School Choice and Religious Liberty Advocates Just Won Big at the Supreme Court
States may not "exclude some members of the community from an otherwise generally available public benefit because of their religious exercise,” says SCOTUS.

The U.S. Supreme Court delivered a big win for both school choice and religious liberty advocates in 2020 when it held, in Espinoza v. Montana Department of Revenue, that if a state provides educational subsidies that help parents send their children to private schools, the state "cannot disqualify some private schools solely because they are religious."
In a 6-3 decision issued today, the Court repeatedly invoked Espinoza while delivering another big win for the school choice and religious liberty side. At issue in Carson v. Makin was whether Maine's tuition assistance program violates the Constitution by excluding private schools that offer "sectarian" education. In an opinion by Chief Justice John Roberts, the Court found the state to be in constitutional error.
"There is nothing neutral about Maine's program," Roberts wrote, joined by Justices Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito, Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh, and Amy Coney Barrett. "The State pays tuition for certain students at private schools—so long as the schools are not religious. That is discrimination against religion. A State's antiestablishment interest does not justify enactments that exclude some members of the community from an otherwise generally available public benefit because of their religious exercise."
Writing in dissent, Justice Stephen Breyer, joined by Justices Elena Kagan and Sonia Sotomayor, charged the majority with sidestepping the First Amendment's prohibition against the government "mak[ing] [any] law respecting an establishment of religion." In Breyer's view, "Maine wishes to provide children within the State with a secular, public education" and nothing in the First Amendment prevents the state from doing just that. "The Religion Clauses give Maine the right to honor that neutrality," Breyer maintained, "by choosing not to fund religious schools as part of its public school tuition program."
Today's result comes as no big surprise. During the December 2021 oral arguments, Chief Justice Roberts pressed Maine's chief deputy attorney general to explain why the state's approach did not amount to unconstitutional religious discrimination. It seemed fairly clear from their verbal sparring that the answers given by the state's lawyer were never going to persuade a majority of the Court.
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I"m an atheist yet am happy to see this SCOTUS ruling.
I am NOT an atheist, yet I am perhaps as non-religious a person you might run into this side of an atheist. No State is required to provide tuition, or tuition support, to any private person. But, if they do, as long as the school in question meets the State's educational requirements, the State cannot deny funding based on religion. It seems pretty simple, actually.
kind of makes you wonder on what basis 'the 3' voted against such sentiment.
Oh... and why was it 100% predictable which three 'the 3' were?
> Writing in dissent, Justice Stephen Breyer, joined by Justices Elena Kagan and Sonia Sotomayor, charged the majority with sidestepping the First Amendment's prohibition against the government "mak[ing] [any] law respecting an establishment of religion.
At a guess, I'd say it's the same logic as "platform = endorse"; that if the state is funding religious enterprises then the state is in fact endorsing those religious enterprises in an official capacity, something that is expressly prohibited by 1A.
They hate Christianity. Most leftists do. Even, no, ESPECIALLY phony Christians like Nancy Pelosi. Their religion is government and the only god they believe in is the one they see in the mirror. That’s why they hate Christianity so much. It’s competition.
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if the state is funding religious enterprises then the state is in fact endorsing those religious enterprises in an official capacity, something that is expressly prohibited by 1A.
NOPE
Even funding such schooling is nowhere near an "establishment" of religion. If they are funding someeach of baptist methodist lutheran catholic mormon, WHICH are they ESTABLISHINGas the official religion of that state?
THIS is what that First Article prohibits.
Bear in mind, at the time that was written each of theColonies had its owm state sanctioned religion, or sect. New York was Methodist, Pennsylvania Quaker, Maryland roman catholic, Massachusetts congregational and on it went. The Framers were wise enough to take religious affiliation off the table as an issue. Thus the declaraatioin that no one "religion" could ever be established to hold sway in the entirety of the new Nation. Would the methodists go to war if the roman catholics gained the upper hand? That was never to happen here.
Anyone who thinks the "establishment" clause is about any state not being able to promote one or another religious sect simply does NOT know your history. Tennessee could kick out everyone that does not want to join up with the Methodists, and be perfectly consistent with the first Article. The majority got this one exactly right. the other three can go back to school and relearn their history. But they won't. Too woke.
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Absolutely! Especially since the citizens, religious or not, still pay taxes to fund public schools. However, people need to understand that education is covered in the constitution. As a nation we have decided to educate the population. The one problem with the government being involved in education, is that control the information taught. This is why we have so many debates about what is taught. We have to find a way to kick government out of the schools.
"people need to understand that education is covered in the constitution"
WHERE?????????????????????????????????????
I smell a load of Horsesh*t lies.
Based on the rest of debo's comment, I think he simply left out a "not" he intended to place in that sentence.
cite your points and authorities. WHERE in that Constititoin and all its articles of ammendment since first ratified do FEDgov have any right or authority to even think aobut meddling with "education"?
Cite the Article involved, then section number paragraph number and lines, then quote the text.
aye
I"m an atheist yet am happy to see this SCOTUS ruling.
This ruling protects you... as an atheist.
I would consider identifying as an atheist if atheists didn't give themselves a horrible reputation for being almost the worst kind of person to talk to, and if the new atheism wave in the early 2000s didnt turn me off so much.
Agnostic just has so much less cringe to it than atheism
Funny, I feel the same about identifying as a libertarian for the same reasons.
Agnostic is the honest form of atheist
It tends to the less religious form of atheist.
I don't have enough religious conviction to be an atheist.
"Writing in dissent, Justice Stephen Breyer, joined by Justices Elena Kagan and Sonia Sotomayor, charged the majority with sidestepping the First Amendment's prohibition against the government "mak[ing] [any] law respecting an establishment of religion.""
If only giving money to students were "respecting an establishment of religion", Breyer would have a point.
Writing in dissent, Justice Stephen Breyer, joined by Justices Elena Kagan and Sonia Sotomayor, ignored the First Amendment's prohibition against the government "prohibiting (religions) free exercise".
Do those 3 judges realize that allowing a student to choose any school whether secular or any religion, is not establishing a religion? Is it worth reading their dissents to understand the contortions they must have went through?
"Is it worth reading their dissents to understand the contortions they must have went through?"
There were emanations and penumbras.
I'm guessing that it is not... just review the latest DNC talking points on the issue.
I'm sure their belief is that once the money goes thru state hands, anything it gets spent on, no matter how, is an "establishment" of whatever it is.
Exactly! You would think a Supreme Court Justice would know this. It seems to me to be an idiological desent.
One of the Volokh commenters points out that the logical conclusion of the dissent is that fire departments would not be allowed to put out a church on fire: "call us when the house next door catches on fire". Of course the fuzzy thinkers would have some new faux-principle to allow that. Or maybe they would rather see churches burn down.
One might argue that because the church is tax-exempt, and the fire department is tax-funded, that they should let it burn.
One might argue that anyone who argues that "because the church is tax-exempt, and the fire department is tax-funded, that they should let it burn" is a moron.
I've seen people say even dumber shit than that while talking about churches not paying taxes.
Well, it's an attractive thought that any money you take in is "income" and that your taking of it in should be taxed as such. But that thought works only if you think of the church as providing a paid service to its donors, and if it accumulates assets as profit.
If nonprofits generally get exemptions from taxes, then of course churches should as well. But if churches get those exemptions only because they are churches and not because they are nonprofit, then what government interest is being served by giving them that exemption?
churches pay property taxes, and sales taxes on tangible goods and services they buy. Any employees, they also pay taxes. They don't pay taxes on "income" because they are non-profits Boy Scouts don't pay taxes either, so I suppose any dwelling housing Boy Scouts, or even one of them, will have to be let to burn to the ground. Just hope the boys living there have their "firemanship" merit badges.
One of the Volokh commenters points out that the logical conclusion of the dissent is that fire departments would not be allowed to put out a church on fire:
And that commenter is wrong. That is not a logical conclusion of the dissent (assuming that the very brief description of the dissent in this article is accurate). Putting out a fire is protecting people and their property. To not put out a fire at a church because it was a church would be discriminating against the people that own the church because they use the property for religious exercise. Protecting people from fire does not in any way suggest that the government endorses or otherwise supports that religion.
In the case of schools, things are different. Justice Alito, I believe, had stated in the 2020 case referenced here about how the religious nature of a parochial school cannot be separated from the education in secular subjects. He made that statement as part of the argument that state was discriminating against religion by not providing funds for religious education, but I would say that the same statement shows clearly that the state is funding instruction in religion if it does provide tuition assistance to religious schools. The dissent is saying that a state does not have to do that it if does not want to, because then it would be directly supporting the instruction of children into religion. There is no arguing that putting out a fire at a church would be directly supporting anyone's religious exercise any more than putting out a fire at an Italian restaurant directly supports the cooking of lasagne.
How narrow was the ruling? If Roberts wrote it, I imagine it is fairly narrow but I'd have to read it and I'm just so tired today.
If I remember right, the facts of this case in Maine are pretty unique to Maine and so I could see this being a narrow ruling.
6-3
That's not what I mean. I'd have to read the majority opinion and see what doctrine was set out to resolve this type of dispute.
Maine has a weird system in play. It's not really vouchers in the sense most places use it. Maine is so vacant that many counties don't have high schools at all, and so they have a long tradition in those counties to just let the parents choose where their kids go. I think in counties that do have high schools this choice is not afforded to the parents.
Because it's a weird set of facts, I could see Roberts' opinion to be rather narrowly applied to the specific facts of the case. This means whatever doctrine is created from this case would not necessarily generalize well. This would also fit with how Roberts' tends to function. He likes small moves where possible to preserve precedent.
I'd have to read it though and also I'm not a lawyer anyway and so any analysis I supply should be taken with a grain of salt.
A funny thing about the northern part of the state is these small towns will have HUGE schools. It's because they're servicing everyone in a twenty mile radius.
I thought the funny thing about the state was the accents.
The decision is a logical extension of Trinity Lutheran and Espinoza. No real new ground broken here. More like codifying past rulings.
"Maine has a weird system in play. It's not really vouchers in the sense most places use it. Maine is so vacant that many counties don't have high schools at all, and so they have a long tradition in those counties to just let the parents choose where their kids go. I think in counties that do have high schools this choice is not afforded to the parents."
I see what you mean. Rural areas in many, many States have little choice in schools. Most of the places I have lived for the last forty years or so, the only alternative to public schools were parochial schools.
A good ruling so clearly obvious they even got Roberts on board. The dissent is just naked partisanship without anything approaching a legal justification.
Roberts likes to be on the winning side, and to write majority opinions.
A public benefit is just that, a Public benefit. It makes sense that all institutions are included.
I don't understand the dissent's reasoning that treating religious schools identical to other private institutions is the establishment of a religion by the State.
"I don't understand the dissent's reasoning that treating religious schools identical to other private institutions is the establishment of a religion by the State."
It is an extreme stretch, one that you wouldn't likely make unless you were a disingenuous partisan hack rather than a judge
So they think giving kids money regardless of the school is the same as saying all kids have to go to a Catholic school, and their parents have to go to mass regularly, and here's the tax money to make it so.
Poor blue checks. They must be having meltdowns right now.
Toobin was ranting on CNN.
Was he "tube"n?
Who-bin?
More to come; It's going to be a very hot summer.
Funny. Gorsuch, Roberts, conservative justices often find themselves crossing over and siding with the liberals. The liberals seem to vote as a partisan block in most things, rarely crossing over. Even when the decision is painfully obvious.
I think most cases are still not closely divided. Only the ones you hear about.
You're correct. You can go back further than last year if you want.
https://www.scotusblog.com/2021/07/in-barretts-first-term-conservative-majority-is-dominant-but-divided/
Like a few posters here, I’m an atheist. The Roberts court continues to promote religion, under the guise of “religious liberty”. The 1st amendment is clear, there shall be no state sponsored establishment of religion. That’s exactly what this ruling is - tax dollars supporting religion. I am surprised at all the “libertarians” here so eager to applaud the partnership of government and religion.
What religion was established here?
There is no freedom from religion. Treating secular and non secular entities equally is not an establishment of one or the other.
The 1st amendment specifically calls out religion as an entity to be treated differently from secular entities, and to be separated from government sponsorship. For good reason. There is a guarantee of freedom from the imposition of religion. Or at least there was before the hyper-religious Roberts court.
In reading the comments here it’s clear that most commenters are right-wing Republicans. There seem to be very few real libertarians. That’s okay, I just misunderstood the politics of this place.
The first amendment prohibits establishment of a state religion but it also guarantees the free exercise of religion (liberals always seem to forget that part).
Allowing people to practice their religion is not tantamount to establishment of a state religion.
No it doesn't.
Here is the definition of establish in regards to religion.
: to make (a church) a national or state institution
Which church is now the national or state religion by allowing an individual to spend his tax benefit on it. If more than one religious school is allowed these credits, which one was established?
I think you struggle with English and libertarian ideals both.
Libertarianism is not the forceful denunciation or abolishing of religion.
Nobody is forced to go to these schools.
Anytime someone is paying you for something they have power over you. The more things the government pays for the less freedom we have.
Would you agree then that government fire departments should not be allowed to put out church fires?
It is not tax dollars supporting religion. It is tax dollars supporting students, and schools in a religious-agnostic way. Declining to discriminate against a religion is not the same as establishing it.
Tax dollars shouldn't support students at all, at least not at the state level.
If you are going to have public schools, they should be financed at the local level, through local taxes, and be subject only to the preferences of the local community.
Vouchers aren't for public schools, they are tuition reimbursement for attending private schools.
The ruling does not obligate Maine to have a voucher system. They could in perfect compliance with this decision choose to only fund public schools.
But if they do choose to have a voucher system for tuition assistance to allow students to attend private schools, they can not exclude religious schools from that program.
As I was saying: tax dollars shouldn't support students at all.
Which part of that was unclear?
That means no public schools, no vouchers, period.
Making public education only funded at the local level is a guarantee to make the opportunity for education extremely unequal. More affluent localities would clearly have a much greater ability to fund education through taxes than poor localities. There wouldn't be a system more likely to perpetuate wealth inequality than that.
More affluent localities would clearly have a much greater ability to fund education through taxes than poor localities.
Which is exactly how it works under the current system.
Yes. And that is because local taxes make up a large portion, if not the majority of funding in most states, with state taxes making up almost all of the rest. (Federal spending is less than 10% of K-12 spending, and is mostly aimed at things like free and reduced lunch and some supplemental funding for high-poverty schools.)
Is this supposed to be a good way of funding public education?
You're making the erroneous assumption that spending more on education somehow leads to better outcomes and improves "opportunities for education". That is empirically wrong. Not only is this not the case within the US, other nations get better outcomes than the US spending a fraction of what US schools are spending, both individually and on average.
Other nations have also outlawed public sector unions, have almost no administrative staff, and limit schools to just educational functions.
You're making the erroneous assumption that spending more on education somehow leads to better outcomes and improves "opportunities for education". That is empirically wrong.
Explain that to the wealthy parents that send their kids to elite private schools with annual tuition at $40k or more. Here's the tuition at Sidwell Friends, where the Obamas sent their kids.
Even in Florida, where per pupil spending is well below the national average, the private schools that show up on 'top private school' lists in my area all have tuition that is 50% higher than that per pupil spending or much more. I just searched for 'top private schools' in my metro area, and every single one in the top 10 list at the review website that came up first in the search had tuition of $15k per year up to $25k, when per pupil spending in Florida at public schools is $9-10k, depending on which data set you look at. (different lists seem to add things up differently, such as whether to include capital spending on building and renovating schools or just look at operating costs). So explain what "empirical" evidence you are using to make that claim.
What product or service in the private sector do you expect to get equal or better quality for less cost? Why would you expect that in public education?
Even when buying products in the private sector, spending more does not automatically give you higher quality. When it does, it is because of competition, elastic supply curves, and efficient use of resources. Public schools meet none of those criteria. Public schools are not in competition, they don't make efficient use of resources, and the supply of top teachers is limited and inelastic. So, your arguments about competitive private businesses simply don't apply to public schools. The problem with public schools is not that they lack money, it's that they are run by government; that's why they are so inefficient.
And we have decades of national and international data. Let me list it again:
(1) Educational outcomes do not show a strong correlation with per pupil spending across US public schools; in fact, some of the best schools in the country spend very little.
(2) Educational outcomes do not show a strong correlation with per pupil spending over time in US public schools; that is, we have massively increased per pupil spending and educational outcomes have gotten worse.
(3) Educational outcomes in US public schools are worse than educational outcomes in other nations that spend much less in terms of $PPP.
Given this data, it is ridiculous to suggest that the problem with US public schools is a lack of money, or that spending more will improve educational outcomes. US public schools either need to be eliminated altogether, or they need to be fundamentally reformed (starting with the abolition of public sector unions).
The first amendment has more than the first 10 words which is apparently all you've read. You should read the entire 1st amendment some time. There's a part about not prohibiting "free exercise" of religion.
Well Mr Smarty Pants then, they can prohibit the non-free, ie with a price tag, exercise of religion!
That’s exactly what this ruling is - tax dollars supporting religion.
The difference between a Christian school and a public school is the name of the god that they worship.
The former calls it God and the latter calls it government.
And the religious school doesn't have to hire icky gay teachers.
The 1A is clear only that the federal government shall not establish a national religion. We know that because several states had established religions for more than a century.
The idea that this might apply to the states was a wild legal construct created during the progressive era, based on interpreting the 14A to mean something it never meant.
Libertarians believe that education should be private, so how government spends tax dollars to support education is not a libertarian issue to begin with.
From a paleo-conservative, libertarian-ish American point of view, the 1A should never have been incorporated in the first place. That means that towns in Maine should be free not to give a dime to religious schools; it also means that towns in Mississippi should be free to require Christian instruction in schools. That is because liberty means that local communities can decide for themselves how they want to live, including choosing to live according to some religion or other.
Hope that clears up your confusion about libertarianism and liberty.
"The 1A is clear only that the federal government shall not establish a national religion. We know that because several states had established religions for more than a century."
This statement is not accurate. Most of the states to have established churches were the founding states, and most of those disestablished long before the ratification of the 14th amendment.
https://billofrightsinstitute.org/activities/handout-c-map-of-disestablishment-in-the-united-states
"The idea that this might apply to the states was a wild legal construct created during the progressive era, based on interpreting the 14A to mean something it never meant."
No, As all the states to originally have established churches had disestablished long before ratification of the 14th amendment.
The real progressive era change in interpretation was to broaden the meaning of "establishment" beyond a singular government/tax supported church.
Yes it is. The fact that there existed states that had established religions shows that the 1A does not prohibit the establishment of churches by states. When they disestablished those churches is irrelevant.
So what? The fact that they voluntarily disestablished those churches doesn't change the fact that the 1A didn't compel them to.
Bullshit. The incorporation of the Bill of Rights started in 1897. The religious provisions of the 1A weren't incorporated until 1940 and 1947. This required explicit SCOTUS decisions.
I don't mind at all the reading of "liberty" in the 14th amendment as including those things from the federal Bill of Rights we commonly think of as liberties, but that's far from a complete description and surely shouldn't take in those facets that aren't liberties. I'm fine with understanding that the states are now prohibited from coercing people into attending church, because that interferes with their exercise of religion, but some of the ways that are taken as "establishment" of religion have nothing to do with religious liberty, and so should be beyond the reach of the 14th amendment.
But for the federal government to impose religious neutrality on every level of subsidiary government is not liberty. Liberty includes the right of people to get together and pool their money in their community to provide religious instruction.
The incorporation of the 1A did not increase liberty in the US, it set us on the course for an illiberal, centralized, authoritarian state.
"Yes it is. The fact that there existed states that had established religions shows that the 1A does not prohibit the establishment of churches by states."
This part of your statement is not accurate: "several states had established religions for more than a century."
No, the last state to disestablish was in the 1830s, so no, no US state had an established church for more than a century as a US state.
You're engaging in irrelevant nitpicking now. The fact is that the existence of states with established religions under the newly formed US Constitution shows that establishment of religion at the state level was legal. I mentioned that just to illustrate the point that, until the incorporation of the 1A in the 1940's, states were perfectly free to establish religion and establish churches.
And if you want to engage in nitpicking, let's be clear on two points. First, several states indeed had established churches that were older than a century (they predate the founding). Second, I literally talked about "establishment of religion", and even states that disestablished their churches still used Christianity as the basis of much of their education system, political decision making, and public life.
"The fact is that the existence of states with established religions under the newly formed US Constitution shows that establishment of religion at the state level was legal."
True, but of zero relevance to the meaning of 14A and the incorporation or not of federal constitutional rights against the states under the privileges and immunities clause of 14A.
"First, several states indeed had established churches that were older than a century (they predate the founding)."
That's irrelevant to the meaning of either the establishment clause of 1A or 14A.
I responded to "johnranta's" claim that "The 1st amendment is clear, there shall be no state sponsored establishment of religion". This is simply wrong.
The current legal interpretation of the 1A is radically different from the original meaning, and it required several absurd changes in interpretation of both the 1A and the 14A during the 20th century.
The current legal interpretation of the 1A is incompatible with a free society. In fact, the only state I know of that had a similarly radical interpretation of "separation of church and state" is the USSR.
"The religious provisions of the 1A weren't incorporated until 1940 and 1947. This required explicit SCOTUS decisions."
1. SCOTUS decided to handle incorporation of the BOR against the states under 14A piecemeal rather than all at once.
2. No state had an established church between the ratification of 14A and 1940, so there was no reason to consider incorporation of the establishment clause against the states before the progressive era courts expanded the meaning of establishment beyond an official government supported church.
IIRC, the decisions that expanded the meaning of establishment came in cases against the federal government, well before the courts considered incorporation of the establishment clause against the states.
...there was no reason to consider incorporation of the establishment clause against the states before the progressive era courts expanded the meaning of establishment beyond an official government supported church.
Exactly right. One side loves to think that the Establishment Clause only prevents government from supporting and/or declaring official a particular religion. Historically, this doesn't seem unreasonable at first, because the biggest religious disputes in the late colonial and Founding eras were between different Protestant denominations and between Protestants and Catholics. But it was appropriate to expand establishment to include other ways of supporting religious exercise. Government clearly favored Protestant Christianity over Catholicism as well as over non-Christian beliefs for many decades after the 14th Amendment was ratified. This was especially true in education.
The Supreme Court eventually recognized that it wasn't enough to simply bar the government from declaring open support for a particular religion or set of religious beliefs. In order to live up to the reason to have the Establishment Clause, it was necessary to bar the government from directly supporting religious exercise. That reason is that government support for one religion inherently disfavors every other belief or non-belief.
"But it was appropriate to expand establishment to include other ways of supporting religious exercise."
Not without amending the constitution it wasn't.
Not without amending the constitution it wasn't.
Ah, the "strict construction" or originalism argument in a nutshell. The Constitution must mean what it always meant unless you go through the deliberately difficult process of amending it. If public schools in the late 1800's were able to make kids read the KJV of the Bible, bow their heads while teachers led them in Protestant-style prayers, all while states passed their Blaine Amendments and tried to keep public funds away from Catholic schools, then they should be able to do that now, right?
This is the problem with originalism. It preserves whatever power structures existed when the Constitution and its amendments were written. The Founders and later political leaders were able to come up with some great ideas for their time, but clearly failed to live up to a lot of those ideals. Should we continue to interpret the Constitution according to those failures or should we interpret it according to the best version of those ideals that we believe now?
Amending the Constitution was made to be very difficult because it could change the structure of government. (Although, I think that those at the Constitutional Convention didn't anticipate just how hard it would be, in practice.) You certainly don't want it to be easy to change the Constitution and allow a simple majority of the moment to be able to change things in ways that enhance their power and ability to control the government in spite of changing views of the people. But the problem with making it difficult to pass amendments is that evolving ideas on how to protect the individual rights of those without super-majority support can't break through. Same sex marriage would likely never have been able to get the support of 3/4 of the states and 2/3 of both chambers of Congress. How long would it have been to meet that standard for interracial marriage? Desegregating public schools? Miranda rights?
Insisting on amending the Constitution to extend greater protections for individual rights means that you won't get to increase individual rights until those rights are believed to be important enough by a huge majority of the country. Any disfavored minority will just have to continue to suffer.
Correct.
You're not talking about "interpreting the Constitution", you are talking about radically altering its plain meaning; you are talking about nine unelected judges legislating from the bench.
Same sex marriage should not be a federal issue to begin with, so no problem there.
This is effing precious: progressives impose miscegenation laws and segregation laws on the nation based on their racist ideologies, and when the country revolts in horror use this to justify even more corruption of the US Constitution.
We are not a nation of enumerated rights, we are a nation of limited government.
It is consistently progressives and Democrats who, throughout US history, have caused "disfavored minorities" to suffer. It is also consistently progressives and Democrats who advocate reinterpreting the US Constitution according to their latest authoritarian and racist schemes.
Perhaps "disfavored minorities" like myself would be way, way better off if we stopped progressives and Democrats from hurting us and from messing with the Constitution.
The Establishment Clause reaffirmed that the power to establish a religion had not been delegated to the federal government/Congress. The Establishment Clause technically wasn't needed, since the Constitution itself doesn't list such a delegated power, hence Congress lacked it. That's why many people opposed the Bill of Rights: they feared that it would be misinterpreted in just the way you have misinterpreted it.
The Establishment Clause didn't apply to "government", only to the federal government. And that was the situation until well into the 20th century.
Well, you may think that it was "appropriate" or "desirable". But it wasn't for SCOTUS to decide this. The modern, progressive understanding of "separation of church and state" shouldn't have been fabricated out of thin air by SCOTUS, it should have been passed as an explicit amendment (and it would never have passed as such).
This, like many other bad SCOTUS decisions, happened during a time when the US was dangerously close to fascism, and we're stuck with the legacy now.
And in a free society, favoring one religion over another is a perfectly reasonable thing for local and state governments to do.
Your conception of "religious liberty", on the other hand, is that of a centralized, all-powerful, authoritarian nation state.
The modern, progressive understanding of "separation of church and state" shouldn't have been fabricated out of thin air by SCOTUS, it should have been passed as an explicit amendment (and it would never have passed as such).
This isn't the "modern, progressive understanding". It is the understanding of men like Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, as well. Madison, writing in 1817, even came to view having paid chaplains in Congress to be a violation of the Establishment Clause. (From the linked document:)
Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom?
In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does not this involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation.
When a large majority of Americans are Christian, it is inevitable for Christianity to be favored anytime that government is allowed to become entangled with religion. Better to keep them separate if we really believe in religious freedom for everyone.
Since Congress does have chaplains, obviously, Madison's view did not prevail.
That is true only at the federal level. At the state and local level, liberty and religious freedom demands that people have the choice to live in communities based on their preferred religion and have their children educated according to their religious preferences and ideals. It is particularly unacceptable to tax people in order to finance public schools whose teachings contradict the religious values of the tax payers.
The only place I have seen the kind of separation of church and state you are advocating is in the USSR. It is incompatible with liberty.
That is true only at the federal level. At the state and local level, liberty and religious freedom demands that people have the choice to live in communities based on their preferred religion and have their children educated according to their religious preferences and ideals.
What you are proposing here isn't the freedom of people to have the chance to live in communities with other people that share their beliefs, but for a majority in a community to use government to favor their beliefs and treat those with different views as second-class citizens. Nothing is stopping people in a community from pooling their resources to build churches, worship together, or even to vote as a bloc on many government policies in a way that lines up with their religious ideas. What they should not be able to do, if religious freedom is to be an individual right that doesn't depend on how many other people in an area share those beliefs, is to give their religious beliefs preferential treatment and preferential access to public resources.
If you want an example of what can happen, you may or may not have heard of an incident in the Arizona state House in 2013. An atheist used his turn to offer a prayer to start the day's session by asking his fellow legislators not to bow their heads. Instead, he said, "I would like to ask that you take a moment to look around the room at all of the men and women here, in this moment, sharing together this extraordinary experience of being alive and of dedicating ourselves to working toward improving the lives of the people of our state.''
The next day, a different representative insisted on having a second prayer in "repentance" for not having a real prayer the day before. He said that the non-believing representatives should simply skip their turn and let someone else say a prayer. In other words, believe what you want, as long as you keep it to yourself, as we are God-fearing people here and "give...due respect to the creator of the universe."
So, like I said, the Establishment Clause, properly used and understood, exists to maintain religious pluralism. A religious majority that uses government to treat other beliefs as being less valid or less favored is abusing government power.
So, my original is correct then: The 1A is clear only that the federal government shall not establish a national religion.
Between the founding of the US and the passage of the 14A, the 1A simply didn't apply to the states. In fact, until the end of the 19th century, Christianity was the basis of much of public education, political decision making, and public life in the states.
The 1A literally doesn't even make sense when applied to the states, since it explicitly states a restriction on Congress alone.
No part of the Bill of Rights was incorporated before the progressive era. Incorporation wasn't initiated by the 1A. In fact, the idea was explicitly rejected by SCOTUS in 1876.
So, in order to get from the 1A to "states cannot give money to schools that teach Christianity" was a multi-step process:
(1) The 14A gets passed, with the intent to provide former slaves with equal rights.
(2) The 14A gets reinterpreted and extended in the progressive era to start incorporating the Bill of Rights.
(3) The 1A gets extended to mean some vague prohibition on government in religious matters, as opposed to its clear, literal meaning as a prohibition on Congress.
(4) The 1A gets reinterpreted and extended to mean a full separation of church and state and a fully secular state.
You may like or dislike those developments. But these facts remain:
(A) The modern American understanding of "religious liberty" is diametrically opposed to the understanding at the founding of the nation.
(B) The modern American understanding of "religious liberty" is fundamentally incompatible with libertarian principles.
That is because liberty means that local communities can decide for themselves how they want to live
And these local communities are all made up of people who agree about everything? Local control is generally preferable, but that's not a libertarian principle, just a practical tool. Liberty means that individuals can decide for themselves how they want to live. Local governments can be just as tyrannical and violate people's rights just as well as a national government. Sure, it's somewhat better because you can move more easily. But that doesn't make it pro-liberty.
The libertarian principle is less government, not local control. We have layer on layer of government. If we eliminated the bottom layer, that's still less government.
No, the libertarian principle is the NAP; it is voluntary private agreements without coercion.
It is a violation of the NAP to tax me to pay for public schools and then impose rules on those public schools that prohibit the teaching of religion. This might be justified if I had voluntarily moved to an anti-religious town, but the anti-religious provisions in local government have been imposed by the federal and state governments. This is what has happened over the 20th century in the US.
It is not a violation of the NAP for me and others to voluntarily agree to set up an HOA that includes paying for schools out of HOA dues and requiring religious instruction as part of those schools. This is how towns can function in a libertarian society.
Yes: in a libertarian society, you vote with your feet. That's the only way liberty can work.
It does. And that includes the ability for individuals to decide to live in a religious community, or to live in an all-black community, or to live in a commune.
Do you think in a free society, I ought to have a right to get together with 100 other people, buy 1000 ac of land, form an HOA, and found a religious community, with religious schools, religious displays, etc.? Well, take that and subtract the state-sponsored local government and you have a libertarian society. It has local governance based on private agreements and voluntary association. And that local governance "violates" all sorts of supposed "rights" you think you have.
If you deny me the right to do what I just described, you aren't in favor of liberty. Liberty requires that government doesn't prevent me getting together with like-minded individuals to form the kind of community we want.
And if your like minded community decides to not let blacks rent rooms in their hotels or let jews eat in your restaurants, or redlines mortgages to hispanics and gay couples, so be it? Not the country I would want to live in. Or is this 'libertarian thing" just a pernicious smokescreen to allow discrimination?
Let's be clear here: segregation was a government mandate in the US, widely opposed by private businesses. Far from being the savior of minorities, government (in particular, Democrats) were responsible for these egregious instances of discrimination.
And that continues to this day: the racial policies of Democrats and progressives have continued keeping minorities segregated and in poverty.
No, this "libertarian thing" is a recognition that racism, segregation, and discrimination are primarily the result of government policy and that minorities are far better off if government is deprived of the power to discriminate.
It's people who think like you who are responsible for continued racism, discrimination, and inequality in the US.
And let's be crystal clear here: as a gay immigrant, I want businesses to be able to tell me "we don't rent to gays", "we don't do serve homosexuals", etc. That is far better than serving me soup with a fake smile after spitting in it, which is the situation you seem to favor.
We actually used to have genuinely gay friendly and minority friendly businesses in the US. Democrats have destroyed all that.
Stockholm syndrome much? When one business says we won't rent rooms or serve food to blacks, gays or jews, it is a mere hassle, unfortunately in the history of our country, these sorts of things happen in whole towns, La Jolla had a caucasian's only covenant well into the 1960's. I don't look at a return to government sanctioned segregation or bigotry as a step forward in our country. I don't know you but would guess that the spit in your food has nothing to do with your sexual inclination and probably much more with your general attitude.
Sorry Charlie, you have to put up with religious folks just like they have to put up with your gender stuff.
Parochial schools have to be accredited like any other school. It does not render them inappropriate for the purposes of education; in fact they are usually better at that job.
The 1st amendment is clear, there shall be no state sponsored establishment of religion.
Actually, this 1st amendment is clear. Congress will pass no law RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT of religion. This decision doesn't do that.
Ahhh, you’re one of those types.
It's not as if religion is some foreign thing being forced upon kids in religious schools. I would assume that most if not all of the students live in religious households. It's certainly not being forced upon the children against the will of their parents. Other than "I don't want my taxes funding a religious organization because I hate those people!" I can't really come up with an argument against using vouchers to pay for education at religious schools.
I'm also curious where this idea grew out of.
Writing in dissent, Justice Stephen Breyer, joined by Justices Elena Kagan and Sonia Sotomayor, charged the majority with sidestepping the First Amendment's prohibition against the government "mak[ing] [any] law respecting an establishment of religion." In Breyer's view, "Maine wishes to provide children within the State with a secular, public education" and nothing in the First Amendment prevents the state from doing just that. "The Religion Clauses give Maine the right to honor that neutrality,"
It's an argument one hears a lot, and I do not know where it grew out of. Even as a kid I remember thinking it kind of facially silly, and whatever weirdo Jesus Freak I am now, I did not grow up in a religious household.
It only makes sense if you ignore the "free exercise" part of the first amendment.
And a somewhat ahistoric sense of what it meant for a state to establish a religion. Seems like part of the confusion is that it's less common now, and the nations that do have established religions (Norway, England) are so secular now that it's a historical oddity more than anything.
Though, that obviously can't capture it all since in a Progressive judicial philosophy the history doesn't matter anyway.
They've taken the "non-establishment" clause to absurd lengths. Living in CA I almost wonder when they're going to take the next step and force us to rename all the cities named after Catholic saints
I wouldn't be surprised if it's happened in some places. A good while back I remember some minor push for Las Cruces, NM to remove the crosses from its official seal.
I hope everyone here has enough Spanish to understand why the city of Las Cruces had crosses in its seal.
Days of the week too.
Why do I have to honor Thor every Thursday?
🙂
It grew out of leftists being literally cancer
Check out the Blaine amendments. Originally intended as anti-Catholic amendments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaine_Amendment
What planet do you live on? Why would you assume that most if not all of the students live in religious households? From Pew: Currently, about three-in-ten U.S. adults (29%) are religious “nones” – people who describe themselves as atheists, agnostics or “nothing in particular” when asked about their religious identity.
Even if your claims were true, that's still 70% of the population. You also underestimate the significance of Christian (and also Jewish) impact and influence on U.S. (and Western) society, such as having seven days in a week. Even militant atheist Richard Dawkins admits to being a cultural Christian as a result of that.
Does this mean the 1st amendment has a part about "free exercise" of religion? Whooda thunk it? After decades of left-wing activist judges I thought that the non-establishment clause of the 1st amendment was the only thing that mattered.
Note that the 1A was only incorporated in 1940 and 1947 by SCOTUS. Before that, states legislatures could (and did) establish religions and discriminate against religions. So, pre-1940, Maine was free to ban public support for religious schools and South Carolina was free to require Christian education in schools. This decision is a "win for religious liberty" only to the extent that post-1940, states used incorporation of the 1A to actively discriminate against religion and this restores some balance. Incorporation is neither a conservative nor a libertarian doctrine.
Given it was Roberts, I assume this a Trojan horse to kill school choice programs.
A set up for an all-or-nothing? The argument was if they're going to fund one then they need to fund the other. So if someone successfully challenges funding religious schools from a different angle, like "I don't want my tax dollars funding that church," then the entire voucher system must be scrapped?
Something like that. With scary ads about Muslim, christian or Jewish schools (depending on local demographics / focus grouped biases.
This did not go how he/him thought it would
https://twitter.com/WajahatAli/status/1539279282354135041?t=APWESow0TkMpX8FpCNhfOw&s=19
Private Islamic schools and Jewish schools should open up all over Maine. The state has to fund you now so take advantage of it. Move your communities there as well. Let's see what the Supreme Court says...
Is he not aware that private Muslim and Jewish schools already exist?
dude's gotta protect the Integrity of the Institution.
Breyer, purposefully mischaracterizing words at the top level for 28 years.
It says "Congress", not "the government". And while the 14th amendment should be viewed as ensuring religious liberty, it has nothing to do with most types of religious establishment. But besides that, specifically excluding religious institutions from a government benefit is a law respecting an establishment of religion!
But besides that, specifically excluding religious institutions from a government benefit is a law respecting an establishment of religion!
I've often thought that a reasonable interpretation of the establishment clause might be that there can be no laws treating religions differently from any other social club or organization. What is or is not a religion should not be something that government has any power to decide.
Maine wants to provide a secular education. Suppose Maine wants to bring back slavery too? For someone so well versed in the law and basic logic, to make such a statement he knows to be illogical and unconstitutional, is evidence of a borderline psychotic.
Providing for a secular specific education is unconstitutional. It deliberately denies benefits to those that practice a religion. By denying the religious the benefits granted to the non religious, you are literally discriminating. By giving the money to all going to private schools you are not establishing anything, simply not discriminating against something.
Religious people can't benefit from a secular education? Secular doesn't mean anti-religious.
Seems like if Maine wanted to provide secular public schools and nothing else they would be fine. But excluding religious schools from a voucher program is not.
Not ones practicing SEL. That shit is bad for everyone.
The Money available goes to all religions not a single religion. The money is supporting the students regardless of religion. That is the opposite of establishing a religion. The money would go to Muslims, Jews, Catholic, Protestant schools without prejudice. That is not establishing a religion, it is supporting all, religious or not.
Wrong. The money doesn't go to any religion. The money goes to the students/parents. How the students/parents decide to spend the money is up to them.
Why would I want my tax dollars funding schools that discriminate against gays and lesbians or subsidizing idiotic precepts like a bearded cloud sitter? You can worship the tooth fairy for all I care but don't make the rest of us pay the ticket. Another great way for white people to take more money away from the public school system, I am sure that racism is the main propeller.
And I don't want to be paying for some yuppie assholes kid to go to some super-woke private school either. Tough shit. If government is going to fund education, there will always be things some people disagree with being publicly funded. There's one solution to that problem, but I bet you won't like it.
And if you think everyone you don't like is motivated by bigotry primarily, then you will never understand anything.
No one is asking you to fund private school education but you have no problem with making the public pay for subsidizing private religious indoctrination. That makes a lot of sense. You can all circle j and make sure the students know that the 4000 year old earth is flat, blacks are cursed by Ham and Jesus had a pet dinosaur.
No, the program pays for private education rather it is religious or not dipshit.
And I see you picked the most obscure, radical, and not considered doctrine by almost any Christian denomination beliefs to denigrate all religious people (Christian or not). Fucking bigot on top of being disingenuous or chronically uninformed about what's being discussed.
Looks like a slippery slope to me. The government says that the religious schools will be vetted and accredited. On what criteria? Public tax money will still be going to subsidize stupid superstitions and make believe, whichever denomination you favor. I don't want to finance the snake handlers, the Methodists or the flying spaghetti monsters.
Does that include the religion of global warming (now 'climate change') or the religion of sexual and gender confusion?
Why should I have to have my tax dollars spent on a law that prevents me from using my tax dollars to send my kids to a Lutheran ran school but you can spend them on sending them to a school that teaches white guilt?
What is a libertarian anyway except for a Republican pot smoker in drag? Anti choice, if the Blackman's of this world are any measure, pro Koch (becuse he writes the checks) and so of course, Pro Russia isolationists. What a bunch of losers.
So you have no argument, just a bunch of lying ad hominem attacks. You need to repent of your evil ways.
Anti choice? For what exactly? No one is forcing anything on you, however, if you spend tax money for voucher to private schools you can't turn around and purposely exclude people from spending them on the school of their choice, secular or religious, as long as that school provides the basic standards of education. Prejudice isn't excusable just because the group your prejudicial towards is religious, conservative, white etc. Bigotry is bigotry and tax money shouldn't be spent on it. If you're referring to abortion I'm assuming you have never been here for the debate on that and thus are completely unaware of the arguments people make for and against it. As for Koch Brothers, you'll find most of us who post regularly aren't really big fans and really don't consider them appropriately libertarian. Since you appear incapable of making an honest argument I have to assume you're another drive by progressive who comes here not understanding libertarianism, doesn't bother to read the articles of the arguments made and would rather argue against a false caricature of your own creation. Some of your type stick around, most don't because they can't stand up to rigorous debate and aren't used to people who reject group think, and aren't slaves to the current zeitgeist.
And just FYI, never dressed in drag (but don't care if you do, but I also don't want you trying to convince my kid to, without my permission) and not a pot smoker, though I do support legalization, I've never enjoyed pot, and prefer a good buzz from a good bourbon over getting stoned, if I decide to alter my consciousness.
Awwww, somebody isn’t have peed in this racists Cheerios. Poor fella.
"...to take more money away from the public school system..."
Not giving is taking.
Found another one.
Man Trump just keeps on looking better and better. This would have gone 6-3 the other way if he hadn't been president.
Wouldn't even be *ANOTHER* endless battle issue of who gets Gov-Guns control if there was NEVER a Commie-Education system established. But ya know; [WE] mobs here in the USA just can't live without communism.... /s
This just doesn't sit well with me. I have lived in the Chicago area all of my life, where the Roman Catholic Church dominates. My parents lived for a time in Idaho, where the LDS was the de facto state church.
Ben Franklin started the University of Pennsylvania, because he thought there should be a college where people could get an education without a religious bias. Franklin grew up in Boston, where the Congregational Church, with its Puritanical bent, dominated society and Harvard.
Well in a free market; one could just pay anyone they choose to 'educate' and if they didn't like there options they could just start their own 'education' outfit....
Such simple solutions made so complex by Gov-Guns and Armed robbery entitlements. (i.e. commie)
"Religious liberty" is the American/Constitutional right to live free from religious oppression. When government funds religious organizations, oppression is right around the corner. It's as simple as that. Just look at world history.
Immigrants by the millions came to America to ESCAPE religious oppression. The Supreme Court just made all of them roll in their graves, not to mention, the Founding Fathers as well.
No Bill, they are funding kids' education, and letting the parents pick the schools. Just like the GI Bill has done for generations of servicemen and women.
"Just look at world history." Okay, let's look at it. Show me one country that provides full school choice that results in oppression.
"Religious Liberty" lol..... Right, sure; because commie-education hasn't become a leftard religious institution.. /s
It's all about the leprechaun's pot of gold that was STOLEN from the people. Should people get TAXED (armed robbery) to fund religious education... No... Should people get TAXED (armed robbery) to fund Commie-Education... No...
People do love their Gov-Guns of Power over 'those' people's checkbooks. Once upon a time Gov-Gun Power was about defense from such armed criminals.
Here's a fact that few folks on EITHER side are aware of:
DE FACTO full school vouchers for all parents at all schools has been the policy in Sweden since 1992. Everyone is on now on board with it -- including even Sweden's Socialist Party!
In the Netherlands, 70% of kids now attend private schools with similar assistance. Works for them!