Diablo Immortal and the Paternalistic Futility of Video Game Loot-Box Bans
The game won't be playable in Belgium or the Netherlands thanks to local gambling laws.

If you have any remote connection to the world of video games, you've probably heard of the Diablo franchise of games.
The Diablo franchise has been going in various forms since the late 1990s, and it is among the more popular and well-known brands in gaming. Naturally, it has been stretched across multiple sequels and spinoffs, including, most recently, Diablo Immortal, a game that recently became available in a not-yet-finalized Beta mode.
But players who reside in Belgium or the Netherlands won't be able to play the game, at least not in its current form, apparently because its gameplay mechanics rely on so-called "loot boxes," which both countries have banned.
To understand the loot box debate, it's useful to understand a little bit about the way games in the Diablo series play.
The franchise combines top-down action-fantasy role-playing-game mechanics with a wealth of randomly generated, discoverable in-game items that players can find and use during gameplay—weapons, armor, clothing, magical artifacts or effects, and so forth. Some of these items can make the game easier or more interesting to play by granting the player new or more powerful abilities, while in other cases they are merely cosmetic, changing the look of a player's character without granting any new or improved abilities. In video game jargon, these items are known as "loot."
Progression in the Diablo games, as well as scores of other games that use similar loot-based gameplay mechanics, is as much about obtaining better loot as about achieving specific in-game goals. These games dole out upgrades on a randomized basis, often with odds that are opaque to players, so there are incentives to keep playing, to keep hacking away at monsters and discovering new areas.
The specifics vary from game to game, but generally speaking these games allow players to find new and better loot by exploring in-game territory or defeating enemies. But in some cases, there are alternative methods for gaining better loot, like game-related stores, that allow players to simply purchase upgrades. And in some cases, those upgrades take the form of mystery boxes, the contents of which are randomly generated. That means players can pay to take what is essentially a dice role in hopes of obtaining better stuff.
The argument against loot boxes is that mechanisms along these lines are akin to gambling, particularly if the items have some sort of value outside the game itself—that is, if they could potentially be traded or sold for cash. In the United States, the most prominent proponent of anti-loot-box laws is probably Sen. Josh Hawley (D–Mo.), who in 2019 proposed a ban on loot boxes in games aimed at kids. The restrictions in Belgium and the Netherlands obviously go further, treating everyone the way Hawley wants to treat children—and making clear that loot box bans are an inherently paternalistic form of regulation. These rules work from the assumption that gamers need politicians to protect them from aspects or elements of games they might want to play.
It's true that gamers often express frustration with these mechanisms, but publishers know this and calibrate their games accordingly. In 2018, major games publisher Electronic Arts dropped loot boxes from the game Star Wars: Battlefront II due to player backlash—no laws required.
There are already signs of such a backlash with Diablo Immortal, with several reviews noting fan complaints about the game's payment-based mechanics, and fans posting deeply negative review scores. It's currently at a 0.3 player score on MetaCritic which is reportedly the lowest user review score ever. Not surprisingly, quite a few players have left comments indicating that they simply won't play the game. In any case, the point is that these disputes can be worked out between players and game producers without political involvement.
It's not entirely clear what particular gameplay mechanism triggered the decision to pull the new Diablo game from the Netherlands and Belgium. It's always possible that some version of the game will become available in those countries at a later date. A spokesperson for Activision Blizzard told Ars Technica that the decision "is related to the current operating environment for games in those countries." As Ars notes, players in those countries have also posted purported messages from the company saying they would not be able to install Diablo Immortal due to "gambling restrictions."
But what is clear enough is that these sorts of prohibitions don't necessarily result in game makers eliminating features or changing their games. Rather, it appears that game publishers will stick with certain features and simply decline to release some games in some markets. Gamers don't get better games; they simply don't get some games at all.
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Beverly, I wonder if you can help me. I just recently joined this forum and have been receiving a gratis education on all things related to sealioning, Wondermark comics and parody accounts. The learning curve has been steep. But now it appears my shunning video games and viewing them as mindless, wasteful and better suited for the socially impaired, have to be revisited. Below you can read that these libertarians who take snark to an impressive level are, gasp, video game players, some of whom are retired old farts. I am overcome with sadness, pity for these idiots and now realize what makes me really special: my last video game was Asteroids in the 1980s. How would you direct me?
- sign,
Pac-Man is for Losers
Do you really need any more proof that the "tech/gamer" community is not your friend, libertarians? I can't tell you how many arguments I've had with gamers whose so called liberty-loving ways stop hard on the borders of "loot boxes".
And make no mistake, I have no love for loot boxes either, but I'm just barely smart enough to not let Nancy Pelosi design my video games.
It's like how a lot of drug users aren't particularly libertarian, they just want their drugs legalized. It's more libertine than libertarian.
Which is fine, when building a coalition, but it's probably useful to keep the distinction. Especially because there's more of them then there are of libertarians, and in those coalitions the minority tends to drift towards the views of the majority. Might be fertile ground for winning converts though.
Note to foreign readers: the looter says "drug users" but means "persons who enjoy drugs other than stupefacient alcohol and carcinogenic tobacco--both of which hire lobbyists and are subsidized."
I said what I said. If you want to include tobacco and alcohol use under drug usage that's fine with me. That's consistent with the behavior of many folks who push for deregulation of alcohol production as well. I have no idea what's going on in the tobacco industry, so can't say there.
But there was no implied morality to the drug user comment either, just that much of the energy comes from single issue voters who think their drug is actually good, rather than a libertarian principle of general freedom of choice.
I think I indicated that originally with my comment about it being reasonable for coalition building. Don't be a pedant, Hank. You're better than that.
Is he, though?
Because to gamers, the games are their entire life. It's easy being "libertarian" when it's about stuff you don't care about. But many gamers can't think outside of games, so loot boxes become world destroying events in their eyes.
I love playing a lot of games, but I don't consider myself a gamer because I am NOT part of that highly dysfunctional culture.
The thing is that I've seen people lose everything to gaming addiction. People literally pouring thousands of dollars into Clash of Clans or playing Everquest or World of Warcraft 12 or more hours every single day. People will genuinely spend their rent money on these games. It's exactly the same as slot machines.
Add in the fact that Diablo's lootboxes aren't just prominent. They are INSANE. To fully complete all of their character development, people have calculated you will have to spend literally a hundred thousand dollars. People WILL throw away everything to do it, and often they are people who simply cannot afford it.
Most gamers don't actually want the regulation. We want boycotts and public shaming to make game companies change their monetization methods away from predatory practices that take advantage of the mentally ill.
Now let's talk about the Rise and Fall of Blizzard.
It's been largely a clusterfuck since what, 2010? 2012? It's almost like transitioning into a megastudio robbed them of the cojones they needed to keep things interesting (note: I have low hopes for Starfield for this exact reason).
I was an extremely loyal WOW player for like 5 years. And then Cataclysm dropped and that was it for me. I'm told things haven't gotten any better. On Diablo: whycome the Monk so weak? And please stop giving us Barbarians, they have always been and continue to be a chore.
"I have low hopes for Starfield for this exact reason"
Well, Starfield is Bethesda and they are coming off the debacle of Fallout76, so that should motivate them to be more careful and Microsoft not to get involved unnecessarily. That being said, it's Bethesda, so naturally it will be a buggy mess out of the gate. That's their standard.
Microsoft, sadly, tends to be too hands-off and stuff gets delayed indefinitely. Studios need some freedom...but if you give them 10 yrs, funded, to make a game, it will be done in 11.
I am hoping that Diablo 4 isn't an epic goatfucking failure.
Shouldn't be banned, but should be relentlessly mocked and scorned for absolutely godawful "mechanics" requiring dumping truckloads of money into it.
The problem is a lot of the people bitching about it still play the game and still spend money on it. Like they have so little willpower they can't even find something better to do than play a game they hate because it reminds them vaguely of another game they once loved.
They're shallow money-making schemes that the Games of Old used to give you for free if you just stuck with the game and earned them the old fashioned way: by playing.
Frankly I could care less about lootboxes so long as they are not mandatory to succeed with the game or keep up with the rich players. But when they cross over into "pay to win" territory then I don't play the game.
I don't need a law to fix this, I just don't play the game.
But when they cross over into "pay to win" territory then I don't play the game.
And, IMO, the opacity is the problem. If the game says up front the item is a one-in-a-trillion drop and I've got 10 chances for every lootbox I purchase, OK. Whether that falls into p2p or p2w, is up to me and every other player. I don't need a law to fix it either. However, I will encourage people not to pay stupid taxes to game makers.
I actually think Loot Boxes are ingenius ways of providing options that discover different price sensitivities. I have no problem with companies doing it. Same with "0 Day DLC".
I know a lot of people complain about this, but to me that is more a symptom of people in the world being overly obsessed with their standings vs others. Should you care that another person finished a game quicker because they paid their way through a grind? Why?
Yeah, I agree. I try not to worry that much about what other people do. In multiplayer games there can be an unbalancing effect, so I have some sympathy there, but I still think the correct solution is just go play a different game. There really is no shortage of them nowadays.
Yes I should have clarified vis a vis PVE or PVP type games. And of course there are different levels of Loot Box between "Buy new skins" and "Buy a win button".
There's also a perverse incentive on the game maker to make the grind way more grindy to get people to cough up for cheat boxes. And other issues.
All that said, you are right. Who cares if others pay for something? And Used Cars is right, I follow his theory. I just don't play. Simple enough solution, if a game isn't fun why bother?
If they make it a grind, I don't play. If it costs me lots of money beyond the purchase price, I don't play. People who continue to do so are more than welcome, but I don't understand. My time is too precious to waste on video games that are only meant to waste my too precious time.
That said, I am a bad example. Gamer in the old days, but I rarely bother anymore. Still, I can't be convinced you need to stop some other person from paying for digital ephemera if they want it.
I'm still an avid gamer, but Steam has thousands of cheap, good and fun games. So, I have not interest in Diablo Immortal or any other game with a pay to play mechanism. Charge me once for the game and charge for the DLCs. That's fine with me. But I won't be nickeled and dimed to death.
Fairness in PVP and other things related to esports (e.g. WORLD #1 BOSSKILL) are often the reason IME. Though I'm not much a part of this world anymore, so maybe things have changed.
Should you care that another person finished a game quicker because they paid their way through a grind? Why?
Especially since the issue has been solved, endlessly, and is easier to manage than in other sports. Stock, modified stock, open, big iron, natural, etc., etc., etc. Don't want to lose to a billionaire because he's a billionaire? Start your own bare bones speed run division.
It isn't that I care what someone else does, it's because it incentivizes game developers to create a problem in the game, then sell the solution to the players. Make transactions needless in the beginning of the game, then once people are really having fun, you hit the breaks on leveling gains/loot drops and the only way to make meaningful progress is to pay. This is called the paywall in these games, and yes, it is when most wise players quit the game.
However, I would rather live in a world where there wasn't a paywall and you could just play the game and have fun. I would rather pay my money upfront and get to enjoy the experience, like in diablo 2, then pay more money for more content later, than to just have a generally less fun experience overall.
TLDR: Heavy monetization of games is bad because developers get rewarded for making intentionally bad games. I'm not saying this needs to get fixed by a law, I am saying people should support indie developers whose goal is to focus on gameplay first, money second (ironic since the motto of Blizzard is "Gameplay First".
Is it? That's kind of like if Goldman Sachs motto were "A better world for all.", isn't it?
As an example, Gran Turismo 7. Sony has made what you earn per race rather low and the best cars are brutally expensive.
Now, I will happily say "Oh, fuck THAT" and not even try for them. But completionists exist and they are looking at literally hundreds of hours to get the best cars.
The "Games as Service" model has been a fucking disaster, IMO.
If a driving simulator style game doesn't have some sort of free mode where I can race whatever car I want, I don't want the game.
I mean, I paid for the fucking game, that means I paid for the F1 car as well as all the rest. I don't want to have to drive the 73 Pinto for 8 months before I can drive a proper race car.
It is OK to have a progress mode, that's fun for what it is. I won this so I can race in that, etc. But for a game that's a "simulator" style game, sometimes I just want to drive something I could never drive in real life and bomb around Spa at insane virtual speeds.
I haven't played games in a while, has any new driving game been better than twisted metal?
The complaint is that it's common for lootboxes to be turning up with pay2win--which is particularly frustrating when you paid quite a bit for the base game, and they typically don't tell you ahead of time because funny thing it dings sales. And long term it bleeds your player base because it causes them to feel abused...
That means it is actually really important if your game depends on a server run by the company, even if you don't mind lootboxes. You need enough of a healthy user base that the servers don't get shut down.
Importantly: Lootboxes which have reliably good payouts and a game which can be pretty fun without you having to buy lootboxes or bonus material do much better. This is what I've seen suggested on game design, actually. (Rule of thumb: Happy players will buy things. Unhappy players just plain leave.)
The thing that was the in for government was that young kids could do it and it, technically, is gambling (you do not know precisely what you're getting, so it is a bet).
I hate the practice, but I do not think government involvement is a good fix. Players need to show self-control and NOT buy them.
Gaming addiction is a mental illness. It's the same as gambling addicts at casinos.
Libertarianism mandates that one of the few functions of government is to protect the weak from exploitation. This includes both children and mentally ill. Companies whose business model relies on exploiting addicts out of all the money they have should at the very least be ashamed of themselves, and regulation in this circumstance, while tricky to implement, is not beyond the pale.
Christ, what an asshole.
Isn't Hawley a Republican?
Indeed; good catch.
Still, it should say Sen. Josh Hawley (A-Mo.).
He claims to be one but actions suggest he really wants to be a Democrat. What else do you call someone who is thinking up new laws every day to impose on people?
I figured it was Reason letting the mask slip.
Q from a non-gamer (but I wrote two simple computer games long long ago):
How do loot boxes affect game play? I can understand being annoyed that you can pay for upgrades instead of having to earn them the old-fashioned way; is this the complaint, or am I just confused by "box" into thinking this is some way of saving up loot for later? Is "loot box" just another name for "upgrades store"?
Depends on the game.
Sometimes it is just straight aesthetic stuff like skins that don't effect the game. Other times it is equipment that you would otherwise have to go fighting/grinding for. Still other times, it is exclusive content that can only be gathered by paying money. And some times that exclusive content gives unique abilities.
In Player vs Environment games, I often shake my head that people are so obsessed with the fact that some other dude is getting through the environment by paying for shortcuts. On the other hand, I can understand how in Player vs Player games, the idea of Pay to Win can be distasteful for people.
It is hard for a company to design a game that allows for payment while also avoiding being "Pay to Win". Magic the Gathering (A card game, not Video), when I was younger, was pretty good example. We'd play where rich kids had boxes of rare cards, and your uncommon Terror would take care of that monster every time. It really was a game where the deck building was an art that could not be brute forced with money.
I spent many a day in middle school ruing the sheer unfairness of the Icy Manipulator / Royal Assassin combo. Though it was always a treat watching somebody play a Shivan only to watch helplessly as it dies before they even had a chance to block.
>>but I wrote two simple computer games long long ago
oh the days of the TRS-80 ...
No, these were for a business, for non-commercial reasons; one was to reverse-engineer a new operating system which the seller wold not document well enough, and when done, we gave them the choice: you provide full documentation under an NDA, or we publicize our trivially-incorrect documentation. The other was similar but much less effort.
Creating and debugging the games was fascinating, for a while. Actually playing them has always bored me. Same with model trains, say, or R/C airplanes; it is far more fun designing a layout or trying a new design than actually operating them.
Foam RC gliders were a revelation in the RC airplane world.
Get on a good slope, smash into each other, and suddenly the fun factor skyrockets.
Of course, everyone gets different joy out of what they do. If building beats operating, more power to you. Keep building, or whatever else it is you find most interesting.
entirely more intriguing than my attempts at Zork and Castle Wolfenstein-ish games lol
In most cases, loot boxes have gear that can only be obtained in the box, and typically is much more powerful than non-loot box gear.
There's also an exclusive factor
It's two things. The most pernicious is "pay to win". People who buy lootboxes have an in-game advantage over people who don't. And for some competitive games that makes a huge difference. But even when not competitive it still feels like rotten beans.
The other issue is the "gambling" aspect. You don't know what you're going to get when you drop down a couple of bucks for a box.
A couple of bucks? Addicts spend literally thousands on these things.
Worst cases it's a matter of being able to buy a chance at gear superior to anything you can earn while playing, less egregious is being able to bypass dozens of hours of gameplay with one purchase which to me only really gets bad when coupled with things like unique gear for a server for some achievement first.
To answer the question "am I just confused by "box" into thinking this is some way of saving up loot for later?" directly, yes, you are confused. Obviously, play mechanics vary but generally players are not prevented from starting a fresh game and immediately dumping hoards of cash into loot boxes. Normally, the idea is that they be used to avoid tedious grinding after a player has achieved a level of 'gratis' gameplay, but typically, the only real barrier is the ability of the player to pay.
In many games, some boss fights or puzzles have a timed aspect, i.e., the monster becomes enraged and does greatly increased damage over time, or you are fighting on a platform that is collapsing and at some point you will fall to your death, or in a chamber slowly filling with water, etc. If you can't overcome the challenge because it is impossible to do so within the time limit without the benefits of items from loot boxes, you are effectively being prevented by the game mechanics from accessing subsequent content.
The player not willing to cough up $ for loot (or not allowed if it is a child) might only have limited access to the game. Even if it is disclosed, loot boxes are typically random, and it might cost $2 or it might cost $200 to actually obtain a specific item.
Usually, the disadvantages of not using loot boxes can be overcome by simply investing more time and effort in the game. But in my experience, the real user experience for those unwilling to shell out extra $ is very deceptively represented by the game designers. In particular, the enticement of children to gamble on loot is unconscionable.
Thanks for all the answers; you describe it better than TFA. I now understand the passions, which inevitably lead to politicians getting involved for the children of all ages.
Despite my antipathy towards loot boxes, they ain't gambling.
In real gambling, you pay and the house wins in 99.9 repeating% of the time.
That said, I expected no less than a full throated defense of corporate rights on this issue from the magazine. Cue my shock that they did exactly that.
Actually, the house wins 0 to ~30% of the time, depending on the house.
The lootbox game is an odd form of gambling. You win 100% of the time, but what you win might not be worth what you think you bet.
Yeah, they're gachas more than anything.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gashapon
The house wishes they had the odds that loot drops have.
Nanny state behaviors such as this are materialistic, not paternalistic. Both gaming commissions risibly have 'protecting players' as part of their mission - a maternal behavior. Both allow 3rd parties to refer a person or entity for an 'exclusion,' similar to the worst aspects of bias reporting. These are bureaucracies of busybodies and karens, authoritarian and convinced that their edicts are self-evidently correct.
>>players who reside in Belgium or the Netherlands won't be able to play the game
ready access to drugs and chicks should numb the pain.
Don't care. When is Portal 3 coming out?
Hockey '94 forever.
Everybody knows Valve cannot count to "3"
The problem is that loot boxes use psychological techniques to coerce people into buying them, and getting people addicted to buying them.
And in my book, that counts as aggression.
Unless the psychological technique is mind control, no, it's not aggression. Millions of people don't play. Millions of people play without paying. The lingo is literally 'whaling', as in, the corporations don't care about the millions of fish in the sea, they just want to land the whales. And, in that regard, fuck the whales. Don't want to get landed? Don't take the bait.
Don't want to get landed? Don't take the bait.
I agree. Except when it comes to kids. Kids need nannies.
And parents should absolutely monitor what their kids are doing. But if little Timmy enters his mom's credit card info without her permission, the idea that she is contractually liable to pay for nothing but intellectual property that Timmy cannot legally contract to purchase in the first place is pure and utter bullshit.
Anonymity should not make mom liable for an otherwise unconscionable contract entered into by a minor. Video game peddlers should police themselves on this, but they are not doing so.
How did little Timmy get hold of a credit card?
Responsibility takes many forms.
Fuck that. Credit card theft should already be a thing of the past. Blizzard allows me to place 2 factor authentication on my game so my account can't be stolen by Chinese scammers, but Visa and the banks can't make it available on my credit card account for the 2-4% that merchant services get paid on every purchase in world? I would happily suffer the 10 seconds of inconvenience involved.
Visa and the banks are fine with fraud in controlled amounts and to the extent they can pawn the bulk of it off on their customers.
A credit card # backed up with confirmation # sent to a mobile device behind biometric access would be virtually fraud-proof. Hell, they could easily and cheaply require card scanners to have a fingerprint scanner and match it to a print stored on a smartcard and create an almost fraud-proof method for in person purchases without a second device.
Do I have to start my own worldwide Visa network to get that?
Except you CHOOSE to do business with Visa. They have decided that customer convenience is worth the cost of the fraud. As long as people are willing to continue to pay the merchant fees, they appear to be right. If you don't like it, you don't have to do business with them. Online payment systems, cash, gift cards, crypto, checks, etc. are all options. Plenty of people don't have credit or bank cards. Inconvenient? You bet. But also certainly doable.
Besides, Timmy stealing Mom's CC is not fraud, scamming, or hacking... it is theft. Mom is responsible just like she would be responsible if Timmy stole her keys and drove her car into a Applebee's. Plenty of options are available to Mom... secure her CC from Timmy, use parental controls, don't let Timmy have a phone, don't leave Timmy unsupervised, etc. It is not Visa's job to be a parent.
It is not Visa's job to be a parent.
It is Visa's fucking job to make sure the person using their services is who they say they are.
Mom shouldn't have to turn Timmy in to the cops to get the charges removed. Timmy cannot enter into a binding contract and an electronic agreement to pay is most definitely contractual.
If Timmy were buying TVs with her card from a store, you might have a point.
At this point, identity theft happens because the system tolerates it, not because it cannot be easily prevented.
It is Visa's fucking job to make sure the person using their services is who they say they are.
And that is provided. It's not Visa's or anyone else's job to accommodate all levels of stupidity at all costs for free. Ford provides you with a car that has doors that lock and keys to unlock them. If you drive your car into a neighborhood where there's a lot of auto theft, leave your keys in the car with the doors unlocked, it's not Ford's job to remunerate you. Moreover, unlike Ford and other currency systems, Visa can and does work with merchants to accommodate your stupidity. They don't do it for free but then, there are plenty of people like myself, Raccroc, and I'm pretty sure even yourself that are certain that they shouldn't be obligated to fix the "I left my keys in an unlocked car." problem for people for free.
At this point, identity theft happens because the system tolerates it, not because it cannot be easily prevented.
Visa should accommodate you because keeping your card out of little Timmy's hands is too much trouble for you? I'll tell you the same thing I told my brother back when people were describing them as predatory lenders, I hope Visa fleeces more of you people and offers people like me and my kids the ability to purchase at an even greater discount. Beats the hell out of anonymous currencies that cannot offer chargeback services at cost to everyone because they can't verify when little Timmy has gotten ahold of Mom's wallet.
not because it cannot be easily prevented
Kinda hard to tell if "there ought to be a law" is better, worse, or not substantially different from "Someone else should solve this problem for me for free."
Kinda hard to tell if "there ought to be a law" is better, worse, or not substantially different from "Someone else should solve this problem for me for free."
If that is what I meant, that is what I would have said. You will notice that I offered a few options for fraud-free cards that would cost nothing more than things do currently other than the implementation for which I would certainly be willing to pay a premium.
The fact that Google, Microsoft, and even small players like Blizzard and Steam offer 2 factor authentication to protect accounts from fraud and Visa and world's largest banks don't tells me that it is not in their interest to do so. They profit from the fraud.
If that is what I meant, that is what I would have said.
You clearly didn't click the link:
"Struggle no more! I'm here to solve the problem with algorithms!"
---Six months later---
Wow, this problem is really hard.
Just because you think the problem can be solved simply and said as much does not necessarily reflect reality.
They profit from the fraud.
First, it depends on the fraud. If it's account fraud, no. It costs the bank, they have to report the loss on their books. If it's card fraud, Visa and the bank conduct an investigation to determine who is responsible and the costs are written off wherever the fault is found to lie. Incident-wise, the ratio is generally about 80/20 card/account. Cost-wise, it's closer to 55/45. Second, they don't print money in a vacuum and I'll tell you the exact same thing I told my brother back in the days when everyone was saying credit card companies signing up college kids with no credit history was predatory lending: Yup. They profit from their services and charge fees for poor customers/cardholders. That's why I can pay $0.95 on the dollar using my Visa card. Third, since about 2015, total losses due to crypto fraud were on par with losses due to credit fraud despite credit accounting for over 400X as much transaction volume. Fourth, multiple times Visa and their subsidiaries have attempted to set up and provide *multi*-factor authentication multiple times for their card holders back when Google was still a glimmer in Sergei's eyes. They were near universally rejected and safeguards like EMV are implemented both on Visa *and* cardholders at the point of a gun, because people like you say things like "It's a real hassle to keep Timmy from getting ahold of my credit card, can't you just make it safer without me having to do any more work?" I'm pretty sure you haven't heard of iSignthis. I'm pretty sure because I've implemented several variants of their technology on a couple of payment platforms only to have them go completely unused. Fifth, several of the vulnerabilities of EMV were the explicit result of TFA, whereby a phone could verify that a transaction had been authenticated and convince a chip reader to process the transaction without any secondary authentication taking place.
So, again, you don't know what you're talking about when you say "Simple. See? Problem solved." and, not knowing your own ignorance, your assertion of "Why won't Visa do this?" amounts to "Why won't someone else solve this problem for me for free?"
Besides, Timmy stealing Mom's CC is not fraud, scamming, or hacking... it is theft. Mom is responsible just like she would be responsible if Timmy stole her keys and drove her car into a Applebee's. Plenty of options are available to Mom... secure her CC from Timmy, use parental controls, don't let Timmy have a phone, don't leave Timmy unsupervised, etc. It is not Visa's job to be a parent.
Well said. Grandma wasn't signing her name to checks because she really liked to practice her cursive. n-Factor authentication doesn't mean dick if little Timmy can lift the card number, CVV code, *and prints*, *and confirmation code* directly from Mom's purse. Visa's and many merchants are actually pretty liberal about chargebacks in such situations (you can thank even more 'libera' parents who will pay Timmy's bills for months or years on end without the slightest inspection), especially relative to other currency schemes where chargebacks aren't built into the system by default. Progressively more anti-fraud measures have proven to be technical engineering solutions to social engineering problems.
There is another group that we need to protect. The mentally ill. Gaming and gambling addiction are recognized and closely related mental disorders.
I joke that I know too much math the play the lottery. However, that's not the case. There are people who simply cannot stop playing even when they know how bad it is for them.
In my book, you are a born victim, incapable if taking responsibility for yourself, and by all rights ought to be somebody's ward as being incapacitated. You are definitely not an independent adult, and should not be allowed to control money, sign contracts, vote, or have guns.
From what I've seen of this the game looks nice for a mobile game but the cash shop and practices around it are atrocious to the point I won't consider downloading this regardless of the changes they make from here out.
Calling it "paternalistic" seems a bit much. I am not convinced that something shouldn't be done to prohibit some of the bad behavior in the gaming industry. It is just that banning is not a viable solution.
First to address Sen. Hawley... While no friend of his at all, I am not sure his argument doesn't have at least some merit. I don't know that this is as simple as a Loot Box + Pay Money problem. Game companies, and virtually every other digital good, requires agreeing to dozens of pages of legalese in order to use their products. Most adults cannot fully comprehend the entirety of a Software License Agreement, how can we expect kids, who are are not only minors but are also only partially educated, to fully comprehend the things they are agreeing to and rights they are giving up. If companies are going to hide behind user agreements and SLAs, there is certainly a case that can be made that minors should be afforded some sort of protection.
For everyone else... well, with so many other things, politicians are going about it in some of the stupidest ways possible.
Companies got the DMCA, what we really now now is a consumer's
digital bill of rights, so to speak (just a quick off the top of my head list):
Force companies to disclose the odds.
Force companies to disclose profit methods besides the initial POS (e.g. selling analytics, in software ads, subscriptions, micro payments, etc.).
Force companies to clearly disclose duration till end of life of all digital purchases (e.g. how long will the servers stay up for this game... especially important for games that flop and the plug is prematurely pulled).
Force game companies to put in place a continuity plan, or method to make free, all digital assets for the duration of all agreements (e.g. an insurance policy with a company who will continue to run the servers for a duration if the company goes belly up).
Include things like Right to Repair, 3rd party integration rights (e.g. my fridge will only use GE branded filters and has a chip to prevent third party ones a la printer companies... I would not have bought that fridge if that had been clearly disclosed), ability to transfer assets to another party disclosures (if you "purchase" a book for an Amazon Kindle, you should be able to sell/transfer it; otherwise, they should not be able to claim it is a "purchase"), etc.
Annoying Prop 65 style warnings that are on damn near everything you buy these days, Surgeon General warnings, Parental Guidance type icons, FCC disclaimers, Electrical Hazard & Poison icons, etc. We force companies to put clear and concise icons and labels on real world goods all the time. Why not do so for digital goods so that basically, if your Operating System is going to start pitching advertisements at you, it is disclosed pre-purchase in a way besides being buried beneath hundreds of pages of legalese.
This is especially important now that more and more traditional companies are beginning to lock their products via digital protections and after-POS up-sales. Telsla is a prime example: you buy the car. Traditionally, you get the whole thing. But with Tesla, if you want it to do certain things, you have to pay for software unlocks/upgrades. As more and more stuff joins the IOT world, that is going to become all too common. As it stands right now, it can be very difficult to figure out what exactly you are and are not buying.
The Yourup-peon Union seems to have reacted badly to Apple legalese insisting that to use its charger plugs everyone Over THere had to agree to have their mouths sewn to the butts of strangers and strangers mouths sewn to their own butts... plus cash royalties. Now all HumanCentiPads sold there will have to have USB Volkspluggen. Schadenfreude was coined to cover this very occasion!
Trey and Mat have stayed on target with this tripe for a long time. Between Human CentiPads and Canadough, they pretty much have the nailed. Fuck the Canadian Devil, Beelzaboot!
It is clear why it was pulled. What these companies are doing is just adding a layer of indirection to avoid the current laws. In that sense it is futile to try and ban loot boxes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o17lBUZgjTs does a good job explaining this.
False advertising and good old bait and switch schemes are also common in the industry. But again enough layers of indirection to make it so complex as to stay ahead of the legal system.
It's no accident that the game industry has been involved in so many crypto scams either. The whole industry has a serious ethics problem.
I'm not advocating for more laws. We need better education about how fucked up this industry is, so more people do vote with their pocket books. Unfortunately it's such a complex area that most people have no clue about what is really going on.
The Kleptocracy bans gambling. After all, bookies predict election outcomes better than pandering perjuring poltroons. And settling bets involves factual knowledge, not opinions and social pressure. Games that really irritated intellectuals of the looter persuasion were "Leisure Suit Larry" and "Duke Nukem." Deutschland Erwache mentality of the sort popping up in Woke Amerika is not, however, opposed to the government lotteries whose prizes Orwell described as "largely imaginary," the big winners, "non-existent persons."
"Leisure Suit Larry" and "Duke Nukem."
I am going to attribute the incoherency and irrelevance of that rant to the fact that have to be an aging Boomer to associate outrage with games from the 1980s.
An aging boomer and an idiot would certainly work as well.
It's actually very simple, if more than $1000 dollars can be spent to experience everything in the game, mandate it as 18+.
True, but just as simple is to have two versions of the game available (w/free patch to switch!): General Audience w/ $999.99 spending limit and 18+ with unlimited.
Nope. The game mechanics are either designed for the adult whales, or designed for people under 18. Game companies don't get to have their cake and eat it too.
Movie companies do that all the time... R rated theatrical and then PG or so when cut for TV.
Right now game mechanics are designed for the whales, but what makes you think, with literally billons of dollars at play, game companies cannot do the same as movies. Design a game with two mechanics... a hard limit and unlimited. Allow moving good from one one to the other (if, lets say, a customer has their 18th birthday *wink*).
How exactly are you going to stop them for doing that?
Different box? Different name? Different word art? Different how? How much are you willing to micromanage this?
While that solution might create new costs for companies they don't have today, I am confident that under that solution they most definitely will eat their cake and have it too.
The other way as well: "We set the limit at 1 BTC or $1000 when 1 BTC was the equivalent of $1000. It's not our fault that the market raised the limit above $60K and then lowered it back down to $21K."
So how much are people paying to play individual games these days?
I tapped out a decade ago, when expenses were pretty much all up front - buy xbox/Playstation, pay $60 for Madden or Call of Duty, and then what $5/month if you want to play online.
I can't imagine having to pay for the console, game, network, then all sorts of bullshit along the way.
Most console/pc games still run around that.
First thing they did was start selling largely incomplete games that would get fleshed out via purchasable add packs. Then unique items began showing up (like gold plated guns, outfits not otherwise available in game, etc.). Then pay to cheat items became more common. Then more and more pay as you go freemium type things crept in.
Sometime they will box it all up in Gold or other premium sounding Edition.
Loot boxes are a more recent addition to the long line of sleeze. Benefits to the game company is that it not only allows them to further milk the early adopters, but it also allows them to try and fleece those who wait for the complete game to be released in a GOTY Edition
Mobile games is another beast entirely. The industry pretty much abandon selling games around the time of PVZ and the original Angry Birds. Freemium has been the scam ever since.
Games are basically deflationary at this point. New releases are 60, some PS5 games are now 70 but not all.
If you tend to wait for a sale, they tend to drop dramatically in price. It's basically cheaper than ever to play games.
I used to be a mobile game producer. I never created a single loot box or pay-to-win scheme. In fact, I used to take those games and find ways to de-monitize them for the Amazon kids platform. Google has a similar service now where you pay a flat fee (usually around $20/mo) and get access to hundreds of games with no additional costs. Sometimes it requires a redesign and sometimes they just set all costs to zero. But you can really see how lootboxes invade (determine?) game design. Some games have a hard paywall that you cannot pass unless you buy something. More sophisticated games will actually put you on a different (harder) track if you buy anything because they know you're more likely to pay to advance.
I believe in limited government. Loot boxes should be legal. But it should also be legal to burn down the houses of those who design them. Figuratively, of course. I'm glad that game reviewers are taking note.
I do not get it. I have been playing since release and Diablo Immortal is a fun game. I have not spent a penny. I could care less what other people are doing in the game. I will probably spend 5 or 10 bucks at some point soon as i am having so much fun playing that i want to support the game.
I have a paragon level 13 crusader and have not hit any paywalls or issues. People are just clueless idiots, whining about things they do not understand.
To start, I have no problem with pay-2-win games. If some moron wants to dump $40,000 on a mobile video game, more power to them. We live in a free society and should be able to spend the money we earned as we see fit.
The problem is Blizzard deceived their player base in advance of the Diablo Immortal launch. Blizzard went to great lengths to ease their players' concerns by stating Diablo Immortal was not pay-2-win.
This repeated false narrative resulted in a significant bump in revenue from advance purchases from players, who would largely be unable to progress without paying once the initial campaign was completed.
Blizzard told their customers in advance of launch that they would not be able to purchase gear or experience. What they failed to mention was gear and experience do not really matter, it is the paid legendary gems that are mandatory to progress.
Not sure if Diablo Immortal is the hill I would choose to die on. Because even by normal lootbox standards, it has been noted to be particularly egregious in how much it expects the player to spend in order to get past it's paywalls. Someone calculated how much it would cost to max out your character's legendary gems and the total was $110,000.
F2P users can't even get legendary gems and the chances of getting them are incredibly low. So naturally, gamers have mocked it. They hate it because it is extreme greed in a distilled format. The industry has become obsessed over the past decade with the idea that gamers don't have to be their audience, that they can focus on the few players that are willing to spend thousands upon thousands aka the whales. But those whales still need somebody to go up against and the f2p crowd satisfies that need perfectly. As a result, if you aren't paying, you are the product in these games.
These devs try to lull people (read: children, idiots, and idiot children), usually by making the early game playable without paying. Progress starts out quick or decent, but eventually you will hit a wall where progress slows or stops entirely. The wise players quit then, but many devs try their hardest to "turn players into payers", hoping that they create more whales at best or at least people trying to keep up with whales (or the game itself).
As a gamer, I can't say I have been happy seeing my hobby turned into this. I've seen many a game ruined by this form of monetization; a game that would be great destroyed or at least damaged due to how the game was balanced around the monetization. As a result, I avoid games where the game is balanced around those things. Obviously this means F2P games, but now a days it is starting to infiltrate paid games as well. You can pay full price for a game, pay for it's season pass(es) and still be expected to pay for microtransactions or lootboxes. If the content is purely aesthetic, it's not as much of a problem, but more and more, these things have an actual in-game effect on stats or other gameplay mechanics.
Don't take this as me saying there should be a law or government getting involved. I don't want government involved because I hate lootboxes, I hate lootboxes because government will likely get involved (and I don't want that). The fact of the matter is, that more and more scrutiny is being shown towards lootbox mechanics and other microtransactions not just in the U.S. but worldwide. More and more regulations will come about for it, which on the surface might deal with the lootboxes and such, but I fear they will go further and call for censorship or other things. In the 90's the ESRB was created to avoid government regulation by having the industry regulate itself and clearly mark game content so that people could see whether a game was appropriate for their children or not. When people asked the ESRB to mark games that had lootboxes or other gambling mechanics, the ESRB responded by marking all games that had extra things to pay for, basically any game with DLC. Which made the rating so worthless that it was obvious they were trying to be as opaque as they could about it. People have been warning the industry for years that regulation could happen. That the industry chose to ignore it all and not just double, but triple down on it all, imo, they are just as much to blame, they had to go and ruin it for everybody.
But again back to Diablo Immortal. Diablo Immortal is not the hill I would die on. It's monetization is egregious even for most games of it's type. Do you really think people in belgium or Netherlands are really mourning the loss of the game? Why would a dev choose to outright not sell in a region if all they had to do was remove the gambling mechanics? Is it because perhaps the gambling mechanics were so ingrained into the game's balance or code that they just COULDN'T? At least not without it becoming so apparent.
What are developers going to do when more governments start restricting these mechanics? Are they going to sell two different versions of the game? If Version A with gambling behaves the same as Version B without them, how will that affect the game balance. If you the lootboxes are truly not a big deal in it, then surely people in those regions got a better game then. But if they are a big deal, because the game was balanced around players paying to skip egregious grinds or obtain loot not possible through normal play, then it is obvious neither version is good. Because the version without the lootboxes wouldn't be able to skip those grinds, or obtain that loot, while the side with the lootboxes could but it would cost money.
Or perhaps Version A is different from Version B. Supposed that in Version B you can do everything without B.S. without paying for lootboxes, or perhaps they were treated as a normal in-game thing you couldn't pay real money for. All the while Version A was balanced around paying real money for things that were essentially free in Version B.
Obviously Version B would be the better version. Who would choose the version where you had to pay or deal with grindy B.S. or potentially miss out on certain loot. Most gamers prefer to pay an upfront cost for a complete game, not pay for grind skips and chances to get exclusive loot. I guess whales wouldn't be happy, because then they couldn't just pay to win the game, but on the whole, the complete game with no monetization B.S. is a better game.
Last thing is that if most of the world regulates lootboxes, but one or two countries don't is that only those countries get those games. But I can't imagine most gamers in those countries being peeved about it. These games don't cater to most gamers in the first place. With mobile games, it is especially apparent how different of a market it is compared to console and PC gaming. And no matter how much publishers try to make console and pc gamers like mobile gamers, the existence, popularity, and success of games without all of the B.S. has been an issue for these publishers. As long as those exist and as long as there are developers willing to put out games without monetization B.S. (you can't tell me they would completely ignore those regions), I can't imagine many being upset that they can't play games like Diablo Immortal which at the end of the day is a reskinned mobile game made first and foremost for mobile gamers. More than likely though, if most countries banned lootboxes, you would see developers putting out games without lootboxes. At the least these games would be made where lootboxes could be removed, which imo would be an improvement because it would mean the lootboxes aren't integral to the experience and can be ignored. Alternatively they would not even bother with the lootboxes.
Again, I don't want government to get involved because once they get involved, they will likely want to stay involved and implement more laws. What I think should happen is that publishers first of all, not make games where lootboxes are necessary to progress (no making the game miserably grindy without paying either). They should clearly mark whether they have the mechanics or not, be transparent about their drop rates, and lastly, allow users to filter out games with lootbox mechanics. The last bit would work similar to how Steam allows users to filter games with graphic violence or sexual content. Oh and no FOMO mechanics. The FOMO mechanics are some of the most predatory aspects of modern games. They basically make it so that the player really doesn't have enough time for anything but that game before they miss out. These mechanics are intended to keep players playing that game and nothing more or pay up to skip the grind.
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