Will a Conservative Supreme Court Turn on Gay Rights After Dismantling Roe? Be a Skeptic
Gorsuch just penned an important pro-LGBT decision two years ago. Americans are largely not interested in relitigating this issue.

The belief that Roe v. Wade (1973) is set to be overturned, based on a leak of Justice Samuel Alito's draft opinion of Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization Monday, is leading to questions about whether other well-known court precedents are at stake, particularly on LGBT issues. Will a heavily conservative Supreme Court rethink Obergefell v. Hodges, the 2015 decision that made same-sex marriage recognition the law of the land? Would a conservative court go so far as to toss out Lawrence v. Texas, the 2003 decision that overruled state-level sodomy laws and essentially recognized a right to sexual autonomy and privacy among consenting adults?
When I say "leading to questions" here, I actually mean "somewhat panicky quick-hit analyses." To start with some clarity, while Alito's draft is authentic, we do not yet know whether other conservative justices have signed on to support this version.
Who agrees with Alito's decision may matter seeing as the text of Alito's argument leans heavily on a claim that Roe v. Wade is a mistaken ruling. He states that America did not (until this decision) have a history of treating abortion as a right; it had frequently criminalized it throughout history. And while the Supreme Court does set precedents that acknowledge unenumerated rights the courts had not previously recognized, Alito argues that such rights have a long history of being "deeply rooted in this Nation's history and tradition." Thus, abortion does not fall into this category, according to Alito's opinion.
Neither does gay marriage or recognition of gay rights, so it's natural to think that Alito might want to extend this argument further. Alito, after all, dissented in the Obergefell case. He references Obergefell at one point in the opinion and adds, "These attempts to justify abortion through appeals to a broader right to autonomy and to define one's 'concept of existence' prove too much.… Those criteria, at a high level of generality, could license fundamental rights to illicit drug use, prostitution, and the like.… None of these rights has any claim to being deeply rooted in history."
It may be logical to believe that Alito is saying that gay marriage is also potentially in danger because it cannot claim to be "deeply rooted in history." There are several fearful analysis pieces today suggesting LGBT-friendly Supreme Court decisions are threatened.
I think the fears are somewhat misguided. In the context of the opinion, Alito is noting that those who are defending abortion rights are doing so by turning to more recent precedents because older precedents prior to Roe v. Wade are not helping make their case. That's the context of the Obergefell reference. And he notes that abortion is clearly different from these other rulings because "Abortion destroys what those decisions call 'potential life' and what the law at issue in this case regards as the life of an 'unborn human being.'"
Furthermore, his opinion leans heavily on the fact that Roe v. Wade has failed to actually resolve conflict about abortion, and citizenry, lawmakers, and the courts themselves remain polarized and divided about abortion regulation. The same is not true for gay marriage or LGBT issues in general, current culture-warring notwithstanding. Americans now support gay marriage recognition, while abortion remains as polarizing as ever.
While Alito may not agree with previous LGBT rulings from the court, this opinion is careful not to question their validity. That justices like Neil Gorsuch and Brett Kavanaugh reportedly are part of the majority here may explain some of the hedging. In 2020, Gorsuch wrote the majority decision in Bostock v. Clayton, which extended federal anti-discrimination protections to gay and trans workers. Gorsuch is a textualist, but most certainly not a traditionalist, and his decision was based on the reasoning that discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation was a version of discriminating on the basis of sex. He ended up on the opposite side of Alito, who had dissented based on his position that Congress did not mean to include sexual orientation and gender identity when they passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
As for Kavanaugh, he also dissented from the Bostock decision, but he wrote his own dissent and specifically did not join Alito's. Kavanaugh didn't embrace Alito's traditional conservatism but instead believed that the majority's textual reading of sex discrimination was wrong and that common legal usage of the word "sex" treated sex discrimination and sexual orientation as separate categories. He and Alito agreed that it was up to Congress to decide whether to add sexual orientation and gender identity protections to civil rights law, but the reasoning was different. Alito was looking at historical attitudes, while Kavanaugh was looking at how the law currently used the terms.
All of this is to say there's still very little evidence that Gorsuch, at least, is going to want to reverse course in just two years and suddenly turn hostile toward gay rights. Kavanaugh's break from Alito even when dissenting also suggests he doesn't look at gay issues the same way Alito does. And none of that is even getting into the kind of legal and contractual problems that would take place should the Supreme Court suddenly decide that states can simply refuse to acknowledge more than half a million same-sex marriages.
We are in the midst of a very obvious culture war conservative backlash on LGBT issues, and it's worth taking note and pushing back on its more oppressive policy prescriptions. But conservative justices are not the same as conservative politicians. It does not appear that there are the votes to roll back gay-friendly precedents, and it seems clear on close reading that Alito knows it.
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The backlash is a responce to your groomer apologist psychosis.
The unenumerated right to fuck kids and kill babies.
The summary of the alito draft was "we are conservatives nya nya nya" huh scott?
Such deep logic and reason.
"These attempts to justify abortion through appeals to a broader right to autonomy and to define one's 'concept of existence' prove too much.… Those criteria, at a high level of generality, could license fundamental rights to illicit drug use, prostitution, and the like.… None of these rights has any claim to being deeply rooted in history."
Obviously, Alito doesn't get out much, does he?
He sure as hell won’t be now. He’s in mortal danger from democrats.
The backlash isn't on LGBT issues, it's squarely on T issues. And even then it's mostly about children
There is no real reason why sexual identity has attached itself to sexual orientation.
Hell, if anything, it's hostile to gay and lesbians, because it seems to assume if you are a feminine gay man, you aren't really a gay man, but you should be a woman. Same thing for butch lesbians, there's a push to make them men
it seems to assume if you are a feminine gay man, you aren't really a gay man, but you should be a woman. Same thing for butch lesbians, there's a push to make them men
Hell, you don't even have to be gay or lesbian. If someone's an effeminate but straight man or a "Tomboy" woman there seems to be a push to convince them that they're really trannies.
My wife brought this up this morning. She was a straight up Tom boy as a little girl and resents the fuck out of people who try to tell her that somehow she wasn’t a girl.
Not much is sexier than a good looking tomboy.
100%
"The backlash isn't on LGBT issues"
Sure it isn't. Social conservatives love the gays and want them free, always have. In fact marched side by side for gay rights against the Democrats.
But, do want to use government to make it illegal to acknowledge the existence of same sex couples in schools. But that's just protecting the children – while conservatives do love gays absolutely, they are also realistic about the fact that the main thing gays want to do is molest kids.
"But, do want to use government to make it illegal to acknowledge the existence of same sex couples in schools."
Given that nobody is doing that, I do not see any need to humor your delusions.
And why does the Left seem to believe that any attack on pedophilia is an attack on gay men? Do you HONESTLY think all gay men are pedophiles? I do not, but you seem convinced.
"Given that nobody is doing that"
Oh yes of course. Big wink. Just "prohibits classroom discussion about sexual orientation". Completely different!
The usual level of integrity.
"why does the Left seem to believe that any attack on pedophilia is an attack on gay men?"
(Assuming per local custom that by 'the Left' you mean those who support individual and civil rights...)
Because supporters of such legislation claim that you are battling pedophilia by banning discussion of the existence of gay people.
"Oh yes of course. Big wink. Just "prohibits classroom discussion about sexual orientation". Completely different!"
Given that, apparently, you know none, I'll let you in on something:
All gays are NOT pedophiles. The vast. vast majority are not.
"(Assuming per local custom that by 'the Left' you mean those who support individual and civil rights...)"
BWA HA HA. Yeah, the Left is ALL about individual and civil rights. Sure. Hold on to that one. The Left only dislikes free speech, gun rights, free assembly, non-racist admissions policies, etc.
"Because supporters of such legislation claim that you are battling pedophilia by banning discussion of the existence of gay people."
Except the legislation has nothing to do with gay people. At all.
We get it. You think all homosexuals want to fuck children. Shame you are as ignorant as you are, but you're free to make an ass of yourself. It seems to be a gift.
"All gays are NOT pedophiles."
I appreciate you taking such a progressive view on this. Truly. Though you did sidestep the point obviously.
"the legislation has nothing to do with gay people. At all."
It literally "prohibits classroom discussion about sexual orientation". Sorry to not play along with your shtick here.
"BWA HA HA. Yeah, the Left is ALL about individual and civil rights... [rant]"
Well I didn't say it was my definition, just trying to translate from your language. You categorized my argument as "left wing" because it is pro gay rights, here. Feel free to explain why you categorize in this way, and why you don't actually associate civil rights views with the Right (despite occasional pretense to the contrary in this thread).
All sexual orientation, including heterosexuality. And it doesn't forbid all classroom discussion, just forbids it until 3rd grade WITHOUT parental permission. You don't even know what you're arguing.
No, not "all sexual orientation", of course. You aren't seriously claiming you expect schools in Florida to stop talking about concepts like heterosexual couples, "mom and dad", etc.
I didn't make any claim about parental permission, I made a comment about the types of laws the folks who claim they 'have no problems with LGBTQ' want to pass.
But for the record, obviously the effect on speech in classroom is chilling by design. The threat is that any parent could sue the school if their kid hears about the gays.
By all means, continue to show your boundless support for the LGBTQ community in similar ways.
"No, not "all sexual orientation", of course. You aren't seriously claiming you expect schools in Florida to stop talking about concepts like heterosexual couples, "mom and dad", etc."
Law forbids it. And parents would prefer to not have teachers discussing it with their kids.
"I didn't make any claim about parental permission, I made a comment about the types of laws the folks who claim they 'have no problems with LGBTQ' want to pass."
We have no animus towards any of them. Long as they do not demand I lie on their behalf, I could not conceivably care less about what they do.
"But for the record, obviously the effect on speech in classroom is chilling by design. The threat is that any parent could sue the school if their kid hears about the gays."
If it is taught in an age appropriate way, it is no issue. If parents are informed, it is no issue. The problem is that the activists masquerading as teachers did not do so and then bragged about it online. LibsofTikTok was a God send on this --- simply broadcasting their videos they published and admitted all of it.
"By all means, continue to show your boundless support for the LGBTQ community in similar ways."
While I am loathe to speak of a group I am not a member of...Gay folks do not want their kids groomed either.
Thank God for government making the children safe from frightening things I saw on the internet and that I supported with ad viewing and subscriptions!
Was it the teacher talking about grooming second graders to be sexual furries, or the one about teachers putting litter boxes into bathrooms?
Can't wait to hit the lever and get a new outrage pellet in my dish right after I finish commenting here.
We never discussed any of that when I went to school. Ot until long after third grade.
Amazing number of people claiming they never heard of even men and women being romantically interested in each other until "long after 3rd grade". I really suspect you did, and just don't want to remember that you did, now.
"All gays are NOT pedophiles."
I appreciate you taking such a progressive view on this.”
This is not a progressive view. Are you retarded?
Are you slow?
"It literally "prohibits classroom discussion about sexual orientation". Sorry to not play along with your shtick here."
There are more orientations than gay.
"Well I didn't say it was my definition, just trying to translate from your language. You categorized my argument as "left wing" because it is pro gay rights, here. Feel free to explain why you categorize in this way, and why you don't actually associate civil rights views with the Right (despite occasional pretense to the contrary in this thread). "
No. It's just viciously anti-parents rights while simultaneously insulting gay people. Your arguments are Left because they both attack individual rights while insulting people you profess to be protecting.
Government employees should not be trying to find out what makes students horny. It is none of their business if they like boys, or girls, or furries, or whatever their kink is - it is not the business of government employees to investigate the sexuality of children. That's grooming.
Acknowledging that gay people exist does not require going into graphic detail about what gay people do or don't do. Detailed questions should simply be deferred to the parents.
"Hey, Teacher, what does 'gay' mean?"
"Ask your parents, Johnny, and focus on your math problems."
Wait, which gay flag is that? What happened to the more Hugo Boss inspired one?
Do flagmakers have to make gay flags now?
I didn't know flags could be gay. I've always thought that was reserved for living organisms.
What happened to the more Hugo Boss inspired one?
Would that be this one?
Huh... that was supposed to be a reply to Diane Reynolds (Paul.). Not sure how I fucked that up. I guess the reason server squirrels don't like nazi jokes.
Nazis aren't funny... Except for will ferrel and Mel Brooks in the producers... And Sgt sholtz and col klink... And the Nazis in top secret...
And Goehring...
It's been a while since I've seriously watched Hogan's Heroes, but Sargeent Schultz and Colonel Klink never struck me as hate-filled "True Believer" Party men.
They seemed more like going-through-the-motions career guys who were just born on the wrong side. They were never too hard-assed on Hogan and his diverse fellow operatives. Even when Colonel Klink said:
"Heil Hitler," it was in a very tired, perfunctory way that was like, "Yeah, whatever!"
I remember seeing Werner Klemperer on Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In and he said pointing to the camera: "You Bet Your Sweet Bippy!...And that's an order!" 🙂
How about an actual libertarian position on gay marriage? The government shouldn’t have anything to do with it outside of enforcing contracts, and it should be up to each individual church who gets married there.
^this
fuck government sanctioned gay marriage and fuck government sanctioned straight marriage
Seriously.
I don't identify by my sexuality. I don't even think in terms of "I am a straight man" but just that I'm a man.
I don't care who you like, who you want to marry, who you want to fuck. What I really want is to be allowed not to care. To be allowed not to think about myself in any specific term. And I don't understand why the government has to be involved.
A "marriage" contract is just a contract. Let people sign such a thing if they want for shared custody, to co-own a house, or whatever and I don't care who those people are and don't need to know about their sex lives.
Honestly, I'm all for the right to not give a shit.
Honestly, I'm all for the right to not give a shit.
It is indeed liberating.
It is, and unlike Giggly Geigie Goldie, you do it without a bunch of accidentally self-revelatory "protests too much, methinks" argle-bargle, so you're doing it right. You're a good egg. 🙂
The question is: Why do you give a shit whether he gives a shit or not? Why does his indifference make him a "good egg" specifically?
The fact is, you not only care, you want others to care and you want them to care in the way that you prefer.
So much so that apparently anyone who does otherwise would not be a "good egg."
Those criteria, at a high level of generality, could license fundamental rights to illicit drug use, prostitution, and the like
Yes.
While we're at it, let's just go full on panic mode:
Will dismantling Roe lead to:
Reinstitution of slavery [as in "they want to put you all back in chains!"]?
Loss of women's right to vote [Handmaid's Tale a come'n!]?
Add as you see fit.
Agree, seems like a bit premature daydreaming.
Lots of emoting and panic to go around from both of the tribes.
Biden starts a Disinformation Governance Board, which is a continuation of previous bureaus, and suddenly it's MINISTRY OF TRUTH.
SCOTUS overturns Roe v. Wade, and suddenly it's HANDMAID'S TALE.
More and more it seems like the two tribes are governed not by ideology but by emotional overreaction.
you dont need to be in either tribe to be very disturbed by the Ministry of Truth.
Biden starts sticking people into camps, some which are very scenic and in beautiful wilderness locations , and suddenly it's the SOVIET GULAGS.
You forgot "Protest on Jan 6th - suddenly armed insurrection"
"Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!"
Pretty sure it will lead to Yellowstone super volcano erupting. I mean, why the fuck not?
stop submitting yourself to state definitions of what married is and live with who you want.
And, if you're gay, be prepared to sacrifice $363,053 (Windsor case) to the government in inheritance you would otherwise get at the passing of your partner, because refusing to submit yourself to state definitions is just that easy.
still not the horrific oppression they want us to think it is.
Make a trust. So what.
"still not the horrific oppression they want us to think it is"
"They"... perhaps we are supposed to believe your oppression is much worse.
A modern Dr. Seuss will helpfully pen a new book "Oh! The things They will force upon you!", with the memorable page where a fuzzy scrub is watching a gay couple walk down the street holding hands, with a sad and deflated expression.
Here's reality, people don't give a fudge about it, but are wondering what the fascination is with talking to school kids about anal sex?
Especially when school teachers are overtaking the priests in messing with children, but if that's the hill you want to die on....
shelter your money in different ways and live with who you want dude
and so we're clear I'm not being anti-gay I'm being anti marriage in general.
It is called writing a will. You can give your money to whomever you want. You just have to write a will. The government recognizing your marriage restricts your ability to do that because your spouse gets a forced share of things.
The truth is exactly the opposite of what you are implying here.
^ +1 excactly
If the government recognizes marriage, then under current federal tax law, then the amount you pass on to your spouse (which in many states could be everything you own) wouldn't be subject to federal estate tax. Do you think this is a bad idea, and that Uncle Sam should get his share of everything owned by the dead spouse (after the estate tax exemption, of course--now set at $12.06 million)? If you don't, then you have to concede that government must be in the business of deciding what couples it will recognize as "married" and eligible to inherit spousal property tax-free.
"You just have to write a will"
And if you don't – your bad, the government gets your money if you are gay.
Sounds enlightened and libertarian.
"The truth is exactly the opposite of what you are implying here."
Of course, it is not. However, I am accustomed to using a different and old fashioned definition of "truth" relative to the modern Orwellian norm.
Did that sound enlightened to you? Like you made some valid point, because anyone no matter what sexuality is under the same dilemma.
"anyone no matter what sexuality is under the same dilemma"
The entire point of the Windsor case was otherwise. Marriage protected the money but the state would not recognize same sex marriage.
Quick web search before you comment can avoid these outcomes.
“And if you don't – your bad, the government gets your money if you are gay.”
If you don’t write a will, the government can fuck with your wealth in all manner of ways, regardless of your sexuality.
It’s amazing to me the stupid fuckers your employee sends here because it’s a big abortion day, but you should report back that they’re wasting their money sending you idiots for us to ridicule, despite the small size of this commentariat. They’re better off leaving us alone.
Lying is a poor way to advocate for your cause.
How about we get rid of the federal estate tax instead?
Might the elimination of abortion rights, if it comes to that, be followed by the Supreme Court reversing those cherished by some, Gay Rights? Be interesting to see how “conservative” this conservative Supreme Court actually is.
Ogberfell was a bigger mess and a more ridiculous decision than Roe. If there isn't a right to abortion in the document, there is sure as hell isn't a right to "marriage to the one (but not the two because that is icky) you love" in the document.
Gay marriage is likely to go down sometime in the next few years.
Given that Gorsuch recently wrote a pro gay rights decision...no. And few wish to relitigate it.
which "gay rights" are upheld by the Supreme Court other than marriage?
The right to consensual sodomy. It was illegal to be gay in this country for most of its history.
ha it's funny i was not even thinking of that; it's so fundamental. but you're right. And if I remember correctly the usually-on-point Scalia dissented on the Texas case about it.
He said it would lead to court mandated gay marriage recognition and was called a bigot and a paranoid for it by people like Shackford .
Not only was Scalia not wrong, they actually referred to his dissent there to justify Obergefell.
and also if i remember correctly the sodomy laws applied to straight people too. You could be a hetero married couple but it's illegal for your wife to give you a blowjob lol
They did but they were almost never enforced in straight contexts outside of rape. Straight people were never rounded up for engaging in sodomy in parks or thrown into jail for living together openly. Gays were. So, it was mostly about gays even though the laws were written to apply to both.
On the contrary, straight couples living together openly were prosecuted for "lewd and lascivious cohabitation." Gay couples living together openly were (assuming they didn't bugger each other in front of open windows with no curtains) regarded as roommates.
That's just all the more argument to get rid of laws against consenting adult sex, not an argument to uphold them.
Way to beg the question genius.
That would have been the proper response from SCOTUS.
Only in bathhouse situations.... those people really should be elongated one way or another.
" Straight people were never rounded up for engaging in sodomy in parks"
Mostly because straight people were not hanging out in public parks taking all comers.
"Consensual sodomy" really has nothing to do with homosexuality other than it happens to be the primary mode of sex between gay men.
Government marriage serves two functions; it forces married couples to live by a set of contractual agreements dictated by the government should they ever dissolve their marriage and one party decide to avail themselves of these provisions and it allows married couples to force everyone to recognize their marriage. How "Libertarians" decided extending this corrupt bargain to gays as well as straights was necessary for "freedom" is a mystery known only to "Libertarians". The libertarian moment is apparently a man sodomizing another while the public watches and applauds with the police holding a gun to their heads.
That said, for once, Shackford manages to be right about something. Yes, the backlash is likely coming for the gays. It shouldn't have to be that way. It is likely going to work out that way because gays have decided to associate acceptance of their lifestyle with transgenderism and corrupting children in school. The backlash is most certainly coming for that insanity and gays, since so many of them are like Shackford and just leftists, have allowed the left to make their cause and transgenderism one and the same.
the sodomy and the marriage are unrelated.
Obviously libertarians are perfectly fine with gay people having sex. what are you on about?
Government recognition of gay marriage is like all government regulation of marriage a restriction on freedom; both the freedom to contract and the freedom of private organizations and individuals to choose what marriages they recognize as valid. So, expanding government marriage to include more couples is restricting freedom.
I don't know how to make it any clearer than that.
I have been on record several times expressing my utter disbelief that so many liberal institutions have allowed themselves to be co-opted by the trans agenda. I saw it in young adult literature and even in movements like CHAZ and now schools. And BLM. And Womens Sports
And as near as I can tell this has always been worse on the members of the organization. Trans activists make a movement about them. So you see these trans women bullying women like Jk Rowling. You see the head of Chaz stepping down because of reports that she was beating her (non trans) girl friends. And BLM writes its mission statement to include trans rights. And now women are losing the sports they worked so hard to create for themselves.
I don’t know what it is about being trans that makes trans women become total bullies. I can only assume it is caused by having the normal impulses of dominance as a man while being shielded from the consequences due to intersectionality.
We are in the midst of a very obvious culture war conservative backlash on LGBT issues, and it's worth taking note and pushing back on its more oppressive policy prescriptions.
There the LGBTQIA2
*sigh*
There the LGBTQIA2+ movement was, minding its own business when... ALL OF A SUDDEN!
and it's worth taking note and pushing back on its more oppressive policy prescriptions.
Notice here that Shackford has resigned himself to only being able to push back on "its more oppressive policy positions", whatever those are. How much things have changed from the heady days following Ogberfell when everything seemed to be coming up gay.
It's not even the gay thing, it's the fucking trans thing. America, even fairly staunch conservatives had pretty much made peace with gay issues, including gay marriage.
Then all of a sudden, your daughter had to share a changing room with a 240lb testosterone riddled dude with a 5 o'clock shadow because he "declares himself a woman", everyone's pronouns had to be respected or you found yourself drummed out of your career, your job, and all public life, and top female athletes were getting shoved aside by a muscle-bound middling male performer who had a spot of therapy and testosterone blockers. And if you opposed any of the above, you were a "phobe" worthy of cancellation everywhere.
It is totally the trans thing. But Shackford like every other public gay man in the country it seems has gone full bore with associated gay with trans even though one has nothing to do with the other. Like I say above, the backlash is coming for the trans BS and the gays are going to get swept up in it because people like Shackford have decided "gay" and "trans" are the same thing.,
There is a great deal of misery in being homosexual. Not always, obviously, but a simple inventory of all the homosexuals I know - family, friends, coworkers says that this is on average a more unhappy lot as compared to the rest of the people I know. An observation that is also commonly confirmed by homosexuals about the other homosexuals they know.
We can argue the chicken or the egg aspect of what the root cause may be. It is undeniable that homosexuality is not usual, but there are plenty of other aspects of human existence where being unusual is not automatically a source of unhappiness - e.g. high intelligence, or family wealth. Likewise it is not the social norm either, but again violating some norms does not automatically create negative externalities, and can even be rewarding in many ways - e.g. fame . Likewise it is most certainly unnatural, at least in the sense that as members of a sexually reproducing species it does tend to interfere with the natural means of reproduction. Yes there are alternate ways to create, or raise children but again this is at least unusual, if not also abnormal.
Like it or not the net effects of all of this seem to lead people who are, or choose to be, homosexual (for the sake of this argument it really does not matter which is the true case) to associate a certain amount of unhappiness with their sexual identity.
Meaning that it is often so ingrained in their psyche that they will continue to seek out a sense of oppression and victimhood even when their own circumstances might allow them to do otherwise.
If your confused 8 year old decides to go trans at school and you deny them puberty blockers you are an abusive parent and the state will try to take your kid away from you. It's gotten that bad.
All the conservatives are like "what happened to just being gay is ok?"
The left can’t ever stop. Period.
And I like how it's "conservatives" who are pushing back.
Let's just ignore all the lefties and left-wing feminists who stood up and said, "Hold the fuck on for two gotdamned minutes!"
To be fair, Shackford calling it a backlash is a pretty explicit acknowledgement that it is a reaction, not due to people just minding their business. Indeed, when most people talk about "backlash" it is in contexts (like the Iranian Revolution) where the people receiving the backlash are getting it because they took things too far.
And I think that is a fair characterization of the current situation. It wasn't enough that they got legal acceptance. The Gay and Trans wanted to punish cake makers. They didn't just want tolerance, they wanted their views on queer and trans issues taught in schools, over the objection of their parents.
Does some of the backlash go to far? Perhaps. But that's how backlash works, and if the Trans community (and the liberal allies who have been enabling their excess) had any self reflection, they would understand the role they played here.
They don’t learn lessons.
It is perhaps a lesson for any and all marginalized groups that when the institutional left/critical theory/Cultural Marxism crowd takes up your banner it is at best a double edged sword.
Because they really do not care about you, especially not you as an individual, and even as an identity group you are only a means to an end. And that end is most certainly not your end.
"We are in the midst of a very obvious culture war conservative backlash on LGBT issues"
We are most certainly NOT. T only -- which isn't remotely similar to LGB, no matter how the communities try to lump them together.
And the Constitution has jack shit to do with any of it.
Scott is a drama queen. Sheesh
Hey Scott, are you even married to be concerned about your marriage being nulled?
My husband and I are married on paper but more importantly in our hearts. F*** the government.
I’ve heard a number of gay people express that sentiment. That they don’t identify with tranny’s and feel zero kinship with them.
It strikes me that eliminating the concept of marriage as a state sanctioned institution is a far simpler way of dealing with that issue.
We can still have various means of providing child support. As for alimony, the whole notion of state sanctioned alimony seems like an artifact of a sexual division of labor that no longer exists.
I would surmise that this would also simplify various ways of passing on property and also late life/hospital choice decisions. I think the notion of setting up sorts of powers of attorney would simplify that.
Of course, people can still have weddings or whatever and churches and secular organizations can make them "certified" but the government gets out of the picture.
That's ridiculous. Marriage was about the second thing that the original civilizations came up with and may even predate that. Let the gays marry... the o decision was utter garbage though and needs a new opinion that makes it make sense, where polygamy, incest and bestiality (and quite probably pedophilia) aren't implicitly condoned. (But still held to be illegal because reasons)
"I think the notion of setting up sorts of powers of attorney would simplify that."
It's not simply a notion, it is a reality in every State that I am aware of. the terminology may differ - healthcare surrogacy, healthcare advocate, guardian, conservator, etc. (POA tending towards being the weakest of the bunch.) But the practical effects are the same. The law establishes an order of primacy in such matters and if you wish it to be otherwise then a mechanism exists for you to make this known and enforceable.
e.g. in Florida while the law says you cannot exclude your spouse from more than 2/3rds of your estate, but you can exclude them from any involvement in your healthcare by filling out a boilerplate (literally in the statute) healthcare surrogate form in the presence of witnesses.
It is almost as if the LGBT activists know tgat Obergefell and Bostock were poorly reasoned decisions,...
...or they are indulging their penchant for melodramatics.
Both, probably.
Live by judicial fiat...
Yes, they will. They will also demand dirty air, dirty water, and force everyone to give up their chicken in their pot, and then demand that you turn over the pot to the government.
Interesting assessment of the Supreme Court justices.
Another matter to consider is the road to the Supreme Court. In order to overturn Griswold v. Connecticut, an existing law banning contraception would have to be enforced or an new law would have to be enacted. To overturn Lawrence v. Texas, an existing sodomy law would have to be enforced or a new law would have to be enacted. To overturn Obergefell v. Hodges, an existing law against same-sex marriage would have to be enforced or a new law would have to be enacted.
What's the probability of a prosecutor enforcing any existing law on these matters? What's the probability of a legislature enacting a new law on these matters? Even if these scenarios happen, the law would face a multitude of court challenges, and then the Supreme Court would have to decide to hear it. What's the probability of that happening?
Food for thought.
I would expect the sexual autonomy granted by Lawrence v. Texas to be found as "deeply rooted in history" and upheld. That is the kind of right the 9th Amendment was intended to protect.
As for gay marriage, that's a harder question. I would rule that it's up to each state whether to let gays marry there, but that the "full faith and credit" clause (Article IV, section 1) requires all states to accept the fact of a marriage legally done in another state.
Social conservatives hate the right of privacy. They say there's no such right in the Constitution. They overlook the Ninth Amendment with says that rights not enumerated shall not be denied.
The late Robert Bork called the Ninth Amendment an inkblot on the Constitution. I wonder how he would explain his position to James Madison, the architect of the Constitution, who introduced the Ninth Amendment along with the other amendments that became the Bill of Rights in the First Congress. Alexander Hamilton opposed a Bill of Rights because he was concerned that rights not enumerated would be denied. No doubt Madison took that into consideration when he introduced the Ninth Amendment.
Since the "full faith and credit" law does not apply to firearms ownership and concealed carry, I don't see any reason to apply it to marriage either.
How about it apply to both guns and marriage? Let's get some "Tastes Great! Less Filling!" action going!
Iconic Ads: Miller Lite - Great Taste, Less Filling - commercials from the 70's & 80's
https://youtu.be/EwrcwwbSGFc
Of course the Republican SCOTUS will go after gay rights next. Anyone saying otherwise is absurd. Remember: Constitutional Calvinball.
Yeah, they’re gonna put all the fags back in chains, just like before the civil war! C’mon man!
It would be interesting to see how Ginsburg would have voted on this since she was not a fan of Roe v Wade from a legal perspective.
“Measured motions seem to me right, in the main, for constitutional as well as common law adjudication. Doctrinal limbs too swiftly shaped, experience teaches, may prove unstable. The most prominent example in recent decades is Roe v. Wade. Suppose the court had stopped there, rightly declaring unconstitutional the most extreme brand of law in the nation, and had not gone on, as the court did in Roe, to fashion a regime blanketing the subject, a set of rules that displaced virtually every state law then in force . . . A less encompassing Roe, one that merely struck down the extreme Texas law and went no further on that day, I believe and will summarize why, might have served to reduce rather than to fuel controversy.”
SOURCE: Ruth Bader Ginsburg, “Speaking in a Judicial Voice,” New York University Law Review, December 1992.
So many of these discussions about what counts as a real right don't ask, "what right has the government to legislate on this?" That should be the starting point, IMO.
Why should anyone get special "gay rights". Isn't it enough to have the same rights as everyone else?
I hope so because it's actually important to let people marry who they want to. I'm glad that people are starting to understand that, and it's more acceptable nowadays. Even when I check websites like cougar lovers dating , I stumble upon lgbtq dating sites, and it's great that such websites help people find love.
Even if at one time the majority of people found homosexuality to be gross, deviant, perverted, etc., people's opinions change over time. At one time Native Americans were though to be barbaric savages, black people were thought to be incapable of being civilized like white people, Chinese were thought to be opium-fueled weirdos, etc. It took a while, but these attitudes have all changed for the most part. Who is to say that in a few decades' time, no one will have a second thought about the concept of two men getting married?
Do you and your big, burly, buff, bodacious Russian Bear Ivan have something to share with us, Giggly Geigeie Goldie?
It's normal for members of any species to be opposed to anything that reduces the chances of that species reproducing and surviving. Those species that aren't tend to become extinct.
Who is to say that in a few decades' time, no one will have a second thought about the concept of a horny old man and a frightened young boy getting married?
I wonder, if we do find the genetic cause for homosexuality and transgenderism and that there was an easy test in utero and treatment for it, how ethical it would be to reverse it? Or even as they approach adolescence? If being gay and trans creates so many mental issues, as the left claims, that we must force everyone to accept them, wouldn't treating these be more humane?
I guess it's like the debate about "curing" autism. My life would have been a fuck lot easier if I weren't autistic. Shrug, it's all a mental game anyhow, and in no way reflects what I feel. It's just a question I find interesting.
Further, if you could identify homosexuality in utero, would it be moral to get an abortion, the same as some maintain abortion is moral in the case of downs?
I put that question forward years ago. Try it with leftists. It enrages them.
That’s the democrat goal.
Why does this idea seem only to bother conservatives if the sexes are the same? End all forms of child marriage first, whether the girl is pregnant or not. A girl getting pregnant earlier than she should is no reason to add an elderly husband to her misery.