The New York Times Admits That 'America Has a Free Speech Problem'
"Many on the left refuse to acknowledge that cancel culture exists at all," laments the paper.
The New York Times published a terrific editorial on Friday that takes note of "America's free speech problem" and points to both right-wing legislation and cancel culture—enforced by an uncompromising strain of progressivism—as culprits.
"For all the tolerance and enlightenment that modern society claims, Americans are losing hold of a fundamental right as citizens of a free country: the right to speak their minds and voice their opinions in public without fear of being shamed or shunned," wrote The Times.
The editorial includes a predictable (and mostly well-deserved) condemnation of conservative attempts to legislate away uncomfortable discussions about sex and race in schools. But it stands out for directly attacking the left's censorship impulse.
"Many on the left refuse to acknowledge that cancel culture exists at all, believing that those who complain about it are offering cover for bigots to peddle hate speech," wrote The Times. "Many on the right, for all their braying about cancel culture, have embraced an even more extreme version of censoriousness as a bulwark against a rapidly changing society, with laws that would ban books, stifle teachers and discourage open discussion in classrooms."
More:
The full-throated defense of free speech was once a liberal ideal. Many of the legal victories that expanded the realm of permissible speech in the United States came in defense of liberal speakers against the power of the government — a ruling that students couldn't be forced to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, a ruling protecting the rights of students to demonstrate against the Vietnam War, a ruling allowing the burning of the American flag.
And yet, many progressives appear to have lost faith in that principle. This was a source of great frustration for one of those who responded to our poll, Emily Leonard, a 93-year-old from Hartford, Conn., who described herself as a liberal. She said she was alarmed about reports of speakers getting shouted down on college campuses. "We need to hear what people think even though we disagree with them. It is the basis of our democracy. And it's absolutely essential to a continuing democracy," Ms. Leonard said. "Liberal as I am — a little to the left of Lenin — I think these kids and this whole cancel culture, and so called 'woke,' is doing us so much harm. They're undermining the Constitution. That's what it comes down to."
In truth, the editorial reads like it could have been written by someone who works at Reason. (Rolling Stone editor Noah Schachtman cited it as evidence that I now "own the NYT ed board." If only!) The opinion pages of The Times host a diversity of viewpoints, of course; just last week, the paper published a guest essay by Emma Camp, a University of Virginia student and Reason contributor, about the culture of self-censorship she encountered on campus. Camp's piece generated a massive backlash on social media from the very sort of cancel-culture-denying liberals The Times is criticizing in its editorial. As Politico's John Harris put it, "The torrent of mockery that greeted her on Twitter made the case about the hazards of saying something unpopular more persuasively than she could have imagined."
As with Camp's op-ed, The Times editorial has caused some liberals' heads to explode. Here is an incomplete sampling:
https://twitter.com/adamdavidson/status/1504808498646949889
Dear @nytopinion: I served on active duty to defend the right of any person to say stupid, racist shit. That doesn't mean I have to respect or coddle people who say stupid, racist shit. I have the right to shame and shun people who say stupid, racist shit. Get it New York Times? https://t.co/vPEyp9jmxD
— Ted Lieu (@tedlieu) March 18, 2022
Retweet if you want the New York Times to add more columnists who write about the rise of fascism instead of adding more who always complain about cancel culture.
— Wajahat Ali (@WajahatAli) March 18, 2022
If the New York Times doesn't want people being shamed or shunned for bad opinions, they can help by no longer running columns by Dowd, Brooks and Stephens.
— Kevin M. Kruse (@KevinMKruse) March 18, 2022
This is appalling. The both-sidesism of The New York Times comes out in full force from its editorial board as it equates the left criticizing hate and the right burning books. Pure moral panic. A ????. 1/ https://t.co/0zQumjCIHh pic.twitter.com/XdqznFrBR3
— Jeff (Gutenberg Parenthesis) Jarvis (@jeffjarvis) March 18, 2022
If anything, people are angrier about the editorial than the op-ed; an op-ed reflects only the views of the writer, whereas a staff editorial speaks with the authority of the entire paper.
Of course, there's nothing particularly odd about The New York Times taking the ideological position that free speech is of vital importance to American society and democracy; that the legal protections of the First Amendment and a broader culture of social tolerance are both desirable norms; and that social progress is generally well-served by maximally permitting free and open discourse. In fact, this was the default position of most liberal-minded writers, thinkers, and publications until very recently. Self-described progressives who react with apoplectic fury every time The New York Times counsels against total abandonment of enlightenment principles are really the odd ones.
By now, it should be impossible to ignore the ill effects of free-speech hostility; what appeared to begin on elite college campuses has spread to broader society and is agitating for a world where the act of dissenting from progressive orthodoxy is treated as violence—and thus can be met with force. Indeed, colleges campuses continue to provide some of the most palpable examples of this phenomenon: Earlier this month, Yale Law School students shouted down a conservative speaker and a liberal one—as well as the school's own officials—in order to prevent a discussion about a recent Supreme Court case. (David Lat, an attorney, legal commentator, and Yale graduate, described the incident as "much worse" than many people know.) The student activists' philosophy is by now familiar to everyone who has paid attention to higher education for the past decade: Speech that perturbs progressives or their allies is illegitimate and should be prevented.
This philosophy must be countered by everyone who claims to hold liberal values. It is a relief to know that the Gray Lady still has some fight left in her.
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The editorial includes a predictable (and mostly well-deserved) condemnation of conservative attempts to legislate away uncomfortable discussions about sex and race in schools.
What specific legislation Robbie?
Not teaching k-3 students about sex and tucking? Not allowing the teaching of race divining your outcome in society?
(Rolling Stone editor Noah Schachtman cited it as evidence that I now "own the NYT ed board." If only!)
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That's the same Romney who called Tulsi Gabbard treasonous for pointing out the truth about the war in Ukraine! That Romney - who I voted for once - will never receive my vote ever again! He's just another turn coat!
In truth, the editorial reads like it could have been written by someone who works at Reason.
Well, maybe someone who worked at Reason ten years ago.
A libertarian, gay-married gay man myself, I am shocked and dismayed that Reason - whom I've followed since Poole began it - would continue to equate the political censorship by the Techlords of the Deep State with parents efforts to keep the public schools they pay for from forcibly indoctrinating their [captive] children with Cultural Marxist dogma, like CRT, 1619 Historical Revisionism, and grotesque perversions like "Drag Queen Story Hour". Legislation dragging the 'Gender Vendors' into K-12 public schools is not "protecting free speech, nor are the new bills banning it any assault on the 1st Amendment. Anything taught for Social Engineering purposes in public schools is government propaganda, to a captive audience. Let there be 'woke' private schools - though there is an argument that the sexualization of pre-teens constitutes Child Abuse, anywhere - but government schools are not commissioned to explore kids "gender fluidity". It is not "Book Burning" to keep graphic pornography out of textbooks those parents foot the bill for. Have you lost your damn mind?
Idk what the deal is here - hit up your PTA if you want to effect change at the local level. I can’t tell - are you against gender fluidity - as if it’s not real? I suppose there should be some debate as to when a child could potentially know when they aren’t the gender they were anatomically born with, but it seems to happen around middle school. Kids should be educated of this fact by then. Free speech is an entirely different issue and shouldn’t be packaged with propagandizing school children. If that’s what you’re saying, I’m on board, but I think it’s not the outrage inducing problem this article is highlighting. Let’s just get rid of corporate personhood and the chips will fall into place.
"uncomfortable discussions about sex and race in schools"
I would say thats a nice euphemism for grooming young children and sexual indoctrination in kids who likely havent even jerked off before, and nazi-era racial determinism/essentialism.
Schools pay people to talk. That isn't free speech but rather a performance. If you paid for hip hop you would be upset is what you got was country, and even more upset if you were told that complaints were fascism instead of consumer feedback.
Teachers are paid to teach what the school district decides, and the district should be answerable to the taxpayers.
It is of course very telling that probably their number one criticism / cudgel they use is "racism" with "fascism" being a close second, and I havent in my life seen a more racist and fascist person than an AWFL who just finished a Robin Deangelo book.
But if we start talking about a certain type of culture that is holding back a certain community, that's an uncomfortable type of conversation that we're not allowed to have, right?
Bingo. The pedos don’t want us shutting down their recruiting camps.
If the same teachers had approached students in a chat room the cops would be rushing to incarcerate them.
There is good reason that racial essentialist discussions are uncomfortable.
Ya, but it is only 'uncomfortable' in one direction - you point to behavior that isn't in line with "Racist!" then you have these same people yelling "Racist!" at you.
You point out BLM is ran by a bunch of proclaimed Marxists and should have a counter view if its going to be used in school curriculum (BLM Week of Action), the Democratic Party (the left in general) are screaming bigot at you.
This is a hallmark of the modern left. No one has the right to comfort...except for leftists. Everyone's boundaries must be respected...except those leftists want to violate at will. Everyone must be included respectfully...except when leftists want to scapegoat and exclude anyone. And so on.
There is no good reason for “racial essentialist discussions” at all. The only way to eliminate institutionalized racism is to actually eliminate institutionalized racism.
If we don't allow schools to teach the bullshit 1619 project, we're silencing dissent or something.
Robby, man, you're one of the saving graces of this publication, but you really need to avoid talking out of your ass. You need to avoid broad sweeping claims; if you've got specific criticisms of speech on the right, you need focus down and nail the problem for what it is instead of demuring toward the "Both sides" default. Actually look into the supposed problems you have with the right and their attempts to ban CRT.
This would take critical thinking, a nuanced view, and stepping away from the white-collar/soft hands left-leaning viewpoints that dominate left-leaning thought. The point that Rico seems to miss isn't that the nyt is stunning and brave, and the usual braying fuckwads are upset. The point is that the nyt has again tried to pull right-wing abuses in when pointing out shitty behaviors in their camp. This is the modern left, and progressivism. They will not accept criticism unless the evils of right are somehow, and nearly always via false assertions, included. This speaks of an entire population on intellectually immature dipshits, but that has been clear for quite some time.
I came to ask the same. I'm not a "conservative", but this has mostly incorrectly been lobbied at the "parent act" in Florida and isn't remotely correct to anyone who read the bill. So, I would love to know what books/bill, exactly, they are referring to.
The discussion about the Parent Rights in Education act in Florida is pure propaganda. I'm saying this despite having read it and having some specific issues with the third article because I think the wording is vague for confusion, which can lead to overly broad interpretation.
I think it's problematic and wrong, and I STILL side with the Republicans on it because the histrionics from the left are pure insanity. They're not outright lying to me about the bill, and I could probably convince many on the right to see my side of it in a rational conversation. The left refuses to have a rational conversation.
Tough to have a rational conversation when you believe teachers should be sexually grooming children under 10.
Well there's this hyperbole, too. That's not what the majority of people raising a ruckus are angry about. They're upset because they picture this as some sort of third-world bigotry against gay people. They believe a falsehood that it's telling students that the only legitimate relationships involve a male and female and nothing else should exist.
The problem I have with it is that kids can be precocious about certain things. Beyond that, there's plenty of nonstandard families now, so little Billy might wonder why his friend George has two mommies but no daddy. A teacher should be allowed to give a neutral answer that sometimes women want to marry women, and sometimes men want to marry men. Now, to my mind that's probably allowable the law since it's not specifically teaching anything about gender or sexuality, but a teacher could potentially face a lawsuit for something as simple as that.
The majority of the people raising a ruckus fully agree that we should be sexualizing 5 year olds so of course that's not their objection.
Yes that should be taught, it’s normal throughout the entire animal kingdom despite no way for homosexuality to be genetically passed down through reproduction. Kids should know this as a matter of fact / maybe even before kindergarten. No teacher should be threatened for making accurate observations of evolution. Saying a kid has two dads is no more sexualizing than saying the kid has a mom and a dad. There’s no implication of sex to a kid whatsoever. And here’s another thing: your kid isn’t the most important thing to grace the earth. You want to help children? You so concerned about children? Go feed the 10k who die every night of starvation if they’re so goddamn important to you.
There are really only two basic political viewpoints. The first, which I will call “Liberty” and is most closely aligned (never perfect) with our political right, takes the viewpoint that all people should enjoy equal rights, open access to markets as both buyer and seller for voluntary exchanges of goods and services for mutual benefit, that government must be kept small to keep it from being the largest threat to our rights, and that government’s purpose is to keep the peace and protect our rights equally.
Everything else, no matter what guise it goes under and what rationalizations it employs, is simply flavors, varieties, and degrees of totalitarianism - the political left.
I agree. This has been bothering me about libertarian arguments regarding "conservative censorship" in schools for a while.
"Tropic of Cancer", "Blood Meridian", and "120 Days of Sodom" are almost universally considered books of literary or historical merit.
Yet almost no one would argue for their inclusion in K-12 curricula or their presence in K-12 libraries.
So...it's universally agreed that SOME boundaries should exist in primary education. The argument is over where those boundaries are.
Failing an objective standard to determine this, it should be left up to parents.
“Failing an objective standard to determine this, it should be left up to parents.”
In a free society, yes. Democrats are totalitarians at heart, and want everything controlled by massive government, and so find that notion appalling and “an existential threat.”
+1 Blood Meridian. But certainly not suitable for younger readers. And many on the left would be happy to see it banned. This does not imply that there on none on the right. That said, the 'don't say gay' argument has been the typical jackassery, as seen w/ most of the left-leaning arguments, race, gender, et cetera. These topics are better left to parents and families, not dim (I offer the mean intelligence for early education providers, and it is low) social 'justice' activists in a classroom. The interesting thing is, culturally, when not shitting on parents, when trying to support team blue for elections, the teachers' unions pay lip service to the importance of the family.
Amen. I mean, what the actual f*ck is wrong with Reason?
Their cretinous * laughably transparent "pox on both houses" attitude -- which really crossed the line during the run-up to the Pres. election in 2020 -- was why I stopped reading this piece of sh*t rag two years ago. (Only stumbled on this article via RealClearPolitics.)
Wahajit Ali nails the "tony" take perfectly:
Contrasting those who are trying to combat cancel culture with those combatting "the rise of fascism" as if every tactic the modern left uses wouldn't make a fascist dictator blush.
Or of course better put: the iron law of woke projection
Words are dangerous.
What are words for, when no one listens anymore?
I should just dye my hair blue.
The New York Times Admits That 'America Has a Free Speech Problem'
No they don't. They just want to be the arbiters of who gets censored for what.
NYT is noticing a shift in the wind.
Until they come out and admit their own culpability, the NYT can fuck right off.
^THIS^
Like.
They plan to do that when bohem makes an apology for stumping for biden
Yup.
The N.Y. Times is the worst lot of grifters, liars and frauds ever assembled in one calamity of the written word.
It's a good idea to keep in mind anything and everything printed in that waste of paper and ink is either false or highly ginned up for maximum effect. Hubris, outright lies, smears and gossip are for the sleazy half page trash at the point of purchase racks at the check out counter , not in a newspaper. Unfortunately the Times like WaPo and so many others aren't worth the paper they're printed on. They've become no more relevant than Briton's Daily Mail.
I fully embrace individual boycotts and shunning, as a true implementation of freedom of association, while fully despising government censorship. Where the Times goes wrong is equating the two. Everyone expects government politicians and bureaucrats to be censorious asshats; it is why they go into government in the first place. When individuals discard their individual initiative and boycott and shun because their tribal leaders demand it, they have shown their true unthinking nature and lack of curiosity. When they go beyond boycotts and shunning into shouting down and canceling, they have shown their desire to invoke government censorship, and they are scum.
That's a lousy description. What I mean is, when these clowns shout down speakers, they have moved from individual agency into showing what they wish government would do for them. It is telling that all the shouting down occurs among statists, ie lefties, ie the ones who desire government to control everybody else.
for all their braying about cancel culture, have embraced an even more extreme version of censoriousness as a bulwark against a rapidly changing society, with laws that would ban books, stifle teachers and discourage open discussion in classrooms."
What books have been banned by the right? Or by 'banned' do we mean no longer on the recommended list for young children? Sorry, the left does that too.
"Stifle teachers". k-12 teachers do NOT have academic freedom in the classroom, they are taxpayer funded state employees and are beholden to the district, ie the parents.
And "discourage open discussion"... discussion about what, exactly?
nd "discourage open discussion"... discussion about what, exactly?
This last one is important. If a teacher was using "mein kampf" as an educational guide, would we "tolerate" that as "open discussion" in a k-12 classroom? Would it be tolerated at a university?
Again, and again and again we come to this point of contention. We seem to be able to easily identify when the right goes too far, but there seems to be no metric, no bright line, no border, nothing on the horizon to guide us as to when the left goes too far.
That is correct. I have heard that term concerning the right and left as going to far but as you and others have stated there appears to be no line of contention for the left when they go too far.
Not even when they were busily murdering those who opposed them.
The left has bamboozled many people into believing they're for the the common person, the little guy, for justice for all but in reality they're all about power and control.
If you want some good examples of how far the left will go just remember how many graves there are in the world attributed to leftist ideas, ie: socialism.
With one key difference. The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, for example, was *literally* banned in schools. As in, "you can't use this book in classroom discussion, or for classroom assignments, and it will not be available in the school library". Even comparing that to saying "you can't use this book that has cartoon illustrations of underage children giving blowjobs to adults for classroom assignments, even though it will still be available in the school library and still appear on the recommended reading list" is a false equivalency that would be pathetic in a middle school debate, let alone adults creating national education policy.
I remember when Mark Twain High School banned Huckleberry Finn, sometime in the early 80s. I saw some pinhead school administrator trying to justify it to a local news reporter, and she sounded just as stupid as every lefturd with TDS does today.
-jcr
One of the greatest anti-racist statements of its day. A story about a kid who genuinely thinks he's going to hell for helping a runaway slave, but in the end decides that it's worth it to save his friend.
Not even subtle about it, either. All the bad guys call him Nigger Jim, all the good guys just call him Jim.
Whether or not you think people should read this book (assuming your objection is to the letters nigger printed on the pages) is a major litmus test for me. If you think no, because that's racist, I'm pretty sure you don't get the point and aren't worth talking to.
That's the problem with racialists and any of their talking points these days. It's all irrational. It isn't actually about history, or improving race relations, or "frank and difficult conversations" or anything like that. For many it seems to be parroting the talking points of others in their echo chamber. You can't have a rational debate in that case. And you especially can't have the debate about the difference between a word in one context or another. It's like trying to point something out to your cat, the cat doesn't look where you're pointing, it looks at your finger.
Clemens/Twain was a fantastic writer. And as far as I can tell a classic liberal or libertarian.
Clemens was America's greatest humorist, hence the Mark Twain Award for humor.
Recipients include George Carlin and Dave Chapelle.
Yeah, the idea that the safe space/zero debate crowd wants "frank and difficult conversations" is ridiculous. "Frank" here means "controlled and one sided" and "difficult" means only for the target.
It will be a great day to see the public schools in such bad decay they have to all be closed.
Of course, both sides.
The side trying to ban dissenting viewpoints from the public square, and the side trying to protect their children from overzealous government employees pushing an agenda the citizens who pay their salaries don't necessarily agree with.
"...there's nothing particularly odd about The New York Times taking the ideological position that free speech is of vital importance to American society and democracy..."
Is this the first time Sullum has ever read the New York Times?
In theory, there should not be anything odd with the NYT supporting free speech. In practice, the NYT recently has not endorsed free speech or press as a universal principle. Particularly where they have stood on limiting it to the prestige media staff.
It is nice to see, but one wonders where this came from all of a sudden.
Can't speak to Sullum since it's a Soave article.
Ah the delicious irony of having an anti-Cancel Culture editorial lead to mass Canceling by lefties of their NYT subscriptions.
The tweets included in the article are from left-leaning people. I suspect exactly 100% of them are for clamping down on 'misinformation' and would vote for a candidate who supported the same.
"The rise of Fascism" For fuck's sake. So we're supposed to believe that the anti-fascists are the ones that want to control the economy and censor dissenting views and tell everyone their proper place in society based on race and identity?
I'm not a fan of calling anyone other than the actual people who called themselves "Fascist" fascists. But if we had to assign that label to one side of American politics, I don't think I'd have a hard time figuring it out.
Dont forget their little black (brown) shirts, the violent mob of "definitely not fascists" that scream "RAISE YOUR FIST!!!" at people until they give in, surround and intimidate people to repeat their propaganda, and burn down businesses. Also attack and destroy the property of anyone trying to film them vandalizing, assaulting, etc.
Yup, those people are totes the ones I trust to fight the "rise of fascism".
Woke. Projection.
Is it the ones who tried to install a dictator and whose every political opinion is about what sorts of people they want to expel from the country? The ones currently burning books?
Or is it someone else?
We already installed the dictator Biden.
You're aware Biden is more of a dictator and far more of a Putin stooge than Trump ever was.
At least he's not an embarrassing moron.
If you are not embarrassed by Biden, that is more of a condemnation of you than anything I can think of.
I'm pleasantly surprised, in fact. All he had to be was better than Trump (so any potted plant would do). Turns out he's also adequately competent!
Out of control inflation, broken borders, international conflicts threatening a nuclear war, broken energy prices breaking middle class and lower class budgets, COVID still a thing (more deaths on his watch than Trump's), Afghanistan withdrawal fiasco. What exactly has Biden done right in your asinine partisan opinion?
Yeah but you're just cherry picking.
When we look back long from now people will remember the Trump years as a time the economy was booming, inflation was under control, and we had a bombastic president who talked out of his ass that caused the final fusion of mainstream press and basically most journalism with the DNC.
Biden, just starting out, is already being called Carter or Hoover 2.0, is historically unpopular (worse than fucking Trump!) despite a fawning press, and is presiding over a poor stagnant economy, record breaking inflation, and he hasnt even done measurably better on COVID. Trump barely took it seriously (I mean other than greenlighting the project to get a vaccine in record breaking time...that Biden and Harris initially poopooed - until they got in power) and Biden is still doing worse.
And this is just halfway in. He is barely treading water, and we are just in the beginning phases of his severely advancing dementia.
Sorry you picked a shitty horse, but it wont be long before the glue factory is calling.
Trump will be remembered as a traitor and a buffoon for all time.
Remember who writes the textbooks. It isn't fucking half-literate QAnon trash.
and yet Carter is still remembered as one of the worst presidents in recent history (which is a massive feat given Bush the lesser) who's name is synonymous with a stagnant economy with 10-20% interest rates and massive inflation
though im sure once you get your re-education centers fully up and running that will change.
This post proves you're a troll. To be this generous to Biden is beyond rational. Either paid or trolling. No other choice, except maybe massively stupid. But I don't think you're massively stupid.
You don't know why you hate him. You just know that your memes have instructed you to.
God forbid we look at the world objectively, discern what the president has control over and what he doesn't, and make a rational assessment.
No, we have Tucker Carlson's shrieking and retarded memes.
I'm not saying that Trump wasn't an embarrassing president (if you worry about that sort of thing), or didn't have a lot of dumb things to say. But Biden is at least as much of an embarrassing moron as Trump.
I haven't seen anything that convinces me that Trump wanted to be a dictator (any more than any other recent president, anyway).
Given that antifa are the "anti-fascists" yes that is exactly what they stand for. Now if you mean people opposed to fascism and authoritarianism in then you have a point.
I can't help but see the similarities of people here advocating censorship and screaming "Fascist!" with other people on the complete other side of the world who are doing the exact same thing (and more - since they hold absolute power).
Isn't it funny how nobody in the mainstream cared a whit about cancel culture *until* "right wing legislation" to destroy their legally-consecrated monopoly on weaponized censorship and lying started circulating? You'd almost think they were completely disingenuous pieces of shit or something.
Hot Take: Twitter isn't real.
Like, obviously it exists, but nothing that happens there matters. It doesn't matter at all. Why does anyone care that a bunch of people insulted so and so on Twitter? Some people spawn camped me in a video game yesterday. Why isn't anyone writing an article about that? You see what I mean? Twitter is the designated "stupid off hand remarks" website. It is literally designed to reject attempts at lengthy discussion.
^
I agree with you, but many people with actual power and influence are on Twitter, and they are presumably sharing their real opinions. On top of that, I'm not sure they always understand that Twitter isn't real. As in, I don't know if they always realize that the people they interact with there are not at all representative of society at large.
I get what you're saying, that Twitter matters because people are crazy and assign importance to things that don't deserve it and since you share a world with them you have to deal with the fallout of their crazy, but you have it wrong. Twitter doesn't matter any more than the speed of ceiling fans matters in South Korea. Just because there's a mass delusion among society that X matters doesn't make it so. It's the crazy mass delusion that matters, not the trigger. Obsession with Twitter matters, Twitter does not. Instead of being outraged that someone said a stupid thing on Twitter, people should be outraged that anyone plumbs Twitter for meaning deeper than photographs of tacky bumperstickers and short videos of pets behaving badly and maybe with enough social pressure some marginal cases can be convinced that it really doesn't matter what a given congress critter thinks about a law in X number of characters, because the only place for serious policy discussion is in speeches, articles, debates, and other areas of serious intellectual discourse.
When 8 people tweeting about how some Rando is a racist gets said Rando fired for no reason, then yes Twitter very much exists. Now that's not to say it shouldn't have the power it does, but people's lives are ruined every day because of it and the sub humans that use it
The 8 people shitposting on twitter didn't get anyone fired. That person's boss did the firing. This is the crux of my point here: You shouldn't be mad at the 8 witless goons on Twitter. You should be mad at the boss. Twitter didn't force the boss to fire anyone. That poor choice was entirely their own and they should be held accountable for it.
Don't believe me? Let's take it apart: If Company XYZ's managers aren't responsible for firing John Doe over Twitter accusations, if the Twitter mob really did force them to do it, how is John Doe not ultimately responsible for forcing the Twitter mob to get angry about him by being so awful? When you accept that people have no agency and that something or someone else must be the cause of their actions, you'll never escape from the endless blame game until you get to someone who has no power and can't defend themselves. The illusion that Twitter matters isn't just something we need to disabuse ourselves of, but a mania that others need to be disabused of as well, but that doesn't start by accepting at face value the insane assertion that Twitter matters. It starts by saying "Twitter doesn't matter" to yourself, to others, to your employees, and to your boss.
Social media is the epitomé of cunty high school girl cliques. Bitchy little minds saying mean shit for which they take zero responsibility. It may exist, but it serves no real purpose except to show what a lot of fucking idiots we have become.
Anyone ever wonder how much of the cancel culture would just go away if we all just started to quit using Facebook and Twitter?
Things like the students shouting down speakers have existed for decades; ask anyone who was in collage during the Vietnam War about that kind of thing. The problem with those kinds of protests is that it is often somewhat difficult to find a bunch of other people to hang around for hours and act like total jackasses. Letter writing campaigns were also common, but it often took years to build up the following required and they were limited by the number of times they could be called upon. These things limited the overall effectiveness and number or causes, as only a few issues and events can really scale up at a time.
Social media has added a new form of protest, where spewing a particular brand of mock outrage is a easy as a few clicks. Armies can be formed quickly and easily, seemingly without effort, as long as it doesn't really take any effort on the part of the induvial being recruited to act.
Seems the simple solution for most people would be to simply not use FB or Twitter: *poof* woke-be-gone.
I gave up on both years ago, but somehow woke assholes still annoy me.
Pandora's Box has already been opened. If Facebook and Twitter went the way of MySpace, others would move in to fill the gap and the stupidity would continue.
Hell, just look at TikTok, which is even more cancerous than Twitter could have dreamed.
Anyway, the short answer is that Twitter's influence is outsized because *every single mainstream press asshole* lives on the fucking thing. It's basically the Fourth News Network now.
“America has a free speech problem”
Yeah, the times thinks there’s entirely too much free speech.
For others that is. They are occasionally limited by things like the law and they're working on removing that.
So do most colleges and universities.
It continues to be a liberal ideal.
The problem is that there are no liberals in the Democratic party, only progressives and neo-Marxists, people who are totalitarian to the core.
"And to protect us from the totalitarian leftists, we must install Donald Trump as dictator for life."
I like it when you project.
It’s the only time you are truly honest.
Nobody but you says that.
I suspect Tony jerks off to a persecution fantasy. In his mind, something like the brave French resistance lad getting "interrogated" by jack-booted Nazi SS.
I guarantee you that he has fantasies of being the next Matthew Shepherd, if only for the internet updoots he'd get.
I never liked Trump; I voted against him twice. You can oppose Trump and still feel that there are many legitimate criticisms of the Democratic party.
For me it was a lesser of two bad options.
Its just you could easily forecast the really bad outcome but just looking at how Democrats behave, run the places they rule over - and see that no matter how much people whine about Trump and the GOP, the other side is just way worse.
Wish other candidates had a chance but short of revolution of some sort, the two Parties are just to ingrained into the structure of government and society.
Most people I meet on the Democratic Party side are morons. They say stupid things. Live in an entirely separate reality from this one. And as things actively worse around for them, people around them, due to the policies advocate (from crime to cost of living) - they act like it isn't happening or its always someone else's fault.
I never liked Trump, but I voted for him twice. Because the alternatives were a) an evil bitch and then later b) a doddering old fool who has various puppeteers hands up his ass.
So you went with a doddering old evil bitch fool who openly boasted about being a puppet of the current dictator we're at war with.
Don't waste all those smarts in one place.
Never happened. But if it makes you feel better you can believe in the tooth fairy too. Stop your fucking lying, no one buys it anymore.
Seriously? You have to make up lies to support your position. Doesn't that show you at some level how bad your position is?
Yeah? When was that?
I voted for Gary, because he was a really good governor here. He didn't say more stupid things than Trump, and obviously wasn't as evil as Hillary.
What was hilarious was all of the people locally yelling at me for not voting for Hillary, even though she won our state anyway. *facepalm*
I had heard this too, that voting third party or sitting the election out was a vote for Trump, no matter what state you live in. Of course that makes absolutely no sense at all. I knew that Clinton and Biden would win my state long before their respective elections were held. I don't know who's going to be running in the next presidential election, but I can virtually guarantee that the winner will be the Democrat. I would put money on it.
It's funny, if you had an actual argument you wouldn't have to keep resorting to this tired canard. Think about that for a bit.
Apparently Ted Lieu learned the wrong lessons from from his "active duty service".
No one gives a shit Teddy. And we certainly aren't going to kiss your ass while you act like a fascist.
One of my favorite lines from anywhere. "So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!" Near Perfect.
Without the freedom of speech, slavery would still be normal globally, homosexuals would have the choice of remaining in the closest or going to prison, and women wouldn't be voting. Free speech is infinitely more important than the pwecious widdow feewings of the lefturds who pretend to be traumatized by anything they don't want to hear.
-jcr
What a clown fire of an editorial.
Speech has never been more free. A starving child in the middle of Antarctica can post their every brain fart to the entire world. Speech is so free it's post-scarcity.
It's hardly a surprise that rich white males get their tutus in a bunch whenever other types of people exercise their free speech to dare question their omnipotent wisdom. It's no accident that 90% of the curdled assholes whining about censorship are straight white dudes. Humans don't see power in absolute values but relative ones. Losing even a little cultural power can feel like being genocided, especially if you're prone to stupidity and histrionics.
You have a right not to be criticized? Putin couldn't agree more!
But just don’t tell gay jokes, amirite?
Who has gone to prison for telling an offensive joke? Name one person.
Nobody? Then shut the fuck up.
Several people in Europe and Canada, for starts. See a Finnish Lutheran Bishop is facing jail time for quoting the Bible?
How many children live in Antarctica?
Goddamn you are dumb.
There are starving children in Antarctica? That's the story the media should really be focusing on.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/doctors-license-suspended-after-treating-covid-with-ivermectin/ar-AASSexy
"A medical board in Maine has suspended the license of an MIT-educated doctor and ordered a psychiatric evaluation after she was accused of treating some of her patients with Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine and spreading misinformation about COVID-19.
Maine’s Board of Licensure in Medicine voted last week to conduct a deeper investigation into Dr Meryl Nass, from Ellsworth. The board also voted to suspend her license for 30 days and have her undergo a psychiatric evaluation."
You know the difference between speech and injecting people with chemicals?
Doctors prescribe off label drugs all the time idiot, without having their medical licenses suspended. Fuck you're an imbecile.
She also claimed that the covid vaccine has reproductive side effects, and prescribed a patient ivermectin over the phone. She's also a more general anti-vaxxer - MMR, HPV, etc.
The precipitating event might have been covid related, but there is a lot of malpractice going on in that doctor's office.
"prescribed a patient ivermectin over the phone"
This isnt the gotcha that its made out to be. People are acting like this is giving a child heroine. Which ironically, I can actually do over the phone. Im not prescribing people ivermectin personally as I leave those decisions up to their PCP, but its not some death drug. I can prescribe potent antibiotics with more significant side effect profiles than ivermectin and no one would blink. I can prescribe a massive bottle of opioids that a person could OD on easily.
Ivermectin isnt completely without side effects of course, but its not some death pill. Its pregnancy category C in terms of risk. Like zofran, the nausea medication we give to EVERY PREGNANT PATIENT THAT HAS SURGERY. Let that sink in. Its considered on par with a medication that nearly all pregnant women receive when they have a surgery in terms of risk.
The root of the problem here of course is that instead of using actual science or any kind of non-hysterical thought, we decided to settle this using corrupt politicians who have significant investments in big pharma companies, and the big pharma companies who have of course profit incentive, and twitter.
Thats how we decided that the vaccines that have side effects themselves (and coincidentally make big pharma and the politicians invested in them rich) are to be taken almost without thought, but a drug that has been administered to millions over many years, that has received a nobel prize, that I could legit prescribe to a pregnant person, has been demonized as a death pill because the only answer was allowed to be the vaccine. Instead of pushing for legit RCT's (which fortunately Japan and others have done more of) they pushed the narrative that if you want to keep granny alive you better get the vaccine, but if you take Ivermectin you are a fucking hick taking horse dewormer. That's the level of analysis our politicians and the left wing encouraged.
There is not much wrong with Ivermectin other than it is politically nuclear. It has in-vitro antiviral activity, and its relatively a very safe drug. It may or may not be effective against COVID. But its not a horse dewormer death pill (well, its an everything dewormer techincally). It just happens to cost almost nothing while new vaccines make politicians and big pharma lots of money. Thats the truth of the matter.
^^^ Truth^^^
Any time the Washington Post writes an article or editorial even slightly critical of Democrats, the commentariat lambastes them for being Right Wing. Liberals continue to eat their own.
Observed with great glee.
they cannot and will not tolerate any dissent from the approved narrative. It has to be stomped out quickly by the mob.
And by the mob, I mean the people who totes are going to save us from "the rise of Fascism". L O fucking L
You know who else had a free speech problem?
K-K-K-K-Ken from A Fish Called Wanda?
No mention of Citizens United? We’re just a court-packing election away from democrats using political censorship during elections. That would be the death of democracy.
"“It’s a 500-page book, and at the end it says, so vote for X. The government could ban that?” Roberts asked.
Yes, Stewart said again. The Constitution would allow a law that forbids the use of corporate funds to pay for such a book, he said."
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2009-mar-25-na-supreme-court-hillary25-story.html
Democrats want to ban books with political messages during elections.
Government has always had a say in how people are allowed to spend their money.
Not when the money is used for speech.
Which has no relevancy on book banning whatsoever.
"Clinton pledges constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United ruling
Hillary Clinton committed Saturday to introducing a constitutional amendment to overturn the Citizens United decision within her first 30 days in office, if she’s elected president."
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/hillary-clinton-citizens-united-225658
We were just one electoral college away from political censorship in this country. Never forget. You can't trust these people to control information during an election. See: Hunter's laptop.
How on god's green earth does Hunter Biden's laptop affect the rights or well-being of any human on earth?
You are mad you didn't get a cheap political stunt to work in your favor. You actually believe the great injustice in your life is not being able to ratfuck an election in your favor.
I've sat here and watched your brain turn to mush. Stop it with the FOX News.
So knowing our president uses his power to enrich him and his son and broadcasting that is a cheap political stunt in your opinion, or only if that person is a Democrat? We all know it's the latter in your case.
If it was Don Jr and Trump he would be calling for a third retroactive impeachment trial. But its a democrat so nothing to see here.
Just like we had to have Kavanaugh colonoscopized for potentially having *gasp* beers ever in his life or because he horsed around and played tickle fest (maybe) with a girl 3 decades ago. And we had to hear out and believe his obviously other fake accuser with scumbag lawyer (should have been the tell) Avenati because he had the wrong political opinion. But a lady said Biden sniffed her hair, harassed her, kissed her and finger banged her against her wishes (actually more recent than 30 years ago) and that has to be memory holed because believe all women quickly became STFU he's a democrat.
As Tony mentioned the other day fascism knows no specific ideology but power. No principles, other than can I get more power for my side. He wasn't incorrect, he just cant see that the benevolent leaders he happily licks the boot of are clearly the ones partaking.
Can you imagine Tony's hysteria if that had been a Don Trump Jr. laptop?
Don Jr. bragged about how the Trump business is kept afloat with Russian oligarch money.
Their charity had to shut down due to corruption (that's theft). Same with their university.
Investigations are ongoing.
“Investigations” have been “ongoing” for five years and we know they’re all bullshit now. Try to keep up.
Sorry, but I’m a free speech extremist, and I have no time for your bullshit raving about Fox News and Trump.
Hunter Biden’s laptop shows us that the democrat party, government agents, and large, influential portions of the media including state-run NPR will lie and deceive the American people in the run up to an election.
That kind of misinformation and disinformation is killing democracy in this country, and we can’t afford to let the government start violating freedom of the press, press being a technology, not a job.
You mean the censorship of the Post didn't happen?
Erm,
hunter biden's laptop, NY Post story. No court-packing, but the shitweasels have been using the media and social media to suppress stories about their preferred candidates for some time. There is a reason team i'mwithher rated media on their ability to shape narratives if they granted to media agency interviews.
"Cancel culture" is just capitalism in action. Someone prominent says something that irritates large numbers of potential or actual consumers, so their employer terminates them to regain said consumers goodwill, and hopefully money.
And I get the feeling the market is due for a correction.
Every time a "free speech warrior" tries to go against prevailing cultural norms, you know, because they're so brave and love freedom, it just turns into an awkward spectacle.
Being an obnoxious cunt is not a political worldview.
Is that the way you felt when your side tried banning prayer in school? Remove Under God from the pledge etc? Because those were also against the prevailing culture. Just admit you are to stupid to realize that you have no principles beyond Democrats good, everyone else evil.
I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Are you saying you’re really down with cultural conformity and react very negatively to violation of those norms in a very reactionary and conservative way?
Tony vomits out idiotic word salad at various intervals that follows certain broad themes (chiefly that anything he doesn't like emanates from Trump cultists and Fox News) but otherwise has no logic, consistency, or internal coherence. I doubt he pays the slightest attention to the rot he types.
"Being an obnoxious cunt is not a political worldview." Talk about being self-referential.
No, cancel culture is when a small, loud group bullies and threatens a person/company until they get their way despite the wishes of the majority.
I've heard this said and it's due to a fundamental misunderstanding of what cancel culture is and how it works.
Typically, the cancel mob is small in number. It's not representative of consumers of the product, as well; it's the people who don't have jobs and have all day to spend online or on twitter to complain. They don't represent the customer base, but what they are is a mob with torches threatening to burn down the building. The owner/operator submits to the demands of the mob of people who never purchased their product before and they will likely continue to not buy the product, in exchange for them unpersoning the troublesome people.
What's even more insidious about cancel culture is that it doesn't care about truth or honesty. The Ur example of cancel culture was Justine Sacco. She made an off-color joke about white privilege. It wasn't particularly offensive, it affected zero people, it had literally nothing to do with her day to day operations. People pretended that this meant she was secretly a horrible racist and her company fired her. She never expected anyone to see the joke because she had like 40 followers, mostly just her friends. None of the claims people made about her were true, nobody who was calling for her cancellation had any business connection to her employer, but she got fired anyway.
That's like claiming that protection rackets are capitalism in action. Some business owner chooses not to pay the sketchy Italian guys, then two weeks later his business burns down, and other businesses start upping their payments to the sketchy Italians. That's not actually the free market, that's an intentional manipulation of the market. What makes these businesses surrender to the mob is often the fear that people will spread lies to their investors and hurt their short-term capital, even if it has no effect on consumers in the long-term.
I could go on a bit further with the problems here, like the decision to deplatform truckers from any banking or credit institutions because they were protesting a law they didn't like. Because cancel culture isn't just about holding people accountable, it's about punishing people forever so they can never again earn a living.
Because cancel culture isn't just about holding people accountable, it's about punishing people forever so they can never again earn a living.
^
And it's based in a very Calvinist notion that there is exactly one set of proper beliefs and behaviors and if you deviate in any way you reveal that you are Reprobate and irredeemable.
It's one of the things that happens when societies invent Twitter.
The only real question is what do you people want government to do about cancel culture?
Nuke leftists.
It's called straying outside the 3X5 index card of allowable opinion.
Consider what's happening to anyone who dares consider Russia's reason for their actions.......their side of the story and see what happens to that person. Canceled.
You then get called a Russian bot, a Russian stooge, Putin's propagandist every slur and smear they can think of.
The warning is this: don't you dare say anything other than that which is the accepted narrative..
Or else.
ken and mickey aren't going to like that comment.
A "terrific" editorial? Please. This is the same publication - the same op-ed board - that cowed to its own woke staffers and fired an editor over publishing Tom Cotton. It'd be really great if the Times enforced its own apparent principles on its own goddamn staff.
I mostly agree with the editorial, but the Times has contributed to the state of affairs that they are criticizing.
Nice handle.
And of course the Times' critics, the ones in the screenshots, go on to prove the editors' point.
Your censorship of my free speech is not at all analogous to my rightful stifling of your hateful words.
Fuck Adam Davidson, Ted Lieu, Wajahat Ali, Kevin M. Kruse, Jeff Jarvis, and the New York Times.
Holodomor, Largest lynching in American history, Iraq war lies...oh I could go on and on. The NYT has had issues with real Americans for a hundred years.
"The editorial includes a predictable (and mostly well-deserved) condemnation of conservative attempts to legislate away uncomfortable discussions about sex and race in schools."
How about our worthless schools attempt to teach our children the basics of reading, writing and arithmetic before they take on the self-imposed task of telling children what to think about race and homosexuality?
Needless to say, this phony 'libertarian' web site is completely on board with the state indoctrinating young children on cultural issues even while it fails to provide them with even a rudimentary real education.
This is pretty rich coming from one of the major sources of cancel culture.
Remember when their own snowflake employees demanded an editor be fired to printing an op-ed from a sitting US senator?
Yeah, NYT, you aint fooling anybody.
I do have to say the proggie twitterati responses are gold.
Ms. Leonard said. "Liberal as I am — a little to the left of Lenin
My god. These people still exist.
The NY Times may have realized that the rise of a dichotomous society characterized by Tribalism and opposing Identitarianism overlays closely with the leadership of the two established political parties.
If nothing else, it proves that confusing Twitter etc. with 'What "People" Are Thinking' has produced bad results for both journalism and politics.
Refusing to consider an argument is bigotry.
This shouldn’t be a revelation.
There are some major differences between the ‘censorship’ of the left and the right. The left is trying to stop adults from sharing unpopular (to the left) opinions with other adults. The right is trying to stop adults from sharing unpopular (to the right’) opinions with their children. Big difference.
Random, unapproved by family, opinions shared with children. With no oversight. At an age that is very likely too young for the topic material.
"Many on the right, for all their braying about cancel culture, have embraced an even more extreme version of censoriousness as a bulwark against a rapidly changing society, with laws that would ban books, stifle teachers and discourage open discussion in classrooms."
School participation is mandatory. THAT is the problem. Forcing anyone to pay for and put their children into a school is the root of the problem.
If schools are voluntary and people are allowed to create their own associations and curriculum, the talking points of BOTH Democrat statists and Republican collectivists end.
Ultimately, both parties believe that you do not own yourself and that you are responsible for your children but have no authority over them since the state has a monopoly on authority.
So you think parents should be able to choose whether their children are literate?
Contrary to popular belief, children are not the property of parents. They have some individual rights too.
Can children have sex?
Have jobs?
Drink alcohol?
Buy cigarettes?
Get tattoos?
Just askin'.
No, but if parents force their children to do any of those things, the state can come protect them from their parents. Just as I was explaining.
...but sexualizing them is just fine. Got it. Good to know.
And how much worse is it if random strangers are the ones sexualizing them? If parents did it, the state would protect the kids. But if teachers do it, then it is OK with you.
Seriously dude, you people cannot stop talking about sexualizing children. It's actually getting very uncomfortable.
In case you care, here's what normal people do: not constantly think and talk about sexualized children.
So why do you care if people say don't teach it to my kids until they are old enough? Because that is all fucking Florida said in their new law.
this is the CRT in schools bills all over again.
The right says "dont be racist to kids" and the left has a tantrum. No one said you cant teach what CRT is, you just cant teach the tenets of it as fact, specifically racial determinism which is a big one for them. Because few things are as racist (by definition) as telling a kid their station and path in life is set due to an immutable race related characteristic.
The law says you cant be racist to kids and the democrats lose their shit. But they def werent trying to be racist to kids and CRT isnt real or in schools. But not being able to be racist to kids or teach CRT is a travesty to them...hmm
But they werent teaching CRT or being racist, they say.
Now a common sense law says you cant talk about sex with kids that are in fucking early elementary school (5-9 year olds) and the left has a tantrum. But they def dont want to be able to sexualize and groom kids, no way. They just absolutely have to have the ability to talk to 5-9 year olds about sex and their post modern "everything is a construct" gender shit that mostly normalizes DSM diagnoses.
But they werent trying to sexualize and indoctrinate kids. No way. But it is vitally important that their activist teachers get to talk to very young impressionable kids about sex and gender bending.
Man the new left has adopted so much of the bad stuff the old right wing did its crazy. If you told me 20 years ago about a party that was full of war mongers, open racists, and child molesters in positions of authority ...no wait, that still sounds like the neoliberals. Nevermind I thought I was on to something.
All of a sudden this was a problem? Or just maybe it's a concocted moral panic by the Republican media machine, exactly the same thing they do every fucking two years.
Remember 2004? My right to marry was suddenly of great existential import. Once Bush was re-elected, suddenly it was less of a big deal.
Stop falling for this crap because it's going to get children killed.
You can't have it both ways, Tony. You can't stridently argue and defend teaching small kids about sexual matters and then accuse those trying to prevent it from being overly infatuated with sexualizing children.
Maybe I'm just not as stupid as you because I can see this shit from a mile away. QAnon--obsessed with child sex. The new Republican talking point is that Democrats are "grooming" children in schools (no evidence provided, of course). It's a fucking operation, it's not something real.
And given the sheer number of very powerful Republicans who got caught molesting children, including a long-serving speaker of the House, you'll forgive us for concluding that there's a fair amount of projection. That's not to mention their deep love of churches, where child rape is basically the whole point.
All those sandpaper-faced mole people who came out for Trump? You telling me they don't fuck children? They are like 50% the product of incest, by the looks of them.
Maybe you should stop stalking little boys, Tony.
Normal people are not losing their power to appoint Trumpanzee judges to rubber-stamp Lateran Treaties and force children to Credere, Obbedire, Combattere in State Hitlerjugend. Republican National Socialists are. They have to fall back strategically, sucker a few more seats out of voters, then resume dead ahead to Junior Anti-Sex League, no-knock sumptuary SWAT teams and nine Televangelists on the Supreme Court so that no murdering cop is ever again reprimanded.
I would put allowing a child to make a decision that will very likely fuck their body up and lose a function they cant yet grasp or know if they will want (ability to reproduce) in a more dangerous category than letting them smoke or get tattoos. Its all bad, but altering the bodies development trajectory and allowing a kid to essentially castrate themselves is way less reversible (and morally terrible) than the other things listed.
My kid thought he had superpowers, it was my job not to encourage this delusional behavior because it turns out buying the cape for him, the mask, and encouraging him to fly off the roof has significant consequences.
"Can children have sex?"
If we accept, as Democrats largely do, that a 10 y/o child, for example, has the capacity to consent to undergo a sex change operation and/or take puberty blockers, procedures which have long-term and irreversible effects, then I honestly cannot see any rational argument that would explain why a 14 y/o should not also have the capacity to consent to sexual intercourse with an adult.
Mental midgets like Tony cannot articulate a limiting principle to any of this stuff. People like him tell us we're paranoid, and then will tell us we're bigots 5 years from now when Democrats tell us the next "civil rights" fight is to promote alternative family arrangements like polygamy, or to normalize incest.
Instead of just gaslighting and lobbing ad hominem attacks, Tony, I implore you to actually explain to me why we as a society should continue to stigmatize a son engaging in consensual sexual intercourse with his biological mother, or why the state should be able to tell a grown woman that she cannot marry two people at the same time when all three say they love each other and express a desire to enter said marriage.
> why the state should be able to tell a grown woman that she cannot marry two people at the same time when all three say they love each other and express a desire to enter said marriage.
I mean, I don't actually have a problem with this.
Mohammed didn't take it as pretext for murder either, nor did Joseph Smith. But Smith was murdered in a Christian jail cell by a raving mob similar to the fanatics who got George Holy War Bush and his morally deformed child to involve us in murder, torture, war and dictatorships from Piedras Negras to Patagonia, all across Africa and into Afghanistan. Once Trumpanzees screeching their revealed wisdom here learn that Japanese girls make personal decisions at 12, "Nuke Tokyo" will be their next chant.
Yes they are.
Serious question. As a leftist, have you always hated parental rights, or has you desire for government raised kids grown over time?
This new desire on the left to nullify parents is just fascinating to me. First for it's bizarreness from a rational standpoint, but also it's wonderfully cliched positioning of being a needed factor for communism, but coming from a group who keeps claiming they aren't pushing for communism.
I wasn't aware that libertarianism gave parents life-and-death sovereignty over other people (their children). That wasn't brought up in any of the meetings. Perhaps you just don't know what you're talking about and are accepting the lies you see on FOX News without even a moment's hesitation?
Yes, children have some rights. I'd think that would be good to libertarians (individuals having individual rights). Parents do not own their children. Children are entitled to health, safety, and education even if their parents are neglectful crackheads. That's how it works, and I think that's good, but you are welcome to explain why not.
Good luck reconciling a worldview in which children are 100% at the mercy of their parents, no matter how neglectful and crack-addicted, yet are later morally condemned for not being able to move up in the capitalist hierarchy.
Disappointing. Title of the article is a classic bait-and-switch. The only thing I took away from this NYT column was just how wide the gap is between the two halves of America.
The criticisms of the right that the author asserts are "well-deserved" are nothing more run-of-the-mill progressive gaslighting. Preventing a 1st grade teacher from telling my 6 y/o son that he could be a boy one day, a girl the next, and a two-spirit the day after is not banning "uncomfortable [but necessary] discussions about sex".
A teacher's job is to educate my kid in reading, math, and science, not to indoctrinate him into fringe sexual ideologies, the logical extreme of which encourages people to undergo serious and largely irreversible chemical and surgical interventions, the consequences of which children are never mature enough to appreciate. The insinuation that it is a bad thing to "stifle" teachers in this regard or prevent "open discussions" on this topic in a classroom of impressionable toddlers presupposes that there is any societal, educational, or moral value to such instruction, which I and the vast majority of other Americans wholly reject.
Why can't you see a Republican-fabricated moral panic when you see it?
They do this every two years. Give them points for mixing it up, but this is actually the same thing as satanism in daycare was in the 90s.
You should be asking yourself which pocket they're picking while they have you distracted by this crap. Just let individual humans live the lives they want to live. As libertarians, you're supposed to be on point on that.
"Why can't you see a Republican-fabricated moral panic when you see it?"
For a self-described libertarian, I find it funny that you took the first page out of the progressive handbook of argumentation. You cannot directly address any arguments I made, so you just gaslight me instead. I could point you to literally dozens of pieces of direct evidence proving that the phenomenon I am describing is taking place in grade schools all over the country.
I've seen this song and dance before though, and I know how it plays out. As soon as provide you with direct evidence supporting my claim, you'll ignore it and fall back on your libertarian argument. Instead of wasting my time, I'll just respond to your assertion about libertarianism.
Not a single point I made is incompatible with libertarianism. It is mainstream Democrats, not me, that will not "live and let live." I never argued that someone like Caitlyn Jenner should be thrown in prison, nor that a grown man shouldn't be allowed to hack off his penis if he chose to do so, nor that any trans-person should be treated less favorably under the law than any other person, etc. Transgender activists, on the other hand, believe that if a person holds views on gender consistent with natural law, most major organized world religions, and the belief shared by nearly every person in the history of western civilization until about 15 minutes ago, that that person is a bigot and that their beliefs must be eradicated. There has already been a case in Canada in which a father was found guilty of criminal child abuse for "misgendering" his 14 y/o son. Sweden has moved towards the idea of genderless preschools in which teachers are instructed to actively discourage boys, for instance, from taking interest in things traditionally associated with masculinity, and instead force them to do things like "massaging each other's feet" and "play in a kitchen."
99.9% of people never experience any kind of gender dysphoria. Of the small portion of children that do, around 80% of them grow out of it. Moreover, transgenderism has been linked to disproportionately high rates of suicide, and those rates are the same before and after "gender-affirming" medical procedures. There is absolutely no rational explanation for why my child would be better off this way, nor how encouraging more people to identify as trans quantifiably benefits society at large. Transgender activism is social engineering designed to fix a non-existent problem, and anyone who believes that a majority of the population must disavow their beliefs and defer to the government in raising their own kids is not a libertarian.
"Transgender activism is social engineering designed to fix a non-existent problem"
I would argue the problem they are trying to fix is the same problem Mao had. The need for more radicalized young people who will eventually hold the struggle sessions for anyone clinging to the "old ways". Making kids feel different, confused, and driving a wedge between them and their parents is step one in the process.
If transgender people are so rare, then why is it a national crisis every day on FOX News?
Again, they are not trying to present you with a political argument, they are trying to activate the disgust reaction in your amygdala.
I understand that for each advance in visibility of a previously invisible minority, half the population will be below average in their ability to adapt their worldview. That's fine. You'll get there. You always do. The only thing that matters is preventing you from electing actual fascists on the promise that they'll protect you from--what was it? The 0.1% of children who are trans? With their armies, no doubt.
Here again is another debate between a eugenic mystical conservative and a Fabian socialist on who can cross-dress as the more passable libertarian-impersonator. Tony at least gets debating points for terseness and for realizing that Christian National Socialists are hemorrhaging votes thanks to fanatical girl-bullying and the thugs they send to shoot kids and dogs in the name of asset-forfeiture prohibitionism. The sooner we revert to the original LP platform, the sooner infiltrators will stop boring us with their badinage.
Wasn't it Janet Reno and Martha Coakley who are leading the charge in the satanic panic?
Last I checked, they had Ds after their names.
“Why can't you see a Republican-fabricated moral panic when you see it?”
Says the guy who keeps screaming “I’m being genocided!”
Readers note the bait-and-switch: "the two halves" (christian fascism and pagan communism) are pulled out of the hat as Mainstream 'Murricanism (ignore the libertarians). In point of fact both are outlier fossil remnants of pietistic fascist Comstockism and tear-streaked communist collectivism, both of 1873 vintage. This was already old in 1969!
"Left, right, left, right, the whole damn thing puts me uptight!"--Country Joe MacDonald
Liberals waking up to the Fact the Revolution they created will eventually devour them, too
Govt school should exist to teach children to be productive members of society (math, critical thinking, reading, writing) not to discuss sexuality (other than biology of reproduction in middle/high school). WTF, why is this even being debate? The issue is you have certain communities that honestly believe their numbers would be higher if they could reach youngsters before their parents or society forces them to choose majority lifestyles. And this is false. There is no evidence there are millions of youngsters who are of one biological sex and desire to be another. They are advocating for child abuse.
Then why aren't they doing their job?
Public schools are failing at every level.
A big part in this are America's colleges and universities....nothing more than for profit diploma mills that act more like overpriced child care...and that's what they are over priced child care, littered with spoiled, over entitled upper middle class and wealthy soi bois and neo- feminist women, most of whom will never marry, have children or even live a rewarding life of any sort except to whine and bitch about every little perceived injustice to them.
Most of them are only moderately literate. Their entire world revolves around themselves and they see no further than their immediate surroundings. At least fifty percent do not belong at university. They have no real goals in life and no idea at all about what their future holds for them. They see themselves as a sort of warrior bringing some kind of social justice to the world but only by silencing anyone who dares speak outside the accepted narrative.
America's colleges, universities and even its public schools are failing. Failing to the point where young people are given high school diplomas even if they are illiterate.
Is it any wonder then why so many parents are now creating charter schools, home school networks and the renewed push for young people to consider a vocational education instead of a useless degree that ends with"studies" then handed a useless piece of paper that states the individual spent four or five years of useless study of a subject that will produce nothing of value for that individual or society.
My take is that all universities be shuttered, all professors and instructors released and start over again. End this twisted college tuition program created by Bill Clinton. College is not for everyone no matter what anyone believes. It never was and should never be. Otherwise America will continue its slide into mediocrity and decay.
Nice insights, JohnZ. As someone who spent entirely too long in higher education, it always amuses me when people try to argue that colleges and universities should be tuition free, as if one could possibly argue that the education college-aged students receive actually confers any significant benefits on society that would justify the price tag to the American public. I'm with you. We would be way better off just burning these things to the ground.
Many issues have completely fucked colleges. The massive profit incentive for the 4 year programs has been terrible for everyone. They want as many people as possible to go, because it makes them money. So high schools just teach less now, assuming the kid will get more educated in college later. And if they dont make it to college, well they probably werent going to get educated anyways right?
The assumption that everyone needs to go to college has made high school shittier, but also because everyone has to go, it almost ensures most of the degree programs are throw aways. Because everyone really isnt meant to go to college. Its for real higher learning, further study in intense fields to prepare for difficult STEM fields, things far beyond high school learning. But thats not everyone. To have something for everyone you need to basically have easy throw away degrees because there are lots of people in the middle and bottom of the bell curve, and they need something they can handle (gender studies, X-race studies, political science, "journalism", philosophy has almost completely turned its focus to bizarre post modern bullshit). This turns college basically into a big daycare center where you can go so you dont have to start actually working at something hard for another 4 years, put off adulthood a while longer.
So what is the result of that? A huge chunk of the population with significant debt, and a degree in a useless mind softening field that if anything has made them a very fragile, narrow minded person that cant adapt and handle the world. And they just wasted 4+ years doing it. So they have no earning potential (other than of course teaching others the useless tripe they learned), a maladaptive mind that cant critically think, and 10+ years worth of debt they will be paying off with their non-skill set.
The result is a body of citizens that are stupid, full of personality disorders, broke, and bitter they have wasted their potential.
Well Biden's anti-midas touch when it comes to foreign policies once again strikes:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/chinese-official-calls-sanctions-russia-increasingly-outrageous
Yesterday he spent two hours scolding Xi about supporting Russia and now the Chinese send a clear message they don't give a fuck.
Maybe Xi would change his mind if Biden asked him to reflect on how he'll be treated by history lol
I dunno, CNN put out a "All the ways China is making life hard for Russia" article so I can only assume benevolent China saw the leadership of president shits-his-pants and has followed suit. I mean why else would CNN tell me China is def the good guy.
In truth, the editorial reads like it could have been written by someone who works at Reason.
Yeah. You both pretend the right is just as guilty as the left in terms of censorship, simply because the right doesn't think schools should indoctrinating children in leftist sexual and racial ideology. They're not out try to get people fired or banning people from social media for having different political views.
Translation: tu quoque, black pot! black kettle! ad hominem, glittering generality, mystical coercive altruism goood, pagan coercive altruism baaad! Waaaah!
The critics of the editorial are right about one thing: "the right to speak their minds and voice their opinions in public without fear of being shamed or shunned" does not exist and never has existed (at least if ""right" means "legal right"). Conor Friedersdorf has suggested that it should have said, "Americans are losing hold of a civic norm with great value in a diverse, pluralistic democracy: the ability to speak their minds and voice their opinions in public without fear of being shamed or shunned." https://twitter.com/conor64/status/1504929239484620800 Even then it's questionable whether that has indeed been the norm, but the *Times*'s formulation was just plain wrong, and offered an excuse for people to ignore the rest of the editorial.
We get so many knuckle-dragging Trumpanzees in here it is a real treat to read a comment by someone conversant with the American language. The primary effect of the Second Amendment is to cause natural or artificial persons to think twice before proceeding beyond shaming/shunning to handcuffing, whipping or stoning in a public square, burning at the stake or stringing up individuals who shuck off the bonds of Inner Party social pressure. To acknowledge the fact is crimethink, not news fit to print.
"They're undermining the Constitution. "
My personal experience and observation is that they're not just undermining the Constitution, they want it eliminated in favor of their own version of whatever flavor of rights they want, which at the moment is eliminating anyone's rights that doesn't conform to their particular version of morality, without consideration of anyone else's.
And they scoff at Orwell...
The full-throated defense of free speech was once a liberal ideal.
And yet, many progressives appear to have lost faith in that principle.
At some point it will break into their consciousness that progressives aren't liberal. At that point they'll catch up to reality and stop pretending these two comments are contradictory.
I have switched to calling them progressives as while the right wing media loves to call them liberals as a slur, I feel like its too much of a compliment.
There is almost nothing "liberal" left in them. They are a religious cult with extremely strict rules. Different gods, different customs, but just another religion.
We will just have to update the "facism will come forth wrapped in the american flag holding a cross" to "wearing a Unity T-shirt wrapped in a BLM flag holding up the fist of 'solidarity' "
"legislate away uncomfortable discussions about sex and race in schools..."
lol.... As-if everyone's 5-year old needed to be indoctrinated to be a slut and racist.......
OMG! Commie-Rules for Commie-Education??????????
...... And the 'root' problem is again???????????? (Commie!)
The right and the left share an equal love for repudiating the old free speech standard of defending someone's right to speak to the death.
Now that it is considered an ethical social necessity to shut down those with whom we disagree, we see legislation that empowers strangers to use property law to coerce individuals into not exercising their fundamental liberties, and we applaud individuals who seek to punish opposing viewpoints.
The progressive breakdown of the ethical core of our constitutional system of ordered liberties is a cancer on civil society.
No the love is not equal. The Left is MUCH MUCH worse. A small back-asswards school district in Tennessee banning a comic book about the Holocaust is not equal to the Left wanting to ban all questioning of their "scientific" beliefs (i.e. banning science in the name of science) or "hate speech" codes on college campuses, etc.
The right doesn't want people fired the instant they say something that others find offensive.
Most right wing pundits defended Whoopie Goldberg (who they mostly hate) for her getting caught up in the cancel-culture nonsense.
The right isn't perfect when it comes to free speech but this is not an "everyone is just as bad" issue. The left is 1000X worse.
Robbie could shorten the opening salvo. Looters who begin a monologue with "The left..." are almost without exception intellectuals of the conservangelist persuasion. If the bleating begins with "The right seems..." you can bet the bleater is of the equally lamentable communarchist polarity of the binary-digit looter altruist coin-flip. That libertarians subscribe to neither denomination is thoughtcrime to both, hence ungraspable by either. It explains why both factions persist in stalking Reason in hopes of gulling voters.
I wonder if any single individual employing the "shame/shunning" language would therefore agree that the NFL, and the owners/mangers of all of the teams in that league are acting within their rights to be "shunning" Colin Kaepernick?
Shunning a 35-year-old ex-QB who deliberately undermined every effort by football teams to sign him after the 49ers released him, including his own Muslim thot girlfriend calling Ray Lewis a house nigger? The same 35-year-old ex-QB who's getting paid by Nike to be a meat shield for their rather nefarious manufacturing practices?
This is probably not the example leftists should be using here.
I think ultimately Colin had the same problem as Tim Tebow. They're not good enough for teams to put up with controversy. If either of them were as talented as Aaron Rodgers they could still be playing.
Robby, you've gone off the deep end!! There is no relevant equivalency between the idiots on the left and what you call out as advocates for censorship on the right. You know better too, but you still over reach for some kind of middle ground that blames both sides as guilty. No one honest would even try and compare these two!!
You're either dishonest or a total coward - either way - you're no longer worthy of my time.