In Response to the Uvalde Massacre, Politicians Reiterate Their Demands for Irrelevant Gun Control Laws
Neither expanded background checks nor a federal "assault weapon" ban can reasonably be expected to have a meaningful impact on such crimes.

Hours after Tuesday's horrifying massacre at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer (D–N.Y.) indicated that he favored an immediate vote on legislation that would expand the background-check requirement for gun buyers to cover private transactions as well as sales by federally licensed dealers. Today he seemed to have second thoughts about that plan, which never made much sense to begin with.
Noting that some of his Democratic colleagues wanted to "quickly vote on sensible gun safety legislation," Schumer said: "I'm sympathetic to that, and I believe that accountability votes are important. But sadly, this isn't a case of the American people not knowing where their senators stand. They know. They know because my Republican colleagues are perfectly clear on this—crystal clear. Republicans don't pretend that they support sensible gun safety legislation. They don't pretend to be moved by the fact that 90 percent of Americans, regardless of party, support something as common sense as background checks."
As a response to yesterday's attack, which killed 19 children and two adults, expanding background checks is a non sequitur: The Houston Chronicle reports that the 18-year-old Uvalde shooter, who was killed during the attack, legally purchased the AR-15-style rifle he used last week, which means he did not have a disqualifying criminal or psychiatric record. That was also true of the 18-year-old man charged with murdering 10 people at a Buffalo, New York, supermarket on May 14, and it is typically true of mass shooters. According to a recent National Institute of Justice (NIJ) report on public mass shootings from 1966 through 2019, 77 percent of the perpetrators purchased guns legally, while just 13 percent did so through illegal transactions.
Even for the small minority of mass shooters who have disqualifying records, an expanded federal background-check requirement would not pose much of an obstacle. Data from states with similar rules, which in practice require that all firearm sales be completed via licensed dealers, indicate that gun owners generally do not comply with that edict. "Universal background checks" are universal only in theory.
The main point of an "accountability vote," as Schumer acknowledged, would be to show that Democrats are prepared to do something about mass shootings, even if that thing is unlikely to have any meaningful impact on such crimes. A vote also would show that Republicans are unwilling to take that approach, which could serve as a handy talking point in this year's elections.
Despite their practical limitations, expanded background checks are highly popular (although not quite as popular as Schumer suggested). A 2021 Morning Consult poll found that 84 percent of voters, including 91 percent of Democrats and 77 percent of Republicans, agreed that background checks should be required for all gun sales.
Schumer thinks the popularity of expanded background checks shows they are a "common sense" response to mass shootings. But this would not be the first time that "common sense" was wrong. "It's one thing to say that, regardless of the facts, you should just do something," Sen. Mike Rounds (R–S.D.) observed. "The question is whether something you would do would actually make a difference."
Even when it comes to the much larger category of gun homicides, there is little evidence that broad background-check laws "actually make a difference." A 2019 study found that California's 1991 expansion of background checks "was not associated with a net change in the firearm homicide rate over the ensuing 10 years."
The Uvalde massacre also predictably provoked renewed calls for a federal "assault weapon" ban. "When in God's name are we going to stand up to the gun lobby?" President Joe Biden asked during an emotional speech last night. "When in God's name are we going to do what we know needs to be done?"
One of the things that "needs to be done," according to Biden, is a renewed federal "assault weapons" ban, which he has long supported. "When we passed the assault weapons ban, mass shootings went down," he said. "When the law expired, mass shootings tripled. The idea that an 18-year-old kid can walk into a gun store and buy two assault weapons is just wrong. What in God's name do you need an assault weapon for except to kill someone?"
The implication, as always, was that so-called assault weapons, which are defined based on functionally unimportant characteristics, are uniquely suitable for mass murder and have no legitimate uses. That is demonstrably not true, since AR-15-style guns are among the most popular rifles sold in the United States. Furthermore, mass shooters overwhelmingly favor handguns. According to the NIJ study, 77 percent of mass shooters used handguns. A quarter of the perpetrators used what the NIJ describes as "assault rifles," meaning they had features targeted by the legislation that Biden favors, such as a pistol grip, a folding stock, a threaded barrel, or a barrel shroud.
A gun without those characteristics, such as the "featureless" rifles that remain legal in states that have banned "assault weapons," still fires the same ammunition at the same rate with the same muzzle velocity. It would therefore be surprising if prohibiting those features had any noticeable impact on the frequency or lethality of mass shootings.
In a 2017 column that The New York Times republished in response to the Uvalde massacre, Nicholas Kristof, who supports new restrictions on firearms (including expanded background checks), notes that "the 10-year ban on assault weapons accomplished little, partly because definitions were about cosmetic features like bayonet mounts (and partly because even before the ban, such guns were used in only 2 percent of crimes)." Mary McCord, executive director of the Institute for Constitutional Advocacy and Protection at Georgetown University Law Center, glides over those points in another Time opinion piece published today, conflating arbitrarily defined "assault weapons" with "semiautomatic weapons," a much broader category that encompasses most handguns and many rifles that would not be covered by the ban that Biden supports.
Like Times columnist Gail Collins, McCord, who served as acting assistant attorney general for national security in the Obama administration, seems confused about exactly what an "assault weapon" is. She mentions "the semiautomatic assault-style rifle" that the Buffalo shooter used (a Bushmaster XM-15), but the piece also refers seven times (once in the headline and six times in the text) to "semiautomatic weapons" or "semiautomatic firearms."
Those terms apply to any gun that automatically loads another round in the chamber after the trigger is pulled, so that the weapon can be fired repeatedly without manual reloading. Unlike the features prohibited by "assault weapon" laws, that characteristic is functionally important. But a ban on all "semiautomatic firearms" would be flagrantly unconstitutional, prohibiting myriad guns "in common use" for "lawful purposes," the category that the Supreme Court has said is covered by the Second Amendment. It would cover nearly all of the most popular handguns, which the Court described as "the quintessential self-defense weapon."
Since McCord complains generally about "the ready availability of guns in the United States," her bait-and-switch may be deliberate. If so, that suggests gun rights supporters are right to worry that banning "assault weapons," while relatively inconsequential in itself, is the first step in a broader campaign to undermine the Second Amendment.
Even if McCord is sincerely confused, that is no excuse. It has been more than three decades since California enacted the nation's first "assault weapon" ban, and that policy has been a subject of much controversy ever since. The least that advocates of such laws can do is read them.
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Luckily, this is the magic law that mass murderers will obey.
The prefrontal cortex of an 18-year-old adolescent is not fully developed, meaning they're impulsive. It seems like common sense that if someone this age wants to purchase a gun, we wait at least a few weeks, before handing them a lethal weapon. Why is that controversial?
Because that would do shit in most cases. Also, the prefrontal cortex argument is kind of silly and you're actually misinterpreting the data here. Fully mature doesn't equal better decision making, it equals the brain is no longer developing new synapsis. It has little to do with decision making skills. Additionally, these aren't crimes of impulse, they are almost always universally planned well in advance. Meaning your solution to make a legal adult wait an extra few weeks, due to age (which likely violated the 14A by the way) wouldn't stop very many if any of these types of crimes.
Fully mature certainly does equal better decision making in most humans though there are exceptions. Confusion, depression, self identity issues, and hormonal imbalances are relatively common with the young.
And some older ones if their names is “Joe”, for reasons I don’t understand.
You make claims based on neuroscience, Constitutional law, and crime statistics, but you offer no evidence to substantiate your claims. I find it difficult to believe that you're an expert in all these fields. But even if you're correct, and changes to our laws would do "shit" in most cases, isn't it reasonable to weigh incremental benefits of changes to the law against any supposed deleterious consequences?
So no voting then either
Or abortions. Or entering into contract.
Shouldn't be driving clearly, either.
And not getting gay marriages.
re: "Why is that controversial?"
Because it doesn't actually work. It sounds good. It sounds like it ought to work. But in the places and populations where it's been tried, it had no statistically significant effect. It did, however, increase paperwork, frustration, interactions with police (with the inevitable risk of escalation), cost, etc. Okay, I hear you say that those costs are trivial compared to saving lives - and you would be right if the waiting period actually saved any lives. But it doesn't. It's security theater - all cost with no gain.
Kristoff , McCord, and Biden are not confused at all.
They know very well that their proposals will not change school shootings at all.
I would even go so far as to say they don’t want school shootings to stop.
All of them want the citizens to be disarmed.
So that the citizens can be controlled.
They are part of the elite, and the elite plan on doing things so heinous that the citizens would take up arms to stop it.
The air 15 and other assault rifles are the best way for citizens to fight back against the government.
That is why they want these weapon to be banned
^
Beto thought today was a good day to interrupt the mayor of Uvalde for political help in the governors race against abbot.
https://mobile.twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1529520935237214209
Beto's a vain, narcissistic asshole. Last time he ran, he vowed to outlaw the AR-15. When he announced his run for gov, he vowed to defend the 2A. Now he switched back.
And this stunt probably cost him votes.
Hopefully it cost him a shit ton of votes.
Cops should have treated him like he was a parent protesting CRT at a school board meeting.
Can you imagine? I would laugh my ass off at the video.
If they tazed him, it would have looked like a spider falling into a bug zapper.
Especially if they TASERed him in the balls.
Cops should've treated him like a 25yd pistol target...what a jackass
He didn’t have a shit ton of votes to begin with.
As long as hoplomaniacs start off with the premise that 2A is divinely ordained and cannot be modified, no rational conversation can take place about reducing gun violence.
I am not saying that 2A must be reinterpreted or repealed, only that in discussions about what the US needs to do to address gun violence, refusing to consider any policy that may require a constitutional change is, frankly, moronic.
Feel free to propose a constitutional amendment. At which point we "morons" will consider it.
Your problem is that you really do think we are morons. In fact we are quite smart and know exactly what you are doing. You deny that you want the 2A repealed or reinterpreted and then say we need to consider changing it.
Instead of this concern troll nonsense, step up to the plate. Tell us how you would amend the 2A to "address gun violence". Please.
How defensive. I think you personally are a moron, judging by your response.
But my point which you are too stupid to understand is that if we are looking for a solution to gun violence, which even an imbecile such as you might accept is a problem, we should not ab initio (use Google) insist that no solution to be considered (not that you seem to be capable of consideration) should infringe on the current 2A.
I am open to the possibility that if research suggests that more guns would help, then more guns it is. But if research suggests that an effective policy may require more gun control than 2A currently permits, so be it . And an idiot like yourself would deem such a policy as unacceptable because "muh rightz" as though the right KBA takes precedence over the right to life.
So a fuckwit like yourself is evidently closed-minded, while I am not.
What other amendments do you want to reconsider?
If we repeal the 5th, and give cops the power to judge street thugs and gangbangers guilty and to pronounce a sentence, they will have more power to protect us.
the right KBA takes precedence over the right to life
It doesn't. I have the right to keep and bear arms. I don't have the right to arbitrarily kill you. I go to jail if I do.
"How defensive."
No. It wasn't defensive. It was challenging. I challenged you to not complain about people "refusing to consider" stuff and actually put something out there for us to consider.
"I think you personally are a moron, judging by your response."
Yes, I know you think I'm a moron, which is why you think that the word salad following this quote was somehow responsive to what I said. Given your argumentation, I'm starting to think you are projecting a bit.
"But my point... is that if we are looking for a solution to gun violence...we should not...insist that no solution to be considered ...should infringe on the current 2A."
(Great use of double negatives there, champ.)
Which is why I invited you to tell us how we should infringe upon the Second Amendment. Or do anything. But you have nothing. You just want to call people names. You want to complain about people being unwilling to consider stuff, and then call them names when they invite you to provide something for consideration.
Your rant is nothing but the ravings of a petulant child. "Well we have to *do something*. I don't know what to do, and it doesn't matter because *you meanies* wouldn't consider it anyways."
So, please. Tell us what you want to do. Please tell us about The Science! (tm) you would like us to consider.
"How Defensive" is just troll speak.
Frame the question as though you're trapped and struggling to get out. It's meant to be obnoxious, but generally evidence that someone is not arguing in good faith, rather to cause someone consternation.
Yeah, buddy. Calling people morons and fuckwits is a great way to change minds. And usually an indicator of an inflated sense of one's own intelligence.
My sense of my own intelligence is pretty accurate. What the moron showed in his response is that his thought processes short-circuited the moment I suggested that 2A was not inviolate when it came to considering effective policies for reducing gun violence. I do not believe that what little mind he has is capable of change, given his response.
And of course you never mind when the insults and invective come from your own side.
And now, are you emotionally or intellectually capable of having a discussion about ways to reduce gun violence that does not exclude any way that might imperil 2A?
I have already said that if the most effective policy would require more guns (hence implicitly supporting 2A) I would be fine with it. Can you make the equivalent claim for a policy that would require constraining or amending 2A?
Unless you consider yourself as big a moron as you’ve portrayed yourself here, I highly doubt that.
Your sense of your own mental acuity seems greatly exaggerated. You started out insulting people, and continued to do so. It doesn't demonstrate intellectual honesty or maturity. It also is telling that you continue to defend your dishonest style, which either shows a lack of self awareness, that belies any great mental aptitude on your part, or that you are aware and trying to gaslight everyone.
2A is inviolate, and judging by your writing, intellectually inferior to me.
""My sense of my own intelligence is pretty accurate."
Whew. My concerns are fully resolved.
"What the moron showed in his response is that his thought processes short-circuited the moment I suggested that 2A was not inviolate when it came to considering effective policies for reducing gun violence."
Nah. Some morons ALSO think it the 1A is not inviolate when it comes to non-defined hate speech. Or that the 5A is not inviolate when it comes to prosecuting crime.
Seems to be a running issue for morons.
...which, of course, you are not one. Obviously. You told us and that is what non-morons always do...tell people how they really are not morons.
"And now, are you emotionally or intellectually capable of having a discussion about ways to reduce gun violence that does not exclude any way that might imperil 2A?"
...because removing rights is something only an absolute moron would approve. That is a biggie.
"I have already said that if the most effective policy would require more guns (hence implicitly supporting 2A) I would be fine with it. Can you make the equivalent claim for a policy that would require constraining or amending 2A?"
Why would a non-moron want to forfeit rights? Give us a non-moron answer. Then list the rights you would not willingly forfeit, just so we know where your line is.
Why is it the second amendment that's the issue? Have you considered it may be something else like societal or neural that needs to be address (other things too). Why have you come to the conclusion it's just the 2a that's the issue?
We SHOULD be looking for solutions for gun violence without infringing upon 2A. Nothing objectionable about that. But there's no one size fits all solution. You can't legislate your way out of hunger, poverty, gun violence, etc.
Gun violence is a broad term, and most criminals don't use AR 15 because it's not concealable. To help reduce mass shootings of the nature we saw in Texas and Buffalo, I might be open to raising legal age to buy AR 15 to 21, and limit it to one person. A separate license might be required for gun collectors. Maybe ammo should be limited a bit for younger buyers.
Shootings like this are an absolute tragedy. I was in a dark place all day yesterday, and I'm not that far away from the church where a Chinese nationalist tried to shoot up a Taiwainese church. My parents are Asian, do I have to worry about them now? I'm as anti illegal immigration as anyone here, many immigrants actually are. but I'm not necessarily opposed to some measure of amnesty or stay on deportation.
If and when the republicans take over in the midterms, they should work with the more moderate wing of the democrat party to come up with something palatable. Even trump reacted a bit. We put up some objection to him banning bullet feeding mechanism, but that's something we could live with.
I'm okay with raising the age of majority to 21, but that means voting, contracts, age of consent, and everything else. No age 18 for some things and 21 for others.
So, any other Constitutional rights you wish to suppress? Or just that one?
I love that people who oppose restricting rights are the morons, not the ones who think that paradise is possible only if we suppress more rights.
Maybe because nothing actually needs to be done about it?
Hoplites carried spears. In modern terms it refers to infantry in general, not to firearms.
And the word "thing" originally meant "parliament". So what.
"Hoplophobe" is a recent coinage referring specifically those who hate/fear guns. Consistent with this modern usage is "hoplomaniac".
mental health issue not a choice of weapon issue.
Don't worry, SRG, no gun is necessary to end the cancerous threat you pose.
Where would you like to have a "discussion"?
I pose no threat - except to those whose devotion to 2A is pathological and hence by definition irrational.
Unlike you I am open minded. If a policy under 2A is the most effective way to reduce gun violence, that's fine. If a policy requiring a modification to it would be more effective, that too would be fine - to me. To you, it's blasphemous. Grow up.
How open minded are you on repealing the 5th, 6th, and 8th Amendments?
Would we be safer if cops could pronounce street thugs and gangbangers guilty and torture them as punishment for their crimes?
You are not rational, nor particularly bright.
You're a meritless coward who wants Daddy Gov to tyrannize on your behalf.
You are literally cancer.
You've spent 4 posts now saying change is needed without suggesting what change.
Here is the change I recommend. Understand the world is not perfect and bad things will happen given the number of people in it.
What is your objection to repealing the 5th, 6th, and 8th Amendments so that coos could judge street thigs and gamgbangers guilty and torture them for their crimes?
Your suggestion is a good start, but more concretely we could also get rid of all the blatantly unconstitutional infringements on the right of self-defense.
You don't offer any solutions just poorly veiled insults. You accuse anyone who doesn't automatically agree with you by derogatory epitaphs then wonder why they won't engage in a nuanced, honest discussion. You imply those who support a fairly clear worded amendment are the problems. There is 80-100 million gun owners in the US, 400 million privately owned guns. If you remove a few large urban areas, the US has a gun homicide rate less than most of Europe, which already has strict gun control laws. Almost all guns used in homicides are illegally acquired. The number of self defense use of firearms greatly dwarfs homicides. 99.9%+ of all legal gun owners will never use their gun in any crime, including poaching. Semi-automatic rifles that the media label as assault rifles are the most popular rifles sold in the US, yet all long guns account for only 200 or so homicides a year (that is a category that includes all rifles, carbines, shotguns and muzzleloading muskets). Blunt instruments are responsible for more homicides than all long arms combined, annually. So what per se would work in your opinion? I note you've been asked this by multiple posters, and instead of answering you instead insulted them. It's pretty damn jejune and puerile (Google those words). It's the epitomy of intellectual dishonesty and demonstrative of someone who doesn't really want to have an adult, informed discussion, but rather prefers ad hominems. You've made up your mind and have obvious bias that makes the possibility of a meaningful discussion practically impossible.
Notice how smart and brave SRG was. Call people morons, and insist that they are unreasonable. When people submit that they are ready to reason with him, he tucks tail and runs away. smh.
I don't spend all my time on this site, moron.
You haven't yet answered the question that has been proposed multiple times. Instead you've resorted, out of the gates, to ad hominems. You show no ability to either be open or to tolerate anyone who disagrees with you. You do, however, show all the hallmarks of suffering confirmation bias, which is actually a sign of a closed mind, and is not indicative of great intellectual ability, and is also indicative of someone who lacks the intellectual curiosity and skepticism necessary to honestly conduct analysis.
Your entire response to SRG is ad hominem you simpleton. Cripes what a completely unselfaware fuckhead.
I see you also don’t know what ad hominem means.
I'm still waiting to see some of Joe F's fantastic contracting jobs.
"Your entire response to SRG is ad hominem you simpleton."
Joe one of these days you will learn how to argue in a manner that surpasses a bleating goat. Until then, let me help you out.
When Soldier said, "You haven't answered the question" that wasn't ad hominem.
When soldier said, "You've resorted...to ad hominems", that isn't ad hominem.
Perhaps you should go check out "Logical Fallacies" on teh googles. It might help you.
One of these days maybe you'll get your face out of soldier's butt Overt.
Ad hominem is the coin of the realm on this right wing MAGA site, so complaining about it while spending paragraphs avoiding discussion is less self aware than the normal low bar here. You just don't like it when someone shows up here and who can dish it out.
Poor Joe. I show you your mistakes, and like a good liberal, you fail to own up to the mistakes and just insist it is some systemic thing.
Look, Goat, you said his entire statement was ad hominem and I pointed out it was wrong. Do you really think that, having displayed your incompetence, your insistence that it is "coin of the realm" here is at all persuasive or responsive? Of course not. It just makes your bleating more shrill.
One day, I am sure you'll get the hang of it.
Hi soldier, SRG strikes me as a superficial thinker dismissive of new information, with a narcissistic tendency to rarely correct his own beliefs based on new info. I had a discussion about crypto with him the other day that seemed to reveal this.
You probably do. The likely situation is that lying have neither the cognitive ability, nor the requisite knowledge to successfully counter any posed arguments effectively.
So crawl back under your rock, change socks, whatever. We’re done with you.
"I don't spend all my time on this site, moron."
But I can't help to notice that you spend enough time to make these non-responsive replies, but not to respond to actual arguments.
But you really have convinced me, SRG. You really are projecting when you call others morons. Only a moron would come to this site and spend the time to post that he doesn't spend time on the site posting.
Bravo, dear sir. Bravo.
re: "Unlike you I am open minded."
The evidence in your comments here rather directly contradicts that statement.
How so? I have already stated (now thrice) that if the most effective policy required more guns and hence if anything emphasising 2A, I would be fine with it. And it seems that none of you can bring yourselves to make the equivalent statement in the other direction.
All you lot are behaving as though I took a dump in the punchbowl for not beginning with the premise that 2A must not be altered.
You stated one thing, but your actions, hostile as they were, to the first person who asked you for your solutions, was open hostility and sophomoric derogation. You may believe you are open minded, but your behavior is indicative of someone who has already made up their mind, and is seeking confirmation to prove their own biases.
“was open hostility and sophomoric derogation.”
I think it is safe to say that SRG does have a non-negligible degree of cuntiness to his conduct.
Additionally, you used technical jargon, in order to appear smarter than you subsequent sentences support. But in essence you just called everyone gun nuts, but used superfluous language to disguise your sophistry. This is a self evident attempt to degrade the intelligence of those who disagree with you, while implying yours is the only educated voice. This is either intentionally hostile and inflammatory or it's a subconscious act of someone with narcissistic tendencies. Either way, it doesn't demonstrate a very pleasant picture of your level of self awareness, which means that your attempts to portray yourself as smart and open minded are delusional or false. It very well may be that you have earned degrees, but you hardly seem educated or wise.
Why don;t you argue the issue instead of attacking SRG personally while claiming he's the one who's ad hominem. You are not very bright.
He did.
https://reason.com/2022/05/25/in-response-to-the-uvalde-massacre-politicians-reiterate-their-demands-for-irrelevant-gun-control-laws/?comments=true#comment-9511486
Why don't you spend 5 minutes reading before once again beclowning yourself.
Man. I remember watching all the Dragnet shows on Nick at Night when I was a kid. Good stuff. But you have ruined it. Now, because of you, when I remember those episodes, I only see Blinky the Clown, not Webb. Thanks a lot, Joe.
My post above posted at 1543 hrs also contains several arguments, as well as questions which SRG failed to answer, instead he took the time to launch another series of ad hominems aimed at you. Don't see Joe stalking him.
Is it possible SRG is Joe? Rather the same inane debate style, or lack thereof, and same delusions of grandeur regarding their mental acuity, same narcissistic pathology, as well as a sense of superiority, paired with obvious confirmation bias.
I actually thought that with SRG's first post and then when he labeled you a moron for trying to debate him, it further reinforced my suspicion.
First, policy from government will ever stop all violence.
Second, the constitution has a means to change amendments, laws are not that way.
Third, realize the world is not a utopia. Bad things will always happen no matter how much you scream and yell.
The greatest thing we could do to curb gun violence is to end the war on drugs.
Silence from DC on that point.
Cartels have shown they will transition to the next money making venture quite freely.
A fair point, but of course, most of those money-making ventures are questionably illegal by libertarian standards: untaxed cigarettes, guns (of course), gambling, prostitution.
Even if state sponsored through taxation they will continue to run these things.
See California shoplifting rings as a grand example.
But we don't have to hand them one on a silver platter.
Agreed, and more strongly. Suppose the goal IS to "undermine the Second Amendment?" 2A is obsolete. The current SCOTUS broad interpretation of 2A is unprecedented and pulled from the NRA playbook. Former Chief Justice Burger called the notion of a personal firearm right "fraudulent," and until recent years no American court had validated an individual right. The First Amendment, which unlike the Second is phrased in absolute terms ("No Law"), nevertheless permits regulation as to the "time, place, and manner" of speech. Again, prior to the Scalia/Alito/Thomas majority, the free exercise of religion was subject to similar regulation. Now the Second, which contains that pesky "well-regulated militia" qualification, is being construed more broadly than the first (indeed more broadly than any except the right of confrontation).
Of course, repealing 2A would simply move the debate into the federalism arena where abortion rights are headed. But at least any presumption that firearms are more sacrosanct than female citizens' right of bodily autonomy would no longer put gun control debates out of bounds.
Pretty much everything you stated is incorrect. The well regulated portion wasn't even addressed as the courts ruled that wasn't carte blanche or even a requirement of the Amendment. The shall not infringe portion however is not widely interpreted. Tell me how the 2A is more widely interpreted than the 1A? Do you have to pass a background check to exercise your first amendment rights? Do you lose you 1A rights if convicted of a crime? Do you have to be a certain age to practice your 1A rights? Can states and localities pass restrictive measures on your 1A rights?
It's also wrong that the courts interpretation were that far from previous rulings. The court really never ruled on the 2A, and they few times they did, they never ruled that the right to bear arms was not an absolute right, the same as the other 9 amendments of the Bill of Rights. Generally, the court hasn't ruled at all, but found ways to not rule without striking down the law. The militia clause was not a restrictive clause, but an example clause. The second clause, the rights of people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed was the restrictive clause, and as with all the Bill of Rights, it was a prohibition clause against the state not against the people. Learn the history of the Bill of Rights. As for it being outdated, that's also pure nonsense. Rights don't get outdated. Otherwise they aren't rights.
Also, the Miller decision, which people like you love to cite, actually never addressed the constitutionality of the federal firearms law, instead they addressed if the lower courts had ruled correctly in interpreting that a sawed off shotgun was not suitable for militia duty. They ruled that since shotguns had an extensive history of use in the military, that the lower courts not having taken this into consideration when upholding the conviction of Miller were wrong and remanded the case back to the lower courts. They didn't actually address the militia clause and rather than was a restrictive clause. Miller died before the case could be reheard, and thus the charges were dropped. The case was never settled in other words.
In fact, if you read the writings of the authors, it is clear that they never meant that clause as anything but an example of why keeping and bearing arms was important. It was not meant to define the amendment and was not meant to be the sole reason the amendment existed. Even the term well regulated meant something far different at the time than today. Well regulated meant well armed, so that they could take part in training. Additionally, the militia meant something different than today's definition. The militia at the time was all abled body males between the ages of 18 and 45, who provided their own weapons and could be called up by the state in time of need. They served under elected officers, and drilled when available (BTW this is still the law, that is why selective service is considered constitutional, as it's just calling up the militia in times of need). So, it isn't outdated even by the current selective service law, as you are still considered part of the militia until you pass the age of 45. However, militia service wasn't reserved only to those within the age bracket, but those in that age bracket were mandated, and still are by law, to serve if called up. What the courts did in McDonald was to incorporate the law under the 14A, meaning they made the state's subject to the same prohibitions as the federal government, namely that the rights of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Even the Heller and McDonald decisions though ignored the prohibition 'shall not be infringed' because they left in place laws that banned people from owning guns that are not considered to be in wide use. This is far more restrictive interpretation than any of the 1A rulings, or any other ruling regarding the Bill of Rights. In fact, it should be noted that the 2A is the only amendment that specifically uses the phrase 'shall not be infringed'. This indicates that the writers didn't believe that the government had any right to deny people arms of any forms. Now we get into the stupid argument about what about nukes, tanks etc. Which are silly arguments. The cost of these types of equipment are prohibitive for anyone but Elon Musk or Warren Buffett. The cost of upkeep is also astronomical. Additionally, it is obvious from the history that the writers wouldn't have banned the possession of any weapon, as it was completely legal to own artillery and other weapons besides rifles, muskets and pistols. Several people did. Most cannons were owned by merchant mariners, but it wasn't exclusive to that class either. Actually under the constitution, our current standing military is actually more unconstitutional than me owning an AR-15 or a M1A2 Abrams even. I love people who argue about stuff they obviously haven't studied themselves and try to sound authoritive on the subject.
"It was not meant to define the amendment and was not meant to be the sole reason the amendment existed."
And this is abundantly clear when you see that most of these drafters went back to their home states and helped craft constitutions that were absolutely clear in their support of the individual right to bear arms.
current broad interpretation is pulled from the NRA Playbook? Are you nutz? NRA have sold us down the river on SO many new laws. Nah, you're full of baloney. I've got a jar of mustard here for you, where do I send it?
Whatever happened to the concept that "the security of a free state" rests upon the premise of an ARMED and TRAINED public?
As to this killing in Uvalde.... WHERE were the armed and trained public? Nowhere, that's where. And WHY is this? Wasn't it Unkja joey Braindead Biden who helped get the Certified Deenseless Victom Zone act passed? Oh, wait that was the "Gun Free School Zone" law that made certain NO ONE was armed when the nutjob cracked and went bangbagnbang. Start there, if you want some gun safety laws that will HELP.
I’m sorry you don’t understand plain fucking English or how a prefatory or operative clause works.
"until recent years no American court had validated an individual right."
Slavery was a protected right...until it was not.
Segregation was a protected right...until it was not.
Things change. The 2A verbiage is rather clear. Because prior courts decided to ignore it does not mean all courts must do so in perpetuity.
"The First Amendment, which unlike the Second is phrased in absolute terms ("No Law")"
"Shall not be infringed" is very clear as well. You just do not like it. C'est la vie.
"Of course, repealing 2A would simply move the debate into the federalism arena where abortion rights are headed. But at least any presumption that firearms are more sacrosanct than female citizens' right of bodily autonomy would no longer put gun control debates out of bounds."
Well, guns are way less likely to harm anybody than abortions.
The 2A doesn't need to be modified in order for the USSC to overturn various gun ownership laws. The author is mistaken when he suggests that because past courts have interpreted the 2A in certain way, it would be unconstitutional to interpret it differently in the future.
The "interpretations" that the left favors are not borne from good faith.
In case your search engine is broken, here is the instruction manual;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Five_of_the_United_States_Constitution
no hoplomaniac here, but I do own like and use guns. I have also helped t teach well above a thousand individuals how to safely and accurelty fire a firearm. I personally know well far more than those, and only one of all the few thousand I know has ever fried a gun at a person.... friend had a pharmacy and fired to end an armed robbery. He is a lousey shot, but the guy dropped his bag and ran.
So I wonder where YOU hang out that yuo know so many who shoot firt and wonder why later, who use their guns to mam, harm, kill, and fit the typical descriptioin of "hoiplomaniac"?
You and I seem to know a far different crowd of folks. My crowd are civil polite, generous, compassioinate, eager to help. Your type seem to be eager to fire at will with little to no provocation, only buy guns to kill and maim,
I think I'll keep spending time with my crowd. Far safer, and far more fun to be around. Oh, and most of them have somewhere between a few dozen and hundreds of guns. And yes I am jealous of those with the hundreds.......
Norway police say 24 were targeted in bow and arrow attack
I won der if this is gang related.
I heard he was bit by a moose...
My cousin Sven was once bit by a moose.
Mind you, moose bites can be quite nasti.
yesterday I ran over a dear ... dear friend of mine
We apologize. The person who was in charge of writing the credits has been fired.
I posted a question on Quora and got a n answer.
http://www.quora.com/Juvenile-facilities-have-more-gangbangers-per-capita-than-schools-in-general-Why-do-NOT-most-school-shootings-happen-in-juvenile-correction-facilities/answer/Allen-Mays-1
- Allen Mays (emphasis added)
Someone doesn’t have kids in the public school system…
Reason- "It's not perfect so let's do nothing at all."
Fuck you.
Some things cannot be prevented. That's life.
No, fuck you for wanting to curtail the rights of 99.9% of the population for something that is statistically incredibly rare (no matter how much the media tries to pimp and pump it up).
All violence comes from the inner city, so it is the inner city that should be placed under martial law.
shitlunches - "I'm a pussy who wants mommy government to fix all of my problems"
Fuck you too.
We need a harsh, military crackdown on the inner city.
Remember Stephanie Kuhen.
http://apnews.com/article/d954614e75ceaa692581f6b9cb4146e9
As opposed to "let's do some shit that we wanted to do anyway that wouldn't have stopped this."
It's quite telling that they scream about 'common sense' gun laws when none of the laws they're proposing would've had any effect on this or most any other mass shooting... someone needs to explain to me how this qualifies as 'common sense'
More like "It's not perfect so let's not do anything that makes it actively worse."
It's not merely that the proposals discussed in the article won't completely solve gun violence, it's that they have no possibility of even making it a little bit less. We know this because these measures were tried and failed. We also know that, like most medications, there are adverse side effects.
So 'no benefit' + 'negative side effects' = 'this is a dumb idea'.
Bingo.
Indeed. And in fact nothing can ever be done nor can any change or evolution ever take place. Certainly this article can never be of any value.
We're not asking for it to be perfect. We're asking for it to be rational. And nothing proposed by the left qualifies.
I find it risible that you would make an irrational claim in a (supposed) plea for rationality.
I got it. Wall off Chicago, Detroit, NYC and San Francisco. With just a handful of Democrat-lead cities removed, the US statistically becomes one of the safest nations in the world.
When politicians start saying "common sense" then it's time to watch out. Because they don't possess any.
Ever since I was old enough to understand the issue, I knew what needed to change.
I remember reading and hearing stories about inner city violence, about how children were killed just for wearing the wrong color clothes, or for the shoes on their feet.
There was one instance when a person was killed because gangbangers mistook his sign language for gang signs.
Back then, over thirty years ago, I knew we had the most powerful Army in human history. I knew that we needed to declare martial law, and send in the most powerful Army in human history to quell the violence, like RoboCop’s ED-209.
The murder of Stephanie Kuhen further reinforced my beliefs.
http://apnews.com/article/d954614e75ceaa692581f6b9cb4146e9
The Army should have gone into the inner cities and suppressed the violence at any and all costs. The people there would not be treated art constituents to be served, but as enemies to be subjugated, just like they deserve. I knew then there was a war on our streets, and the war needs to be fought by the United States Army. Given what I knew about the Army then, I know they would win.
I advocated this course of action for over thirty years; there are Usenet posts from me dating from the 1990’s making this argument.
"Ever since I was old enough to understand the issue, I knew what needed to change."
Poor dear never grew up, it seems.
It probably doesn't need to be pointed out, but the idea of invading a place like Chicago- a city with 2.7 Million people- in order to stop some 800 murders a year isn't just insane, it is evil. Collectively treating millions of American citizens like an enemy to be conquered by soldiers is repugnant.
If there is one thing that should be abundantly clear from our adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan, it is that even the best American Soldiers are terrible police or peacekeepers. Not because they are terrible people, but because it is a terrible mission to inflict upon our military.
Letting tgis go on is much worse.
Furthermore, unlike Iraq or Afghanistan, the Geneva Conventions will not apply, so the Army will be free to give these people what they richly deserve.
"Letting tgis (sic) go on is much worse."
No. No it isn't. I would much rather some 12,000 or so people die from gun deaths every year, including 800 Chicago residents, than the basic civil liberties of millions of people being trampled upon.
"Furthermore, unlike Iraq or Afghanistan, the Geneva Conventions will not apply, so the Army will be free to give these people what they richly deserve."
The Constitution would apply, and so yes "These People" would get what they deserve. And when I speak of "These People" I specifically mean the commanders who would dare order such a repugnant thing. They would end up relieved of command and sent to jail.
I truly am glad you have been posting this nonsense to Usenet forever. It means that there is a persistent record tied to you that will ensure you are never ever put anywhere near such a position of authority.
Note, that Gun Deaths includes suicides.
And, anyone who believes the army is the solution doesn't know soldiers. Or policing. Or the extend of our violence problem. Only a scant few are trained in how to deal with policing issues, and they are very different.
Army (and most military) force is a sledge hammer. It smacks things, hard, but is definitely not a tool for subtle adjustments.
The problems of violence seem prominent today, but up to the year before the 'rona upheaval, violent crime decreased every year for three decades or more. The only thing we saw a major increase of was coverage of high profile crime by all of the news-as-entertainment channels like CNN/Fox/MSNBC and the internets.
Using military force to stop a problem that abated and, frankly, wasn't that big of an issue statistically, is an asinine response.
Let us read the article again .
https://apnews.com/article/d954614e75ceaa692581f6b9cb4146e9
What kind of people would open fire on a car that made a wrong turn?
When i first heard about this, I thought the military should have just rained cruise missiles down on the area.
Make no mistake. A sledge hammer is what these people, this community, deserves.
"What kind of people would open fire on a car that made a wrong turn?"
I don't know, Ejercito. Why don't you tell us what "kind of people" would do that. I am certain that you could tell us how to identify "those people" out of a city of millions so that you could round them up with Johny GI, fresh out of Boot Camp.
Enlighten us. How will we know "those people" when we see them?
"Make no mistake. A sledge hammer is what these people, this community, deserves."
Holy shit. President Obama? Is that you? Other than President Wedding Crasher McMurderDrone, I can't think of a single person who agrees with you. If you aren't Obama, you are either a russian bot or a child.
People from those areas, like the area around the "dead-end street claimed by the Avenues gang."
To Johnny GI, it is simple,- if not in uniform, subjugate them.
So every person in Chicago who is not in a Uniform needs to be subjugated?
2.7 Million people are guilty of ~800 deaths a year? Truly you have a dizzying intellect, Obama. Tell me more.
The issue seems more like Chicago is unable to govern itself, not that it needs more people shooting people.
So much for Posse Comitatus.
Who needs it?
This is war.
https://apnews.com/article/d954614e75ceaa692581f6b9cb4146e9
This war has been fought onesidedly for over thirty years. What kind of country are we to not apply maximum force to these vermin?
Oh note that Captain Shit Kicker here says that Geneva Conventions don't apply when it suits him, then says this is war when it doesn't. Very cute.
"these people"
Watch out, asshole. You don't know who all of "these people" are. You don't know that 90% of them are more decent humans than you, and that 80% of them, their evident politics notwithstanding, are armed.
Do decent people open fire on a car that merely made a wrong turn?
Do decent people kill kids for wearing the wrong color clothes?
Do decent people kill kids for the shoes on their feet?
I mean, if the Army refuses to protect us, then they are as useful as propellers on the International Space Station.
"Do decent people open fire on a car that merely made a wrong turn?"
Unless that car was riddled with a million bullet holes then condemning an entire city for the actions of a few is idiotic.
The Seattle incident he is referring to was supported by an entire block for setting up their private security force. So yes they can be condemned for their choices.
No. He is talking about this Stephanie Kuhen incident.
Jesse. This is a crazy racist fucker. Don't defend him.
The Army's job is not to protect it's citizens from crimes or other citizens (except during active rebellion) but to protect the Constitution. What you propose violates several clauses and amendments as well as the spirit of the Constitution. As such, for the Army actually to do what you propose would violate the very job the US military is sworn to conduct.
It is in the oath that every enlisted or commissioned officer takes, that their primary duty is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. As such, what you are asking violates the oath we took when we joined.
Additionally, the Army is hardly trained for this style of mission or equipped. We generally struggle with urban patrolling, and pacification. The last thing you would want in a crowded urban area is an infantry squad engaging street thugs. The Army is based upon maneuver, and trains to be part of combined arms. The job of the infantry is to fix the enemy in place, via maneuver and suppressive fire so that artillery or air support can destroy them. They are equipped to raked land and hold it. To bring maximum aggressiveness into the battle to destroy the enemies capabilities to conduct combat operations. This invariably results in collateral casualties when conducted in an urban center. So, how many innocent civilians are you willing to sacrifice in order to get the 1% that are the problem?
Not to mention the logistics of such an operation would likely require a full brigade combat team, taking them out of rotation for any other mission that may come up. The Army is a proactive force (all the armed forces are) not a reactive force. So, you would need to have checkpoints, roving patrols and raiding to conduct the operation thoroughly. Also, you would need to rotate troops frequently, troops can't stay in constant contact, they either grow complacent or fatalistic. Even during a combat tour, you don't spend your entire time at a FOB, but also spend plenty of time in the rear with the gear. And the mission, by it's very nature would have to be one of indefinite length, because even once you eliminated the current criminal class, what happens after you withdraw? So, you propose we turn our major urban areas into the Battle of Fallujah indefinitely?
Absolutely.
That is what they deserve from their past thirty years' of conduct alone.
Make more mistake, this is war, and they have been fighting it for more than thirty years. It had been time for the Army to fight back for the past thirty years.
To quote the movie The Siege, you do not go after a junkyard dog with ASPCA rules, you take the leash off you own bigger, meaner dog. (That was my favorite quote from the movie)
You don't fucking understand how the army works do you? Let me guess, you've never served a day in your life.
^^ This
"That is what they deserve from their past thirty years' of conduct alone.
Make more mistake, this is war, and they have been fighting it for more than thirty years. It had been time for the Army to fight back for the past thirty years.
To quote the movie The Siege, you do not go after a junkyard dog with ASPCA rules, you take the leash off you own bigger, meaner dog. (That was my favorite quote from the movie)"
Why force soldiers to do it? They certainly have no desire to kill fellow Americans? Why aren't you --- you personally --- out there doing it? Why demand others do what you will not?
+1
Why are progressives always such inhumane fascists?
Go to war on leftists.
They're sure as hell waging war on you.
Go back to Moscow
Go back to China.
https://twitter.com/BillFOXLA/status/1529522333567926273?t=0cxJjGj6TuNOkT41QUDDpw&s=19
Uvalde Mayor Don McLaughlin called TX Dem. Gubernatorial candidate Beto O’Rourke a “sick son of a bitch” after O’Rourke interjected himself into Governor Abbott’s press conference. @FoxNews
That discussion starts upthread from here.
Was that on another one of his appearances on Tucker Carlson?
No, that was when Beto male interrupted a meeting for the grieving families and community to grandstand and politic.
I'll assume the relevance of this will be explained eventually.
Responsible gun owners get more stupid laws rammed up our asses, but...
...school administrators responsible for maintaining a secure school building get off scott-free AGAIN?
...yet another school "resource officer" (whatever TF that means) responsible for protecting the kids and building gets off scott-free AGAIN?
As reported by the NYT:
"Steve McCraw, the director of the Texas Department of Public Safety, said that a school resource officer approached the gunman outside Robb Elementary, but he was still able to enter the school."
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/05/25/us/shooting-robb-elementary-uvalde/faffe096-f65c-5527-8cfe-62a743f6d384?smid=url-share
I wonder if Schumer is open to sensible common sense abortion control? We know he's open to sensible common sense gun control. He's also open to sensible common sense free speech control.
It has been surreal for the last few weeks watching the progressive movement/mainstream media impotently sputter for protection of a right not in the constitution while simultaneously pushing for legislation abridging one that is.
While I fully count on Republicans fucking up an unprecedented opportunity, November can't come soon enough.
Every school I drive by here in Frisco, TX has a police vehicle out front at all times. That's gotta be some level of deterrence. Harden schools further. Turn them from the most vulnerable place a kid can be into a secure one. If school districts whine about budget, propose they cut one DEI admin position for every officer needed.
Schools have all kinds of COVID money to spend, how about using some of it to install mag locks on all exterior doors and give the people that need them key cards, similar to pretty much every office building I've ever worked in? Leave the doors unlocked with a school official present when students need to enter the building but keep the doors locked otherwise - seems like a fairly basic 'common sense' solution that in this case would've actually had an effect unlike all the moronic gun control laws our elected officials want to ram down our throats
More bow and arrow control needed
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10853849/Moment-Norway-killer-fires-three-arrows-revealed-tells-court-wish-theyre-alive-still.html
Classy!
https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1529555038246428672?t=XLiJBiLFPUeO4bpMfFqRyQ&s=19
As we grieve the children of Uvalde today, we should take time to recognize that two years have passed since the murder of George Floyd under the knee of a police officer. His killing stays with us all to this day, especially those who loved him.
STOP LYING.George Floyd is dead because he ingested a four times lethal dose of fentanyl, along with an at least twice lethal dose of methamphetamines. All this IN SPITE of the "drig control laws" in place to "protect" idiots like him.
He'd tried the same stunt previsouly but they caught it in time and revived him. So this time he got his wish.
All those "drug control laws" did not prevent his death.. hmmmmm... spmething about government attempting to control OUR lives, maybe?
I used to have at least a small amount of respect for Obama before this ridiculous tweet but that's all done now...what an asshole
https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1529536215350902785?t=YfL7AN_RCjC1w8NOzcWRSw&s=19
Hi @RepDeanPhillips! Why did you delete this?
[Screenshot]
I think that something as simple as enforcing just one existing gun law could show folks that the Democrats are really serious about gun control. That would be to charge Hunter Biden for a false ATF 4473 (“e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.”), which is a felony. This occurred in 2018, at a time that even Hunter himself, in interviews, his laptops, and perhaps elsewhere, disclosed that he was a crackhead. I hope someone in the world of journalism will ask President Biden about this and that some of the leftist MSM will write about it. When citizens see that gun laws apply to all, they may take them more seriously.
I've read where Saint Michael Moore demands the 2A be repealed.
Gee, I wonder if that would include his armed bodyguards too?
This website is called ReasonDOTcom, yes? So why all the vituperation and ad hominem attacks? So we don't agree with each other; must we then demonize each other?
In any case I would like to see more and better suggestions for minimizing gun violence, especially from the folks who always criticize and belittle whatever suggestions are offered. So background checks and assault weapons bans won't work or will violate the 2nd Amendment or both. Could we please hear some ideas about what will, or might, work?
I do have a suggestion which I admit is far-fetched. Perhaps the NRA, firearm manufacturers, firearm sellers et al. could put forward a comprehensive plan for meaningful gun violence prevention, especially prevention of mass shootings in schools. We would all agree to try out this plan for, say, ten years. If there are vanishingly few or no school shootings during that decade, the plan remains in effect. If there are nearly as many school shootings as we've seen during the decade that began at Sandy Hook, the plan is scrapped and its supporters willingly get behind plans put forward by others. Far-fetched perhaps, but where would be the harm in trying it?
respectfully, your theory centers the debate on the weapon not the mental health of the killer.
Surprise surprise, people get heated when you start talking about curtailing their natural rights. Especially ones actually enumerated in the Constitution.
WHY do you (and many thousands more) do NOT know about precisely the programme you suggest? In the wake of the Sandy Hook school incident, some folks in Ohio decided to grab the bull by the horns and wrassle it to the ground. They did it.
The FACT is that in every successful school shooting (and any OTHER "successful" mass killing, for that matter) the ONE factor that is universally present is a DISARMED DEFENSELESS victim pool. Answer: Simple. Allow adults who already carry their personal firearm everywhere they go for protection of themselves and others but CANNOT carry them at school because of laws prohibiting it, volunteer to receive intensive specific training to better equip them to defend the schools whilst they are present. Hundreds volunteered, took the training (a full week of intensive hands on practical stuff including dealing with attacers in non-lethal ways, and first aid for those who may be hurt) qualified in accuracy with the same handgun they carry everwhere else they go except at school.. then they went to the State legislature and got some laws changed to enable those who wanted to and who took the training to ALSO carry at the schools where they worked every day. Hundreds completed the training. NO ONE nows who is and is not armed at any given point in time, but the fact that all the adult staff COULD be armed has returned a VERY interesting record: since the programme began, toward the end of the same school year Sandy Hook occurred, NOT ONE gin-related incident has occurred in any school district that has participted in the programme. PERFECT record.
So how can smaller school districts afford this? Easy... the organisers solicited support, volunteer trainers, ammunitioin, targets, training space and time, etc. It cost the Ohio taxpayers NOTHING. Not one dime. Return? In the years since this programme went live, there has not been ONE gun related incident at ANY school in any district where this plan was put in place. Two thousand involved schools had not one gun related incident in the 12 or so years since it was put in place.
This could, and should, be done nationwide.
THEN all schools will be hardened targets, and no longer worth the risk of targetting.
The ONLY laws that woud need to be changed are those that prohibit other than law enfrocement to be armed at schools. Simle change, the legislature discussed for a short while and voted the changes in. To take effect immediately.
Not that I’m doubting you, but because school shootings are exceedingly rare already, I’d like to know what the stats were like prior to implementation of this. I think it’s a fantastic idea, but don’t want to be tooting the horn if they hadn’t had any incidents the 10 years before or what have you.
This is a great idea and certainly more 'common sense' than any of the proposed gun control laws the left seems fixated on...
"So background checks and assault weapons bans won't work or will violate the 2nd Amendment or both."
We already have background checks. Have had them for years. Those of us who know what we're talking about do get tired of having to rebut the same false info provided by people who have never tried to get a gun in their lives.
And a ban on "scary looking guns" (or, as you call it, an assault rifle ban) is pointless. The gun in this shooting was not an assault rifle, a term that does not actually define or describe anything outside of "it looks scary"
The only thing that would work is hardening the school and allowing staff to conceal carry (if they desire)
A fence around the property, one guarded entrance, one guarded exit, and fire doors alarm if opened.
Uniformed armed guard and concealed carry by some staff will be sufficient to stop crazed gunmen
If you want to solve a problem, you first need to identify the problem and analyze it. Politicians routinely skip these steps. So, let’s talk about some things that may make a difference.
- Mass murders almost always grew up without a father. That suggests that encouraging the two parent nuclear family can make a huge difference.
- The large increase in murders has NOT coincided with a large increase in guns. On the contrary, murder rates declined for decades as the number of guns increased. What has coincided with the increase in murders? 25% of criminals in our prisons have been early released in the last 3 years. Prosecutors in big cities with some of the highest increases in murders have been releasing criminals faster than the police can arrest them.
These would be some fact based places to start.
It seems that some of the posters, in attempting to show that they are not morons, have shown the opposite.
I did not ask for suggestions of policies, nor is it incumbent on me to suggest any. Indeed, I think we need some high-quality research (of the kind that the right refuse to fund for fear of what it might find) so that any policies that are devised are based on evidence not feelz. And if that suggests more guns, I'm all for it.
What I did say was that to have a rational argument, you cannot start off with the premise that 2A is inviolate and refuse to consider anything which runs counter to that. The US Constitution is not the Law of the Medes and the Persians nor did the FFs think it was.
Apparently some of you don't understand what I thought was a simple point. Seppoism can lead to brain damage, it seems.
Fine then.
Suppose we reconsider the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th Amendments.
Would we be safer if we let the cops judge street thugs and gangbangers and torture them as punishment for their crimes?
No one is claiming it's inviolate, meaning that it can't be amended in accordance with the Constitution. What we're claiming is that it clearly means what it says, and it says what it means, so an amendment is necessarily to gut the general protection.
If you don’t want the 2nd Amdt go be inviolate, then propose and amendment to it. But it is already a lot more explicit than it is inviolate already. The wording of the amendment itself doesn’t give politicians the wiggle room they have already taken. It’s pretty explicit that gun control measures are unconstitutional. Yet courts continue to allow even some onerous ones to flourish.
Just a wild idea; maybe crazy people don't care what the law says.
Dear Mr. Sullum:
Thanks for telling us what won't work. Meanwhile, as I look at this month's (week's?) photos of grieving mothers, I'd rather not accept the status quo. (I know, how "un-Reason-able" of me, looking at pictures.)
Rather than devolve into the Onion's headline ("No way to prevent this, says the only nation where this regularly happens"), could you propose a *solution*?
What would be a *relevant* gun control law -- something that would cut down, eventually, the number of firearm-related homicides (and suicides) in the United States? Thinking outside the 2A "box" -- would the most effective laws require amending or repealing the 2A? (Aside: CA has roughly half the firearm mortality rate of TX.)
No, what’s unreasonable is letting your emotions control your actions and demanding solutions to something from people who will never be affected by the policies they try to force on the rest of us.
Yes, it would require repealing the 2A. Those other countries don't treat gun ownership as a right, but as a privilege. That's the primary difference. If you treat it as a right, you can't just deny it because you have a "hunch" that someone is a bad seed. In Europe, they can. They can deny a permit for basically any reason they want.
"A 2021 Morning Consult poll found that 84 percent of voters, including 91 percent of Democrats and 77 percent of Republicans, agreed that background checks should be required for all gun sales."
I think it likely that what Republicans by way of expanded background checks is very different than what Democrats are thinking of.
Democrats want to make all gun sales go through licensed firearms dealers with all the paper work as if the dealer was the seller, forever accessible to the ATF.
Republicans on the other hand are likely thinking of making the instant background check system directly accessible to private sellers. IIRC: the last time the Democrats were talking about universal background checks, several Republican congressmen proposed a bill to do exactly that.
And the Democrats fought it down. The reason being that the goal is not to actually make things safer, but to create a de facto registry and burden and inconvenience law abiding people.
Having to drive to a store and pay $40 to do a transfer is a feature, not a bug.
Anybody, including numerous "new" posters here, who wants to disarm you and the general public should be considered an imminent threat to your life, and be treated as such.
Indeed, it’s their fault this happens in the first place. They’re behind the emasculation and drubbing of American schoolboys. Which is the root cause. Guns are just tools.
So as always, the democrats are at fault. And as always, they have another river of blood on their hands. So to the leftists here, go ahead, come at me you pieces of shit.
I dare you.
No other developed country has the problem with mass shootings or gun deaths as the US, but somehow we can't figure out what the problem is. What could it be? Gee, I am at a loss. Can you guys figure it out?
Meanwhile the 2A is moot, based on an archaic concept called the militia which was to be organized and trained by the Congress and under it's direction to put down insurrections, etc.
"Clause 15. The Congress shall have Power * * * To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions.
Clause 16. The Congress shall have Power * * * To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress."
Abyone belong to this organization, heard about it's meetings for training, etc? Yeah, me neither.
Your 2A is based on a non-existent 18th century concept which is gone, dead, not happening!! Any SC judge not making shit up out of thin air will see this and poof! No right to bear arms. Hey, we'll compromise. We can bear arms, but no more walk in and buy military weapons meant to kill humans to be used on 4th graders and no more untraceable unregistered purchases. Probably a good idea to require 21 years of age to purchase. You never grown up fuckers can keep playing cops and robbers and "army man", but not with real assault rifles. Got it? That's the future. It will take awhile but we'll get there.
Fuck off, slaver.
"Meanwhile the 2A is moot, based on an archaic concept called the militia which was to be organized and trained by the Congress and under it's direction to put down insurrections, etc."
Yes, the founders who had just overthrown their own government and then passed laws in their states insuring that the citizens could do the same...did not really mean it. Sure.
Quite bluntly, GOP needs to campaign on overturning the NFA in full. Let the 2A do what it should do.
"Clause 16. The Congress shall have Power * * * To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.""
The2A is a relief for citizens for when the government --- you know, the Congress et al --- become too overbearing.
Government should rightly fear its citizens.
"Any SC judge not making shit up out of thin air will see this and poof! No right to bear arms. Hey, we'll compromise. We can bear arms, but no more walk in and buy military weapons meant to kill humans to be used on 4th graders and no more untraceable unregistered purchases. Probably a good idea to require 21 years of age to purchase. You never grown up fuckers can keep playing cops and robbers and "army man", but not with real assault rifles. Got it? That's the future. It will take awhile but we'll get there."
So, no voting until 21 as well, right? No military service until then also, right?
Ban "untraceable" purchases? Solid plan. Laws against illegal things NEVER fail to be followed scrupulously.
And plenty of things can harm 4th graders. If you want that to be the cut-off point, computers are gone, too. Drop that on a 4th grader and it'll hurt the kid.
What you are claiming damik is that the Founders were not smart enough to write clearly what they intended and what they clearly wrote is that the militia is under the training and command of the government you claim they viewed with suspicion.
Additionally, this militia no longer exists and hasn't for a very long time, so the right is moot.
Things of harm to 4th graders of no value to society, like military weapons when not in the possession of the military, should be eliminated if possible. Those of value to society, like cars and beaches, should not be eliminated especially when safety practices can mitigate much of the threat,
PS Missed:
You can't drink in many states until 21.
Laws don't usually eliminate whatever harms they are intended to curb, but unless done poorly, will curb them.
Congratulations, this comment officially makes you dumber than Tony.
As noted by others, the article is an argument based on the idea that no efforts should be made since we can't eliminate the problem.
In real life we never eliminate problems, we try to mitigate and lessen them. This same crowd helped talk people into not getting vaccinated for Covid which cost about 300k lives lost unnecessarily because it was not perfect and hey people were still catching it. Ignorance can be bliss, but also fatal.
Yeah but democrats like to do whatever they can to virtue signal to their base and keep the problem intact so they can virtue signal more later on. Doing nothing seems viable compared to that.
This same crowd helped talk people into not getting vaccinated for Covid which cost about 300k lives lost unnecessarily because it was not perfect and hey people were still catching it. Ignorance can be bliss, but also fatal.
"I could've saved those people's lives if only they'd listened to me. Ignorance can be fatal."
^Says the "Kinetic Energy is the sole factor in determining a weapon's lethality" retard.
Another thing I never said that mad "quotes" me on. He likes to argue with himself apparently.
Facts:
The unvaxxed were way over-repped in the dead from covid, leading the count in both red and blue states. The CDC estimate about 300k died needlessly as they would most likely lived if vaccinated,
ER docs - some vets - attest to the excessive damage from AR-15 like weapons compared to most handgun wounds they treat and this subjective experience - witnessing physical evidence - and it is explained by the fact that AR15s fire high-velocity rounds and that damage is explained by the laws of physics which says KE = mass/2 * velocity squared. Also making the situation worse is the fact that the smaller mass of these rounds means lower recoil, which means the shooter maintains better control, large magazines, and semi-automatic operation.
Argue with that mad.
So, by Biden's own statements, he should be removed from the Presidency. He said anybody who had 200,000 die should not be President. He exceeded that by a lot.
You mean a rifle harms more than a handgun? Shocking.
Biden with good reason did not foresee educated and literate Americans turning down a free life saving vaccine. He apparently overestimated people like you.
His bad.
Because hes a husk without principles. They usually don’t expect others to have concepts such as bodily autonomy or critical thinking. I feel your pain, loser.
Hey dolt! How many of those deaths occurred before a vaccine was available?
The estimated 300k unnecessary deaths are specifically those who died after the vaccine became available. Of course those before would not count as avoidable for this reason.
No. It's not based on the idea that no efforts should be made. It's based on the ideas that all of the proposals not only won't even partially help the problem, but will actively make things worse.
It's like an obese guy needing to lose weight, and telling him he should eat more ice cream. When we respond that that will make him fatter, you say "WHY DO YOU WANT TO DO NOTHING? WHY DO YOU NOT WANT HIM TO LOSE WEIGHT!?"
Raising the age for purchasing weapons to 21 would have stopped this shooter and several others and making AR15s and similar weapons illegal would have made a shooter less lethal and less a threat to whatever law enforcement was on site.
Raising the age to 21, okay fine. Any other rights you want to curtail of legal adults? If you want to do that, make the age of majority 21. Fine with me. But no "adult for this, but child for that."
What is a "similar weapon?" Any magazine fed semi-automatic rifle or handgun?
Glad we agree on raising the age to 21.
Assault weapons like the AR15 should be defined as follows, if we wish to be effective in banning them:
Semi-automatic compact high velocity capable rifles with large magazines (a size would be specified).
The law could also prohibit handguns modified to the same guidelines.
PS Drinking ages have been set at 21 in many states for a very long time with no effective challenges.
Define "large" magazines. Capacity and all. Exact numbers
And then let's discuss how rarely rifles are used for killings, given the size and all.
I love that the "all cops are evil" crowd also want to insure that only cops have guns.
As I noted above, size of magazines negotiable though we could start with <6.
Assault rifles are used repeatedly in mass shootings like the recent one. Most Americans find the numbers of these appalling, and unlike gang shootings which are largely avoidable depending on your behavior, completely random and therefore rightly terrifying. If you wish to justify them as less deadly than the numbers of gun deaths in crimes, you are cheering for more of the latter as justification while also ignoring the problem we have with those compared to other countries similar to ours.
I have not said nor do I believe all cops are evil. In fact, a very close relative is a prosecutor responsible for locking up multiple criminals, including murderers and he works very closely with law enforcement and has been awarded commendations from their departments, not just his. We are very proud of him.
So you're defining an assault rifle as any magazine fed centerfire rifle?
Which goes to show the majority of leftists screaming for an assault weapons ban basically just want to ban all semi-autos...and don't let them in on the fact that pretty much any detachable mag firearm could be fitted with a high cap magazine, not just ARs etc
I only will agree to raise the age to 21 if the draft goes to 21 too, as well as voting rights and abortions. If you want an abortion under 21, you should need parental consent.
So, do illegal immigration next.
The Wrong Question
A male, Latino adolescent walks into a middle school with a rifle and a pistol. He starts shooting, murdering Latino children and two teachers. Big Media and others immediately begin seeking motive, hypothesizing about ill-defined mental illness.
They ask, “What was his state of mind?”
“Wrong question!” says this commenting Board-certified psychiatrist.
Biobehavioral Science, of which few Americans have heard but which is the foundation for the social system in China, tells us to look for objective answers by asking about Context and the ABC’s.
https://www.nationonfire.com/biobehavioral-science-2/ .
Few mass murderers or serial killers are female? Accordingly, firstly ask, What sex is the killer?
Secondly, ask, What is the context? A discussion of such follows herein.
Thirdly, ask, What are the Antecedents preceding and the Consequences following the Behavior?
In this case, the Antecedent for the homicidal Behavior was an argument with the killer’s grandmother, whom he shot. Then, under stimulus generalization his aggressive Behavior became redirected at the school. Redirected aggression.
What was the reïnforcing Consequence for each pulling of the trigger? The death of each victim.
Provable, objective, factual ABC’s. Not unprovable, subjective, hypothesized mentalisms.
Let’s return to context. As with all behavior, the controlling, independent variables are biology and environment. In this case, the biology is male sex. The environment?
As described in this commentator’s most recent novel, Retribution Fever, the killer’s general environment is a fragmenting, declining nation on fire that has shed its cohesive, unifying force by abandoning God and losing its soul. Asking how is a question for another time. It has become a lunatic asylum with the lunatics running the asylum. Yet, there is evil method to this madness.
Violence is everywhere, promoted by those whose goal is to destroy completely the vision of our Founding Fathers. This particular killer became an imitator of the violent lunacy surrounding him — violent lunacy such as other shootings that functioned as models. Previously, his overall behavior increasingly had come under the control of violent video-games via the Internet — vicarious reïnforcement.
In a way, the killer himself is a victim. The real killers of those Latino children are those killing this nation. Can we stop them? Yes. How? Had patriotic Americans the courage, by whatever means necessary. Then? A scientific answer you will find in the aforementioned novel.
People in other developed countries have similar cultural issues including violent video games, etc. They don't do this. See if you can figure out the singular and obvious difference.
People in other developed countries don't have the same rights and privileges we do in this country. If you believe another country is better, you are free to go there!
They have very similar rights excluding our gun rights, for which we pay too much and which could be sensibly modified while maintaining the right of citizens to possess them.
So why not move to one of these countries and leave the US alone? That's what I don't understand when people say we should be more like European countries...why not just relocate to said countries instead of trying to tear down the constitution of this one?
“Similar” is a nice euphemism. Most of them are way worse than NY or California. And that says a lot.
We must close all beaches, lakes, swimming pools and bathtubs this summer to prevent even the possibility of child drownings!
Children and families by the millions enjoy beaches, lakes etc. I don't think anyone had any fun in Uvedale except the shooter.
Guns are not the problem. In Europe, they use cars for their killings. Or actual guns, whether lawfully or not.