scratch-off combo ticket which would be much harder to forge.
I don't know what to make of all that, but there's clearly some other really ugly sides of this case that the press is nigh uninterested in exploring.
I'm fairly certain I know exactly why. The guy is a direct male relative and delving into the science is going to fuck up a lot of 'Trust The Science!', 'Muh Genderz!', and 'The Patriarchy!' narratives *and* make it look, as I said just above, awful easy for this activist doctor to have forged the whole thing. Better to focus on the lotto story as you described it without the obvious implication of forgery.
Being more clear, if the girl had been raped by a non-relative the case would be pretty much open-and-shut. Some unrelated person's DNA in the girl's uterus? 10 yrs. old... QED. However, if the girl had been raped by her father, approximately half the DNA coming out of her uterus is a direct (but not perfect) copy of his even if he never raped her. Moreover, if you're OB/GYN for both the girl *and her mother*, it's quite conceivable that you had access to the all the materials to make a forgery or collect a legitimate note that you could pass off as a forgery... whatever you needed.
Moreover, if you're OB/GYN for both the girl *and her mother*, it's quite conceivable that you had access to the all the materials to make a forgery or collect a legitimate note that you could pass off as a forgery... whatever you needed.
And, again, just as with the 'night of terror' story, you don't actually have to argue that the OB/GYN *did* do that, the OB/GYN isn't on trial. Just like the LAPD in the OJ trial, you just have to argue that the shadow of Kermit Gosnell is long enough to constitute a shadow of a doubt in Fuentes' case.
Yeah; but Gov-Gun Power-Mad freak jobs can't dictate everyone else's PERSONAL pregnancy so long as Roe v Wade existed....
Sh*tty-law was exactly what the [WE] dictators wanted...
And to think they also pretend to be about the LIMITED government party. Ha! What a joke.
Get help.
I am truly impressed by the gymnastics creeps like Diane will perform to justify embarrassing positions they have taken and continue to espouse no matter the overwhelming evidence that she is a gullible fool who gets her "news" from fellow traveling true believers.
Carry on - literally!
The abortion would have been allowed under Ohio law.
But it was legal in Indiana. That's why she had to go to Indiana to get an abortion. It isn't that hard to follow.
If the abortion was allowed under Ohio law, that means it was legal in Ohio, Dense Boy.
Leftists are always so fucking stupid.
And what's doubly funny is the press is trying to have it both ways.
The medical exception, they carefully wouldn't necessarily apply to the 10 yr old because... hey, it's a grey area whether or not pregnancy is dangerous to a 10 yr old. While at the same time, you can find reams of articles on the web about how dangerous it is to allow someone as young as 10 to give birth.
So which is it, Politifact and Washington Post... is it perfectly safe to deliver a baby at age 10 therefore making the medical exception in Ohio moot, or is it fraught with danger?
In this environment, would you want to perform an abortion in Ohio and hope the authorities read the language as permissive?
Republican politicians are harassing and threatening this doctor as it is.
For not reporting the rape of a ten year old girl. Not for performing the abortion.
You’re such a moronic liar. I suppose it’s the best you can do, with your 85 IQ.
That's a lie too. Not that the doctor's paperwork is the real issue here.
It's like you people don't actually have thoughts about anything. You just repeat lies you heard on FOX News. You don't examine them at all. Just pure regurgitation.
Of course. A doctor in a state with such draconian abortion laws could assume some grandstanding fanatic wouldn't try to take their medical license away if they performed an abortion outside of black letter law.
Or they could realize that would be stupid and send their patient to a state where it was plainly legal. Especially if they knew a doctor who wasn't afraid of fanatics.
There's nothing here but tragedy. The fact that it highlights the callousness and cruelty of abortion bans like Ohio's is a result of a callous and cruel law, not a conspiracy.
It will continue to happen because the tragic reality is that young children get raped (sometimes by relatives) and some will get pregnant. And by the time it's discovered (by them or someone else) it will most likely be too late.
If you don't like this story, buckle up. It will be repeated as long as states have 6 week bans with no exceptions. A constant drip, drip, drip showcasing anti-abortionist's kindness and decency.
You’re a ranting idiot. You basically said nothing, and just raved.
‘Fellow travelers’ refers to Marxists, you stupid faggot. And really, you’re the creep here. You’re pro grooming, pro child rape, and pro infanticide.
People like you should be in prison, or a landfill.
So, the outrage over the 10 year old is misplaced. First, the DNA test came back negative, a fact that was buried in the second to last paragraph in most stories. The fetus in question was not from the child.
Even ignoring that, Ohio law allowed an abortion, had the event actually occurred. The abortion ban allows exceptions when a doctor determines they are medically necessary. The terms of medical necessity are quite broad and generous, and are left, under the explicit wording of the law to the doctor's judgment.
A ten year old having a baby would present a serious risk of death or permanent injury. A doctor would be within his rights to perform the abortion, and literally no one would question him.
Dobbs didn't make bad law. It was correctly decided. Using a non-story to attack it is bad journalism.
Dobbs gave Gov-Guns authority in everyone's PERSONAL pregnancy... You just as well of said government doesn't make bad law.
...Cause of course 'people' are obviously unable to take care of themselves; Gov-Guns must save them from themselves!! /s
Roe was the judiciary making law. The judiciary can’t make law.
BULLSH*T!!!!! What law; A law that people have PERSONAL choices government cannot legislate away? Pro-Life morons just can't stop making sh*t up can they?
i.e. "The People's" law over their government... The U.S. Constitution?
Yeah….. you’re done. Just STFU and go sit in the corner. You aren’t capable of contributing to this discussion.
First, the DNA test came back negative, a fact that was buried in the second to last paragraph in most stories. The fetus in question was not from the child.
Wait what? You've got a source for this? Not that I don't believe you personally but everything about this case from day 1 is de facto incredible.
Yeah, I didn't want to touch that because it feels conspiracy theory-ish. But at this point, I no longer have enough post-it notes to scribble all the conspiracy theories that ended up true just between 2020-2022.
Then you should buy some post-it notes. You obviously didn't have any from 2020-2022.
And no, someone else's fetus wasn't implanted ito a 10-year-old girl. How credulous are you?
I came across a Christian trying to justify forced birth legislation by appealing to Aristotelian physics (something about potential form and blah blah blah). I now understand this to be an old argument among the forced birthers.
Aristotle, of course, lived in a culture where infanticide ("exposure") was accepted as the proper way to control the population. He recognized that some cultures might be against infanticide, and in those, abortion is of course the proper alternative.
Even less convincing is the appeal to liberalism: that embryos have newfound rights that ancient savages may not have recognized. Just like we found new rights for women and minorities, we've simply expanded the project. Amazing that the one time they've been in favor of expanding rights it's only for imaginary people at the expense of living ones. Stingy with those rights, aren't they?
Abortion is illegal infanticide. Infanticide is horrifically wrong.
The end.
Is an egg the same thing as a chicken?
Tony, this discussion concerns HETEROSEXUAL reproduction. Something completely alien to you monkeypoxed ways.
So fuck off.
There is no "attack on doctors", unless of course they murder babies
OMG! Doctors are murdering babies?? Maybe someone should call the cops..
Oh, whoops; You meant imaginary 'unicorns' in someone else's bodies doesn't (pieces of them).. Gosh I sure hope you don't use Gov-Guns to keep me from clipping off my finger-nails. Power-Mad Gov-Gun loving dictator.
You’ve got to quit slamming ‘gov-guns in every sentence. It makes you sound like Hank Phillips.
Is that what you’re going for.
Comment substance ZERO.
More substance than yours.
It's a sock of SQRLSY One.
Just outright lying now huh?
"Making matters worse, the law-abiding Indiana doctor who performed the abortion had her judgment questioned by her state's grandstanding attorney general, who raised the specter of legal action against the doctor."
Linker discredits himself, shows bias with this sentence, and his argument Dobbs is an "attack on doctors" is just false. Linker fails to mention, the Indiana doctor, failed to report the rape of a 10 year old to the authorities, as required.
The actual content of this article (intentionally ignored): Dobbs helped expose a doctor who didn't report the rape of a child to the authorities, as required by law.
Keep lying and she'll sue you for defamation too.
Republicans can't strategize their way out of a paper bag anymore. They know that this story makes them look terrible for passing all these unpopular, extremist abortion laws, so what do they do? Say they're going to attack the doctor who saved the child's life for failing to fill out paperwork correctly.
Keep it up. No no, by all means, please proceed.
What lie? You sound confused. Has the monkeypox further rotted your brain? Or did you contract GRID?
Ask your mother.
Why, did she have to give you the quarantine order?
Did you tell her while you two were shoe shopping?
"Linker fails to mention, the Indiana doctor, failed to report the rape of a 10 year old to the authorities, as required."
Probably because she did report it. To two different agencies. And documented it was abuse.
It's public record. It's really easy to find. Dozens of reputable journalists found it easily.
If you prefer your news from lefty Marxists who hate America, here's the National Review's article.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/indiana-doctor-filed-legally-required-report-about-rape-victims-abortion/
The statement "I had my judgement questioned by a granstander!" couldn't be more retardedly cartoonish if it were suffixed with "Well I never!". You can practically picture this person as an extra just sitting around the set of Caddyshack waiting to be offended by Rodney Dangerfield.
"Americans are rightly shocked by the news of a 10-year-old rape victim . . . . "
". . . . who had to cross state lines to lawfully terminate her pregnancy."
Is that really supposed to be the most outrageous and shocking part of this story? What about the fact that a 10 year old was raped? Is the perpetrator being brought to justice? That would seem to be the most newsworthy aspect of this story by a factor of 1,000. Not that she had to drive to the next county or whatever (which apparently she didn't even have to do).
A tangential aspect of the story: What environmental factors are contributing to the mysterious phenomenon of puberty starting earlier and earlier in girls over recent decades?