(Illustration: Lex Villena; Christopher Nuzzaco, Tom Dowd)
The basic argument against abortion was succinctly expressed just six weeks ago by Florida Sen. Rick Scott in the pages of The Wall Street Journal when he boldly pronounced that "the Republican position on abortion is based on a fundamental belief that life begins at conception." Leaving aside exactly what conception means—is it the same as fertilization, for instance?—such a statement implies that abortion, with the possible exception of those performed to save the life of the pregnant woman, is murder. It's not just conservatives like Scott who feel this way, of course. Some libertarians, including some of my colleagues here at Reason, share that view and thus call abortion nothing less than "child murder."
The equation of abortion with murder may be ahistorical (more on that in a moment), but now that Roe has been overturned, such a belief has profound implications for the people living in the 26 states that are likely to ban most, if not all, abortions. If life does indeed begin at conception, then the state has an affirmative duty to protect all zygotes (fertilized eggs), blastocysts (week-old zygotes), and embryos (zygotes implanted on the uterine wall). From a libertarian perspective, the implications of such a shift are staggering. This is a recipe not for limited government but for one that must, in the name of protecting life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, surveil and track all acts of potential procreation.
The Guttmacher Institute reports that 13 states have "trigger" laws that immediately limit access to abortion based on the stage of pregnancy, ban it except to save the life of the mother, or revert to laws on the books before Roe or the 1992 abortion-rights case Planned Parenthood v. Casey was decided. Another "nine states [have] pre-Roebans still on the books, and 11 states [have] early gestational age bans blocked by court orders. In states with multiple bans, state officials will determine which ban to enforce if Roe is overturned."
What will the new reality look like over the next few weeks? Alabama has a 2019 law on the books that, as Jacob Sullum has reported, "bans abortion at any stage of pregnancy with a few narrow exceptions," such as when the mother's health is seriously threatened. A federal injunction kept the legislation from taking effect, but it will now presumably become the law of the land in the Heart of Dixie. With the end of Roe's protections. Idaho, Tennessee, and Texas all have near-total bans on elective abortions that will go into effect in 30 days.
Where will the freedom of states to prohibit abortion lead? Almost certainly to more and more draconian restrictions on abortion and, eventually, long-settled issues of contraception, sexual privacy, and the rights of gays and lesbians to sleep together and get married. Indeed, in his concurrence with the majority opinion in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, Associate Justice Clarence Thomas stated that "we should reconsider all of this Court's substantive due process precedents including Griswold, Lawrence, and Obergefell," three cases that dealt with, respectively, the right to obtain contraception, same-sex relations, and gay marriage. It's a positive sign that Associate Justice Brett Kavanaugh said that governments can't prevent women from leaving their home states to procure abortions elsewhere, an idea that was being floated by pro-lifers in the run-up to today's decision.
The new equilibrium is hardly a stable one. The Mississippi law at issue in Dobbs banned abortions after 15 weeks, a point by which over 90 percent of abortions are performed anyway. While it was being litigated, Texas passed a ban on abortions at six weeks that managed to avoid a federal injunction by giving private citizens rather than state agents the right to sue to enforce it. Such a create-a-snitch workaround—worthy of former East Germany in empowering residents to spy on one another—was quickly adopted by states such as Oklahoma and Idaho.
Surely we can expect ever-shrinking time limits on when abortion is allowed at all and expansions of who can alert authorities when "conception" and thus life has occurred. Does anyone feel comfortable with the idea that politicians like Rick Scott will be empowered to protect "life" that "begins at conception"? As Florida's governor, he pushed unconstitutional plans to drug test all state employees, job applicants, and welfare applicants. This is not a person who takes limits on government seriously.
Contra Scott, the notion that "life begins at conception" is hardly a "conclusion grounded in faith and values, but also in science" (as he avers in his Wall Street Journal piece). The two main arguments of Associate Justice Samuel Alito's decision in Dobbs are deeply flawed, as Damon Root shows. The idea that abortion goes unmentioned in the Constitution and thus can't be protected by it is a travesty of the concept of unenumerated rights retained by individuals. As important, Alito glosses over the historical reality that, Root writes,
the states followed the common law at the founding, the American people originally understood that lawmakers lacked the lawful power to prohibit women from ending an unwanted pregnancy during its early stages. The freedom to end an unwanted pregnancy before quickening thus falls within the original meaning and understanding of a right "retained by the people."
Indeed, even the Catholic Church, which has long been the most vocally anti-abortion religious group in America, didn't formally condemn abortion until the mid-19th century. It's rare for people on different sides of the abortion debate to acknowledge the other side has a point, but such honesty would be welcome, especially now. The argument that life begins at conception is at odds not only with history but how we all feel when it comes to miscarriages, which become more far emotionally profound the farther along the pregnancy is. By the same token, abortions past 20 weeks seem different than ones at 13 weeks or below (one reason, surely, why 93 percent of abortions take place by 14 weeks and just 1 percent after 21 weeks). At some point during gestation, the fetus becomes a person with a right to life and liberty, but drawing that line will always be a compromise and imprecise.
The basic framework put in place by Roe a half-century ago (and later amended in Casey), reflected those earlier beliefs by balancing the rights of women and fetuses by granting the state an interest in pregnancy after the first several months. For all the contention that Roe somehow politicized abortion rights, the decision in fact ushered in an era of remarkably consistent beliefs about abortion. As I wrote when Alito's draft was first leaked back in May,
Since Roe was decided, with just 19 percent of Americans agreeing that it should be banned in all circumstances, two percentage points lower than in 1975 when Gallup started asking the question. Eighty percent agree it should be legal in all or some circumstances, which is four percentage points higher than in 1975. That consistency is all the more remarkable when you realize that when Roe was decided, 30 states banned abortion completely and only 20 allowed it under some circumstances.
(Gallup)
Now, in a post-Roe America, any consensus is over. The states that ban abortion will be completely untethered to anything but the most extreme arguments coming from pro-life forces who believe that life begins at conception, which makes it highly likely that some state governments will eventually force their way into every bedroom along with every examination room.
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Is it storytime already? Can the sex police be extraterrestrial aliens? It would be more interesting.
How about a story where you write and pass laws to govern a country instead of courts making shit up and then piling even more shit on top of the old shit every ten years or so?
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I think NICK GILLESPIE, may be an undercover sex law enforcement agent. Or... maybe he just lost the point of the ruling, to prevent legislation and activism from the court. Or maybe NICK GILLESPIE is a sexual deviant, who is really upset that he can't get his illegitimate children aborted/killed in his state of residence now?
Certainly this ruling doesn't mean there will be sex police, so it MUST be story time, or something else is afoot???
On March 10, 2017, U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions ordered all 46 remaining United States Attorneys who were holdovers from the Obama administration, including Bharara, to submit letters of resignation.[122] Bharara declined to resign and was fired the next day.[123][124]
Preety Boy BhararahahahahaHOOO-ha was entirely TOO chummy with Emperor Obama, so the TrumptatorShit DITCHED Preety Boy BhararahahahahaHOOO-ha, for NOT being TOTALLY mind-enslaved to Der TrumpfenFuhrer! So now, Preety Boy BhararahahahahaHOOO-ha wants sweet REVENGE up the human race, which (seemingly) has despised Him SOOOOO much! Therefor, Preety Boy BhararahahahahaHOOO-ha will chuckle gleefully, after He and His Fellow womb-controlled-women-enslavers will gather enough "binders full of women" whose wombs have been slave-binded to be baby-making machines against their wills! By Preety Boy BhararahahahahaHOOO-ha and fellow Lying Lotharios!
Because government never expands their laws to ridiculous portions like no fly lists sex offender registrations, check points...here in reality that is what government does. What does it do in your fantasy land?
Each time I read a stupid headline on the abortion decision and think, "well that's the most stupid and ignorant headline statement I'll see all day", someone goes and proves me wrong. This article about tops them all. And, this is a site supposedly produced and edited by reason'd people. And, I'm talking about even beating out AOC, Pelosi, Jennifer Rubin, and even ole "10% Guy" Biden. This is supposed to be a site where you can read somewhat intelligent opinions on the happenings of the day, especially in legal matters.
Believe it or not, no matter how much you thrust it in our faces, conservatives are really not interested in what you do in your bedroom. We would prefer you keep it to yourself.
The decision today was based upon the fact that abortion is not a federal right. The matter can be returned to the States for legislation as it should have remained and was before the Roe v Wade case. No one is going to be policing your sexual activities unless you keep going after children for your sexual gratification.
Also, quit using abortion as your birth control method. It is cruel to keep killing your children. One day you will probably wish you had allowed a couple of them to live. Use readily available birth control methods to stop becoming pregnant, or keep your baby-making parts in your pants.
Hey, Cindy, didn't I see you at the abortion clinic the other day with a cute little sign that looks like one of your kids illustrated? I waved but you didn't wave back. Just checking to see if you saw me, too?
"The decision today was based upon the fact that abortion is not a federal right."
Because Government 'Grant' Individual Rights by legislation??? Instead of having a Supreme Court that uphold a "People's" law over the federal (+State after Civil War) legislative government...
Holy crap; people are so utterly confused about simple USA government it's stunning. Legislative Government doesn't 'Grant' inherent rights. "The People's" SUPREME Law ***OVER*** Legislative government PROTECTS inherent human rights from Gov-Guns trampling them.
This is not the problem: "If life begins at conception, there are virtually no limits on government surveillance of women in a post-Roe world."
NICK GILLESPIE must have been bored and wanted to troll us.
The problem was, the courts were making shit up out of thin air. In the late 1860s, there were few abortion laws, because culturally abortion was abhorrent, and few were performed. By 1900, every single state had anti-abortion law on the books. Before abortion was a "common law offence" before there were any statutes against it. A court full of activists in 1973, had to use the 14th amendment's equal protection clause from 1868, yes 1868, to ramrod baby killing protections. Excuse me, but in 1868, when they wrote that clause, it's intention was most definitely NOT to protect baby killing.
So you conclusion is... The Supreme Court made up Individual Liberty out of thin-air because it took an implied Right that people OWN themselves to get to a right to privacy????? Cause let me tell you there is NO spelled out T right to privacy in the Constitution but the summation of intent obviously there by many provision of it....
And what exactly is a 'right to privacy'????? Perhaps it's keeping [WE] mob of Gov-Gun packing dictators out of PERSONAL affairs and minding their OWN F'En business that doesn't concern them... Ya know; like people's pregnancies...
If one takes the pro-life position literally, then abortion is equivalent to literal murder. And because in general we regard murder as a very serious crime, we expect instances of suspected murder, or attempted murder, to be vigorously investigated.
So for example if a person winds up missing, we expect the police to investigate for possible foul play.
Now let's consider the case of a woman who shows up to work visibly pregnant on Friday, but on Monday, not so much. By the pro-life logic, the case of that "missing person" should be investigated by the police for possible foul play, should it not?
But fortunately (I suppose), the pro-life position as stated above should not be taken literally, we know this because in general they don't want women to face any legal penalties for pursuing an abortion. Which makes no sense if one believes that abortion is literal murder.
It is really more about enforcing their conception of 'personal responsibility'.
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The implication that you and Nick seem to be making is that since you do not like the (imagined in your heads) consequences of considering a fetus a life, it must therefore not be a life.
My finger is alive... You want to dictate me because I have fingers too?
If you can't establish an Individual you're just perching your dictative authority on someone else's body cells. ( imagined unicorns in your imaginative head )
“It is really more about enforcing their conception of 'personal responsibility”
Once again here is Chemjeff to tell us what conservatives really think.
For the record, I think that it is wrong when Kim Jun Fucknut kills his people. Or when Putin invades Ukraine and poisons his dissenters. That is literal murder.
But based on Chemjeff logic if I don’t demand all it takes to bring those murderers to justice I must actually be thinking something about personal responsibility. Or something.
Maybe if you spent a little more time arguing in good faith instead of putting thoughts in imaginary minds your arguments would be a little more cogent.
*Based on my observations*, I think the pro-life position is motivated more about enforcing personal responsibility, than it is about declaring abortion to be literal murder. That is since, as I have described, there is an inherent contradiction between the two claims that (1) abortion is literal murder, but (2) women who seek abortion should not be prosecuted for any crime at all.
But based on Chemjeff logic if I don’t demand all it takes to bring those murderers to justice I must actually be thinking something about personal responsibility.
No, Overt, different situations demand different analyses.
I mean we've only been talking about this in threads for weeks at this point. And those you call conservatives have made it pretty clear their considerations are about balance of rights between the child and mother.
That is their public statements for the most part. It is the public statements of many libertarians.
The issue there is that the "blastocyst" (aka unborn child, living being, fetus, person, etc) wasn't uninvited, but arrived as the known result of voluntary action on the part of the person who now wishes to exterminate the "blastocyst".
I'm compelled by the argument that government doesn't have jurisdiction because the "blastocyst" exists entirely within the woman's body. So the woman who exterminates the "blastocyst" while it within her, before its been born and reached government jurisdiction, should face no legal punishment. But a doctor who performs an abortion on others is certainly within government jurisdiction, thus should face the same legal penalty a hitman hired to kill any adult would.
“*Based on my observations*, I think the pro-life position is motivated more about enforcing personal responsibility, than it is about declaring abortion to be literal murder.”
Well based on my personal observations you lack the ability to read minds. And your only stated evidence that I don’t mean what I say is my motivation is the tortured logic above. So what you are saying is that not only do I not believe a fetus is alive; not only do I not believe the statement above that I can reconcile that view with not creating a police state; but also that I am lying about that and actually care about personal responsibility not human life. Me and the Catholic Church and nearly half of the country.
It is my general observation that you find conservatives stupid and icky and will always impute the worst motivations no matter what they say.
It is my general observation that you are so wrapped up in defending liberals because they intend well while making up intentions so you can attack conservatives that you will forever miss the opportunity to actually affect change in this country.
You and I could be talking about the reasonable limits that ought to be put on a government so that it can try to prevent murder without turning the country into a police state. We could be doing that but my general observation is that actual rational discussion is the last thing you want when you can instead vilify people who don’t agree with you.
Whatever man. You do understand that Team Red gets treated with kid gloves around here, right? Just today I was told that when Trump supporters were chanting HANG MIKE PENCE, *while committing acts of violence breaking into the Capitol*, that they should not be taken seriously. It was just playful rhetoric, you see! But, when Chuck Schumer says that Kavanaugh will "reap the whirlwind"? Now, THAT'S a literal VIOLENT THREAT AGAINST HIS LIFE. You cannot have possibly failed to notice the double standard around here?
Democrats are evil and should be regarded in the worst possible light.
Republicans are just misunderstood and should be regarded in the best possible light.
So most of the time, when I am accused of "defending Democrats", what I'm actually doing is calling out this double standard. Hey, maybe if Republicans should be given the benefit of the doubt, why not Democrats? Hmm? But OH NO that is intolerable. Democrats are RACIST FASCIST COMMUNIST SOCIALIST TOTALITARIAN NAZIS who want to blow up the planet! Republicans - well, they have a few authoritarian tendencies, but can't you overlook that for the sake of stopping Democrats? Pretty please?
And yes there are a few issues when Democrats are just better than Republicans. Immigration, for example.
Furthermore, I absolutely do believe that many Republicans have lost their way. I grew up in a time when Republicans were considered the "adults in the room", the intellectuals who had inspiring new ideas, in contrast to Democrats who only had boring stale ideas from the 1930s. Now, what I see are Republicans who have no new ideas and who offer little more than conspiracy theories, demagoguery and lies. (Oh but don't Democrats demagogue as well? You betcha! But not nearly as bad as Republicans do!) I am embarrassed for what the Republicans have become. I really am.
So no I can't read minds, but I can make observations. And that is what I have seen.
This is the dishonesty of jeff in a nutshell. He freely accused people of being conservatives for attacking the left. Then cries like a little child when he is called out for attacking the right and defending the left.
"Whatever man...[long diatribe where Chemjeff plays the victim and never once attempts to defend his previous 'general observations]...Whatever man."
Please. You called me and the rest of the pro-lifers disingenuous. You said we actually aren't trying to protect life but instead secretly push some agenda of "personal responsibility". When I called you on it and offered a counter to your reasoning, you change the subject and you play the victim.
You play the victim to absolve you of the need to "make observations" about what I said. You could be internalizing my argument to you and adjusting your world view, but no. Tomorrow, or in two weeks, you'll be back insisting the exact damn thing because- surprise- you only "observe" that which strengthens your world view.
*Based on my observations*, I think the pro-life position is motivated more about enforcing personal responsibility, than it is about declaring abortion to be literal murder.
First, they are MY observations. Are you going to deny me the observations that I make?
Second, I am referencing the pro-life *position*, not every single individual.
Third, I claim that it is motivated MORE by matters of personal responsibility, not EXCLUSIVELY so.
And so, you took my statement and dishonestly twisted it into "Chemjeff is accusing every pro-life person of being a dishonest asshole lying about their views of the personhood of the fetus!" Which isn't what I said.
Seems to me, Overt, you deliberately twisted my statement in order to use it as an excuse to launch a personal attack at me. Which seems very Jesse-like of you.
Overt, you need to read the statements of what other pro-lifers say. Go read the comments here from Earth-Based Human Skeptic, Dizzle, Cronut, and others who focus a great deal on the personal responsibility that they view is lacking in women with the existence of legal abortion. I listened to an interview on NPR with the governor of Mississippi who signed this particular bill into law. One of the first things that he said to the interviewer was that he was now hopeful that women would act more responsibly. The language of "personal responsibility" is everywhere in these discussions. I am not saying that these people don't sincerely believe that the fetus is a human life worth saving. I am saying that for MANY PEOPLE, perhaps not you, but for MANY PEOPLE, matters of personal responsibility of the woman are just as, if not more, important than the matter of the life of the fetus. YOU need to read what others are saying and you need to understand that you are not the sole representative of the pro-life movement.
"First, they are MY observations. Are you going to deny me the observations that I make?"
I deny your interpretations of those observations as being the product of a person who is extremely wrong and biased. You have observed that Pro-Lifers are uninterested in throwing mothers in jail for murder. You have interpreted that to mean that we are being disingenuous when we say the purpose of the pro-life movement is to stop the snuffing of life.
"Second, I am referencing the pro-life *position*, not every single individual."
Oh knock it off. You are engaged in a collectivist smear and when I called you on it, your first reaction was to play the victim, and now you want to get into a semantics argument. You are hiding behind silly passive voice nonsense. "The position is motivated more by..." How is it motivated Chemjeff? Does the position have a life of its own? Does it motivate itself?
" the pro-life position as stated above should not be taken literally, we know this because in general **they** don't want women to face any legal penalties for pursuing an abortion." - Chemjeff's first statement [emphasis mine]
Who is "they" Chemjeff? The abstract position? This passive movement that just "is motivated"? Of course not, your argument is that PEOPLE who are pro-life are MORE interested in pushing personal responsibility than stopping murder. And the evidence you provided was ONE observation: that pro-lifers don't want to throw women in jail for abortion.
When I called you on it, you then referenced (but didn't offer specific examples of) "observations" to continue justifying your statement.
And now, the only thing you can serve up is a bunch of name drops, and an allusion to your radio listening. Color me skeptical if I think that you are uncharitably ascribing motivations to people despite what they actually say.
In case you didn't notice, MILLIONS of people are currently running around screaming that women are losing access to abortions. They are demanding to make that the government's problem. Or the problem of Pro-Lifers who object to baby-killing. Do you understand how that might result in people in the pro-life movement talking about personal responsibility?
we are being disingenuous when we say the purpose of the pro-life movement is to stop the snuffing of life.
You are being disingenuous if you say the SINGULAR purpose of the pro-life movement is to stop the snuffing of life. From my observations, it is more than that. It ALSO has a very substantial component of wanting to use the state to enforce a particular type of 'personal responsibility'. It ALSO has a very substantial component of wanting to use the state to enforce a cultural shift, which you yourself allude to. You want the state to declare abortion to be murder, even if it is not prosecuted as murder, if it means a cultural shift of more people thinking that abortion is murder.
Oh knock it off. You are engaged in a collectivist smear and when I called you on it, your first reaction was to play the victim, and now you want to get into a semantics argument.
You know what, Overt? You are not the gatekeeper for the entire pro-life movement and you should stop pretending like you are.
I made a generalization based on my observations. I was very clear in stating that I did not think every single person believed a specific way. You are just upset that not every pro-life person obeys the ideal that exists in your head.
Again read the comments of the people that I mentioned.
I hate to break it to you, but there are pro-life people out there who want to ban abortion for some pretty shitty reasons. Just like there are libertarians out there who support libertarian ideas for some pretty shitty reasons. They don't represent everyone, but they exist. They cannot all be the virtuous saint that you are, Overt.
And now, the only thing you can serve up is a bunch of name drops, and an allusion to your radio listening. Color me skeptical if I think that you are uncharitably ascribing motivations to people despite what they actually say.
KELLY: Mississippi, as we mentioned, only has one clinic providing abortions. What do these next days look like in your state?
BRYANT: Well, I think people will start thinking about something called individual responsibility. I think they're going to have to take into consideration that I might not be able to get an abortion on demand. I might not be able to do that just for my convenience. And so I think - I hope and I believe that there will be adults who will be more responsible and not bring about a life that they do not want.
Because you are making up intentions in peoples heads.
First, let's be clear- You have now retreated from Pro-Lifers being more interested in personal responsibility than actually saving lives to now saying saving lives is not our "SINGULAR" motive. But it is all just parsing of words. It is like you saying, "Overt, you aren't singularly interested in building a house. You also want to pour foundations and hang drywall."
Obviously if this country is going to markedly decrease the killing of innocent life, then it will require a cultural shift. And would-be aborters are going to have to take responsibility for their actions. Those are not ulterior motives. They are pre-requisites.
"You know what, Overt? You are not the gatekeeper for the entire pro-life movement and you should stop pretending like you are."
And yet you have no problem pretending that you can divine the primary intentions of the whole pro-life movement, right? Alternatively, you don't like me pushing back on you, because it interferes with your ability to question the motives of people you don't agree with.
I am summarizing the written and argued positions of pretty much every advocate on this subject since the pro-life movement began. I welcome you to point me to someone who says, "You know what, saving lives is nice, but really this is about getting people to take responsibility for their actions." Of course, you won't find that, so instead you have to fall back to interpreting our actions.
"You are just upset that not every pro-life person obeys the ideal that exists in your head."
This is laughable, Chemjeff. The only specific evidence that you could provide of your charge was that Pro-Life people don't dogmatically insist on throwing women in prison. That's it. I have now had a long running discussion with you about HOW a person can be interested in saving life, and still not want to throw women in jail. And even IF my logic is incorrect, it still is evidence that a person (even mistakenly) can reconcile the primacy of saving lives with the compassion of not prosecuting mothers.
So AT BEST, the evidence that you are using for your conclusion is non-determinant. It is consistent with every written and spoken word (including the interview you provided) that the Pro-Life movement has made. That invalidates your suggestion that it is proof of something different.
"I hate to break it to you, but there are pro-life people out there who want to ban abortion for some pretty shitty reasons....They cannot all be the virtuous saint that you are, Overt."
Then find one, Chemjeff. Please. I can find you people behind the pro-abortion movement who have said a reason we should have abortion is to keep "wrong" populations from multiplying. So you should be able to find me some noteworthy person who said "The reason we should ban abortion is..." something other than preserving human life. Where is the quote? Because the NPR quote isn't him saying that personal responsibility is the reason he is doing this.
And let's note that you have now retreated from saying the pro-life movement is *more* about enforcing personal responsibility to saying some people who are pro-lifers aren't singularly supporting it to save lives. You have retreated into the most ramshackle of bailies.
"Clear enough for you?"
Yup. You have proven my skepticism correct. You originally said "One of the first things he said" was talking about Responsibility. Which, of course, is not true. The entire beginning of that interview, Bryant says, "But when we had the opportunity in 2018 to protect innocent lives starting at 15 weeks, and of course, we then - we passed a more stringent anti-abortion bill after that. But we just believe that it's murder. We believe that it's a tearing apart of the human body in the womb. And so we were very happy, I was, and I know many of us that heard that ruling today."
So, in fact, the first words out of Bryant's mouth were to celebrate the saving of life. And before you say "well, I said it was ONE OF the first things he said", who do you think you are kidding? Your whole thesis (until you backed off of it) was that Pro Lifers were MORE interested in personal responsibility than saving life. This would only be valid evidence if he had been talking about responsibility before saving lives.
Even then, your quote doesn't even prove that "Personal Responsibility" was one of his motives. The interviewer didn't ask "Are there other reasons you've done this?" She asked what happens now that the abortion clinic is closing. He is answering that question, not the made up one in your head.
Interviewer: Overt, now that you've gotten permission to build your house, what are you going to do?
Overt: Well, I'm going to have to start clearing the ground around the build site.
Chemjeff: See? This whole house building thing is more about Overt getting to cut down trees!
We could be doing that but my general observation is that actual rational discussion is the last thing you want when you can instead vilify people who don’t agree with you.
It's worse than that, actually, because it doesn't matter if the woman was "visibly" pregnant. If its murder to kill an embryo the moment of 'conception' (whenever exactly that is), then you have to stop any murder of a pre-visibility embryo too.
Well how do you know the woman was pregnant? Here comes the demand for full government access to medical records, snooping through the mail for abortifacent pills, and surveilling convenience stores for pregnancy test purchases.
Had a miscarriage? Expect a very intrusive government investigation to prove it was actually a miscarriage and not an abortion. After all, we'd expect an investigation to distinguish between an accidental death and a murder.
I'm envisioning state governments requiring women to apply for Conception Certificates as they must now for Birth Certificates. If the blastocyst is fully a legal person, how can you justify waiting until birth before the state takes official notice of it?
Yippie... Next agenda - cavity searches for missing people...
A right to privacy --- Yeah right... We Pro-Life Republicans don't believe in any right to privacy, body ownership, personal affairs --- It's all about those Gov-Guns getting FULL Authority for our self-righteous cause.....
Oh, so you assumed that the pregnant woman in my story was fully 9+ months pregnant, who gave birth over the weekend. (And then showed up to work on Monday? Really?) What if she was only 5 or so months pregnant? Hmm? She shows up to work on Friday visibly pregnant, and then on Monday, not visibly pregnant. Foul play? Investigation by the police? What do you say?
Or to the bigger point... Police investigating what one did to themselves like it was crime... You need to be checked to see if you emitted sperm over the weekend.
"Oh, so you assumed that the pregnant woman in my story was fully 9+ months pregnant, who gave birth over the weekend. (And then showed up to work on Monday? Really?) What if she was only 5 or so months pregnant? Hmm? She shows up to work on Friday visibly pregnant, and then on Monday, not visibly pregnant. Foul play? Investigation by the police? What do you say?"
Again, do you think police investigate heart attack deaths as homicides?
So a possible murder shouldn't be investigated if the investigation would be too intrusive to people's liberties? For a potential murder of a grown person, we would not tolerate such an argument. We would rightfully say "yes, the police should search the house of someone that they reasonably believe to be the suspected murderer (as determined by a duly authorized warrant)". That is why the Fourth Amendment only bans UNREASONABLE searches, not ALL searches. This is the pro-life conundrum. They can't both claim that abortion is literal murder, and then simultaneously claim that it shouldn't be investigated as if it were literal murder.
But fortunately we know that the pro-life position, as enunciated by people like NRLC, is not that abortion is literal murder. So they wouldn't be in favor of intrusive investigations of every pregnant woman who had a miscarriage. And from that point of view, it is a good thing.
How many intrusive 4th amendment violations do you think occur for murder investigations??
I should also ask why you've been defending the warrants and investigations into the GOP party for non criminal investigations around the J6 (well at least you claimed there was no criminal intent in the investigation).
We have actual 4th amendment violations that have actually occurred very recently regarding Project Veritas, J6, and others. Yet you've casually dismissed each case. Yet here you persistently are asking about hyperbolic violations made up by the voices in your head.
Your logic taken to its conclusion would require that I morally support the invasion of other countries to stop the murder of “full grown adults”. I do not. Because the state required to enact that would be impossibly immoral in practice.
But it’s your turn. If you really believe we must treat all potential murders the same why aren’t you advocating the invasion of North Korea?
which ignores borders and issues of jurisdiction? Sure, absolutely!
Fortunately, I do not ignore borders, nor issues of jurisdiction.
The legal system which has jurisdiction over a missing person who is an adult, has the same jurisdiction over a "missing person" that is the result of an abortion.
"which ignores borders and issues of jurisdiction? Sure, absolutely!"
So wait. You are saying that there are reasonable limits we can place on the government that might mean we treat murders differently depending on the circumstances?
Why is "Jurisdiction" more important than preventing murders? These are just lines on the map- just as the Constitution is just words on a piece of paper. If you are morally opposed to murder, aren't you a hypocrite if you don't argue for the government doing everything possible to eliminate it?
Let's fast-forward this conversation a bit and we would probably conclude that we limit the government's power to stop murder with borders, and jurisdiction, and constitutional protections, BECAUSE an unrestrained nation with zero murders is probably far more immoral than a nation that has some murder.
As recently as 150 years ago, it was perfectly legal for a man to shoot another man in cold blood. You might have seen a Hip-Hop musical about a founding father killed in such a way. Even in places where dueling was outlawed, for many years the state spent fewer resources investigating and prosecuting dueling deaths than other types. In part this was because the alternative of putting thousands of men in jail for a culturally tolerated act would have caused more harm than good.
So let's just look at the circumstances of abortion. For 60 years we have had a very heated and divisive argument about this, to the point that we have an epidemic of murder by people who don't believe they are actually murdering someone, any more than a duelist felt they were murdering. It is going to take generations to untangle that moral confusion.
If Pro-Lifers want a more harmonious nation, then the last thing we should be seeking is a police state focused on the mass-criminalization of brainwashed kids. We should be condemning the brainwashers, making the moral case for life, making access to abortion more difficult, and offering help (Like these pregnancy centers that abortion lunatics keep burning down).
Why is "Jurisdiction" more important than preventing murders?
First, in the current discussion, it's not about "preventing murders", but prosecuting alleged murders after the fact. That is, according to the literal pro-life position, abortion is literal murder, and a woman who has an abortion has participated in an act of murder. However many do not want to prosecute the woman for her role in the murder. That is the conundrum here: abortion is murder, but should not be treated like murder as far as the law is concerned.
Why is jurisdiction important? Because jurisdiction defines the scope of a government's authority. The US laws against murder do not apply to Canada. So if a Canadian woman has an abortion, she is not guilty of the American crime of murder, because she's not an American. If she is guilty of the Canadian crime of murder, that is up to the Canadian authorities to decide. If you want to argue that she is *morally* guilty of murder, then fine, but that is a different argument than trying to impose US law on a Canadian citizen.
Let's fast-forward this conversation a bit and we would probably conclude that we limit the government's power to stop murder with borders, and jurisdiction, and constitutional protections, BECAUSE an unrestrained nation with zero murders is probably far more immoral than a nation that has some murder.
This is a curious inversion of the argument.
First, I'll agree that in principle, some limits on government power to investigate crimes after the fact (again we aren't talking about 'preventing crime') are justified in the name of civil liberties.
But, what has just happened here? In the states that are now going to heavily restrict or ban abortion, the scope of the classification of "murder" (what pro-lifers would regard as murder, anyway) is going to vastly increase. If a woman self-induces an abortion, then by the pro-life standard, a murder has been committed even if they are unwilling to formally charge that woman with the crime of murder. And people like Nick are saying "whoa, here comes the sex police to intrusively investigate all of these 'murders'!" And your response is that we should not worry about that, because we justly recognize limits on the power of the state to investigate crimes like murders if it leads to gross violations of civil liberties, so there isn't going to be a mass investigation of every miscarriage. But, if that's the case - then WHAT IS THE POINT of this change, from a legal perspective? If the status quo ante was that abortion is not prosecuted as murder because it is formally legal, but if the new status quo is going to be that abortion is not prosecuted as murder because it would be too injurious to civil liberties to do so, then wouldn't it simply be more honest to leave things the way they were, with abortion formally legal? Even from a civil liberties perspective, if you are genuinely worried about the civil liberties of women being hassled by the 'sex police', wouldn't keeping abortion legal remove any possibility of that happening? After all, under the new regime, we only have the promises of pro-life politicians that they will NOT unleash the 'sex police' on pregnant women.
If Pro-Lifers want a more harmonious nation, then the last thing we should be seeking is a police state focused on the mass-criminalization of brainwashed kids.
Wow. Just wow. So women who get abortions (most of whom are not "kids" but grown women) are "brainwashed". That's pretty condescending there.
"First, in the current discussion, it's not about "preventing murders", but prosecuting alleged murders after the fact."
So wait a minute...Pro-Lifers *say* that our goal is to prevent murder. You and I both agree that punishing a woman for an abortion won't prevent the murder. So why are you confused that Pro-Lifers- who want to prevent murder- are not obsessed with punishing women. Could it be that Pro-Lifers- many of whom are led by christian values- believe it is better to focus on prevention than vengeance?
"Why is jurisdiction important? Because jurisdiction defines the scope of a government's authority. "
But so is ANY limit on the Constitution or government in general. The government may not infringe our speech because we have limited its scope and authority to do so. The question remains, WHY have we done this?
"First, I'll agree that in principle, some limits on government power to investigate crimes after the fact (again we aren't talking about 'preventing crime') are justified in the name of civil liberties."
Good. Now imagine if we focused our energy on defining the appropriate balance between preventing/punishing murder and preventing an immoral state. Not spending hours questioning the motives of your opponents. Not making silly arguments like "Because I don't like the consequences of when life begins it must not be a life!" Just focusing on what is a tolerable balance between preserving life and preserving liberty.
" But, if that's the case - then WHAT IS THE POINT of this change, from a legal perspective?"
1) It will decrease abortions, thereby decreasing the number of murders. 2) It will remand to the states a moral question that seems pretty divisive at the federal level. 3) It will end the federal government's support of a morally evil practice.
"Even from a civil liberties perspective, if you are genuinely worried about the civil liberties of women being hassled by the 'sex police', wouldn't keeping abortion legal remove any possibility of that happening?"
Yes, but it would also keep the baby killing going on.
"Wow. Just wow. So women who get abortions (most of whom are not "kids" but grown women) are "brainwashed". That's pretty condescending there."
Our entire culture has been brainwashed to believe that murder isn't murder. The majority of abortions occur among college age kids. Feel free to change brainwashed to a longer phrase like "convinced by people who are morally confused". *shrug*
We have 3 parties here:
A. Woman
B. Child
C. 3rd party contractor
B exists entirely within A, so I'm fine with considering that outside US or state jurisdiction for the purposes of whatever A does herself.
But once A involves C, C's actions bring the procedure into state or US jurisdiction.
Let's say A is suicidal. If A hangs herself, no crime. But if A hires C to kill her, C is still going to be held liable for murder.
Maybe it's the procedure rather than the result that can/should be outlawed. It's not like consent makes any experiment a doctor wants to perform legal even if the subject agrees to it.
You ask a legit question, and the answer depends on how many people are involved. Is it a medical decision between woman and doctor, or 2 wolves and 1 sheep voting on who's for dinner?
Different states will provide different answers to that question now.
Square = Circle
June.24.2022 at 9:21 pm
But does this still hold if the fetus never leaves the womb alive?
Nardz
June.24.2022 at 10:01 pm
Yes, because C exists entirely within US jurisdiction. At the point C acts upon B, C has brought B into that jurisdiction with him
Square = Circle
June.24.2022 at 10:06 pm
Doesn't C have to enter jurisdiction A to act upon B?
Nardz
June.25.2022 at 2:42 am
There is no jurisdiction A.
A exists within the jurisdiction of the state, as does C.
B exists within A, so B is out of contact with the external world.
C brings the outside world, the state's jurisdiction, with him into contact with B.
C is a killer-for-hire who profits by taking the lives of defenseless beings. C gets no legal protection.
Nardz
June.25.2022 at 3:09 am
To clarify:
There is no jurisdiction A.
While A and C exist within state jurisdiction, within A is jurisdiction-less space inhabited by B.
The intervention of C extends state jurisdiction into space that had no jurisdiction prior.
It's easier to draw the concept, but I'll try to describe it instead.
We have 3 parties (A, B, C) in 2 spaces/dimensions (X=outside A, Y=inside A).
A+C inhabit X
B inhabits Y
X and Y are separate, unconnected.
The State has jurisdiction in X, thus A and C are within jurisdiction of X, but that jurisdiction does not extend to Y as it is unconnected to X. There exists a barrier between X and Y.
C breaks the barrier bringing Y, and therefore B, into X when C performs the abortion and connects Y to X.
C cannot escape X because C is a subsection of X.
When C enters Y it establishes connection of B to X.
But there is, by virtue of "B exists entirely within A, so I'm fine with considering that outside US or state jurisdiction for the purposes of whatever A does herself."
But I think this is in turn informed by another principle on which we may not agree which is:
"Let's say A is suicidal. If A hangs herself, no crime. But if A hires C to kill her, C is still going to be held liable for murder."
This is not entirely true - there are states and countries that allow assisted suicide, and I personally believe assisted suicide should be considered right, as it is victimless.
If we're going to assert an absolute right of a woman to abort a fetus based on bodily jurisdiction, doesn't it seem to beleaguer taking such a strong moral stand against a medical professional helping her do it safely and with minimal suffering for all involved?
C cannot escape X because C is a subsection of X.
But A can?
Different states will provide different answers to that question now.
Which is as it should be, since contra both Overt and Jeff, it is not all that crystal clear what the right answers are.
You and I both agree that punishing a woman for an abortion won't prevent the murder.
That's right. But that is not an answer to the question that I raised - if abortion is literal murder, why should the woman not be charged with a crime associated with that murder? If the answer is "because it wouldn't do any good in stopping the murder", then that is an argument for having no criminal laws at all. After all, prosecuting a thief for the crime of theft after the fact doesn't prevent the theft from occurring in the first place... The other answer you gave above was that it would be too much of an infringement on civil liberties to prosecute the woman. But if THAT is the case, why not leave the status quo the way it was, in which the civil liberties of the woman is not threatened? And then you responded with:
1) It will decrease abortions, thereby decreasing the number of murders. 2) It will remand to the states a moral question that seems pretty divisive at the federal level. 3) It will end the federal government's support of a morally evil practice.
On #1: using the law as a deterrent effect to create a particular social outcome is a dangerous road. This is a rationale behind gun control laws, or drug laws - create laws that are unenforceable and/or difficult to enforce, with the hope that fear of punishment will convince people to adopt the government's point of view. And in this particular case, there wouldn't even be any fear of punishment from the woman's point of view anyway!
On #2: that is an argument about the proper level of government to decide upon the law, not a reason for having the law one way or another.
On #3: the federal government never *supported* abortion, public funding of it was always illegal.
Feel free to change brainwashed to a longer phrase like "convinced by people who are morally confused". *shrug*
Umm, I don't know if you realize how completely condescending you sound right here. I am quite certain that a large number of women who got abortions were not "morally confused" at the time. Besides, who is to say that they are the ones who are "morally confused" and you are the one who is not? Maybe it is the other way around. Yes, you want to preserve the life of the fetus, we all understand that. But this defense rests on several gigantic moral assumptions, not the least of which is that the fetus has rights in the first place.
"This is not entirely true - there are states and countries that allow assisted suicide, and I personally believe assisted suicide should be considered right, as it is victimless."
That's fine, but the unborn child isn't committing suicide.
"If we're going to assert an absolute right of a woman to abort a fetus based on bodily jurisdiction, doesn't it seem to beleaguer taking such a strong moral stand against a medical professional helping her do it safely and with minimal suffering for all involved?"
She has the right to damage herself internally, and assumes the risk of doing so. Nobody else has a right to profit from killing the unborn child. If a woman thinks she can't safely abort the child herself, oh well. We're talking elective abortions here, so allowing to kill the life she created without fear of penalty is already generous. There is no justification for making that easier or safer, nor allow people to make money from doing it. It's absolutely abhorrent that we've allowed people to make their living, millions even, off committing homicide for so long. The State can reasonably refrain from taking a position on what a woman does herself, accepting that the unborn child is out of its reach, but that isn't true of 3rd party intervention and an industry dedicated to homicide.
"But that is not an answer to the question that I raised - if abortion is literal murder, why should the woman not be charged with a crime associated with that murder?"
No your original assertion was that we ought to investigate every mother for murder if their pregnancy ends. Make up your mind.
But to answer this new item:
1) Because in order to charge women with murder, we would have to investigate these incidents and enforce the investigations and punishments we would have to create a government far more draconian.
2) I don't believe many or most mothers who kill their child intend to snuff a life, even though that is exactly what they are doing. Just as with dueling in the past, it is an unfortunate fact that this great moral wrong has not been treated as such for over 3 generations. Now we could throw millions of women in jail for doing what half the country has told them is ok, or we could begin the long process of changing minds on the matter. The start of that is denormalizing it.
"On #1: using the law as a deterrent effect to create a particular social outcome is a dangerous road."
I have no idea what this means. One of the primary purposes of the government is to prevent the violation of rights by others. I am not seeking a "social outcome". I am seeking the protection of rights of innocent human beings. If governments and their laws didn't deter rights-violators from violating laws, those laws would be good for nothing but vengeance. And vengeance is not (in my mind) the purpose of a government.
"This is a rationale behind gun control laws, or drug laws"
Surprise! It's the rationale behind pretty much every law. Don't rob a house or you'll be thrown in jail! The difference is that one set of laws (robbery and abortion) is trying to deter rights violations while the other set of laws is trying to deter the free exercise of a person's rights.
Just for a moment, imagine that you were Pro Life. Imagine that you were interested in a stable society that values the life of the unborn. You aren't interested in fire and brimstone. You don't want vengeance. You believe that a great evil has ended- a great evil that has unwittingly compromised the moral fiber of millions of people. You want that evil to stay buried and to help the country heal and awaken from this 30 year nightmare.
Would you become a draconian pundit who thru morally confused women in jail in vengeance for abortion? How would that further your ends? It would drive an even bigger wedge preventing the healing of the country. And even if it was somewhat a deterrence, the cost- doubling the size of our prison population- would not be a cost you are willing to pay. The better path to reducing abortion is to dismantle the apparatus that allows it.
When the North won the civil war, they didn't just throw all the slave holders in jail. They didn't even punish the soldiers. There was an attempt to balance the needs of the reunion (sometimes for better and sometimes for worse). The last thing they tried was some dogmatic attempt to punish every single person who had been involved in slavery.
In many cases that meant people who had caused unspeakable evil for decades were not punished for it. The more important task was to end the practice of slavery and ensure that the nation didn't fall apart in the process.
"Umm, I don't know if you realize how completely condescending you sound right here."
Please spare me your white knight moralizing. We can have a discussion or you can try and insult me. We won't be doing both.
"Besides, who is to say that they are the ones who are "morally confused" and you are the one who is not?"
By the by, this rankles me because it seems you want to have it both ways. Your attempt to inject a bunch of emotion about "condescension" notwithstanding, obviously after thinking about the moral case for or against abortion, I am sure I am right. I may be wrong, but so what? The psychopaths in prison could be correct, and there is nothing morally wrong with any sort of killing. If you abandon moral convictions just because someone disagrees, it really isn't a conviction.
Obviously, I believe there is a moral truth here- that abortion is killing a life and we have a moral obligation to protect that life. And here you are objecting to my moral dogmatism out of one side of your mouth. But when, in practice, pro-lifers actually do approach this issue with a non-dogmatic approach, trying to reduce abortions without punishing women who don't share the same moral values, you are here to accuse us of being insincere out the other side of your mouth.
This leads me to believe that you have no interest in understanding the pro life position- you are just trying to construct a bunch of rhetorical traps. If I had said, "Oh yes, let's do investigate and punish women for performing an abortion," you would be insisting that this is to dogmatic, and destructive to civil rights (just as The Jacket is doing above).
If you would stop trying to rhetorically trick Pro-Lifers into abandoning THEIR morals, you would realize that there is a compromise here. I am dedicated to doing the least amount necessary to achieve my moral goals of protecting the rights to life, while recognizing that the mothers looking to kill their children don't see it that way. But in your bizarro world, you are arguing that I SHOULD be treating those women as murderers in a fit of moral absolutism, while ALSO not passing judgement on their moral code because I might be wrong.
That's fine, but the unborn child isn't committing suicide.
No - the medical professional is assisting the mother to do something in a safe manner that we both agree she has a right to do.
I'm sympathetic to the argument that a state can make a law that doctors aren't allowed to do this, and there's certainly no enumerated constitutional right to allow a doctor to do this, but I also don't think there's firm logic saying that no doctor should ever be allowed to do this and that this is something that state power in all circumstances must act to forbid.
Because when you jump straight to calling it "murder", you're stealing a base every bit as much as the pro-choice crowd is stealing a base by declaring it a "personal medical procedure."
Just to toss in an only semi-related analogy, if someone attempts suicide, should we refuse them medical care because attempting suicide is illegal/immoral? I think you would agree that the answer is "no."
So the difference here is only the notion that the abortion is murder, which is a theological position that the government has no business taking a stand on. If the woman were to self harm for any other reason, I think you would agree that she should not be forbidden medical care. If you agree that the woman has a fundamental right to do whatever she wants to her own body, what is the difference here?
A is not escaping X. As far as A is concerned, X and Y are mutually exclusive. X=outside, Y=inside.
Incidentally, doesn't his essentially make abortion acceptable all the way up to the moment the infant leaves the womb?
I mean, someone the other day offered that up as a rebuttal to me - i.e. that you can't really consider a woman's womb to be "inside" of her or "part of" her for the purposes of thinking about the individuality of the fetus.
"Now let's consider the case of a woman who shows up to work visibly pregnant on Friday, but on Monday, not so much. By the pro-life logic, the case of that "missing person" should be investigated by the police for possible foul play, should it not?"
Just as we investigate all heart attacks as a homicide case. It's the exact same thing.
Of course not. Where is your probable cause? Cop comes a knocking they will be hit with restraining order and law suit for harassment. This article is the work of someone in need of serious talk therapy plus mandatory attendance at a primer 101 course on Constitutional Law and how our Constitution works.
"The argument that life begins at conception is at odds not only with history but how we all feel when it comes to miscarriages, which become more far emotionally profound the farther along the pregnancy is."
I'm just gobsmacked by the statement about miscarriages, as if women don't experience profound loss at miscarriage regardless of when it happens. It shows a pretty callous disregard for human life, and an arrogant assumption that everyone shares that callousness.
The argument that life begins at conception is at odds not only with history but how we all feel when it comes to miscarriages, which become more far emotionally profound the farther along the pregnancy is.
He is not saying that miscarriages don't matter early in the pregnancy, he is saying that the loss from miscarriages is *more profound* later in the pregnancy than earlier.
The statement is callous in that it attempts to draw a comparison between the willful termination of an unwanted pregnancy, and the unwilling loss of a wanted pregnancy. It uses the "clump of cells" attitude toward early pregnancies, which is, in and of itself, a callous disregard for human life.
Additionally, it's a shitty proof. It's not measurable, and it's also blatantly false. "We" don't "all" feel that way about miscarriage.
Wait, you don't treat a death from an auto accident differently than a red SUV plowing through a christmas crowd in wisconsin?? Because Nick and Jeff think those are the same things apparently.
Miscarriage and abortion are not two separate worlds. There is a case right now of an American woman in Malta (all abortions are illegal except life of mother).
She had a partial miscarriage at 16 weeks. At that stage, the only way to clean everything out is via a D&C (an abortion procedure). The dctors admit there is zero chance for the fetus to survive but the heart is still beating (so doctors cannot perform the abortion procedure) while various pieces are dead and will now start putrefying. But until sepsis actually sets in, the life of the mother is only potentially at risk rather than at current risk.
“he is saying that the loss from miscarriages is *more profound* later in the pregnancy than earlier”
And it is an absurdly bad statement. I know people who chronically miscarried. Every loss was heart wrenching. The first child was seen on ultrasound at 6 weeks but several after were earlier as they tried to diagnose the problems. And whether they were losing the baby in the first month or longer it was always devastating.
So yeah, Nick is a callous fuck for suggesting that this is “just how people feel” as is anyone defending such blanket declarative mansplaining.
I agree that Nick is collectivizing the experience of a miscarriage and that no two women experience it in the same way. I am simply correcting the record against the claim that Nick is somehow trivializing or dismissing anyone's experience of miscarriage.
You fuck nuts don't even want to give kids school meals so STFU. When you do-gooders adopt all the unwanted children and give them loving homes, in as much as your crowd is capable of love, then A LOT more people would join the anti abortion movement.
There are currently two million people waiting to adopt. That's more than enough to cover all the abortions and the foster children eligible for adoption. So go fuck yourself.
Conservatives really want kids to eat, actually. They'd just prefer private charity step in when parents can't make ends meet to feed their kids, rather than government. Not wanting government to do something is different than not wanting a society to do something.
Just to be pedantic, the Earth and the Sun revolve around a common point called the barycenter (which admittedly, happens to be located within the Sun)
That's why Copernicus failed to create a model that predicted planetary motion better than Ptolemy. Copernicus assumed a Sun stationary at the center of the universe. It wasn't until Kepler figured it out—that the Sun moves—that heliocentric models became more accurate than geocentric ones.
""The argument that life begins at conception is at odds not only with history but how we all feel when it comes to miscarriages, which become more far emotionally profound the farther along the pregnancy is."
What the actual fuck?"
I'd ask Nick why it would be more emotionally profound the farther along it is for a non-human to be removed the female. Does he bemoan the removal of cancerous tumors if they've been there for a long while?
If life begins at conception, there are virtually no limits on government surveillance of women in a post-Roe world.
Most laws only outlaw abortion providers, not people seeking it. This ruling doesn't actually imply anything about government surveillance. Whatever government surveillance predated the ruling is still there. But keep in mind most lawmakers aren't interested in prosecuting women who've gotten abortions.
This is a hyperbolic, emotion-driven reaction, and it's not befitting a publication called Reason. What you should look at is the actual popularity of proposed abortion bans because there's a chance of political blowback against the GOP for overly restrictive abortion laws.
Overturning Roe and Casey didn't settle this issue, it's going to remain hotly contested and will probably take a full election cycle to fully shake out. You shouldn't assume it's going to fall in favor of an extreme position.
Yeah, I don't know why the assumption is automatically that it's going to be the worst case scenario possible, and not the kind of middle of the roadish scenario, where the states you would expect to ban abortion, ban abortion, and the one you would expect to have extremely liberal policies, have extremely liberal policies, and the rest are somewhere in the middle.
I don't even know where this insano idea that governments are going to actively monitor people's sex lives is even coming from. That's just nuts.
I suspect states that have full abortion bans are also going to have to scale back, as well. I think you're going to find there's still support for early-term (before about the 9th week) chemically-induced abortions in the vast majority of states. The bans may end up targeting surgical abortions.
You may be right. But at the end of the day, this isn't going to end up as a nightmare Handmaid's Tale. If you can't get an abortion in your home state, you may have to travel to get one, but you'll still be able to get one regardless of where you live.
Yeah, I don't know why the assumption is automatically that it's going to be the worst case scenario possible,
Gee it's not like on issue after issue, the libertarian commenters here have indulged their worst paranoid fears. Let's review:
Governance Disinformation Board = MINISTRY OF TRUTH
Jan. 6 rioters arrested for actual crimes = POLITICAL PRISONERS
The military rooting out members of extremist groups = THIRD REICH STYLE PURGE
Teaching kids that homosexuality is not an evil perversion = GROOMING
So the rule is, apparently, Democrats should be given no quarter, while Republicans should be given the benefit of the doubt.
And FTR I agree that Nick's hyperbolic predictions are unlikely to come to pass. But if you're going to call out paranoid thinking, at least be a little bit more even-handed about it.
In regards to Jan. 6th, they are being held for over a year, on incredibly minor charges like trespassing or vandalism if that. Meanwhile, people who set fire to cities for months were bailed out of jail by members of the current administration. Also, didn't you scream bloody murder when 1 of those rioters was picked up?
The problem is that you took a lot of comparisons that aren't hyperbole and compared them to silly hyperbole.
Nobody here opposes sentences for the rioters on Jan. 6, it's the peaceful members of the crowd, some who weren't even aware that there had been a riot or any violence, that were being handed overly harsh treatments.
Nobody here likes disinformation, we just think the government shouldn't be policing speech at all. The idea that the government is making "recommendations" on countering disinformation is bad enough, and we've already seen plenty of government attempts to clamp down on speech. That's literally happening, it's not an exaggeration.
I took what people here have actually said about those actions.
Did you somehow miss the weeks of tooth-gnashing around here that the Disinformation Board was a MINISTRY OF TRUTH? That it would lead 3am knocks on the door to drag conservatives to the gulags? I agree that the government should not be setting up a 'disinformation board'. But man the hyperbole and paranoia around here was off the charts. And the ONLY REASON it was so bad was because Democrats were doing it. Trump had his own version of a 'disinformation board' and no one said a peep about it.
So the rule around here is:
Outrageous hyperbole and paranoia against Democrat actions are prudent and justified.
Outrageous hyperbole and paranoia against Republican actions are bad-faith trolling and/or instance of "derangement syndrome".
It’s increasingly garder to tell if you are more dishonest or stupid.
The Disinformation Board was proven to be more than they said it was, it was in fact to be a direct conduit to Big Tech, and Trump had no such thing like it.
They literally raided a guy's house at 4 am, with a full swat team and militarized federal police vehicles, and seized all his electronic devices because he was talking about alternate electors.
This happened just a couple days ago.
[WE] mob authority is getting more extreme by the day...
So I'm not sure where you get off thinking Gov-Guns aren't going to following into an extreme position especially when one can't even find an Individual Right in the Constitution that people own themselves. (I.e. COVID mandates).
The comment attributed to Lincoln that is is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt applies in spades to this piece by Gillespie and several of the other Reason writers.
The past couple months of Reason's stringent, almost unhinged pro-choice articles have pushed me further onto the pro-life side. I mean, that's a sign that you're REALLY doing a shitty job at advancing your side of the issue.
Whatever happened to "safe, legal, and rare" as an advocacy position?
As someone who's been pro-life for most of my life, in the past, I didn't like it, but I could at least make peace with it, as long as it was generally acknowledged that abortion may be legal, but it was definitely undesirable and nobody liked it, and it was generally a private thing that you didn't talk about.
Now there are women on social media "shouting their abortions," and taking abortion pills on the steps of the Supreme Court. It's become a celebration of death.
I was happy to leave it alone until it got that way.
I was totally not anti-gay until they started holding hands and kissing in public!
I was totally pro-women until they started burning their bras!
I was totally pro-black until they protested centuries of state-sanctioned violence!
/s
If someone exercising their liberty where you can see it is enough to turn you against liberty for all members of that class... were you really ever in favor of liberty to begin with?
I'm feeling the same way about the death penalty; the more lunatics like Reason and the Innocence project lie and defend actual guilty people on death row the more I wanna see the bastards hang!
My pro-life position also extends to the death penalty.
There's a large difference between accepting that the compromise position on the practice of abortion exists and I need to live with that reality as best I can, and accepting the excesses of the practice.
Just because I am in favor of full civil rights for LGBT people does not mean I have to accept their current excesses, or I'm not longer in favor of civil rights for LGBT. Just like supporting racial equality means that I have to bend the knee to BLM or I'm no longer in favor of racial equality. They're not the same thing.
Can I just comment on the positive here? Just think: we’ll all get to celebrate our victories here— enabled by liberty lovers like Samuel Alito and Brett Kavanaugh— by having a concealed carry celebration outside their house. What an outstanding way to thank these brave patriots! I mean, can I get a “Yeehaw!” here or what? What a great day to be a Black and gay man who is GOP Proud like Caitlin and Milo.
Clearly emotional NBC newsreader (whom, I believe, identifies as a woman) just stated "this bans abortion in 26 states." "Ban" doesn't mean "restrictions." I really doubt, when the dust settles and the voters in 50 states have their say, there will be even 10 states where abortion is "banned." As for Amendment #9, how is one to identify those "certain rights...retained by the people?" Is it up to 5 justices for life who may have been appointed long before cultural values changed, or by a national referendum, or by the people's representatives in the several states?
13 states alone have "trigger" bans that were passed fairly recently that automatically take effect or with pre-defined approval process or 30 day waiting period starting today. You'll be hard pressed to win any bet on that "10 states" claim of yours.
A number of states still have pre-Roe abortion bans, like Wisconsin, that might have just gone into effect as well.
The majority of the newly passed abortion bans make no exception for rape or incest, either.
Given the current race-to-the-moral-bottom that's happening in the GOP these days, I would expect more than half of US states to ban abortion in nearly all circumstances by this time next year. And keep in mind that the majority of Republicans supported Roe v Wade and didn't want it overturned and yet state after state set up anti-abortion laws designed to reach SCOTUS for this very purpose. You'd think with an actual, representative government, that this couldn't happen. (and if you did think that, you'd be right.) But the norm for a lot of the country now, especially (but not limited to) Red states, gerrymandering has made our governments less representative.
Given the current race-to-the-moral-bottom that's happening in the GOP these days, I would expect more than half of US states to ban abortion in nearly all circumstances by this time next year.
---------
I'll take the under and bet any amount of money you like.
Exactly. The idea if it is not in the constitution it is not protected is so far from the founder's intent it is comical to read all these constitution lovers defending this absurd ruling.
The ruling isn't absurd. OK, there are unenumerated rights, and one of them is the ability to decide how many kids you have. But it doesn't follow that such a right, as a matter of constitutional law, trumps the right of an unborn child to not be murdered, but only until so many weeks of pregnancy.
One just loves that 'unborn' pronoun....
Ya know; like unmade houses... unfinished homework... An undone job... ---- The funny part about it is only in 'abortion' discussion does 'UN' become 'FINISHED'....
If you don't support fetal ejection
UR supporting FORCED reproduction...
Dude! You can't write stuff like this. You are one of the only sane voices left. And this is beyond "slippery slope" crazy argumentum ad absurdum. This is just crazy talk.
We have a once in a century opportunity to actually reach a public consensus on an important and intractable issue.. and You weigh in with such an insane and easily dismissable take? Not you, Nick. You are too good for this.
58% of Americans when polled did not want Roe overturned. What, exactly, is "consensus" in this situation? Is there ever going to be a consensus on a topic that once side frames as "baby killer?" To even attempt consensus implies there's a desire for compromise. We had a compromise that a clear majority favored until today.
Regardless, expecting a group of people who've returned to calling homosexuals "pedophiles" and "groomers" and spouting deep state QAnon hysteria to sit down and form a consensus is just crazy. We don't have an opportunity to come to consensus because one of the players has joined a cult and is living in another reality.
Regardless, expecting a group of people who've returned to calling homosexuals "pedophiles" and "groomers"
Stupidly wrong but typical for someone who concludes the other group isn't reasonable. You'll fit in well with the other left wing commenters. No facts, no reason, but full of lies to justify your hatred.
Much larger majorities do not support abortion after viability. Yet we have places in the US that support abortion on demand long after that.
And if you haven't noticed, there is not a concensus in support of Roe, not even among the legal community, and even there not even among the pro-choice crowd.
The consensus that doesn't exist is around what the national policy on abortion should be, whether you call it a right or not.
Very few people support either extreme... outside of courts and legislatures in states insulated from the consequences of the extreme.
Now we have an opportunity to have the debate. But we are off to a bad start. Pretty much everything being promulgated on the national news is dishonest. And if you start with dishonest premises, you can never reach an honest dialog.
The only question that really needs to be debated is "what is a life that deserves protection". No biggie, right?
The vast majority wants some compromise that allows some form of very early abortion. The more you move away from that, the more people you peel off.
It isn't a position arrives at from first principles. But it may be the only compromise available. "Bodily autonomy" as the only principle leads to abortion on demand up to birth. No sane person supports that, even though you will get partisans mouthing the words when asked to parrot the party line. "Life begins at conception" is at least a defensible moral stance, so moving some people from that will be difficult. But it is too absolute to be workable in reality.
So compromise it is... a fundamentally political exercise. There can be no ideal solution to this... there are fundamental principles that are necessarily in direct and irreconcilable conflict.
You understand that Roe was not legislation and the judiciary is not a legislature? Public opinion does not matter to a court decision, only if the ruling comforts with the constitution.
"public consensus" on the PERSONAL reproduction process....
Yeah!!! I wonder what other PERSONAL things can become "public domain"..... /s
When will [WE] mob group-sex start by "public consensus"?? Surely sexual intercourse can't be left up to just a couple to decide... It must be "public consensus"!
Indeed, even the Catholic Church, which has long been the most vocally anti-abortion religious group in America, didn't formally condemn abortion until the mid-19th century.
No, and it didn't formally define the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary until 1950, but you from the earliest days of the Church, you didn't find anybody claiming to have first-class relics of her body, meaning that it was universally accepted that such things didn't exist (her body being in heaven).
There's a lot of arguments like that. The Theology of The Body didn't really develop much until recently as well. The Church develops doctrine as the world brings questions.
Or, reading the rulings, in one case the constitution is clear about a natural right, and in the other there is no right there as far as the federal government is concerned.
Everyone wants to argue about Abortion or Gun Control. They've been emotional and divisive issues politicians have played on my entire life. But, especially for a libertarian magazine, these aren't the issues.
The issues are states' rights (10A) where anything not specifically enumerated is reserved to states and people -- it's not Federal responsibility if it doesn't say it is.
And, very obviously, 2A, which very specifically lists a right that cannot be infringed. By leaving decisions to the whims of some random official, you now no longer have a right. Dude at the county courthouse doesn't like you? No permit! That gives power to deny a right often to a single individual in government, which is antithetical to the entire notion of a natural right.
But, you know, they're killing babies/enslaving women or they're taking my guns/arming bad guys. For fuck's sake, it has nothing to do with either thing. It's just the level of government who is specifically charged with taking care of something and adhering to the constitution in so doing.
Whatever. Point out something to a cat, it's likely to look at your finger, not where you're pointing.
Putting aside your positions on the specific issues, states rights in modern times is an almost archaic remnant of our past and has little to do with it present and almost nothing to do with our future. Consider:
Americans are most informed on national issues and national elected leaders and know nothing about their state elected leaders and state issues. Sending things to the states is tantamount to burying them where special interests can run rampant. This is a function of dying local newspapers and the heightened mobility of residents who no longer are born raised and die where their ancestors were.
The infatuation with states rights is illogical and based on a no longer true fantasy about government close to the people. By the way, DeSantis has specialized in getting numerous laws passed which take control from cities and counties and place it with the state, including penalties for drying or challenging the state. That's what is meant by states rights?
Joe reveals the delusion shared with too many Americans: they want society to be a certain way, and have no reluctance to violate fundamental principals of a notionally free society to make us that way.
Joe Friday... Cheering for >>>National<<< Socialism again...
Ya know that same ideology officially the National Socialist German Worker's Party headed by Hitler or in Germany Language called '(Na)tionalso(zi)alistische' which quickly got abbreviated to Nazi.....
Only Nazism is 'logical' to Joe Friday and his ilk...
Joe - if you feel that way, then amend the Constitution to rewrite the entire document. What you've offered is an opinion on how you think governance should be that bears no relationship to the written document.
Don't have the supermajorities to do that? Well, then, tough shit - that simply proves there's not a consensus that the whole system should be changed to match your preferences.
That sperm and that egg are living tissue. So tell me again when life starts? Hey guys quit pleasuring yourself. Every time you do you are murdering 200 million potential lives. My belief is that sperm are actually babies!!!! You murderous monsters! The government should impose my beliefs on you. Outlaw masturbaton!!
So, behold, the governmant acting on christian beliefs, taking away freedoms.
Guess the GOP got government off our backs and up into women's uteri. I for one don't think government has any business in the uterus, I am for uterine sovereignty. Just because a woman contains a fertilized egg that doesn't justify the government taking control of her body.
It's also very amusing that the same people that think passing legislation attempting to control guns will never work somehow think outlying abortion will.
It's also very amusing that the same people that think passing legislation attempting to control guns will never work somehow think outlying abortion will.
Invalid comparison. The people who want to ban guns do so because they believe that if they don't, a substantial number of people owning guns will do bad things with them. Those who want to ban abortion do so, not because they believe people having abortions will do bad things with them, but because they believe the abortion itself is a bad thing.
They believe more than one person is involved in any abortion.
Leftists cannot acknowledge this perspective.
Leftists are totalitarian cancer, so they want to ban firearms using the excuse that those firearms could take a life... yet treat abortion as sacred despite the fact that abortion is literally taking a life.
Well if you think that the process of aborting a 34 to 36 week unborn child is not killing another person you have a pretty uphill argument, even with your precious scientists. Forget Christian beliefs just ask a scientist. Additionally the only nations that allow very late term abortions are China and North Korea and other dictatorships. The bulk of civilized nations have time limits on abortions. The U.S. for some reason has gotten comfortable with the ghoulish process of aborting babies after 24 weeks.
Science doesn't answer who is a "person." That's a legal question. And if we use Justice Alito's own framework to answer that question, it begins at birth, not conception. Historically, abortions were largely legal through "quickening" which I've ready is roughly equivalent to 16 weeks.
A large number of nations allow "very late term" abortions. This isn't controversial as these are largely due to the baby having died in the womb first or having some other abnormality that would likely harm the mother were she to continue with the pregnancy. Women who do not want to give birth will abort far, far sooner if they have the means. Abortions later in pregnancy are nearly always due to health of the mother.
But if that doesn't convince you, ask yourself this: why would a woman want to let her body grow to such a large size, her hormones go all out of whack, her back hurt, her feet swell, and needing constant trips to the bathroom only to get a "no reason" voluntary abortion at 34 weeks when she could have popped a pill at 5 weeks instead? Do you hold so dim a view of women?
The current positions are "it is not your business and the state cannot have any say" and "it is killing a baby and cannot be allowed".
This is the beginning of a road map to a practical compromise that a majority might be able to live with.
"It is murder" becomes less relevant in the case of something like anencephaly. It is hard to argue that a baby without a brain at all is a person. Most people can empathize with a couple nearing the end of their reproductive years not wanting to waste what may be their last chance to have a child on a baby-shaped mass that can never survive, never think, never feel, never have anything of personhood.
I have known several couples faced with that dilemma. A couple at my church chose to carry to term. One was a few years ago and they have not been able to have another. (No, I am not gonna ask if they regret the decision).
The edge cases here make any policy really difficult to live with.
If life begins at conception, there are virtually no limits on government surveillance of women in a post-Roe world.
Exactly. You youngsters won't remember this, but before Colorado started the trend of liberalizing abortion law in 1967, it was literally like The Handmaid's Tale in the United States.
It would be more helpful and efficacious if Reason gave instructions, guides and helpful tidbits, on how Pro-Lifers can best protect themselves from the violent brownshirts womyn in skirts TRANS clothing from now until when Jesus returns for the Second Coming. Listing of Sale prices, shipping costs, and max number allowed of items for purchasing ammo for guns and rifles would be bonus!
Here is a very simple idea about abortion. If a person really believes that abortion is in fact the killing of an actual human being whatever the time period what are they supposed t do just look the other way? Leftists have "compassion" for everything from a bird up to and including a convicted murder on death row. Yet they cannot even acknowledge that an unborn child should be considered at all when an abortion is desired. Seems to be an intellectual disconnect. An innocent life is of no value while a grown adult that murdered or raped another is to be advocated for. Logical?
Woah. If you believe one thing and you know there are a lot of people around you who don’t believe as you do, you might want to consider that your belief might be wrong, or at least a little off, before you impose your belief on all of them.
That is one of the more disturbing things about modern conservatism. The arrogance and the complete lack of humility. THEY are the normative standard, and if you disagree it's because you are wrong and hate America.
Woah. If you believe one thing and you know there are a lot of people around you who don’t believe as you do, you might want to consider that your belief might be wrong, or at least a little off, before you impose your belief on all of them.
Is that what you would have told people trying to enact the Civil Rights Act of 1964 so as to outlaw discrimination by private businesses?
Okay, let's take this as a moral standard for the sake of argument: If you think someone is acting in a dramatically immoral way that is endangering themselves or others, you are obligated to act on your beliefs.
So, take a devout Evangelical Christian who sees that a neighboring family is raising their kids as atheists or Wiccans. That Christian "really believes" that this is endangering the children's immortal souls and damning them to hell. They are obligated to act and get them to safety. Do they:
a) kidnap them and baptize them against their parent's will?
b) pass laws requiring all children be baptized as Evangelical Christians?
c) loudly berate the parents whenever you see them?
d) all of the above.
I'm sure Evangelicals are very devout and sincere in their beliefs that raising a child in a same-sex marriage, or atheist, or Wiccan is seriously damaging to children. Do they look the other way?
Us "Leftists" see that there are a balance of issues surrounding abortion and not just the potential life represented by the fetus. There's also the life of the woman, any children or other dependents she may already have, and the fact that this is a deep intrusion into her personal space and bodily autonomy. This could be the result of a rape or she has a condition that pregnancy could complicate and risk her life. Seeing things as only black and white is morally simplistic and lazy.
So, it comes down to intrusion into a woman's personal space and bodily autonomy. Does that mean any similar intrusions, for any person, are wrong, even if self-induced? Can I demand cancelation of any intrusion that I decide is unfair? Does this mean I can refuse to pay the bill for the cruise I just went on?
Obviously, I'm not an intellectual, sarcastic or even funny, and nothing I write ever elicits positive responses from anyone, but you've expressed my opinion to a certain extent. If you think that abortion is murder, it is hard to look the other way. I understand all the points about imposing your beliefs on someone else or forcing someone to give birth, which do sound harsh. Abortion has become so routine, accepted (and celebrated) that it's hard to justify a pro-life position. I understand the religious principles and also the science behind that position. I think it's about packaging more than anything else. We live in a world that spits on religious people, so if they are marketing pro-life, it must be wrong. Scientific explanations are only accepted when a political position is strengthened by them. If only we could make pro-life cool. I am consistent, if nothing else, since I am against capital punishment and am a vegan.
If you think that abortion is murder, it is hard to look the other way.
This reveals the insincerity of the "abortion is killing babies" crowd. If they genuinely believed that babies were being murdered at abortion clinics, mobs of them would rise up and destroy the facilities in order to save those lives. That nearly all of them are reasonable about it and willing to use the political process to restrict abortion rather than violent direct action tells us that, contrary to their words, they really do see the difference between terminating a pregnancy and murdering a child.
So people like Abraham Lincoln who said that slavery was a great moral evil but weren't willing to support violent direct action against it of the sort taken by John Brown must have been hypocrites who didn't really believe what they said.
Yes; both parties are complete hypocrites on the 'abortion' debate.
Pro-Life fits so well in the Democrats mentality (F'Liberty) -- Ironically most Democrats are Catholics and the Catholic church founded the Pro-Life movement.
Pro-Choice fits well in the Republican platform (LIMITED Government).
Back in those days, the Democratic party may have been more reliably pro-life than the Republicans. Back then, remember, even Ted Kennedy and Jesse Jackson were pro-life, and there were a lot of conservative Catholic Dems.
Nick, you’re old enough to remember before Roe, we’re cops routinely searching women’s vaginas and putting their hands on every fat chicks stomach to check for babies?
It was the Supreme Courts interpretation of Individual Rights form the U.S. Constitution (pretty sure you know that one no matter how ignorant of it you *want* to pretend).
Even post-Roe, women couldn't get personal credit or divorce without permission from their husbands. And husbands could legally rape their wives. What makes you think we needed cops back then to sniff out pregnant women?
But we can look to a similar situation back then to shed light on how this could go: sodomy laws. Regardless of how they were written, these were basically designed to criminalize gay men. Police would routinely patrol areas known for gay clientele and raid them (see: Stonewall Inn among many, many others.) They would round the men up, book them, and then often have their photo and names published in the local paper. After which, the men would lose their jobs, family, and futures.
How might this look today? Imagine a world where everything is tracked via a snooping device you carry with you everywhere you go. It tracks everything you read. All of your questions. Tracks your location and the devices of other people near that location. It helps track all of your purchases, too. With that information, there's no need to give women the "Trump treatment" by grabbing their vaginas, just filter all of their personal information through an AI designed to spot women likely to have sought out an abortion. Done! You've saved liberty!
I really look forward to seeing the articles from the extended Reason staff. I know Nick is a major person, but he writes less these days. So, it's good to hear from him.
I look forward to Slade and KMW.
Libertarians for emotional, over-reacting to a bad law being over-turned. - Reason Editors
Seriously Nick, this is pathetic. Please stop pretending to be a Libertarian and just admit your a far left progressive. You'll be happy and so will everybody else.
Omg.... Get off this 'bad federal law' narrative...
The Supreme Court recognizing that "the people" own themselves isn't bad-legislative law or wrong [WE] mob Gov-Gun Power... It is the very ENTITY put in-charge to OPPRESS Gov-Gun Dictation and grant people their Individual Liberty.
Without it; The Constitution has absolutely NOTHING to back it.
Some of the complete crap and utter B.S. I hear by Power-Mad freaks trying to justify their dictation is insane.
Really? The fact that contraceptives were illegal in Connecticut before Griswold didn't mean contraceptives weren't readily available from doctors who wanted to provide them. The practical effect of the law was merely to keep Planned Parenthood from opening clinics and advertising to the world that you could get pills and condoms there.
If one takes the pro-life position literally, then every fertilized egg has just as much of a right to life as a fully grown human being, and any suspected "foul play" that occurs to that fertilized egg should be investigated to determine if it is a case of murder, just the same as if the same had happened to a fully grown human being.
But we know that this is not even the pro-lifers' own position, since prominent pro-life organizations like the NRLC doesn't want to prosecute women who pursue abortions. Why not? If abortion is literal murder, wouldn't a woman pursuing an abortion AT LEAST be guilty of attempted murder? Why shouldn't that be pursued?
So the pro-life position appears to be that abortion is murder, but not literal 'murder' murder, just kinda-sorta murder, not murdery enough for the woman to face any legal consequences, but definitely murdery enough to throw the doctors in jail. And, don't worry, not murdery enough to jeopardize any other rights like Fourth Amendment rights or anything like that.
So, abortion is fine, as long as the woman does a sufficiently good job of concealing the murder?
Maybe the state shouldn't prosecute professional assassins who are good at covering up their crimes. After all, if no one believes it was an assassination, then no crime occurred, right?
And how many "anti-murder" organizations can you name, where said organization says, in their public stance, "but we don't want to hold the murder-host who chose murder responsible, we want to hold responsible, ONLY the hired murder agent?" Besides anti-abortion fanatics, that is?
Plain and simple, anti-abortion fanatics are logically inconsistent publicity whores who want to loudly moan "murder", but then, to make themselves and their fanaticism more palatable to people who fence-straddle when trying to buy their fascism, they add, "but the murder-choosing woman should get off extremely lightly or Scott-free". They are having it both ways!
Here's the equivalent of what many anti-abortion fanatics say:
"The landlord that evicts the tenant, and I don't like it? The landlord should NOT be punished, but the cops and the deputies that come over to the perform the eviction? Punish THEM!"
Maybe the state shouldn't prosecute professional assassins who are good at covering up their crimes. After all, if no one believes it was an assassination, then no crime occurred, right?
I do not understand your point here. You seem to be claiming that if no one is aware a crime has taken place then the system shouldn't prosecute it. And the answer to that is, obviously. That's like a question of the consequences of human knowledge being limited.
Many people here are celebrating that abortion bans won't be so terrible after all because all women have to do is to be good at hiding the body. We would never take that same attitude for laws against murder of grown people. "Look, the laws against murder aren't such a big deal, all you have to do to get away with it is to hide the body really really well! See?"
Jailed for 12, 16 months enough for you, authoritarian power pig? It only counts if it is for the LIFE of the woman who (supposedly) defies The Will of Der JesseBahnFuhrer?
Chelsea Becker mentioned in The Guardian, “She was jailed for losing her pregnancy.” Happens a LOT, already! Jailed for 12, 16 months, in cases mentioned here. It WILL happen some more, especially if “R” Party gets its way here! Victims are the poor and powerless as usual. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/03/california-stillborn-prosecution-roe-v-wade ... “Say her name”, people!
There's at least two points being made here. I will try to respond to them.
If one takes the pro-life position literally, then every fertilized egg has just as much of a right to life as a fully grown human being, and any suspected "foul play" that occurs to that fertilized egg should be investigated to determine if it is a case of murder, just the same as if the same had happened to a fully grown human being.
Except we don't investigate every single death unless there is evidence of foul play. There's no reason to expect that this would change in these circumstance.
My grandfather died early last year. He died alone in his room, no witnesses. Very suspicious, right? No. No it was not.
There was no investigation into his death because there was no reason to believe that there was foul play. We make these prudential decisions in every single death, in basically all crimes. You are right, this would lead to investigation of foul play. That's a whatever point because that is true of literally every crime. If you're making an argument that there should not be criminal law, make it. I'm will to discuss it.
So the pro-life position appears to be that abortion is murder, but not literal 'murder' murder, just kinda-sorta murder, not murdery enough for the woman to face any legal consequences, but definitely murdery enough to throw the doctors in jail.
There's several versions on this position in the ban all abortions pro-life camp. There's even more once you include people who believe in some restrictions but not a total ban. This is a confusion over pro-life/pro-choice which are insufficiently descriptive for the variety of opinions held.
But yes, many pro-life positions would believe it is murder and that the woman should be held accountable for it. In fact, many folks believe that to deny that fact treats women as morally incompetent, not capable of accountability for their actions. I don't know the NRLC position, I'm sure you can go and read their arguments on it because you bring up an incredibly obvious point, it probably has a stance or at least discussion on the question.
The reason that women ultimately won't likely face any consequence for things legally is because there is little political will to enforce that or pass laws because political agreements that end in legislation do not represent coherent philosophical views but a compromise over a large amount of concerns.
There was no investigation into his death because there was no reason to believe that there was foul play. We make these prudential decisions in every single death, in basically all crimes.
Well, there WAS an investigation, it was just perfunctory.
"How did he die?"
"Of natural causes. In his sleep."
"Okay then. Let's write up the death certificate."
And I am not an anarchist so yes I do believe there should be criminal law. And the vigor in which crimes should be investigated is proportional to the perceived severity of the crime. The crime of murder is towards the top of the list, the crime of shoplifting, not so much. And ANY investigation of any vigor is intrusive and disruptive. We broadly tolerate such intrusive investigations for the larger goal of prosecuting severe crimes, because the cause of justice is more important than a temporary inconvenience (provided all other rights are respected of course).
So when it comes to abortion, the pro-life crowd can't really have it both ways: they can't really claim that abortion is both so severe that it ought to be treated as murder, but yet not so severe that it shouldn't be investigated or prosecuted with the same vigor as murder. Either it is that severe, or it isn't. Make up your mind.
Be careful of that argument because if you're saying the doctor that prescribed the Plan B pills to the mother is an accomplice to a crime, then what does that imply for gun sales?
I'm going to make a new post at the bottom of this thread. Let's talk. Just ignore other folks who may or may not attempt to shit talk you or me in the middle of that thread.
Good luck Bucks. He has made up his mind. He won't argue in good faith. His premise alone initiates an argument from bad faith as he misrepresented his opponents arguments at lock step. Further he refuses to address which actual actions/laws he is discussing here, again due to bad faith.
So when it comes to abortion, the pro-life crowd can't really have it both ways: they can't really claim that abortion is both so severe that it ought to be treated as murder, but yet not so severe that it shouldn't be investigated or prosecuted with the same vigor as murder. Either it is that severe, or it isn't. Make up your mind.
Apparently chemjeff believes every death must be investigated as a homicide because some deaths are homicides. After all, however can we know the difference?
Leftists pretend this nonsense is compelling because they just don't have anything better, but their emotionalism won't let them think the matter through and come to a rational conclusion.
This might not be the same everywhere, but in my state, if someone dies anywhere other than in their home or in a health care facility, there is automatically an investigation to determine if foul play occurred.
Get Ready for the Post-Emancipation Proclamation Abolitionist Police!
If Blacks are human, there are virtually no limits on government surveillance of Southern Gentlemen in a post-Roe world.
Get Ready for the Post-Roe Sex Police!
If life begins at conception, there are virtually no limits on government surveillance of women in a post-Roe world.
Yes Really... Now sit down and take your Prenatal pills like a good "baby" incubator or we'll sick the Gov-Guns on you for endangering and probably trying to kill 'unborn' ?babies?....
No, really. Don't you remember how there were virtually no limits on government surveillance of women in the pre-Roe world? It was literally like living under sharia.
Prolifers now have the power to implement their version of CS Lewis' self righteous dogoodism. "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~ C. S. Lewis
It's always amusing when the moralizing busybodies complain about moralizing busybodies. At least the ones you hate are interested in saving lives though. That seems a better moral stance than claiming to be "unsafe" because of someone's Halloween costume.
The particularly retarded part about your take, JFree, is that Lewis was arguing against moralism, not morals. A distinction you seem completely unfamiliar with.
Hey, aren't you the moralizing busybody faggot piece of shit who spent the last 30 months insisting on concentration camps and, when they became available, compulsory treatment with experimental therapeutics to deal with a mild respiratory virus? Oh hey look - you are.
Are you suggesting that abortion laws *are* written for the good of the abortionist (i.e., the "victim" of the law to which JFree is trying to make Lewis's statement applty)?
Honestly? I want to argue that we adopt some sense of fucking humility in general. We CANNOT know what any other person really goes through in their life. So I do not want to hear collectivizations that women who get abortions are just irresponsible sluts. Or, for that matter, that women who get abortions are just oppressed wymyn who have no other choice. Every person is unique and every person ought to be assumed to be the best judge of how best to live their own life. Isn't that one of the huge premises of libertarianism? That government specifically, but no other person broadly, really has the moral authority to peer into anyone else's life and FORCE them to live their lives in some other way? That is not just true of abortion. That is true of almost any issue. The people on the left who want to take away guns, they cannot possibly know what it is like to live in a crime-riddled neighborhood where a woman's only protection of making it home safely every night might be the pistol in her purse. The people on the right who want to ban abortion, they cannot possibly know what it is like to have to make difficult horrible decisions about what to do when faced with an unwanted pregnancy which might not even be the woman's fault. They cannot possibly know. So I want to tell both crowds of authoritarians to fuck off.
If they want to give voluntary advice? Fine. If they want to use FORCE? Hell no.
So specifically when it comes to abortion, I think that "quickening" is probably the fairest standard. Because once "quickening" happens, there is empirical undeniable objective proof that a separate human life has been created. But before that point? Good people of good faith can have an honest disagreement, and when there is no objective proof one way or another, the decision should fall to the woman to decide what is best for her life. Because she is the ONLY one who knows what is best for her life. No one else is. If pro-lifers want to build a "culture of life" to encourage her to keep the child - good for them. If pro-choicers want to build a "culture of empowerment" to encourage her to choose what is best for her life - good for them. But neither one should FORCE their culture onto anyone.
Honestly? I want to argue that we adopt some sense of fucking humility in general. We CANNOT know what any other person really goes through in their life. So I do not want to hear collectivizations that women who get abortions are just irresponsible sluts.
I know that's the argument I've always made. So I guess I'd better start defending that.
I understand the intellectual arguments in favor of libertarianism. But honestly the emotional driving force for me is not discussion of marginal tax rates, but a passionate desire to recognize each person as being an individual endowed with liberty and recognized as such. That each one has a unique life story that we cannot possibly comprehend in total, we NEVER will understand, and the best policy for everyone to live their best lives is to take a hands-off approach and let them live their lives without anyone FORCING them to do otherwise.
Of course, because not everyone is an expert at everything, people will naturally seek advice on what to do. And it is totally fine to give advice that we think is helpful and prudent. But we shouldn't FORCE it on people. We have to trust people to know what is best for themselves and if they make a decision that we don't understand, it is not because "they are stupid", it is because we cannot fully internalize who they are.
That's as coy an answer as "Roe is settled law."
1) it assumes the next GOP majority in Congress won't legislate bans nationwide thus negating the whole "states rights" ploy.
2) It assumes that state governments are reasonably representative (competitive), which they are not given the state of gerrymandering and voter suppression.
3) The latest Gallup poll says 58% of Americans wanted to keep Roe. Now, roughly the same number will live in states with no access to abortion at all.
4) "tough luck" isn't part of getting along; it's winner-take-all.
1) States' right are not negated. SCOTUS just ruled this is a state issue. If the federal government creates legislation, the states have recourse thru the court base on Dobbs.
2) Complete nonsense
3) It doesn't matter what 58% of the people want when it comes to SCOTUS rulings. SCOTUS is not a representative body. And "no access" is nonsense. They may not have access in their state of residence, but they be able to access abortion in other states where it is legal.
4) "I won. Get over it." - President Barack Obama
Winifred Phildo-Dildo is yet ANOTHER Tulpa sock!!!
“Dear Abby” is a personal friend of mine. She gets some VERY strange letters! For my amusement, she forwards some of them to me from time to time. Here is a relevant one:
Dear Abby, Dear Abby,
My life is a mess,
Even Bill Clinton won’t stain my dress,
I whinny seductively for the horses,
They tell me my picnic is short a few courses,
My real name is Mary Stack,
NO ONE wants my hairy crack!
On disability, I live all alone,
Spend desperate nights by the phone,
I found a man named Richard (Dick) Decker,
But he won’t give me his hairy pecker!
Dick Decker’s pecker is reserved for farm beasts,
I am beastly, yes! But my crack’s full of yeasts!
So Richard Decker the hairy pecker told me that, apparently never even realizing just HOW DEEPLY it hurt me, that he was all interested in farm beasts, while totally ignoring MEEE!!
So I thought maybe I could at least liven up my lonely-heart social life, by refining my common interests that I share with Richard Decker… I, too, like to have sex with horses!
But Dear Abby, the horses ALL keep on saying “neigh” to my whinnying sexual advances!
Some tell me that my whinnying is too whiny… Abby, I don’t know how to fix it!
Dear Abby, please don’t tell me “get therapy”… I can’t afford it on my disability check!
Now, along with my crack full of yeasts… I am developing anorexia! Some are calling me a “quarter pounder with cheese”, but they are NOT interested at ALL, in eating me!!! They will NOT snack on my crack!
What will I DO, Dear Abby?!?!?
-Desperately Seeking Horses, Men, or ANYTHING, in Fort Worth,
Yours Truly,
R Mac / Mary Stack / Tulpa / Mary’s Period / “.” / Satan
If a Republican Congress enacts a nationwide ban on abortion, the Dems will be in a quandry: Do they fight the law as exceeding the enumerated powers of Congress (which it obviously would be), or do they continue to hold that Congress can do whatever the hell it wants under the guise of "regulating interstate commerce"? I'll have a big bucket of popcorn ready when that happens.
Okay, I am thinking how to respond to your comment. I think you are, generally, not a troll. Though we're all prone to being trollish from time to time, so don't take that as a significant criticism. I am trying to be very neutral here, you know my stance on this, but it's also been a very long day for me so please accord anything I say with at least positive intent. Feel free to disagree, or call out if you think I'm needlessly vague, but please don't seek for bad motives.
So, you want to argue for abortion in general. I believe that is what I take from your statement above. So, let's step back from the question at hand in Dobbs, which is at it's core a question of the explicit constitutionality of the question and whether the right to make that decision lies within the judiciary. There's a lot else caught up here because of the consequences at hand. The core question is as stated, because the constitutionality of a question is the core question of every high court decision. I want to slice this very thin, because I am going to attempt to steelman your position.
Here I go:
The world is inherently messy and one in which each of us, every single day, makes many decisions. There is no known objective answer to these decisions as the facts differ, often times in subtle but in important ways, for each case. Further, each individual has different preferences they optimize for. Some prefer safety, some prefer future reward, some prefer the possibility of instant gain. Some prefer family; some prefer art; some prefer drinking. We do not have access to a objective morality. Even Christians believe that an objective reality exists, but our ability to grasp it in its totality is limited, and often quite limited. They would say that God may know it, but we can only grasp at it.
Each individual has inherent worth though, and because of that, we can comfortably say that people are due some protections, in particular we form a government to provide some amount of protection from violence. But, the government is a collection of people as well, and so they too should be strongly limited in their ability to exert decision making upon any specific individual as well. This puts us in a place where we attempt to draw the line of government authority as tightly as possible. There are certain things that are so strongly agreed upon (such as that one adult should not be able to inflict violence on another unconsenting adult) that it is reasonable to concede some authority to government to deal with that.
The threshold for that agreement should be incredibly high though, and in cases where it's less then, let's say 90% agreement (set the threshold to whatever you feel comfortable), the government should be actively disallowed from enforcing any viewpoint upon an individual at all.
Abortion puts into play a tension between the rights of two individuals. They are inherently difficult to extricate. But because the mother is undoubtedly a full human with rights, and the question of humanity for the child is often in bitter disagreement, the government should remain neutral on the question and leave it to the culture to deal with the issue on a person-by-person basis.
Jeff: What do you think about my attempt to steelman your argument?
Also, I do think this may be contentious to you: So, you want to argue for abortion in general. I believe that is what I take from your statement above. So, let's step back from the question at hand in Dobbs, which is at it's core a question of the explicit constitutionality of the question and whether the right to make that decision lies within the judiciary. There's a lot else caught up here because of the consequences at hand. The core question is as stated, because the constitutionality of a question is the core question of every high court decision.
There is a procedural question we have here. We have a system of government, and how should it function. There's a lot to dig through on this question as well about appropriate procedures in the system of government we have in the US, how the government should orient itself, and just a whole lot that often goes unsaid in these types of judicial discussions. Feel free to say if you want to discuss that question. I will ask you bring it up another day though as it's getting late and I'd prefer to discuss the what I wrote above because that took awhile to write and I have to walk my dog in like an hour.
If there is no clear unambiguous answer, really, government should get out of the way.
I trust women to make decisions that they believe are in their best interest.
I trust doctors to make sound professional ethical decisions on what they think is best for their patients.
For many of these questions there is no objective right or wrong answer. (Belief in an objective morality is not the same as a belief that there is an objectively moral solution for every question ever posed.) So for situations in which it is unclear whether there is a separate human life that has formed, that is bestowed with the same natural rights as you or me, I will trust doctors and women to decide what is best for themselves. After that point, THEN, there is a third human life that must be considered, and the duty of parents is to care for their children.
BUCS, I think you are the closest person to an honest broker around here (including myself, really), so I appreciate your efforts.
Jeff: What do you think about my attempt to steelman your argument?
I think you are in the ballpark. But there are a few differences.
First: A belief in objective morality is not inconsistent with a belief that each individual should be free to live his/her own life as he/she sees fit. I do believe that there are objective standards of right and wrong on some level. But I am not willing to force everyone to adopt those standards.
Second:
Abortion puts into play a tension between the rights of two individuals.
Well, yes and no. In my view, before the "quickening" (or whatever other objective measure you wish to devise that unambiguously demonstrates that a separate human life has been created), we are not even sure that a separate individual bestowed with rights even exists. So before that point, it's not a conflict between rights of two individuals, it is instead a matter of choosing the rights of the individual that we know unambiguously does exist (the woman) over the "rights" of the fetus that may or may not exist as an individual bestowed with rights.
A belief in objective morality is not inconsistent with a belief that each individual should be free to live his/her own life as he/she sees fit.
Indeed - hence "judge not," and "vengeance is Mine" - there's a long history of Christian moral thinking - William of Ockham was big on this - that there is objective morality, but only God sees it, which is why you, as an absurdly limited individual, have no right to judge others - that's God's job.
So before that point, it's not a conflict between rights of two individuals, it is instead a matter of choosing the rights of the individual that we know unambiguously does exist (the woman) over the "rights" of the fetus that may or may not exist as an individual bestowed with rights.
Some great circular logic here. We know the fetus exists. We know the fetus has a distinct genetic code. We know the fetus is growing and aging. We know it is alive.
Please as an "honest broker" define an individual that excludes those facts we know.
How do you define a fetus or a baby as not an individual despite science telling us exactly those things.
So your position is, as long as there is a lack of clarity on whether a fetus has personhood, we should just assume it doesn't, and thus assume it is not entitled to rights, and defer all rights to the entity we are certain has personhood, even to the objective harm of the one in question?
If we cannot say for certain what the best course of action is, then we should defer to the individual(s) most directly involved in that decision to do what they think is best.
So, yes, then? If there is a lack of clarity on "personhood," the default should be to deny personhood, even if doing so does objective harm to the individual in question?
Leave the decision up to the *best judgment* of the people most directly involved. That should be the default.
So when Richard Kretschmar wrote to the Führer, explaining how his severely disabled (blind, missing an arm and a leg, and probably mentally deficient) son Gerhard was not living a life worth living, the Führer did the right thing by ordering that the authorities should implement the best judgment of the people most directly involved--the parents who would otherwise be saddled with the burden of raising "This Monster" (as his father described him) and have Gerhadt humanely euthanized.
because the mother is undoubtedly a full human with rights, and the question of humanity for the child is often in bitter disagreement, the government should remain neutral on the question and leave it to the culture to deal with the issue on a person-by-person basis
Not speaking for Jeff, but this is essentially exactly my position, in a nutshell. Man steeled!
You make the assumption that a zygote or a fetus is an "individual." I think you need to clarify that. Legally, it's not a person. If you examine how law deals with miscarriages or the murder of a pregnant woman, you'll see that it doesn't see the fetus as a legal person. The history of our country and Western culture in general doesn't really see a fetus as something with full human rights. You elevate the fetus to be equal to the mother without comment. I think that needs explanation. In every state that passed a near total ban on abortions recently, all of them make an exception for the life of the mother. So the law already weighs the two differently, even where they ban abortions for rape and incest.
I don't understand your division of "the government" and "the culture." For starters, any government is likely to represent some diversity of culture within any given locality--even Salt Lake city is a mix of races, religions, sexualities, etc. So what is "the culture?" Are you meaning "the majority" where you live and isn't that "the government" if we assume fair representation is the norm? If "the government" hands it back to "the people" to decide, that's disingenuous since they are one and the same. So it's the government either way.
The rights of the mother and her fetus are not "inherently difficult to extricate." The mother hasn't lost her legal rights and the fetus has none because it isn't a person. The bitter disagreement over its humanity likely has high correlation with belief in a deity/ies and what that deity's religion believes. It's a religious view and not an objective one. The religious disagreement may be keenly important to the adherents of that faith but it isn't universal and their faith doesn't imbue the disagreement with validity. But when the government is made up of the majority culture, religious law gains government force, which is where the judiciary is supposed to step in to preserve civil rights for the minority in our society. (In theory but rarely in practice.)
I think your steelman still has a few stray bits of straw.
It's also important to discuss the state of equal rights for women in this country along with the historic arguments against abortion that largely focused on "loose women" stereotypes rather than fetal rights. Having a discussion about the balance of rights between a fetus and a woman without recognizing that the woman starts the discussion at a disadvantage relative to the majority male legislatures and judiciary would be irresponsible. By example, women couldn't get credit without their husband's permission prior to the 1970s and their husbands could legally rape them. The last state to outlaw marital rape was in 1993.
If you examine how law deals with miscarriages or the murder of a pregnant woman, you'll see that it doesn't see the fetus as a legal person.
Actually shreek, if you weren't an incredibly stupid pedophile with no adult reasoning abilities, you would probably know that felony murder applies to unborn children in some jurisdictions, and several states actually have explicit provisions regarding the legal status of the unborn child if its mother is murdered. See it turns out that the United States of America is not a monarchy, and each state makes its own laws and regulations. Get this: Sometimes those laws and regulations are even *different* depending on which state you live in! People with IQs over 65 have been dealing with these issues for about 5,000 years, and we've pretty well resolved what to do with dead people and the people who kill them. It's been kind of a big deal just for business reasons alone.
Having a discussion about the balance of rights between a fetus and a woman without recognizing that the woman starts the discussion at a disadvantage relative to the majority male legislatures and judiciary would be irresponsible. By example, women couldn't get credit without their husband's permission prior to the 1970s and their husbands could legally rape them. The last state to outlaw marital rape was in 1993.
This is what's called a "non-sequitur", shreek. You would have learned about that in high school if you had attended. A "non-sequitur" is where a conclusion does not follow from its premise. To be fair, this is more like begging the question since you made an assertion without any evidence or an argument, but stay with me. First of all, there has never been a time in this country when a woman was able to obtain credit only with the permission of her husband. Never. Not once. Not anywhere. Not at any time. Because women were typically not in the work force prior to the 1960s, banks generally did not give them loans or credit because they generally had no income and it was considered a "bad risk" to lend money to a woman who would not be employed to pay it off. This was a market practice based on creditworthiness, not a law passed by the patriarchal legislature to deny wamen their obamamoney you paint chip eating pants on head abject fucking retard. With those facts having been stated and gotten out of the way, your fictitious woman's imagined inability to obtain financial credit in the 1970s would not be an example of a woman being at a disadvantage when merely having a discussion about fetal rights, because those two things do not have anything to do with one another. If women didn't need you voting for them and getting credit for them, I'm certain they don't need you to infantilize them by suggesting they are too stupid and powerless to make cogent arguments before legislative bodies. On the other hand, how do you square your support for those marital rape laws with your apoplectic histrionic pearl clutching about sex police? Should the sex police only show up after the lad's put a ring on her finger? Should the sex police observe all acts of coitus to make sure they are consensual? Surely, if Arkansas banning abortions after 15 weeks is the slippery slope that will lead to a law enforcement surveillance drone in every American woman's uterus; and surely, if Texas banning sodomy (defined in law typically as oral *and/or* anal penetration, regardless of the sex and/or gender of the participants) was the slippery slope that led to the mass extermination of gay men in those dark days of... 2004; and if Florida telling pre-K teachers that they cannot discuss anal masturbation with their students was the slippery slope that led to the reenactment of the Comstock laws; then surely, SURELY, laws regarding how married people are allowed to have sex are just as certainly and just as seriously an infringement on the right to marital and personal privacy, no? That's leaving aside, of course, that yet again, it was never legal to rape one's wife anymore than it was ever legal to rape anyone. There was a time when social convention made it difficult to put on a convincing prosecution of a married man for the rape of his spouse because of social conventions about sex, so he simply wouldn't be charged. By 1993 when the last of the 100% superfluous, redundant "marital rape" laws was passed, that was certainly not the case. No new legislation needed to be created. Rape was already illegal in all 50 states. Kinda like the lynching law we just passed a few months ago despite every act involved with a lynching already being illegal. If you're going to pick little cherries out of your flaming homosexual pedophile asshole, you had better clean them up a little bit better than this before you put them on display you absolute fucking moron.
It's really nothing but talking in circles to avoid saying what abortion really is:
Killing an individual in order to avoid personal hardship, distress, or inconvenience.
If their position is that it's acceptable to kill an individual to avoid personal hardship, distress, or inconvenience, they should be ready to defend that position on its merits instead of trying to justify it with these types of contortions.
But the position is indefensible. If you have to create euphemisms for your actions in order to justify them to yourself or others, then you know your actions are fundamentally wrong.
Bad analogy. Ante-bellum Democrats never denied that blacks were human beings. They just denied that being a human being necessarily was linked with the right not to be enslaved. (If Virginia didn't hold Nat Turner to be a human being, they wouldn't have bothered putting him on trial for "conspiring to rebel and making insurrection" (just like the 1/6 Republicans!), but would have simply killed him like a rabid dog.)
Every person is unique and every person ought to be assumed to be the best judge of how best to live their own life.
Please don't make me pull in all of your comments referring to "the elites" such as how parents should defer their child's education to teachers... This is not what you believe as you often attack others who disagree with government experts. From education to health such as with covid. This is not what you actually believe based on your actions at this very site. You attack federalist principles constantly, advocating for centralized planning. You advocate for globalist rules for fuck's sake. You don't actually believe in individuality based on what you support politically. I mean you were just ranting against people having the right to self defense in the 2a threads! You ranted against people for not getting covid vaccines. You dismissed every single fucking doctors that you disagreed with or explained errors in the government's covid narratives. You supported forced quarantines in Australia as not a big deal. You have never believed what you just wrote here.
Jesse, your only role here is to antagonize me and seek attention trolling me. It literally does not matter what I say, you will object to whatever it is, making up lies if necessary, in order to continue the trolling and the attention-whoring.
I am having rational discussions with all sorts of people in this thread. You continue with your tired schtick of personal attacks, making the topic one of personality instead of issues, and general asshole behavior.
Seriously Jesse, fuck off. You are not wanted here.
I mean you were just ranting against people having the right to self defense in the 2a threads!
This is a lie. I did not rant against anyone having the right to self defense in the 2A discussions. You know it is a lie but you don't care. Your object here is to troll and make up shit about me to project your caricature onto me.
Fuck off and let adults have responsible conversations.
FDR just politely asked all of those stupid yellow swine to go camp out at the Los Angeles Fair Grounds for a couple of years. Jeez gosh, don't you know the difference between offering advice and coercion?
It's not quite accurate to claim that the opinion in Roe "used Buck v. Bell as its basis." The opinion quoted Buck approvingly (along with Jacobson v. Massachusetts), but to support the proposition that there were limits on the right of privacy--IOW, your right to privacy allows you to get an abortion, but doesn't protect you against mandatory sterilization or vaccination. (How would Blackmun determine where the right to privacy applies and where it doesn't? Good question. Probably on the basis of how the Wise Men (and, later, Women) on the Court feel about the action in question: abortion, good; anti-mandatory-sterilization bad.)
This is a recipe not for limited government but for one that must, in the name of protecting life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, surveil and track all acts of potential procreation.
No need to read any further, of course it is untrue that this must happen. Nick is stupidly playing the game of defining your opposition into the most extreme possibility in order to more easily attack it. Standard hysteria. It's a shame to see libertarians adopt the left's tactics they criticize whenever they are used against themselves. But any port in a storm, right?
Based on history, these sorts of morality laws tend to be enforced unequally and usually against some disfavored minority. Surveillance won't be universal; it will be selective.
Any bets on when the first private organization will turn on an AI that harvests data from various marketing firms (Google, Facebook, Apple, etc) in an attempt to identify patters that indicate likelihood of being pregnant and considering an abortion?
Imagine the haul they could get in states like Texas that have a $10K bounty for each woman you find and caregiver/assistant you sue.
Any bets on when the first private organization will turn on an AI that harvests data from various marketing firms (Google, Facebook, Apple, etc) in an attempt to identify patters that indicate likelihood of being pregnant and considering an abortion?
I'll happily put the over/under at the heat death of the universe, and you can pussy out like a faggot and never pay up just like you did the last time you spectacularly lost a bet, shreek.
Maybe we should wait until the 200 or so crisis pregnancy centers that have been burned to the ground, bombed, vandalized and looted by unhinged psychopaths like yourself have at least gotten their insurance check before we start weeping too deeply for the poor benighted black women in whose name it is your duty to be perpetually offended.
It's rare for people on different sides of the abortion debate to acknowledge the other side has a point, but such honesty would be welcome, especially now.
I do love that Nick adds this, as if he's the reasonable person asking seeking compromise after creating his idiotic strawman attack.
MoveOn/ActBlue 101. They've been doing the same shit for 30 fucking years now. 30 years.
"I'm not saying everyone who disagrees with me is a racist he-man woman hater Christian fundamentalist insurrectionist militiaman who wants to see every woman on earth chained to the kitchen sink with 45 babies suckling from her worn out teats, I'm just saying everyone on society would get along a lot better if someone would just rid me of this turbulent priest!"
Firstly: Drug testing welfare moochers *is* limited government. No one has a right to largesse from the State. Every conceivable program to limit the number of people, (and corporations) who receive unearned money from the State is a first order moral good.
Secondly: A tune to liven up your evening.
Roe Roe Roe your boats,
Gently down the hill,
Now you'll have to keep the kid,
Should've took the pill.
I guess you guys aren't ready for that, but your kids will love it.
Hey remember before sarcasmic lost that last few brain cells and used to compulsively reply in every thread regardless of whether it was even tangentially related to the topic or not his catchphrase "Not giving is taking, and not taking is giving"? It was times like these when it would have been appropriate.
Not giving you a monthly stipend to sit on your obese lard ass eating Cheetos and downing 4 gallons of Mountain Dew every night while you troll 12 year old kids on Xbox Live isn't not having the heavy hand of government shoved down your throat, fat fuck.
On the other hand, rounding people up in actual concentration camps because they have the sniffles, sending police to disable their vehicles while they attempt to attend religious services, having armed guards at every hospital entrance to make sure no one sneaks past the security and visits their dying loved one in hospice, and making their employment conditional upon receiving an experimental drug... THAT was the heavy hand of government being shoved down people's throats. Remember that important distinction you drew about "offering advice" and "coercion"? Telling you to hit the treadmill and not be a fat fucking piece of shit loser filling his fat fucking triple chin with taxpayer-bought jelly donuts is offering advice. Tearing 6 month old children (are they children after 6 months out of the MagicVag™ or still clumps of cells?) out of the arms of their parents, tying them to their seats, and diverting a flight with hundreds of other people on it because the 6 month old kid couldn't tolerate being partially asphyxiated by a cloth smothering their face is coercion. See how easy?
Journalist Jonathan M. Katz appears to call for deadly violence by invoking Haiti after #RoeVWade was overturned by the US Supreme Court.
Abortion is illegal in all of Haiti.
Rachel Bean, of Minneapolis, is using her Twitter account to express support for violence and arson.
"Do not be peaceful!"
A Minnesota far-left account urges violence over #RoevWade.
"Violence is the only language they understand, & it’s time we start speaking it." Far-left YouTuber Carlos Maza, who comes from a family with a multi-million dollar mansion & yacht empire, calls for violence over #RoevWade.
Many accounts on Twitter are urging for the assassination of black Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas because of #RoevWade.
.@heraldscotland's writer at large Neil Mackay, of Glasgow, says he would carry out a terrorist arson attack on the U.S. if he was a woman there.
"Burn down the Supreme Court"
Andrew Tarantola, a senior reporter for @Engadget, calls for a terrorist attack on the U.S. Supreme Court.
"...burn the motherf—ker down"
Author Lauren Hough expresses support for those who carry out arson attacks.
Writer Brandon Taylor urges arson attacks.
Jonathan Lovitz, senior vice president of the @NGLCC and a diversity & inclusion advocate, calls for arson attacks on conservative LGBT group @LogCabinGOP.
Author Lauren Hough again urges violence and says others should fear "us." Terrorists & terrorist groups believe in using fear and violence (or the threat of violence) to intimidate civilian populations into giving into demands.
The current temperature in Seattle is sunny skies and 75 degrees, yet the group of Antifa have umbrellas. They must be preparing for rain...or something else.
HAPPENING NOW: A crowd of thousands of pro-abortion activists that were protesting at a different location have joined the group at the federal building.
They started chanting, “Abolish the court.”
There is minimal @SeattlePD presence at the protest despite the nationwide calls for violence—staffing levels can’t keep up.
An unhinged protester tried to deploy pepper spray on two peaceful pro-life protesters but the deployment failed.
I asked this Antifa militant why he was wearing a gas mask and he couldn’t give me an answer.
VIOLENCE INCREASING: Antifa militants attempt to shatter windows but security prevented them and they ran back into the crowd.
I’m keeping my distance for safety reasons.
BREAKING: Seattle Antifa attack pro-life female, tackle her to the ground and pepper spray her. #RoeVsWade
The fact that the black population has been stagnant for a century because of the successful efforts of eugenicists like Margaret Sanger to make sure that 40% of all abortions in this country result in the death of a black baby is a celebration of black bodies in a way, I guess. Just like any funeral.
The only attack on 'black bodies' (good grief, could you come up with any more of a dehumanizing term for black people? WTH?) has been the last 50 years or so during which the abortion clinics have killed more black 'bodies' than were alive in the US at the time of the passage of Roe. If Roe had not been passed, the number of 'black bodies' living today would be a much larger number and larger percentage of the population.
Hey cytotoxic (dba chemjeff, de oppresso liber), would the police be justified in blowing away these people for trespassing? Just want to make sure I keep track.
Two journalists on the ground confirm the protesters were pounding on the windows. Lawmaker Wendy Rogers says the mob was threatening to break them. #Insurrection
Listen, we had the only kind of privacy that matters. The privacy to hire a physician to rip apart a fetus with forceps, ensuring the integrity of the brain, lungs, kidneys, and livers for sale on the research market, and then scrape it out piece by piece from the battered remains of a woman's uterus. Sure, the federal government has been spying 24/7 in real time on literally every form of communication of all 320 million people who live in the United States for 20 years, and sure, the cops can track you without a warrant, and sure, the cops can jail you without trial for 2 years for misdemeanor trespassing, and sure, the cops can steal all of your cash if you go traveling around with it or do something even more foolish like try to put it into a bank, and sure, the cops can send a SWAT team to your home in fucking Alaska to execute a no-knock warrant to search for Nancy Pelosi's laptop because you bear a vague resemblance to a woman in a blurry still frame from surveillance footage at the US capitol weeks earlier, and sure, the federal government is trying to pass legislation to make encryption illegal, and sure, the entire US intelligence apparatus spent 6 years colluding with the DNC to use a fake oppo dossier to spy on dozens of private citizens, including candidate, president-elect, president, and former-president Trump, and sure, 100% private companies who out of the pure beneficence in their hearts allow us to use the digital equivalent of their living room to exchange ideas can and do arbitrarily and capriciously enforce or not enforce their rules and terms of service to stifle the political speech of people they don't like, and sure, you have to show your photo ID and be entered into a state database to fill any prescription at a licensed pharmacy or even to buy over the counter cold medicine. But don't you understand what is at stake here?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!? Stupid women when they get knocked up by stupid men because they were collectively too stupid to master the art of swallowing a pill or unrolling a latex tube might, possibly, depending on how the legislation and further court challenges shake out over the next decade or so, have to travel to a different state if they somehow didn't realize they were pregnant until 8 months after the fact!!!!!!!!!!!!! IF YOU DON'T CLUTCH THOSE PEARLS I WILL CLUTCH THEM FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FedGof have NO authority tomeddle in people's private affairs, That is a MORAL issue not a criminal issue.
There are exceptions for things like sexually abusing children, and should be. But"sex police"? Not right. WHERE do fedGov think they uncover THAT issue, in some umbrae and penumbrae buried somewhere in the basement of the SCOTUS building?
Now if one party is forcing themselves upon the other, that is assault, and needs to be prosecuted as such. Just as if one beat the other with a baseball bat. Actioinable. But that goes whether both are male, both are female, or each is one of the other.
Oh, irony. Abortion fans, who skew strongly left, might be worried about intrusive government? But only regarding pregnancy, and not the thousands of other issues they eagerly demand government to intrude on?
The old bumper sticker is still largely true.
Republicans: regulate nothing except abortion.
Democrats: regulate everything except abortion.
He said the political realignment would mean that social conservatives would no longer have to work with fiscal conservatives in politics, resulting in a more populist, conservative Republican Party — which is also the lane of the Republican Party he currently occupies.
So he is thrilled that he is no longer going to have to work with those icky fiscal conservatives.
I'M MOST CERTAINLY NOT RETARDED! IN FACT, I'M A VERY STABLE, AND A VERY GOOD-LOOKING, GENIUS (I KNOW A LOT OF BIG WORDS, YOU KNOW), AS IS MY COMMIE BOYFRIEND VLAD. ALTHOUGH I STILL DO HAVE A SLIGHT EDGE OVER HIM. NO ONE IS, OR EVER WILL BE, AS GREAT AS I AM!
Was there an attempt at ubiquitious surveillance then? No?
This sounds exactly like the people screaming about Net Neutrality - screaming about all the bad things that would happen if ISP's weren't forbidden from prioritizing traffic. Thing was, the ISP's *weren't forbidden from prioritizing traffic* and they weren't doing those horrible things.
About the sort of dreck I expected to see from the Faux Libertarians at Reason. Not even a peep about protecting the basic right of life and right to not be aggressed against for the baby in the womb. Instead firm support for the woman and the doctor violating the NAP. So glad that Mises is taking over the party and kicking you fakes out.
Imagine a libertarian being upset that we've gone back to 1973 and allowed states to make their own laws. But of course, you don't know what libertarianism actually is. You just want woke liberalism with some conservative economics.
So, Libertarians primarily believe in states rights? Who knew. Then you must think slavery should have been up to the stars and now must be pissed that the court threw out NYs 100 year old law on guns the other day.
This is a false analogy. There is a constitutional principle at stake with slavery: are all human beings created equal, endowed by the Creator with some inalienable rights among which are the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness? If they are, as the Declaration states, then slavery cannot be tolerated. And yes, I am aware of the 3/5 compromise which was morally repugnant and plain wrong, just like the Dredd Scott vs Sanford decision, which was struck down the right way: by adopting 13th and 14th amendments. Today's SCOTUS decision can also be struck down by enacting a constitutional amendment granting the right to abortion to every birthing person or, even broader, to every menstruating person. Roe vs Wade was legislating from the bench. Roe vs. Wade invented the right to abortion which doesn't exist in the constitution. The right way to enact that right is to amend the constitution, not to have 9 unelected people in black robes invent the right by fiat. And, as constitution says, every right not enumerated in the constitution is reserved for the states or the people. But not the federal government.
"And, as constitution says, every right not enumerated in the constitution is reserved for the states or the people. But not the federal government."
Women are people Groucho, or at least have been in modern times if not in 1868 which is what the court tried to set the clock back to. Human zygotes and fetuses before quickening are not people.
And yes, I am aware of the 3/5 compromise which was morally repugnant and plain wrong.
I hope you realize that it was the slave states who wanted to count slaves as full people, because that gave them more political power. The anti-slavery position was not to count slaves as part of the population at all.
Life begins at the moment of conception? Why wait so long? I believe that every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great, if a sperm is wasted God gets quite irate. Life imitates Monty Python.
FIRST OFF, MY FELLOW CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN CULTISTS HERE, THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR HIJACKING THE LABEL OF "LIBERTARIANISM" AND REASON'S COMMENTS SECTIONS, THUS MAKING LIBERTARIANISM SYNONYMOUS WITH CONSERVATISM AND REPUBLICANISM! YOU PEOPLE TRULY WARM THE COCKLES OF MY DISEASED FATTY HEART. NOW, AS FOR THIS RECENT ROE VERSUS WADE DECISION WHICH I OBVIOUSLY HELPED TO FACILITATE, THERE IS A NEGATIVE SIDE, AND THERE IS A POSITIVE SIDE. ON THE FORMER, MORE NON-PURE WHITE MINORITIES AND LIBTARDS (OF ALL STRIPES) WILL BE BORN; NOT GOOD AT ALL. HOWEVER, ON THE LATTER, OUR PURE WHITE RACE WILL ALSO BE PRESERVED. YAY! OH, AND DON'T FORGET TO MAGA (BY DONATING MONEY TO ME), AND GRAB THEM BY THE PUSSY; WOMEN LOVE THAT KIND OF STUFF!
Where will the freedom of states to prohibit abortion lead? Almost certainly to more and more draconian restrictions on abortion and, eventually, long-settled issues of contraception, sexual privacy, and the rights of gays and lesbians to sleep together and get married
So effing what? These are all state issues, leave them to the states. Not every state in the union (or country in the world) needs to conform to your or my personal preferences.
I'm a gay, married man. I really couldn't care less if a bunch of US states outlaw gay marriage or gay sex. If they have majorities for that, I wouldn't want to live there anyway.
A libertarian is going to let the government decide when life begins? WTF? Using your logic, we could say that the crime of murder doesn't start until the victim is 18. Or 21. Or 14. Or whatever. Teenage brains are still soft and developing, right? If a zygote isn't living, what exactly is it doing? Do women have suspended animation chambers in their uteruses? You can only make abortion a "right" by denying that it's murder. Or, again using your logic, murder is unenumerated in the Constitution, so it must be a right. Once again 'reason' demonstrates that it's a disgusting front for the worst kind of libterdism.
I could give a darn about abortion rights.
What really pisses me off is the terrible abortion arguments. For example Nick's latest above. Slippery sloping and it's not even ski season.
"OMG, the SC overturned a bad ruling and allowed states to regulate abortion via representative legislature or popular vote and now they are going to set up cameras in our bedrooms to see if we are having anal sex"
Sure Nick...you're sounding like AOC.
You need a doctor's consultation to get an abortion pill. It's not OTC.
Plan B is not the same thing. That's a next day thing if something went wrong (busted condom or you were drunk and stupid). But it is not if, say, you're on depo and don't find out you've gotten pregenant anyway for a month or two.
Not arguing merits of the case or abortion, just clarifying.
And, I might also say that you're unusually sanguine about the notion of government not invading your privacy. Top to bottom, governments are littered with people who want more info, and have zero regard for your privacy, or the law, or the constitution. Remember when James Comey was saying "Americans have no right to privacy?" That fucker is emblematic of everyone who thinks they know better than you, and doesn't give a shit if they violate your rights, people at all level of governance.
Sans very well known court protection there are a lot of people who definitely think they know better, so it is possible they might try to snoop on private matters. See the medical records laws on Obamacare, or banking regulations -- Biden was very seriously pushing to look at every transaction after $600 in everyone's bank account -- and the reporting standard from 50 years ago isn't indexed so instead of reporting what would be the equivalent of $75K in adjusted dollars, they still report transactions at $10K, constantly narcing on small business ownersand people who have done nothing wrong.
The argument in the above article is stupid, and pure conjecture. But the government does do ridiculous, invasive, and unconstitutional shit all the time. "Secure in their person, houses, papers, and effects" -- what's more personal than someone's financial or medical records? Most of these people don't care.
But the government does do ridiculous, invasive, and unconstitutional shit all the time.
But this decision has nothing to do with the government's invasiveness. This isn't permitting the government to suddenly violate the fourth amendment and do random searches for signs of aborted pregnancies. To the extent that government snooping is a big problem, it's a big problem completely independent of this ruling.
Hey, responsibility is oppression, and must in some way be sexist. And speaking of sex, any laws or denial of resources that might make people refrain from sex must be totally christian-fascist, right?
I suspect that many women who seek abortions were living lives in chaos that contributed to the unwanted pregnancy happening, and subsequent mental illness is more likely the result of their dissolute lives than the abortion itself.
Who's responsibility?????????? You think it's YOUR responsibility to dictate that Pregnant Woman..... Seems to me if you wanted to make a person accept responsibility for their actions; you wouldn't have to do anything but LEAVE their situation alone...
So we can finally put this Power-Mad growth to rest by just supporting Fetal Ejection?
Because I'm just about sick and tired of EXCUSES after EXCUSES after EXCUSES to shove more Gov-Gun dictation on "the people"... Especially when it is absolutely and UN-deniably NONE OF THEIR F'EN BUSINESS.... It's PERSONAL.
Do I have a right to a Plan B for near-fatal car crashes that leave me crippled for the rest of my life?
If modern medical science invented one... Limb regrowth, fundamental body-parts regrowth... Would micro-managing Nosenheimers and Buttinskies have laws passed to DENY me these treatments? Because they have HUGE punishment boners, perhaps? Or, what? They have divined The Mind of God, and God says that modern toothpaste and toothbrushes are An Abomination Unto Him? You eat sweets? SUFFER those rotten teeth, ye of poor self-control, and do NOT cheat, using those against-the-Will-of-God, profane toothpastes and toothbrushes!!!
I (as Duly Appointed Little Helper of God Almighty, AND of Government Almighty) HAVE SPOKEN!!! Obey ye NOW, peons!
Fucking authoritarians do NOT know the meaning of "keep your punishment-boner dick in your pants, and mind your own business"!
I don't give a shit about any of that. And I said so.
Plan B is NOT an abortion pill. Different things for different use cases. Period. Birth control is not abortion. Again, period. I'm just pointing out a minor fallacy in your argument, because the original point of this article's take being such a stupid take on this court decision is pretty much a forgone conclusion.
I'm not going to get into a discussion of personal responsibility, contraception, or anything else. Don't care. I don't have a dog in this fight.
Goes back to dizzle's dismissive attitude regarding freedomrider's comments.
It's a dumb fucking article, probably the stupidest take on the whole thing from reason. Which is saying something. But I'm not going to be dismissive of an obvious fact of government overreach, just mention that in this case it's really a fucking stupid take on the whole thing.
Yeah, because 99% of the time a pregnancy produces a baby that exactly matches the genetic profile of the embryo, and the climate predictions so far are hitting maybe 10% of the time (and are cloaked in uncertainty and special pleading). But otherwise exactly the same.
I dunno. On 1/6, the score was; firearms 1, fire extinguishers 1. (The later reports that Office Sicknick died of natural causes were obvious Russian disinformation.)
Is it storytime already? Can the sex police be extraterrestrial aliens? It would be more interesting.
How about a story where you write and pass laws to govern a country instead of courts making shit up and then piling even more shit on top of the old shit every ten years or so?
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Maybe people will police themselves now instead of murdering the consequences of their irresponsibility.
This! ^^^ Fucking yes this!
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Are they sexy aliens? Kinda sounds like a 90’s Skinemax movie.
They are hired by Dems to make sure sex is equitable and environmentally sustainable.
The Dems had to hire space aliens because the sex police need to travel and no one using Earth-based transportation can afford fuel.
I think NICK GILLESPIE, may be an undercover sex law enforcement agent. Or... maybe he just lost the point of the ruling, to prevent legislation and activism from the court. Or maybe NICK GILLESPIE is a sexual deviant, who is really upset that he can't get his illegitimate children aborted/killed in his state of residence now?
Certainly this ruling doesn't mean there will be sex police, so it MUST be story time, or something else is afoot???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preet_Bharara#Dismissal
On March 10, 2017, U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions ordered all 46 remaining United States Attorneys who were holdovers from the Obama administration, including Bharara, to submit letters of resignation.[122] Bharara declined to resign and was fired the next day.[123][124]
Preety Boy BhararahahahahaHOOO-ha was entirely TOO chummy with Emperor Obama, so the TrumptatorShit DITCHED Preety Boy BhararahahahahaHOOO-ha, for NOT being TOTALLY mind-enslaved to Der TrumpfenFuhrer! So now, Preety Boy BhararahahahahaHOOO-ha wants sweet REVENGE up the human race, which (seemingly) has despised Him SOOOOO much! Therefor, Preety Boy BhararahahahahaHOOO-ha will chuckle gleefully, after He and His Fellow womb-controlled-women-enslavers will gather enough "binders full of women" whose wombs have been slave-binded to be baby-making machines against their wills! By Preety Boy BhararahahahahaHOOO-ha and fellow Lying Lotharios!
To learn about Lying Lotharios and their nefarious sociobiological scheme for turning male humans into harem-fighting and harem-lying beasts, see http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/#_Toc105750001
Because government never expands their laws to ridiculous portions like no fly lists sex offender registrations, check points...here in reality that is what government does. What does it do in your fantasy land?
Letting dictators in judge robes write laws isn’t better than government by the people.
Learn to get along with people in society or go find a suitable society for yourself. Judge-written laws that society hates aren’t the answer.
Individual Liberty is better than any Government by [WE] mobs of people....
And you just threw that in the garbage.....
The manipulation that you sell isn't fooling anyone but yourself.
Sqrlsy2000 is really fucking annoying.
Creepy how it's obsessed with shitting up abortion threads.
It should be aborted.
What law did they write?
Abortion protections, for starters.
Each time I read a stupid headline on the abortion decision and think, "well that's the most stupid and ignorant headline statement I'll see all day", someone goes and proves me wrong. This article about tops them all. And, this is a site supposedly produced and edited by reason'd people. And, I'm talking about even beating out AOC, Pelosi, Jennifer Rubin, and even ole "10% Guy" Biden. This is supposed to be a site where you can read somewhat intelligent opinions on the happenings of the day, especially in legal matters.
Believe it or not, no matter how much you thrust it in our faces, conservatives are really not interested in what you do in your bedroom. We would prefer you keep it to yourself.
The decision today was based upon the fact that abortion is not a federal right. The matter can be returned to the States for legislation as it should have remained and was before the Roe v Wade case. No one is going to be policing your sexual activities unless you keep going after children for your sexual gratification.
Also, quit using abortion as your birth control method. It is cruel to keep killing your children. One day you will probably wish you had allowed a couple of them to live. Use readily available birth control methods to stop becoming pregnant, or keep your baby-making parts in your pants.
Hey, Cindy, didn't I see you at the abortion clinic the other day with a cute little sign that looks like one of your kids illustrated? I waved but you didn't wave back. Just checking to see if you saw me, too?
Nothing brings the fucktards out of the woodwork like murdering babies.
what "babies"???
FREE those babies - slavers.
"The decision today was based upon the fact that abortion is not a federal right."
Because Government 'Grant' Individual Rights by legislation??? Instead of having a Supreme Court that uphold a "People's" law over the federal (+State after Civil War) legislative government...
Holy crap; people are so utterly confused about simple USA government it's stunning. Legislative Government doesn't 'Grant' inherent rights. "The People's" SUPREME Law ***OVER*** Legislative government PROTECTS inherent human rights from Gov-Guns trampling them.
"Because Government 'Grant' Individual Rights by legislation??? "
*Sigh*
Things can be LEGAL and not a RIGHT. All legal things are not rights.
This ^^^.
This is not the problem: "If life begins at conception, there are virtually no limits on government surveillance of women in a post-Roe world."
NICK GILLESPIE must have been bored and wanted to troll us.
The problem was, the courts were making shit up out of thin air. In the late 1860s, there were few abortion laws, because culturally abortion was abhorrent, and few were performed. By 1900, every single state had anti-abortion law on the books. Before abortion was a "common law offence" before there were any statutes against it. A court full of activists in 1973, had to use the 14th amendment's equal protection clause from 1868, yes 1868, to ramrod baby killing protections. Excuse me, but in 1868, when they wrote that clause, it's intention was most definitely NOT to protect baby killing.
So you conclusion is... The Supreme Court made up Individual Liberty out of thin-air because it took an implied Right that people OWN themselves to get to a right to privacy????? Cause let me tell you there is NO spelled out T right to privacy in the Constitution but the summation of intent obviously there by many provision of it....
And what exactly is a 'right to privacy'????? Perhaps it's keeping [WE] mob of Gov-Gun packing dictators out of PERSONAL affairs and minding their OWN F'En business that doesn't concern them... Ya know; like people's pregnancies...
Bwah, ha ha HA HA!
Gillespie puts in his entry for the most absurd take.
Do laws against murder and robbery require intrusive surveillance of every human interaction creating an authoritarian dystopia?
The writers here have lost their minds.
If one takes the pro-life position literally, then abortion is equivalent to literal murder. And because in general we regard murder as a very serious crime, we expect instances of suspected murder, or attempted murder, to be vigorously investigated.
So for example if a person winds up missing, we expect the police to investigate for possible foul play.
Now let's consider the case of a woman who shows up to work visibly pregnant on Friday, but on Monday, not so much. By the pro-life logic, the case of that "missing person" should be investigated by the police for possible foul play, should it not?
Yes.
And I think that is Nick's point.
But fortunately (I suppose), the pro-life position as stated above should not be taken literally, we know this because in general they don't want women to face any legal penalties for pursuing an abortion. Which makes no sense if one believes that abortion is literal murder.
It is really more about enforcing their conception of 'personal responsibility'.
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“And I think that is Nick's point“
The implication that you and Nick seem to be making is that since you do not like the (imagined in your heads) consequences of considering a fetus a life, it must therefore not be a life.
It is a strange logic.
PROVE IT --- Fetal Ejection...
Pro-Lifers only make this hard cause *reality* would rub their 'unicorn' theories in the dirt.
Fetal ejection doesn't prove that the fetus was not alive. What the fuck are you talking about?
My finger is alive... You want to dictate me because I have fingers too?
If you can't establish an Individual you're just perching your dictative authority on someone else's body cells. ( imagined unicorns in your imaginative head )
Muting sqrlsy2000 makes these threads much more readable
Nadless Nardless the Nasty NAZI mutes its already-muzzled so-called "conscience" ass well! More news at 11:00!
WAY more readable.
It’s the same logic all Progtards use on every issue, especilally energy policy
“It is really more about enforcing their conception of 'personal responsibility”
Once again here is Chemjeff to tell us what conservatives really think.
For the record, I think that it is wrong when Kim Jun Fucknut kills his people. Or when Putin invades Ukraine and poisons his dissenters. That is literal murder.
But based on Chemjeff logic if I don’t demand all it takes to bring those murderers to justice I must actually be thinking something about personal responsibility. Or something.
Maybe if you spent a little more time arguing in good faith instead of putting thoughts in imaginary minds your arguments would be a little more cogent.
*Based on my observations*, I think the pro-life position is motivated more about enforcing personal responsibility, than it is about declaring abortion to be literal murder. That is since, as I have described, there is an inherent contradiction between the two claims that (1) abortion is literal murder, but (2) women who seek abortion should not be prosecuted for any crime at all.
But based on Chemjeff logic if I don’t demand all it takes to bring those murderers to justice I must actually be thinking something about personal responsibility.
No, Overt, different situations demand different analyses.
I mean we've only been talking about this in threads for weeks at this point. And those you call conservatives have made it pretty clear their considerations are about balance of rights between the child and mother.
That is their public statements for the most part. It is the public statements of many libertarians.
But you do you.
their considerations are about balance of rights between the child and mother
And that "balance" is 100% for blastocysts and 0% for the mother, whose right to self-ownership is in abeyance until full-term birth occurs.
The issue there is that the "blastocyst" (aka unborn child, living being, fetus, person, etc) wasn't uninvited, but arrived as the known result of voluntary action on the part of the person who now wishes to exterminate the "blastocyst".
I'm compelled by the argument that government doesn't have jurisdiction because the "blastocyst" exists entirely within the woman's body. So the woman who exterminates the "blastocyst" while it within her, before its been born and reached government jurisdiction, should face no legal punishment. But a doctor who performs an abortion on others is certainly within government jurisdiction, thus should face the same legal penalty a hitman hired to kill any adult would.
^^This
Funny how liberals are all for sanctuaries for illegal aliens until one shows up in their tummy.
"And that "balance" is 100% for blastocysts and 0% for the mother, whose right to self-ownership is in abeyance until full-term birth occurs."
Yup. It's why we demand executions of mothers for aborting ectopic pregnancies.
“*Based on my observations*, I think the pro-life position is motivated more about enforcing personal responsibility, than it is about declaring abortion to be literal murder.”
Well based on my personal observations you lack the ability to read minds. And your only stated evidence that I don’t mean what I say is my motivation is the tortured logic above. So what you are saying is that not only do I not believe a fetus is alive; not only do I not believe the statement above that I can reconcile that view with not creating a police state; but also that I am lying about that and actually care about personal responsibility not human life. Me and the Catholic Church and nearly half of the country.
It is my general observation that you find conservatives stupid and icky and will always impute the worst motivations no matter what they say.
It is my general observation that you are so wrapped up in defending liberals because they intend well while making up intentions so you can attack conservatives that you will forever miss the opportunity to actually affect change in this country.
You and I could be talking about the reasonable limits that ought to be put on a government so that it can try to prevent murder without turning the country into a police state. We could be doing that but my general observation is that actual rational discussion is the last thing you want when you can instead vilify people who don’t agree with you.
Whatever man. You do understand that Team Red gets treated with kid gloves around here, right? Just today I was told that when Trump supporters were chanting HANG MIKE PENCE, *while committing acts of violence breaking into the Capitol*, that they should not be taken seriously. It was just playful rhetoric, you see! But, when Chuck Schumer says that Kavanaugh will "reap the whirlwind"? Now, THAT'S a literal VIOLENT THREAT AGAINST HIS LIFE. You cannot have possibly failed to notice the double standard around here?
Democrats are evil and should be regarded in the worst possible light.
Republicans are just misunderstood and should be regarded in the best possible light.
So most of the time, when I am accused of "defending Democrats", what I'm actually doing is calling out this double standard. Hey, maybe if Republicans should be given the benefit of the doubt, why not Democrats? Hmm? But OH NO that is intolerable. Democrats are RACIST FASCIST COMMUNIST SOCIALIST TOTALITARIAN NAZIS who want to blow up the planet! Republicans - well, they have a few authoritarian tendencies, but can't you overlook that for the sake of stopping Democrats? Pretty please?
And yes there are a few issues when Democrats are just better than Republicans. Immigration, for example.
Furthermore, I absolutely do believe that many Republicans have lost their way. I grew up in a time when Republicans were considered the "adults in the room", the intellectuals who had inspiring new ideas, in contrast to Democrats who only had boring stale ideas from the 1930s. Now, what I see are Republicans who have no new ideas and who offer little more than conspiracy theories, demagoguery and lies. (Oh but don't Democrats demagogue as well? You betcha! But not nearly as bad as Republicans do!) I am embarrassed for what the Republicans have become. I really am.
So no I can't read minds, but I can make observations. And that is what I have seen.
There’s lies, damn lies, and shit Lying Jeffy says.
Lol. Holy fuck. Pure delusions
This is the dishonesty of jeff in a nutshell. He freely accused people of being conservatives for attacking the left. Then cries like a little child when he is called out for attacking the right and defending the left.
"Whatever man...[long diatribe where Chemjeff plays the victim and never once attempts to defend his previous 'general observations]...Whatever man."
Please. You called me and the rest of the pro-lifers disingenuous. You said we actually aren't trying to protect life but instead secretly push some agenda of "personal responsibility". When I called you on it and offered a counter to your reasoning, you change the subject and you play the victim.
You play the victim to absolve you of the need to "make observations" about what I said. You could be internalizing my argument to you and adjusting your world view, but no. Tomorrow, or in two weeks, you'll be back insisting the exact damn thing because- surprise- you only "observe" that which strengthens your world view.
Overt, read what I actually wrote.
*Based on my observations*, I think the pro-life position is motivated more about enforcing personal responsibility, than it is about declaring abortion to be literal murder.
First, they are MY observations. Are you going to deny me the observations that I make?
Second, I am referencing the pro-life *position*, not every single individual.
Third, I claim that it is motivated MORE by matters of personal responsibility, not EXCLUSIVELY so.
And so, you took my statement and dishonestly twisted it into "Chemjeff is accusing every pro-life person of being a dishonest asshole lying about their views of the personhood of the fetus!" Which isn't what I said.
Seems to me, Overt, you deliberately twisted my statement in order to use it as an excuse to launch a personal attack at me. Which seems very Jesse-like of you.
Overt, you need to read the statements of what other pro-lifers say. Go read the comments here from Earth-Based Human Skeptic, Dizzle, Cronut, and others who focus a great deal on the personal responsibility that they view is lacking in women with the existence of legal abortion. I listened to an interview on NPR with the governor of Mississippi who signed this particular bill into law. One of the first things that he said to the interviewer was that he was now hopeful that women would act more responsibly. The language of "personal responsibility" is everywhere in these discussions. I am not saying that these people don't sincerely believe that the fetus is a human life worth saving. I am saying that for MANY PEOPLE, perhaps not you, but for MANY PEOPLE, matters of personal responsibility of the woman are just as, if not more, important than the matter of the life of the fetus. YOU need to read what others are saying and you need to understand that you are not the sole representative of the pro-life movement.
"First, they are MY observations. Are you going to deny me the observations that I make?"
I deny your interpretations of those observations as being the product of a person who is extremely wrong and biased. You have observed that Pro-Lifers are uninterested in throwing mothers in jail for murder. You have interpreted that to mean that we are being disingenuous when we say the purpose of the pro-life movement is to stop the snuffing of life.
"Second, I am referencing the pro-life *position*, not every single individual."
Oh knock it off. You are engaged in a collectivist smear and when I called you on it, your first reaction was to play the victim, and now you want to get into a semantics argument. You are hiding behind silly passive voice nonsense. "The position is motivated more by..." How is it motivated Chemjeff? Does the position have a life of its own? Does it motivate itself?
" the pro-life position as stated above should not be taken literally, we know this because in general **they** don't want women to face any legal penalties for pursuing an abortion." - Chemjeff's first statement [emphasis mine]
Who is "they" Chemjeff? The abstract position? This passive movement that just "is motivated"? Of course not, your argument is that PEOPLE who are pro-life are MORE interested in pushing personal responsibility than stopping murder. And the evidence you provided was ONE observation: that pro-lifers don't want to throw women in jail for abortion.
When I called you on it, you then referenced (but didn't offer specific examples of) "observations" to continue justifying your statement.
And now, the only thing you can serve up is a bunch of name drops, and an allusion to your radio listening. Color me skeptical if I think that you are uncharitably ascribing motivations to people despite what they actually say.
In case you didn't notice, MILLIONS of people are currently running around screaming that women are losing access to abortions. They are demanding to make that the government's problem. Or the problem of Pro-Lifers who object to baby-killing. Do you understand how that might result in people in the pro-life movement talking about personal responsibility?
we are being disingenuous when we say the purpose of the pro-life movement is to stop the snuffing of life.
You are being disingenuous if you say the SINGULAR purpose of the pro-life movement is to stop the snuffing of life. From my observations, it is more than that. It ALSO has a very substantial component of wanting to use the state to enforce a particular type of 'personal responsibility'. It ALSO has a very substantial component of wanting to use the state to enforce a cultural shift, which you yourself allude to. You want the state to declare abortion to be murder, even if it is not prosecuted as murder, if it means a cultural shift of more people thinking that abortion is murder.
Oh knock it off. You are engaged in a collectivist smear and when I called you on it, your first reaction was to play the victim, and now you want to get into a semantics argument.
You know what, Overt? You are not the gatekeeper for the entire pro-life movement and you should stop pretending like you are.
I made a generalization based on my observations. I was very clear in stating that I did not think every single person believed a specific way. You are just upset that not every pro-life person obeys the ideal that exists in your head.
Again read the comments of the people that I mentioned.
I hate to break it to you, but there are pro-life people out there who want to ban abortion for some pretty shitty reasons. Just like there are libertarians out there who support libertarian ideas for some pretty shitty reasons. They don't represent everyone, but they exist. They cannot all be the virtuous saint that you are, Overt.
And now, the only thing you can serve up is a bunch of name drops, and an allusion to your radio listening. Color me skeptical if I think that you are uncharitably ascribing motivations to people despite what they actually say.
https://www.wbur.org/npr/1107531593/former-governor-whose-bill-was-at-the-center-of-roe-ruling-reacts-to-scotus-deci
KELLY: Mississippi, as we mentioned, only has one clinic providing abortions. What do these next days look like in your state?
BRYANT: Well, I think people will start thinking about something called individual responsibility. I think they're going to have to take into consideration that I might not be able to get an abortion on demand. I might not be able to do that just for my convenience. And so I think - I hope and I believe that there will be adults who will be more responsible and not bring about a life that they do not want.
Clear enough for you?
"From my observations, it is more than that."
Because you are making up intentions in peoples heads.
First, let's be clear- You have now retreated from Pro-Lifers being more interested in personal responsibility than actually saving lives to now saying saving lives is not our "SINGULAR" motive. But it is all just parsing of words. It is like you saying, "Overt, you aren't singularly interested in building a house. You also want to pour foundations and hang drywall."
Obviously if this country is going to markedly decrease the killing of innocent life, then it will require a cultural shift. And would-be aborters are going to have to take responsibility for their actions. Those are not ulterior motives. They are pre-requisites.
"You know what, Overt? You are not the gatekeeper for the entire pro-life movement and you should stop pretending like you are."
And yet you have no problem pretending that you can divine the primary intentions of the whole pro-life movement, right? Alternatively, you don't like me pushing back on you, because it interferes with your ability to question the motives of people you don't agree with.
I am summarizing the written and argued positions of pretty much every advocate on this subject since the pro-life movement began. I welcome you to point me to someone who says, "You know what, saving lives is nice, but really this is about getting people to take responsibility for their actions." Of course, you won't find that, so instead you have to fall back to interpreting our actions.
"You are just upset that not every pro-life person obeys the ideal that exists in your head."
This is laughable, Chemjeff. The only specific evidence that you could provide of your charge was that Pro-Life people don't dogmatically insist on throwing women in prison. That's it. I have now had a long running discussion with you about HOW a person can be interested in saving life, and still not want to throw women in jail. And even IF my logic is incorrect, it still is evidence that a person (even mistakenly) can reconcile the primacy of saving lives with the compassion of not prosecuting mothers.
So AT BEST, the evidence that you are using for your conclusion is non-determinant. It is consistent with every written and spoken word (including the interview you provided) that the Pro-Life movement has made. That invalidates your suggestion that it is proof of something different.
"I hate to break it to you, but there are pro-life people out there who want to ban abortion for some pretty shitty reasons....They cannot all be the virtuous saint that you are, Overt."
Then find one, Chemjeff. Please. I can find you people behind the pro-abortion movement who have said a reason we should have abortion is to keep "wrong" populations from multiplying. So you should be able to find me some noteworthy person who said "The reason we should ban abortion is..." something other than preserving human life. Where is the quote? Because the NPR quote isn't him saying that personal responsibility is the reason he is doing this.
And let's note that you have now retreated from saying the pro-life movement is *more* about enforcing personal responsibility to saying some people who are pro-lifers aren't singularly supporting it to save lives. You have retreated into the most ramshackle of bailies.
"Clear enough for you?"
Yup. You have proven my skepticism correct. You originally said "One of the first things he said" was talking about Responsibility. Which, of course, is not true. The entire beginning of that interview, Bryant says, "But when we had the opportunity in 2018 to protect innocent lives starting at 15 weeks, and of course, we then - we passed a more stringent anti-abortion bill after that. But we just believe that it's murder. We believe that it's a tearing apart of the human body in the womb. And so we were very happy, I was, and I know many of us that heard that ruling today."
So, in fact, the first words out of Bryant's mouth were to celebrate the saving of life. And before you say "well, I said it was ONE OF the first things he said", who do you think you are kidding? Your whole thesis (until you backed off of it) was that Pro Lifers were MORE interested in personal responsibility than saving life. This would only be valid evidence if he had been talking about responsibility before saving lives.
Even then, your quote doesn't even prove that "Personal Responsibility" was one of his motives. The interviewer didn't ask "Are there other reasons you've done this?" She asked what happens now that the abortion clinic is closing. He is answering that question, not the made up one in your head.
Interviewer: Overt, now that you've gotten permission to build your house, what are you going to do?
Overt: Well, I'm going to have to start clearing the ground around the build site.
Chemjeff: See? This whole house building thing is more about Overt getting to cut down trees!
you don't like me pushing back on you, because it interferes with your ability to question the motives of people you don't agree with
Pot, meet kettle.
RACIST FASCIST NAZIS?? That's what the Left gratuitously calls Republicans.
We could be doing that but my general observation is that actual rational discussion is the last thing you want when you can instead vilify people who don’t agree with you.
Good thing you never do that!
Just constantly.
Humorously you aren't lobbying to take the "murder" out of the abortion procedure...
You're lobbying for FORCED reproduction...
If only we knew why fetuses sprout when they are not wanted.
They don't; until [WE] mob Gov-Guns show up and coerce them into being sprouted with threats of DEATH and IMPRISONMENT...
I.e. FORCED reproduction.
It's worse than that, actually, because it doesn't matter if the woman was "visibly" pregnant. If its murder to kill an embryo the moment of 'conception' (whenever exactly that is), then you have to stop any murder of a pre-visibility embryo too.
Well how do you know the woman was pregnant? Here comes the demand for full government access to medical records, snooping through the mail for abortifacent pills, and surveilling convenience stores for pregnancy test purchases.
Had a miscarriage? Expect a very intrusive government investigation to prove it was actually a miscarriage and not an abortion. After all, we'd expect an investigation to distinguish between an accidental death and a murder.
I'm envisioning state governments requiring women to apply for Conception Certificates as they must now for Birth Certificates. If the blastocyst is fully a legal person, how can you justify waiting until birth before the state takes official notice of it?
^BINGO................................................................................
*fantasizing
Have they ever done that in the almost 2 and 1/2 centuries of US government? Did I miss that?
"I'm envisioning state governments requiring women to apply for Conception Certificates as they must now for Birth Certificates."
You do not have to apply for birth certificates. They are provided at birth.
What the hell are you going on about?
This is nonsense.
How many intrusive 4th amendment violations do you think occur for murder investigations??
Here is Jesse, not offering an argument in good faith, just yipping away.
No it’s actually a legitimate response dumbass.
I'm replying to your actual argument dummy.
So I will ask again Jeff. How many intrusive 4th amendment violations do you think occur for murder investigations??
"I'm envisioning state governments requiring women to apply for Conception Certificates as they must now for Birth Certificates."
Do you not read your own posts?
Yippie... Next agenda - cavity searches for missing people...
A right to privacy --- Yeah right... We Pro-Life Republicans don't believe in any right to privacy, body ownership, personal affairs --- It's all about those Gov-Guns getting FULL Authority for our self-righteous cause.....
Better said to be the Anti-Choice Republicans.
How many 'murder' investigations are initiated by probable cause of missing 'unborn' people?
Is that like the search for where to live in 'unmade' houses?
This is as retarded as Nick's article.
What do you believe is the "retarded" part?
All of it.
Because why would it be a missing person? Babies do come out eventually, you know.
Oh, so you assumed that the pregnant woman in my story was fully 9+ months pregnant, who gave birth over the weekend. (And then showed up to work on Monday? Really?) What if she was only 5 or so months pregnant? Hmm? She shows up to work on Friday visibly pregnant, and then on Monday, not visibly pregnant. Foul play? Investigation by the police? What do you say?
Or to the bigger point... Police investigating what one did to themselves like it was crime... You need to be checked to see if you emitted sperm over the weekend.
"Oh, so you assumed that the pregnant woman in my story was fully 9+ months pregnant, who gave birth over the weekend. (And then showed up to work on Monday? Really?) What if she was only 5 or so months pregnant? Hmm? She shows up to work on Friday visibly pregnant, and then on Monday, not visibly pregnant. Foul play? Investigation by the police? What do you say?"
Again, do you think police investigate heart attack deaths as homicides?
“By the pro-life logic, the case of that "missing person" should be investigated by the police for possible foul play, should it not?“
Not if the state created to do that investigation is so draconian as to require massive infringement on liberty.
So a possible murder shouldn't be investigated if the investigation would be too intrusive to people's liberties? For a potential murder of a grown person, we would not tolerate such an argument. We would rightfully say "yes, the police should search the house of someone that they reasonably believe to be the suspected murderer (as determined by a duly authorized warrant)". That is why the Fourth Amendment only bans UNREASONABLE searches, not ALL searches. This is the pro-life conundrum. They can't both claim that abortion is literal murder, and then simultaneously claim that it shouldn't be investigated as if it were literal murder.
But fortunately we know that the pro-life position, as enunciated by people like NRLC, is not that abortion is literal murder. So they wouldn't be in favor of intrusive investigations of every pregnant woman who had a miscarriage. And from that point of view, it is a good thing.
Guess I need to put it here too...
How many intrusive 4th amendment violations do you think occur for murder investigations??
I should also ask why you've been defending the warrants and investigations into the GOP party for non criminal investigations around the J6 (well at least you claimed there was no criminal intent in the investigation).
We have actual 4th amendment violations that have actually occurred very recently regarding Project Veritas, J6, and others. Yet you've casually dismissed each case. Yet here you persistently are asking about hyperbolic violations made up by the voices in your head.
Please see my previous comments on this subject.
Your logic taken to its conclusion would require that I morally support the invasion of other countries to stop the murder of “full grown adults”. I do not. Because the state required to enact that would be impossibly immoral in practice.
But it’s your turn. If you really believe we must treat all potential murders the same why aren’t you advocating the invasion of North Korea?
Your logic taken to its conclusion
which ignores borders and issues of jurisdiction? Sure, absolutely!
Fortunately, I do not ignore borders, nor issues of jurisdiction.
The legal system which has jurisdiction over a missing person who is an adult, has the same jurisdiction over a "missing person" that is the result of an abortion.
The same cannot be said of foreign countries.
You ignore jurisdiction all the time when you make arguments in favor of illegal aliens. Don't give us that bullshit.
"which ignores borders and issues of jurisdiction? Sure, absolutely!"
So wait. You are saying that there are reasonable limits we can place on the government that might mean we treat murders differently depending on the circumstances?
Why is "Jurisdiction" more important than preventing murders? These are just lines on the map- just as the Constitution is just words on a piece of paper. If you are morally opposed to murder, aren't you a hypocrite if you don't argue for the government doing everything possible to eliminate it?
Let's fast-forward this conversation a bit and we would probably conclude that we limit the government's power to stop murder with borders, and jurisdiction, and constitutional protections, BECAUSE an unrestrained nation with zero murders is probably far more immoral than a nation that has some murder.
As recently as 150 years ago, it was perfectly legal for a man to shoot another man in cold blood. You might have seen a Hip-Hop musical about a founding father killed in such a way. Even in places where dueling was outlawed, for many years the state spent fewer resources investigating and prosecuting dueling deaths than other types. In part this was because the alternative of putting thousands of men in jail for a culturally tolerated act would have caused more harm than good.
So let's just look at the circumstances of abortion. For 60 years we have had a very heated and divisive argument about this, to the point that we have an epidemic of murder by people who don't believe they are actually murdering someone, any more than a duelist felt they were murdering. It is going to take generations to untangle that moral confusion.
If Pro-Lifers want a more harmonious nation, then the last thing we should be seeking is a police state focused on the mass-criminalization of brainwashed kids. We should be condemning the brainwashers, making the moral case for life, making access to abortion more difficult, and offering help (Like these pregnancy centers that abortion lunatics keep burning down).
Why is "Jurisdiction" more important than preventing murders?
First, in the current discussion, it's not about "preventing murders", but prosecuting alleged murders after the fact. That is, according to the literal pro-life position, abortion is literal murder, and a woman who has an abortion has participated in an act of murder. However many do not want to prosecute the woman for her role in the murder. That is the conundrum here: abortion is murder, but should not be treated like murder as far as the law is concerned.
Why is jurisdiction important? Because jurisdiction defines the scope of a government's authority. The US laws against murder do not apply to Canada. So if a Canadian woman has an abortion, she is not guilty of the American crime of murder, because she's not an American. If she is guilty of the Canadian crime of murder, that is up to the Canadian authorities to decide. If you want to argue that she is *morally* guilty of murder, then fine, but that is a different argument than trying to impose US law on a Canadian citizen.
Let's fast-forward this conversation a bit and we would probably conclude that we limit the government's power to stop murder with borders, and jurisdiction, and constitutional protections, BECAUSE an unrestrained nation with zero murders is probably far more immoral than a nation that has some murder.
This is a curious inversion of the argument.
First, I'll agree that in principle, some limits on government power to investigate crimes after the fact (again we aren't talking about 'preventing crime') are justified in the name of civil liberties.
But, what has just happened here? In the states that are now going to heavily restrict or ban abortion, the scope of the classification of "murder" (what pro-lifers would regard as murder, anyway) is going to vastly increase. If a woman self-induces an abortion, then by the pro-life standard, a murder has been committed even if they are unwilling to formally charge that woman with the crime of murder. And people like Nick are saying "whoa, here comes the sex police to intrusively investigate all of these 'murders'!" And your response is that we should not worry about that, because we justly recognize limits on the power of the state to investigate crimes like murders if it leads to gross violations of civil liberties, so there isn't going to be a mass investigation of every miscarriage. But, if that's the case - then WHAT IS THE POINT of this change, from a legal perspective? If the status quo ante was that abortion is not prosecuted as murder because it is formally legal, but if the new status quo is going to be that abortion is not prosecuted as murder because it would be too injurious to civil liberties to do so, then wouldn't it simply be more honest to leave things the way they were, with abortion formally legal? Even from a civil liberties perspective, if you are genuinely worried about the civil liberties of women being hassled by the 'sex police', wouldn't keeping abortion legal remove any possibility of that happening? After all, under the new regime, we only have the promises of pro-life politicians that they will NOT unleash the 'sex police' on pregnant women.
If Pro-Lifers want a more harmonious nation, then the last thing we should be seeking is a police state focused on the mass-criminalization of brainwashed kids.
Wow. Just wow. So women who get abortions (most of whom are not "kids" but grown women) are "brainwashed". That's pretty condescending there.
"First, in the current discussion, it's not about "preventing murders", but prosecuting alleged murders after the fact."
So wait a minute...Pro-Lifers *say* that our goal is to prevent murder. You and I both agree that punishing a woman for an abortion won't prevent the murder. So why are you confused that Pro-Lifers- who want to prevent murder- are not obsessed with punishing women. Could it be that Pro-Lifers- many of whom are led by christian values- believe it is better to focus on prevention than vengeance?
"Why is jurisdiction important? Because jurisdiction defines the scope of a government's authority. "
But so is ANY limit on the Constitution or government in general. The government may not infringe our speech because we have limited its scope and authority to do so. The question remains, WHY have we done this?
"First, I'll agree that in principle, some limits on government power to investigate crimes after the fact (again we aren't talking about 'preventing crime') are justified in the name of civil liberties."
Good. Now imagine if we focused our energy on defining the appropriate balance between preventing/punishing murder and preventing an immoral state. Not spending hours questioning the motives of your opponents. Not making silly arguments like "Because I don't like the consequences of when life begins it must not be a life!" Just focusing on what is a tolerable balance between preserving life and preserving liberty.
" But, if that's the case - then WHAT IS THE POINT of this change, from a legal perspective?"
1) It will decrease abortions, thereby decreasing the number of murders. 2) It will remand to the states a moral question that seems pretty divisive at the federal level. 3) It will end the federal government's support of a morally evil practice.
"Even from a civil liberties perspective, if you are genuinely worried about the civil liberties of women being hassled by the 'sex police', wouldn't keeping abortion legal remove any possibility of that happening?"
Yes, but it would also keep the baby killing going on.
"Wow. Just wow. So women who get abortions (most of whom are not "kids" but grown women) are "brainwashed". That's pretty condescending there."
Our entire culture has been brainwashed to believe that murder isn't murder. The majority of abortions occur among college age kids. Feel free to change brainwashed to a longer phrase like "convinced by people who are morally confused". *shrug*
Fortunately, some of us have thought through and discussed jurisdiction.
https://reason.com/2022/06/24/alitos-abortion-ruling-overturning-roe-is-an-insult-to-the-9th-amendment/?comments=true#comment-9561466
We have 3 parties here:
A. Woman
B. Child
C. 3rd party contractor
B exists entirely within A, so I'm fine with considering that outside US or state jurisdiction for the purposes of whatever A does herself.
But once A involves C, C's actions bring the procedure into state or US jurisdiction.
Let's say A is suicidal. If A hangs herself, no crime. But if A hires C to kill her, C is still going to be held liable for murder.
Maybe it's the procedure rather than the result that can/should be outlawed. It's not like consent makes any experiment a doctor wants to perform legal even if the subject agrees to it.
You ask a legit question, and the answer depends on how many people are involved. Is it a medical decision between woman and doctor, or 2 wolves and 1 sheep voting on who's for dinner?
Different states will provide different answers to that question now.
Square = Circle
June.24.2022 at 9:21 pm
But does this still hold if the fetus never leaves the womb alive?
Nardz
June.24.2022 at 10:01 pm
Yes, because C exists entirely within US jurisdiction. At the point C acts upon B, C has brought B into that jurisdiction with him
Square = Circle
June.24.2022 at 10:06 pm
Doesn't C have to enter jurisdiction A to act upon B?
Nardz
June.25.2022 at 2:42 am
There is no jurisdiction A.
A exists within the jurisdiction of the state, as does C.
B exists within A, so B is out of contact with the external world.
C brings the outside world, the state's jurisdiction, with him into contact with B.
C is a killer-for-hire who profits by taking the lives of defenseless beings. C gets no legal protection.
Nardz
June.25.2022 at 3:09 am
To clarify:
There is no jurisdiction A.
While A and C exist within state jurisdiction, within A is jurisdiction-less space inhabited by B.
The intervention of C extends state jurisdiction into space that had no jurisdiction prior.
It's easier to draw the concept, but I'll try to describe it instead.
We have 3 parties (A, B, C) in 2 spaces/dimensions (X=outside A, Y=inside A).
A+C inhabit X
B inhabits Y
X and Y are separate, unconnected.
The State has jurisdiction in X, thus A and C are within jurisdiction of X, but that jurisdiction does not extend to Y as it is unconnected to X. There exists a barrier between X and Y.
C breaks the barrier bringing Y, and therefore B, into X when C performs the abortion and connects Y to X.
C cannot escape X because C is a subsection of X.
When C enters Y it establishes connection of B to X.
There is no jurisdiction A.
But there is, by virtue of "B exists entirely within A, so I'm fine with considering that outside US or state jurisdiction for the purposes of whatever A does herself."
But I think this is in turn informed by another principle on which we may not agree which is:
"Let's say A is suicidal. If A hangs herself, no crime. But if A hires C to kill her, C is still going to be held liable for murder."
This is not entirely true - there are states and countries that allow assisted suicide, and I personally believe assisted suicide should be considered right, as it is victimless.
If we're going to assert an absolute right of a woman to abort a fetus based on bodily jurisdiction, doesn't it seem to beleaguer taking such a strong moral stand against a medical professional helping her do it safely and with minimal suffering for all involved?
C cannot escape X because C is a subsection of X.
But A can?
Different states will provide different answers to that question now.
Which is as it should be, since contra both Overt and Jeff, it is not all that crystal clear what the right answers are.
Overt, you are confusing two issues here.
You and I both agree that punishing a woman for an abortion won't prevent the murder.
That's right. But that is not an answer to the question that I raised - if abortion is literal murder, why should the woman not be charged with a crime associated with that murder? If the answer is "because it wouldn't do any good in stopping the murder", then that is an argument for having no criminal laws at all. After all, prosecuting a thief for the crime of theft after the fact doesn't prevent the theft from occurring in the first place... The other answer you gave above was that it would be too much of an infringement on civil liberties to prosecute the woman. But if THAT is the case, why not leave the status quo the way it was, in which the civil liberties of the woman is not threatened? And then you responded with:
1) It will decrease abortions, thereby decreasing the number of murders. 2) It will remand to the states a moral question that seems pretty divisive at the federal level. 3) It will end the federal government's support of a morally evil practice.
On #1: using the law as a deterrent effect to create a particular social outcome is a dangerous road. This is a rationale behind gun control laws, or drug laws - create laws that are unenforceable and/or difficult to enforce, with the hope that fear of punishment will convince people to adopt the government's point of view. And in this particular case, there wouldn't even be any fear of punishment from the woman's point of view anyway!
On #2: that is an argument about the proper level of government to decide upon the law, not a reason for having the law one way or another.
On #3: the federal government never *supported* abortion, public funding of it was always illegal.
Feel free to change brainwashed to a longer phrase like "convinced by people who are morally confused". *shrug*
Umm, I don't know if you realize how completely condescending you sound right here. I am quite certain that a large number of women who got abortions were not "morally confused" at the time. Besides, who is to say that they are the ones who are "morally confused" and you are the one who is not? Maybe it is the other way around. Yes, you want to preserve the life of the fetus, we all understand that. But this defense rests on several gigantic moral assumptions, not the least of which is that the fetus has rights in the first place.
"This is not entirely true - there are states and countries that allow assisted suicide, and I personally believe assisted suicide should be considered right, as it is victimless."
That's fine, but the unborn child isn't committing suicide.
"If we're going to assert an absolute right of a woman to abort a fetus based on bodily jurisdiction, doesn't it seem to beleaguer taking such a strong moral stand against a medical professional helping her do it safely and with minimal suffering for all involved?"
She has the right to damage herself internally, and assumes the risk of doing so. Nobody else has a right to profit from killing the unborn child. If a woman thinks she can't safely abort the child herself, oh well. We're talking elective abortions here, so allowing to kill the life she created without fear of penalty is already generous. There is no justification for making that easier or safer, nor allow people to make money from doing it. It's absolutely abhorrent that we've allowed people to make their living, millions even, off committing homicide for so long. The State can reasonably refrain from taking a position on what a woman does herself, accepting that the unborn child is out of its reach, but that isn't true of 3rd party intervention and an industry dedicated to homicide.
""C cannot escape X because C is a subsection of X."
But A can?""
A is not escaping X. As far as A is concerned, X and Y are mutually exclusive. X=outside, Y=inside.
"But that is not an answer to the question that I raised - if abortion is literal murder, why should the woman not be charged with a crime associated with that murder?"
No your original assertion was that we ought to investigate every mother for murder if their pregnancy ends. Make up your mind.
But to answer this new item:
1) Because in order to charge women with murder, we would have to investigate these incidents and enforce the investigations and punishments we would have to create a government far more draconian.
2) I don't believe many or most mothers who kill their child intend to snuff a life, even though that is exactly what they are doing. Just as with dueling in the past, it is an unfortunate fact that this great moral wrong has not been treated as such for over 3 generations. Now we could throw millions of women in jail for doing what half the country has told them is ok, or we could begin the long process of changing minds on the matter. The start of that is denormalizing it.
"On #1: using the law as a deterrent effect to create a particular social outcome is a dangerous road."
I have no idea what this means. One of the primary purposes of the government is to prevent the violation of rights by others. I am not seeking a "social outcome". I am seeking the protection of rights of innocent human beings. If governments and their laws didn't deter rights-violators from violating laws, those laws would be good for nothing but vengeance. And vengeance is not (in my mind) the purpose of a government.
"This is a rationale behind gun control laws, or drug laws"
Surprise! It's the rationale behind pretty much every law. Don't rob a house or you'll be thrown in jail! The difference is that one set of laws (robbery and abortion) is trying to deter rights violations while the other set of laws is trying to deter the free exercise of a person's rights.
Just for a moment, imagine that you were Pro Life. Imagine that you were interested in a stable society that values the life of the unborn. You aren't interested in fire and brimstone. You don't want vengeance. You believe that a great evil has ended- a great evil that has unwittingly compromised the moral fiber of millions of people. You want that evil to stay buried and to help the country heal and awaken from this 30 year nightmare.
Would you become a draconian pundit who thru morally confused women in jail in vengeance for abortion? How would that further your ends? It would drive an even bigger wedge preventing the healing of the country. And even if it was somewhat a deterrence, the cost- doubling the size of our prison population- would not be a cost you are willing to pay. The better path to reducing abortion is to dismantle the apparatus that allows it.
When the North won the civil war, they didn't just throw all the slave holders in jail. They didn't even punish the soldiers. There was an attempt to balance the needs of the reunion (sometimes for better and sometimes for worse). The last thing they tried was some dogmatic attempt to punish every single person who had been involved in slavery.
In many cases that meant people who had caused unspeakable evil for decades were not punished for it. The more important task was to end the practice of slavery and ensure that the nation didn't fall apart in the process.
"Umm, I don't know if you realize how completely condescending you sound right here."
Please spare me your white knight moralizing. We can have a discussion or you can try and insult me. We won't be doing both.
"Besides, who is to say that they are the ones who are "morally confused" and you are the one who is not?"
By the by, this rankles me because it seems you want to have it both ways. Your attempt to inject a bunch of emotion about "condescension" notwithstanding, obviously after thinking about the moral case for or against abortion, I am sure I am right. I may be wrong, but so what? The psychopaths in prison could be correct, and there is nothing morally wrong with any sort of killing. If you abandon moral convictions just because someone disagrees, it really isn't a conviction.
Obviously, I believe there is a moral truth here- that abortion is killing a life and we have a moral obligation to protect that life. And here you are objecting to my moral dogmatism out of one side of your mouth. But when, in practice, pro-lifers actually do approach this issue with a non-dogmatic approach, trying to reduce abortions without punishing women who don't share the same moral values, you are here to accuse us of being insincere out the other side of your mouth.
This leads me to believe that you have no interest in understanding the pro life position- you are just trying to construct a bunch of rhetorical traps. If I had said, "Oh yes, let's do investigate and punish women for performing an abortion," you would be insisting that this is to dogmatic, and destructive to civil rights (just as The Jacket is doing above).
If you would stop trying to rhetorically trick Pro-Lifers into abandoning THEIR morals, you would realize that there is a compromise here. I am dedicated to doing the least amount necessary to achieve my moral goals of protecting the rights to life, while recognizing that the mothers looking to kill their children don't see it that way. But in your bizarro world, you are arguing that I SHOULD be treating those women as murderers in a fit of moral absolutism, while ALSO not passing judgement on their moral code because I might be wrong.
It is a strained logic indeed.
That's fine, but the unborn child isn't committing suicide.
No - the medical professional is assisting the mother to do something in a safe manner that we both agree she has a right to do.
I'm sympathetic to the argument that a state can make a law that doctors aren't allowed to do this, and there's certainly no enumerated constitutional right to allow a doctor to do this, but I also don't think there's firm logic saying that no doctor should ever be allowed to do this and that this is something that state power in all circumstances must act to forbid.
Because when you jump straight to calling it "murder", you're stealing a base every bit as much as the pro-choice crowd is stealing a base by declaring it a "personal medical procedure."
Just to toss in an only semi-related analogy, if someone attempts suicide, should we refuse them medical care because attempting suicide is illegal/immoral? I think you would agree that the answer is "no."
So the difference here is only the notion that the abortion is murder, which is a theological position that the government has no business taking a stand on. If the woman were to self harm for any other reason, I think you would agree that she should not be forbidden medical care. If you agree that the woman has a fundamental right to do whatever she wants to her own body, what is the difference here?
A is not escaping X. As far as A is concerned, X and Y are mutually exclusive. X=outside, Y=inside.
Incidentally, doesn't his essentially make abortion acceptable all the way up to the moment the infant leaves the womb?
I mean, someone the other day offered that up as a rebuttal to me - i.e. that you can't really consider a woman's womb to be "inside" of her or "part of" her for the purposes of thinking about the individuality of the fetus.
"So a possible murder shouldn't be investigated if the investigation would be too intrusive to people's liberties?"
Murder investigations are regularly slowed by the need to abide by Constitutional protections of possible defendants.
"Now let's consider the case of a woman who shows up to work visibly pregnant on Friday, but on Monday, not so much. By the pro-life logic, the case of that "missing person" should be investigated by the police for possible foul play, should it not?"
Just as we investigate all heart attacks as a homicide case. It's the exact same thing.
Of course not. Where is your probable cause? Cop comes a knocking they will be hit with restraining order and law suit for harassment. This article is the work of someone in need of serious talk therapy plus mandatory attendance at a primer 101 course on Constitutional Law and how our Constitution works.
YES it gets worse by the day with facial recognition, gun shot sensors, and...RED FLAG laws.
ENB must have stolen Nick's password or something. Or maybe Shikha. Because this is the kind of hysterical nonsense I would expect from one of them.
He must have found Hunter's crack stash.
"The argument that life begins at conception is at odds not only with history but how we all feel when it comes to miscarriages, which become more far emotionally profound the farther along the pregnancy is."
What the actual fuck?
The argument that life begins at conception is at odds not only with history
Trust The (non) Science!
I'm just gobsmacked by the statement about miscarriages, as if women don't experience profound loss at miscarriage regardless of when it happens. It shows a pretty callous disregard for human life, and an arrogant assumption that everyone shares that callousness.
Just, wow. Nick Gellespie is a real asshole.
Nick's statement on miscarriages:
The argument that life begins at conception is at odds not only with history but how we all feel when it comes to miscarriages, which become more far emotionally profound the farther along the pregnancy is.
He is not saying that miscarriages don't matter early in the pregnancy, he is saying that the loss from miscarriages is *more profound* later in the pregnancy than earlier.
The statement is callous in that it attempts to draw a comparison between the willful termination of an unwanted pregnancy, and the unwilling loss of a wanted pregnancy. It uses the "clump of cells" attitude toward early pregnancies, which is, in and of itself, a callous disregard for human life.
Additionally, it's a shitty proof. It's not measurable, and it's also blatantly false. "We" don't "all" feel that way about miscarriage.
Wait, you don't treat a death from an auto accident differently than a red SUV plowing through a christmas crowd in wisconsin?? Because Nick and Jeff think those are the same things apparently.
Miscarriage and abortion are not two separate worlds. There is a case right now of an American woman in Malta (all abortions are illegal except life of mother).
She had a partial miscarriage at 16 weeks. At that stage, the only way to clean everything out is via a D&C (an abortion procedure). The dctors admit there is zero chance for the fetus to survive but the heart is still beating (so doctors cannot perform the abortion procedure) while various pieces are dead and will now start putrefying. But until sepsis actually sets in, the life of the mother is only potentially at risk rather than at current risk.
Wait. Since when does Malta fall under US jurisdictions?
Global Socialist gonna Global Socialist
“he is saying that the loss from miscarriages is *more profound* later in the pregnancy than earlier”
And it is an absurdly bad statement. I know people who chronically miscarried. Every loss was heart wrenching. The first child was seen on ultrasound at 6 weeks but several after were earlier as they tried to diagnose the problems. And whether they were losing the baby in the first month or longer it was always devastating.
So yeah, Nick is a callous fuck for suggesting that this is “just how people feel” as is anyone defending such blanket declarative mansplaining.
I agree that Nick is collectivizing the experience of a miscarriage and that no two women experience it in the same way. I am simply correcting the record against the claim that Nick is somehow trivializing or dismissing anyone's experience of miscarriage.
You just admitted he trivialized it...
When you collectivize such a highly and deeply painful life event, you trivialize it.
Serious question: Has Jeffy been getting dumber?
He just undid his button down shirt and took off his glasses. This is super jeff.
You fuck nuts don't even want to give kids school meals so STFU. When you do-gooders adopt all the unwanted children and give them loving homes, in as much as your crowd is capable of love, then A LOT more people would join the anti abortion movement.
Don't you have a pro-life resource center, that actually provides services for mothers to keep their children, to burn down?
There are currently two million people waiting to adopt. That's more than enough to cover all the abortions and the foster children eligible for adoption. So go fuck yourself.
Conservatives really want kids to eat, actually. They'd just prefer private charity step in when parents can't make ends meet to feed their kids, rather than government. Not wanting government to do something is different than not wanting a society to do something.
Conservatives really want kids to eat, actually.
Poor choice of wording, though probably true in some cases.
Could be worse. Could be liberals who really want kids to fuck.
...And the difference --------- Those legal Gov-Guns out threatening, imprisoning and shooting people for their 'ends'....
But it is pretty ironic that they have no problem using exactly that same 'tool' to FORCE every women they don't even know to reproduce.
Lock him up!!!! For being a *reality* *sshole!!!! /s
Pro-Life's Power-Madness just keeps getting bigger.
It's as stupid as "the argument that there should be a separation of church and state is at odds not only with history"
Or "the argument that the world is more than 5000 years old is at odds not only with history"
Or "the argument that world revolves around the sun is at odds not only with history"
Its the Historian's fallacy.
Just to be pedantic, the Earth and the Sun revolve around a common point called the barycenter (which admittedly, happens to be located within the Sun)
Yep, that is indeed pedantic.
That's why Copernicus failed to create a model that predicted planetary motion better than Ptolemy. Copernicus assumed a Sun stationary at the center of the universe. It wasn't until Kepler figured it out—that the Sun moves—that heliocentric models became more accurate than geocentric ones.
Wrong. The sun revolves around the supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way
Wrong. They both revolve around their common center of mass.
""The argument that life begins at conception is at odds not only with history but how we all feel when it comes to miscarriages, which become more far emotionally profound the farther along the pregnancy is."
What the actual fuck?"
I'd ask Nick why it would be more emotionally profound the farther along it is for a non-human to be removed the female. Does he bemoan the removal of cancerous tumors if they've been there for a long while?
"...which makes it highly likely that some state governments will eventually force their way into every bedroom along with every examination room."
Again, what the actual fuck?
This article is untethered from anything even approaching reality.
We figured out which of the regulars were daydrinking.
That was not really a difficult thing to figure out.
Progressive confession via projection.
Nick's article here reveals his, the pro vax passport crowd's, desire and perspective of the world.
BEEEEcause government has no history of doing so? Or they have no history of expanding powers to absurd lengths?
+10000000000
What a bunch of crybabies.
If life begins at conception, there are virtually no limits on government surveillance of women in a post-Roe world.
Most laws only outlaw abortion providers, not people seeking it. This ruling doesn't actually imply anything about government surveillance. Whatever government surveillance predated the ruling is still there. But keep in mind most lawmakers aren't interested in prosecuting women who've gotten abortions.
This is a hyperbolic, emotion-driven reaction, and it's not befitting a publication called Reason. What you should look at is the actual popularity of proposed abortion bans because there's a chance of political blowback against the GOP for overly restrictive abortion laws.
Overturning Roe and Casey didn't settle this issue, it's going to remain hotly contested and will probably take a full election cycle to fully shake out. You shouldn't assume it's going to fall in favor of an extreme position.
Yeah, I don't know why the assumption is automatically that it's going to be the worst case scenario possible, and not the kind of middle of the roadish scenario, where the states you would expect to ban abortion, ban abortion, and the one you would expect to have extremely liberal policies, have extremely liberal policies, and the rest are somewhere in the middle.
I don't even know where this insano idea that governments are going to actively monitor people's sex lives is even coming from. That's just nuts.
I suspect states that have full abortion bans are also going to have to scale back, as well. I think you're going to find there's still support for early-term (before about the 9th week) chemically-induced abortions in the vast majority of states. The bans may end up targeting surgical abortions.
You may be right. But at the end of the day, this isn't going to end up as a nightmare Handmaid's Tale. If you can't get an abortion in your home state, you may have to travel to get one, but you'll still be able to get one regardless of where you live.
Florida now has a 15 week limit.
Seems reasonable.
Yeah, I don't know why the assumption is automatically that it's going to be the worst case scenario possible,
Gee it's not like on issue after issue, the libertarian commenters here have indulged their worst paranoid fears. Let's review:
Governance Disinformation Board = MINISTRY OF TRUTH
Jan. 6 rioters arrested for actual crimes = POLITICAL PRISONERS
The military rooting out members of extremist groups = THIRD REICH STYLE PURGE
Teaching kids that homosexuality is not an evil perversion = GROOMING
So the rule is, apparently, Democrats should be given no quarter, while Republicans should be given the benefit of the doubt.
And FTR I agree that Nick's hyperbolic predictions are unlikely to come to pass. But if you're going to call out paranoid thinking, at least be a little bit more even-handed about it.
Please see above how jeff is fine with actual abuses against his perceived enemies but prefers defending hyperbolic abuses here.
Jesse goes 'yip yip yip'
This is worse than shrikes reports lol.
Youre comparing actual abuses, documented ones, to hyperbolic imaginations. Because the left told you to.
Retorts*
can't hear you over all the yipping
You and shrike should have a contest to see who can be more insipid.
"Insipid", ooo that's a grown-up word. Did you just learn it?
Unlike you Jeff, I'm actually educated. Do you want to discuss security clearances again?
Sorry, your mail order degree from Internet University doesn't count
Man. You really are as bad as shrike.
Yer mom. Haha sick burn!
Yep, broken like sarc.
In regards to Jan. 6th, they are being held for over a year, on incredibly minor charges like trespassing or vandalism if that. Meanwhile, people who set fire to cities for months were bailed out of jail by members of the current administration. Also, didn't you scream bloody murder when 1 of those rioters was picked up?
The problem is that you took a lot of comparisons that aren't hyperbole and compared them to silly hyperbole.
Nobody here opposes sentences for the rioters on Jan. 6, it's the peaceful members of the crowd, some who weren't even aware that there had been a riot or any violence, that were being handed overly harsh treatments.
Nobody here likes disinformation, we just think the government shouldn't be policing speech at all. The idea that the government is making "recommendations" on countering disinformation is bad enough, and we've already seen plenty of government attempts to clamp down on speech. That's literally happening, it's not an exaggeration.
I took what people here have actually said about those actions.
Did you somehow miss the weeks of tooth-gnashing around here that the Disinformation Board was a MINISTRY OF TRUTH? That it would lead 3am knocks on the door to drag conservatives to the gulags? I agree that the government should not be setting up a 'disinformation board'. But man the hyperbole and paranoia around here was off the charts. And the ONLY REASON it was so bad was because Democrats were doing it. Trump had his own version of a 'disinformation board' and no one said a peep about it.
So the rule around here is:
Outrageous hyperbole and paranoia against Democrat actions are prudent and justified.
Outrageous hyperbole and paranoia against Republican actions are bad-faith trolling and/or instance of "derangement syndrome".
It’s increasingly garder to tell if you are more dishonest or stupid.
The Disinformation Board was proven to be more than they said it was, it was in fact to be a direct conduit to Big Tech, and Trump had no such thing like it.
Oh really. Please, proceed to tell us what the DGB "really was". Be sure to provide references for your claims.
They literally raided a guy's house at 4 am, with a full swat team and militarized federal police vehicles, and seized all his electronic devices because he was talking about alternate electors.
This happened just a couple days ago.
For some reason I don't trust your description of the events.
Your life doesn't matter
Please, PLEASE give us all an example of the government staying middle of the road. I would LOVE to read about these examples.
How is it nuts? Have you not heard of sodomy laws?
Methinks a lot more than one election cycle.
Meanwhile Rwasons writers have ignored plenty of invasive investigations from J6 to raids on Project Veritas.
Most abortions are via pill. The mother takes the pill. Who performed the abortion?
most lawmakers aren't interested in prosecuting women who've gotten abortions.
Which makes no sense and reveals their hypocrisy and sexism. If abortion is murder, then a woman who seeks an abortion is guilty of hiring a hit man.
[WE] mob authority is getting more extreme by the day...
So I'm not sure where you get off thinking Gov-Guns aren't going to following into an extreme position especially when one can't even find an Individual Right in the Constitution that people own themselves. (I.e. COVID mandates).
The bullshit from Reason contributors is really piling up tonight.
"Mr. Bumble
June.24.2022 at 6:07 pm
Mute User
The bullshit from Reason contributors is really piling up tonight."
Leftists gonna leftist
It's funny that reason had exactly 1 article about how having abortion decided at the state level, not the fed level is libritarian
Individual Liberty (I.e. PERSONAL CHOICE) is not equal to "federal-level" legislation.
And that is why it was from the Supreme Court and not Politicians...
The comment attributed to Lincoln that is is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt applies in spades to this piece by Gillespie and several of the other Reason writers.
The past couple months of Reason's stringent, almost unhinged pro-choice articles have pushed me further onto the pro-life side. I mean, that's a sign that you're REALLY doing a shitty job at advancing your side of the issue.
Whatever happened to "safe, legal, and rare" as an advocacy position?
They've become ghoulish.
As someone who's been pro-life for most of my life, in the past, I didn't like it, but I could at least make peace with it, as long as it was generally acknowledged that abortion may be legal, but it was definitely undesirable and nobody liked it, and it was generally a private thing that you didn't talk about.
Now there are women on social media "shouting their abortions," and taking abortion pills on the steps of the Supreme Court. It's become a celebration of death.
I was happy to leave it alone until it got that way.
I was totally not anti-gay until they started holding hands and kissing in public!
I was totally pro-women until they started burning their bras!
I was totally pro-black until they protested centuries of state-sanctioned violence!
/s
If someone exercising their liberty where you can see it is enough to turn you against liberty for all members of that class... were you really ever in favor of liberty to begin with?
None of the above involves baby-murder.
what "baby"???
Free those ?babies? - slaver...
I wasn't anti gay until I accidentally happened upon a cruising hot spot.
Fags are disgusting disease spreading degenerates.
Fags are disgusting disease spreading degenerates.
Are you from the Mises Caucus?
Someone’s getting paid to attack the Mises caucus.
More honest discourse from Jeff and how he never collectivises people.
I'm feeling the same way about the death penalty; the more lunatics like Reason and the Innocence project lie and defend actual guilty people on death row the more I wanna see the bastards hang!
My pro-life position also extends to the death penalty.
There's a large difference between accepting that the compromise position on the practice of abortion exists and I need to live with that reality as best I can, and accepting the excesses of the practice.
Just because I am in favor of full civil rights for LGBT people does not mean I have to accept their current excesses, or I'm not longer in favor of civil rights for LGBT. Just like supporting racial equality means that I have to bend the knee to BLM or I'm no longer in favor of racial equality. They're not the same thing.
By saying you don't accept their current excesses means exactly what are you trying to say it doesn't.
^totalitarian cancer
Whatever happened to ----- Pro-Choice Republicans???? (I.e. LIMITED Government).
Can I just comment on the positive here? Just think: we’ll all get to celebrate our victories here— enabled by liberty lovers like Samuel Alito and Brett Kavanaugh— by having a concealed carry celebration outside their house. What an outstanding way to thank these brave patriots! I mean, can I get a “Yeehaw!” here or what? What a great day to be a Black and gay man who is GOP Proud like Caitlin and Milo.
Clearly emotional NBC newsreader (whom, I believe, identifies as a woman) just stated "this bans abortion in 26 states." "Ban" doesn't mean "restrictions." I really doubt, when the dust settles and the voters in 50 states have their say, there will be even 10 states where abortion is "banned." As for Amendment #9, how is one to identify those "certain rights...retained by the people?" Is it up to 5 justices for life who may have been appointed long before cultural values changed, or by a national referendum, or by the people's representatives in the several states?
13 states alone have "trigger" bans that were passed fairly recently that automatically take effect or with pre-defined approval process or 30 day waiting period starting today. You'll be hard pressed to win any bet on that "10 states" claim of yours.
A number of states still have pre-Roe abortion bans, like Wisconsin, that might have just gone into effect as well.
The majority of the newly passed abortion bans make no exception for rape or incest, either.
Given the current race-to-the-moral-bottom that's happening in the GOP these days, I would expect more than half of US states to ban abortion in nearly all circumstances by this time next year. And keep in mind that the majority of Republicans supported Roe v Wade and didn't want it overturned and yet state after state set up anti-abortion laws designed to reach SCOTUS for this very purpose. You'd think with an actual, representative government, that this couldn't happen. (and if you did think that, you'd be right.) But the norm for a lot of the country now, especially (but not limited to) Red states, gerrymandering has made our governments less representative.
Given the current race-to-the-moral-bottom that's happening in the GOP these days, I would expect more than half of US states to ban abortion in nearly all circumstances by this time next year.
---------
I'll take the under and bet any amount of money you like.
Exactly. The idea if it is not in the constitution it is not protected is so far from the founder's intent it is comical to read all these constitution lovers defending this absurd ruling.
The ruling isn't absurd. OK, there are unenumerated rights, and one of them is the ability to decide how many kids you have. But it doesn't follow that such a right, as a matter of constitutional law, trumps the right of an unborn child to not be murdered, but only until so many weeks of pregnancy.
One just loves that 'unborn' pronoun....
Ya know; like unmade houses... unfinished homework... An undone job... ---- The funny part about it is only in 'abortion' discussion does 'UN' become 'FINISHED'....
If you don't support fetal ejection
UR supporting FORCED reproduction...
Unpaid bills, undelivered goods and services, unfulfilled obligations. More things that impose on people and make them sad.
The ruling makes an argument for why abortion is not unenumerated right. It might do to actually address it, and why you think it is.
If you can't recognize an Individuals right of ownership to their own selves then you're playing childish manipulative mind-games.
The sex police, they live inside of my head
The sex police, they come to me in my bed
The sex police, they're coming to arrest me, oh no!
*barf*
Thank you Tokyo. Barfman says goodnight!
It's official Reason has jumped the shark. RIP Reason.
It was official years ago.
Dude! You can't write stuff like this. You are one of the only sane voices left. And this is beyond "slippery slope" crazy argumentum ad absurdum. This is just crazy talk.
We have a once in a century opportunity to actually reach a public consensus on an important and intractable issue.. and You weigh in with such an insane and easily dismissable take? Not you, Nick. You are too good for this.
You are too good for this.
Clearly not.
58% of Americans when polled did not want Roe overturned. What, exactly, is "consensus" in this situation? Is there ever going to be a consensus on a topic that once side frames as "baby killer?" To even attempt consensus implies there's a desire for compromise. We had a compromise that a clear majority favored until today.
Regardless, expecting a group of people who've returned to calling homosexuals "pedophiles" and "groomers" and spouting deep state QAnon hysteria to sit down and form a consensus is just crazy. We don't have an opportunity to come to consensus because one of the players has joined a cult and is living in another reality.
OK guy that pressures his girlfriend to kill their baby.
Cite shawn has a girlfriend?
My guess is that he/him is the girlfriend
what "baby"???
I know;;; LIE, LIE, LIE, LIE, LIE, LIE, LIE, LIE, LIE, LIE until those LIES become truth....
And that's how B.S. propaganda is done.
If you don't support fetal ejection...
UR supporting FORCED reproduction.
Regardless, expecting a group of people who've returned to calling homosexuals "pedophiles" and "groomers"
Stupidly wrong but typical for someone who concludes the other group isn't reasonable. You'll fit in well with the other left wing commenters. No facts, no reason, but full of lies to justify your hatred.
Way to sidestep the question.
Much larger majorities do not support abortion after viability. Yet we have places in the US that support abortion on demand long after that.
And if you haven't noticed, there is not a concensus in support of Roe, not even among the legal community, and even there not even among the pro-choice crowd.
The consensus that doesn't exist is around what the national policy on abortion should be, whether you call it a right or not.
Very few people support either extreme... outside of courts and legislatures in states insulated from the consequences of the extreme.
Now we have an opportunity to have the debate. But we are off to a bad start. Pretty much everything being promulgated on the national news is dishonest. And if you start with dishonest premises, you can never reach an honest dialog.
The only question that really needs to be debated is "what is a life that deserves protection". No biggie, right?
The vast majority wants some compromise that allows some form of very early abortion. The more you move away from that, the more people you peel off.
It isn't a position arrives at from first principles. But it may be the only compromise available. "Bodily autonomy" as the only principle leads to abortion on demand up to birth. No sane person supports that, even though you will get partisans mouthing the words when asked to parrot the party line. "Life begins at conception" is at least a defensible moral stance, so moving some people from that will be difficult. But it is too absolute to be workable in reality.
So compromise it is... a fundamentally political exercise. There can be no ideal solution to this... there are fundamental principles that are necessarily in direct and irreconcilable conflict.
You understand that Roe was not legislation and the judiciary is not a legislature? Public opinion does not matter to a court decision, only if the ruling comforts with the constitution.
I doubt very much he understands any of that. It wasn’t in his email this morning.
"public consensus" on the PERSONAL reproduction process....
Yeah!!! I wonder what other PERSONAL things can become "public domain"..... /s
When will [WE] mob group-sex start by "public consensus"?? Surely sexual intercourse can't be left up to just a couple to decide... It must be "public consensus"!
No, and it didn't formally define the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary until 1950, but you from the earliest days of the Church, you didn't find anybody claiming to have first-class relics of her body, meaning that it was universally accepted that such things didn't exist (her body being in heaven).
There's a lot of arguments like that. The Theology of The Body didn't really develop much until recently as well. The Church develops doctrine as the world brings questions.
Abortion in various forms pre-dates the Church. Why wait until the 19th century to answer that question?
Read the Didache (1st century).
Will June 23 and 24 be celebrated as a combined national holiday to honor the emancipation of gun owners and the unborn?
Kind of fascinating, in one case they are empowering states and in another case they are disempowering states. 10th amendment anyone?
The bastard amendment everyone seems to forget.
Or, reading the rulings, in one case the constitution is clear about a natural right, and in the other there is no right there as far as the federal government is concerned.
This is the part people don't seem to get.
Everyone wants to argue about Abortion or Gun Control. They've been emotional and divisive issues politicians have played on my entire life. But, especially for a libertarian magazine, these aren't the issues.
The issues are states' rights (10A) where anything not specifically enumerated is reserved to states and people -- it's not Federal responsibility if it doesn't say it is.
And, very obviously, 2A, which very specifically lists a right that cannot be infringed. By leaving decisions to the whims of some random official, you now no longer have a right. Dude at the county courthouse doesn't like you? No permit! That gives power to deny a right often to a single individual in government, which is antithetical to the entire notion of a natural right.
But, you know, they're killing babies/enslaving women or they're taking my guns/arming bad guys. For fuck's sake, it has nothing to do with either thing. It's just the level of government who is specifically charged with taking care of something and adhering to the constitution in so doing.
Whatever. Point out something to a cat, it's likely to look at your finger, not where you're pointing.
Putting aside your positions on the specific issues, states rights in modern times is an almost archaic remnant of our past and has little to do with it present and almost nothing to do with our future. Consider:
Americans are most informed on national issues and national elected leaders and know nothing about their state elected leaders and state issues. Sending things to the states is tantamount to burying them where special interests can run rampant. This is a function of dying local newspapers and the heightened mobility of residents who no longer are born raised and die where their ancestors were.
The infatuation with states rights is illogical and based on a no longer true fantasy about government close to the people. By the way, DeSantis has specialized in getting numerous laws passed which take control from cities and counties and place it with the state, including penalties for drying or challenging the state. That's what is meant by states rights?
Joe reveals the delusion shared with too many Americans: they want society to be a certain way, and have no reluctance to violate fundamental principals of a notionally free society to make us that way.
Joe Friday... Cheering for >>>National<<< Socialism again...
Ya know that same ideology officially the National Socialist German Worker's Party headed by Hitler or in Germany Language called '(Na)tionalso(zi)alistische' which quickly got abbreviated to Nazi.....
Only Nazism is 'logical' to Joe Friday and his ilk...
Joe - if you feel that way, then amend the Constitution to rewrite the entire document. What you've offered is an opinion on how you think governance should be that bears no relationship to the written document.
Don't have the supermajorities to do that? Well, then, tough shit - that simply proves there's not a consensus that the whole system should be changed to match your preferences.
It's not just the federal government that is required to abide by the U.S. Constitutions Bill of Rights...
I thought that was settled after the Civil War.
Disempowering states to violate our rights is an important function of the Supreme Court. They should do a lot more of it.
That sperm and that egg are living tissue. So tell me again when life starts? Hey guys quit pleasuring yourself. Every time you do you are murdering 200 million potential lives. My belief is that sperm are actually babies!!!! You murderous monsters! The government should impose my beliefs on you. Outlaw masturbaton!!
So, behold, the governmant acting on christian beliefs, taking away freedoms.
Guess the GOP got government off our backs and up into women's uteri. I for one don't think government has any business in the uterus, I am for uterine sovereignty. Just because a woman contains a fertilized egg that doesn't justify the government taking control of her body.
It's also very amusing that the same people that think passing legislation attempting to control guns will never work somehow think outlying abortion will.
Every sperm is sacred.
Is that why you swallow?
protein is protein, bubba
Monkey pox.
Viral protein is still a protein.
It's only polite.
As always, Monty Python were decades ahead of their time.
Invalid comparison. The people who want to ban guns do so because they believe that if they don't, a substantial number of people owning guns will do bad things with them. Those who want to ban abortion do so, not because they believe people having abortions will do bad things with them, but because they believe the abortion itself is a bad thing.
They believe more than one person is involved in any abortion.
Leftists cannot acknowledge this perspective.
Leftists are totalitarian cancer, so they want to ban firearms using the excuse that those firearms could take a life... yet treat abortion as sacred despite the fact that abortion is literally taking a life.
As soon as Pro-Life supports freeing that life from it's prison....
If you don't support Fetal (?baby?) Ejection...
UR supporting FORCED reproduction.
Retake biology, preferably not in a public school.
Hey guys quit pleasuring yourself.
You must have attended gubernint skools
Sperm has 23 chromosomes, while a living cell has 46. You likely have azoospermia, though, given your comments lack umph.
At least try to understand the arguments your opponents are making. And probably basic biology too.
Well if you think that the process of aborting a 34 to 36 week unborn child is not killing another person you have a pretty uphill argument, even with your precious scientists. Forget Christian beliefs just ask a scientist. Additionally the only nations that allow very late term abortions are China and North Korea and other dictatorships. The bulk of civilized nations have time limits on abortions. The U.S. for some reason has gotten comfortable with the ghoulish process of aborting babies after 24 weeks.
The U.S. for some reason has gotten comfortable with the ghoulish process of aborting babies after 24 weeks.
FTA:
(one reason, surely, why 93 percent of abortions take place by 14 weeks and just 1 percent after 21 weeks)
And yet you would vehemently and probably violently oppose any restriction on that remainder.
So what was the point?
Science doesn't answer who is a "person." That's a legal question. And if we use Justice Alito's own framework to answer that question, it begins at birth, not conception. Historically, abortions were largely legal through "quickening" which I've ready is roughly equivalent to 16 weeks.
A large number of nations allow "very late term" abortions. This isn't controversial as these are largely due to the baby having died in the womb first or having some other abnormality that would likely harm the mother were she to continue with the pregnancy. Women who do not want to give birth will abort far, far sooner if they have the means. Abortions later in pregnancy are nearly always due to health of the mother.
But if that doesn't convince you, ask yourself this: why would a woman want to let her body grow to such a large size, her hormones go all out of whack, her back hurt, her feet swell, and needing constant trips to the bathroom only to get a "no reason" voluntary abortion at 34 weeks when she could have popped a pill at 5 weeks instead? Do you hold so dim a view of women?
Thats not even rational on your part. Understanding of conception and when a fetus begins life has changed since the middle ages.
Next up, arguing 2a only covers muskets.
Are their any topics besides abortion and guns that bring out more retarded lefties?
2a only covers muskets.
I could support that, if the police and domestically based armed forces could have only muskets.
And if media could have quill pens and presses with moveable type, right?
Humorously; Pro-Life isn't lobbying to stop "killing" unborn children.
They're lobbying to FORCE reproduction..
Support Fetal Ejection.
Well done tzx
No, it is relevant.
The current positions are "it is not your business and the state cannot have any say" and "it is killing a baby and cannot be allowed".
This is the beginning of a road map to a practical compromise that a majority might be able to live with.
"It is murder" becomes less relevant in the case of something like anencephaly. It is hard to argue that a baby without a brain at all is a person. Most people can empathize with a couple nearing the end of their reproductive years not wanting to waste what may be their last chance to have a child on a baby-shaped mass that can never survive, never think, never feel, never have anything of personhood.
I have known several couples faced with that dilemma. A couple at my church chose to carry to term. One was a few years ago and they have not been able to have another. (No, I am not gonna ask if they regret the decision).
The edge cases here make any policy really difficult to live with.
Exactly. You youngsters won't remember this, but before Colorado started the trend of liberalizing abortion law in 1967, it was literally like The Handmaid's Tale in the United States.
Europe has been the handmaid tail for centuries with their murdering women over their more strict than Alabama abortion regulations.
The Handmaid's Tail
Good name for a porno.
Copyrighted.
xhamster says it exists already.
Was curious.
It would be more helpful and efficacious if Reason gave instructions, guides and helpful tidbits, on how Pro-Lifers can best protect themselves from the violent
brownshirts womyn inskirtsTRANS clothing from now until when Jesus returns for the Second Coming. Listing of Sale prices, shipping costs, and max number allowed of items for purchasing ammo for guns and rifles would be bonus!bang, bang!!
Here is a very simple idea about abortion. If a person really believes that abortion is in fact the killing of an actual human being whatever the time period what are they supposed t do just look the other way? Leftists have "compassion" for everything from a bird up to and including a convicted murder on death row. Yet they cannot even acknowledge that an unborn child should be considered at all when an abortion is desired. Seems to be an intellectual disconnect. An innocent life is of no value while a grown adult that murdered or raped another is to be advocated for. Logical?
Woah. If you believe one thing and you know there are a lot of people around you who don’t believe as you do, you might want to consider that your belief might be wrong, or at least a little off, before you impose your belief on all of them.
That is one of the more disturbing things about modern conservatism. The arrogance and the complete lack of humility. THEY are the normative standard, and if you disagree it's because you are wrong and hate America.
LOL. Projection. Please go on about trans inclusivity.
Right. "Inclusivity."
So... if you don't believe that killing people and taking their stuff is wrong, everyone else should just respect you beliefs? What an odd argument.
Liberals already reject anyone who believes that taking peoples stuff, at least so they can give it to others who deserve it more, is wrong.
Is that what you would have told people trying to enact the Civil Rights Act of 1964 so as to outlaw discrimination by private businesses?
Remember, Dee claims to be a libertarian.
Are you saying that Libertarians are all wrong because there are so few?
Yep, and the dumb bird doesn’t even realize that’s what she did.
Okay, let's take this as a moral standard for the sake of argument: If you think someone is acting in a dramatically immoral way that is endangering themselves or others, you are obligated to act on your beliefs.
So, take a devout Evangelical Christian who sees that a neighboring family is raising their kids as atheists or Wiccans. That Christian "really believes" that this is endangering the children's immortal souls and damning them to hell. They are obligated to act and get them to safety. Do they:
a) kidnap them and baptize them against their parent's will?
b) pass laws requiring all children be baptized as Evangelical Christians?
c) loudly berate the parents whenever you see them?
d) all of the above.
I'm sure Evangelicals are very devout and sincere in their beliefs that raising a child in a same-sex marriage, or atheist, or Wiccan is seriously damaging to children. Do they look the other way?
Us "Leftists" see that there are a balance of issues surrounding abortion and not just the potential life represented by the fetus. There's also the life of the woman, any children or other dependents she may already have, and the fact that this is a deep intrusion into her personal space and bodily autonomy. This could be the result of a rape or she has a condition that pregnancy could complicate and risk her life. Seeing things as only black and white is morally simplistic and lazy.
Kudos to shawn_dude! (I can only hope that some sunny day the witch-burners will actually LISTEN!)
So, it comes down to intrusion into a woman's personal space and bodily autonomy. Does that mean any similar intrusions, for any person, are wrong, even if self-induced? Can I demand cancelation of any intrusion that I decide is unfair? Does this mean I can refuse to pay the bill for the cruise I just went on?
It's not Individual Liberty OR Justice for all..
It's Individual Liberty AND Justice for all...
Nice try though... Justice is prosecuting the murdering of children...
It's not "banning" medical procedures on pregnant women.
And once again....
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom ( I.E. Fetal Ejection )
UR supporting FORCED reproduction...
Yep; It's really just that simple in *reality* - outside the land of unicorn fairy tales and mythical creatures.
Obviously, I'm not an intellectual, sarcastic or even funny, and nothing I write ever elicits positive responses from anyone, but you've expressed my opinion to a certain extent. If you think that abortion is murder, it is hard to look the other way. I understand all the points about imposing your beliefs on someone else or forcing someone to give birth, which do sound harsh. Abortion has become so routine, accepted (and celebrated) that it's hard to justify a pro-life position. I understand the religious principles and also the science behind that position. I think it's about packaging more than anything else. We live in a world that spits on religious people, so if they are marketing pro-life, it must be wrong. Scientific explanations are only accepted when a political position is strengthened by them. If only we could make pro-life cool. I am consistent, if nothing else, since I am against capital punishment and am a vegan.
If you think that abortion is murder, it is hard to look the other way.
This reveals the insincerity of the "abortion is killing babies" crowd. If they genuinely believed that babies were being murdered at abortion clinics, mobs of them would rise up and destroy the facilities in order to save those lives. That nearly all of them are reasonable about it and willing to use the political process to restrict abortion rather than violent direct action tells us that, contrary to their words, they really do see the difference between terminating a pregnancy and murdering a child.
This is an incredibly disingenuous comment.
So people like Abraham Lincoln who said that slavery was a great moral evil but weren't willing to support violent direct action against it of the sort taken by John Brown must have been hypocrites who didn't really believe what they said.
Yes; both parties are complete hypocrites on the 'abortion' debate.
Pro-Life fits so well in the Democrats mentality (F'Liberty) -- Ironically most Democrats are Catholics and the Catholic church founded the Pro-Life movement.
Pro-Choice fits well in the Republican platform (LIMITED Government).
Oh; And a Republican Supreme Court WROTE Roe v Wade.
Back in those days, the Democratic party may have been more reliably pro-life than the Republicans. Back then, remember, even Ted Kennedy and Jesse Jackson were pro-life, and there were a lot of conservative Catholic Dems.
*Ultron voice*
OH, FOR GOD'S SAKE!
Nick has just proved there is no "reason" to even discuss this ruling.
Nick, you’re old enough to remember before Roe, we’re cops routinely searching women’s vaginas and putting their hands on every fat chicks stomach to check for babies?
Well, probably some cops were.
And are. There have been stories about just that here on Reason.
You mean... when unrestricted abortion on demand was legal and protected by the federal government?
I assume you're talking about some times in the last 49 years and not going back before Roe for your examples
Only Pre-Viable pregnancies... You understand that right?
And P.S.; It wasn't the Federal Government.
It was the Supreme Courts interpretation of Individual Rights form the U.S. Constitution (pretty sure you know that one no matter how ignorant of it you *want* to pretend).
Even post-Roe, women couldn't get personal credit or divorce without permission from their husbands. And husbands could legally rape their wives. What makes you think we needed cops back then to sniff out pregnant women?
But we can look to a similar situation back then to shed light on how this could go: sodomy laws. Regardless of how they were written, these were basically designed to criminalize gay men. Police would routinely patrol areas known for gay clientele and raid them (see: Stonewall Inn among many, many others.) They would round the men up, book them, and then often have their photo and names published in the local paper. After which, the men would lose their jobs, family, and futures.
How might this look today? Imagine a world where everything is tracked via a snooping device you carry with you everywhere you go. It tracks everything you read. All of your questions. Tracks your location and the devices of other people near that location. It helps track all of your purchases, too. With that information, there's no need to give women the "Trump treatment" by grabbing their vaginas, just filter all of their personal information through an AI designed to spot women likely to have sought out an abortion. Done! You've saved liberty!
Quietly enrolls in the police academy.
No; they just hired 3rd party (doctors) to do that job.
I really look forward to seeing the articles from the extended Reason staff. I know Nick is a major person, but he writes less these days. So, it's good to hear from him.
I look forward to Slade and KMW.
Masochist!
I agree, it is good to see a diversity of views on the subject.
Holy moral panic, Batman!
Economy: be more like Europe!
Green energy: be more like Europe!
Abortion: be more like north korea!
Let's be fair, they want us to be more like North Korea on everything.
Only because all roads for socialism lead there.
Don't say the quiet part out loud!
I guess I don't really have anything else to say about this.
the hypocrisy from the left with freedom and abortion is nauseating
The left: "my body my choice."
Also the left: "you don't get a choice, now take the shot!"
And, "no, you can't have cigarettes."
Or vapes.
...and vice versa.
Libertarians for emotional, over-reacting to a bad law being over-turned. - Reason Editors
Seriously Nick, this is pathetic. Please stop pretending to be a Libertarian and just admit your a far left progressive. You'll be happy and so will everybody else.
And this after ENB finally had a reasonable article for the roundup regarding over reactions for the 2a ruling.
Omg.... Get off this 'bad federal law' narrative...
The Supreme Court recognizing that "the people" own themselves isn't bad-legislative law or wrong [WE] mob Gov-Gun Power... It is the very ENTITY put in-charge to OPPRESS Gov-Gun Dictation and grant people their Individual Liberty.
Without it; The Constitution has absolutely NOTHING to back it.
Some of the complete crap and utter B.S. I hear by Power-Mad freaks trying to justify their dictation is insane.
There’s a reason I stopped coming here and I was reminded today of that exact Reason.
what? we didn't have sex police like this before Roe v Wade.
No, the sex police before Roe was overturned almost exclusively went after straight young men to abuse.
There most certainly was a 'pill' police...
Really? The fact that contraceptives were illegal in Connecticut before Griswold didn't mean contraceptives weren't readily available from doctors who wanted to provide them. The practical effect of the law was merely to keep Planned Parenthood from opening clinics and advertising to the world that you could get pills and condoms there.
If one takes the pro-life position literally, then every fertilized egg has just as much of a right to life as a fully grown human being, and any suspected "foul play" that occurs to that fertilized egg should be investigated to determine if it is a case of murder, just the same as if the same had happened to a fully grown human being.
But we know that this is not even the pro-lifers' own position, since prominent pro-life organizations like the NRLC doesn't want to prosecute women who pursue abortions. Why not? If abortion is literal murder, wouldn't a woman pursuing an abortion AT LEAST be guilty of attempted murder? Why shouldn't that be pursued?
So the pro-life position appears to be that abortion is murder, but not literal 'murder' murder, just kinda-sorta murder, not murdery enough for the woman to face any legal consequences, but definitely murdery enough to throw the doctors in jail. And, don't worry, not murdery enough to jeopardize any other rights like Fourth Amendment rights or anything like that.
It's almost like a crime would have to be reported to be investigated.
So, abortion is fine, as long as the woman does a sufficiently good job of concealing the murder?
Maybe the state shouldn't prosecute professional assassins who are good at covering up their crimes. After all, if no one believes it was an assassination, then no crime occurred, right?
Which proposed law are you actually talking about?
More Jesse 'yip yip yip'
I repeat. Which law are you talking about? Difficulty, can't be the voices in your head.
so much yipping
Spiral down the drain Jeff. I like this exposed Jeff. It makes me laugh. Keep showing your true colors buddy.
I’ve been saying Lying Jeffy’s broke like sarc for a bit. Now it’s become obvious.
I hate to break it to you, but many crimes do indeed succeed because police aren't proactive.
And how many "anti-murder" organizations can you name, where said organization says, in their public stance, "but we don't want to hold the murder-host who chose murder responsible, we want to hold responsible, ONLY the hired murder agent?" Besides anti-abortion fanatics, that is?
Plain and simple, anti-abortion fanatics are logically inconsistent publicity whores who want to loudly moan "murder", but then, to make themselves and their fanaticism more palatable to people who fence-straddle when trying to buy their fascism, they add, "but the murder-choosing woman should get off extremely lightly or Scott-free". They are having it both ways!
Here's the equivalent of what many anti-abortion fanatics say:
"The landlord that evicts the tenant, and I don't like it? The landlord should NOT be punished, but the cops and the deputies that come over to the perform the eviction? Punish THEM!"
Totally inconsistent and two-faced!
Maybe the state shouldn't prosecute professional assassins who are good at covering up their crimes. After all, if no one believes it was an assassination, then no crime occurred, right?
I do not understand your point here. You seem to be claiming that if no one is aware a crime has taken place then the system shouldn't prosecute it. And the answer to that is, obviously. That's like a question of the consequences of human knowledge being limited.
Many people here are celebrating that abortion bans won't be so terrible after all because all women have to do is to be good at hiding the body. We would never take that same attitude for laws against murder of grown people. "Look, the laws against murder aren't such a big deal, all you have to do to get away with it is to hide the body really really well! See?"
They won't be terrible because they voted to make it so.
God damn, how disconnected from the right are you?
Votes make it right? Slavery, concentration camps for Japanese-Americans, no votes for women... I could go on...
Jeff, which law do you think is going to lock women up for life for abortion? Be specific. Which law are you talking about?
Jailed for 12, 16 months enough for you, authoritarian power pig? It only counts if it is for the LIFE of the woman who (supposedly) defies The Will of Der JesseBahnFuhrer?
Chelsea Becker mentioned in The Guardian, “She was jailed for losing her pregnancy.” Happens a LOT, already! Jailed for 12, 16 months, in cases mentioned here. It WILL happen some more, especially if “R” Party gets its way here! Victims are the poor and powerless as usual. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/03/california-stillborn-prosecution-roe-v-wade ... “Say her name”, people!
There's at least two points being made here. I will try to respond to them.
If one takes the pro-life position literally, then every fertilized egg has just as much of a right to life as a fully grown human being, and any suspected "foul play" that occurs to that fertilized egg should be investigated to determine if it is a case of murder, just the same as if the same had happened to a fully grown human being.
Except we don't investigate every single death unless there is evidence of foul play. There's no reason to expect that this would change in these circumstance.
My grandfather died early last year. He died alone in his room, no witnesses. Very suspicious, right? No. No it was not.
There was no investigation into his death because there was no reason to believe that there was foul play. We make these prudential decisions in every single death, in basically all crimes. You are right, this would lead to investigation of foul play. That's a whatever point because that is true of literally every crime. If you're making an argument that there should not be criminal law, make it. I'm will to discuss it.
So the pro-life position appears to be that abortion is murder, but not literal 'murder' murder, just kinda-sorta murder, not murdery enough for the woman to face any legal consequences, but definitely murdery enough to throw the doctors in jail.
There's several versions on this position in the ban all abortions pro-life camp. There's even more once you include people who believe in some restrictions but not a total ban. This is a confusion over pro-life/pro-choice which are insufficiently descriptive for the variety of opinions held.
But yes, many pro-life positions would believe it is murder and that the woman should be held accountable for it. In fact, many folks believe that to deny that fact treats women as morally incompetent, not capable of accountability for their actions. I don't know the NRLC position, I'm sure you can go and read their arguments on it because you bring up an incredibly obvious point, it probably has a stance or at least discussion on the question.
The reason that women ultimately won't likely face any consequence for things legally is because there is little political will to enforce that or pass laws because political agreements that end in legislation do not represent coherent philosophical views but a compromise over a large amount of concerns.
There was no investigation into his death because there was no reason to believe that there was foul play. We make these prudential decisions in every single death, in basically all crimes.
Well, there WAS an investigation, it was just perfunctory.
"How did he die?"
"Of natural causes. In his sleep."
"Okay then. Let's write up the death certificate."
And I am not an anarchist so yes I do believe there should be criminal law. And the vigor in which crimes should be investigated is proportional to the perceived severity of the crime. The crime of murder is towards the top of the list, the crime of shoplifting, not so much. And ANY investigation of any vigor is intrusive and disruptive. We broadly tolerate such intrusive investigations for the larger goal of prosecuting severe crimes, because the cause of justice is more important than a temporary inconvenience (provided all other rights are respected of course).
So when it comes to abortion, the pro-life crowd can't really have it both ways: they can't really claim that abortion is both so severe that it ought to be treated as murder, but yet not so severe that it shouldn't be investigated or prosecuted with the same vigor as murder. Either it is that severe, or it isn't. Make up your mind.
You should really, really think about that last paragraph some more, cutie.
That's still bs, because in the overwhelming majority of cases, women aren't diying it up.
Be careful of that argument because if you're saying the doctor that prescribed the Plan B pills to the mother is an accomplice to a crime, then what does that imply for gun sales?
Not much, unless the person selling the gun knew it would be used for a crime (in which case, yes, they *would* be charged.)
Nothing. Illegal gun sales remain illegal.
Jeff. Are you willing to trust that I am talking with you, right now, in good faith?
Sure
I'm going to make a new post at the bottom of this thread. Let's talk. Just ignore other folks who may or may not attempt to shit talk you or me in the middle of that thread.
Good luck Bucks. He has made up his mind. He won't argue in good faith. His premise alone initiates an argument from bad faith as he misrepresented his opponents arguments at lock step. Further he refuses to address which actual actions/laws he is discussing here, again due to bad faith.
So when it comes to abortion, the pro-life crowd can't really have it both ways: they can't really claim that abortion is both so severe that it ought to be treated as murder, but yet not so severe that it shouldn't be investigated or prosecuted with the same vigor as murder. Either it is that severe, or it isn't. Make up your mind.
Now do euthanasia.
Apparently chemjeff believes every death must be investigated as a homicide because some deaths are homicides. After all, however can we know the difference?
Leftists pretend this nonsense is compelling because they just don't have anything better, but their emotionalism won't let them think the matter through and come to a rational conclusion.
This might not be the same everywhere, but in my state, if someone dies anywhere other than in their home or in a health care facility, there is automatically an investigation to determine if foul play occurred.
Does your state have an especially powerful medical examiners' lobby? Because that law is nuts.
Get Ready for the Post-Emancipation Proclamation Abolitionist Police!
If Blacks are human, there are virtually no limits on government surveillance of Southern Gentlemen in a post-Roe world.
Fucking retarded take, Nick.
Sex Police!
Is this about the Biden regime's new Title IX rules?
No one has asked the salient question: How do apply for one of the Sex Police surveillance jobs?
Like life guard at a nude beech, reality is VERY disappointing.
Get Ready for the Post-Roe Sex Police!
If life begins at conception, there are virtually no limits on government surveillance of women in a post-Roe world.
Really?
Yes Really... Now sit down and take your Prenatal pills like a good "baby" incubator or we'll sick the Gov-Guns on you for endangering and probably trying to kill 'unborn' ?babies?....
No, really. Don't you remember how there were virtually no limits on government surveillance of women in the pre-Roe world? It was literally like living under sharia.
Prolifers now have the power to implement their version of CS Lewis' self righteous dogoodism.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~ C. S. Lewis
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Lewis wasn't covering for babykillers when he penned that.
And hey presto - in walks a self-righteous moralizing busybody
It's always amusing when the moralizing busybodies complain about moralizing busybodies. At least the ones you hate are interested in saving lives though. That seems a better moral stance than claiming to be "unsafe" because of someone's Halloween costume.
Well I'm at least certain that 'a better moral stance' will perpetually meet with the approval of ones conscience (see above quote by CS Lewis)
If opposition to killing people is the moral baseline, you just might not have any, Jfree.
Say, you pissy at the abolitionists and suffragettes too?
Keep lying...
The particularly retarded part about your take, JFree, is that Lewis was arguing against moralism, not morals. A distinction you seem completely unfamiliar with.
Hey, aren't you the moralizing busybody faggot piece of shit who spent the last 30 months insisting on concentration camps and, when they became available, compulsory treatment with experimental therapeutics to deal with a mild respiratory virus? Oh hey look - you are.
Are you suggesting that abortion laws *are* written for the good of the abortionist (i.e., the "victim" of the law to which JFree is trying to make Lewis's statement applty)?
Keep those lies alive... "babykilers"...
Call the cops then; There's been a law against killing babies for years...
If you don't support Fetal Ejection...
U support FORCED Reproduction.
Call the cops then; There's been a law against killing babies for years...
Only some of them.
Jeff, do you want to argue against the Dobbs decision, or do you want to argue for abortion legalization as a general matter?
Honestly? I want to argue that we adopt some sense of fucking humility in general. We CANNOT know what any other person really goes through in their life. So I do not want to hear collectivizations that women who get abortions are just irresponsible sluts. Or, for that matter, that women who get abortions are just oppressed wymyn who have no other choice. Every person is unique and every person ought to be assumed to be the best judge of how best to live their own life. Isn't that one of the huge premises of libertarianism? That government specifically, but no other person broadly, really has the moral authority to peer into anyone else's life and FORCE them to live their lives in some other way? That is not just true of abortion. That is true of almost any issue. The people on the left who want to take away guns, they cannot possibly know what it is like to live in a crime-riddled neighborhood where a woman's only protection of making it home safely every night might be the pistol in her purse. The people on the right who want to ban abortion, they cannot possibly know what it is like to have to make difficult horrible decisions about what to do when faced with an unwanted pregnancy which might not even be the woman's fault. They cannot possibly know. So I want to tell both crowds of authoritarians to fuck off.
If they want to give voluntary advice? Fine. If they want to use FORCE? Hell no.
So specifically when it comes to abortion, I think that "quickening" is probably the fairest standard. Because once "quickening" happens, there is empirical undeniable objective proof that a separate human life has been created. But before that point? Good people of good faith can have an honest disagreement, and when there is no objective proof one way or another, the decision should fall to the woman to decide what is best for her life. Because she is the ONLY one who knows what is best for her life. No one else is. If pro-lifers want to build a "culture of life" to encourage her to keep the child - good for them. If pro-choicers want to build a "culture of empowerment" to encourage her to choose what is best for her life - good for them. But neither one should FORCE their culture onto anyone.
Honestly? I want to argue that we adopt some sense of fucking humility in general. We CANNOT know what any other person really goes through in their life. So I do not want to hear collectivizations that women who get abortions are just irresponsible sluts.
I know that's the argument I've always made. So I guess I'd better start defending that.
And I appreciate it.
I understand the intellectual arguments in favor of libertarianism. But honestly the emotional driving force for me is not discussion of marginal tax rates, but a passionate desire to recognize each person as being an individual endowed with liberty and recognized as such. That each one has a unique life story that we cannot possibly comprehend in total, we NEVER will understand, and the best policy for everyone to live their best lives is to take a hands-off approach and let them live their lives without anyone FORCING them to do otherwise.
Of course, because not everyone is an expert at everything, people will naturally seek advice on what to do. And it is totally fine to give advice that we think is helpful and prudent. But we shouldn't FORCE it on people. We have to trust people to know what is best for themselves and if they make a decision that we don't understand, it is not because "they are stupid", it is because we cannot fully internalize who they are.
Lol. Poor Jeffy really isn’t very bright.
R Mac is projecting AGAIN!!!
Tl;dr Jeffy: why can't we all get along?
Answer: The opinion actually addressed this, those who want abortion in their state will have to change policy. Those who don't won't.
That's as coy an answer as "Roe is settled law."
1) it assumes the next GOP majority in Congress won't legislate bans nationwide thus negating the whole "states rights" ploy.
2) It assumes that state governments are reasonably representative (competitive), which they are not given the state of gerrymandering and voter suppression.
3) The latest Gallup poll says 58% of Americans wanted to keep Roe. Now, roughly the same number will live in states with no access to abortion at all.
4) "tough luck" isn't part of getting along; it's winner-take-all.
I know that you hate that legislatures, but tough shit.
Vote.
If the voters vote to burn the witches... Tough shit for the witches!
1) States' right are not negated. SCOTUS just ruled this is a state issue. If the federal government creates legislation, the states have recourse thru the court base on Dobbs.
2) Complete nonsense
3) It doesn't matter what 58% of the people want when it comes to SCOTUS rulings. SCOTUS is not a representative body. And "no access" is nonsense. They may not have access in their state of residence, but they be able to access abortion in other states where it is legal.
4) "I won. Get over it." - President Barack Obama
I'm gonna help a lot of you out here and let you in on a little secret: shawn_guy is one of shreek's oldest socks. Treat it accordingly.
Winifred Phildo-Dildo is yet ANOTHER Tulpa sock!!!
“Dear Abby” is a personal friend of mine. She gets some VERY strange letters! For my amusement, she forwards some of them to me from time to time. Here is a relevant one:
Dear Abby, Dear Abby,
My life is a mess,
Even Bill Clinton won’t stain my dress,
I whinny seductively for the horses,
They tell me my picnic is short a few courses,
My real name is Mary Stack,
NO ONE wants my hairy crack!
On disability, I live all alone,
Spend desperate nights by the phone,
I found a man named Richard (Dick) Decker,
But he won’t give me his hairy pecker!
Dick Decker’s pecker is reserved for farm beasts,
I am beastly, yes! But my crack’s full of yeasts!
So Dear Abby, that’s just a poetic summary… You can read about the Love of my Life, Richard Decker, here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/10/11/farmers-kept-refusing-let-him-have-sex-with-their-animals-so-he-sought-revenge-authorities-say/#comments-wrapper
Farmers kept refusing to let him have sex with their animals. So he sought revenge, authorities say.
Decker the hairy pecker told me a summary of his story as below:
Decker: “Can I have sex with your horse?”
Farmer: “Lemme go ask the horse.”
Pause…
Farmer: “My horse says ‘neigh’!”
And THAT was straight from the horse’s mouth! I’m not horsin’ around, here, no mare!
So Richard Decker the hairy pecker told me that, apparently never even realizing just HOW DEEPLY it hurt me, that he was all interested in farm beasts, while totally ignoring MEEE!!
So I thought maybe I could at least liven up my lonely-heart social life, by refining my common interests that I share with Richard Decker… I, too, like to have sex with horses!
But Dear Abby, the horses ALL keep on saying “neigh” to my whinnying sexual advances!
Some tell me that my whinnying is too whiny… Abby, I don’t know how to fix it!
Dear Abby, please don’t tell me “get therapy”… I can’t afford it on my disability check!
Now, along with my crack full of yeasts… I am developing anorexia! Some are calling me a “quarter pounder with cheese”, but they are NOT interested at ALL, in eating me!!! They will NOT snack on my crack!
What will I DO, Dear Abby?!?!?
-Desperately Seeking Horses, Men, or ANYTHING, in Fort Worth,
Yours Truly,
R Mac / Mary Stack / Tulpa / Mary’s Period / “.” / Satan
If a Republican Congress enacts a nationwide ban on abortion, the Dems will be in a quandry: Do they fight the law as exceeding the enumerated powers of Congress (which it obviously would be), or do they continue to hold that Congress can do whatever the hell it wants under the guise of "regulating interstate commerce"? I'll have a big bucket of popcorn ready when that happens.
Back yourself up one logical step...
What percentage of Americans in that poll knew what Roe did and what the overturning of Roe does?
It isn't much of an opinion if you don't know what it is.
That too
Cause everyone's pregnancy is property of the State now.....
[WE] mobs rule!!!!
Okay, I am thinking how to respond to your comment. I think you are, generally, not a troll. Though we're all prone to being trollish from time to time, so don't take that as a significant criticism. I am trying to be very neutral here, you know my stance on this, but it's also been a very long day for me so please accord anything I say with at least positive intent. Feel free to disagree, or call out if you think I'm needlessly vague, but please don't seek for bad motives.
So, you want to argue for abortion in general. I believe that is what I take from your statement above. So, let's step back from the question at hand in Dobbs, which is at it's core a question of the explicit constitutionality of the question and whether the right to make that decision lies within the judiciary. There's a lot else caught up here because of the consequences at hand. The core question is as stated, because the constitutionality of a question is the core question of every high court decision. I want to slice this very thin, because I am going to attempt to steelman your position.
Here I go:
The world is inherently messy and one in which each of us, every single day, makes many decisions. There is no known objective answer to these decisions as the facts differ, often times in subtle but in important ways, for each case. Further, each individual has different preferences they optimize for. Some prefer safety, some prefer future reward, some prefer the possibility of instant gain. Some prefer family; some prefer art; some prefer drinking. We do not have access to a objective morality. Even Christians believe that an objective reality exists, but our ability to grasp it in its totality is limited, and often quite limited. They would say that God may know it, but we can only grasp at it.
Each individual has inherent worth though, and because of that, we can comfortably say that people are due some protections, in particular we form a government to provide some amount of protection from violence. But, the government is a collection of people as well, and so they too should be strongly limited in their ability to exert decision making upon any specific individual as well. This puts us in a place where we attempt to draw the line of government authority as tightly as possible. There are certain things that are so strongly agreed upon (such as that one adult should not be able to inflict violence on another unconsenting adult) that it is reasonable to concede some authority to government to deal with that.
The threshold for that agreement should be incredibly high though, and in cases where it's less then, let's say 90% agreement (set the threshold to whatever you feel comfortable), the government should be actively disallowed from enforcing any viewpoint upon an individual at all.
Abortion puts into play a tension between the rights of two individuals. They are inherently difficult to extricate. But because the mother is undoubtedly a full human with rights, and the question of humanity for the child is often in bitter disagreement, the government should remain neutral on the question and leave it to the culture to deal with the issue on a person-by-person basis.
Jeff: What do you think about my attempt to steelman your argument?
Also, I do think this may be contentious to you:
So, you want to argue for abortion in general. I believe that is what I take from your statement above. So, let's step back from the question at hand in Dobbs, which is at it's core a question of the explicit constitutionality of the question and whether the right to make that decision lies within the judiciary. There's a lot else caught up here because of the consequences at hand. The core question is as stated, because the constitutionality of a question is the core question of every high court decision.
There is a procedural question we have here. We have a system of government, and how should it function. There's a lot to dig through on this question as well about appropriate procedures in the system of government we have in the US, how the government should orient itself, and just a whole lot that often goes unsaid in these types of judicial discussions. Feel free to say if you want to discuss that question. I will ask you bring it up another day though as it's getting late and I'd prefer to discuss the what I wrote above because that took awhile to write and I have to walk my dog in like an hour.
If there is no clear unambiguous answer, really, government should get out of the way.
I trust women to make decisions that they believe are in their best interest.
I trust doctors to make sound professional ethical decisions on what they think is best for their patients.
For many of these questions there is no objective right or wrong answer. (Belief in an objective morality is not the same as a belief that there is an objectively moral solution for every question ever posed.) So for situations in which it is unclear whether there is a separate human life that has formed, that is bestowed with the same natural rights as you or me, I will trust doctors and women to decide what is best for themselves. After that point, THEN, there is a third human life that must be considered, and the duty of parents is to care for their children.
BUCS, I think you are the closest person to an honest broker around here (including myself, really), so I appreciate your efforts.
Jeff: What do you think about my attempt to steelman your argument?
I think you are in the ballpark. But there are a few differences.
First: A belief in objective morality is not inconsistent with a belief that each individual should be free to live his/her own life as he/she sees fit. I do believe that there are objective standards of right and wrong on some level. But I am not willing to force everyone to adopt those standards.
Second:
Abortion puts into play a tension between the rights of two individuals.
Well, yes and no. In my view, before the "quickening" (or whatever other objective measure you wish to devise that unambiguously demonstrates that a separate human life has been created), we are not even sure that a separate individual bestowed with rights even exists. So before that point, it's not a conflict between rights of two individuals, it is instead a matter of choosing the rights of the individual that we know unambiguously does exist (the woman) over the "rights" of the fetus that may or may not exist as an individual bestowed with rights.
A belief in objective morality is not inconsistent with a belief that each individual should be free to live his/her own life as he/she sees fit.
Indeed - hence "judge not," and "vengeance is Mine" - there's a long history of Christian moral thinking - William of Ockham was big on this - that there is objective morality, but only God sees it, which is why you, as an absurdly limited individual, have no right to judge others - that's God's job.
Is endeavoring to stop an attempted murder of a born person in progress a form a judgment that man should not engage in?
You're free to interpret the sayings of Jesus however you choose.
What about the stopping of the attempted crucifixion of a perfectly innocent man?
I think you are the closest person to an honest broker around here (including myself, really), so I appreciate your efforts.
Lol.
So before that point, it's not a conflict between rights of two individuals, it is instead a matter of choosing the rights of the individual that we know unambiguously does exist (the woman) over the "rights" of the fetus that may or may not exist as an individual bestowed with rights.
Some great circular logic here. We know the fetus exists. We know the fetus has a distinct genetic code. We know the fetus is growing and aging. We know it is alive.
Please as an "honest broker" define an individual that excludes those facts we know.
How do you define a fetus or a baby as not an individual despite science telling us exactly those things.
If we all just agree an unborn baby has no rights it’s all very simple, see?
That is exactly his argument.
Here, Jesse, learn to read:
the fetus that may or may not exist as an individual bestowed with rights
So your position is, as long as there is a lack of clarity on whether a fetus has personhood, we should just assume it doesn't, and thus assume it is not entitled to rights, and defer all rights to the entity we are certain has personhood, even to the objective harm of the one in question?
If we cannot say for certain what the best course of action is, then we should defer to the individual(s) most directly involved in that decision to do what they think is best.
So, yes, then? If there is a lack of clarity on "personhood," the default should be to deny personhood, even if doing so does objective harm to the individual in question?
Leave the decision up to the *best judgment* of the people most directly involved. That should be the default.
So yes.
Please just be honest for 2.5 seconds and say that you are okay with "no personhood" default in situations where there is a lack of clarity.
Whether you are personally denying personhood or someone else is, it's the same thing.
So when Richard Kretschmar wrote to the Führer, explaining how his severely disabled (blind, missing an arm and a leg, and probably mentally deficient) son Gerhard was not living a life worth living, the Führer did the right thing by ordering that the authorities should implement the best judgment of the people most directly involved--the parents who would otherwise be saddled with the burden of raising "This Monster" (as his father described him) and have Gerhadt humanely euthanized.
Now do pets and farm animals.
What do pets and farm animals have to do with personhood?
Hey, abortion is not an issue for Science. Science applies only to public policy regarding selected diseases.
That's "The Science", you bigot!
because the mother is undoubtedly a full human with rights, and the question of humanity for the child is often in bitter disagreement, the government should remain neutral on the question and leave it to the culture to deal with the issue on a person-by-person basis
Not speaking for Jeff, but this is essentially exactly my position, in a nutshell. Man steeled!
You make the assumption that a zygote or a fetus is an "individual." I think you need to clarify that. Legally, it's not a person. If you examine how law deals with miscarriages or the murder of a pregnant woman, you'll see that it doesn't see the fetus as a legal person. The history of our country and Western culture in general doesn't really see a fetus as something with full human rights. You elevate the fetus to be equal to the mother without comment. I think that needs explanation. In every state that passed a near total ban on abortions recently, all of them make an exception for the life of the mother. So the law already weighs the two differently, even where they ban abortions for rape and incest.
I don't understand your division of "the government" and "the culture." For starters, any government is likely to represent some diversity of culture within any given locality--even Salt Lake city is a mix of races, religions, sexualities, etc. So what is "the culture?" Are you meaning "the majority" where you live and isn't that "the government" if we assume fair representation is the norm? If "the government" hands it back to "the people" to decide, that's disingenuous since they are one and the same. So it's the government either way.
The rights of the mother and her fetus are not "inherently difficult to extricate." The mother hasn't lost her legal rights and the fetus has none because it isn't a person. The bitter disagreement over its humanity likely has high correlation with belief in a deity/ies and what that deity's religion believes. It's a religious view and not an objective one. The religious disagreement may be keenly important to the adherents of that faith but it isn't universal and their faith doesn't imbue the disagreement with validity. But when the government is made up of the majority culture, religious law gains government force, which is where the judiciary is supposed to step in to preserve civil rights for the minority in our society. (In theory but rarely in practice.)
I think your steelman still has a few stray bits of straw.
It's also important to discuss the state of equal rights for women in this country along with the historic arguments against abortion that largely focused on "loose women" stereotypes rather than fetal rights. Having a discussion about the balance of rights between a fetus and a woman without recognizing that the woman starts the discussion at a disadvantage relative to the majority male legislatures and judiciary would be irresponsible. By example, women couldn't get credit without their husband's permission prior to the 1970s and their husbands could legally rape them. The last state to outlaw marital rape was in 1993.
Actually shreek, if you weren't an incredibly stupid pedophile with no adult reasoning abilities, you would probably know that felony murder applies to unborn children in some jurisdictions, and several states actually have explicit provisions regarding the legal status of the unborn child if its mother is murdered. See it turns out that the United States of America is not a monarchy, and each state makes its own laws and regulations. Get this: Sometimes those laws and regulations are even *different* depending on which state you live in! People with IQs over 65 have been dealing with these issues for about 5,000 years, and we've pretty well resolved what to do with dead people and the people who kill them. It's been kind of a big deal just for business reasons alone.
This is what's called a "non-sequitur", shreek. You would have learned about that in high school if you had attended. A "non-sequitur" is where a conclusion does not follow from its premise. To be fair, this is more like begging the question since you made an assertion without any evidence or an argument, but stay with me. First of all, there has never been a time in this country when a woman was able to obtain credit only with the permission of her husband. Never. Not once. Not anywhere. Not at any time. Because women were typically not in the work force prior to the 1960s, banks generally did not give them loans or credit because they generally had no income and it was considered a "bad risk" to lend money to a woman who would not be employed to pay it off. This was a market practice based on creditworthiness, not a law passed by the patriarchal legislature to deny wamen their obamamoney you paint chip eating pants on head abject fucking retard. With those facts having been stated and gotten out of the way, your fictitious woman's imagined inability to obtain financial credit in the 1970s would not be an example of a woman being at a disadvantage when merely having a discussion about fetal rights, because those two things do not have anything to do with one another. If women didn't need you voting for them and getting credit for them, I'm certain they don't need you to infantilize them by suggesting they are too stupid and powerless to make cogent arguments before legislative bodies. On the other hand, how do you square your support for those marital rape laws with your apoplectic histrionic pearl clutching about sex police? Should the sex police only show up after the lad's put a ring on her finger? Should the sex police observe all acts of coitus to make sure they are consensual? Surely, if Arkansas banning abortions after 15 weeks is the slippery slope that will lead to a law enforcement surveillance drone in every American woman's uterus; and surely, if Texas banning sodomy (defined in law typically as oral *and/or* anal penetration, regardless of the sex and/or gender of the participants) was the slippery slope that led to the mass extermination of gay men in those dark days of... 2004; and if Florida telling pre-K teachers that they cannot discuss anal masturbation with their students was the slippery slope that led to the reenactment of the Comstock laws; then surely, SURELY, laws regarding how married people are allowed to have sex are just as certainly and just as seriously an infringement on the right to marital and personal privacy, no? That's leaving aside, of course, that yet again, it was never legal to rape one's wife anymore than it was ever legal to rape anyone. There was a time when social convention made it difficult to put on a convincing prosecution of a married man for the rape of his spouse because of social conventions about sex, so he simply wouldn't be charged. By 1993 when the last of the 100% superfluous, redundant "marital rape" laws was passed, that was certainly not the case. No new legislation needed to be created. Rape was already illegal in all 50 states. Kinda like the lynching law we just passed a few months ago despite every act involved with a lynching already being illegal. If you're going to pick little cherries out of your flaming homosexual pedophile asshole, you had better clean them up a little bit better than this before you put them on display you absolute fucking moron.
"Legally, it's not a person."
This is the messed up part.
What's funny is going back and reading antebellum democrats... the party's arguments haven't changed much at all in 160 years
It's really nothing but talking in circles to avoid saying what abortion really is:
Killing an individual in order to avoid personal hardship, distress, or inconvenience.
If their position is that it's acceptable to kill an individual to avoid personal hardship, distress, or inconvenience, they should be ready to defend that position on its merits instead of trying to justify it with these types of contortions.
But the position is indefensible. If you have to create euphemisms for your actions in order to justify them to yourself or others, then you know your actions are fundamentally wrong.
Bingo
Bad analogy. Ante-bellum Democrats never denied that blacks were human beings. They just denied that being a human being necessarily was linked with the right not to be enslaved. (If Virginia didn't hold Nat Turner to be a human being, they wouldn't have bothered putting him on trial for "conspiring to rebel and making insurrection" (just like the 1/6 Republicans!), but would have simply killed him like a rabid dog.)
Every person is unique and every person ought to be assumed to be the best judge of how best to live their own life.
Please don't make me pull in all of your comments referring to "the elites" such as how parents should defer their child's education to teachers... This is not what you believe as you often attack others who disagree with government experts. From education to health such as with covid. This is not what you actually believe based on your actions at this very site. You attack federalist principles constantly, advocating for centralized planning. You advocate for globalist rules for fuck's sake. You don't actually believe in individuality based on what you support politically. I mean you were just ranting against people having the right to self defense in the 2a threads! You ranted against people for not getting covid vaccines. You dismissed every single fucking doctors that you disagreed with or explained errors in the government's covid narratives. You supported forced quarantines in Australia as not a big deal. You have never believed what you just wrote here.
And here Jesse does not understand the difference between "offering advice" and "coercion".
Yes jeff. Use of government force is coercion you dishonest shithead. The things you advocate for is government intusiom.
Intrusion*
Jesse, your only role here is to antagonize me and seek attention trolling me. It literally does not matter what I say, you will object to whatever it is, making up lies if necessary, in order to continue the trolling and the attention-whoring.
I am having rational discussions with all sorts of people in this thread. You continue with your tired schtick of personal attacks, making the topic one of personality instead of issues, and general asshole behavior.
Seriously Jesse, fuck off. You are not wanted here.
Here is but one example:
I mean you were just ranting against people having the right to self defense in the 2a threads!
This is a lie. I did not rant against anyone having the right to self defense in the 2A discussions. You know it is a lie but you don't care. Your object here is to troll and make up shit about me to project your caricature onto me.
Fuck off and let adults have responsible conversations.
FDR just politely asked all of those stupid yellow swine to go camp out at the Los Angeles Fair Grounds for a couple of years. Jeez gosh, don't you know the difference between offering advice and coercion?
You mean like Ashli Babbitt? Where’s your fvckin sense of humility?
Also, Sex Police is an awesome band name.
We've already had The Sex Pistols and The Police. It would just sound like the world's whiniest, faggiest boomer rock supergroup.
MOAR HYPERBOLE PLEZ!
What happened during the pre-Roe era?
Upper middle class white women had to buy lots of coathangers.
No, upper middle class white women flew to New York for abortions. Poor and minority women used coathangers.
Its totes libertarian to agitate for a supreme court decision that used Buck v Bell as its basis.
It's not quite accurate to claim that the opinion in Roe "used Buck v. Bell as its basis." The opinion quoted Buck approvingly (along with Jacobson v. Massachusetts), but to support the proposition that there were limits on the right of privacy--IOW, your right to privacy allows you to get an abortion, but doesn't protect you against mandatory sterilization or vaccination. (How would Blackmun determine where the right to privacy applies and where it doesn't? Good question. Probably on the basis of how the Wise Men (and, later, Women) on the Court feel about the action in question: abortion, good; anti-mandatory-sterilization bad.)
If this is what you really believe, Nick, then I suppose you should CHOOSE YOUR LEGISLATORS MORE CAREFULLY, YOU FUCKING RETARD.
This is a recipe not for limited government but for one that must, in the name of protecting life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, surveil and track all acts of potential procreation.
No need to read any further, of course it is untrue that this must happen. Nick is stupidly playing the game of defining your opposition into the most extreme possibility in order to more easily attack it. Standard hysteria. It's a shame to see libertarians adopt the left's tactics they criticize whenever they are used against themselves. But any port in a storm, right?
Based on history, these sorts of morality laws tend to be enforced unequally and usually against some disfavored minority. Surveillance won't be universal; it will be selective.
Any bets on when the first private organization will turn on an AI that harvests data from various marketing firms (Google, Facebook, Apple, etc) in an attempt to identify patters that indicate likelihood of being pregnant and considering an abortion?
Imagine the haul they could get in states like Texas that have a $10K bounty for each woman you find and caregiver/assistant you sue.
I'll happily put the over/under at the heat death of the universe, and you can pussy out like a faggot and never pay up just like you did the last time you spectacularly lost a bet, shreek.
Maybe we should wait until the 200 or so crisis pregnancy centers that have been burned to the ground, bombed, vandalized and looted by unhinged psychopaths like yourself have at least gotten their insurance check before we start weeping too deeply for the poor benighted black women in whose name it is your duty to be perpetually offended.
Oh also, do red flag laws! It's the same principle, only red flag laws actually exist, so it should be even easier for you!
It's rare for people on different sides of the abortion debate to acknowledge the other side has a point, but such honesty would be welcome, especially now.
I do love that Nick adds this, as if he's the reasonable person asking seeking compromise after creating his idiotic strawman attack.
MoveOn/ActBlue 101. They've been doing the same shit for 30 fucking years now. 30 years.
"I'm not saying everyone who disagrees with me is a racist he-man woman hater Christian fundamentalist insurrectionist militiaman who wants to see every woman on earth chained to the kitchen sink with 45 babies suckling from her worn out teats, I'm just saying everyone on society would get along a lot better if someone would just rid me of this turbulent priest!"
Firstly: Drug testing welfare moochers *is* limited government. No one has a right to largesse from the State. Every conceivable program to limit the number of people, (and corporations) who receive unearned money from the State is a first order moral good.
Secondly: A tune to liven up your evening.
Roe Roe Roe your boats,
Gently down the hill,
Now you'll have to keep the kid,
Should've took the pill.
I guess you guys aren't ready for that, but your kids will love it.
Firstly: Drug testing welfare moochers *is* limited government.
Yes yes, we know.
THEY should have the heavy hand of government shoved down their throats.
YOU, however, should be free from government tyranny to live your life.
Conservatives can tell others what to do.
Others cannot tell conservatives what to do.
Not receiving money confiscated by the state from others is having the heavy hand of government shoved down your throat?
Hey remember before sarcasmic lost that last few brain cells and used to compulsively reply in every thread regardless of whether it was even tangentially related to the topic or not his catchphrase "Not giving is taking, and not taking is giving"? It was times like these when it would have been appropriate.
Yeah, but now he’s full on team Lying Jeffy, so he would never say that to his lover.
Not giving you a monthly stipend to sit on your obese lard ass eating Cheetos and downing 4 gallons of Mountain Dew every night while you troll 12 year old kids on Xbox Live isn't not having the heavy hand of government shoved down your throat, fat fuck.
On the other hand, rounding people up in actual concentration camps because they have the sniffles, sending police to disable their vehicles while they attempt to attend religious services, having armed guards at every hospital entrance to make sure no one sneaks past the security and visits their dying loved one in hospice, and making their employment conditional upon receiving an experimental drug... THAT was the heavy hand of government being shoved down people's throats. Remember that important distinction you drew about "offering advice" and "coercion"? Telling you to hit the treadmill and not be a fat fucking piece of shit loser filling his fat fucking triple chin with taxpayer-bought jelly donuts is offering advice. Tearing 6 month old children (are they children after 6 months out of the MagicVag™ or still clumps of cells?) out of the arms of their parents, tying them to their seats, and diverting a flight with hundreds of other people on it because the 6 month old kid couldn't tolerate being partially asphyxiated by a cloth smothering their face is coercion. See how easy?
Don't you know? Not letting progressives impose their vision of doctrinal behavior, economic control, and preferred speech is totally fascism.
LOL
Well played
Meanwhile
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1540489099727044608?t=O3rd1D8Zu5Rf_hF2Lz2_4w&s=19
Journalist Jonathan M. Katz appears to call for deadly violence by invoking Haiti after #RoeVWade was overturned by the US Supreme Court.
Abortion is illegal in all of Haiti.
Rachel Bean, of Minneapolis, is using her Twitter account to express support for violence and arson.
"Do not be peaceful!"
A Minnesota far-left account urges violence over #RoevWade.
"Violence is the only language they understand, & it’s time we start speaking it." Far-left YouTuber Carlos Maza, who comes from a family with a multi-million dollar mansion & yacht empire, calls for violence over #RoevWade.
Many accounts on Twitter are urging for the assassination of black Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas because of #RoevWade.
.@heraldscotland's writer at large Neil Mackay, of Glasgow, says he would carry out a terrorist arson attack on the U.S. if he was a woman there.
"Burn down the Supreme Court"
Andrew Tarantola, a senior reporter for @Engadget, calls for a terrorist attack on the U.S. Supreme Court.
"...burn the motherf—ker down"
Author Lauren Hough expresses support for those who carry out arson attacks.
Writer Brandon Taylor urges arson attacks.
Jonathan Lovitz, senior vice president of the @NGLCC and a diversity & inclusion advocate, calls for arson attacks on conservative LGBT group @LogCabinGOP.
Author Lauren Hough again urges violence and says others should fear "us." Terrorists & terrorist groups believe in using fear and violence (or the threat of violence) to intimidate civilian populations into giving into demands.
[Links]
How cute, Nick thinks we had privacy rights yesterday.
You're not truly free unless you're free to knock up an underage girl and have Medicaid pay for her abortion.
You're being close-minded, you transphobe. I can knock up underaged boys now, too.
That would be underaged birthing persons you bigot.
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1540517723377213440?t=Nk10hol58IDXKoQCiBXZ5g&s=19
Los Angeles: Pro-abortion protesters shut down the freeway & use sticks to attack drivers who won’t stop. #RoeVWade
Video by @AnthonyCabassa_:
At the pro-abortion demonstration in Los Angeles, they held a large sign of a guillotine and shut down the freeway.
[Video]
Is this supposed to convince me of anything?
Because I'm not sure what they're trying to accomplish here. They're definitely not attempting to positively influence anyone.
It's called political terrorism.
You're not supposed to be convinced, you're supposed to be shut up.
It's fun being able to read The Gulag Archipelago as a choose-your-own-adventure story.
But -- it's downtown LA. Sacramento doesn't give a shit if you go to a clinic in LA and get your uterus scraped fortnightly.
Shut up about what?
All they are doing is making people hate them. Well, hate them more.
At the pro-abortion demonstration in Los Angeles, they held a large sign of a guillotine and shut down the freeway.
Gee, sure sounds like "legitimate political discourse" to me! Right, Team Red?
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/04/us/politics/republicans-jan-6-cheney-censure.html
https://twitter.com/KatieDaviscourt/status/1540507597102469120?t=lZrBIKJ-RuCL9Zb75c91Tg&s=19
The current temperature in Seattle is sunny skies and 75 degrees, yet the group of Antifa have umbrellas. They must be preparing for rain...or something else.
HAPPENING NOW: A crowd of thousands of pro-abortion activists that were protesting at a different location have joined the group at the federal building.
They started chanting, “Abolish the court.”
There is minimal @SeattlePD presence at the protest despite the nationwide calls for violence—staffing levels can’t keep up.
An unhinged protester tried to deploy pepper spray on two peaceful pro-life protesters but the deployment failed.
I asked this Antifa militant why he was wearing a gas mask and he couldn’t give me an answer.
VIOLENCE INCREASING: Antifa militants attempt to shatter windows but security prevented them and they ran back into the crowd.
I’m keeping my distance for safety reasons.
BREAKING: Seattle Antifa attack pro-life female, tackle her to the ground and pepper spray her. #RoeVsWade
[Video]
https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1540473889737781248?t=EMmxuGBhfNgLNdNIvqgs_w&s=19
Please don’t forget about all the non-women who get abortions and have uteruses, too.
[Video]
https://www.theroot.com/the-reversal-of-roe-v-wade-is-an-attack-on-black-bodie-1849107646?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=dlvrit&utm_content=theroot
The fact that the black population has been stagnant for a century because of the successful efforts of eugenicists like Margaret Sanger to make sure that 40% of all abortions in this country result in the death of a black baby is a celebration of black bodies in a way, I guess. Just like any funeral.
The only attack on 'black bodies' (good grief, could you come up with any more of a dehumanizing term for black people? WTH?) has been the last 50 years or so during which the abortion clinics have killed more black 'bodies' than were alive in the US at the time of the passage of Roe. If Roe had not been passed, the number of 'black bodies' living today would be a much larger number and larger percentage of the population.
"PeAcEfUl PrOtEsTeRs!"
https://twitter.com/lyzl/status/1540495806217732103?t=PW42-37yI6t-2c8IIPMhCA&s=19
Here is some more video of the incident at the protest. Protestors are sharing the video and pictures with me.
[Video]
Hey cytotoxic (dba chemjeff, de oppresso liber), would the police be justified in blowing away these people for trespassing? Just want to make sure I keep track.
Not sure if this one is pro abortion or anti school choice.
Maybe both.
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1540548151337451521?t=jJ9uwJFuCypT3BVHITRHmg&s=19
Two journalists on the ground confirm the protesters were pounding on the windows. Lawmaker Wendy Rogers says the mob was threatening to break them. #Insurrection
When did we acquire privacy and surveillance rights to be violated?
Listen, we had the only kind of privacy that matters. The privacy to hire a physician to rip apart a fetus with forceps, ensuring the integrity of the brain, lungs, kidneys, and livers for sale on the research market, and then scrape it out piece by piece from the battered remains of a woman's uterus. Sure, the federal government has been spying 24/7 in real time on literally every form of communication of all 320 million people who live in the United States for 20 years, and sure, the cops can track you without a warrant, and sure, the cops can jail you without trial for 2 years for misdemeanor trespassing, and sure, the cops can steal all of your cash if you go traveling around with it or do something even more foolish like try to put it into a bank, and sure, the cops can send a SWAT team to your home in fucking Alaska to execute a no-knock warrant to search for Nancy Pelosi's laptop because you bear a vague resemblance to a woman in a blurry still frame from surveillance footage at the US capitol weeks earlier, and sure, the federal government is trying to pass legislation to make encryption illegal, and sure, the entire US intelligence apparatus spent 6 years colluding with the DNC to use a fake oppo dossier to spy on dozens of private citizens, including candidate, president-elect, president, and former-president Trump, and sure, 100% private companies who out of the pure beneficence in their hearts allow us to use the digital equivalent of their living room to exchange ideas can and do arbitrarily and capriciously enforce or not enforce their rules and terms of service to stifle the political speech of people they don't like, and sure, you have to show your photo ID and be entered into a state database to fill any prescription at a licensed pharmacy or even to buy over the counter cold medicine. But don't you understand what is at stake here?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!? Stupid women when they get knocked up by stupid men because they were collectively too stupid to master the art of swallowing a pill or unrolling a latex tube might, possibly, depending on how the legislation and further court challenges shake out over the next decade or so, have to travel to a different state if they somehow didn't realize they were pregnant until 8 months after the fact!!!!!!!!!!!!! IF YOU DON'T CLUTCH THOSE PEARLS I WILL CLUTCH THEM FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Life DOES begin at coneption. True statement
FedGof have NO authority tomeddle in people's private affairs, That is a MORAL issue not a criminal issue.
There are exceptions for things like sexually abusing children, and should be. But"sex police"? Not right. WHERE do fedGov think they uncover THAT issue, in some umbrae and penumbrae buried somewhere in the basement of the SCOTUS building?
Now if one party is forcing themselves upon the other, that is assault, and needs to be prosecuted as such. Just as if one beat the other with a baseball bat. Actioinable. But that goes whether both are male, both are female, or each is one of the other.
Sex police?
The concept of asset forfeiture just got a lot more interesting.
I'd like to seize her assets, knowwhatimsayin'?
Oh, irony. Abortion fans, who skew strongly left, might be worried about intrusive government? But only regarding pregnancy, and not the thousands of other issues they eagerly demand government to intrude on?
The old bumper sticker is still largely true.
Republicans: regulate nothing except abortion.
Democrats: regulate everything except abortion.
Republicans: regulate nothing except abortion.
Except Republicans are throwing off their low-regulation roots.
Here is Josh Hawley celebrating the decision:
https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article262849238.html
He said the political realignment would mean that social conservatives would no longer have to work with fiscal conservatives in politics, resulting in a more populist, conservative Republican Party — which is also the lane of the Republican Party he currently occupies.
So he is thrilled that he is no longer going to have to work with those icky fiscal conservatives.
Yup, some Republicans can be just as retarded as some Democrats. But the ironic contradiction here is owned by Team Blue.
I'M MOST CERTAINLY NOT RETARDED! IN FACT, I'M A VERY STABLE, AND A VERY GOOD-LOOKING, GENIUS (I KNOW A LOT OF BIG WORDS, YOU KNOW), AS IS MY COMMIE BOYFRIEND VLAD. ALTHOUGH I STILL DO HAVE A SLIGHT EDGE OVER HIM. NO ONE IS, OR EVER WILL BE, AS GREAT AS I AM!
Weird.
All we've done is go back to pre-1973.
Was there an attempt at ubiquitious surveillance then? No?
This sounds exactly like the people screaming about Net Neutrality - screaming about all the bad things that would happen if ISP's weren't forbidden from prioritizing traffic. Thing was, the ISP's *weren't forbidden from prioritizing traffic* and they weren't doing those horrible things.
Was there an attempt at ubiquitious surveillance then
The technology didn't exist then for the ubiquitous surveillance we're under now. Now, Facebook knows you're pregnant before you do.
https://techland.time.com/2012/02/17/how-target-knew-a-high-school-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-parents/
Ummm...
https://twitter.com/BNNBreaking/status/1540778428798234624?t=alw9AU-S1-oU38b-PQBWNg&s=19
BREAKING: The Pentagon has stated that any abortion laws enacted as a result of the Supreme Court's decision will not be recognized.
So, no drone strikes?
About the sort of dreck I expected to see from the Faux Libertarians at Reason. Not even a peep about protecting the basic right of life and right to not be aggressed against for the baby in the womb. Instead firm support for the woman and the doctor violating the NAP. So glad that Mises is taking over the party and kicking you fakes out.
Imagine a libertarian being upset that we've gone back to 1973 and allowed states to make their own laws. But of course, you don't know what libertarianism actually is. You just want woke liberalism with some conservative economics.
So, Libertarians primarily believe in states rights? Who knew. Then you must think slavery should have been up to the stars and now must be pissed that the court threw out NYs 100 year old law on guns the other day.
This is a false analogy. There is a constitutional principle at stake with slavery: are all human beings created equal, endowed by the Creator with some inalienable rights among which are the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness? If they are, as the Declaration states, then slavery cannot be tolerated. And yes, I am aware of the 3/5 compromise which was morally repugnant and plain wrong, just like the Dredd Scott vs Sanford decision, which was struck down the right way: by adopting 13th and 14th amendments. Today's SCOTUS decision can also be struck down by enacting a constitutional amendment granting the right to abortion to every birthing person or, even broader, to every menstruating person. Roe vs Wade was legislating from the bench. Roe vs. Wade invented the right to abortion which doesn't exist in the constitution. The right way to enact that right is to amend the constitution, not to have 9 unelected people in black robes invent the right by fiat. And, as constitution says, every right not enumerated in the constitution is reserved for the states or the people. But not the federal government.
"And, as constitution says, every right not enumerated in the constitution is reserved for the states or the people. But not the federal government."
Women are people Groucho, or at least have been in modern times if not in 1868 which is what the court tried to set the clock back to. Human zygotes and fetuses before quickening are not people.
I hope you realize that it was the slave states who wanted to count slaves as full people, because that gave them more political power. The anti-slavery position was not to count slaves as part of the population at all.
Well, now you do.
Life begins at the moment of conception? Why wait so long? I believe that every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great, if a sperm is wasted God gets quite irate. Life imitates Monty Python.
Reason is going to have to change its name to "Emote".
FIRST OFF, MY FELLOW CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN CULTISTS HERE, THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR HIJACKING THE LABEL OF "LIBERTARIANISM" AND REASON'S COMMENTS SECTIONS, THUS MAKING LIBERTARIANISM SYNONYMOUS WITH CONSERVATISM AND REPUBLICANISM! YOU PEOPLE TRULY WARM THE COCKLES OF MY DISEASED FATTY HEART. NOW, AS FOR THIS RECENT ROE VERSUS WADE DECISION WHICH I OBVIOUSLY HELPED TO FACILITATE, THERE IS A NEGATIVE SIDE, AND THERE IS A POSITIVE SIDE. ON THE FORMER, MORE NON-PURE WHITE MINORITIES AND LIBTARDS (OF ALL STRIPES) WILL BE BORN; NOT GOOD AT ALL. HOWEVER, ON THE LATTER, OUR PURE WHITE RACE WILL ALSO BE PRESERVED. YAY! OH, AND DON'T FORGET TO MAGA (BY DONATING MONEY TO ME), AND GRAB THEM BY THE PUSSY; WOMEN LOVE THAT KIND OF STUFF!
So effing what? These are all state issues, leave them to the states. Not every state in the union (or country in the world) needs to conform to your or my personal preferences.
I'm a gay, married man. I really couldn't care less if a bunch of US states outlaw gay marriage or gay sex. If they have majorities for that, I wouldn't want to live there anyway.
A libertarian is going to let the government decide when life begins? WTF? Using your logic, we could say that the crime of murder doesn't start until the victim is 18. Or 21. Or 14. Or whatever. Teenage brains are still soft and developing, right? If a zygote isn't living, what exactly is it doing? Do women have suspended animation chambers in their uteruses? You can only make abortion a "right" by denying that it's murder. Or, again using your logic, murder is unenumerated in the Constitution, so it must be a right. Once again 'reason' demonstrates that it's a disgusting front for the worst kind of libterdism.
I could give a darn about abortion rights.
What really pisses me off is the terrible abortion arguments. For example Nick's latest above. Slippery sloping and it's not even ski season.
"OMG, the SC overturned a bad ruling and allowed states to regulate abortion via representative legislature or popular vote and now they are going to set up cameras in our bedrooms to see if we are having anal sex"
Sure Nick...you're sounding like AOC.
You need a doctor's consultation to get an abortion pill. It's not OTC.
Plan B is not the same thing. That's a next day thing if something went wrong (busted condom or you were drunk and stupid). But it is not if, say, you're on depo and don't find out you've gotten pregenant anyway for a month or two.
Not arguing merits of the case or abortion, just clarifying.
And, I might also say that you're unusually sanguine about the notion of government not invading your privacy. Top to bottom, governments are littered with people who want more info, and have zero regard for your privacy, or the law, or the constitution. Remember when James Comey was saying "Americans have no right to privacy?" That fucker is emblematic of everyone who thinks they know better than you, and doesn't give a shit if they violate your rights, people at all level of governance.
Sans very well known court protection there are a lot of people who definitely think they know better, so it is possible they might try to snoop on private matters. See the medical records laws on Obamacare, or banking regulations -- Biden was very seriously pushing to look at every transaction after $600 in everyone's bank account -- and the reporting standard from 50 years ago isn't indexed so instead of reporting what would be the equivalent of $75K in adjusted dollars, they still report transactions at $10K, constantly narcing on small business ownersand people who have done nothing wrong.
The argument in the above article is stupid, and pure conjecture. But the government does do ridiculous, invasive, and unconstitutional shit all the time. "Secure in their person, houses, papers, and effects" -- what's more personal than someone's financial or medical records? Most of these people don't care.
I love all of the feminists vowing a sex strike with whom sex is not remotely a risk.
Dudes after long prison sentences would be like "I think I'll pass"
But the government does do ridiculous, invasive, and unconstitutional shit all the time.
But this decision has nothing to do with the government's invasiveness. This isn't permitting the government to suddenly violate the fourth amendment and do random searches for signs of aborted pregnancies. To the extent that government snooping is a big problem, it's a big problem completely independent of this ruling.
"Plan B is not the same thing. That's a next day thing if something went wrong (busted condom or you were drunk and stupid)."
Do I have a right to a Plan B for casino losses, if I was drunk and stupid the night before?
If these women were trusted to make decisions in their best interests THEY'D HAVE CHOSEN TO USE CONTRACEPTION.
Spoken by someone who insists on using state force to tell other people the "correct" way to live.
I don't see why deliberately depriving her of her baby can't be considered a crime in itself without endowing the fetus with personhood.
Overturning Roe v Wade had absolutely ZERO change on any subject past 'viability'...
Hey, responsibility is oppression, and must in some way be sexist. And speaking of sex, any laws or denial of resources that might make people refrain from sex must be totally christian-fascist, right?
I suspect that many women who seek abortions were living lives in chaos that contributed to the unwanted pregnancy happening, and subsequent mental illness is more likely the result of their dissolute lives than the abortion itself.
Well, is it a clump of cells that belongs to the mother like a pair of shoes, or is it a future baby?
It's an ongoing process. Be patient.
How about someone who wants people to own up to their actions and accept personal responsibility?
Do you want to use state coercion to force everyone to accept *your idea* of what constitutes "personal responsibility"?
You mean taking the jab? Or shutting down the coal plant?
Should government mandate vaccines? No.
Should government forcibly close down coal plants? No.
Next question?
I would bet my net worth that even the hardest-core pro abortion types know how babies are made.
"I suspect that many women who seek abortions were living lives in chaos"
So... typical girls in their teens and early 20s
Who's responsibility?????????? You think it's YOUR responsibility to dictate that Pregnant Woman..... Seems to me if you wanted to make a person accept responsibility for their actions; you wouldn't have to do anything but LEAVE their situation alone...
I.e. Mind UR OWN F'EN BUSINESS...
Using the predicted "future" to pull out Gov-Gun Dictation???
Say; That sounds exactly like the 'Climate Change' lobbyists.
Both of you have far too much love for Gov-Gun dictation.
So we can finally put this Power-Mad growth to rest by just supporting Fetal Ejection?
Because I'm just about sick and tired of EXCUSES after EXCUSES after EXCUSES to shove more Gov-Gun dictation on "the people"... Especially when it is absolutely and UN-deniably NONE OF THEIR F'EN BUSINESS.... It's PERSONAL.
That would be such a nice thing.
Alas, no. I don't think there's a pill for that one.
No take backs in a casino!
Do I have a right to a Plan B for near-fatal car crashes that leave me crippled for the rest of my life?
If modern medical science invented one... Limb regrowth, fundamental body-parts regrowth... Would micro-managing Nosenheimers and Buttinskies have laws passed to DENY me these treatments? Because they have HUGE punishment boners, perhaps? Or, what? They have divined The Mind of God, and God says that modern toothpaste and toothbrushes are An Abomination Unto Him? You eat sweets? SUFFER those rotten teeth, ye of poor self-control, and do NOT cheat, using those against-the-Will-of-God, profane toothpastes and toothbrushes!!!
I (as Duly Appointed Little Helper of God Almighty, AND of Government Almighty) HAVE SPOKEN!!! Obey ye NOW, peons!
Fucking authoritarians do NOT know the meaning of "keep your punishment-boner dick in your pants, and mind your own business"!
I don't give a shit about any of that. And I said so.
Plan B is NOT an abortion pill. Different things for different use cases. Period. Birth control is not abortion. Again, period. I'm just pointing out a minor fallacy in your argument, because the original point of this article's take being such a stupid take on this court decision is pretty much a forgone conclusion.
I'm not going to get into a discussion of personal responsibility, contraception, or anything else. Don't care. I don't have a dog in this fight.
Goes back to dizzle's dismissive attitude regarding freedomrider's comments.
It's a dumb fucking article, probably the stupidest take on the whole thing from reason. Which is saying something. But I'm not going to be dismissive of an obvious fact of government overreach, just mention that in this case it's really a fucking stupid take on the whole thing.
Does that apply to infanticide or deliberate (or just careless) child abuse?
Yeah, because 99% of the time a pregnancy produces a baby that exactly matches the genetic profile of the embryo, and the climate predictions so far are hitting maybe 10% of the time (and are cloaked in uncertainty and special pleading). But otherwise exactly the same.
No; because those are crimes against other individuals (taking their *Individual* Liberty from them) unjustly.
When you make that individual appear without B.S. 'unicorn' bedtime propaganda stories then come back and see me.
Until then....
If you can't support ?baby? freedom (I.e. Fetal Ejection)
All UR supporting is FORCED Reproduction...
But, but; Statistics make Gov-Gun dictation A-Okay!!!
99% of the time Gun-Harassed Slaves were productive...
Win-Win!! /s
I dunno. On 1/6, the score was; firearms 1, fire extinguishers 1. (The later reports that Office Sicknick died of natural causes were obvious Russian disinformation.)