How Focusing on Rape-or-Incest Exceptions Distorts the Abortion Debate
The New York Times misleadingly claims that cases like the abortion sought by a 10-year-old Ohio rape victim "are not as rare as people think."

The horrifying case of a 10-year-old Ohio rape victim who crossed the border to Indiana for an abortion understandably attracted national attention. According to her doctor, the girl was six weeks and three days into her pregnancy. That put her beyond the window allowed by an Ohio law that prohibits abortion after fetal cardiac activity can be detected, which typically happens around six weeks. Ohio's ban makes an exception for a "medical emergency" but not for pregnancies resulting from rape or incest.
Such cases pose moral challenges to both opponents and supporters of abortion rights. Pro-life advocates who favor laws like Ohio's must confront the disturbing implications of forcing women and girls to bear their attackers' children. Pro-choice advocates, meanwhile, must contend with the counterargument that abortion in such circumstances compounds the original crime by victimizing another innocent person.
It was not hard to predict which side The New York Times would take in this debate. But a Times story published on Saturday, headlined "What New Abortion Bans Mean for the Youngest Patients," misleadingly conflates the issue of rape-or-incest exceptions, which rarely apply, with the much broader issue of abortions obtained for other reasons.
The Times story begins with the Ohio case: "She was just 10 years old, so young that many people were horrified when they heard it, and others refused to believe it. But the ordeal of the child rape victim in Ohio who had to cross state lines for an abortion, and the ugly political fight that followed, have highlighted two uncomfortable facts."
One of those "facts" seems incontrovertible: "New abortion bans are likely to have a pronounced impact on the youngest pregnant girls." But the other "fact" is much more dubious: "Such pregnancies are not as rare as people think."
Given the context, readers will tend to assume that Times reporters Dana Goldstein and Ava Sasani are talking about cases similar to the one they have just described. That impression is reinforced in the second paragraph, which focuses on rape-or-incest exceptions.
"New bans in nearly a dozen states do not make exceptions for rape or incest, leaving young adolescents—already among the most restricted in their abortion options—with less access to the procedure," Goldstein and Sasani write. "Even in states with exemptions for rape and incest, requirements involving police reports and parental consent can be prohibitive for children and teenagers."
The third paragraph also focuses on cases like the one in Ohio. "The situation out of Ohio is in no way unique," Indiana obstetrician-gynecologist Katie McHugh, a board member of Physicians for Reproductive Health, tells the Times. "This is a situation that every abortion provider has seen before."
But the rest of the story ranges far beyond that issue. Based on 2017 data collected by the pro-choice Guttmacher Institute, Goldstein and Sasani note, "there were 4,460 pregnancies among girls under 15, with about 44 percent ending in abortion." That amounts to 1,962 abortions in this age group, or about 0.2 percent of the total in 2017.
As The Washington Post notes, "abortions performed on patients younger than 15 in the country are extremely rare." And as Goldstein and Sasani concede, "It is unclear how often these pregnancies are the result of incest or rape." While "children in this age group are generally below the age of sexual consent," they note, "sexual contact between two similar-aged young teenagers is not always considered a crime," and "some states allow children to marry with parental permission."
After initially citing a 10-year-old rape victim, Goldstein and Sasani are now talking about abortions obtained by "young teenagers," an unknown fraction of which may have involved pregnancies resulting from rape or incest. In the 27th paragraph, they finally present data that seem more relevant: In Texas, where a ban similar to Ohio's took effect last September, "state records show over 200 children aged 15 and younger received abortions in 2021." Goldstein and Sasani add that "one of those patients was 11 or younger, and 30 were 12 or 13 years old."
In the second-most populous state, in other words, one girl who was about the age of the Ohio rape victim had an abortion in 2021, and the Times does not specify the circumstances of that pregnancy. Based on the Texas data, it looks like such cases are "as rare as people think," contrary to what Goldstein and Sasani imply in the first paragraph.
None of this makes the Ohio case less appalling. Nor does it detract from the undeniable burdens that laws like Ohio's impose on teenagers, or women of any age, who are forced either to carry an unwanted pregnancy or to seek an abortion elsewhere, regardless of how they became pregnant. But the specific issue raised by the Ohio case is the lack of an exception for rape or incest, which is how Goldstein and Sasani initially frame the story before expanding their focus. While that is a genuinely troubling issue, exaggerating its magnitude does a disservice to anyone trying to grapple with it honestly.
According to a 2005 Guttmacher Institute analysis of data from two surveys, 1 percent of women who had obtained abortions "indicated that they had been victims of rape, and less than half a percent said they became pregnant as a result of incest." The two surveys involved a total of about 12,000 women, a fifth of whom were 19 or younger. Their seemingly relevant findings are notably missing from the Times story. While the article quotes a pro-life Oklahoma legislator who describes the Ohio case as "an incredibly rare instance," it does not cite readily available data that back up her point.
Despite the rarity of such abortions, USA Today noted in 2019, "the battle over exceptions for [rape or incest] has garnered outsized attention in the national abortion debate." The story quoted abortion-law historian Mary Ziegler, who said "exceptions for rape and incest are much more 'symbolic than they are relevant,' given that they don't apply to the majority of women having abortions."
Ziegler elaborated on the symbolic significance of the debate about such exceptions. While there once was a "consensus" that "if you didn't include exceptions for rape and incest, politicians wouldn't go for it, voters wouldn't like it and the Supreme Court wouldn't tolerate it," she said, "what you see now is pro-life groups saying it's no longer a political necessity." Pro-choice groups, meanwhile, "see rape and incest exceptions as the canary in the coal mine when it comes to extremism. They argue [that] if you're willing to abandon these exceptions, then there's no saying when you're going to stop."
Now that the Supreme Court has decided that abortion bans are constitutionally tolerable, we have a clearer idea of how far pro-life politicians are willing to go. Some still see exceptions for rape or incest as either politically or morally obligatory. Utah's ban, for example, includes such exceptions. But the Times counts "nearly a dozen" states with bans that apply even in those cases.
According to Gallup, more than three-quarters of Americans think abortion should be legal in the first trimester when a pregnancy results from rape or incest. That overwhelming majority includes many Americans who describe themselves as pro-life.
In 2019, when South Carolina approved a six-week ban that did not make exceptions for rape or incest, Nancy Mace, then a Republican state legislator and now a U.S. representative, vigorously objected, citing her own experience as a 16-year-old rape victim. "I'm pro-life," she said. "I would choose life, and I would hope if it was my daughter she would choose life. But I also don't believe it's the government's right in cases of rape or incest to tell a woman what she should do with her body. It's abhorrent."
President Joe Biden, weighing in on the Ohio case, unsurprisingly took a similar view. "She was forced to have to travel out of the state to Indiana to seek to terminate the pregnancy and maybe save her life," Biden said. "Ten years old—10 years old!—raped, six weeks pregnant, already traumatized, was forced to travel to another state."
The contrary argument, that a rapist's crime does not justify sacrificing an innocent life, is logically consistent if you view abortion as tantamount to murder. But it is a tough sell, even among many people who are inclined to share that perspective.
James Bopp, general counsel at National Right to Life, addressed the Ohio case in an interview with Politico last week. If the 10-year-old girl had not obtained an abortion out of state, Bopp said, "she would have had the baby, and as many women who have had babies as a result of rape, we would hope that she would understand the reason and ultimately the benefit of having the child."
Bopp added that the model legislation he wrote for his organization "does propose exceptions for rape and incest…because that is a pro-life position, but it's not our ideal position. We don't think, as heart-wrenching as those circumstances are, we don't think we should devalue the life of the baby because of the sins of the father." Kristan Hawkins, president of Students for Life of America, likewise argues that "the violence of rape will not be cured by the violence of abortion."
Wherever you come down on that issue, we should be clear-eyed about how common such situations are and avoid conflating them with the much more frequent cases where girls and women seek abortions for other reasons. In the broader abortion debate, focusing on rape victims, let alone 10-year-old rape victims, is just as misleading as focusing on late-term abortions, which likewise account for a tiny share of the total.
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It's quite obvious few on either side understand the other, or want to. If you think it's a life, then how can the crimes of the parent(s) be taken into account? If you don't think it's a life, then it's irrelevant how the "clump of cells" came to be.
I agree. The pro life movement made those concessions because they just didn't have the balls to follow their convictions to their logical end. If you believe life begins before birth, then it begins before birth and the ability to end that life doesn't revolve around how the person was conceived.
How would you counter the famous violinist thought experiment argument in the case of rape?
I wouldn't. It makes a valid point.
Cases of pregnancy from rape are extremely rare.
The fact is that two wrongs don’t make a right.
The crime was rape. When pregnant the crime lasts for nine months. It isn’t prevented by murdering the second victim.
Rape pregnancies aren't that rare and there is only one victim.
The transgendered woman that the person with a uterus keeps misgendering as a man?
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I’m waiting for one of these more radical tranny men to start ranting about having a right to an abortion. I’m wondering how many news outlets will p,any along with something that inane.
Yeah they are that rare.
All these arguments are about personal values and morality, yet government is neither personal nor moral. What makes you so certain rape and murder is such a bad thing, when governments have used it judiciously in the past to dilute adversaries and build armies. What army are you trying to build? Allowing people to impose their morality on others will never work without (mortal) force if there isn't a consensus and there isn't one here. But then I don't have a pony in this clown show except to watch the weeds of ignorance blossom again.
There is a pretty clear consensus. And it isn't "No abortions" or "Abortions always and forever". If you want to identify the folks who don't want consensus, look no further than the people insisting they know what the other side thinks, and declaring that the other side really should do X if they think Y.
In the end, most abortions will be banned ~15 weeks in much of the country, sooner in Red America and later in Blue America. Because those areas have a political consensus.
Seems about right to me.
Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others.
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
Majority consensus was Roe v Wade...
Until; FREAK JOBS overturned it to Gov-Gun legislate their own personal religion on everyone else.
I approve of the use of lethal force to prevent murder.
You don’t? Are you sure?
Nazi shit returns! Using gas chambers this time, or just shooting?
Meh.
I wouldn’t throw insecticide pellets on the wet floors in crowded rooms with open air vents, doors and windows.
So you favor shootings?
At $.07, you aren’t worth any more.
Rob.......
"Don't murder my second 'unicorn'!!!!".... /s
Mythical Creature identity of Gov-Gun Power-Mad freak jobs.
Just gotta love how arrogant it is to claim someone else's pregnancy as one's own asset.
It becomes a rights balancing act if you believe conception is life. It isnt hard to realize you can still discuss the issue without having to be anti science in believing in a magic birth canal fairy. Or an arbitrary viability standard.
Life began billions of years ago. By "life" the educated mean the capacity to bring about a temporary, local decrease in entropy by means of electrochemical reactions.
Life has no real value to you, got it. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
This is who you’re responding to:
https://libertariantranslator.wordpress.com/who-is-hank-phillips/
Oh I’m well aware it’s Hank. He can’t restrain his peculiar writing style enough to obscure his identify. So I’m not sure why he bothers.
More fucked up than usual Hank. Did you make up this sock to cover up your accelerating mental decline?
He should have gone with ‘Abortion Grandpa’.
So, since you have "life" perfectly figured out in terms of thermodynamics, what "moral value" does human life have in light of the natural facts?
(If it's Hank, he'll give some bullshit overconfident answer based on something Ayn Rand once said.)
Political arguments aren't really about following philosophical lines of reasoning to their logical ends. There are factors of political feasibility, the meatgrinder of democratic compromise, logistics and enforceability that produce legislation that only approximate the consistent application of a set of moral principles.
To me, there could be hundreds of different reasons to have or not have an abortion..... which 1) I don't wish to parse and judge and 2) I don't think anyone else other than the pregnant person can parse.
But it can be worse - there are states that claim they will only go after the doctor. So a woman presents with an ectopic pregnancy (highly dangerous)... now find a skilled surgeon that can perform the abortion...
Just read an article about a woman who miscarriage (fetus was dead) and couldn't find anyone to do the abortion. 3 Ultrasounds confirming no heartbeat yet doctors still worried about being sued (Texas) - that even if they win the lawsuit, they loose. Can you imagine the same rules for gun manufacturers?
If the dead fetus isn't removed, there are more health complications including sterility and in extreme cases death.
did you just use the word 'pregnant person' in earnest?
I never thought i'd see one in the wild
Doubly hilarious because, in context, it's almost explicitly saying men don't have reproductive rights. The father, or society, has no say in the issue when a woman says she's pregnant as the result of rape.
It's really getting to dad joke levels of absurdity:
Kid: "Dad, have you seen Mom?"
Dad: "Mom? Let's see... Mom. You mean the person who's in their mid 40s, 5'6" tall, 130 lbs. with long, blond hair, blue eyes, two X chromosomes, a vagina, carrying around less than 50% of the eggs she had in her 20s, and drapes that don't match the curtains if you know what I mean?"
Kid: "Ew! Gross! But, yeah, her."
Dad: "No, I haven't seen the parental unit you indicated."
Wow. People get so triggered by even hearing something that alludes to the possibility of transgender people. As for me, I don't care. Live your life.
Why are you fine with people determining the corruption of language you are forced to use? Is it only for the trans community? Or can we force you to use other adjectives for our selfish whims as well?
Correct use of the possessive pronoun goood. But whutabout the transbonation into the wrong body surgery clients? Where do they protest? WIth or against the doctor-killers?
“transbonation”
Ok Hank, translate that one for me please, you crazy fuck.
Hospice should be aborting you any day now.
So, no issues for you if you get involved romantically with someone, and then find out, in that magic moment, that the plumbing does not match the facade?
I've never, literally until about 10 yrs. ago, never seen people get so triggered by pregnant women choosing to be referred to as pregnant women. 'Pregnant persons' doesn't allude to the possibility of transgender people. It either means 'pregnant women', 'pregnant women and their husbands/male partners', or it robs men and women of their agency to defend probably the most abstract, imaginary, and meaningless of social constructs.
You do care. Otherwise, you would've shut the hell up and let people live their lives.
Transgendered people dont have to be acknowleded and/or shoehorned into every conversation, every topic, every aspect of life - especially when they have no skin in the game
The exact technical term is individual.
An ectopic pregnancy is unsustainable, there will be no baby at the end, regardless of the actions of any physician, so I wouldn't anticipate that to be any ethical roadblock for anyone, ever.
It isn't an abortion if the fetus is dead or the pregnancy is unsustainable as it would be in an ectopic pregnancy. While I also don't wish to parse things out, these arguments are red herrings.
Except they're not. Extremists are already forwarding bills that propose no exception abortion bans. Pregnancy becomes a suicide pact.
It is not an ethical roadblock.
It is an unethical roadblock: the fear is that while the abortion is medically necessary, that the prosecutor will see it differently, and then they'll have go to court and hope they can convince twelve randos --who may know very little about medicine and biology-- that they're right and the prosecutor is crazy.
It's called a D&C. It's illegal now in some places. In other words, you will get prosecuted for receiving a medical procedure that saved your life. We're in crazy times. The libertarian position on this is that the government has no business involving itself in your private medical decisions. Not everyone on here is a libertarian though.
"your private medical decisions"
You assume the conclusion.
The true premise is that the person whom fanatics want to threaten with guns is an individual with rights. No circularity there, absent mystical brainwashing.
Yes, yes, we all know how much you want to murder babies. Now go eat your pudding.
"In other words, you will get prosecuted for receiving a medical procedure that saved your life."
This is absolutely untrue.
Well, it might have saved your vacation or your relationship, and that's worth it, right?
The baby is in fact an individual. You are treating it as if it is property. How long does your view last for? Until they can hunt and kill their own food?
Here Jesse, this may help you down the road -
Definition of baby (Entry 1 of 3)
1a(1): an extremely young child
especially : INFANT
(2): an extremely young animal
Definition of zygote
: a cell formed by the union of two gametes
broadly : the developing individual produced from such a cell
Definition of fetus
: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind
Would ya look at that? Words have actual meaning no matter the attempted misuse for rhetorical purposes, who woulda thought! So why should we give a shit about the opinion of someone who doesn't know the difference between a zygote and a "baby"?
Hey shitlib, how come your side can't get more than 20% for abortion on demand after 50 years of Roe?
doesnt matter if they can get a 20% commission on the clump of cells body parts market .
really trying to get your millage out of that straw man, i see.
No, it is definitely not illegal, you moron
That's the Anschluss christianofascist Trojan horse position. The LP position, and of the Buffalo and Human Rights parties at the same time, was to repeal laws cruelly coercing pregnant individuals. NARAL is the new Libertarian.
I think you are using 'cruel' incorrectly here.
"It's illegal now in some places."
What state has made non-viable pregnancy terminations illegal?
Dilation and curettage is a common medical procedure that can be an abortion method but has many other purposes. It is not illegal anywhere in the US as long as there is no living fetus involved. Similarly, the ectopic pregnancy canard is false - treatment is legal throughout the country.
There might be room for some debate about whether the abortion for the ten year old girl would be legal in Ohio but the language and the science involved fall heavily on the side of it being permitted there.
Ohio AG David Yost went on TV and said that the abortion would have been legal.
"It is not an ethical roadblock.
It is an unethical roadblock: the fear is that while the abortion is medically necessary, that the prosecutor will see it differently, and then they'll have go to court and hope they can convince twelve randos --who may know very little about medicine and biology-- that they're right and the prosecutor is crazy."
Given that ectopic pregnancies are, by definition, not viable ---- then it does not run afoul of any proposed abortion regulations.
It is an unethical roadblock: the fear is that while the abortion is medically necessary, that the prosecutor will see it differently, and then they'll have go to court and hope they can convince twelve randos --who may know very little about medicine and biology-- that they're right and the prosecutor is crazy.
I agree that we should prosecute, convict, and criminally/civilly punish unethical prosecutors per the norms of judicial process. My agreement is, in no way, limited to women or abortions and, in fact, extends to false accusations of rape against men (and women) as well as all sorts of other crimes prosecuted within the judicial system.
Except bills have already been forwarded in Louisiana and Idaho with no exception abortion bans. And doctors in texas are refusing to take patients that need abortions for miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies because there are enough crazies out there to sue even when the abortion is absolutely required.
Your stupidity knows no bounds
As well as the stupidity of so many Americans. No wonder the country is falling apart. We can’t even define life or biology!
Well, some can, even if it their definition is extremely strict and not necessarily supported by science. Others will wave their hands and cause misdirection if you ask them.
It still leaves the empirical ascribing of who's a a principled, religious fundamentalist and who believes "Science is real" pretty nebulous, even if the implications of their morals isn't.
"Just read an article about a woman who miscarriage (fetus was dead) and couldn't find anyone to do the abortion."
Because no one would consider the procedure she actually needed an abortion.
Doctors shouldn't be activists.
They procedure to remove a dead fetus and a live fetus are essentially identical. Many women who have miscarriages have D&C as follow-up.
"...Just read an article about a woman who miscarriage (fetus was dead) and couldn't find anyone to do the abortion. 3 Ultrasounds confirming no heartbeat yet doctors still worried about being sued (Texas) - that even if they win the lawsuit, they loose..."
How about the purple unicorns? Did you read about them?
It's such a confusion of plain English it almost sounds like a joke:
The Law: If there's no heartbeat, it's not an abortion.
Doctor No. 1: We can't find a heartbeat, which means it's not an abortion, but we won't perform an abortion.
Doctor No. 2: We can't find a heartbeat, which means it's not an abortion, but we won't perform an abortion.
Doctor No. 3: We can't find a heartbeat, which means it's not an abortion, but we won't perform an abortion.
Doctor No. 4: Uh, ma'am, you do realize you're in a podiatrist's office, right?
An exceedingly generous interpretation is that they're upset that 3 different ultrasound technicians wouldn't perform an abortion, which would be pretty analogous to some disgraced doctor cramming a coat hanger up there in a back alley.
I’ve always wondered how a coat hanger abortion is performed. I mean, how do you get the baby out afterwards?
Asking for a friend.
What's the difference between a regular miscarriage and a coat hanger abortion? After a regular miscarriage, you still have a place to hang your coat.
Or were you asking for your friend in earnest?
Just read an article about a woman who miscarried and couldn't find anyone to do the abortion
I give it 1.5 out of 5 stars, would not watch again. The acting had potential but the writing was derivative and just not up to the standards of even a bad actress in a story about a mother who wanted the baby, or even several, and miscarried, let alone all the stories about people born infertile, having infertility thrust upon them by circumstances outside of their control or, worse, combinations of having actual children and losing both the children and their fertility. I mean, yeah, it's a tragedy the main character had to walk down the street or ride for a couple hours in a car and talk to a couple of different people in order to abort the consequences of their voluntary actions but let's not pretend they're Uma Thurman in the Kill Bill movies or they watched their only son get nailed to a cross to save humanity or anything.
"doctors still worried about being sued "
Private doctors making private decisions in response to market forces.
LIBERTARIAN MOMENT
Lynch mobs are market forces? Insurance companies know all about commie enlistment of mindless fanatical hypochondriacs eager to resort to barratry to stop nuclear energy from increasing the life expectancy of populations.
And here Libertariantranslator is definitively revealed to be Hank Phillips.
It was revealed with his very first comment. Hank has a very distinctive form of word salad.
"So a woman presents with an ectopic pregnancy (highly dangerous)... now find a skilled surgeon that can perform the abortion..."
An abortion requires a VIABLE pregnancy.
What's a "viable" pregnancy? Go on. Please define it.
Does it include ectopic pregnancies? If not, why not? Does it include infants that will die within hours or days of birth? Does it include fetuses that test positive for serious genetic or developmental disorders that would invariably lead to an extremely and unquestionably diminished quality of life (little more than just human vegetables)? Does it include those with Down syndrome? How about those with six fingers or flat feet?
I'll play...
No, because there is a 0.00% chance that the pregnancy will run to term and deliver a live birth.
Yes, because these scenarios - although some are extremely tragic - all require an actual live birth to occur.
I think that abortion in some of those instances is morally justifiable. I think that abortion in all of those cases should be legal up to 14.3 weeks, even the ones I would find morally unjustifiable. But they all terminate the potential for a live birth while treatment of an ectopic pregnancy does not.
A viable pregnancy requires the POSSIBILITY of a live birth.
Ectopic does not provide that. At all.
Why does the "possibility" of a human passing through a vagina matter whether it can be aborted? Does the reality of a human passing through a vagina have any bearing on whether the human can be killed? Is the vagina magical or not?
You’re probably lying, or the article is bullshit.
Ectopic pregnancy removal or miscarriage removal are not abortions you lying POS. As for not parsing the reasons for an abortion (98% convenience) that's just a cowardly dodge no different from saying people have reasons to murder and you're not going to parse or judge them.
The procedure for ending an ectopic pregnancy is not abortion.
It is not covered at all by any of this.
The activists are counting on you not knowing that.
But here's a clue--if it CAN be aborted normally, it CAN'T be ectopic.
"To me, there could be hundreds of different reasons to have or not have an abortion..... which"
1) I don't wish to parse and judge and
2) I don't think anyone else other than the pregnant person can parse.
That's a very honorable approach.
Only Power-Mad freak jobs require Gov-Gun to FORCE their opinions on others.
So, in your opinion, there is simply no way to parse a moral distinction between a poor woman seeking abortion because she was raped, struggling with severe depression, and is destitute working multiple jobs, and a rich woman seeking abortion because she's a degenerate with a pregnancy fetish but doesn't actually want a pesky kid around to put a damper on her wild sex life? Are you really going to claim moral agnosticism just because you're afraid of drawing the ire of purple-haired "abortion on demand and without apology!" feminists?
Even if you think it’s a life it’s relevant in the case of rape if you buy into the famous violinist thought experiment argument (for rape). Does anyone have any holes to shoot into that argument? I haven’t seen any counter arguments that hold water.
You can unplug yourself from the violinist, but only in the first 15 weeks.
Or.
The Violinist was the aggressor and you can shot the violinist in the head.
Or.
You are stuck with the violinist for 40 weeks, but you get to shoot the doctor in the head, and the people who drugged you get life in prison for felony murder.
Did I miss a scenario?
^^^
Strangle the violinist with his own violin strings. Strangle the doctor with his own feeding tube. Force the violinist groupies to watch scenes of graphic violence while listening to violin concertos.
The violinists argument (as described here) is so ass backwards and detached from reality, it's (not really) surprising people think it holds water. To the point that, if you look at it framed appropriately, you'd almost think it was planted by a pro-life advocate. Long story short, The "Society of Fetuses" has never kidnapped a fetus into a single mother's womb (OK, maybe, arguably, one), if the Society of Music Lovers kidnapped you and attached you to a violinist and you or the violinist or both died, we'd no-shit convict them, all of them, of kidnapping *and* murder.
I could go on at length but two other main points:
1. Thompson's argument, by her own words, isn't a defense of abortion just in the case of rape, but a defense of all abortion using an abjectly and, even by libertarian standards, reprehensible twisted distortion of consent (adults, humans, fetuses, other), contract law (unequivocal first parties IRL are treated as third parties in the analogy), biology, and criminal law (with ethics and morality rolled in).
2. Again, completely ass-backwards (and I can't stress this enough). The 'victim' in Thompson's example just 'wakes up' attached to the violinist. If there's any party who just 'wakes up' in a pregnancy, it's the fetus. Her argument's nearest actual biological analog would be the (presumably) retardedly obvious answer to the question "Should we save the life of a fetus attached to a dying mother?"
I understand and actually agree with some of the underlying precepts that Thompson is supposedly trying to get at, but the analogy is just terrible. Terrible to the point that it almost seems deliberately wrong and it makes me question not just if (some) pro-life women don't understand logic, but that if I'm not wrong to regard their arguments as, in any way, sensible. Like they're so caught up in the twisted knot of their own thinking they don't realize they're effectively claiming to be Napoleon or Lincoln. And that's pretty much where I'm at with The Violinist Argument, case closed. However, it keeps coming up from otherwise reasonable people who, effectively, keep asking "What if these women really are Napoleon?"
reprehensible twisted distortion of consent (adults, humans, fetuses, other)
OK, getting rant-y but there is a particularly egregious issue here:
In the analogy, to translate to pregnancy or rape, you have to, one way or the other, assume all humans don't have agency. That is, the analogy explicitly states a kidnapping and even rolls the consent up with the kidnapping. Translating to reality, it's an attempt to confine your rights to specific biological functionality and, more specifically, limit them to a lack thereof. Either your right not to be kidnapped applies when you're unconscious or, effectively, you have no right to perform any biological function.
It's like the former Chicago Police Commissioner saying, 'Gangs kill gang members who lose guns, to combat gun crime, we need to have similarly harsh penalties for law abiding citizens who lose guns.' Sorry, Thompson, sorry Commiss, even if I agree with what you say in part or on some principle, you've crossed the Rubicon *and* stared into the abyss for too long.
I just read this “famous” argument the for first time. My impression is that it was dreamed up by a pretentious idiot. A closer analogy would be that the woman, through her own reckless actions, put the violinist in a position where he needs life support for 40 weeks.
And why does the guy have to be a violinist anyway? Probably to give this alleged thought experiment the veneer of legitimacy, as though it were the creation by someone with culture and learning.
If this is what passes for intellectualism among abortionists, I am sad for you.
On the contrary. I think they fail to understand their own side.
There is the willful denial by the "clump of cells" faction that elective abortions are legal in the third trimester and they do occur. Rich white liberals refuse to believe they would ever do such a thing, therefore it doesn't exist.
Likewise few people on the pro-life side really grok the "IVF is murder" crowd and how harsh the trigger laws can be.
*most* people agree that it begins as a "clump of cells" and transitions to a "baby". And this transition occurs prior to birth.
We’re all ‘clumps of cells’.
If it's a person it can survive separate (as an individual)...
Common-sense is actually wildly apparent on the abortion debate; It's just Pro-Life B.S. propaganda trying to confuse and brain wash everyone.
Maybe pro-life libertarians can offer family counseling.
I'd say even if you agree its a life, in the case of a rape terminating the pregnancy would be justifiable homicide.
pregnancy is not a trivial thing. The woman has zero obligation to the fetus to assume the risks.
I understand the progtard death cult just fine. Infanticide is a sacrament to them.
Even one case of a child being impregnated, either by rape/incest or otherwise (mutual consent seems out of the question), one case is too many! A child's body is not able to withstand the rigours of pregnance and childbirth, let alone her mental situation.
Turning girls and women into hunted criminals, imprisoned by their bodies, is not only cruel it is immoral and beyond rational belief but, alas, supported by a religious belief that puts a fanastic story before lived realities.
Perhaps execute child-rapists? Then maybe there won't be so much pressure to abort their children, who could be adopted and wouldn't have to know about their father until they're much older.
What-ya-talkin'-about?
Even if the cops investigate and arrest the rapist (they have a bad habit of not doing this), even if the jury convicts (and juries are notorious for not considering rape to be rape in many cases), even if the judge doesn't go dumb-as-fuck (and give community service for a month because he doesn't want to "ruin a young man's life")...
Even if you avoid all those perils and get a conviction and a sentence... it takes decades to execute someone. That kid will be able to vote before their dad will be dead.
Just outlaw them then.
Yeah, it really sucks that accused rapists have due process rights, and rape is notoroiously difficult to prove because there is often no evidence of the crime, and that sometimes juries find in favor of the accused instead of just believing women.
Due-process protections are good.
Let's see...who else might benefit from extensive due-process rights before being killed?
If you're of the opinion that the criminal justice system should be circumvented to execute a rapist before the baby is born?
Then yes, for The Margrave of Azilia due process does "suck".
My little joke was that the fetus could do with a bit of due process.
The accusation against the alleged rapist is serious, so serious crimes require serious proof...the accusation against the fetus is that...its existence is such a Bad Thing as to warrant being killed...due process should require serious proof in such cases, I would think.
Tell it to your daughter Margaret but mind your own business with other people's daughters.
Fuck off and die, Asshole.
20%, Joe Fuckface.
Funny, you always want to control everyone’s life in every other area. So stop with your inane bullshit.
Well, a pregnancy results in incontrovertible proof of guilt
guilt of having sex maybe - not necessarily rape
I’m sure if you polled every person whose existence was the product of rape, near 100% of them would prefer not to be aborted.
How about you poll all those 'unborn' people who were never born because nobody had sex to begin with???
dur, uh... Welcome to 'Teds' fantasy land 101.
Take an issue, cherry pick some extreme example, then argue against it as if it's normal.
phish was in Bangor this weekend you should have gone.
Lemonwheel was enough for me. It's not like Megadeth where I left the show a fan. I left that show drained from being on drugs for days while retching from the stench of patchouli oil. I don't want to do that again.
So far I'm 0 for 2 on concerts this year. Foo Fighters canceled for obvious reasons. Then Garbage canceled NH and ME for unspecified medical reasons. Hope Metric comes through.
Did I just argue against an extreme example as if it was normal?
Maybe. Still would have been a parking lot full of drugs and the ever present hippy stench.
Did you go?
no I'm doing Alpine Valley in August. I listened to the Bangor show yesterday afternoon it was pretty special
If the absolute number of cases matters (rather than the principle) a law permitting the killing of Reason magazine writers with birth-year-trendy names would be constitutional? Deeply disappointing for a libertarian to take this view.
"Abortion On Demand and No Apology" What are we, her slaves?
And I don't think that woman needs to worry about anyone getting anything anywhere near her ovaries.
It used to be prochoice. Now they're hovering between "abortion care" and "shout your abortions."
So much for "safe, legal, and rare." The social left now wants to destigmatize abortion in every instance, rebranding the act itself as empowerment and an exercise in birthing people's liberation.
How do you know she wasn't a Pro-Life plant?
Besides, just because the government acknowledges some right on you, doesn't mean you can exercise that right without other consequences.
How do you know she wasn't a Pro-Life plant?
Now I suspect you are a plant. No one can be these stupid.
He’s definitely a vegetable.
Because you abortion fanatics almost all look the same?
"Abortion On Demand and No Apology" What are we, her slaves?
I don't think she's considered the full ramifications of her policy in opposition to people who see murder and abortion as synonyms.
I think you overestimate the standards of men in general. Any woman can find some man who will gladly do the necessary to get her knocked up if she's willing to lower her standards enough.
https://ifunny.co/picture/Y58H1FFq8
and less than half a percent said they became pregnant as a result of incest."
Why is an exception for incest even in the conversation? Unless force is involved it is consensual sex, just like any other case of irresponsible individuals who can't be bothered to use birth control properly.
If it is about the potential for birth defects then I look forward to all the pro-choice eugenicists arguing that any lump of fetal tissue with abnormalities should be aborted. Just in case.
"irresponsible individuals who can't be bothered to use birth control properly"
If it's a person, then how it got here is less important than the fact it *is* here. If there's a rapist, try him and, if convicted, execute him (at least for child rape). See, you get to kill someone.
Child or violent rape. Stocks for date rapists.
Young teens are physiologically capable of having children but are unlikely to have easy access to contraceptives. Nor are they likely to have been taught, or otherwise learned, to deal with the consequences of sex.
Sex ed in elementary and you still believe that ?
The issue is whether goons with service pistols are empowered to declare women secondary and inferior unpersons within minutes of having had sex. The initiators of deadly force say YES, and struggle to believe that threats of deadly force against an individual person is something other than anti-life. The whole point is to have the political State declare individuals unpersons --as did other socialist fanatical régimes.
Your example is unimpressive. On average 2 of 1000 women would fall within your parameters. So the other 998 are child murders. What do we do with them ?
the reason it is part of the conversation is kind of what you allude to......
a large percentage of the pro life crowd don't actually give two fucks about the life of the fetus..... they blame the women for getting pregnant, and want to punish them for trying to deal with that in a manner other than having a baby. many of them are not comfortable punishing the woman when the pregnancy is actually not her fault at all.
rape is the clearest case where people who want to blame the woman can't hold on to that anger. some are consistent, and will still say they child must be born, but most reveal their hypocrisy and allow that there should be an exception..... because forcing women to act the way you think they should has always been the point, more than the life of the child has ever been.
I wouldn't fuck any of them.
Yeah, but Long Dong would.
Long Duck Dong? He number one super guy!
"The New York Times misleadingly claims..."
I read their daily briefing every morning, just for shits and giggles.
Looking at that picture, I am reminded of a remark by Rush Limbaugh: "These women protesting for abortion, who the hell would want to have sex with them in the first place?"
Contrariwise and obversely, how many of the christianofascist creeps mobbing the Commentariat, or screeching and firing into clinics, would a sane female want to mate with? Rush Limburger is a serendipitously noisome example!
Rush got more chicks than your faggoty old ass ever did.
“serendipitously noisome”
Which of these words do you not understand?
Abortion on Demand and Without Apology. Apparently that's the approach pro-choicers are going for. It's a weirdly extreme position.
Sullum boots another one. The Ohio law considers the pregnancy of a 10 year old to qualify for the medical emergency exception. The girl in question could legally have gotten her abortion in OH.
Now the question is, was taking her to IN purposely done to put the OH law in a bad light, like gullible Mr Sullum did?
Or maybe taking her to Indiana was an attempt by the mother to hide the identity of the rapist, since it was her own boyfriend.
^This^
Incorrect.
You have had one politician (the AG I think?) in Ohio say it would count under the "life of the mother" exception, but the law itself does not have an age exception. So the abortionist would have to rely on the prosecutor deciding to not prosecute, and if they do, that they would then be able to persuade the jury that it was necessary.
You know, because prosecutors and juries have such a good history of understanding medical issues.
Or, to put it another way... why should an abortionist rely on the good faith of a prosecutor that calls them a child-murderer?
If there's a life of the mother exception, and if that didn't apply in this case, then assuming as prolifers do that the fetus is a person, there would be no more justification for killing the fetus than for putting it in prison - the rapist should be the one paying any penalty applicable to the crime.
The girl might survive taking the child to term with a lot of damage to her body. Carrying the rapists baby to term would also cause a lot of mental trauma. And at the end she has this unwanted baby.
The belief that life begins at conception is a belief. It should not be grounds for ruining the lifes of others who don't share that belief.
A kluge might be to declare it a medical exorcism. I have observed that the one thing soi-disant "Christians" do believe in is Satan, and not the teachings that say to give your all to the needy and go preach. So the tax-funded Lutheran stake-burning heretic hunter suddenly needs to prove to a jury that there is no Devil!
I was of the impression that life/health of the mother would apply under the Ohio law. But having read some summaries of the statute it appears to be pretty vague on exactly what constitutes an exception. So I can understand the reluctance of an Ohio doctor in this case especially since getting the child across a state line is no big deal. I would hope that the states take a hard look at the actual language in these trigger laws now that they are actually enforceable.
It certainly helps the rapist and pro-choice positions so I'm sure that figured into the abortionists thoughts just a bit.
There is a life of the mother exception which applies.
There is a rape or incest exception which applies.
"because prosecutors and juries have such a good history "
Why go there.
Civil forfeiture started off as stripping high level drug kingpins of their cars and yachts. Now its every state trooper leaning into the car on a traffic stop and asking if you're carrying any large sums of cash.
Production of Child porn was prosecuting sleazy gold chain wearing scumbags coercing girls to take nudes. Now they prosecute the girls who take nudes of themselves to share with their boyfriends.
Prosecutors overreach to show off. Always. The doctor was right to consider the law the minimum the prosecutor would enforce.
Of course it was. The person who referred her called the duration of her pregnancy to the day. Since that is not possible, she could have just as easily went with 5 weeks 6 days. She knew this was too perfect.
A rape has a very specific time of occurrence. Lie about that for the purpose of fitting into a BS window means the rape case is undermined
"Mom of 10-year-old Ohio girl who got abortion defends child’s rapist"
https://nypost.com/2022/07/15/mom-of-10-year-old-ohio-girl-who-got-abortion-defends-rapist/
"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best," Trump said. “They're not sending you…They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists."
Et tu Guatamala?
Similar case in Brazil just now. The Christian National Socialist caudillo wants the doctors coercively "investigated..."
Do you understand you’re considered a pathetic joke by absolutely everyone here?
It seems to me, and this doesn't really have much bearing on anything, that the people screaming the loudest about access to abortion services are also the same people who would never get an abortion themselves and probably consider it stigmatizing or disgusting if they think about it in terms of white middle class ladies getting one instead of some black teen on the wrong side of the tracks.
Hell, it seems that a lot of the ladies screaming about it aren't even into men at all which drops their probability of needing an abortion to zero in the first place.
Remember the poem: "First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew." With the current iteration of Christian National Socialism declaring women unpersons at conception, then slaves of non-individuals, 9th, 14th 14th Amendments be damned, now it goes: "First they came for the individuals...
"That put her beyond the window allowed by an Ohio law that prohibits abortion after fetal cardiac activity..."
I just don't understand the fixation on heartbeats. Why is that the defining criteria? I don't think we use the presence or absence of a heartbeat to determine if someone is alive or dead in any other medical context. And it doesn't matter if an embryo has a heartbeat if it doesn't have a functioning placenta, brain, liver, and a million other parts.
To me, this clearly indicates a decision based on visceral emotion, not any sort of logic. Heartbeats feel immediate. Each of us can tell our heart is beating. We can't directly tell our kidneys are filtering or neurons are firing. But medically speaking, a heartbeat (especially at six weeks) is just one of a number of other necessary development milestones.
Invasion of the Body Snatchers 2 was a pro-individual-rights movie. An hour and a bit into it a pod is reproducing Donald Sutherland. Among the sound effects is a heartbeat, just as the replacement non-person is "crowning." Combatting that imagery must be priority for christian nationalsocialist Lebensborn brainwashers. In the next scene he takes a shovel to the copy of his own self. Imagine the shrieks! The monsters almost had control of a preprogrammed unperson to do their bidding, but knowledge of the truth set the intended victim free!
it is completely based on emotion in an attempt to move the goal posts. now that the viability standard is gone, they want to see how close to a total ban they can push things.
You’ve lost. Get used to it. Your kind have no place in a free country.
"...The New York Times misleadingly claims that cases like the abortion sought by a 10-year-old Ohio rape victim "are not as rare as people think."..."
Real post-graduate class in weasel-words right there.
I've noticed that among people who raise "but what about rape and incest", not a single one of them is ever willing to actually compromise to that position. Many pro-life people are.
The extremes are what the left goes for in every argument.
A dozen or so states have already passed trigger laws that don't have exceptions for rape or incest. So please do yap about the reasonableness of the prolife crowd.
Yes, but a lot of those were largely symbolic at the time of passing. Let's see how well those extremely restrictive statutes hold up now that State legislatures have to contend with passing laws that actually mean something to the people of that State rather than passing laws meant to signal their virtue in the face of Federal tyranny.
My guess is that after it all shakes out, every state will have rape/incest/health-of-the-mother exemptions and nothing more restrictive than a 6 week ban, and even that will only be a handful of places (TX, OK, etc...)
6 week ban? LMAO most women don't even know they're pregnant until week 7 or 8 lol. You truly don't know much about women's anatomy, do you?
I’d say the average time that a woman should suspect something’s up is about 4 weeks; careless sex immediately followed by a missed period.
But if you add in a few more weeks for the denial stage before she finally breaks down and buys a pregnancy test, you’re probably about right.
Coercive girl-bulliers are anti-life, morally the same as rapists.
Wow! now THATS a convincing argument! That should change hearts and minds.
This cretin writes:
"Pro-choice advocates, meanwhile, must contend with the counterargument that abortion in such circumstances compounds the original crime by victimizing another innocent person."
No we don't. The choice is the girls and her family you stupid fuck. Mind your own God damn business and quit pretending to be a libertarian who is defending births forced by the states.
They're much easier to kill if you pretend they aren't people.
I'm not advocating killing the writer. An embryo is not a person nor is a fetus, but if you want to believe it, make your wife and daughter behave accordingly. I won't try to make them have an abortion.
Fuck off and die, Asshole.
An embryo is not a person nor is a fetus, but if you want to believe it, make your wife and daughter behave accordingly.
They're much easier to pretend to tell what to do and kill if they disobey if they aren't people.
It's funny that you retards don't seem to grasp the concept that the fetus and even the mother's gender is largely immaterial, and still continue to frame the argument as "The fetus' rights or women's rights, pick one." The idea that the fetus *and* the women *and men* have the same right(s), inextricably, seems beyond your comprehension. To the point that you'll overtly and openly ignore the past 50 yrs. of your own arguments in favor of public accommodation that says you can't toss people out in the cold to die, 50+ yrs. of public health law that says you can't refuse to treat someone dying of a medical disease if it will directly and acutely result in their death, ignore the last couple centuries of science, and ignore the last couple million years of physical natural phenomenon to pretend women aren't women, men aren't men, and humans aren't human.
You aren't even willing to, or maybe even capable of, giving a minute's pause before outing yourselves as morally subjective homicidal idiots. The pro-lifers are at least mostly willing to say "OK, there are cases where if a drifter comes into your home or your womb and passively represents a threat to your life or your family, such as if they carry a disease, it's OK to evict them even if that eviction results in their death." They may not agree that the drifter should die, but they can at least understand that the homeowner's rights and the drifter's rights are equivalent and derived from the same source even if reality forces the choice. You fundamentalists can't even muster or accept that level of objective recognition or debate and don't even realize that your fundamentalism, again inextricably, puts you in the company of the most murderous, ideologically twisted, and backwater terrorists.
Dude, your religious belief that a person exists at conception means that God is murdering the 30% of embryos and fetuses destroyed by miscarriages. Again, you can work on the females in your family to believe your nonsense - so can I - but I won't try to get a law passed to make them do what I believe.
Mind your own ducking business and keep your creepy religion out of other people's lives.
Mind your own ducking business and keep your creepy religion out of other people's lives.
I'm sorry you hate yourself because you recognize that, while Christians hold the dumbest notions about science, reality, and birth and conception, their backwater notion of sacrificing just one life to save billions means, you'll never be able to hold a candle to them morally or intellectually because you want to sacrifice millions of lives, not just for no particular reason at all, but for no particular reason that you yourself, by your own tenets, aren't even allowed to have one way or the other.
English next time please.
This from someone who never minds his business. Sorry, abortion is infanticide and you soulless, unclean ghouls will be stopped.
Sorry dude, not in your church and I don't believe embryos and fetuses are infants. Your welcome to your beliefs but mind your own ducking business and quit trying to get the state to enforce your religion on everyone.
I’m agnostic, so stop with your anti religious bullshit. It isn’t even relevant to me. I discuss scientific fact. Not progtard propaganda, as you do. What passes for thinking for you is a product of your subnormal brain.
But you’re too stupid to understand any of that.
Ted, neither a "person" or "baby" are scientific terms. The 1st is a legal term, the 2nd does not include fetuses
As to your agnosticism, crap or get off the pot. Do you make decisions based on the possibility that a spirit is watching you and keeping score or not. I can't prove such a being does not exist but that doesn't keep me from saying it's bullshit.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults.
Not a one of his posts is worth refuting; like turd he lies and never does anything other than lie. If something in one of Joe Asshole’s posts is not a lie, it is there by mistake. Joe Asshole lies; it's what he does.
Joe Asshole is a psychopathic liar; he is too stupid to recognize the fact, but everybody knows it. You might just as well attempt to reason with or correct a random handful of mud as engage Joe Asshole.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults; Joe Asshole deserves nothing other.
Eat shit and die, Asshole.
Again, the LP Population planks of 1972 and 1976 urged repeal of laws sending men with guns to coerce doctors and pregnant women for 100 days. Both entities thus temporarily relieved of endangerment by initiation of deadly force are "persons." Persons are that the Constitution is about. The Bill of Rights protects actual persons, individuals, from threats and attacks by fanatics and madmen whether their invisible fiend is Mohammed or Oral Roberts.
Yes, you have all kinds of irrational ideas to justify infanticide. Now why don’t you go play in traffic.
Not infanticide, it's an abortion. You can only do "infanticide" on infants and not embryos. Get with the science and not the MAGA irrationalities.
No, it’s biological fact. Something you can’t understand.
I'm not advocating killing the writer. An embryo is not a person nor is a fetus, but if you want to believe it, make your wife and daughter behave accordingly. I won't try to make them have an abortion.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults.
Not a one of his posts is worth refuting; like turd he lies and never does anything other than lie. If something in one of Joe Asshole’s posts is not a lie, it is there by mistake. Joe Asshole lies; it's what he does.
Joe Asshole is a psychopathic liar; he is too stupid to recognize the fact, but everybody knows it. You might just as well attempt to reason with or correct a random handful of mud as engage Joe Asshole.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults; Joe Asshole deserves nothing other.
Eat shit and die, Asshole.
You could at least say "please", instead of just issuing orders like this.
It's self satire Brett. He must think he doesn't sound insane.
Eat shit and die, Asshole.
YOU sound insane.
Joe Asshole gets what Joe Asshole deserves.
The fact is that the abortion argument has always been argued from extremes. Yes, rape and incent pregnancies are rare but so are abortions after 15 weeks. If we look at the point where most abortions are performed we seen it is in the time period most accepted by the public suggesting there is little need for restrictions.
Now do public accommodations and public healthcare. I'm willing to roll those restrictions back, are you?
Sure, abortion is medical care and part of women's reproductive health care. It should be covered as public healthcare provided through private or public health insurance. Services for abortion should be accommodated at public health clinics and public hospitals. Does that work?
Does that work?
No. It doesn't work. Not even by it's own logic. You didn't understand the question or the implications of the 'now do' or, apparently, the meaning of 'roll restrictions back'.
Not funny. Not clever. Not principled. Not interesting. Just a dumb waste of space and time.
Exceptions for rape and incest are mostly bs. Killing children is still killing children.
They are religious exceptions being granted by religious people who accept that a government shouldn't be motivated exclusively by their own religion. I can accept that they're morally wrong but that the government forcing the alternative isn't morally right. Moreover, I can accept that, in a federated system, there can be 50 (or more) morally and legally better solutions to better accommodate everyone and the ideologically best solutions either way, don't work in practice.
god these is an serious issue i must say goverment should take strick action against this https://www.newassignmenthelpau.com
Excellent and fair minded article. Tough cases create bad laws. We have to do more to change the culture to make it unthinkable for most women to get abortions. Otherwise, all the laws in the world won't stop it. Right now, if you banned all abortion, but made a rape exception, every woman wanting one would claim rape.
Yeah, they're not a moral as you and don't care or think about the living thing in their body. Just like birches and cows. We must force them to your way.
No, YOU don’t care about the living HUMAN in their body. That’s why you’re excited to murder it.
Ted you ass wipe, my wife and I raised 2 great humans and while supportive of women and families making their own choice on bringing a fetus or embryo to ten, my wife would never have an abortion.
Why don't you mind your own ducking business and help get the state out of forcing births as if women were brood mares for your sick religious beliefs. Fetuses and not babies or persons. 30% of pregnancies result in miscarriages so maybe you can direct your moral concerns toward rescuing or justifying that fact.
10-year-olds are being impregnated on every street corner, and black people are being hunted by police in city and town in America.
How can people be so calm?!
Did you notice how none of the progs are angry about the girl being raped? They’re giving the illegal who raped her a pass and obsessing about the abortion.
So address the issue. Are you pro-forced birth for raped 10 year olds? Don't skip the question and put up other situations. It really is a simple question.
You offer no context. So no, it is not a simple question.
Fuck you sanctamonious dip shit.
She was a girl from Ohio
She just had an abortion
It was a case of insanity
Her name was 10 year old minor
She lived in a tree
So let's force 10 year olds (and 40 year olds) to have rape babies? It's obvious women should have as much right to do what they want with their bodies as men. Get off it reason and stop protecting the Christian nationalists who want us to live in a theocracy under the MAGA emperor. Dems and liberatrians are living in a fucking fantasy land right now as the GOP whittles away at the electoral college and judicial system to make it easy to have a successful coup during January 6 2.0. Lmao you have to a fucking coward or a fucking idiot to not see it coming.
Oh lookie.... MORE F'En problems from Power-Mad Gov-Gun toting wannabe dictators...
Individual Liberty and Justice for all.... Mandating your 'beliefs' into other people's life's by Gov-Gun threats isn't Individual Liberty.
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom
UR supporting FORCED reproduction
*UN-DENIABLE REALITY*
(Without mythical creatures and B.S. Propaganda)
It is PERSONAL... It's not any business of Gov-Guns!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And Pro-Life is so F'En retarded they cannot even pass a law making it illegal for doctors to intentionally kill a fetus... BECAUSE; no matter what kind of B.S. they spew their bottom line is they want to use Gov-Guns to threaten and FORCE people to reproduce.
You’re raving again.
Ted paraphrased, "I WANT MORE GOVERNMENT in people's PERSONAL life's..."
No, I’m saying that you’re raving, again. You are not a good advocate for your be,offs, as flawed as they are in this case. It already takes a great deal of denial to ignore that abortion is infanticide. You push further into the realm of mania.
Do you see yourself as persuasive in any way on this subject?
More Gov-Guns to FORCE 'those' icky people to reproduce...
It's only infanticide in your wild imagination loaded up on B.S. propaganda...
If you want a wild imagination keep it to yourself. (i.e. Mind your own F'En business.)
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting FORCED reproduction.
THAT ******IS***** the reality of it.
I read that for every unwanted baby put up for adoption in the U.S., there are over 30 couples wanting to adopt. I am disappointed that this sort of information has not become part of the debate. Discounting exceptional medical cases and minors, the vast majority of unwanted babies can find good homes. But abortion is cheaper and more simple for most women, than carrying a child to term. If pro-life organizations concentrated on providing financial help to these women, that would prevent at least some abortions. I would think that many women in that situation have a price; if you offer them enough money, they would agree not to abort the child.
May I rail against the "rape or incest" formulation, as redundant or misleading?
I assume that by "incest" we're referring to situations in which, say, Daddy's been having sexual intercourse with little Susie. But if Susie's too young to give informed competent consent to intercourse, then the situation's rape, regardless of the consanguinity of the parties, so the "incest" aspect is irrelevant.
Conversely, if siblings Jaime and Cersei are competent adults when they decide to engage in coitus, the argument for an incest exception to a ban on abortion doesn't seem terribly valid. If Cersei is a willing participant in the act that led to the conception, we can hardly say that she's being re-victimized by being compelled to go through the pregnancy.
And, just out of curiosity, would a rape exception to an abortion prohibition also apply when the woman is the rapist? I'm thinking about schoolteacher-and-13-year-old-boy situations, where the pregnancy results from statutory rape but befalls the rapist rather than the victim.
OK, I didn't read every single comment, but after skimming a bunch, I didn't see this very basic logic that I'm going to lay out for you all. (basic to me I guess)
Pro-Life: yes, a new life begins at conception.
Pro-Choice: yes, that new life is just a clump of undifferentiated cells.
Me: after a few weeks or so, that clump of cells becomes a differentiated human being in the early stages of development and is objectively sentient.
I would really like to see this argument over abortion shift from its current overly simplistic talking points to a more rational argument of not when life begins or what life is, but to when sentience begins. Because that is the beginning of what we understand as a human being. And the only non-sentient human being is either dead (or brain dead).
Consider a thought experiment where we could clone a human being from a sample of the host tissue. If the human host required an appendectomy or the amputation of a limb, would we then be morally obligated to make every effort to use that tissue to create a new human being? It sounds ridiculous, and it is. Because no, merely having the "potential" to develop into a human being isn't a reasonable argument. What if we could do that from every strand of hair, toe-nail, or slough of skin? It becomes even more ridiculous. Then a mass of tissue that has the "potential" is an insufficient argument to preserve that tissue.
This begs the question, "When should we think of a mass of human tissue to be a human being?"
My simplistic answer: when it becomes sentient.
Now, maybe it's not so simple, because what does sentient mean? OK. I'm down with hashing that out in the public sphere, but at least we have a question that we can pose to science for answer, or at least remove it from the realm of religious morality posed by the pro-life side without likewise removing the humanity from the issue, as posed by pro-choice side.
Then, if we accept that one of the most fundamental purposes of government is to protect individual rights of human beings, we must also accept that abortion has to have limits, if in fact the life of a human being hangs in the balance. And certainly, at some point, the developing fetus is a human being.
However, in the human reproductive process, neither the fertilized egg is, nor the blastocyst, nor the zygote, can properly be considered a human being as such. Human "tissue" with a unique DNA signature? Yes. But a being, with a brain and central nervous system, which is required for human sentience? Clearly not. Yet at some point, we have to concede that yes, it is a tiny human being, just like us, and its rights ought to be protected.
To me, and perhaps many others, this is where we can see that the debate in the public sphere at present is solely about ideology, with each side entrenched in a war of beliefs rather than reasons, with neither willing to engage in a dialog over the real ethical dilemma that is abortion. And as long as that's the case, we're never going figure out a workable solution.
The solution then that I propose, is that both sides are wrong and the issue must be re-framed in more concrete and rational terms to be resolved.