Texas Classifies Medical Treatment of Trans Minors as Abuse, Threatens Parents, Orders Caregivers To Snitch
These orders aren’t about safety. They’re a complete rejection of the legitimacy of these procedures, and a denial of individual liberty.

Texas Republican Attorney General Ken Paxton has declared all medical treatment of transgender minors to be child abuse and says that his office could prosecute parents of transgender children, as well as "mandatory reporters" who fail to report medical treatment of transgender children to the state. In tandem, Republican Gov. Greg Abbott has urged state officials to begin investigating any families that may be giving their trans kids puberty-blocking drugs or hormones, or allowing them to undergo surgical treatments.
In a 13-page memo dated Feb. 18, written in response to a query from state Rep. Matt Krause (R–Fort Worth), Paxton wrote that, based on his office's analysis, any sort of medical treatment of a trans minor, be it sex-changing surgery or puberty-blocking drugs, could constitute child abuse under Texas law.
Paxton's argues that helping a child transition can cause them physical and psychological damage and that it deprives the child of the "right to procreation." Essentially, Paxton is borrowing from the argument against forced sterilization, which he references, as an argument against voluntary trans medical treatment.
However, no one believes that any child—or adult—should be exposed to these treatments against their own wishes. To the extent that minors in Texas are receiving medical treatment for trans issues, it is likely because they requested it. Meanwhile, physicians in the U.S. are largely aligned behind the idea that sex reassignment surgery should not take place until a patient is 18.
But Paxton's policy announcement is not meant to prevent surgeries that mostly are not happening. He's also going after the use of puberty-blocking drugs and hormone treatments, which do begin when transgender patients are still minors, and the effects are more easily reversed. Drug therapy is not equivalent to surgery, and it appears Paxton has lumped them together in order to confuse the issue and undermine the legitimacy of any kind of transgender health care.
Paxton's tweet about his memo gives up the game: "These procedures are monstrous and tragic." That's not a statement that means "Some parents and children may be rushing into medical treatment, some of which is hard or impossible to reverse." It is a rejection of transgender medical care entirely, as further evidenced by the memo's concession that some types of genital surgery are "medically necessary" when they correct genetic disorders or cancer.
The big threat comes at the end of the memo:
It is important to note that anyone who has "a reasonable cause to believe that a child's physical or mental health or welfare has been adversely affected by abuse or neglect by any person shall immediately make a report" as described in the Family Code. … [This] includes teachers, nurses, doctors, day-care employees, employees of a clinic or health care facility that provides reproductive services, juvenile probation officers, and juvenile detention or correctional officers. A failure to report under these circumstances is a criminal offense.
This, apparently, is not just a friendly suggestion from the state's attorney general. On Tuesday Gov. Abbott sent a memo to the commissioners of the state's Department of Family and Protective Services summarizing Paxton's memo and ordering the agency to investigate any parents found providing transgender medical care to their children. He threatens criminal penalties for anybody who fails to report it to the government.
What about the rights of patients? And of parents? Paxton's memo argues that the Texas "Legislature has not provided any avenue for parental consent, and no judicial avenue exists for the child to proceed with these procedures and treatments without parental consent."
Apparently, it's impossible to consent to your child receiving medical care without the Texas Legislature passing a new law. That's an interesting version of conservatism.
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Good. You should not use sex-change surgery or hormone blockers on minors for trans-issues.
Once they are considered legal adults, I'm fine with them doing whatever they want to themselves.
No joke. Do not know why Scotty here is so worked up that 10 year olds cannot mutilate themselves. A massively life-changing decision should not be made by minors, end of story.
And doctors who perform it should lose their licenses and face criminal prosecution.
Scott Shackford is a child abuser, and possible groomer.
You are a lying sack of s--t.
I have you beat for relative factuality.
Simmer down Shackford.
Lol, I hadn't considered that possibility. He usually posts under his own name though.
No even close, pedo.
Die.
I am no pedo. You are just a liar.
You go first, bleach the gene pool.
If you really want to advocate to Mengele the disphoric children then you ought to die, immediately. Try fentanyl.
You are the one here trying the Menglesque -- always fails -- experiment of raising a child contrary to their gender.
Heh. You really aren’t familiar with the Non-aggression Principle are you? Hint: keeping your mitts off the kinder isn’t actually “mengeleing” anybody, in fact it’s the opposite.
Applying hormones and knives to children is the essence of medically unnecessary damage to minors. Eighteen is the magic age where you can decide to start pulling-off those pesky sex-specific excrescences, and soaking up the weird hormones. Eighteen == nuts as you wanna be if you can find a
doctorbutcher quack enough to shave-off your nuts or tits.You're position, one you're apparently passionate/zealous about, is that children should be viewed as "sexual beings" (objects).
You definitely are a pedo.
No moron, and you have no excuse to tell the lie.
You are the one seeing someone as being only their sex, an denying the biology of gender.
" You definitely are a pedo. " <-- You are projecting.
LOL, the sheer narcissism and delusions of troons.
"NO YOU'RE DENYING BIOLOGICAL REALITY! IT'S WHATEVER I SAY IT IS!"
Only "beat..." ???
Be honest, if you had the power, surely you would sentence him to be stoned to death or perhaps even crucified?
After all is he not guilty of disagreeing with you or in other words....blasphemy against your beliefs?
Beat as in defeated. I have facts backing up my opinions, they have none...
...And they are the ones saying I should die because I disagree with their baseless faith.
They’re saying you should die because you advocate for permanently fucking-up children; noting that attitude seems like a fine decision-making criteria.
Did you read the article? This is about hormone treatment for minors, not surgery. And it isn't about minors making the decisions unilaterally, it is about parents deciding that hormone treatments are the best option for their kids.
Furthermore, choosing to not decide is still a choice. Allowing puberty to happen normally without hormone treatment is just as life-changing as hormone treatment. Puberty blockers are actually the least life-changing option, since they literally stop puberty, a major life change, from happening.
Lastly, if someone actually wants surgery then it is cosmetic surgery, not mutilation.
Not much of a future for the disordered when politicians ban treatment like conversion therapy.
If your kid says they’re a dog, what do you do, buy dog food?
Conversion "therapy" is not treatment, it is abuse itself.
Conversion therapy isn’t abuse, nor is it mutilation or sterilization.
It simply tries to help the disordered recognize why they think they are something that they aren’t.
Something like asking a man why they think they’re a woman. Then reaffirming that a man can’t know what being a woman feels like, so they must be feeling something else. Simply being attracted to the same sex doesn’t define womanhood. Can they live with that? Then helping them have peace of mind being the person they are without mutilating and sterilizing themselves on a hunch.
Puberty is part of the life experiences growing up which will contribute to the adult deciding whether he is trans or gay or whatever. The child does not have the maturity that comes from these life experiences and can not make a mature decision about gender or sexual orientation. Nobody, including the parents, can make a decision like that for someone else.
There is no biological science that shows transgender is is anything but psychological.
You have that 180 out. There is no no evidence being transgender is psychological.
Except for all the transgender suicides? Even post treatment they’re croaking themselves in droves.
If trans suicides bother you, you should support affirming treatment and family/community support. Both of those, and suicides are no higher than the expected background level for their age.
Of course, that's not the point is it, you want to make sure suicides stay high so you can falsely blame being transgender itself, rather than being denied treatment and surrounded by bigotry like yours.
Keeping you from abusing children will reduce suicides to a far greater extent.
“ Suicide and Suicidal Behavior among Transgender Persons
Prevalence of suicide and suicidal behavior among transgender persons
[…]
The suicidal behavior and suicide attempt rates are reported to be significantly high among transgender persons compared to general population across the countries. Thirty-one percent of transgender persons in India end their life by committing suicide, and 50% of them have attempted for suicide at least once before their 20th birthday;[6] however, the exact prevalence of completed suicide among transgender persons in the country remain undocumented.[6] Forty-one percent of the transgender persons in the United States attempt for suicide at least once in their life.[8] In San Francisco, the prevalence of attempted suicide among transgender persons is 32%, among young age (<25 years) it is 50%.[9] Suicidality and self-harm behavior are serious problems among sexual minorities in Japan.[10] Transgender persons are at higher risk for suicidal ideation and suicide attempts at Virginia.[11] Fifty percent of transgender persons in Australia have attempted suicide at least once in their lives.[12] In England, 48% of the transgender young people had attempted suicide at least once in their lives.[13] The prevalence of suicide remains high among transgender persons irrespective of disclosing their transgender status to others and undergoing sex reassignment surgery.[8]“
What you cited in bold gives the liar's game away. If someone is forced to undergo an unwanted puberty, they generally do not need to disclose the fact they are transgender for others to know it. With that known, the transgender person then experiences the abuse which drives them into depression and suicide. That knowledge then exists whether or not the victim of the abuse has had any surgeries in particular -- so that has nothing to do with it.
No.
The point is that even a full physical “affirmation” of the transgender person’s chosen gender, even when there are no secrets being kept, that the suicide rate is still astronomical which clearly indicates unresolved, profound psychiatric and psychological problems.
Not every transgender person decides on their sexual identity before puberty, so there will always be a subset who don’t “benefit” from pre-pubescent reassignment hormones or surgical knives.
Their problems are psychological and psychiatric.
There is even less evidence of a physiological cause.
No, moron, there is sole evidence of a physiological cause. That is why you will never present evidence of a psychological cause.
Hahahahahaha
There is no such thing as "transgender".
There is only gender dysphoria which should be treated as you would an anorexic, who thinks they are fat, when they are nothing but skin and bones - through therapy.
You don't give anorexics diet pills or gastric bypass surgery and you don't treat the gender dysphoric with puberty blockers or surgical mutilation.
Not treating mental illness for what it is, is cruel.
"They’re a complete rejection of the legitimacy of these procedures..." because that is what these illegitimate procedures should have happen to them.
" There is no such thing as "transgender". " <-- Liar, people who are recognizably transgender exist in every human population throughout history.
Anorexia is an inability to correctly perceive your physical self -- no such thing is going on in a transgender person, they have no delusions, they have no mental illness.
If an "inability to correctly perceive your physical self " doesn't describe gender dysphorics, nothing does.
Liar, people who are recognizably *disturbed* exist in every human population throughout history. Transgenderism is EXACTLY the inability to correctly perceive yourself. In both cases, the dysfunction is between what the brain says and what the body shows.
And in a majority of cases for children, there is an adult who is feeding this misconception. By nature, children seek affirmation from adults and are very willing to form themselves around the wishes of the significant adult in their life, and this has been proven in every other aspect of life as well. Their performance is almost always as planned and expected. Your lack of willingness to admit this infers that you are likely one of those abusive adults or one of those who has been fooled by an abusive adult. Let's not pretend you don't have issues.
Without a physical medical explanation like DNA, a gay gene for example, there is zero material evidence that people are “born that way”.
Kids will say the darnedest things.
There is plenty of observed evidence of people changing their gender identity, sexual preferences, throughout life. This observation alone refutes that one gender identity is assigned at birth.
If there ever is a gay gene found, the disorder will finally receive the medical recognition the gay community wants.
Idiot, there are physical, medical explanations for why people are transgender. There are genes associated with someone being gay.
" Kids will say the darnedest things. " <-- So what? Just because you are too ignorant to tell a phase from something lifelong doesn't mean others aren't smarter than you are.
" There is plenty of observed evidence of people changing their gender identity, sexual preferences, throughout life. " <-- No, there are not. People changing how they act is their instincts changing.
" This observation alone refutes that one gender identity is assigned at birth. " <-- The example of David Reimer alone proves you are abjectly wrong.
" If there ever is a gay gene found, the disorder will finally receive the medical recognition the gay community wants. " <-- It is already true that "gay" genes have been found.
Cite?
There are no gay genes recognized by the scientific community. You can’t just make shit up. Prove your claim.
We know that we can choose to change our behaviour unless we are disordered. That’s why psychology and the concept of mental disorder exists. To help people whose instincts are self destructive, change.
I am intimately familiar with the Human Genome Project which mapped over 2 Billion genomes. There are NO gay genes, no trans genes or any other alphabet genes. However, there are often very consistent explanations of why people do have these issues based on prior sexual trauma and/or rejection within the social norms.
Your presumption that a single or even a handful of genetic mutations is the exception that proves there are no norms is beyond silly and deserves no further comment.
Yes, there is, you ignorant shithead.
Neuroscientists have documented brain similarities in transgender people with the gender they identify as more than their biological sex.
That's like the brain-shape studies that purport to show the physicality of "addiction".
No idiot, it is not the same. These are brain structures normal -- found in just about everyone -- for people who say they are men or women.
Major stretch using brain structures as reasoning for your biological sex being wrong.
There is no such thing as right or wrong with DNA. You are what you are and have to live with it.
If these people "feel" more like women, cool. Be an effeminate man. If the feelings are psychological, you're mentally ill but not it's not like you can't function in civil society. If the feelings are physical, something is seriously wrong with you as you cannot change your biological sex.
I find most trans supporters to be painfully sexist because every time they try to justify how they are the opposite sex, they cannot explain without resorting to sex stereotypes. Never actually talked to someone I knew was a troon IRL and I seriously doubt they would answer such questions candidly.
" Major stretch using brain structures as reasoning for your biological sex being wrong. " <-- No, it's no stretch at all. It is a huge stretch to claim the brain is not what produces gender.
" If the feelings are physical, something is seriously wrong with you as you cannot change your biological sex. " <-- No, something is seriously wrong with you if you think what is between the legs of a person is what creates gender, or that that is what is supposed to rule their life -- or give you permission to rule theirs.
" I find most trans supporters to be painfully sexist because every time they try to justify how they are the opposite sex, they cannot explain without resorting to sex stereotypes. " <-- I find you to be tremendously stupid for imagining those stereotypes exist for no reason. The reason most women are less happy the more "feminists" get what they say they want is, most feminists are not like most women.
Tdperk has to be a troll....but it is fun watching the account get made a fool of anyway...
Parents who decide to abuse children are not engaged in parenting. No, parents do not have the right to begin sex-change hormone therapy or sex-change surgery on their children.
Children are not dress-up dolls for parents. Parents have no right to act out their liberal fantasies on their kids.
" Children are not dress-up dolls for parents. " <-- So what? That has nothing to do with this.
" Parents have no right to act out their liberal fantasies on their kids. " <-- That has nothing to do with it either. People who are recognizably transgender have existed in ever human population throughout history.
" Parents who decide to abuse children are not engaged in parenting. " <-- So what? The only one sounding you want children to be abused of the two of us is you.
" No, parents do not have the right to begin sex-change hormone therapy or sex-change surgery on their children. " <-- Yes, they do, and that is far better than the government owning the children as you prefer. It is also true it does not happen but per WPATH protocols in any case, which do not recommend surgeries on children, and for which the diagnosis rate with consequent medical/surgical transition is over 99%.
You have nothing to complain about, you just want to let your bigot flag fly.
Evidence is that the blockers can cause severe and irreversible damage to children.
This. Very much this.
I've got no horse in this race, not trans, have no teenaged children. So I'm not passing judgement on any of this, whether it's good or bad or whatever.
But it IS life altering. Irreversibly so. Hormonal changes at that stage alter physical growth and development in very significant ways, and when you're done being a teen you're 20. You don't just pause at 13 and wait a while, development a few years later is different and you don't get back what you lost.
Debate amongst yourselves, but include the fact puberty blockers most definitely have a lifelong effect, even if stopped a few years later.
" This. Very much this. " <-- Is a lie.
Not according to the Mayo.
“Use of GnRH analogues might also have long-term effects on:
Growth spurts
Bone growth and density
Future fertility — depending on when pubertal blockers are started”
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075
I wasn't aware zero side effects in 100% of patients was the criteria for treatment. Though I wouldn't be surprised if you're an antivaxxer too, given your attempt to massively exaggerate danger.
When medications have side effects, you look at the chance of them occurring and their severity, compared to the outcome no intervention. Given the high level of psychological distress and suicide associated with lack of affirming treatment, and the rarity of severe or permanent damage, all major medical authorities agree treatment is better.
You don't have any actual evidence otherwise, you're just googling for quotes to justify your bigotry, regardless of how out of context they may be.
You're not aware of a lot of things.
If you insist I have “bigotry” against hormonally or surgically damaging children I can live with that.
Just don’t pretend that there is a good reason not to wait until a child reaches eighteen. Reassignment does not remove the psychiatric issues that lead to suicide, so perhaps those years until majority can be spent in handling that set of psychological problems that frequently result in suicide, reassignment or not.
These are not side effects.
No. There is no such evidence.
That is why you won't post any.
Yes, there is. I’ve posted Mayo Clinic docs and US NIH docs, above.
I've told him this multiple times, he ignores it or calls it all a lie.
I think there is a set of pro-child-reassignment socks being inflated around here.
No, there has never been in over 40 years any such evidence. You are making it up.
Allowing puberty to happen normally without hormone treatment is just as life-changing as hormone treatment. Puberty blockers are actually the least life-changing option, since they literally stop puberty, a major life change, from happening.
Hahahaha, holy shit, this is some nuclear-level gaslighting.
Puberty blockers literally stop a natural biological process from taking place, in order to facilitate an unnatural event.
They do nothing facilitate an "unnatural event". If they are stopped without cross-sex HRT, the puberty the sex would produce simply resumes. You are doing the gaslighting.
Not according to Mayo. Are you an endocrinologist?
No, Mayo says no such thing.
Yes, they actually do. I’ve posted the quote and link in this thread.
No, puberty doesn't resume normally, it does resume but the damage is not completely undone. Messing with hormones and development is not as simple as flipping a switch.
Psssh, of course it is. And even if it isn't, we can just pump those who decide they made a mistake full of the appropriate hormones to turn it back on. Do you even science bro?
/s for those whose detector may be broken
It has never in over 40 years been known to interfere with puberty later progressing normally. That is why you have not and cannot cite any evidence that has ever occurred.
" Messing with hormones and development is not as simple as flipping a switch. " <-- In this case it is.
Then do it at eighteen. Keep your hands off children, why is that so difficult for you?
Tdperk and Shackelford have the same base level argument that is used by child predators. That there is no age at which a child doesn't have full agency to make decisions regarding their own sexuality, whether that be to change it or use it.
My guess is that investigating the computer used to write these endless and childlike rebuttals would yield a treasure trove of charges. Anyone willing to enable the permanent alteration of child development, particularly with such fervor, has significant issues that they simply can't hide, no matter how hard they try to sound reasonable and normal.
Yeah, read the article; "and the effects are more easily reversed."
He's deep in fantasy at that point. So deep in denial nitrogen narcosis is a risk. So are you, apparently. The least life changing option is to do nothing, and let puberty happen; Almost all cases of prepubescent gender dysphoria resolve at that point.
It is, in fact, a long, long way from established that puberty blockers are fully reversible. They haven't been widely used long enough to have a track record.
" It is, in fact, a long, long way from established that puberty blockers are fully reversible. They haven't been widely used long enough to have a track record. " <-- They've been used for over 40 years with no signs of any permanent negative effects. What are you looking for?
Mayo says you’re lying. Don’t lie.
Mayo says nothing of the sort, because the fact they're not recommending against them should have clued your dumb ass into the small incidence of permanent damage. In the vast majority of cases they're fully reversible. Given the high incidence of suicide you're no doubt aware of, and given that affirming treatment dramatically reduces it, you're basically rehashing why you shouldn't take the covid vaccine because of myocarditis even though covid causes myocarditis more often.
Actually, they specifically note that there can be residual damage depending on when they are given. I’ve posted that link elsewhere in this thread.
I said nothing about any vaccine, so I find your weird reach very revealing. Quite a team player for those fifty cents, aren’t you.
No, Mayo says no such thing -- that is why you can not quote it.
Don’t lie, it increases your karmic burden. I’ve posted the link to the Mayo doc elsewhere in this thread, but since you aren’t very good at this, here you go:
“ Pubertal blockers for transgender and gender-diverse youth
By Mayo Clinic Staff
[…]
What are the possible side effects and complications?
It's important for your child to stay on schedule with all related medical appointments. Contact your child's doctor if any changes cause you or your child concern.
Possible side effects of GnRH analogue treatment include:
Injection site swelling
Weight gain
Hot flashes
Headaches
Use of GnRH analogues might also have long-term effects on:
Growth spurts
Bone growth and density
Future fertility — depending on when pubertal blockers are started
Children may have their height checked every three months. Bone density is also checked periodically. If bone growth or density is a concern, your child's health care provider might prescribe a different medication, stop treatment with GnRH analogues or recommend the best time to start cross-hormone therapy.
If children with male genitalia begin using GnRH analogues early in puberty, they might not develop enough penile and scrotal skin for certain gender affirming genital surgical procedures, such as penile inversion vaginoplasty. Alternative techniques, however, are available.
In addition, delaying puberty beyond one's peers can be stressful. Your child might experience lower self-esteem.”
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075
They've been used for 40 years in very limited medical usage for very short time only to treat precocious puberty, not to delay normal puberty. And despite this, there is actual documented long term health impacts, even in these cases. However, precocious puberty is seen as causing more harm, so the benefits outweigh the risks in these few isolated cases. The use of them in normal development is not well researched. And the benefits of these treatments are dubious, and hardly shown to outweigh the documented known risks of these drugs.
Kids are only political props in some weird psychodrama these people are having with the ghosts (of parents or preachers or molesters) in their heads. It is a very peculiar thing to see in-situ advocates for slashing at children with scalpels and hormones in Reason.
" They've been used for 40 years in very limited medical usage for very short time only to treat precocious puberty, not to delay normal puberty. " <-- They have been in use for over 40 years in some cases for over ten years in person's life. You are pig ignorant of their actual use and lying to claim you are not.
" And despite this, there is actual documented long term health impacts, even in these cases. " <-- No, there is not. These drugs are for example far more safe than apsirin and have a "side effect" profile similar to plain saline.
" The use of them in normal development is not well researched. " <-- Been used for this around 30 years with no such problems as you claim.
"And the benefits of these treatments are dubious, and hardly shown to outweigh the documented known risks of these drugs. " <-- The benefits are drastic and obvious -- bigots like you don't know whom to target. You have named no actual risks seen in people.
Cite that says “The benefits are drastic and obvious” needed.
Where did you get the idiotic idea that children are having sex-change operations?
Is it simply that you are an idiot?
No, you are. Now off with you. Adults are having a conversation.
No, so far I am the only informed adult here.
Heh. What’s the transgender suicide rate?
For people treated the way you want? A 40%+ suicide attempt rate.
For people treated properly -- the same as their peers.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4771131/
https://www.gendergp.com/gender-affirming-care-reduces-teen-suicide-american-academy-pediatrics-new-study/
You lose, because you lie.
Transgender people, treated or not kill themselves in vast numbers because of the unaddressed psychiatric problems.
In any case, just keep your hands off of the children.
You can make all the life choices you want at eighteen since no one else is alleged to make decisions for you as an adult.
Man you are on a roll. Hahahahahaha
As Shackford wrote in a post a few months ago, he was a queen activist in college and sees these issues through that lens. This is an essential part of his personal ideology.
There is no such thing as a transgender minor.
There are people of all ages with gender dysphoria, the disorder.
While it may be politically correct to deform and sterilize adults, it never is to do so to children.
Nonsense. Any who is transgender is born that way.
Gender dysphoria is not even a disorder, it is the expected result of the sexual dimorphism of a person's brain and sex diverging in the course of development. Political correctness has nothing to do with it, is a medical condition.
It is absolutely a mental disorder.
Not only no, it is not a mental disorder, you will be unable to present any factual evidence it is a mental disorder.
Denial of biological reality is the epitome of a mental disorder.
Correct.
"My mind thinks it's in the wrong body"
Doesn't get more disordered than that.
But the brain is every bit as biological as the sex is, the brain is in charge, and the brain is normal -- in a transgender person, normal for the sex opposite than seen between the person's legs.
It is physical birth defect, no more, no less.
Why do transgender people kill themselves so frequently even after “reassignment”? It’s because dysphoria is a psychological/psychiatric condition.
This isn't supported by much evidenced and flies in the face of our understanding of hormonal mediated fetal brain development. It's also not been documented in animal models or brain scans. There are detectable differences in male and female brains, however, as with any biologic system it's more a continuum than two divergent points. Even despite this, brain scans of transgender youths don't differ from the norm of same sex peers enough to declare them the opposite sex. If it did, a simple brain scan would be all that is needed for diagnosis. As puberty also impacts brain development, the brain is highly plasticity until around age 25. The brain is highly regulated based on sex hormones, so messing with those without definitive proof is highly suspect from a bio-ethics standpoint.
The fact is that the brain scans simply aren't different enough from the genetive norms to declare them diagnostic. So therefore there isn't enough scientific evidence to declare them to have the wrong sex brain.
XXY is a defect.
XY or XX that *thinks* or *feels* it's something else is a psychological/emotional disorder.
For instance, in the UK a survey of 3398 attendees of a gender identity clinic found that just sixteen – about 0.47% – experienced transition-related regret. Of these, even fewer went on to actually detransition.
Detransition US Statistics
In the US, a survey of nearly 28,000 people found that only eight percent of respondents reported some kind of detransition. Of these, sixty-two percent only did so temporarily.
Destransition Sweden Statistics
In Sweden, a fifty-year longitudinal study on a cohort of 767 transgender people found that around two percent of participants expressed regret following gender-affirming surgery, although it is unclear how many of these participants were detransitioning as a consequence.
Destransition Netherlands Statistics
In the Netherlands, a study of transgender young people found that only 1.9% of young people on puberty blockers did not want to continue with the medical transition.
Without a physical medical explanation like DNA, a gay gene for example, there is zero material evidence that people are “born that way”.
Kids will say the darnedest things.
There is plenty of observed evidence of people changing their gender identity, sexual preferences, throughout life. This observation alone refutes that one gender identity is assigned at birth.
If there ever is a gay gene found, the disorder will finally receive the medical recognition the gay community wants
Evolution would have sent a homosexual gene, with its inherent non-reproductive characteristic, into the dustbin of extinction, long ago.
The homosexual alphabet cadre are all manifestations of mental illness - nothing less than profound delusions.
There are all kinds of genetic disorders people are born with.
This one in particular could be forced to propagate when the need to reproduce exceeds the desire for same sex.
Incongruent gender identity is still either a disorder or a choice.
It is not a denial of biological reality, it is the understanding of what biological reality really is -- the sex is not the only sexually dimorphic tissue in a person. The brain is as physical and biological as is the sex.
You are the one here denying biological reality.
now do cannibals...
There isn’t any medical science that supports your claims. Burden of proof is on you, not us.
No, because your ideas failed for over 50 years, the burden of proof is on you. Mine are fact based, and they are working.
Cite?
It is a disorder with an extraordinarily high rate of suicide attached, whether or not the suffering person is subjected to “transition” treatments.
No. You are simply wrong.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4771131/
The suicide rate is "attached" to how much abuse a persons suffers at the hands of such evil idiots as yourself -- not to whether they are transgender.
Wrong. The suicide rate is astronomically high in gender dysmorphia, because it is a psychological/ psychiatric problem.
“Suicide and Suicidal Behavior among Transgender Persons
Abstract
Background:
Suicide rate and suicidal tendencies among transgender persons are considerably high compared to general population. Hence, this review is an attempt to understand the issues around the suicide and suicidal behavior among transgender persons.
[…]
RESULTS
Prevalence of suicide and suicidal behavior among transgender persons
The suicidal behavior and suicide attempt rates are reported to be significantly high among transgender persons compared to general population across the countries. Thirty-one percent of transgender persons in India end their life by committing suicide, and 50% of them have attempted for suicide at least once before their 20th birthday;[6] however, the exact prevalence of completed suicide among transgender persons in the country remain undocumented.[6] Forty-one percent of the transgender persons in the United States attempt for suicide at least once in their life.[8] In San Francisco, the prevalence of attempted suicide among transgender persons is 32%, among young age (<25 years) it is 50%.[9] Suicidality and self-harm behavior are serious problems among sexual minorities in Japan.[10] Transgender persons are at higher risk for suicidal ideation and suicide attempts at Virginia.[11] Fifty percent of transgender persons in Australia have attempted suicide at least once in their lives.[12] In England, 48% of the transgender young people had attempted suicide at least once in their lives.[13] The prevalence of suicide remains high among transgender persons irrespective of disclosing their transgender status to others and undergoing sex reassignment surgery.[8]
[…]”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/
If you click through to the source material you find it's based on a survey that doesn't ask about whether suicide attempts were before or after transitioning. So one then must ask... correlation or causation? Are transgender people who've been upset with their dysphoria enough to seek surgery those who were also more likely to have attempted suicide before it? The survey was not designed to answer the question.
I take it you consider all studies that evaluate the timing of suicide attempts to answer that question as invalid, since they don't give the answer you're looking for.
This being a rather obvious issue with that claim, it's almost like you didn't actually look into the science at all and just found something you think supports the bigotry you spew. Of course, now you look like a fucking moron who can't understand how science works... but then if you weren't, you wouldn't be a bigoted jackoff.
You can certainly speculate about why the suicide rate is so high (whether or not reassignment is performed) - but the fact that the rate is so high is pretty indicative of a really bad psychiatric/ psychological problem that isn’t really touched by the physical alterations.
By the way, does pointing out this terrible fact make me a bigot? Is this what is known as “inappropriate science”?
Not only that, but it is being pushed hard right now and is currently much more nurture than nature.
No, in fact every time Menglesque monsters like you and Dr. Money tried to make someone be transgender by nurture, you failed horribly -- ask David Reimer.
How do you Mengele someone without putting your “doctors’” hands on the victim? Could you illuminate this please?
He can't. He's just throwing shit out there and seeing if anything sticks.
Seems like some kind of somewhat stupid psychological projection.
Everything you just said is a lie. It is a mental disorder deeply rooted in a persons discomfort in themselves. Children are uncomfortable as it is and adults pushing this nonsense prey upon their vulnerability to suggest that their feelings of discomfort must be due to gender dysphoria. It's wrong to push such agendas on children.
No. It is no mental disorder. The gender specific brain structures in the human brain are normal in a transgender person -- they resemble the brains of the gender they claim as much as do others apparently born to that gender. The instincts they feel to identify from among those around them as to whom to emulate in growing up are perfectly normal for others which such brain structures -- but they are in conflict with the sex between their legs. These are physical facts, not an agenda.
It is an agenda to claim the sex and not the brain is the real person and should be in charge...
Denial of biological reality is the epitome of a mental disorder.
Perkie appears to be a very ignorant and delusional individual.
Then you have a mental disorder, because you are denying the brain is biological.
You seem unaware of how fetal hormonal levels impact brain development and can't explain what would change these developments. Nor do brain scans prove your case of marked difference between transgendered brains and the same sex peers. Definitely they are not closer to the opposite sex brain norms, than they are to the same sex peers.
Denying you're a man when you actually are one is a mental disorder, troon.
So is someone's gender whatever they identify as or what brain structure they have?
And you're a legend in your own mind, taking victory laps when you are still in the chute.
Says the person who has not cited much data and ignores any citation or dismisses any citation that counters his argument. You label everyone else mistaken but have provided little but baseless assertions as evidence of this. And blatant appeals to authority (all the doctors, all the experts, etc.).
"but they are in conflict with the sex between their legs"
Literally disorder
Literally a birth defect.
Birth defect in the brain? Makes sense, since there are plenty of organic brain disorders that effect behavior and perception.
So you're saying transgendered people are born defective?
Transgendered people have a disorder - their conception of themselves is out of order with the biological and genetic reality of what they are.
“ The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5)1 provides for one overarching diagnosis of gender dysphoria with separate specific criteria for children and for adolescents and adults.”
If the DSM lists it, it’s a recognized disorder. If it’s wasn’t, doctors wouldn’t be allowed to mutilate and sterilize the afflicted to ease their suffering.
DSM does not call it disorder, moron.
What does “DSM” mean, genius?
The same diagnosis was called “gender identity disorder” in DSM 4 and apparently changing the name to “gender dysphoria” did make you feel like it wasn’t a disorder, as planned.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
That's the key. I doubt there are enough woke school counselors to mislead very many minor students, but there are a lot more woke parents doing that to their own children, and that is what is really going on here. It's one thing for parents to approve tattoos or piercings. It's another entirely to acquiesce in their children's temporary delusional fads, let alone push their children into it.
There's a reason children can't sign contracts -- they are not adults. They should not be allowed life-changing permanent changes except as treatment for life-threatening medical problems, and cross-dressing and penis envy are not life-threatening.
" You should not use sex-change surgery or hormone blockers on minors for trans-issues. " <-- Yes, because of the immense net misery it prevents, per WPATH protocols it should be available and legal. People interfering with it should be jailed, people interfering with it under color of law should be shot.
You should be in this video: https://t.co/Ww7jRxguwV
To everyone else: Good Morning Y'all, be the change you want to see in the world
You should have fact to back up your mindless bigotry -- but then you are only a mindless bigot.
Translation: I have nothing to back up my bullshit beliefs so I’ll scream “bigot”. Go back to WaPo. Your kind of shit doesn’t play here.
Says the person bringing memes and no facts.
Transgender people off themselves post-transition because of their mental issues are unaddressed by having parts of their bodies chopped-off and themselves pumped with hormones.
May one of your victims fathers do the right thing and eliminate the possibility of you continuing to be a threat to minors.
You are the only one here trying to victimize children -- of course, because they are transgender, you just discount them as untermensch.
Baseless assertions again.
Imagine being so mentally fucked that you think someone saying "whoa there, you should probably wait till you are a legal adult to make such a life changing decision" is the one trying to victimize children.
And I thought Tony was fucked up.
The people trying victimize children are the people pushing for transgender diagnosis and intervention in children to try to legitimize the notion of seeing minors as "serial beings"
*"sexual beings"
Very much this ^.
It is child abuse for the State to push this. And schools need to stay out of a youngster's time growing up and determining their sexual preference. These are the most vulnerable to adults with an agenda. leave the kid alone, when they become an adult they can decide..
It’s the gay community and much of society in general who refuse to recognize that mixed up gender identity is a disorder.
As if ignorance will ease the suffering and make sterilization and mutilation okay.
They have successfully lobbied to ban non invasive psychological therapies.
Truly we are living in a society that lets the lunatics run the asylum. Don’t kid yourself.
They've refuse to recognize that mixed up gender identity is a disorder, because they've convinced far too many people that their homosexuality is not a disorder.
Both are rooted in delusion, something that becomes an illness when it prompts alteration of what is present in every biological entity in nature.
The natural driving force is one of attraction to facilitate reproduction, to propagate the species.
Homosexuality is the delusion that one is physically attracted to others, that cannot result in reproduction. The "transgender" craze is similar in that, one who succumbs to this delusion is also on a non-reproductive course of life.
Both are mental defects, in need of what can be done through mental therapy, NOT surgical and chemical mutilation.
No. Attraction is a feeling. It stands on its own and is irrefutable because it can only be felt by the one who feels it.
Actual sex is a physical reality.
Homicidal tendencies are feelings too.
Murder is illegal to protect the innocent.
Re homosexuality: While not definitively proving causation, research has found a correlation between abnormally high exposure to estrogen in the womb for men/testosterone in the womb for women and homosexuality. So there is at least a potential biological explanation/cause for homosexuality.
The Hippocratic oath requires “do no harm”.
That means don’t mutilate and sterilize on a hunch.
If men are exposed to something in utero that might result in stress mutilation and sterilization we should identify and reduce that exposure first, then help them be the men they were going to be without the unwanted exposure.
Exposure to the drug DES in the first trimester increases rate of MtoF transsexuality 500 fold. It's not exactly a subtle effect.
That's one of the reasons a physiological cause was suspected, rather than a psychological cause as assumed a century ago.
However, most cases are not caused by medical mistakes, like left handedness or 120+ IQ they just happen sometimes.
Scott needs to think about this..as a gay man does he want the trans for child agenda to be hitched to what most Americans believe (that adult choices of their sexual orientation are not the govt's business)? The gay community needs to rethink if this segment has anything to do with adults who choice same sex as their preference.
If you don't allow 10 year olds to marry, drink alcohol or have sex, why in the world would you allow them to do a sex change? Marriage is reversible with divorce. Hormones and surgery are not reversible and over 95% of those who start on this end up sterile. The fastest growing support groups are for de-transitioning. Plus the vast majority of the increase in those transitioning are girls. Many of which find out that they are lesbians instead.
I don't infer anything about how a kid acts or dresses. But anything irreversible should wait for legal adulthood.
Amen
You pretty much said it. I personally know of parents who are raising their children as "gender neutral". They brag about it on social media to show how "woke" they are. There's going to be some screwed up kids in a few years.
It’s ironic that woke means oblivious to reality.
Puberty blockers are only FDA approved for severe early onset puberty, and then are only approved for use for a short period. Puberty blockers in long term use haven't been fully studied, but the data does show a significant risk for infertility and reproductive cancers. Additionally, there is very little evidence that transitioning has any benefits to the patients mental health. The suicide rate remains mostly unchanged, and depression remains a serious issue as well. The rate of detransitioning and transition remorse is also extremely high according to findings in the UK, where this has been going on longer, in some cases as much as 25-50%. Considering that many of the effects of puberty blockers, hormone treatment and especially surgical reassignment are not reversible, why are we allowing immature youths to make these decisions in the first place?
So they are like horse dewormer?
Can you provide citations for suicide rates you suggested?
We’re you really not aware of this?
“ Suicide and Suicidal Behavior among Transgender Persons Nov - Dec 2016
[…]
Results:
The suicide attempt rate among transgender persons ranges from 32% to 50% across the countries. ”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/
" and then are only approved for use for a short period " <-- Liar.
They are approved for use from the time the condition is detected to the point puberty would usually begin, and that can be over 10 year's time.
" Puberty blockers in long term use haven't been fully studied, but the data does show a significant risk for infertility and reproductive cancers. " <-- You lie again. Puberty blockers have been in use for over 40 years after the experimental phase of the ir use and no such thing has been noted.
" Additionally, there is very little evidence that transitioning has any benefits to the patients mental health. " <-- Another lie, but at least that is one you probably heard from some fraudulent "authority figure" like Paul McHugh.
" The suicide rate remains mostly unchanged, and depression remains a serious issue as well. " <-- Wrong at best. Probably a lie you love though, this is what is real: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4771131/
No elevated depression, and barely elevated anxiety.
" The rate of detransitioning and transition remorse is also extremely high according to findings in the UK, where this has been going on longer, in some cases as much as 25-50%. " <-- No, the rate of detransition of people who transition medically/surgically is under 3%, and of those only 1/3rd detransiton because they feel it was a mistake in the first place.
" Considering that many of the effects of puberty blockers, " <-- Puberty blockers are 100% reversible, with plausible positive side effect a extra inch or two of height.
" hormone treatment and especially surgical reassignment are not reversible, " <-- So what? The puberty their birth sex would inflict on them is also not reversible, and it is a catastrophe for them.
" why are we allowing immature youths to make these decisions in the first place? " <-- Because that is when the decision has to be made to avoid that catastrophe if they chose to avoid it. Other than the time puberty blockers grant them, their is no delay possible.
Puberty blockers have been in use for over 40 years after the experimental phase of the ir use and no such thing has been noted.
Yeah, for legitimate medical purposes where puberty hormones might have actual degenerative effects, not to facilitate the delusions of munchie parents, or kids who are desperate to adopt the mantle of an oppressed class.
Pretty sure Perkie is some kook tranny activist.
I just know what I am talking about.
You spew bullshit.
You just know, huh? That is definitive proof. What a fucking joke.
You pretend to have some awareness, when you do not.
“Pubertal blockers for transgender and gender-diverse youth
By Mayo Clinic Staff
[…]
What are the possible side effects and complications?
It's important for your child to stay on schedule with all related medical appointments. Contact your child's doctor if any changes cause you or your child concern.
Possible side effects of GnRH analogue treatment include:
Injection site swelling
Weight gain
Hot flashes
Headaches
Use of GnRH analogues might also have long-term effects on:
Growth spurts
Bone growth and density
Future fertility — depending on when pubertal blockers are started”
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075
And that is not different from the "side effect" profile of plain saline.
Bullshit.
so i did this search:
https://search.brave.com/search?q=%22plain+saline%22+side+effects
and clicked a few of the links... couldn't find fertility anywhere...
so, in your own words.... LIAR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjJJnz2_85w
BTW, no such things as "future fertility" effects have been seen in over 40 years.
Take that up with Mayo, because you’re claiming an absolute that they do not claim. I think you’re wrong.
In return you could cite something, somewhere that says “40 years no prob” in order to have even a teensie bit of credibility instead of pulling stats from … wherever.
What's the incidence of this "possible" side effect?
Wrong again. They are well documented. They are considered an acceptable risk in treating precocious puberty, as the harmful effects of that are considered even worse. They have not been used for 40 years for gender dysphoria. That didn't really start until around 2012. So about ten years.
Because pedos and their enablers need acceptance that children as young as possible can make adult decisions so their activities are not classified as rape.
^this
The whole tranny children push is an attempt to grant legitimacy to the notion that prepubescent children are "sexual beings".
These are sick, despicable predators pushing this shit.
^that, is horseshit spewed to try to justify treating some kids like their lives don't count, and they should sacrifice themselves for the sake of your moral vanity.
You are a child predator, and you're pissed that your bullshit ruse has been called out.
No, moron, because the puberty they do not want happening to a transgender child screws them up for life.
Weird that you think never going through puberty isn’t being “screwed up for life”.
And as a side effect, non-sexual activities between children and adults are viewed suspiciously as if they were sexual.
Know how it's often brought out that the great majority of sexual abuse of children is between family members? Well, here ya go: parental assent to (encouragement of) these "gender" treatments.
When did we "transition" to the bizarro world?
Until the mid 80's steroid use among athletes was rampant. Little was known or is known about the long term effects. One only needs to read Bruce Jenner's early biography to ask the question "Did the steroids he took cause his change?"
My daughter, a very intelligent young lady, wanted to go to Hogwarts and was half expecting to get her letter on her 11th birthday. I don't consider the wishes of a 11 yo realistic.
And there are parents advocating for allowing their child to choose, complete with hormone therapy, well before age 11.
I think if you had to pick one little microcosm of the sickness that has come over society, it would be significantly altering a child's hormone profile because "they told me they were a different gender and I believe them". The globohomo pride groomers movement has warped these people's brains beyond repair.
Don't get me wrong. If they are 18 and make these decisions I have no problem with it, but minors shouldn't be allowed to make these decisions, and their parents shouldn't either.
It seems ironic that many of the same people who are pushing gender reassignment for kids also are upset when parents elect to have their babies circumcised.
I think this is the microcosm. Children are by definition incompetent. The children cannot make the decision, and no one should be able to make it for them.
It's even more ironic that many of them don't think I have a right to decide if my kids get the covid vaccine.
These parents are woke idiots. This is just grandiose virtue signaling to their woke friends. At the expense of their own children. A monstrous form of Munchausen’s by proxy.
Imagine what their virtue signaling takes when it will involve supporting pedophile rights. This is another reason to get rid of the democrats now.
My son, not 11, wants to play football. I have the wherewithal to set him up with a PEDs regime that would turn him into a monster and likely (on par with him having adverse outcome from COVID) wouldn't have any negative impact on his health beyond the loss of strength/mass incurred when he decided to quit. If anyone caught me doing so, I almost certainly would face charges of child abuse. Seriously, a decent number of health food stores don't allow unattended minors and won't sell anything, even dry milk and egg protein, to them and, if you mention giving it to them in front of the cashier, you will get an obligatory "None of our products are intended for use by minors." message regurgitated to you.
Given that, I don't see the problem with what TX is doing.
Hell, casinos won't permit youth on the gambling floor. Period.
But Scott wants them to decide to hack their dicks off on a whim and have adults HELP them do it.
To be fair, he just thinks the state shouldn't stop parents from giving their kids drugs, not wholesale cutting their privates off.
He wants to increase the size of his dating pool.
If you kid thinks they are a super hero then the parent must reinforce their belief the can fly and encourage them to jump off of a building
Unfortunately, gene therapy that would allow them to develop kryptonian super powers is still a few years off. In the same way that there is no medical procedure to actually change genders.
Well, don't keep us on pins and needles. Did she get in? Is she now a practitioner of magic?
I do not care that you pretend that has anything to do with it.
You’re really in the wrong once to be promoting far left tranny doctrine. Especially when it comes to dragging and butchering children.
There is no such thing as "far left tranny doctrine" there is only the fact all the physical evidence points to this being a physical birth defect as much as a harelip is. Nature already did the mutilation any surgeries the have (and they have them as adults) is the repair of that as much as possible.
Yes psychiatric treatment to prevent self-harm driven by dysphoric self image ought to be treated.
Then, at 18 then can load up on the hormones and shave-off those parts of themselves that are so problematic. It’s yet one more perk of getting older.
Do you also consider the medical opinions of her doctor unrealistic?
General Paxton is committed to the health and safety of all Texans, as well as safeguarding Texans’ right to individual liberty. An individual’s freedom to make personal decisions cannot be infringed.
- from Texas Attorney Generals gov Website.
Yup. Until you're 18, by law, you ain't a Texan.
Always nice to know they have an out on "cannot be infringed".
I'm as pro-2A as they come. I would prefer the rules against thermonuclear and AOE weapons be enforced by lenders and liability insurance companies rather than legislation. Even I can see how legislation saying "4 yr. olds should not own thermonuclear weapons." has some validity. If you're unable to understand and respect the rights that have been granted to you (and everyone else), there's a widespread and well-documented position that you don't get (in any sense of the word) them.
I am not for kids getting trans surgery either but also I don't care. This is stupid, just like any parent who thinks thier kid has a grip on their identity before it is even formed. There are tons of other issues that matter more. I'd rather the government focus on them just like SF parents wanted the school board to focus on teaching kids first and foremost.
I thought it was until you owned a gun and can butcher a cow?
The way to think about this is, whose rights are being violated by parents and children consenting and getting what they want? The answer of course is nobody's. Busy-bodies in the government may think they know what's best, and they very well may in this case, but that's hardly a function of government to impose their will on their subjects.
The proper role of the state is to protect our rights. No rights are being violated here when parents and children consent to these surgeries. You could make the argument from a moral or even logical standpoint that it's a bad idea to transition a minor, but what business is that of the state?
I really dont know where the line is in terms of how mature a kid has to be to be able to decide, and for parents to go along with that decision if we know it leads to significant adverse outcomes.
Should we step in if the parents are allowing their kids to do drugs? Alcohol? What if their kid believes they are a free range pig and chooses to roll around in mud and sleep outside in the cold? What if the kid decides they were born with too many fingers and wants to chop off 3-4 of them?
I dont like the idea of govt telling parents how to raise their kids thats for sure. But if we are going to have laws essentially protecting children from their parents being negligent, we have to draw the line somewhere. And allowing a child to make a life changing (and often depression/anxiety/mental disorder inducing) decision before they can possibly understand how badly they are harming themselves...feels wrong. I dunno what the answer is
What if the kid decides they were born with too many fingers and wants to chop off 3-4 of them?
In the context of making a boy into a girl or vice versa, why stop at 3-4 fingers? Why not chopping off all 10 by themselves? Or 32 for that matter?
I don't disagree with your points.
And allowing a child to make a life changing (and often depression/anxiety/mental disorder inducing) decision before they can possibly understand how badly they are harming themselves...feels wrong. I dunno what the answer is
The libertarian approach in such a case is to err on the side of individual liberty. It doesn't mean that we need to like the outcomes, but it's really none of our (read the state's) business. That's the consequence of choosing liberty over the state's use of force to affect outcomes that the majority values over the individual.
Trans issues with respect to children is hardly a hill to die on. This is no more than Conservative vs Liberal culture war stuff. Cases of children getting these surgeries are so rare that it's not worth the precedent of allowing the state more control over our healthcare decisions. It can't be true that we simultaneously have both a free state and the ability to save every child from their own (and parent's own) decisions.
Trans issues with respect to children is hardly a hill to die on. This is no more than Conservative vs Liberal culture war stuff.
God, what a neocon argument to make. Culture is far more important than any economic questions ever will be, and has far more pervasive effects and influences through society.
This spineless "Well, I don't support a five year old taking hormone blockers and getting their dick cut off, but who am I to say if it's right or wrong?" is just the latest example in a decades-long history of low future-time orientation in the interests of pathological conflict avoidance.
We have two simple, bright red lines that we have already drawn.
18. 21.
At age 18, they are mostly an adult and can do mostly what they believe is best.
At age 21, they are fully an adult and can do whatever they believe is best.
Pick one.
Before that time, they are not able to consent to these sorts of procedures, and given the abuses that have been perpetrated on children, no one should be able to consent for them.
And claiming the government can prevent their parents from consenting to blockers and HRT is the same thing as claiming the government owns the children, and you are inflicting terrible harm on them.
Why are you proud of yourself?
Assertions made but not supported except by other baseless assertions.
Your entire arguments all night have been nu-uh you are wrong and I am right, just accept it, without evidence.
Cases aren't that rare and growing. The damage is permanent and a large percentage later regret the decisions. Protecting children should always be a hill to die on. If we don't protect children, even from their parents at times, we have given up the moral authority to protect anyone.
As for individual rights, I think that is a fallacious argument. Children aren't understood to have many rights, even by libertarians. They are to immature to make life altering decisions, especially ones that can't be undone. They have no concept, especially pre-pubescent children, of long term consequences. So the only right in play is the rights of the parents to make these decisions. So then the question becomes do parental rights extend to making irreversible changes that will impact their childrens' health and well being for their entire life? We recognize, even libertarians recognize, that in an adult-child dynamic, that the children have no power, because of the influence that adults have. Otherwise libertarians would be opposed to pedophilia laws, incest and all abuse laws. And that simply isn't the case. Yes, the libertarian principle is to err on the side of individual liberty and rights, but it is far from a given that those rights include something nearly as drastic as sex reassignment, given the inability for kids to make an informed decision.
You could only make this argument if you believe that an 8 yo or 6 yo has the ability to understand the consequences fully and make a fully informed decision. Do you believe a 6 yo has the ability to fully comprehend the complexity of this decision? If it is a consistent with their individual liberty, do they have the ability to make a fully informed decision? If not, then is it in the child's best interest for these decisions to be made by their parents? Given the fact that there is a high chance that the kids will regret these decisions later in life, be unable to fully reverse these decisions, have a high likelihood to be permanently incapable of reproducing, have a much higher risk of suicide, have a much higher risk for cancer, substance abuse, sexual promiscuity and associated STDs, etc? Given the higher degree of adverse and often irreversible damage that could happen, isn't it possible that allowing the parents to make these decisions, are denying the kids their future rights of self determination? Why not allow them to wait until they are 18 and considered old enough to make these decisions on their own validity?
This isn't like getting your child baptized, or even raising them in a fundamentalist church, yes those may do some damage, but the child can always choose to leave once they reach maturity. I see it much closer to sexual intercourse. In this, we know that kids have no real volition, and thus are protected from adults in these areas. Even once they reach puberty, we recognize the influence that parents and authority figures can have on them, and we protect them from it (granted in some cases to drastically). We as a society have determined that there is an age at which kids are incapable of making informed decisions, and we have set that at 18 for most things, 21 for others. While we can argue the validity of this age, it is hardly conceivable that it would change much more than a year to two in either direction. If we don't recognize an age of responsibility, then we have declared as a society that a three to has the same volition as a 30 yo.
As if to prove the solicitousness of society toward children, what runs in the video here are ads for baby shampoo.
"Trans issues with respect to children is hardly a hill to die on."
Feel free to tell that to the trans activists who CLEARLY disagree. It would not be a major issue if they were not making it so.
One other question, if the children have enough volition to make these decisions, and the parents disagree, does the state have the right to side on the behalf of the children? If not, then again the argument becomes it isn't the childrens' rights being circumvented it's the parents rights and the question still is, do parents have unlimited rights to modify, use, etc their children? If not, where do we draw the line?
Ill add that the kids are making these decisions in the context of a public school system that is actively pushing the far left agenda, asking kids, very early, if they may be trans, what their sexual orientation is, etc.
They are planting the seeds in these kids head early, and when you take a troubled kid and have state schools whispering in their ear "hey, you might be special too! maybe you are a different gender? maybe you like boys and girls?" its not a great situation.
Also, the tranny stuff is going to be heavily pushed by the state schools and the left, fought by the right. In this scenario, we know for a fact that weird pedo lefties are going to be pushing this stuff, but all of a sudden everyone else has to sit on their hands because muh principles. They arent going to hesitate to indoctrinate and influence. Some things merit action, and this feels like one of them.
And im going to try and not make this an ad hominem, even though it kind of is. But I do feel like you often show up and go to bat for the extreme libertarian positions of "fuck any rationality, individual liberty over all else". ...The positions that make most sane people go "....um libertarians are weird freaks." There has to be a line somewhere, some kind of pragmatism. Im pretty sure the line has to be far away from "let kids choose how to mutilate themselves".
Why it's almost like kids are impressionable or something?
There have been cases where public school faculty had been assisting students getting transitioning medications behind their parent's backs. This is one reason the proposed Florida law is getting such pushback because it requires public school faculty to be transparent with a student's parents about how they are advising their child.
I guess a libertarian case could be made that the government has no role in preventing child abuse. The agencies we have set up for that purpose cause a lot of harm, and it’s not clear that the harm is outweighed by whatever good they might do. I’m not sure would agree with that argument, but it’s not unreasonable.
However, if you start from the premise that government DOES have a role in preventing child abuse, it’s game over for the childhood transitioning stuff. It’s about as clear cut a case of child abuse as you can get.
Should we step in if the parents are allowing their kids to do:
Drugs? Maybe what are they holding.
Alcohol? Absolutely, was the norm.
free range pig... Sure, we called it camping in my day.
too many fingers...They'll take shop class and take care of it themselves using state resources.
If someone's kid identifies as a pig can I make sausage out of them?
" allowing a child to make a life changing (and often depression/anxiety/mental disorder inducing) decision before they can possibly understand how badly they are harming themselves...feels wrong. I dunno what the answer is " <-- Learn the facts and know it i snot even possibly disorder inducing to treat a physical birth defect with best means currently available.
LOL
Die, pedo.
Since you hate children and love hurting them, I think you must be the pedo. You love hurting transgender children, you want hem as hurt and vulnerable as possible.
You must be a pedo tranny chaser.
An advocate for shaving off children’s fleshy parts and tinkering with adolescent hormone profiles calls a knives-off policy regarding children’s balls “abuse”.
Arrange to go nutless at eighteen so no one else has to give a fuck about damaging kids, and then only those people who have to live up close and personal have to deal with all the transgenders’ unaddressed psychiatric problems.
Whose rights are being violated? Considering the data out of the UK on level of regret and detransitioning in youths who have undergone these procedures, and the fact that in many cases, even puberty blockers create long term problems that can't be undone, I would say the kids' rights are being violated as they are to immature to make such a life altering decision at their maturity level. This isn't getting their ears pierced or even consenting to a tattoo but something that will change them for life and is largely irreversible. The it does no one any harm doesn't appear to actually be true. It also is quite debatable if it at all benefits the child. Sorry, but there isn't a right for a parent to massively alter and change the physical nature of their children in a permanent manner, even if their children want it at the time.
You dismiss the example of having an eye or a limb removed. But if the parents consent and the child consent, how is that different than removing their sex organs?
And whatever the rights situation is, the therapists and doctors who are uncritically affirming these kids' claims to be trans. I accept that some people just are that way. But it's certainly preferable to figure out how to be comfortable with your own body rather than to embark on modifications and treatments that will never really make you what you think you are supposed to be.
Yeah, pretty much any time I hear "I'm going to cut someone's [organ] off." it's a sign of aggression. Context might ameliorate the response in terms of medical necessity generating more favorable outcomes, but if someone said "I'm going to cut someone else's left arm and leg off to fix their colon cancer." or even just "To make them thinner." I'd still say the NAP is pretty well in play.
Gosnell was acting out of aggression whether everyone involved consented, or could, or not.
" It also is quite debatable if it at all benefits the child. " <-- No, it is not. There are no factual grounds for argument against it. Only the emotional argument there's a not quite 1% chance of it not being correct, vs a lifetime of misery enforced by either parents or worse the state.
You said 3% above and below you say it's 0.002% chance. Since your so called proof is so inconsistent I think your pulling it out of your ass. Also, you refuse to list benchmarks to show success in your proposed treatment, and when shown the most accepted benchmarks don't show marked improvement, you dismiss these long recognized benchmarks as meaningless. You aren't even trying to debate or argue, you are making baseless assertions and demanding everyone conform to your ideals based upon your assertions. When actually confronted with documented evidence that contradicts you, you label it biased, bigoted or meaningless. This is a sure sign you are being dogmatic as opposed to actually following any science. You suffer from huge confirmation bias, also by your posts.
What do you think about sexual activity with young teens or pre-teens? If parents consent and their 12 year old wants to have sex with someone who is 30, should the state butt out? I'd say the state probably has a legitimate role there. Is this very different from that?
I'm not totally sure. Consent for teenagers is kind of a tricky area. But I'm pretty sure most agree that for pre-teens it's pretty clear.
Again it seems so rare of a situation, that it just becomes yet another gotcha moment. 12 and 30 is obviously an extreme, and I would guess there are so few parents out there that might even consent to that situation. You would probably agree though that a 17 and 18 year old having sex shouldn't be punishable by imprisonment even if one is an adult and the other is below the age of consent.
Erring on the side of parental rights seems to be the right approach in general.
But even though, there are a few, so we should err on the parents side in that case? And in some areas it is 1 in 5 kids, preteens, who identify as something other than their birth gender. So is 20% rare in your destination?
I generally agree about erring on the side of parental rights. But something really weird is going on here. This is something that needs vigorous and open discussion and that is simply not happening in any mainstream way. I suspect that something really damaging is being done to a lot of these children.
See the debate in the UK, which has been allowing this, even promoting it, for much longer than the US. To the point where the government has even overridden the wishes of the parents, and appointed guardians so kids can undergo the treatment, and many of these kids later regret the decisions they made, and are now incapable of undoing them. The rate of regret is fairly high, as high as 50% according to the regret community (who are often women who transitioned to men and now regret it) of course the NHS contends these numbers and says it is much less, but no one seems to be keeping good numbers on it. They also didn't see any decrease in suicides in these communities, drug use, sexual promiscuity and STDs, all the markers that transitioning are supposed to address.
" The rate of regret is fairly high, as high as 50% according to the regret community (who are often women who transitioned to men and now regret it) of course the NHS contends these numbers and says it is much less, but no one seems to be keeping good numbers on it. " <-- There are people with good numbers on it. Those numbers do not back you up.
" They also didn't see any decrease in suicides in these communities, drug use, sexual promiscuity and STDs, all the markers that transitioning are supposed to address. " <-- BS! Transition is supposed to address gender dysphoria, and that is all it is supposed to do. The lie it is supposed to do anything else was the criteria the fraud Paul McHugh used to claim transition didn't work -- and it was fraud like claiming an antibiotic doesn't fix a broken bone overnight, so it must be no good.
it was fraud like claiming an antibiotic doesn't fix a broken bone overnight, so it must be no good
Wow. Uh. It probably wouldn't be better for you to say that you really just want to mutilate childrens' genitals, but it would at least be honest and better for everyone else.
Either way, you're doing a bang up job of supporting Paxton's position. As I indicated at the start, I see a very valid case for parents giving their kids the drugs they see fit, with contextual exceptions. You're convincing me that the contextual exceptions are far more prevalent and dangerous.
I never lie here. No, because it is a lie, it would not be better. Not even a little.
" You're convincing me that the contextual exceptions are far more prevalent and dangerous. " <-- No moron, if you're really changing your mind, it's just your real colors coming through.
McHugh's work at Johns Hopkins was fraud. It was fraud just like I described. He claimed medical transition was a failure because it did not fix things it never could have fixed -- he never asked if it fixed what it could fix.
I never lie here.
Ah, so you lie all the time, just not to me or on these forums or on the internet. Got it.
Keep going. Maybe preface every post you make with "I never lie on the internet.", just so you can be sure that other people don't make my mistake and everyone understands just how honest you are.
There are not good numbers for this, the NHS doesn't even track it.
As to your second assertion, if these negative outcomes aren't improved it argued that the treatment for gender dysphoria isn't working. To pretend that no improvement in mental health benchmarks is indicative of anything other than the fact that you preferred treatment is of dubious benefits, if not outright a failure, is an argument for an unprovable hypothesis.
Here's one. I can find more. You will find no holes in this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4771131/
You are full of shit.
Oh boy a single study, from what the authors admit is a biased and nob representative group based upon parental measurements, not direct children measurements, that even the authors admit have many problems with the groups and that no causative factors can be attributed, you sure proved me wrong. Did you just Google until you found a study that you believe backs up your assertions and then didn't read it? And if you did read it, you apparently didn't understand the authors discussions. The admitted this was preliminary data, that it was unique as this is a new phenomena and not widely researched (contrary to all your assertions) that the group want representative, and was likely unique and self selective. This hardly proves anything. Especially as it's a preliminary study that the author states required much more in depth and lengthy studies.
These drugs were first approved in 1993, for early onset puberty, there use in gender dysphoria wasn't widely used until 2012 in the US, since that time, according the the FDA there have been 40,000 severe adverse reactions, with 6,370 deaths as a result of their use.
No, liar. Puberty blockers have been in use since the late 70's. Not 1993, you lying sack of shit. There have been no adverse reactions associated with them. None. There have been no deaths caused by them, not even one.
They actually "cause" nothing more than does plain saline.
Do you now how the FDA mandates something be listed as a side effect? It happens to someone who is taking the drug -- no causative mechanism has to be present at all. You put neosporin on an infected toenail and get a cavity and report it it can go on neosporin as a side effect -- you fucktard.
Yes I am aware of how they list side effects. And you seem to be the only one making the assertion that they cause no long term impact (that would be the first ever in recorded medical history, no drug has ever had that result). Every source I can find list possible long term side effects. The FDA says they were first approved in 1993.
https://www.seattlechildrens.org/pdf/PE2572.pdf
You can argue with the Mayo Clinic and Seattle's Children's two of the highest recognized medical institutions in the US. The St Louis Children's hospital also states the same thing about side effects and the fact that these drugs aren't labeled to treat gender dysphoria. Based upon your assertions running contrary to all the sources I have looked up, it seems one of us is mistaken and it isn't me. Also, even Wikipedia, hardly a bastion of right wing conspiracy admits that there isn't long term impacts of using them and that they aren't recommended before puberty, and that the research has shown very little mental benefits from these treatments. But keep calling me a liar, because you have only provided two citations, neither of which actually supports your assertions.
Your example of using an antibiotic for a fracture is just asinine. If treating gender dysphoria is supposed to reduce the adverse outcomes of gender dysphoria and the treatment doesn't actually reduce these adverse outcomes, you can't call the treatment a success. It would be like prescribing an antibiotic for a wound infection, that doesn't actually reduce the infection, and the patient still becomes septic. To use your antibiotic example. We treat infections so they don't spread, if they continue to spread out treatment isn't successful. We treat gender dysphoria arguably to reduce the poor outcomes such as suicide, alcohol and drug abuse etc. If the treatment doesn't actually reduce these, than it isn't successful. You can't eliminate the benchmarks and then declare it a success. That is pure 100% confirmation bias.
Dude, it's pure lying. Nobody claimed antibiotics healed bones overnight. People claim that transitioning cures gender dysphoria. Saying "It's like" between the two would be an honest mistake if he weren't otherwise basing his argument around the equivocation.
It is pure lying to claim medical/surgical transition ever was supposed to be able to do more than alleviate dysphoria. The people claiming transition has to fix everything are the ones equivocating.
How else would you measure success in treating gender dysphoria if you ignore the mental health outcomes? Wow. This statement takes the cake. You basically are stating that there is no way to falsify your beliefs, which is far closer to religious dogma than a scientific concept.
It is pure lying to claim medical/surgical transition ever was supposed to be able to do more than alleviate dysphoria.
You didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say they weren't wrong to make the claim. Just that they made it. More critically, that more people make the claim, wrongly, that people make the claim, wrongly, that antibiotics fix broken bones especially, wrongly, overnight.
" Your example of using an antibiotic for a fracture is just asinine. " <-- And Paul McHugh's fraud was exactly that assinine.
" If treating gender dysphoria is supposed to reduce the adverse outcomes of gender dysphoria and the treatment doesn't actually reduce these adverse outcomes, you can't call the treatment a success. " <-- It is supposed to alleviate the dysphoria. It does.
That's all there is. That's all there ever could be.
Pretending the only benchmark that is worthwhile is everything not perfect about the person is fixed is worse than dishonest it is stupid.
No, you are arguing that it treats something that can't be measured and all benchmarks that disagree with this improving their lives, don't matter, because you declare they don't matter. Someone is shoveling shit, but it isn't me.
But something really weird is going on here. This is something that needs vigorous and open discussion and that is simply not happening in any mainstream way.
Again, this is what the culture war has brought us. If you're for individual liberty when it comes to vaccines then you're a no-good science denying redneck. If you're for individual liberty when it comes to medical procedures then you're a no-good liberal commie.
What I do know is that the state's use of force in this situation is almost assuredly going to cause more harm than good.
And if the state allows this without any safeguards, than it is likely to cause as much harm.
No, becaus eit is already true the protocols employed effectively guard against such harm. A person has to lie to themselves and their therapist for a long time without putting a word wrong to be falsely treated for gender dysphoria -- or using informed consent as adults, which is not what we are talking about here anyway.
Actually, the level of therapist involvement has decreased significantly and in some cases, these are being prescribed without any therapist consult. You are extremely ill informed.
You are extremely ill informed. Informed consent is not available to children by protocol, it is off the table. Therapist involvement is not "decreased" significantly -- therapy has no role but ruling out confounding symptomology.
Bullshit. This is from the guy who dismisses the well established side effects of these drugs and states there are no long term risks despite every medical facility stating the exact opposite. At this point it is no longer worth responding to you because you haven't yet argued in good faith. You've made baseless assertions,
So, just for arguments sake, say this is entirely the result of culture war. Is it okay to ignore the possibility of harm, often irrevocable harm, simply because it's a cultural war issue? I mean there are advocates for normalizing pedophile and incest as well, should we simply ignore that as well? The I'm not going to take a side because it's a cultural issue is a great way to seem open-minded but it also absolves you of any and all responsibility. It also insures that society has not ability to take any stance against anything, as we can classify any behavior as a cultural issue. It may seem to appear to be libertarian, but in essence is probably closer to anarchy.
Nobody is saying adults shouldn't be able to do what they want with their body, at least not here. That's jeff levels of disingenuousness.
Thanks to leftists like Leo, teachers, "therapists", and other leftist activists, preying on children isn't rare at all.
No rights are being violated here when parents and children consent to these surgeries. You could make the argument from a moral or even logical standpoint that it's a bad idea to transition a minor, but what business is that of the state?
Because this shit is tied in with stuff like Masterpiece Cakeshop, the deliberate pathologizing of deviant behaviors, and enabling of munchie-by-proxy mothers to troon out their kids as a status symbol.
You can say all day long, "well, it's no business of the state's" but the reality is that the state has been sticking their nose in these issues for a while now, and arguing, "well, they shouldn't" is just mental masturbation. That's why you have cases like the Dad who didn't support his kid being turned in to a tranny by his munchie ex-wife, being told by the judge, "sorry, you don't get a say here," or teachers and counselors encouraging their students, against the wishes of their parents, to be "non-normative" during a period when mental illness rates and various cluster B personality disorders are going through the roof in Zoomers in particular.
If agents of the state are already making it their business in one direction, then it's inevitable that agents of the state who DON'T support this will go in the opposite direction. As Overt has pointed out, if you want to stop the latter, you need to prevent the former from happening. After that, it's too late.
Fuck off and die, groomer.
Fuck off and die, slaver.
Since you think you own these children.
OKAY Leo now what if the parent and child consent to sex? Just because there is consent does not always make it right.
By definition a child cannot consent to have sex.
But they can consent to a life altering treatment? Not sure that is a consistent stance.
Why are you pretending the alternative is also not life altering?
I'm not the one being inconsistent here.
Keep your hands of the children.
But they can consent to a sex change operation / therapy / hormone / drug?
To go by the results, yes, they can.
Then in what universe can they consent to changing their appearance through medical treatments? (No matter what they do, they aren't changing their sex.)
In this universe where the data says there is a biological need for them to do it, and a great benefit when they can.
You're wrong from the start. Children are not capable of consent.
But there parent's are.
Are there any limits to what a parent can consent to on behalf of their child, in your mind?
The problem here (and a general problem with most libertarian-ish philosophies) is it fails at dealing with children, who aren't competent at exercising their rights.
To say the parents should exercise all their rights for them is to claim child abuse cannot exist. So that's a non-starter.
At which point, some sort of state-like entity needs to look out for the best interest of children when parents fail. What is the best interest of a child? There are obvious examples, but the margins are going to be fraught and contentious calls.
I think the Texas construction might be too strict. I feel like adolescents deserve increased autonomy and thus the ability to exercise some of their rights. Does it involve rights to consent to hormone treatment? idk.
Pre-pubescents are an entirely different ballgame. It would seem reasonable to limit parents medical decision-making more at that point. (Note I would also be okay with the state choosing to require parents to seek medical treatment in the case of serious disease or injury, even if their religion forbids it. Their pre-pubescent children aren't competent to adopt those religious beliefs yet, and society could reasonably find denying such care to be abusive). There should be limits to what a society could reasonably require, but both of these (no hormone blockers, requiring medical care in serious circumstances) seem to be within acceptable limits of intrusion to protect the best (future) interests of the child.
Scott, like it or not, there's a lot of decisions we don't allow minors to make. We don't let them drive vehicles on public roads. We don't let them use mind-altering substances or purchase cigarettes.
If you're going to make an argument that hormone blockers should be an exception to this, you need to start working from first principles and acknowledge why this is different. You can't simply say, "Well the kid asked for it so we let them have it." Parents get arrested for supplying their kids with beer and wine as well, and such substances are extra harmful during formative development. We can quibble about the drinking age but I don't think it should be lowered to 12 (I wouldn't argue with making it 17 from a physiology standpoint).
You need to take a position that is going to be consistent and principled. If you think we should legalize drugs, sex, and prostitution for all children of all ages, then you don't have any inconsistences with simply saying this should be legal. But if you think there are certain decisions children shouldn't be allowed to make, you need to articulate a clear position why this issue serves as an exception. You're not going to convince people by simply berating them for this.
I don't think should be against the law, necessarily. I do think there's a lot of problems with information about trans-regret being quashed, and how it's apparently not appropriate to talk about the long-term health ramifications of hormone blockers administered to children. I've got nothing against informed decisions, but my idea is that children don't have the capacity to consent to certain things because they're not considering the long-term impacts. It's why we all hate pedophiles, for instance.
Look at this weirdo that thinks this is reason circa 2002
If you have principles that you understand and are consistent, it shouldn't be difficult to start from there to write an explanation. The writing gets really easy when you have a foundational understanding of your own position. You can simply extrapolate from a principled position. It's not that hard to follow your own logic once you've articulated your premise.
It's also extremely beneficial-once you've followed the logic trail to your own position, it's much easier to understand your opposition because they ALSO are follow some manner of logic, even if it's just a rationalization of their pre-existing bias.
I would add that there are additional reasons and ramifications regarding 16, 18, and 21 that need to be addressed.
Specific to the 'could prosecute' and 'mandatory reporters', Scott's stance of 'nope' would/could/does imply that he's OK with adults treating minors for gender dysphoria without their parents' consent. Scott may not be, and likely is not saying that's OK but the law makes it clear that this would be an actionable offense and Scott is, in fact, opposing it.
A rather obvious monkey-wrench that should/would grind all gears to a halt if not induce catastrophic failure Scott's (or both) side(s); a 16-yr.-old biological female who just started transitioning gets pregnant. Does "he" have a right to abort? Without the parents' consent? Is the father (of the unborn child) responsible for child support? Is a/the doctor obligated to do anything one way or the other? Most importantly in the modern era, one also shouldn't forget impending litigation against the baby shower's cake decorator.
You're forcing a bit of a paradox on people. The most successful (and thus personally fulfilling) transition would be initiated before puberty is over, being that the whole affair deals with secondary sex traits and such.
So you want to use STATE POWER to force people into a certain conservative cultural regime, STATE POWER to force them to do things to their bodies they don't want to do, and nobody is confused as to why: you have a limited perspective on reality and can't handle difference.
Let people be free. Even youths. You're supposed to be the freedom people.
The most successful (and thus personally fulfilling) transition would be initiated before puberty is over
The most successful and personally fulfilling transition would be a bullet to the head. Prove me wrong.
100% of people fatally shot in the head express no further confusion or dissent about their gender. When asked if there was anything that would give them greater personal fulfillment, 100% of the time there was no response.
Gender transitioning's numbers are nowhere near as successful. So, every time a children claims to be transgender and their parents consent, treat them with a bullet to the head and call it done. If the parents have a problem with the treatment, they really should've looked at the research more carefully. The data's about as conclusive as it gets.
But that brings me to this question: How many cases of gender confusion and gender dysphoria end up being naturally sorted out by puberty itself? It's a non-zero number of kids who, when their hormones start kicking in, end up figuring things out because their bodies naturally gain a balance. By not allowing their bodies to naturally develop, it's entirely possible that the effects of gender identity confusion are being exacerbated by hormone blockers instead of helped.
So we come back to this question: how equipped are children to make this sort of medical question? If the facts were just the facts without being politicized, I'd trust doctors to sort it out by consulting with children and their parents, but doctors have shown over the past decade how easily they will sacrifice their ethics and objectivity for the sake of political causes.
I think it's relevant to this discussion that the vast majority of transgender kids change their minds and do not identify as trans when they are grown up!
Quote: "Despite the differences in country, culture, decade, and follow-up length and method, all the studies have come to a remarkably similar conclusion: Only very few trans- kids still want to transition by the time they are adults. Instead, they generally turn out to be regular gay or lesbian folks. The exact number varies by study, but roughly 60–90% of trans- kids turn out no longer to be trans by adulthood."
http://www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html
No only is that nonsense, I'll bet before I even look it up that the fraud Zucker is behind it. It has his smell.
He originated the fraudulent idea -- he made it up -- that all children who are in any way gender non-conforming were "pretransgender" and any who did not transition were "cured". He ran a "this is not conversion therapy" wink-wink/nudge-nudge therapy center where he counted children who never showed any signs of gender dysphoria as pre-transgender and those who quit talking to him as "desisting".
No, the fact is fewer than 3% of transgender people who transition medically/surgically "desist", and less than 1/3rd of those do so because they feel they were wrongly diagnosed in the first place.
And I am sure your source is completely void of bias confirmation. Fuck, your entire position fully relies on your assertion that there is no question of the benefits and anyone who says or shows different is ideologically driven and should therefore be quiet. Unfortunately, for you, your evidence isn't nearly as solid as you believe.
This article must have been posted on facebook or reddit.
This poster has some pretty fucking questionable conclusions. Would not surprise me if you are correct in your assertion.
It sounds like something from a pro pedophile activist page
Reddit for sure. The troon jannies who run the place there are well-known.
They don't appear to understand basic such as the definition of off label use, how long these practices have been used (made the assertion that it's been three decades, which is false), dismisses benchmarks used to measure detrimental mental health, and the lack of improvement in these benchmarks, as being irrelevant in deciding if the treatment protocol is beneficial, dismisses any evidence out of hand that they disagree with, a sure sign of confirmation bias, doesn't understand the correct usage of the phrase birth defects. Makes unwarranted and unsupported interpretations of what posters have stated. Basically the entire hodgepodge of signs that their argument is entirely based upon a preferred narrative as opposed to actual critical thinking. Also, their dismissal of all psychological science until recent times as biased and wrong, but now we know the truth, this is also a classical symptom of placing preference over critical thinking. It isn't that the science actually demonstrated that these previous positions were wrong, it is fairly clear that the definitions were changed purely for cultural reasons.
Their arguments, if you can call them that, are obviously very emotionally driven. Which dovetails nicely with that article last week about how the culture has gotten more emotional vs. rational in it's thinking and expression.
My sources are free of known fraud.
" Unfortunately, for you, your evidence isn't nearly as solid as you believe. " <-- Not that you can find any shred of evidence against it.
Here you say 3% but below you say it's 1 out of 45000. Both of these assertions can't be correct. Even 1/3 of 3% is magnitudes larger than 1 in 45000 (the first is 1% but the second is 0.002%). Given this conflict in your own cited data, I question how well versed you really are in this subject.
Try to learn math if you're able. 1 in 150 is born transgender. About 1 in 3 choose to transition medically/surgically. Of those only less than 1 in 100 state they were diagnosed and transitioned in error -- that's 1 in 45000, you moron.
Then how about try reading it. He cites a dozen different studies, by different organizations and authors.
And this isn't about transgender people in general desisting, so those numbers, even if accurate, are irrelevant. This is specifically about children.
And I know Zucker's methods, and that that is where the fake high "desistance" rates come from.
Maybe you should actually click the link. "Zucker" doesn't show up at all. There's ~a dozen studies cited which all studied the question, mostly by different people. Without drilling down into each paper, that seems like a rather solid basis for a conclusion.
This is hilarious. I guess parents should be allowed to do what they think is best for their children only without state interference, but only when it aligns with your ideology.
I honestly don't know why are you people even pretend to believe in anything but the right of corporations to do whatever they want.
I think if you reread the comments, very few are actually arguing that. Most are arguing children aren't equipped to make these decisions, and given the long term impacts of these decisions, parents really aren't the best informed to make these decisions either. Most believe that the government isn't well equipped to make these decisions either, but recognize that the government does have some role to protect kids from decisions by the parents that will do irrevocable damage to them or runs a high risk of such damage.
What a convenient place to draw the line on self-ownership and on requirements that parents be "informed" before they are permitted to do what they want with their children. Tell me bro, do parents need to be "informed" before they can homeschool their kids? Or should the state set up a certification board?
States require homeschool students to pass the same requirements public school students do. If they don't, it's back to public school they go (even though those schools routinely fail the requirements) So yes, there's already a certification board for homeschoolers
Most states do require some form of certification for homeschooling, so this is a fairly dubious argument.
Also, name me a single other medical procedure that you can have performed without being well informed? You can't because it is against the law.
You realize that when you sign for your prescriptions what you are signing for is that you received the information, including any adverse reactions you may experience when the medication is dispensed? When you go for surgery you must sign that you have been informed of any possible outcomes of your surgery, including even rare ones? Even local anesthesia you are informed that there is a possibility of permanent damage or even death. You literally can't receive any medical treatment for yourself, let alone your kids without acknowledging that you have received any pertinent information. Most people don't bother to read the information, but it is provided. If a doctor prescribed a medication off label, they must inform you that it is off label and the fact that the FDA hasn't approved this medication for the use it's being prescribed for and that no statement of efficacy can be made as a result. This is literally the law of the land.
" Most are arguing children aren't equipped to make these decisions " <-- Borderline none are recognizing the decision has to be made and to delay is an unnecessary and grotesque hardship -- and they are arguing the state owns the children if the children do not own themselves.
" or runs a high risk of such damage. " <-- They are not pretending to justify there is such a risk. They are repeating the known frauds of past generations of psychiatrists who likewise thought being gay was a crime and that "refrigerator moms" caused autism.
Why is delaying it wrong? Oh yeah, it's all a conspiracy in the past but now we know the truth. Fuck have you looked up the side effects of puberty blockers?
There are no actual negative sidle effects to blockers. None. Their "side effect" profile is the same as plain saline.
These drugs were first approved in 1993, for early onset puberty, there use in gender dysphoria wasn't widely used until 2012 in the US, since that time, according the the FDA there have been 40,000 severe adverse reactions, with 6,370 deaths as a result of their use.
Liar. They have resulted in no deaths and no adverse reactions. They have the same sort of side effects that plain saline does. They were in use in the late 70's and the most common ones approved in the early 80's.
I have no idea where you got 1993, but I do know you are FoS.
As for your other examples, the refrigerator mom was only really used as a possible hypothesis when autism was first recognized as a diagnosis and was not widely held, nor did it persist for any great length of time. The diagnosis of homosexuality as a mental disorder had almost nothing to do with it's legality, which was far more based upon Judeo-Christian traditions and usually predate the existence of psychology as a science by centuries, if not millennia. Gender dysphoria as a mental illness was included in all but the latest DSM. The decision to remove it as a mental illness was not widely accepted and was extremely controversial. There is even some remaining disagreement on the removal of homosexuality from the DSM. There remains no solid genetic or physiological explanation for these two conditions. There is even less evidence of any evolutionary pressure to produce these conditions, and from an evolutionary basis, the make little sense, as both would decrease the ability to reproduce. There have been some suggestions that they may improve child survival, but this is controversial and remains simply a hypothesis.
Now when you point this out, some take it to mean that these behaviors should be prohibited or that you are arguing to prohibit these behaviors. However, that isn't what I am arguing, if you are an adult, I say more power to you, do what makes you happy. As for children, messing with normal development (puberty impacts almost all development including brain development) is simply not supported by a not well understood mental health issue. If there weren't the possibility of long term impacts from messing with normal development I would not have any argument against it, but this is demonstrably not the case, as even the doctors who prescribe these treatments acknowledge. We simply lack the data to make the assertion that the benefits of these treatments outweigh the risks and pretending otherwise is uninformed and dogmatic not science.
" the refrigerator mom was only really used as a possible hypothesis when autism was first recognized as a diagnosis and was not widely held, nor did it persist for any great length of time " <-- The concept dominated the field of autism for decades.
" Gender dysphoria as a mental illness was included in all but the latest DSM. " <-- So what? It is not now because there never was evidence for it -- only the same kind if bias you have.
" There remains no solid genetic or physiological explanation for these two conditions. " <-- BS! You look at the sexually dimorphic brain structures of a binary presenting transgender person and those structures will resemble those of the gender associated with the other sex 100% of the time. There are about 30 genes associated with being gay, the more of them you have the more likely you are to be gay. Every human female with a diagnosable case of PCOS is bi or lesbian.
Willful blindness is required to ignore the overwhelming evidence that being other than cis and straight is as biological as being cis or straight is. That wilfulness is almost always ideologically motivated.
and given the long term impacts of these decisions, parents really aren't the best informed to make these decisions either.
What about the parents that were against the transition but a pack of angry trans-activists pushed the agenda with their underage child, and completely fucked the family over? What about their authority?
Dear Mr. Shackford,
Please remove your head from your ass before writing any more.
Thank you,
UCS
Another case of an author lying about what someone wrote on the assumption that readers will just take his word for it instead of reading the original source.
Says the liar claiming the author got anything wrong.
You keep calling people liars who disagree with you, but you haven't really yet provided evidence that they are lying, other than an assertion. You have also dismissed evidence they provide that is contrary to your bias. As a result the conclusion can only be you suffer from confirmation bias, at least as bad as those who disagree with you. Considering many you have called liars, including myself, have simply stated the science is pretty unsettled, your assertion to the contrary appears to be far worse confirmation bias than those you are disputing.
Yes I have presented evidence, and I note you have not whatsoever for you opinions and that you have doubled down on howlingly stupid lies.
"However, no one believes that any child—or adult—should be exposed to these treatments against their own wishes."
Right, but that's not what is occurring here, or what's being argued. You, apparently, are trying to carve out the ability for a very-minor minor to provide consent for life-alerting, almost-always unnecessary treatment. Minors, by definition, cannot provide consent generally and thus everything is against their non-existent "wishes."
The robust effort to proliferate this activity among young and usually at-risk (for a variety of reasons) children, in the face of hugely disproportionate suicide and self-harm rates among adults who engage in the same behavior, is evil and Mr. Shackford is lost in the weeds.
" You, apparently, are trying to carve out the ability for a very-minor minor to provide consent for life-alerting, almost-always unnecessary treatment. " <-- You are pretending very minor minors are involved in anything medical, much less surgical, you are pretending doing nothing is not life altering, you are pretending the treatments when warranted by protocol are not necessary.
Since to go by that and the rest of what you wrote you know nothing real about the matter, why should anyone do anything but laugh at you?
Just as we laugh at all of your baseless, and often illogical assertions.?
I'm laughing at you.
One thing I did not see in the comments, though I might have missed them, was somebody questioning why -- when a non-surgical medical treatment, deemed advisable for a minor, with the support of the medical community (including, in the vast majority of instances, both medical and psychological experts), as well as the parents and the minor in question -- should be any business of the government at all.
They are so advisable that they haven't sought FDA approval for this use. They are so advisable that little research has been done on their long term impacts, but what little has been done shows high risks for lifelong and even life threatening problems. Increased risk of infertility, failure to achieve healthy heights and muscle mass in males, increased risk for breast cancer in males, increased risk for reproductive cancers in both sexes. These drugs were created for a very specific medical problem, and were originally designed to be used in a very finite period of time, under extremely close medical monitoring. We are using them off label, with little research on the long term impacts, and very little evidence that there is any real world benefits from their use. Also, the statement that the majority of doctors, psychologists etc supports this use is dubious, and even if correct, given the lack of research demonstrating benefits, they aren't making that endorsement based upon science. This wouldn't be the first time that the vast majority of medical professionals have made a mistake. Despite all the evidence showing that low salt diets, low cholesterol diets have little to no impact on cardiovascular health, and that they may even be detrimental, the medical profession still endorses them, three to four decades after this evidence began to pile up. This is just one example were the medical profession has been completely wrong.
Try to stop lying.
I know you won't have much any argument if you don't lie, but try to stop anyway.
This is not an off label use -- the on label use is pausing puberty. That is the same reason they are given in gender dysphoria and in that case for far less time, and the same mechanism of action is occurring. These drugs were out of the experimental phase over 40 years ago. When used to puberty which is precocious, they have been in one person for over 10 years. When used for puberty unwanted for reasons of gender dysphoria, they are usually in use for only 1 year, and rarely more than 3. No negative side effects have been noted ever to occur at elevated rates when these drugs are in use -- it's all baseline.
Not one thing you 've said in the comment I am replying to is true and relevant.
Not even one.
No it's on label use is delaying puberty in early onset puberty. That is the fucking label. The delaying of puberty for any other reason is off label use. Also, stopping puberty for gender dysphoria is not a shorter period of time. As long as the gonads remain, you have to continue to take the medications, because as soon as you stop them, puberty begins. In the case of early onset puberty, most common in girls, it is rare to prescribe them after the age of 10, as 11 is considered the average age of onset for puberty in girls. If a girl goes on puberty blockers at age nine, she would have to continue them until she has her gonads (ovaries are the female gonads, in case you don't understand) are removed if that is delayed until she is 18, that is nine years. A girl who begins to display early onset puberty at age six (it is extremely rare younger than this) she will be usually removed from them once she reaches the age of ten or eleven, ergo four to five years. Thus, you are completely wrong on everything you asserted. You were wrong about the label, and wrong about the duration of treatment.
You don't even understand the issue it appears and as such, you can't declare anything I said untrue.
It's on label use is delaying puberty. That's what it is being used for in this case.
" Also, stopping puberty for gender dysphoria is not a shorter period of time." <-- Yes it is, for as little as a year, and rarely more than 3.
" You don't even understand the issue it appears and as such, you can't declare anything I said untrue." <-- I understand you know nothign real about it. Puberty blockers have been used for precocious puberty in 1 years olds, dummy.
You don't even fucking appear to understand what off label means.
You don't understand the label.
You haven't proven anything I've stated is untrue, yet you keep fucking stating it as such. That is a disingenuous argument. It is off label because gender dysphoria isn't on the fucking label, it's label specifically states delay of puberty for precocious puberty. That is the fucking label, any use other than in precocious puberty is fucking off label. You don't even fucking understand what you are arguing.
My niece was on puberty blockers for many years (6 years old to 16 years old). This was due to her having a brain tumor and the doctors delayed puberty to help fight the tumor. I am not a doctor but her father is and it all worked out for the best as she is doing well in college.
It's on the label for them to delay puberty, and that's what is being used for. That's all there is. The usual 'relins had been approved in the early 80's and in experimental use for almost ten years before that.
" You don't even fucking understand what you are arguing. " <-- Considering the lie you told about them only being approved in 1993, you have no idea what is real at all.
For the same reason we have a separate justice system for minors: it's universally understood and agreed upon that minors lack the capacity to fully understand the consequences of their actions, so they can't be held legally liable in the same way adults can.
The state has an interest in protecting the rights of minors. The default is usually to entrust that duty to parents, but sometimes the state needs to protect children from their parents, too.
Given the evidence the evidence that AT LEAST 60% of children who transition prior to adulthood go on to de-transition later, and that these treatment have long term, irreversible, negative side effects, including sterility, the state does have an interest in protecting children's rights here, especially since they are incapable of understanding those rights AND that the people entrusted to safeguard those rights- the parents- are failing to do so.
We wouldn't allow a parent to consent to an elective hysterectomy for a 10 year old girl because she said she wants one, so why is it okay to allow them to consent to these kinds of sterilizing treatments?
" Given the evidence the evidence that AT LEAST 60% of children who transition prior to adulthood go on to de-transition later, " <-- There is no such evidence.
" and that these treatment have long term, irreversible, negative side effects, including sterility, the state does have an interest in protecting children's rights here, especially since they are incapable of understanding those rights AND that the people entrusted to safeguard those rights- the parents- are failing to do so. " <-- There is no negative side effect whatsoever to pubertyblockers. None.
The side effect of forcing a transgender child to undergo an unwanted puberty is that suicide rate you are complaining of -- which you are seeking to inflict.
Nothing producing sterility is in the treatment protocols anyway for youth . . . or are you so ignorant of what you are writing about you don't know that?
And since there is no evidence that suicide rates decline, your treatment seems to be useless. But, making them infertile, increasing their risk for cancers, increasing their risk for skeletomuscular underdevelopment is totes worth it for no evidence of benefit.
As for your assertion that there is no evidence, no you rejected the evidence because you disagreed with the findings, you stated as much above. It's all confirmation bias on your part.
I can't decide if this is just another chemjeff sock, or a new psycho joining the group of current psychos.
Either way, he/she isn't worth arguing with.
Bravely run away.
After all, you can't win a fight about facts and logic when you are unarmed.
Moron, I have present exactly such evidence. You continue to lie and claim otherwise, and for the sake of you trying to get kids to kill themselves. GFY.
"though I might have missed them"
Try reading the comments. Numerous independent reasons have been given multiple times.
Some highlights:
- Medicare/medicaid/ACA dollars will be spent in support of these efforts
- The procedure surgically may be limited to one person or family, but the legal procedure confers a disequal (legally superior in the current political climate) status to the individual with far-reaching implications.
- Confounded from the above, the superior legal status is generated at the behest or on the foundation of people generally acknowledged not to be capable of making such decisions.
In the context of those, the question is less "Why don't we let parents determine their childrens' medical treatment." and more "Why don't we let parents whimsically decide their children's socio-political class." The answer to the latter being "Because I/we can start putting bullets in anyone who disagrees only has any right to protest in direct proportion to the number of bullets they own/can fire." I don't like the latter solution and, in my outlining of the points above have detailed how to avoid it but, whether they state it or not, that's final solution and one side shows a significant interest in not just avoiding my solutions, but actively forbidding them.
While I agree with this proposed Texas law, I would point out the inconsistency in Texas law with respect to juvenile 'waivers' (i.e. when a minor can be charged as an adult for a crime). In Texas, all 17 year old minors are to be presumed and tried as adults for criminal activity. I believe that informed consent laws for medical procedures should be consistent with this age - it's only fair.
"Texas Republican Attorney General Ken Paxton has declared all medical treatment of transgender minors to be child abuse..."
Uh, no it doesn't. ALL medical treatment? I don't know who Scott Shackford is, but he needs to be a smidge more precise with his choice of words. The memo specifically (and clearly) focuses on treatments related to gender reassignment — not "all" medical treatments.
Anyway... is this just political theater? I can't imagine gender reassignment procedures for minors is especially rampant in Texas. I mean... it's Texas.
Classic subject matter.
On one hand, if they aren't old enough to get a tattoo, they aren't old enough to elect any surgery.
On the other hand, if they are old enough to kill a baby (with adult help), they are old enough to elect other surgeries.
Now let the the "but that's different" rivers flow.
Even giving puberty blockers can cause irreparable harm to someone. Surgery is still worse, but subjecting a child to anything that can change the balance of hormones in the body can have disastrous effects, including but not limited to, depression and suicidal ideation. Until there is concrete evidence as to the cause, using any and all medical interventions on minor children is abuse. If it requires something be done, so be it. As a parent there is nothing more infuriating as sick minds who want to turn children into posters for their f*cking ideology. It's rarely, if ever a genuine sentiment. I don't even know why I'm bothering. I've seen the comments, it won't change the authors mind, and I'm starting to realize that I again, as always, do not fit the mold. I am diverging more with some of the Libertarian ideals as people drill down into the endless rabbit hole of what ifs to try and find out what is and isn't a workable idea within a given rule. I've heard more insane interpretations of the NAP in the last two years, than I have in the last 10.
Actually, reading the comments, you appear to be in the majority. The few who defend Scott's take and position seem to be working from a misconceived notion of individual rights, regardless of age, maturity, capabilities, and or parental rights. Most seem to be in agreement, given the nature of the procedures, including medical, that this is not a decision that should be left to the kids, and even question the validity of the idea that it is within the parental rights scope.
And they are in agreement with you because they have no idea or care what is real...
...So you and they are claiming government owns the children.
Not even fucking close. And it's arguable that what you prefer is any more based in reality. In fact, the evidence is actually less supportive of your reality.
But you have no evidence.
" Even giving puberty blockers can cause irreparable harm to someone. " <-- No, it can not. No evidence of that has appeared in over 40 years.
" but subjecting a child to anything that can change the balance of hormones in the body can have disastrous effects, including but not limited to, depression and suicidal ideation. " <-- That is what having the wrong puberty does to transgender people, especially when assholes are gaslighting them and claiming it is for their own good (in this case at gunpoint).
" It's rarely, if ever a genuine sentiment. " <-- About 1 in 45000 successfully fake gender dysphoria with consequent medical/surgical transition. What you are complaining of is the rare thing.
" I don't even . . . the last 10. " <-- Well, you don't care what is real. You only like what affirms your bigotry. If that were not the case, you would not be repeating such obvious, stupid lies.
Bullshit. Look up the risk for infertility, cancer, skeletomuscular underdevelopment. All of these are we documented that is why they are discontinued around the age of normal puberty when being used to treat early onset puberty. Puberty is extremely important for normal development. This isn't even controversial. It's as close to settled science as you can get in biology.
Jaron Bloshinsky, aka "Jazz Jennings," is a textbook case of what happens to a kid who's groomed from early childhood to deny his actual biology while indulging his fantasies as reality.
Growth stunted, has a lifetime ax wound because the hormone blockers prevented his dick from growing big enough that it could be converted into a pseudo-vag, can't feel arousal (the hormone blockers stunted the part of his brain that develops this in puberty) so he indulges in food because it's the only thing that gives him actual physical pleasure, and is on 40 different kind of medications at this point following botched surgery after botched surgery.
And all to facilitate the Tumblr crowd's cluster B personality disorders.
Yes, but cases like this the poster would deny exist or explain off as acceptable casualties. The fact that treating gender dysphoria in children by encouraging puberty blocking and or gender reassignment is a new phenomena and we can't yet know the outcomes. Until recently, most countries forbid these kinds of treatment to people under the age of 18. We simply lack the data to make any informed conclusion as to the benefits of these treatments, however, we do have evidence that in at least some cases they harm.
" . Look up the risk for infertility, cancer, skeletomuscular underdevelopment. " <-- All of which are zero. They do not occur in children treated with puberty blockers at higher rates. That's all there is.
" Puberty is extremely important for normal development. " <-- Yes, and it very important the puberty a person has corresponds to their biological gender.
Even the Mayo clinic recognizes the potential for long term impacts from puberty blockers, while also prescribing them as a treatment option. The use in gender dysphoria is considered off label, because that is not what they were approved for, and no long term impact studies have been conducted. As for other harm:
These drugs were first approved in 1993, for early onset puberty, there use in gender dysphoria wasn't widely used until 2012 in the US, since that time, according the the FDA there have been 40,000 severe adverse reactions, with 6,370 deaths as a result of their use.
" These drugs were first approved in 1993, " <-- No moron, a decade earlier. They have been in use for over 40 years with none of your bullshit scare tactics "side effects" seen in reality.
" according the the FDA there have been 40,000 severe adverse reactions, with 6,370 deaths as a result of their use. " <-- No, moron. No adverse reactions and no deaths as a result of their use. None.
You literally have no idea what you are reading.
This is, to put it mildly, an item that should be quite far down on the list of priorities for the Right. This isn't a crisis that needs fixing, nor anything other than the typical Kulture Warz bullshit that the right and left both engage in to keep their bases at their throats. As I note below, I think this TG nonsense is out of control. However it is not a problem that I see being improved upon by these draconian interventions. Indeed, all this will do is drive this matter into the courts where there is a chance that TG Activists will get some bizarre Roe v Wade compromise that further muddles and entrenches this issue.
Above, Soldiermedic (among others) has given some compelling facts as to why gender reassignment and similar interventions are not a great idea. Merely a few years ago, I was reading the same literature. The problem here is the same problem with any fact-based policy and "the science is evolving". Whereas a mere decade ago, it was a FACT that gender dysphoria could be transitory in many or most cases, today it is a FACT! that gender dysphoria can only be treated with gender reassignment. In short, if you are relying on medical science to carry water here, prepare to be fighting this battle in 20 years when the TG activists have appropriately dealt with inconvenient facts.
No. The question is, and always must be, moral. Who gets to make the decision for the child? We know that as a minor, the child is unable to make these decisions for themselves, so someone has to hold these rights in trust. I maintain that the parent must be that person. They should be given the wide latitude as a fiduciary for the child. Anything less is crossing into territory that, while well intentioned, will only resort in misery.
I think it is sick that a parent would subject their child to gender reassignment surgery. Likewise, many consider it sick that a parent declines to vaccinate their kids, or circumcises them, or forces them to wear a burka. I question whether gender reassignment crosses a line into breaching a parent's responsibility as fiduciary for their child. I do honestly believe that a child who regretted these permanent changes- or who suffered cancer, infertility or other long term affects from procedures- should have cause to sue the parents for breach of duty. And By the way, the kid should get to sue the Doctor too. That, in my mind, is the way to ensure doctors don't play this game going forward.
Getting back into pragmatism, even if Gender Reassignment *is* a breach of duty, I am skeptical of the State making general policy decisions for what is or is not a breach- instead of leaving these things to case-by-case litigation. What always starts out as a good idea (Kids shouldn't take drugs, we should stop child abuse!) turns into all sorts of infringements on the family. There is nothing worse for a family than a visit from a CPS agent- whether they are doing anything wrong or not. In limited cases, CPS will intervene to prevent a dangerous situation (often putting kids into equally bad or worse foster care situations) and in many cases, they end up breaking up families based on arbitrary and inconsistent standards.
So, while I agree with Soldier that parents should not be pushing gender reassignment on their kids, I think there is likely to be far more harm done by a State that demands the right to prohibit or allow these things, and their methods of invading privacy and infringing freedoms to enforce these dictates. "For the Children!" has been a rallying cry for forced education, forced vaccination, the drug war, alcohol prohibitions and more for hundreds of years. And while these interventions often saved some children (the 21 year drinking age certainly reduced drunk driving deaths) they also did much to entrench the leviathan.
So I'll say it plain- I would rather allow a bunch of parents to turn their little Tanners into Tanyas and live with the consequences, than for the state to start weaponizing child abuse laws to intervene. Given my experience with the narcissistic bitches agitating to castrate their kids, this will not be the only damage they do to these kids. And in a few years when the damage they caused is revisited upon them and their doctors in the form of law suits, that problem can correct for itself.
I like Abbot. But he should stay focused on stuff that is actually going to meaningfully impact his constituents. And this is a tiny, tiny issue that could be handled far more easily. In fact, if he merely agitated for a law that allows minors to sue the doctor and parent later on in life, this would be a far more preferable alternative.
I am not 100% behind this interpretation of the law (Texas AG's directive). I also do not agree with the idea that it violates parental rights to say you can't make a medical decision that requires the removal of healthy sexual organs. Puberty blockers may not reach that level, but it's certainly true they were not designed to be used in this manner, and the long term impacts are not well understood, nor are they being properly researched due to pressure from certain activists.
I disagree with the blanket assertion that this is solely a individual rights issue. I'm not a huge fan of the state interfering with parental rights, but question if at some point it isn't sometimes valid. I also question at what point do we agree that the state has and should excercise the right to protect a child's interest from their parents, and if simply declaring something a cultural issue enough to make it off limits. I believe it is far more complicated a question and a discussion we should be having.
I would be more persuaded if we saw solid evidence that any of this actually helped the child. I do also agree that Texas and Florida really are stirring up a pot, solely for the purpose of perceived political gain. At the same time, I also see that a minority of activist are also trying to dictate in the other direction, including even arguing parents shouldn't be allowed to say no if their kids desire it. I see no good faith discussions from either Texas, Florida or the TG rights activist. I also reject out of hand that the libertarian principle is that parents have the universal right to make decisions like this for their children.
I also see that in the last decade, in the name of compassion and acceptance, we have totally abandoned all research into this except for the accepted narrative being pushed by a minority, which complicates the issue even more. And I also reject the idea that just because the medical and psychological community appears to be on board with this latest cause, makes it the correct decision from a scientific view.
Given the growing push to include this in all stages of children's development, and the fact that we are seeing a huge increase in identification as a gender other than your biological one, I also question how much it is true and how much is a societal fad that we will later look back on in horror.
I am not arguing Texas took the correct steps here, but I am asking at what point do we, as a society, question the validity of the other camps arguments, and at what point is it permissive to step in and say that the parents actions do violate the NAP. Given the complexity of bringing civil suits, as we are now seeing in the UK, which has come down with the full force of the government on the pro-transition side of the argument, I also question if currently the civil routes are equipped to deal with this issue in the States.
" At the same time, I also see that a minority of activist are also trying to dictate in the other direction, including even arguing parents shouldn't be allowed to say no if their kids desire it. " <-- How about the kids as adulkts get to sue their parents for every penny they have including pensions and Socialist Insecurity payments, if parents prevent a transgender child from transitioning? How would you like them apples?
" I also see that in the last decade, in the name of compassion and acceptance, we have totally abandoned all research into this except for the accepted narrative being pushed by a minority, which complicates the issue even more. " <-- What research do you think has not been done? This has been studied and theorized to death for over 70 years. All the data lines up against your point of view, you can solely cite fraud -- and no few lies I've seen you write here -- to back up your claimed opinions.
" And I also reject the idea that just because the medical and psychological community appears to be on board with this latest cause, makes it the correct decision from a scientific view. " <-- Well you reject facts in general and substitute your prefered fantasies, why not also reject experienced opinions? And hey you do have the 0.05% of American doctors in the ACP behind you, you have them going for you.
If on the basis of nothing factual you propose to interpose the ostensibly "legitimate" violence of the state between children's best interests and their parents and medical caregivers, you are violating the NAP.
In a very big way.
You haven't proven anything I stated is wrong, you've just asserted it is. That isn't an argument in good faith, that is entirely a faith based not science based argument. You made the assertion I am incorrect, therefore the responsibility to show I am incorrect is on you.
" <-- How about the kids as adulkts get to sue their parents for every penny they have including pensions and Socialist Insecurity payments, if parents prevent a transgender child from transitioning?"
What are the damages here? In the case where a kid is gender reassigned, or is given puberty blocking drugs, you are intervening in a natural process. The parent is TAKING an action that is permanent and irreparable.
On the other hand, deferring a decision under most cases- especially in the case of gender reassignment- should not cause permanent damage, and the child is free to make the decision one way or the other after their body stops changing.
It is noteworthy that a HUGE number of surgeries are not recommended until at least kids get out of puberty and their body has stopped developing. The fact that for some reason the changing of reproductive systems is suddenly up for discussion is, frankly, insane to me. Those are the organs that are developing the most during puberty, and it seems quite interesting that every doctor will recommend against surgery on the bones of my kids before they stop growing but would intervene in hormone development.
"<-- What research do you think has not been done? This has been studied and theorized to death for over 70 years. All the data lines up against your point of view, you can solely cite fraud -- and no few lies I've seen you write here -- to back up your claimed opinions."
This assertion is incorrect. The data does not line up against Soldier here. At most, it can be said that the data is trending in the other direction, but for a long, long time the data has tended to align with what Soldier said.
At most, it can be said that the data is trending in the other direction..
And even that assertion is highly dubious, which I am not implying you stayed it was otherwise, and one of the very real possibilities even if it is trending one way would be due to societal pressures which we know have a stronger influence than they should especially in the social sciences and softer sciences.
"This isn't a crisis that needs fixing, nor anything other than the typical Kulture Warz bullshit that the right and left both engage in to keep their bases at their throats."
Well this is a poor take. This issue is communist programming and cultivation in mental illness to destroy some portion of an entire generation of kids. It's systemic predation.
How many times do you need to see the horrific consequences of capitulation to psychotic leftism before you'll learn you can't retreat your way to liberty?
There is nothing of communism in medically treating a physical birth defect.
It is not a birth defect. If your genes are XY, it's not a birth defect to have male genitalia and male characteristics, nor if you are XX is it a birth defect to have female genitalia or traits. That is basic fucking biology.
As for brain development, those are influenced by your mother's hormones. Male brains have a barrier that blocks excess estrogen into the brain, whereas females lack this mechanism. It's the same in every mammal. Of course, as with all biological traits, the degree of effectiveness is a range, not an absolute, so it may be possible for a XY individual to have a more feminized brain than average, however, except there is much less chance of the same thing occuring in females, as the amount of testosterone production in gravid females is extremely small. But it remains plausible.
Given that the majority of those choosing treatment for gender dysphoria are females, it is highly unlikely this would be the result of any known causative pathway in brain development in utero in females.
Brain development does continue to undergo marked development after birth, then the conclusion in gender dysphoria in females, is most likely environmentally induced and or the result of socialization. To a lesser degree this is true in males as well. We have a fairly solid idea of maternal hormone productions impact on fetal brain development, and it is fairly conserved across all mammals. From a strictly biological standpoint there is little evidence that gender dysphoria has a physiological cause.
I wonder if Tdperk would be the type of person who'd defend lobotomies as treating a birth defect?
But from a strictly liberal or libertarian perspective, what someone else does to their own genitals doesn't really affect you, so you shouldn't have a say in the matter, and you certainly shouldn't be forced by the state to snitch on them.
If it was their own genitalia and they are mature enough to make an informed decision than no it doesn't. Children however aren't mature enough to make or even understand those decisions and then if their parents make those decisions then it isn't the person making those decisions for themselves it's a proxy. Not really difficult to understand unless you are being purposely obtuse.
So, while I agree with Soldier that parents should not be pushing gender reassignment on their kids,
Or... the school system or counselors pushing it on them outside of the parental wishes...
As you evidently prefer, if you prefer that schools lie to children, say it proudly.
As you evidently prefer, if you prefer that schools lie to children, say it proudly.
Pointing out their delusions about objective reality is hardly lying to them.
" Above, Soldiermedic (among others) has given some compelling facts as to why gender reassignment and similar interventions are not a great idea. " <-- No, they have lied their ass off. What they have claimed is true, they have no factual excuse for claiming it, they will not be able to ret-con it later.
" Whereas a mere decade ago, it was a FACT that gender dysphoria could be transitory in many or most cases, today it is a FACT! that gender dysphoria can only be treated with gender reassignment" <-- It never was a fact gender dysphoria was transitory. It was a claim made on the strength of a fraud done by the use of a methodology with known inutility.
" I think it . . . game going forward. " <-- There is no such game.
Psychiatrists of past generations like John Money, Paul McHugh, Blanchard, and others like van Meter felt themselves privileged to advance their careers on the tombstones of others, to mutilate and abuse children for the sake of their pet theories of how humanity in whole or in part must be. They played a game for fame and fortune.
They have become ignored, because their theories and their like have never in the first 50 years of the history of the 70 contiguous years of transgender medicine never have had any explanatory or repairative power whatsoever. That is what the history of 50 years of treating transgender people like they were crazy did -- no good at all, ever. the affirmative therapy model gained purchase because it actually does some, and the earlier in a transgender person's life they experience it, the more good it does.
" And in a few years when the damage they caused is revisited upon them and their doctors in the form of law suits, that problem can correct for itself. " <-- Bigoted assholes have been predicting a "backlash" over this for well over 50 years, and they'll have to keep on waiting. It's never going to happen. They only expect it out of deliberate ignorance.
Except you are being completely dishonest here, we haven't been using puberty blockers or surgery in kids for 30 years. That is completely false. We have used puberty blockers in a very limited, medically prescribed means for a very specific medical condition, precocious onset puberty. The use to treat gender dysphoria is a fairly recent and remains off label use for it. You can try and argue that the use is to block puberty, therefore it isn't off label, but that ignores the label completely. Ozempic causes weight loss in diabetics, but using it specifically for weight loss is off label. It's only labeled for diabetes type II, although it is undergoing the process to get weight loss added to the label. There has been no attempt to get gender dysphoria added to the label of puberty blockers. It's label remains only for the delaying of puberty in precocious puberty. Period.
As for your other assertions you have made about the science. Two studies published in 2021 in the Lancet disagree with you. The first found that out of 14 children who did not receive puberty blockers, for their perceived gender dysphoria, 11 didn't regret not undergoing gender reassignment, only three elected to undergo gender reassignment. Of course this is a small number and thus it's findings aren't that strong, but it disputes your other assertions. The second study found that the science is far from settled as to the benefits of puberty blockers. Considering the Lancet is one of the premier medical science journals in the world, your assertions seem to be purely based upon confirmation bias.
"we haven't been using puberty blockers or surgery in kids for 30 years" <-- Yes, we have. Look them up.
" but that ignores the label completely " <-- Other than looking right at it in black and white, sure.
" Considering the Lancet is one of the premier medical science journals in the world " <-- And coughed of the fake Iraq fatality study...
I'll go with sources that aren't known to peddle lies for political reasons, thanks.
Well argued.
" Above, Soldiermedic (among others) has given some compelling facts as to why gender reassignment and similar interventions are not a great idea. " <-- No, they haven't. They have bullsshitted massive. Vioxx arguable killed no one ever and it was pulled, the mook you are claiming has good points is now BSing to claim puberty blockers have killed over 6000 people and not been pulled? Are you really unaware of the staggering level of their idiocy and duplicity?
Go Greg. Go Ken.
"That's an interesting version of conservatism."
That is because this isn't about conservatism it is about the culture wars. It is about protecting people from things that make them uncomfortable. It's about giving some people a little bubble where they can pretend the real world doesn't exist. A world without minorities or different sexual orientations. A world like their 1950 and 1960 TV shows.
The flip side applies just as well. Even more so. The conservative side is arguing that this is a life altering, often irreversible decision, and that kids aren't equipped to make these decisions, and that their parents may not be considering the full impact of these decisions. The other side is arguing that we must comfort to their view of this, must do everything to insure that everyone not only respects their decisions, but embraces them. With little evidence that this will actually benefit anyone.
" The conservative side is arguing that this is a life altering, often irreversible decision, and that kids aren't equipped to make these decisions, and that their parents may not be considering the full impact of these decisions. " <-- No, that is a Panglossian view of the progressive view that the state owns the children -- what you stand for here. You have presented no evidence for what you claim, and you can not.
I have presented a ton of evidence. You have dismissed it with dubious assertions and misstatements of reality. At no point did I say the government owns kids. I said what you quoted. You then misrepresented what I plainly said and then used that misrepesentation to make assertions not supported by anything I actually stated. You then made the untrue statement that I haven't provide facts or evidence, which is demonstrably wrong. What you have done is implied I was lying about the evidence. Which is disingenuouss. It is also an ad hominem. You haven't disputed anything I've stated, you have made assertions I was incorrect but haven't actually supported these assertions with counteracts of your own. In fact, you don't even seem to understand the term off label use. You also have used some extremely shaky logical arguments, see your example above where you said measures of mental health, such as suicide, alcohol and drug abuse, sexual promiscuity and related STDs, and the failure of your preferred treatment for gender dysphoria not being shown to decrease these, are irrelevant because it is gender dysphoria being treated. If you can't improve the negative benchmarks, your treatment isn't shown to be effective.
" I have presented a ton of evidence. " <-- No, you haven't. You have lied repetitively.
" At no point did I say the government owns kids. " <-- Yes, you did. That is the exclusive sole possible meaning of your claim government can prevent the medical treatement of transgender children for gender dysphoria.
" What you have done is implied I was lying about the evidence. " <-- I'm an not implying it, I'm saying it flatly -- you are a liar.
"You haven't disputed anything I've stated, you have made assertions I was incorrect but haven't actually supported these assertions with counteracts of your own." <-- Dude, the 'relins were approved by the mid -80's, not 1993.
The only thing medical/surgical transition could possibly treat is dyphoria, and it is effective at that and such sequalae as depression. I have presented evidence of that. You have lied you ass of about fake claims of side effects "caused by" blockers. End of story.
The other side is arguing that we must comfort to their view of this, must do everything to insure that everyone not only respects their decisions, but embraces them. With little evidence that this will actually benefit anyone.
This is false. Some of us are questioning whether this is a valid exercise of government power. That seems like a reasonable discussion point on a libertarian website. You don't have to comfort to my views, I honestly don't care and welcome discussion.
But don't misrepresent the other side. It makes your argument look weaker.
Considering my response was directly aimed at Mod4ever who made the false assertion, I was responding only to him and his absolutist statement. If you feel it included you, that is your problem and not mine.
Does is strike you that all this trans stuff is about as anti-gay and anti-diversity as you can get? A boy can’t just be an effeminate boy. If he is, then he’s not even a boy at all; he’s a girl!
If you don’t fit into the standard image of what a boy or a girl should be, then there’s something really fucking wrong with you that needs surgery to fix.
No, it only morons that way. There is nothing to do with being straight, gay, or bi that has anything to do with someone also being transgender or not. They have nothing to do with each other.
In theory. But in reality, most of these kids are just gay, or otherwise just a little different, but they’re being told that there’s something fundamentally fucked with them at the very core of their being.
No, idiot, they are being told no such thing. The "kid" tells the therapist, not the other way around. BTW, being gay is every bit as "fundamentally fucked with them at the very core of their being" as being transgender is.
The kid does tell the therapist that, but it’s only because the kid’s parents and teachers have already told him he’s the the wrong sex.
And actually, it’s mainly teenage girls who are not happy with the changes their bodies are going through, don’t like the sexual attention they’re starting to receive, see transitioning as a way to opt out. They also see other transsexual kids getting positive attention and that encourages them to do the same thing. Often, you see whole groups of friends deciding that they’re all transsexual.
How can you think that any of this is normal, healthy, or based in reality?
Actually, several of the people who have reported regret after undergoing these treatments as a kid report that what was really happening was they were becoming aware of their homosexuality but were to immature to understand that, and they felt pressured or were misdiagnosed as suffering gender dysphoria. Several noted and well respected bio-ethicists and medical professionals, and psychiatrist also have stated that in several cases the gender dysphoria label was misapplied to children who misunderstood their homosexuality or bisexuality. Again, you make an assertion that is questionable, and disputed by a number of well respected experts. You seem to suffer from confirmation bias, and have a warped sense of the complexity of the issue as a result. This is often the case in people who make absolutist statements, especially if they scream follow the science. To often they mean follow the science that supports their view and ignore any science that disputes their views.
" Actually, several of the people who have reported regret after undergoing these treatments as a kid report that what was really happening was they were becoming aware of their homosexuality but were to immature to understand that, and they felt pressured or were misdiagnosed as suffering gender dysphoria. " <-- At a rate of 1 in 100 who choose to transition medically/surgically, sure. IOW, it almost never happens -- and the kid still has to lie in order to be incorrectly diagnosed.
" Again, you make an assertion that is questionable, and disputed by a number of well respected experts. " <-- And you quote "experts" who are known to have committed fraud. You're the one with the confirmation bias.
I'm an older gay man and immigrant. You're full of it. It is progressive pricks like you that created the eugenics hell of the early 20th century.
Medically transitioning children is wrong, the same way that conversion therapy is wrong and that forcibly sterilizing people is wrong.
One of these things is not like the others. If you're forcing a child to gender transition against the child's will, that would be wrong.
Also, if you force them to forego therapies that would improve their mental health. That's wrong too.
But you have to prove that treatment works, and based upon all the benchmarks that is used to argue for the treatment, and the fact that there is no evidence that these benchmarks are improved, then it is hardly logical to argue your treatment regiment is successful.
"you have to prove that treatment works"
Or else what? The state will come and throw me in a cage?
What happened to parents being responsible for their own children and people making choices about their own private lives without their community getting involved?
If the treatment doesn't work, inflicting it on kids is hardly warranted given the often irreversible nature of these treatments. That is basic bio-ethics. If a treatment is ineffective, performing it, especially on children is not considered ethical behavior and is usually illegal.
They're not irreversible.
I come here for the libertarian arguments, not the "how many excuses can we make to throw people in cages?" arguments.
Even if we allow parents to make their own decisions, completely about their childrens' (which is demonstrably not the case, and arguably in many cases shouldn't be the absolutist position) it is unethical to perform a treatment or procedure that may result in irrevocable changes if it isn't effective.
" Medically transitioning children is wrong, the same way that conversion therapy is wrong and that forcibly sterilizing people is wrong. " <-- No, evil moron. Failing to help transgender children to transition and worse preventing it is conversion therapy.
Actually, it's the other side that pretends the real world doesn't exist - a world where a man can become a woman (or visa versa) simply by imagining it.
I was straight lectured about how bad it was to circumcise boys. But it’s okay to mutilate their bodies permanently?
GTFO.
Transitioning a minor is abuse.
Honestly, just introducing the idea of transgenderism to minors is child abuse. Have they even been taught basic biology yet?
And we have people defending the practice of deliberately programming and cultivating mental illness in children's developing mind.
Bring out the woodchippers for these sick predators.
" Have they even been taught basic biology yet? " <-- Quit pretending. You don't want them to know biology. You want them to know you bullshit cookie version of reality.
You are the sick predator.
Where are your NAMBLA meetings?
No, if a child is transgender, it is abuse to forbid their transition.
Assertion without facts. First, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria in youths is a a fairly new and not well studied field. As with most mental health issues, psychiatrist have been reticent to make mental diagnosis in young children, except for well understood developmental issues, because of the plasticity of the young brain and the resulting variability of symptoms. Psychopathy, Sociopathy, schizophrenia, narcism etc are rarely diagnosed in children. In fact the DSM recommends against diagnosing these issues before late adolescence or maturity, related to the plasticity of the adolescent brain. Gender dysphoria falls within these classes of diagnosis, yet some are now stating that we can diagnose it in ages as early as toddler hood.
Further, a good portion of those who are being treated for gender dysphoria are also on the autism spectrum. As an autistic myself, the feeling of not fitting in is itself a common symptom of Autism, especially high functioning Autism. Given the high chance for differential diagnosis, autism paired with homosexuality or bisexuality, there is a huge chance for misdiagnosis. Making an absolutist statement as you seem prone to, appears to ignore any possibility of being mistaken. If you can't entertain the idea of being wrong, then you aren't arguing scientifically or using critical thinking, you instead are arguing from a dogmatic viewpoint. Absolutist arguments are always dogmatic not science based.
" Assertion without facts. " <-- Says the liar.
" First, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria in youths is a a fairly new and not well studied field. " <-- Been going on for well over 50 years.
"As with most ... variability of symptoms. " <--- Actually, because there is no evidence it is a mental illness, but only a physical birth defect, they have stopped calling it a mental illness.
" Gender dysphoria falls within these classes of diagnosis " <--m No, it does not.
" yet some are now stating that we can diagnose it in ages as early as toddler hood. " <-- If by toddler you mean age three, of course yes -- that is about as early as a sense of one's gender ever develops in a child, and it almost always has by age 5.
" Further, a good portion of those who are being treated for gender dysphoria are also on the autism spectrum." <-- So what?
" As an autistic myself, the feeling of not fitting in is itself a common symptom of Autism, especially high functioning Autism. Given the high chance for differential diagnosis, autism paired with homosexuality or bisexuality, there is a huge chance for misdiagnosis. " <-- No, there is not, because autism and gender dysphoria are two different things, they have different symptoms. "Not fitting in" is not a symptom of gender dysphoria.
" Making an absolutist ... not science based. " <-- I know you have no evidence whatsoever you have presented so far for your opinions. I know you have told falsehoods. Science, facts, what is real; none of it is anything you care about.
Quit making shit up.
Oh look, a glimpse of sanity in the nuthouse. Of course "Reason" will object.
Paxton's argues that helping a child transition can cause them physical and psychological damage and that it deprives the child of the "right to procreation." Essentially, Paxton is borrowing from the argument against forced sterilization, which he references, as an argument against voluntary trans medical treatment.
Voluntary. I don't think that word means what you think it means.
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1684510317/reasonmagazinea-20/
A rumble featuring Faecebook versus Tejano Caudillo Fascism is a match worthy of the Octagon!
Scott Shackford did a good job describing what is and isn't done for kids with gender dysphoria. Anyone who would like a primary source, https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/SOC%20v7/SOC%20V7_English2012.pdf?_t=1613669341 is the Standards of Care including sections on what's appropriate for children.
There's a lot of misinformation, maybe deliberate, out there but actual medical practice is evidence-based and careful.
I don't see any substantial evidence in that document that interventions on minors lead to improved outcomes later in life.
Care to explain how such interventions are "evidence based"?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4771131/
Now you've seen it.
That has to be the worst written science article I've ever read (and I read them all the time for my job). The methodology was a fucking joke, no data was given, nor any statistical analysis. I don't know how this got past peer review. It was less than six paragraphs long, counting the abstract. There were very few citations. No metrics of measurement. The made assertions that anxiety and depression levels weren't different but failed to explain how these were measured or what those measurement results were. This is the least scientific article I've ever seen.
The entire article basically boils down to the authors making an assertion and not providing any data to back up their assertions. It doesn't even state the length of time as to when the kids transitioned or the length of time of the study. The researched group was literally picked by an advocacy group. It isn't evident that the control group is demographically similar to the treatment group, in fact other than calling them kids, no demographic information was provided. My fifth grade daughters science fair project had more complete methodology and data than this "study".
Additionally, the kids weren't directly interviewed by the reviewers this was entirely based upon parental questionnaires. After rereading it for a second time, it appears this was an article as opposed to an actual peer reviewed publication. I can see why they didn't submit it for peer review, as this would never have passed peer review.
" That has to be the worst written science article I've ever read " <--
Well it disprove you, so of course you'll claim that.
Of course, you are the POS liar saying drugs approved in the 80's weren't approved until the 90's...
The very first page states that these are flexible standards of care meant to support and promote transitioning, nothing about diagnosing the appropriateness of the care, nor any measures of it's effectiveness.
Really this particular thread seems to be mostly based upon look at these official looking papers, see how informed we are, with little questioning or skepticism regarding the underlying assertions made. Again, these are more the acts of the dogmatic rather than critical thinking.
Of course, you are the idiot claiming puberty blockers have killed over 6000 people...
Moron, it states it's finding support that. That's a different thing.
Of course, you are the idiot claiming puberty blockers have killed over 6000 people...
Correct. Puberty blockers and sex change operations on minors are not legitimate medical procedures.
You're free to argue that parents should be able to mutilate and harm their children any way they want to. Maybe in a libertarian society that's true (there would likely be extragovernmental means of protecting children).
But in the society that we actually live in, protection of children is the job of the state, and this is a clearcut case of protecting children from harm.
" Puberty blockers and sex change operations on minors are not legitimate medical procedures. " <-- Puberty blockers for minors in puberty who meet the criteria for gender dysphoria is the most medically legitimate thing which can be done for them, as a first measure, cross sex HRT next after at minimum 1 year's time, and surgery is already recommended only as an adult -- so since you conflated them, what legitimate opinion do you think you can have?
Based upon what rubric do you make the assertion it is the most appropriate treatment? Additionally, it isn't being only used in pubescent children, but in prepubescent children. Puberty blockers after onset of puberty would have very few benefits, unless continued until sexual reassignment surgery could be performed. The introduction of cross sex hormones also carries risks, and many of the changes only partially resolve after they are withdrawn. They also must be maintained for their entire life, even after reassignment surgery.
Your post is another example of either you are being disingenuous or do not understand the discussion, as puberty blockers aren't being used only in pubescent or post pubescent children. They are being recommended also in prepubescent children. Even in pubescent children, their use and benefits is debatable and controversial. Also, this contradicts previous posts you have made (not the first time,either) as you argued that it isn't off label use because puberty blockers are used to delay puberty, but if they are used in pubescent children, than it isn't to delay puberty but to stop it.
" Based upon what rubric do you make the assertion it is the most appropriate treatment? " <-- Because it prevents the dysphoria associated with undergoing an unwanted puberty contrary their gender, moron.
" Additionally, it isn't being only used in pubescent children, but in prepubescent children. Puberty blockers after onset of puberty would have very few benefits, unless continued until sexual reassignment surgery could be performed " <-- Meaningless in the first case and wrong in the second.
" The introduction of cross sex hormones also carries risks " <-- No, they are not magically risky. What are in use these days are bioidentical.
" They also must be maintained for their entire life, even after reassignment surgery." <-- So what? There is no elevated risk to the use of bio-identical hormones.
" They are being recommended also in prepubescent children. " <-- Again so what? They have in this country been so used for over 20 years, abroad, for longer -- no side effects are seen.
" Even in pubescent children, their use and benefits is debatable and controversial " <-- No, they are not, not of the basis of facts.
" Also, this contradicts previous posts you have made (not the first time,either) as you argued that it isn't off label use because puberty blockers are used to delay puberty, but if they are used in pubescent children, than it isn't to delay puberty but to stop it. " <-- No, moron, they are used to delay puberty, there is no contradiction. They either undergo the puberty of their sex or they undergo the other, each is a puberty -- two different flavors.
Generally, parents are not forcing children to become trans. I'd say in nearly 100% of cases, parents would prefer it not be a thing.
You can't be for freedom if you're not for the freedom of other people to live differently than you.
You are basing these assertions on what facts? There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that disputes this, however, there have been very few actual peer reviewed studies that have addressed this possibility.
" You are basing these assertions on what facts? There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that disputes this, however, there have been very few actual peer reviewed studies that have addressed this possibility. " <-- Your "anecdotes" are only assertions, there is no data to study.
"providing transgender medical care to their children"
You mean, parents drugging children with body and mind altering drugs before they're old enough to consent?
A person cannot be "transgender" until they're old enough to choose to be transgender. So "transgender medical care" cannot legitimately be provided to children by parents.
And adults who have gender dysphoria need psychological treatment-- Not universal affirmation and participation in their delusion.
No doe sor can chose to be transgender, it is a condition created while in utero.
" Not universal affirmation and participation in their delusion. " <-- You will be unable to name any delusion a transgender person per se has.
What is that condition?
Show the developmental pathway that would result in this in utero? Because, despite a MS in biological science I can't come up with a satisfactory pathway for this, especially in females. All brains are female to start with, however, the y chromosome encodes for the enzymes that prevents the actions of estrodial on brain development. It is possible that a deficiency in these enzymes may feminize a male brain, in fact this is actually documented in animal models, however, the brain is rarely ever completely feminized, as it's rare for these enzymes to be completely dysfunctional, and males produce higher levels of testosterone in utero, than females, which also impacts brain development. As the woman is incapable of donating a y chromosome any autosomal defects would come from the male parent, and it would be extremely rare for dysfunctional y chromosomes to be passed on.
Double X chromosomes produce high levels of estrogen and very little testosterone (the medulla portion of the medulla cortex located on the kidneys produces small amounts of both sex hormones, as they have other functions besides sexual regulations). As they lack a y chromosome they are incapable of producing enzymes that deactivate estrodial in the developing fetal brain. In cattle it does sometimes occur, what is known as a free martin, where the production of fraternal different sex twins will result in a masculinized female, however, these changes go far beyond brain development and include many visible masculine traits, as well as incomplete sexual organ production in the female. This is extremely rare in humans, and requires a shared placenta, which is rare with fraternal twins. Testosterone production high enough to disrupt brain development in fetal females would also make carrying the fetus to term extremely unlikely.
Based upon animal models, and imaging of humans at all ages, the assertion of this as a fetal development seems scientifically dubious. It would also be far more likely in males than in females, as female is the default in development in fetuses and only the y chromosome and testosterone production changes this in males, and female embryos lack the former, and produce very little of the latter.
Thank you for your generally polite well informed logical arguments on this subject. While it might not seem to be the most important thing that society is dealing with right now for those that are dealing with it, it is the most important thing. It is hard to have logical arguments with people being illogical. It is even harder when it is your child. People that don't think this is a major issue in society right now really aren't paying attention to what is happening with teenagers and younger right now. It is relentless in shows, youtube, Reddit, etc and like many society discussions, any logical arguments get rejected and slammed as bigotry such that are children are mostly hearing lies, biased facts, or half-truths.
So thank you for standing and up and arguing from an informed position in a polite and logical manner.
" Thank you for your generally polite well informed " <-- He is lying his ass off.
" Show the developmental pathway that would result in this in utero? Because, despite a MS in biological science I can't come up with a satisfactory pathway for this, especially in females. " <-- Then give back your degree. You are apparently unaware of anything to do with how sexual dimorphism develops. For one, things like the Mullerian regression hormones dictate the development of the sex and the sex hormones dictate the development of the brain. Did you know that? Are you aware those are two different things with different receptor genes altogether? Are you aware 1 in 20 AFAB people with severe PCOS are transgender males?
Do you really know anything about what you are talking about ?
This is great news. As a gay elder I saw first hand(as a teenager) my friends grow out of gender dysphoria. It did take some of them till their mid twenties but they all got it in the end. Conservatives, Christians, and liberals all have a lot to learn on the subject, but I can ally on taking a strong stance against this form of child abuse.
" As a gay elder I saw first hand(as a teenager) my friends grow out of gender dysphoria. " <-- No, you did not. You quite likely hav eno idea what gender dysphoria is.
For one thing, it rarely shows up in teenagers as a first occurrence.
Intruder alert! Platform committee whack job infiltrator detected. Initiate doxxing sequence...
I would classify transgender medical treatment for a minor as "statutory human experimentation violations".
Just because you never heard about trans people until it showed up on your all-fascist Facebook feed doesn't mean this hasn't been a long evolution in medical science going back decades and centuries.
You just feel icky and want to use the state to force people to make the icky go away. There's nothing more to it than that.
I don’t need you to tell me about me. I know me.
Tell us about you. You actually have experience and facts about that. Me? Not so much.
a. In order to stay consistent, may I assume you also think circumcision is "statutory human experimentation violations"?
b. Do you agree with the letter by Greg Abott?
Fuck you, I'm not reporting a goddamn bank robbery to the police, let alone a trans kid undergoing a well established therapy.
Naturally, all the small-minded mental voids here in "small government freedom" land want to force all children into their Mayberry-esque conception of the universe, lest they feel even a tinge of discomfort.
Forcing children to wait until they are legal adults before they make permanent, life-altering decisions.
The horror, Tony. The horror.
It strikes me that my attitude of people own their bodies and can do what they wish with them is no longer sufficiently liberty and individualism promoting for some people, because I don't think 14-year-olds have the capacity to think things through.
Maybe even in some extremely rare and unusual circumstance where a young person is suffering horribly because their identity and their body don't line up, I could be convinced. But as a general rule? No. We should not even be thinking of transitioning children on their whims. I'll draw my line there. You can can me a Nazi now.
What's so permanent about hormone therapy and surgery?
We can't wait until a person is 18 before they make life-altering decisions. It's just not feasible. Otherwise there would be no summer camp or musical talent in the world. Nobody would have any interests or careers. You're making up shit on the fly and not thinking it through.
Then why don’t we let kids get a job when they decide they’d rather, say, start their carpentry work now instead of wasting years reading English lit?
Now do statutory rape.
You people are having a suspiciously difficult time distinguishing between violence against people and people making decisions for themselves.
This is a libertarian site, so I expect you to be against the government of Texas forcing people to snitch on people for the crime of doing what they want with their own bodies. It, like, shouldn't even be a close call.
Alas, your brain was permanently curdled by Jesus preachers, so nothing matters more than forcing everyone else into your tiny, stultifying cultural universe.
You’re fantasizing about me again.
I’m just wondered where a closet communist draws the line when it comes to “kids can make all the adult decisions they want!”
So, where do you stand on statutory rape? Too Mayberry for you?
The amusing thing is how completely you supposed libertarians misunderstand the point, when it comes to these body-based culture war wedge issue horseshit crusades Republicans trot out instead of having governing ideas.
People are going to do all sorts of weird shit with their bodies. Like drugs. Or piercings. Or getting pregnant.
As is inherent in the legal logic of Roe vs. Wade, which you no doubt hate, the point is that we are free people first, free to do what we want with OUR OWN BODIES.
Maybe what we want to do with OUR OWN BODIES is a bad idea. But we are free nonetheless, and government has to have a pretty compelling public interest before it should intervene in our free choices. Got it? Remember what being a libertarian was about?
Instead, you guys have been falling all over yourselves coming up with ways to use state violence to force people to do things they don't want to do, just because you are uncomfortable with their private life choices. How does it feel that I, Tony, am among the very few people here actually espousing a libertarian point of view (I just call it liberal, but whatever)?
“ As is inherent in the legal logic of Roe vs. Wade, which you no doubt hate, the point is that we are free people first, free to do what we want with OUR OWN BODIES.”
So I never have to use my body to bake a cake I don’t want to, do I?
I had no idea you were so into freedom.
Really? If you use your hands to strangle a hooker to death, the state has a compelling interest. I'll take it my argument won you over and you're too proud to admit it, so you're spouting nonsense.
So you’re saying the state has no compelling interest in compelling bakers to bake gay wedding cakes?
You’re a libertarian. I had no idea.
I can see how your position is very consistent with libertarianism. It’s just not consistent with anything you actually believe.
I'm saying that isn't a case where bodily autonomy comes into it. That was your rather tenuous framing.
I'll allow that there are two legitimate competing rights claims in the gay wedding cake business: the right to serve whom you please vs. the right to be free of sexual-orientation-based discrimination in the marketplace. I think the former is less compelling than the latter, but to each his own.
Why not? Bakers use their bodies to bake cakes.
You said, “ we are free people first, free to do what we want with OUR OWN BODIES.”
So what did you mean that were free to do what we want with OUR OWN BODIES?
Because the customer has a rights claim in that situation.
Just like you think a fetus has a rights claim in the case of abortion, absurdly.
So what rights claim is exemplified by child labor laws?
the right of children to be free of exploitation and robbed of their childhood and education?
But what if they don’t want an education? Aren’t you forcing them to do something against their own wishes with their mind? That’s part of their body.
…and you vanish in a cloud of cognitive dissonance.
If a child doesn't want an education, that child would be literally every child.
These analogies would be much better informed if you would do a modicum of reading on the subject of gender transition. It's not permitted to be done lightly.
That really doesn’t address the fact that you’re completely OK with telling people what they can do with their OWN BODIEs!
That doesn’t make much sense to me. If all kids want to avoid school, and your force them to do that to their own minds anyway, then doesn’t that make it worse? By your logic, child education laws are a massive scale violation of what children want to do with their bodies, but a law against experimental hormone treatment for kids with gender dysphoria would only affect a small minority. Seems like, if you really cared about child bodily autonomy, the trans laws is much better.
Ok. Now that I’ve won that argument, here’s how I would have argued your side of this, that’s actually consistent with your own way of looking at the world:
Laws define what rights people have, and what rights they are permitted with their own bodies. That’s why we have prescription drug laws, child labor laws, statutory rape laws, etc.
Life isn’t about rights claims. It’s a power struggle between marginalized groups. And trans kids are marginalized.
There’s no valid compelling social interest in regulating what drugs kids take in this particular instance because doctors should be free to take the side of people on the wrong side of a power imbalance. They’re not free to do medicine in a whole other host of ways, but not this one.
There, see? You can take a (sort of) consistent view of this without having to appeal to libertarianism you don’t believe in. That’s the fun part of being able to make up any narratives you want to.
Oh yeah, and I follow up with:
“I hope my views are incredibly popular in our democracy, lest I have to accuse myself of tyranny for thinking them.”
Adults can do whatever the fuck they want with their bodies. Key word being "Adults". But then you knew that and, much like the other morons pushing this, you're going to just sit there and strawman the fuck out of anyone's position who doesn't agree with you.
Tony is repeating the rationale whereby communist anarchists added child molesting planks to the LP platform after we had successfully moved individual rights for women into national jurisprudence. Fallacy is also the same, in that children have incomplete contractual competence. Republican and Prohibition Party zealots will stop at nothing to get fools writing our planks, and they know how to nurse a grudge.
Evidence for puberty blockers use very low, says NICE
The evidence for using puberty blocking drugs to treat young people struggling with their gender identity is "very low", an official review has found.
The National Institute of Health and Care Excellence (NICE) said existing studies of the drugs were small and "subject to bias and confounding".
The assessment of the evidence into the drugs was commissioned by NHS England.
It is part of a review into gender identity services for children and young people.
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56601386
That doesn’t sound “well-established.”
As libertarians, we don't care what drugs people take, I thought. At the very least, we don't want state violence getting involved.
Now do experimental vaccinations.
People should be able to take experimental vaccinations if they want. Should they not?
Should they be forced to?
Depends on the situation. Contagious diseases really convolute issues of bodily autonomy.
But I see where you're going, and of course, nobody's been forced to take the Covid vaccine.
So, people are free to do what they want with THEIR OWN BODIES… depending on the situation?
So, how do you evaluate the situation?
You tell me. Don't you think women should be forced to carry pregnancies to term and give birth against their will?
If you're walking around spreading Ebola to people, your liberty is no longer the only thing at stake.
I thought you were the one explaining it all to everyone.
“ But I see where you're going, and of course, nobody's been forced to take the Covid vaccine.”
Ok, so maybe you don’t have to take a vaccine, but you lose your job.
And maybe you can give kids experimental hormone therapies for gender dysphoria, but you lose your medical license.
All good?
I confess that I don't know enough about the trans experience to have truly informed opinions, so I'm erring a bit on the side of disagreeing that Greg Fucking Abbott gets to compel me to snitch on people under threat of state violence for doing what, I gather, is an increasingly common and routine therapy.
I think the burden is on you for why the state should be permitted to force people into cages for being trans. Why, in general, is your flavor of libertarianism so totally obsessed with all the reasons you want to throw people in cages for?
How about “democracy says so”?
Democracy says "get the fuck off my children's genitals, Greg Abbot" and also that Hillary Clinton should be president, so, sure.
But we should base that on democracy now, not democracy as it was 6 years ago for arbitrary reasons.
More US voters identify as Republican or lean Republican than democrat or lean democrat.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/388781/political-party-preferences-shifted-greatly-during-2021.aspx
Whatever you say.
I don't deny that it's possible to win the masses over with sensationalized body-based moral panics and amplified tribal hatred.
The question is why would you vote for people who did such fascism? And what makes you think you'd survive the mass killing?
Why, in general, is your flavor of libertarianism so totally obsessed with all the reasons you want to throw people in cages for?
See below. Let's say that, instead of identifying them as trans and cutting off their genitals, the community was identifying them as gay and just stabbing them to death, and Abbott were passing a 'see something, say something' law. Would you still be opposed? Consent all remains the same. The kids come to the parents and say "I've sinned, I'm gay." The parents respond with "Are you sure this is what you want?" and it all flows from there. You're cool with that? How about if, instead of stabbing them to death, the outcome was just conversion therapy? Still cool?
Democracy isn’t all about me. That’s the point.
Anyway, I guess you’re dropping the whole argument about “well-established”?
Suddenly it’s not important? How convenient.
You're not a libertarian Tony.
That doesn’t sound “well-established.”
Yeah, people keep saying that "Children are too young to make this decision for themselves." but that steals a base. It's nowhere near clear that adults are able to make this decision from either the "I am of sound mind and body." angle or the "I will deal with the consequences of this decision out of my pocket and only my own pocket." angle, let alone both together.
Again, I'm in favor of letting people smoke, do drugs, etc., etc. but the argument that people generally aren't irresponsible, abusive idiots (and can be responsibly charged with the care of their children) is become progressively less and less fertile ground.
I won’t call the police, but I’ll be sympathetic towards the future lawsuits for any child recipient who was allowed to make decisions they weren’t ready for.
^+1.
Parents are supposed to protect their kids from bad decisions until the 'age of consent'; that's their job along with explaining why.
Certainly opposed to the government sticking its nose in parent/child issues, but it is also the government's job to protect children from parents abusing them, and paying for medical re-gendering of a minor seems to fall in that bucket.
If the kid is certain, there's no lack of time to make the choice, have the procedures done and get what you get. AFTER your 18th birthday.
(Anyone here who did not make a bone-headed decision prior to their 18th birthday, hold up your hand. Yeah I can't see any, but that's also because there *aren't* any)
If 10 year-old Janie is too young to fuck 30 year-old Mike... then she's too young to decide she's a he and become James...
Either age of consent matters... or it does not. You cannot, with any logical consistency, have both.
@see.more As long as you consider any parent that allowed a circumcision to be a child abuser, you get to hold the position you made in your comment. Otherwise you are the one with no "logical consistency".
Shouldn't be making assumptions mate. Circumcision is genital mutilation and a decision best left to the individual, as an adult, to make for himself.
I have no problem with logical consistency. How about you?
>undermine the legitimacy of any kind of transgender health care
Absolutely classic "reason" switcheroo, trying to change child abuse to health care. I guess as far as Shackford is concerned, Mengele and Unit 731 were providing health care, too.
That's right. Those were valid medical experiments, in those people's opinions, so who are we to argue? That's entirely in keeping with the tone of this article. Seriously. Absolutely insane. I was born poor, but I identify as a rich mofo. Whose gonna reassign me to my proper position of money and power? It's dang frustrating being poor, and that's something I shouldn't have to put up with. Where is my reassignment stipend?
I'm a libertarian, and I generally like Reason, but this is just insane. Calling the mutilation of children a "medical procedure" is not correct, or sane. Children are what they are born as. Coddling them when they say they are something they are not is just wrong. We don't let them smoke cigarettes, no matter how badly they may want to. We don't let them drive. We don't let them drink alcohol. They can't vote. They can't run for office. They don't have their own bank accounts (if they do, their parents still have ultimate control over those, BY LAW). If we let them decide what sex they are (it's not gender, that's just for grammar), then why don't we let them decide what age they are? They can identify as being 21 and we should have to sell them alcohol, cigs, spray paint, anything. Is that silly? Because you say (apparently with a straight face) that we can let them decide they are actually something they are not? A boy is a boy. A girl is a girl. Get used to it. You can mangle one and pretend it's the other, but you may as well claim that the moon is the sun, and the sun doesn't exist. It ain't gonna change reality. Otherwise, I am declaring myself a giraffe. It's all part of my long standing IAAAA position. It's pronounced "Ahhh-eeeee". It stands for "I Am Actually Another Animal." If boys can be girls, and girls can be boys, then I can be a giraffe. Giraffes don't pay taxes. Giraffes don't work for a living, they get taken care of by zoos. That's right, I'm not a wild giraffe, I'm a zoo-living giraffe, but I have high standards, so my zoo needs to be a high rise apartment building. I'm also short for a giraffe, so I deserve special treatment, in the form of Short Giraffe Reparations. Pay my happy ass!
Interesting question: If Jim Jones had survived and went on to round up another 300 adult followers and gave them kool aid would that be generally socially acceptable? How high does the pile of bodies get before anybody does anything?
Because, ultimately, that's what this boils down to. Even the adults who've transitioned are rather religiously delusional about "I'm a woman." I have yet to meet a cis woman who had to take puberty blockers as a pre-teen and have her penis amputated. So, even for adults, it's quite a bit like assuming the sacrificial virgin is fulfilled in the afterlife. So, exactly how many sacrificial virgins, of any age, is any given cult allowed to toss into the volcano before anybody anywhere is allowed to say 'No.'?
So, exactly how many sacrificial virgins, of any age, is any given cult allowed to toss into the volcano before anybody anywhere is allowed to say 'No.'?
As should be pretty clear from my statements too, I'm fine with both literally and metaphorically administering the sacrament, even to children, but that's not where this story ends. We've got teachers in classrooms teaching the metaphorical equivalent of respecting the virgins who've chosen to be thrown into the volcano. We've got court cases where one parent metaphorically wants their kid to become a virgin sacrifice and the other parent doesn't. We've got litigation guaranteeing the right of virgin sacrifices using whatever restroom they want or playing on whatever sports team they want. Additionally, we've got several amendments that are supposed to forbid, both literally and metaphorically, most all of the above.
So, exactly how many sacrificial virgins, of any age, is any given cult allowed to toss into the volcano before anybody anywhere is allowed to say 'No.'?
Getting pretty SJW-y about it; if 100% of transitions were FtM, would cis-women really have no ground to stand on when they assert that these girls were being forced by the patriarchy? Less ground than they would have with regard to polygamy and child brides? In the latter case, the fathers, mothers, and children all consented, so where's the rub? No grounds when polygamists asserted that pre-teens broadly be taught about polygamy in public shools? No grounds when polygamists insisted that their daughter/wives be addressed as Mrs. followed by their husband's last name? No grounds when schools allowed or even enacted and enforced rules that girls on any given sports team had to be married?
Oh, huh:
This reads to me, from the words of Mr. Shackford himself, like "If Charlotte can dictate who can use what restroom because, otherwise, harm might come to transgendered individuals, then Abbott isn't acting even remotely extra-Constitutionally to prevent harm to children by banning gender conversion therapy."
Good thing Shackford has already dismissed his own opposition in this case as irrelevant panic.
That day parental ordered mutilation of their children's sex organs became "popular" and "acceptable"... Didn't you hear.... It's personal liberty that allows one person to mutilate another... It's the toe-line of every libtard.
And to think it use to be against the law to mutilate children's sex organs for fun or feed them psychedelic drugs..........
Dude, have you turned in every parent you know who let there son be circumcised as a "child abuser"? If the answer is no then you believe in mutiliating a childs organs, under your definitions.
....And the excuse for that mutilation isn't "cause I'm retarded and wanted to play with my kids sex organs".
Under the logic of your retarded response anyone who changes a diaper must be a child molester so why not just make all child molestation legal.
What our society fails to recognize is that for any one unambiguous question there is only one correct answer that represents reality but an infinite number of wrong answers. Rationality isn’t a democracy.
For someone to question for example if they “feel like a woman does” they either have lived life to that point as a fully functioning female of the species, the only correct answer to understand the reality of being a woman, or they haven’t, a wrong answer.
Except there are many who meet your definition: "lived life to that point as a fully functioning female of the species"
and "feel like a man". So I guess your comment falls into the "inifinite number of wrong answers" category" Congratulations.
So, let me get this straight...Conservatives are currently up in arms claiming the Govt has no business telling parents what's best for their children in regards to mask wearing in schools. Fair enough. But, once again here comes "conservative hypocrisy" on steroids. Apparently, the Govt does have control over our kids depending on what we're talking about. Well, we can't have it both ways people!!! As usual, most people commenting don't know what they're even talking about and have absolutely zero knowledge on the subject to have an opinion. BRAVO!!!!
It’s not hypocritical to want some laws to protect people but not so many to eliminate all freedom of choice.
If you disagree, which do you advocate?
Never-mind that HUGE factor that 'parents' are indeed ordering their children to preform surgeries and take drugs.
I'll grant you one thing; it's better than the Government 'ordering' it done against the parents and the childs freedom.
But only a libtard pretends freedom is about allowing a person to mutilate and drug another... Because golly geez; If the government isn't out stealing things from the people for libtards I guess it has no purpose at all (hint, hint; Individual Justice)...
Welcome to government-subsidized, entrenched, looter kleptocracy doublethink and reality control. The whole subject brings out the most shocking realization that both tentacles are monsters, and that the LP needs to go back to our original platform and study how slimy ideology slowly infiltrated and corrupted our once-exemplary alternative party.
yes the TX law is probably going a bit far
but this is the reaction you get when government employees are openly grooming pre-teens
see this is why red and blue need a divorce
reds in blue areas and blues in red areas are never going to be happy
what one sees as perfectly reasonable the other sees as "monstrous and tragic"
everyone else gets caught in the middle
when these groups are forced into direct contact the result is more crazy laws that affect everyone else
if there weren't kids in Texas being pressured into what most Texans see as tragic, irreversible self-mutilation as a result of mental illness, there wouldn't be any impetus for overreach
if it happens in San Francisco (where gov't officials have taken the choice of NOT raising gender-confused children away from parents) it's not their problem
yes the TX law is probably going a bit far
See my points above. We can't prove the ultimate outcome of transition therapy and, scientifically/objectively, it's not a provable outcome. So everybody's got to take that on faith. And if we were talking about giving kids grape juice and waifers it would be one thing but we're talking about pharmaceutical interventsion more permanent and deleterious than psilocybins or methamphetamines and surgical interventions objectively more risky and deleterious than circumcision (the treatment for a catastrophically botched circumcision may, in fact, be a transition). Analogous to what I point out above, even in Germany, among adults, Armin Meiwes was convicted of murdering a consenting adult. Would a TX law preventing parents from tossing their kids into volcanoes as virgin sacrifices be going too far? IDK.
There may be a case to be had that these therapies fall under existing child endangerment/abuse laws and the new law is not needed but that's not what's being argued here. Quite the opposite. Of greater concern in that light, unlike Armin Meiwes where he wasn't taught cannibalism in school, we teach kids about using the proper pronouns and fire teachers who say "Nobody should be forced to use the proper pronouns." and discipline/disadvantage kids who say "I don't want to use the lockerroom with people who force me to use their preferred pronouns."
I don't see this as a Red and Blue issue exactly. It's pretty clear that Blue is against Conversion Therapy even if the kid consents. Red would almost certainly agree to intervening in religious rights if kids were being tossed into volcanoes. In that regard, the TX law seems perfectly adequate. Don't want to be regarded as a child abuser for giving your child puberty blockers to treat gender dysphoria? Find another treatment or don't live in TX. Much the same way (less oppressive actually) we currently regard, "Don't want to be seen as a pedophile for having multiple barely legal brides? Don't live outside specific communities in UT or AZ."
Blue is for making conversion therapy illegal even for consenting adults, and Shackford seems pretty sanguine toward that.
I would say that this is all about his ideological worry that preventing minors making permanent life altering decisions before age of consent invalidates gender transitioning as a valid treatment gender identity disorder. This is attacking queer ideology in his mind is what makes him think this must be resisted.
Good luck trying to stop circumcision of babies if you can't even stop this.
What's amazing is that we've even been able to stop clitoridectomy in a climate that's moving toward acceptance of "family desires" in sex-contradiction.
funny how Islamists and progressives have these weird intersections
"hey, you got your transgender reassignment surgery in my clitoridectomy!"
Dude most parents to males in this country genitally mutilate them as babies. White conservative males at the highest percentage.
Drugging your kids to enable their psychological delusions is child abuse and is not a liberty that parents have. Good for Texas.
Why wouldn't we trust the psychiatric/medical establishment when it wants to perform life-altering procedures on little children? What could go wrong?
Sure, the psycho establishment was for eugenics, forced sterilization, frontal lobotomies, electric shock therapy, forced institutionalization, repressed memory syndrome, etc. over the past century, but, hey, nobody's perfect. Trust them and go back to sleep.
Except they changed their views when better evidence came in.
In many cases, there *was* no evidence in the first place, just assumptions often based on religious belief.
The idea that transsexuality was a mental illness for example.
Before 1950, the only people who didn't believe that had been exterminated by the Nazis, their research papers burnt along with the rest of the Sexuellewissenschaft library.
Now we have a deep distrust of the medical profession, but only when it says things we don't want to hear. I await the TX legislature proclaiming that infant vaccination is child abuse next. Or maybe just the Governor and indicted AG.
Until 18 you're not allowed to smoke a cigarette but you should be allowed to make changes that will forever change your life. Do you not understand why this is insane?!
Here's the point I haven't seen anyone make:
In Abbotts letter he included as child abuse this line:
"the removal of otherwise healthy body parts"
It turns out under his logic he should go to jail for not turning his own parents in as child abusers for allowing him to be circumcised (assuming that he is in the over 99% of white Texans who were circumcised).
I would love a reporter to ask him to comment on the fact that he has defined his own parents as child abusers, and himself as a criminal for not turning them in. Additionally he has defined over 99 percent of parents to males in Texas as child abusers. Oh the irony. Of course this massive faceplant has not been picked up on by the media, so he gets to skate.
So let's wait for the looter media to bite the hand that feeds them.
Look up "Klan in Dallas." The Monkey Trial, anti-Evolutionist, Creation pseudoscience, Race Suicide Armageddon and Landover Baptist White Terror mentality again has a hold on Texas. This is thanks in part to the cowardly straddle whereby the infiltrated Libertarian Platform committee chose to throw pregnant women under the bus and added child-molesting planks. Women voters fled in horror, but redneck politicians seen their chances and took 'em.
Just an observation, not requiring any response since I won't be back here after I post this: I find it interesting that those who oppose parental oversight of 'underage' children's health, both mental & physical, seem to be in favor of that old African proverb "It takes a village to raise a child." The reference is to 'community' showing any child how to function in the world outside their own homes, but now it's the Texas government that's getting involved in intensely personal family matters. Not very libertarian, IMO ....
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Is it a proper role of the government to support the (and components of the) nuclear family? Is it a proper role of the government to control the creation of "freaks"?
@Geiger Goldstaedt
Alternate theory: we are allowing immature youths to make these decisions in order to help them. I don't see how it would destroy the nuclear family or its components. If a man and woman are happily married and raising kids I don't see that it matters that the woman had a dong at one point earlier in her life.
It also seems unlikely that transpeople's self-worth exists only in relation to the government, since they existed before the government recognized them in any official way, and often existed in the face of the government's determined opposition.
So your argument is that the government knows better than parents in all cases or just certain cases? Assuming you wouldn't be for forcing children to have vaccinations against their parents wishes, where do you draw the line?
Again I ask, what business is it of yours if someone else wants to make a decision that may or may not ruin their life? I don't see why the state needs to protect us from ourselves in this case.
" Parent and child consent to have the child's eyes removed. " <-- Then until you have some excuse for thinking otherwise, presume there was a good reason for it like tumors.
" Parent and child agree that the child should fuck strangers for money. It's consensual. Whose rights are violated? " <-- The child's because they cannot consent to such.
Which one is not neccessary medical treatment for the child?
The proper role of the government is to protect those that can't protect themselves and kids are definitely the population least capable of protecting themselves. As for the nuclear family, it provides the best stability and success for children, as such, it is far more in our interest, as a society and a nation, to preserve the nuclear family.
If our culture can't be preserved in such a way as to keep the family structures that work, then the government won't be able to do anything about it. It should stop being actively antagonistic towards it, though.
what business is it of yours
Medicare, Medicaid, ACA, DCFS, and, arguably, public schooling. Do away with all of the above (and refund my money) and then, afterwards, I agree, it's none of my business. Until then, it's my business that your kid gets to use my tax dollars to force my kid to call yours by pronouns that the English (or Spanish, or French, etc.) class they both just sat through taught them are the wrong ones.
So, you don't have a logical or consistent counterargument do you devolve to the "government shouldn't decide". Sorry, but I don't even think that this is consistent with libertarianism. There is a role for government in libertarian principles, and that role isn't to satisfy everyone's wishes, but also to protect the vulnerable. Children are the most vulnerable and also the most at risk from peer pressure and parental pressure and pressure from authorities. They also have no concept of the future. Your argument is, when taken to it's logical and consistent conclusion, is that parental rights make any enforcement of laws to protect kids wrong. This means the government would have no role to prevent abuse or exploitation, if the parents and kids agree to it. But we know this isn't the case. We recognize it. We recognize that kids lack the ability to make informed decisions in just about all areas, but permanent sex reassignment is somehow different? Why?
As for parents, the ability of parents to change or influence their kids decisions cannot be understated. And, no parents don't always do what is best for their children. Even when well meaning, parental actions can be quite detrimental, or even selfish. We recognize this, but somehow making a life altering, irreversible decision in regards to gender reassignment is different? How and why?
I want to surgically remove my child's heart. He's on board but he does not really know what this means long-term.
Nobody should stop me, right?
You don't get any argument from me on social services.
But, it's not fair to say that because the state pays for certain things that the majority gets to vote on everyone's healthcare. That's like saying because we're authoritarian we have to be authoritarian.
What other procedures should you get to vote on before your tax dollars support it?
We can classify anything under healthcare. So where is the line drawn? Should the state be able to protect kids from Munchausen by proxy? Or if the parents starve their kids so that they remain skinny, is their no role for the government? It isn't harming anyone if the kids agree to it, is it? Oh, but we realize the kids really can't consent to these, because they don't understand the consequences, so what is the difference?
You don't get any argument from me on social services.
OK then. I don't need to read the rest of your statement.
But, it's not fair to say that because the state pays for certain things that the majority gets to vote on everyone's healthcare. That's like saying because we're authoritarian we have to be authoritarian.
Oh, so you didn't mean I won't get an argument. You meant, I'll give up the money and then you'll argue about what's fair and assert that I'm being the authoritarian for my 'no taxation without representation' stance. I see.
What other procedures should you get to vote on before your tax dollars support it?
All of them. You asked what business it is of mine and I answered. As long as my tax dollars are being taken to pay for or regulate it. I'm fine if my tax dollars don't get collected. But when someone else collects my tax dollars and then you insist on what is and isn't a fair way to spend them, *I'm* not the authoritarian you're looking for.
We can classify anything under healthcare.
My answer wasn't limited to healthcare. If I pay a school to teach my kid Spanish and, instead of Spanish, they teach my kid to speak LatinX, I should be able to get my money back. Regardless of whether there actually is a LatinX kid motivating the change or not.
I agree it would be ludicrously disruptive to switch to that standard tomorrow and rigid adherence invites sophistry but, libertarian-wise, it's not at all an indefensible stance.
Surely I can take this to another extreme.... Suppose the government mandated children to all be vaccinated 15 times against COVID? We can't trust the parents to make medical decisions, after all. Would you side with the government in this case?
No, individual rights. I apply rights much more broadly than just transgender.
Resorting to ad hominem already?
I guess we're probably not going to reach a common ground on this one. Have a nice day.
All that is not forbidden is mandatory
Do kids have enough volition to assert their rights? And if not, then whose individual rights are being curtailed, the parents?
So make that not a crime.
Inversely with this law, some perv cop is going to be checking out the cheerleading squad for surgical scars - for investigative purposes of course.
It's nice not to give a shit until your kid tells his teacher he thinks he's a girl and you're oppressing him by disagreeing, and then CPS takes your kid away at the point of a gun.
Or, as I point out below and as has analogously has been proliferated everywhere, I send my kid to school to learn Spanish and they wind up learning LatinXese. I send my cis-son to school, a trans-boy walks into the men's room and alleges my son
rapedmisgendered her. A well-respected professor gets hounded out of his job, not because he won't call a transgendered student by their preferred pronoun, but because he openly thinks it's a bad idea for the government to force people to do it.The idea that this is just about parents making choices for their kids, even if you think that's all it should be about, is a bullshit argument in 2022. Even if I'm ambivalent about dosing your own kids with hormones and cutting their genitals off, sending them to school and forcing other kids to support you/them is child abuse. Forcing the science teacher to forego discussions about gender dichotomy or the sex ed teacher to teach my kids about gender fluidity or the track coach to hand the girls' trophies to the "girls" is abuse. Any 'Yeah but...'s still need to legally separate the latter (and more) from the former. It's kinda sad that it's come to this but an "I don't care." in response to a violation of the NAP really does kinda void your libertarian card.
The government saying that a kid is incapable of making a life altering decision at 5 yo is far different than the government mandating the parents give their kids a medication.
Additionally, for it to be healthcare we have to demonstrate that the benefits outweigh the risks to a great degree. This hasn't been proven in the case of sex reassignment, especially in prepubescent children. In fact the evidence is extremely weak that there is any benefit to these procedures.
We keep coming back to the concept of rights, but are you saying that children have the same ability to understand their rights and the implications of utilizing those rights as an adult? If not, then you can only argue that the individual rights being infringed are the parents. To make this argument you must then make the argument that the parents have the right to make any and all decisions for their children, and government has no right to regulate this at all. So can the parent decide to murder their children after they are born? Can they choose to blind or paralyze their children? If not, then where is the line drawn? If parental rights can be regulated for some issues due to the possible and often known dangers to the child, and often irreversible damage down to them, why is sex reassignment different? Why is removing sex organs, or stopping a normal, healthy part of the physical and mental maturation using drugs okay? Drugs that can have numerous, negative lifelong impacts, and aren't approved for this use and we never designed for this use.
There's a huge difference between mandating a vaccine (that I'll note is not very effective for adults, let alone children) and prohibiting a hormone/hormone blocker because your kid has a mental illness.
I'm unsure how much more forcefully I could possibly reject trans "medical care".
Mutilating yourself because of your feelings is a mental illness. No different than if you called an anorexic "tubby".
probably
Nor preserve it. The family is none of the government's business, period.
Almost the entire breakdown of the nuclear family is the direct result of government interference, as you state. It may not have a role in promoting it, but it definitely shouldn't promote programs, policies or processes that destroy it.
Would you permit parents to give their 10 year old whiskey to drink regularly? Why or why not?
If an adult wants to lop their dick off, fine. A DOCTOR should not be helping a minor do so.
You refuse to answer questions directed at you, so clarifying your assertions is impossible. You ignore or misconstrued any counterpoints to your assertions. His judgement and characterization may be harsh, but not entirely demonstrably incorrect.
Leo's just upset that anyone would object to systematic abuse of children by deranged malevolent leftists like himself
Given the well documented and ample evidence that a stable family is beneficial to society, I would quibble with your absolutist assertion.
>are you saying that children have the same ability to understand their rights and the implications of utilizing those rights as an adult? If not, then you can only argue that the individual rights being infringed are the parents.
You are making an unwarranted leap from "children cannot fully exercise their rights" to "children have no rights, only their parents do." The fact that parents are delegated to help children exercise their rights does not mean that those rights do not still belong to the child. That would be like saying that if a company's board of directors appointed a CEO to direct the company, that the CEO was now the company owner and the board members have no rights. Parents do not have any rights over their children, they are merely custodians of the rights the child has.
In the cases you are citing where a parent murders or injures a child, the parent is violating the child's rights. In the case of puberty drugs or SRS, the parent is doing their best to make the decision they think their child would make if their child were fully grown. Someone who stops them is not violating the parents' rights, they are violating the child's rights, because the parent is exercising the child's rights in the way that they extrapolate the child would choose to exercise them if the child was an adult.
That is the key to limiting so called "parental rights." If a parent is making a good faith effort to exercise their child's rights in a way that they extrapolate the child would if they were an adult, that should not be limited. If the parent is trying to control or harm their child, it should be because then the parent is violating the rights that they are supposed to be custodians of. This explains Reason's opposition to school "book bans." In those cases a parent is trying to control their child by depriving them of access to reading material that is relevant to their interests.
A parent who considers hormone therapy for a child who shows signs of being trans is being a good custodian of the child's rights. It makes sense to delay puberty changes until the child is older and more able to decide if they want those changes to happen or not. SRS is more permanent and should like be saved for adults. But in general transgender health care is highly effective and shows remarkable results. Trans people who receive it are far happier on average than those who do not. I don't know where you got the idea it doesn't work, but you're dead wrong.
Remember the deaf parents who promoted bringing their children up into "deaf culture" when treatment for deafness became available?
That's a contract dispute.
Even if social "science" claims were falsifiable, your approval of their claims does not constitute a reason for government to tilt the scales. Family matters are none of the government's business.
Fuck off, slaver.
>All of them. You asked what business it is of mine and I answered. As long as my tax dollars are being taken to pay for or regulate it. I'm fine if my tax dollars don't get collected.
You don't get to control something because someone who stole from you used some of your money to pay for it. If someone mugs me and uses the money to buy athletic shoes that doesn't mean I get to vote on what the Nike corporation does. If I get shaken down by a mobster who I know likes to eat Chinese food that doesn't mean I get to control the behavior of every Chinese restaurant owner in the area.
Yeah. Most of this trans stuff (at least in older kids and adults) is just a distraction from some other underlying issue. It’s a feeling that, “if only I were someone else, all my problems would go away.”
Solve the underlying mental health problem and the interest in transitioning diminishes pretty rapidly. Problem is, if someone reports to a psychologist with a wish to transition, the psychologist is supposed to respond with unconditional support on peril of losing his license.
>We recognize that kids lack the ability to make informed decisions in just about all areas, but permanent sex reassignment is somehow different? Why?
The problem is that you are biased in favor of the status quo. Failing to get kids hormone treatment and forcing them to undergo the puberty of the wrong gender can be as permanent and life-changing as allowing them to.
>And, no parents don't always do what is best for their children.
That's right. There are many parents who fail to get their children hormone and other gender-affirming treatments they desperately need. Why are you assuming that the parents who agree with the kids are wrong and the ones who don't are right? Mainstream medical opinion seems to think that gender-affirming healthcare has high odds of success. Only a few cranks think it doesn't do anything.
How is promoting a society that is not hostile, even supportive of nuclear families, slavery? I am not talking monetary support, but rejecting the absolutism of your assertion. I fail to see how that is at all slavery.
Do we need laws to support nuclear families? Not in my opinion, however, we also don't need laws that inhibit the nuclear family either. Can the government say that nuclear families are a good thing more often than not? I am not sure how a statement like that is slavery. Or that, given the weight of the evidence, that a stable family is beneficial to society, more often than not, is slavery.
My biggest problem is your absolutism. Absolutism is almost always, in my opinion, likely to result in undesirable outcomes.
No, you fuck off, groomer.
But it's a contract based upon the idea of family, in which the government decided the outcome. This is the problem with absolutist arguments.
"The problem is that you are biased in favor of the status quo. Failing to get kids hormone treatment and forcing them to undergo the puberty of the wrong gender can be as permanent and life-changing as allowing them to."
This is among the stupidest, most malicious, predatory shit I've ever read.
The status quo is biology. It's reality. There is no such thing as being the "wrong gender".
There is no meaningful difference between a mandate and a prohibition, there is only what people have a right to do, and no right to do.
When you think you own people by right, sure. So fuck off and die, slaver.
It's just an unfathomably stupid argument. Not only does the 'behest' mean the person requesting the taking is culpable, it wasn't actually stolen but taken under the explicit pretext that I get a say in how it gets spent. In a sense, the mobster or mugger is more honest because they just say "Give me your money or I'll shoot you." without lying about how it's going to be spent and by whom and then imprisoning or shooting anyone who gives up the money and complains.
> it isn't about principles, but about an ideological alignment you're too chickenshit to admit you are beholden to.
I mean, it certainly does help that supporters of gender-affirming healthcare are pretty much 100% right about everything. All the evidence indicates that such treatments work really well. I'd feel some serious anguish if that wasn't the case. Luckily, gender-affirming care is highly effective and saves lives. Its opponents are raving crackpots.
But even if it wasn't we allow parents to refuse to give their children vaccines and blood transfusions. We allow them to try alternative medicine treatments like chelation therapy and colonics. How is this any different?
As for your prostitution hypothetical, there are obviously cases where parents allow children to make really poor decisions that should be prohibited. Child labor in general is illegal. You seem to think we can use this precedent to argue that the government should be allowed to ban parents from approving gender-affirming health care. But we can use this precedent for anything! A radical atheist could argue kids shouldn't be allowed to go to church even if they and their parents want to. A radical Islamist could argue that kids who want to go to church with their parents should have to go to a mosque instead. A raw foods advocate could use it to argue that kids shouldn't be allowed to eat grilled cheese sandwiches, even if their parents approve. Maybe prostitution/child labor is not the best hypothetical to apply to this issue.
I think it makes much more sense to use health care as an analogy. And in those cases, parents and children generally have carte blanche if they agree.
But does it make sense, from a medical stance, given the often irreversible damage that delaying puberty, especially when it is chronologically expected and necessary, can cause? And I don't see it as a huge leap. Kids have very limited rights, and the question becomes do the parents have the right, to make a life altering, often irreversible decision for their kids?
A birth defect that the majority of sufferers grow out of without any surgical change in their anatomy is definitively a mental disease.
But it is not "proper" anatomy, you waste of fucking air.
No, the evidence is not even close to showing it benefits the kids. Suicide rates aren't noticably decreased, treatment for depression isn't noticably decreased, nor is drug and alcohol abuse. In fact your entire first paragraph is scientifically illiterate. The evidence is far from settled. As a result, the rest of your assertions are unfounded as well. Additionally, there are many, and well documented adverse impacts from delaying puberty.
Transgender people kill themselves in droves even after transitioning. These procedures do not “save lives”.
“ The prevalence of suicide remains high among transgender persons irrespective of disclosing their transgender status to others and undergoing sex reassignment surgery.[8]”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/
>most malicious, predatory shit
How is it malicious and predatory to defend innocent children from scumbags who are trying to take their rights away?
>The status quo is biology.
Nonsense. People change biology all the time. If someone wants to get surgery to correct bunions, or a cleft palate, would you say that the status quo is "biology" and "reality" and they shouldn't?
>There is no such thing as being the "wrong gender"
Then why do hormone and surgical treatments make so many people happy and satisfied?
Like literally. He'll distort fact, ignore reality, and sell lies as truth probably right up until he hits the ground at 32 ft./s^2.
No idiot, I don't want you Latter Day Pharisees to succeed in making them miserable. And you are the one doing all the pushing.
>So, children can't consent to fuck (for some strange unarticulated reason we take as gospel) but can consent to change their gender because we just know that they know when they are all grown up they are going to be more comfortable fucking other people as the opposite sex.
I'll go ahead and articulate a reason for you. The massive, overwhelmingly huge majority of people who were child prostitutes say they regret it and wish they hadn't done it. By contrast, most people who change their gender do not regret it. So the people who just know that they are going to be more comfortable in as another gender are right more often than not.
Are you opposed to parents fixing the cleft palates of infants? The reason we allow that is that we know most people do not want to grow up with one of those. Even though infants can't talk and express that preference, we can infer it. We can do the same thing with trans health care.
Idiot, no one's gender can be changed. Ever.
That is why transitioning to match their gender is so beneficial. People develop an awareness of their gender usually by age 4.
" Go fuck yourself. To death, preferably. " <--- No, but you should stop lying and learn what's real.
Stop pretending that controlling kids and their parents who are doing their best to help them is morally unproblematic.
Getting cosmetic surgery isn't changing biology, it's changing physique, you low IQ child-molesting piece of shit. Chopping someone's dick off and giving them boobs doesn't make a man a woman. Pumping hormones into a kid doesn't change one chromosome from a Y to an X.
I really hope you're put down before you can victimize any more kids.
*NAMBLA approved this message.
Most of the people who change gender don't regret it? What percentage changed as children? This is a fairly new treatment, but even then, this assertion seems dubious. And what is a large percentage? How many have to regret it, considering until recently this wasn't even allowed in children and almost all transitioning occurred in adults, is it appropriate to say maybe doing this to children isn't the best option? These drugs were first approved in 1993, for early onset puberty, there use in gender dysphoria wasn't widely used until 2012 in the US, since that time, according the the FDA there have been 40,000 severe adverse reactions, with 6,370 deaths as a result of their use.
Actual data disputes your “massive huge overwhelmingly huge majority”, which actually wants to off itself even after reassignment.
“Suicide and Suicidal Behavior among Transgender Persons
Nov-Dec 2016
[…]
RESULTS
Prevalence of suicide and suicidal behavior among transgender persons
[…]
The prevalence of suicide remains high among transgender persons irrespective of disclosing their transgender status to others and undergoing sex reassignment surgery.[8]
[…]”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/
You will always be a man, and will never be a woman.
Keep in mind, this is the same mental case who argued this a few months ago:
Ghatanathoah
March.31.2021 at 5:30 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
I thought yesterday Reason was arguing that doctors had a right to repair children who were mutilated by nature. If you caught a disease that made you body morph into the wrong shape you'd want that fixed. You wouldn't want to wait years and years if it happened when you were a kid. You certainly wouldn't want people to take the diseases side and say that your disease-mutilated body was natural and you need to accept it.
I don't see how those facts change if the disease is an illness you are born with instead of an illness you catch.
This gooball actually thinks being born with a healthy, normal body is being "mutilated by nature" just because he wants to wear dresses and put on lipstick.
No.
“I don't see that it matters that the woman had a dong at one point earlier in her life”
Women don’t have dongs. Period. This short clip from Ted 2 explains what I’m saying:
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/880f64c5-3bac-4d1f-b9da-9e653cdbd1b4
Even TRIED being dead? See what all the fuss is about and get back to us.
Lot of tranny fanatics today. Is there a link from Drudge or something?
So true.
"There are no chicks with dicks, just dudes with tits"
You go first, murderous liar.
No, gender dysphoria is never "grown out of".
You are the idiot. Mandates and prohibitions are both the state sticking a gun in your face. The aren't morally different.
But you are the one talking about fucking with people's kids. I hope you get what's coming to you so I know about it.
That's what every transphobic bigot here is doing, ignoring facts.
Wrong again. This is another baseless assertion that flies in the face of documented evidence to the contrary.
No, gender dysphoria is never "grown out of".
People who claim to have it claim to be cured. Your statement is false unless you can prove that A) people who claim to have gender dysphoria don't actually have it or B) people who claim to have had gender dysphoria and now don't are lying. Either way you choose, don't come back without conclusive proof of your celestial teapot. Feel free to die in the pursuit.
Making an assertion without evidence is still just an assertion not fact.
How is normal development not "proper anatomy".
LOL
Psycho.
The data recording what’s real says transgender people have major psychological problems, as indicated by all the suicide.
People who claim to have it claim to be cured.
Sorry claim to be cured without surgical or pharmacological treatment. Moreover, people who've had surgical and/or pharmacological treatment assert it didn't cure them and that, if they have been cured, it was through internal dialogue, not surgical/pharmacological treatment.
But, again, feel free to tell them they're wrong until it kills you.
You want to add hormones and scalpels to a developing child’s’ diet, which is as much fucking as can be fucked.
You are motivated, and wrong.
Keep your hands off of the children.