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Mass Shootings

Are the Parents of the Michigan School Shooter Guilty of Involuntary Manslaughter?

The charge requires proof that James and Jennifer Crumbley knew their son posed a threat and could have prevented the attack through "ordinary care."

Jacob Sullum | 12.15.2021 4:15 PM

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James-and-Jennifer-Crumbley-Oakland-County-Sheriff-cropped | Oakland County Sheriff's Office
James and Jennifer Crumbley (Oakland County Sheriff's Office)

James and Jennifer Crumbley, the parents of the teenager charged with fatally shooting four students and injuring seven others at Oxford High School in Michigan last month, appeared in court yesterday for a probable cause conference. The Crumbleys, who bought their 15-year-old son, Ethan, the handgun he allegedly used in the deadly attack, each face four involuntary manslaughter charges—a highly unusual attempt to hold parents criminally responsible for a school shooting. Although prosecutors cite substantial evidence indicating that the defendants were negligent, it is not at all clear that their conduct satisfies the elements of involuntary manslaughter. The charges, which are punishable by up to 15 years in prison, look like an attempt to prosecute the couple for actions that are not crimes under Michigan law.

Four days before the November 30 shooting, according to Oakland County Prosecuting Attorney Karen McDonald, James Crumbley took his son to Acme Shooting Goods in Oxford, where he bought the teenager a 9-mm SIG Sauer SP 2022 pistol as an early Christmas gift. In a social media post accompanied by "an emoji with hearts," Ethan said, "Just got my new beauty today. SIG Sauer 9 mm. Any questions I will answer."

The day before the shooting, a teacher saw Ethan using his phone to search online for ammunition during class. At a meeting that day, Ethan told school officials that his family enjoyed shooting sports, which explained the browsing that had alarmed the teacher. The school tried unsuccessfully to contact Jennifer Crumbley, who later sent her son a text that said, "LOL I'm not mad at you. You have to learn not to get caught."

The day of the shooting, McDonald says, a teacher saw "a note on Ethan's desk" that included "a drawing of a semiautomatic handgun, pointing at the words: 'The thoughts won't stop. Help me.'" There was also "a drawing of a bullet, with the following words above that bullet: 'Blood everywhere.'" In between was "a drawing of a person who appears to have been shot twice and [is] bleeding," and "below that figure is a drawing of a laughing emoji." Ethan also had written "my life is useless" and "the world is dead."

That discovery prompted a second meeting, this time including Ethan's parents. Ethan claimed he was developing a video game and the picture was part of that process. According to school officials, his parents resisted their demand that he receive counseling within 48 hours and refused to take him home for the rest of the day. "Both James and Jennifer Crumbley failed to ask their son if he had his gun with him or where his gun was located and failed to inspect his backpack for the presence of the gun, which he had with him," McDonald says.

The school sent Ethan back to class, and the shooting happened shortly afterward. School officials said that Ethan had no prior record of disciplinary problems, that his "behavior, responses and demeanor" did not suggest he posed a threat, and that they did not know he had unsupervised access to a handgun. According to McDonald, the gun was "stored unlocked in a drawer in James and Jennifer's bedroom." Shannon Smith, one of the Crumbleys' defense attorneys, contested that point when they pleaded not guilty on December 4, saying the gun was locked. "When the prosecution is stating that this child had free access to a gun," Smith told District Court Judge Julie Nicholson, "that is just absolutely not true."

After "news of the active shooter at Oxford High School had been made public," McDonald says, Jennifer Crumbley texted her son again, saying, "Ethan, don't do it." Fifteen minutes later, "James Crumbley called 911, reporting that a gun was missing from his house, and he believed his son may be the shooter."

Unsurprisingly, the school faced intense criticism for letting Ethan Crumbley go back to class. Last week attorney Geoffrey Fieger, who plans to sue the school district for $100 million in federal court, said administrators "allowed the deranged, homicidal student to return to class with a gun in his backpack, with over 30 rounds of ammo in his backpack, when they knew he was a homicidal threat." But prosecutors argue that Ethan Crumbley's parents, who remain in jail after a judge set their bonds at $500,000 each, were even better positioned to prevent the shooting and that their failure to do so justifies charging them with involuntary manslaughter.

Under Michigan law, a defendant is guilty of involuntary manslaughter when he unintentionally causes someone's death through "gross negligence." According to Michigan's model jury instructions, "Gross negligence means more than carelessness. It means willfully disregarding the results to others that might follow from an act or failure to act."

The prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that "the defendant knew of the danger to another," meaning he "knew there was a situation that required [him] to take ordinary care to avoid injuring another"; that "the defendant could have avoided injuring another by using ordinary care"; and that "the defendant failed to use ordinary care to prevent injuring another when, to a reasonable person, it must have been apparent that the result was likely to be serious injury."

James and Jennifer Crumbley surely will contest the allegation that they "knew of the danger to another," an essential element of the crime. "What happened at Oxford High School may have been foreseeable in some abstract sense," Andrew McCarthy notes at National Review, "but it was certainly not foreseen in concrete reality." Prosecutors will argue that Jennifer Crumbley's text to her son and James Crumbley's 911 call after the shooting started suggest they knew their son was dangerous. But their suspicion once the attack began—in light of what had happened at the school meeting earlier that day and, in the father's case, his discovery that the gun was missing—is not the same as recognizing the threat in advance and "willfully disregarding" it.

Smith and Mariell Lehman, another attorney representing James and Jennifer Crumbley, say the story presented by McDonald is highly misleading. "The prosecution has very much cherry-picked and slanted specific facts to further their narrative," they said in a statement to NPR. "We intend to fight this case in the courtroom and not in the court of public opinion. We know that in the end the entire story and truth will prevail."

As to whether the Crumbleys exercised "ordinary care," most people probably would agree that they did not. McDonald says she wants to "send the message that gun owners have a responsibility" and that "when they fail to uphold that responsibility, there are serious and criminal consequences."

But while 16 states have laws authorizing prosecution of adults who intentionally or carelessly give minors unsupervised access to guns, Michigan is not one of them. The state legislature has repeatedly declined to enact such a "child access prevention" (CAP) law. Nor does the state require "secure storage" of firearms (meaning that they are kept locked, unloaded, and separate from ammunition), as six states, the District of Columbia, and several cities do.

McCarthy, a former federal prosecutor, concedes that James and Jennifer Crumbley showed "appalling judgment" and "appear to have been utterly irresponsible." But he argues that prosecutors are using the involuntary manslaughter charges in place of charges that Michigan has not authorized.

Since Michigan legislators "refused to criminalize the conduct in which the Crumbley parents engaged," McCarthy says, prosecutors are "attempting in the heat of the moment to criminalize the conduct themselves." While the couple "may be looking at significant civil liability, and deservedly so," he writes, that does not mean they are guilty of a crime, "much less make them responsible for homicide—a much more serious crime, even in the form of involuntary manslaughter, than the CAP crime that Michigan has refused to codify."

George Washington University law professor Jonathan Turley likewise is skeptical that the prosecution can prove its case. "I have not seen the evidence that would make a compelling case to say that the parents were complicit criminally as opposed to being negligent," he said on Twitter. "The question is whether there is actual knowledge or complicity by the parents as opposed to negligence. Otherwise, charges in this case could present strong grounds for challenge."

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Jacob Sullum is a senior editor at Reason.

Mass ShootingsPublic schoolsCriminal JusticeGun ControlMichigan
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  1. Don't look at me!   4 years ago

    Nope. He did it.

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  2. Vernon Depner   4 years ago

    Not seeing it. I would be in favor of laws holding firearms owners responsible when they carelessly allow their weapons to be used in crimes, but Michigan has no such law.

    1. GreenBeanMarine   4 years ago

      These laws would make about as much sense as laws holding car owners responsible if their cars are stolen and used in crimes. Sure, you can keep your gun in a safe to prevent theft, but that makes it sort of useless for home defense.

      1. Vernon Depner   4 years ago

        Car owners CAN be held liable if they carelessly allow their vehicles to be used in a crime, at least in my state. The crime is called "wrongful entrustment".

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        2. Craig Johnston   4 years ago

          Wrongful entrustment applies when you entrust your vehicle to another person, not to when it is stolen.

          1. Vernon Depner   4 years ago

            It can also apply when you carelessly allow it to be stolen by someone you know shouldn't have access to it.

            If we applied the "wrongful entrustment" concept to firearms, we could allow an exception for cases where the gun was reported stolen immediately.

      2. WuzYoungOnceToo   4 years ago

        These laws would make about as much sense as laws holding car owners responsible if their cars are stolen and used in crimes.

        That's a piss-poor analogy. There's a huge difference between something being unexpectedly stolen by some random stranger vs. not taking steps to prevent it from being taken by someone in your own home whom you have reason to believe might use it to commit a violent criminal act.

        1. jimc5499   4 years ago

          A few years ago Pittsburgh tried to pass a law that would hold gun store and gun owners liable if their weapon or weapons were stolen. The law made no exception for the thief or thieves breaking into locked storage areas. While the law was being debated a group of thieves went through a brick wall and cut into a vault to steal several weapons from a gun store. The law quietly disappeared.

    2. Hank Phillips   4 years ago

      All Michigan needs is one Kristallnacht fanatic eager to sue. In no time at all we'll have the Second Amendment--with Individual Rights swaddled in her trembling arms--leaping from ice-flow to ice-flow to escape the baying mob. The Bill of Rights, at least in Michigan, is a small price to pay for the privilege of protecting Texas rednecks with green teeth eager to bully doctors and pregnant women.

      1. The Jeffersonian   4 years ago

        Wow, you get a Bingo!

        Nazi reference
        Denigrate 2nd Amendment
        Insult Texans
        Abortion reference
        Denigrate the Bill of Rights

        You win a fresh cup of soy.

  3. Chumby   4 years ago

    Dunno the MI law. In these woods, it is a crime to allow a minor unauthorized access to a firearm.

    Their son murdered four people. Parents of the deceased will take anything they have. They have no good future ahead. Lock em up. Let em go. It won’t bring anyone back or make anyone feel like there was justice.

    1. mad.casual   4 years ago

      In these woods, it is a crime to allow a minor unauthorized access to a firearm.

      Even then, the crime is almost certainly along the lines of negligence, not manslaughter. Kinda hard to hold someone accountable for a priori manslaughter when there is no slaughter.

      1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

        I haven't really followed this case closely, but from the little tidbits I'm getting from the establishment media, is that if the media can argue that they're guilty of manslaughter, the press is going to have a difficult time maintaining that an SUV killed a bunch of people in Waukesha. They're going to have to suggest that the person behind the wheel might be at least partly to blame.

        1. A Cynical Asshole   4 years ago

          if the media can argue that they're guilty of manslaughter, the press is going to have a difficult time maintaining that an SUV killed a bunch of people in Waukesha

          Never underestimate the media's ability to just power through levels of cognitive dissonance that would drive a normal person insane.

          1. mad.casual   4 years ago

            "Aren't the SUV driver's parents already dead? Why would we try to convict them of manslaughter?"

            1. MatthewSlyfield   4 years ago

              His mother at least is still alive.

              Brooks' mother Dawn Woods released a statement earlier Wednesday to numerous media outlets criticizing the criminal justice system for failing her son.

              She's the one who posted his (ridiculously low) bail on the charges he was facing in Milwaukee.

              Unfortunately Wisconsin law does not allow for someone to be held without bail. I would be against that sort of thing in most cases, but in this case, his priors include bail jumping charges.

        2. JesseAz   4 years ago

          What SUV? What Parade? Old news!!

          1. Don't look at me!   4 years ago

            Local story.

        3. wreckinball   4 years ago

          SUV driver was black. Therefore its no big deal.

        4. WuzYoungOnceToo   4 years ago

          is that if the media can argue that they're guilty of manslaughter, the press is going to have a difficult time maintaining that an SUV killed a bunch of people in Waukesha. They're going to have to suggest that the person behind the wheel might be at least partly to blame.

          So you're arguing that...

          1) The asshole in Waukesha was a minor?
          2) The asshole in Waukesha was allowed access to his parents' vehicle even though they had reason to believe he would be dangerous with it?
          3) It's not possible to hold both a minor who committed a crime AND his parents responsible in some way (depending on the circumstances)?

          1. mad.casual   4 years ago

            I tip my hat to your superior disingenuous sophist contortion skills.

      2. Chumby   4 years ago

        IANAL. Where I used to live there was this thing called contributory negligence. Lawyers here may be able to discuss how that could dovetail into a manslaughter charge. And if MI has such a law.

        1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

          iAnal is the new Christmas Gift craze coming out of Silicon Valley.

          1. Chumby   4 years ago

            Lovens in the air…

          2. Don't look at me!   4 years ago

            Really?

            Tony

          3. mad.casual   4 years ago

            Can I pay extra so that my data is unprotected while sitting on their servers?

  4. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

    No. Criminal negligence? Maybe.

    1. MatthewSlyfield   4 years ago

      What about accessory to their son's crimes?

      1. mad.casual   4 years ago

        Not in evidence. No knowledge of intent to commit a crime. No apparent knowledge of transfer.

        Even the Waffle House shooter's Dad, who was clearly more knowingly breaking both State and Federal laws is having trouble being convicted because the FBI and State of IL can't stop stepping on each other's dicks.

        1. mad.casual   4 years ago

          Bonus in case you were worried about the superciliousness of COVID fanatics:

          PEKIN, Ill. (WMBD) — The father of the man accused of opening fire and killing four people at a Waffle House in 2018 appeared in court Friday, and his attorney argued there is no way to properly charge him.

          At the Tazewell County Courthouse, Jeffrey Reinking’s attorney said the bill of indictment was too vague to properly charge him for unlawful delivery of a firearm. His attorney, Joel Brown, said the indictment reads Reinking “gave” his son Travis the gun, which is owned by Travis, and that is not specific enough.

          The defense asked the court to accept his motion to dismiss. However, Tazewell County state’s attorney Stu Umholtz and the state’s attorney general Kwame Raoul’s office asked the court not to dismiss it. Umholtz’s office said he believes Reinking’s arguments were “repetitive.”

          Raoul’s office said Brown is focusing on the word “give,” when it is common knowledge to understand what the word means. The AG’s office also said there is a rule that when you get a FOID card, and if you get admitted into a mental institution, the card is no longer eligible.

          “Can you not hand a gun to its owner because they went into a mental institution? It’s absurdity,” Brown said.

          Reinking was charged in March 2019 with the class 4 felony for knowingly giving a Bushmaster AR-15 to his son between Nov. 12-30, 2017. Travis was a patient at Methodist Medical Center of Illinois – Mental Health Unit within the last five years, making the delivery a violation.

          Travis’s FOID card was revoked in August 2017 when he moved to Colorado.

          In December 2018, Jeffrey confirmed he gave his son access to guns, even though Tazewell County police advised him to keep him away from them.

          Travis is on trial for the Nashville Waffle House shooting that left four people dead in April 2018. The gun was determined to be a Bushmaster AR-15 rifle.

          Judge Katherine Gorman is taking it under advisement and said she will make a written order in the next few weeks. A review has been set for July 9 at 9 a.m. If convicted, Jeffrey could be sentenced to probation, or 1-3 years in prison. The court may also assess a $25,000 fine.

          In January of this year, Tennessee prosecutors said they would not seek a death penalty for Travis, who plead not guilty in February 2019. He is facing 17 felony charges.

          Those who were at the courthouse for Reinking on Friday did not wear face masks or practice social distancing. Gorman put that on the record of the hearing. She told them that next time there will not be enough space for all of them and many of them will likely be turned away.

  5. Dillinger   4 years ago

    >>>prosecutors are "attempting in the heat of the moment to criminalize the conduct themselves."

    love the virtuous prosecutors "we're gonna convict some white people somewhere goddammit!"

  6. A Cynical Asshole   4 years ago

    This is all about setting the precedent that if you own a gun and someone else uses it to commit a crime, you'll be held criminally liable. It doesn't even really have anything to do with these specific people, this is about making owning a gun untenable from a liability perspective.

    1. GreenBeanMarine   4 years ago

      Exactly. The same thing could happen with cars or just about anything else. Progressives are against the 2nd amendment for one reason and one reason only, they dont want any resistance when they engage in their complete authoritarian take over, which is allready in progress as we speek.

      1. not guilty   4 years ago

        How is the Second Amendment implicated here? Please be specific.

        1. jimc5499   4 years ago

          It's easy. At what age are you covered by the Constitution? Courts have determined that school students have the right to free speech. That means that they have rights that are protected by the Constitution. If you have one "Right" you should have the rest of them as well. That kind of throws a wrench into the whole not having a gun until a certain age law thing. I'm NOT saying that we should give guns to children. I'm asking at what age does someone have the "Rights" guaranteed to them by the Constitution?

    2. Dominionator   4 years ago

      Untenable when the gun is illegally owned (federal law prohibits handgun ownership by minors) as a result of the father buying the gun as a gift (federal law prohibits purchasing a firearm for someone else who is not authorized to possess a firearm).

      1. rudehost   4 years ago

        I don’t think you will be able to hang a case on that thread. The parents had the gun in their possession. It seems pretty easy to argue this is no different than parents buying their 15 year old a car for Christmas that they keep in the garage, and take out with him when he is practicing.

        1. BikeRider   4 years ago

          This ^^. When my son finished hunter safety training, we "bought him" a shot gun but it wasn't really his any more than his first car was his. Both were registered in my name and the gun was stored in my closet.

          Criminalizing this case based on "it was a Christmas present for the kid" is disingenuous. These people don't want anyone to own any gun so they'll find any crack they can to punish someone for owning one.

      2. Jerry B.   4 years ago

        I thought that too, but looking at 18 USC 922 (d), providing a firearm to someone underage is not listed. It's more felons, illegal aliens, people with restraining orders, dishonorably discharged military, etc.

      3. jimc5499   4 years ago

        I was given a .22 rifle for my 5th birthday. I didn't "own" it, but it was considered to be mine. I was shooting a pistol when I was 12. Again, I didn't "own" it, but, it was mine. The pistol was registered to the Father, therefore he was the "owner". Michigan's law allowed the kid to "possess" the pistol under adult supervision. Michigan has no requirement that the weapon be "locked up". The school allowed the kid to return to class, without checking his backpack or locker. The Prosecutor is reaching here.

      4. CaveMan   4 years ago

        Federal law prohibits selling a hangun to a person under 21. Possession is up to state law.

        Federal law excludes gifts from the straw purchase laws.

    3. Hank Phillips   4 years ago

      Yep. That and all manner of birth control too, once Texas-style bounty-hunting snitch-and-sue practices take root elsewhere.

  7. not guilty   4 years ago

    The Crumbleys´ parenting decisions are atrocious, but I have concerns about whether any Michigan statute gives fair warning that their conduct constitutes any grade of homicide. If they gave the boy a handgun, knowing what he planned to do with it, they would be culpable as accessories before the fact to premeditated murder, so I doubt that that is the prosecution´s theory here. I see a due process/fair warning issue lurking.

    1. Dominionator   4 years ago

      How about the negligence involved with violating federal law by purchasing a handgun for a minor who was not legally able to own said handgun?

      1. jimc5499   4 years ago

        They didn't. The Father is the legal owner of the handgun.

  8. A Cynical Asshole   4 years ago

    Oakland County Prosecuting Attorney Karen McDonald

    Didn't realize the prosecutor in this case was literally a Karen until now...

  9. JesseAz   4 years ago

    Are they going to charge school administrators the same as they apparently hid some violent pictures and such from what I understand. Even had a meeting that day regarding concerns.

    Manslaughter is way overkill.

    1. Minadin   4 years ago

      ""Both James and Jennifer Crumbley failed to ask their son if he had his gun with him or where his gun was located and failed to inspect his backpack for the presence of the gun, which he had with him," McDonald says.

      The school sent Ethan back to class, and the shooting happened shortly afterward. School officials said that Ethan had no prior record of disciplinary problems, that his "behavior, responses and demeanor" did not suggest he posed a threat"

      The school officials also didn't search his backpack, apparently, or react much differently than the parents to any of the warning signs that the parents are accused of ignoring.

  10. justme   4 years ago

    what parenting decisions were so awful? many, many households in america have firearms where the kids are allowed access. when i grew up we always had firearms present and the kids shot them when we went camping. we learned gun safety and how/when to use a firearm. and i never murdered anyone. i think all kids should learn gun safety and how to use a firearm. the responsibility here lies with the boy -- he killed those people, not the parents.

    1. not guilty   4 years ago

      Ah, yes. The gun is an object of religious veneration which can do no wrong, even when it demands ritual child sacrifice. https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2012/12/15/our-moloch/

      1. MatthewSlyfield   4 years ago

        The gun is an inanimate object. It isn't capable of doing anything, right or wrong.

      2. barfman2525   4 years ago

        *barf*

      3. DesigNate   4 years ago

        Sarcasm?

      4. justme   4 years ago

        it's so amazing that my many firearms have never jumped up off the table and killed anyone.

      5. ravenshrike   4 years ago

        Ah yes, the return of deodandism in full. I thought this was a libertarian site?

    2. Dominionator   4 years ago

      How about the decision to violate federal law by purchasing a handgun for someone not authorized to possess a handgun - a minor?

      1. rudehost   4 years ago

        You should post this 3 more times in case anyone missed the others.

      2. Jerry B.   4 years ago

        Cite, please.

      3. jimc5499   4 years ago

        How about YOU learning the Law. The Father was the registered owner of the gun. No Federal laws were broken.

        1. NOYB2   4 years ago

          The father has stated that the gun was a gift for his son.

          Either way, as the registered owner who has not reported the gun stolen, he bears responsibility for what is done with that gun.

          1. CaveMan   4 years ago

            Before the shooting did the father have any indicating action the pistol had been stolen?

        2. Zeb   4 years ago

          Does Michigan have registered owners of guns?

          1. justme   4 years ago

            yes. michigan has horrible firearms laws and requires a license to purchase a pistol and the pistol does get registered. these lawsare of course unconstitutional, but the leftists don't care.

  11. GreenBeanMarine   4 years ago

    This headline would be more apropriate if a applied to parents of thugs in the streets urban centers where mass shootings are a daily occurance. School shootings are extremely rare relatively speeking, so most parents wouldnt see something like this coming.

    1. JesseAz   4 years ago

      Those deaths are Indiana's fault.

    2. Michael Ejercito   4 years ago

      I auspect it has, many times, and McDonald is counting on those precedents.

  12. Rich   4 years ago

    Does charging Ethan as an adult change any of this stuff?

    1. not guilty   4 years ago

      No.

  13. Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland   4 years ago

    A few clingers and misfits might get lathered by this (or, perhaps more accurate, try to lather others), but I doubt anyone who graduated from a reputable law school would have much difficulty navigating or approving this prosecution, at least with respect to reported circumstances.

    It would be difficult for me to envision how our legal system could impose adequately severe consequences on these slack-jawed parents and their disgusting child. People attempting to defend the parents seem profoundly misguided and/or lousy Americans.

    1. justme   4 years ago

      the parents violated no law. zero. none. you're just one of those ignorant leftists who thinks all firearms should be illegal. the parents did nothing wrong. the personal responsibility lies with the boy. period.

      1. Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland   4 years ago

        Is that a Regent or Liberty law degree talking; something you think you remember from a discount homeschooling outline your mother handed to you between drags of her cigarette and swallows of her noontime beers; or what you heard on Fox News last night?

        In any event, get an education. Or talk with a real lawyer. I suspect you could find one, although you might need to drive 40 miles or so from those can't-keep-up backwaters.

        1. Grifhunter   4 years ago

          "We must also address the District’s requirement (as
          applied to respondent’s handgun) that firearms in the
          home be rendered and kept inoperable at all times. This
          makes it impossible for citizens to use them for the core
          lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitu-
          tional. " DC v Heller, pg. 58 (disposing of the District of Columbia's trigger lock requirement)

        2. justme   4 years ago

          that's a lot of bluster from a dumbass libtard. since you're so confident that the parents violated the law then please tell us which laws were violated and why. you must know.

          1. Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland   4 years ago

            When these two slack-jawed clingers are in prison after being convicted of multiple manslaughters, you can be their pen pal.

        3. Sevo   4 years ago

          In any event, fuck off and die, asshole bigot.

      2. Dominionator   4 years ago

        And what about the federal law that makes it a crime to knowingly purchase a firearm for another person who the purchaser knows is not legally able to own a firearm? In this case, a minor is prohibited from owning a handgun yet the father bought one for him as a gift.

        1. justme   4 years ago

          clearly the boy was not the legal owner. the dad just purchased the pistol for the son to use. this is done by millions of families every year. seems that you didn't have firearms at home as a boy, but many, many do. and there's nothing wrong with it either.

        2. Zeb   4 years ago

          He's a minor, he doesn't own anything independently of his parents.

      3. jimc5499   4 years ago

        Exactly. If they want to charge the Parents, then the boy should be tried as a juvenile.

        1. justme   4 years ago

          THIS ^^. the state is charging the son as an adult so simple logic dictates that he's completely responsible. can't have it both ways.

    2. not guilty   4 years ago

      If Michigan had a statute requiring safe storage of firearms or penalizing furnishing a gun to minors, I would likely agree with you. As it is here, however, manslaughter is an undefined term. http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(5vv31vsqom51s3bdn1zoyfu3))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-321
      I have my doubts as to whether the fair warning component of due process guaranties is met here. That having been said, the parents´ conduct is reprehensible.

      1. Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland   4 years ago

        I have read persuasive recounting of Michigan law (court decisions, statutes, model jury instructions) that seem more than adequate to cook the Crumbley's gooses -- all of them.

        Good people should hope the sentences are consecutive rather than concurrent.

        1. The Team Struggling   4 years ago

          And the reputable law school that you attended which legitimates your legal conclusion was...?

        2. Michael Ejercito   4 years ago

          Here is a hint.

          Coloring books are not law books.

        3. Jerry B.   4 years ago

          Then you can provide cites. Right?

        4. Sevo   4 years ago

          Bigoted assholes should fuck off and die.

    3. Sevo   4 years ago

      A single asshole bigot should fuck off and die.

  14. ravenshrike   4 years ago

    "As to whether the Crumbleys exercised "ordinary care," most people probably would agree that they did not."

    And you came to this conclusion how exactly? Do you know how the gun was stored? Because according to the parent's attorney it was in fact locked up(whether in a locked room/cabinet/drawer is unclear). As for not pulling their son out of school if the school had ACTUALLY been worried about any danger he posed to others they could have either A)had the school resource officer go through his bags and locker right there in front of his parents or B)told his parents they were suspending him for 48 hours and they should take him home, but either way he was not welcome on school grounds and would be escorted off the property.

    That they did neither of those things tells me they weren't particularly worried about it, and the parents probably figured the same thing. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if at the meeting with the parents the parents asked them why they hadn't suspended him or searched his bag and the answer was somewhere along the lines of they didn't think it that urgent. At which point the parents were like okay, then we're not pulling him out of school or searching his bag either. But then I shouldn't be that surprised at the logical fallacies on display in the article, after all this is a Sullum Special.

    1. NOYB2   4 years ago

      And why shouldn't parents be held responsible, at least to some degree, for the actions of their underage children?

      1. DesigNate   4 years ago

        Because they didn’t commit the crime?

        1. NOYB2   4 years ago

          They failed in their duty to supervise their underage children. That’s what they should be held responsible for.

          1. Zeb   4 years ago

            That seems like an unreasonable standard. No parents supervise their teenage children that closely. Well, some probably do, but they are definitely the outliers.

      2. CaveMan   4 years ago

        Because they are charging the son as an adult.

      3. ravenshrike   4 years ago

        Because A) they are charging the son as an adult and B) this was not obvious at all except in retrospect, because if it had been OBVIOUS then the school would have involved a school resource officer to frisk him and search his belongings or just flat out suspended him instead of letting him go back to class.

    2. Dominionator   4 years ago

      Does it really matter if the nightstand was locked? First off, maybe the son had ready access to the key. But more importantly, the mother has admitted that the gun belonged to the son as a gift.

      1. jimc5499   4 years ago

        The gun was registered to the Father. Michigan has no law requiring that a firearm be locked up. Take a look at YouTube, I can find a way to defeat almost any lock in five minutes. This was a 15 year old. If it was an 8 or 9 year old, then I could see it.
        What gets me is that if he would have used a rifle or shotgun, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's like the whole thing about the Baldwin shooting. In almost any other case, we are looking at an industrial accident, but, because a firearm is involved people are losing their minds over it.

        1. NOYB2   4 years ago

          The son was underage, and the parents were responsible for supervising him. Furthermore, as a gun owner, you have responsibility to protect it against theft.

          1. Zeb   4 years ago

            How far does that responsibility go? Is it absolute? If it gets stolen are they responsible for what happens then no matter how securely they had it stored?

      2. ravenshrike   4 years ago

        It does when one of the prosecutors' office explicitly stated otherwise in a press conference, yes.

  15. ravenshrike   4 years ago

    It should also be noted that this is the same prosecutor that announced the charges PRIOR to a warrant for arrest, and then publicly stated the Crumbleys were on the run from the law when the DAY before there had been 4 calls to the prosecutors office from the Crumbleys attorney asking where the prosecutors office wanted the Crumbleys to come in. I repeat, the prosecutor announced manslaughter charges before even getting a warrant for arrest, let alone actually arresting the Crumbleys.

  16. poppavein   4 years ago

    OMG, due to ammo shortages and high prices, *I* also have searched for ammo on the Internet!
    How shameful.

    1. MatthewSlyfield   4 years ago

      Did you do it at work? At school during class time?

  17. F. Uzall   4 years ago

    I am waiting for the Michigan AG to bring these same charges against the gangbanger parents. The sound of Ben Crump screeching over this will be like a Mozart symphony

    1. Grifhunter   4 years ago

      Exactly. Lets go back over every selfie and internet video posted by inner city youth posing with a gun, and arrest the parent(s).

  18. Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland   4 years ago

    The Crumbleys do not appear to be people prepared for a prison stretch.

    That will make their sentencing more enjoyable. Will they cry, or just tremble?

  19. NOYB2   4 years ago

    Parents should be held responsible when their underage children commit crimes; they clearly neglected their parental duties.

    Parents should also be held responsible in some cases when their underage children become victims of crimes, again, for the same reason.

    1. justme   4 years ago

      you're clearly not a parent or if you are then you're clueless. teenage young men have independent minds and disobey their parents regardless of their upbringing. i'm sure you did not obey your parents perfectly. you can be a perfect parent and have a sociopath as a child. it has nothing to do with your parenting. some people are born evil and will do evil things regardless of parenting.

  20. d   4 years ago

    Nice Blog, keep it up for more information like this. accounting training

  21. Dominionator   4 years ago

    The locked or unlocked nightstand is a red herring. The mother and son have clearly stated the handgun was purchased as a gift for the son. This means that the father broke federal law when he purchase the handgun because the form he had to fill out required him to certify the purchase was for himself and not another person. So it seems there are grounds for negligence. With all that the parents knew about their son on that day and maybe previously, there were reasonable grounds to believe he was a danger, especially since the parents knew he owned a handgun. The parents must be held accountable.

    1. Jerry B.   4 years ago

      Then you can cite that Federal law.

    2. Iridium   4 years ago

      Things that you "own" generally aren't locked in your parent's bedroom, only to be used with their permission.

      The gift was that his parents were getting a gun that he could borrow. What do you think would happen, even once he turned 18, if his parents didn't give him "his" gun? Absolutely nothing. Not a court in the land would tell the parents to turn over the "gift". So, given that he had no legal right to it, it is really impossible to call him the owner.

  22. raspberrydinners   4 years ago

    "Shannon Smith, one of the Crumbleys' defense attorneys, contested that point when they pleaded not guilty on December 4, saying the gun was locked. "When the prosecution is stating that this child had free access to a gun," Smith told District Court Judge Julie Nicholson, "that is just absolutely not true.""

    I have to think it's a bit hard to trust people who have been so negligent up to that point and who were basically fleeing and leaving their son hung out to dry.

    I have to think the prosecution should be able to prove negligence. And I think it goes without saying they'll do the same for the school officials as well. We read about kids being suspended for doing finger guns and other dumb things but this didn't even warrant an immediate suspension? Failures all around.

    1. Moderation4ever   4 years ago

      Agree here that this is a total CF. Parent should criminally prosecuted and school officials should be held liable.

    2. ravenshrike   4 years ago

      Riiight, you trust the parents that ran because of a prosecution that A)publicly announced manslaughter charges before even getting a warrant for arrest and B) later made another public statement about the parents fleeing arrest when in fact their lawyer had left 4 messages the day before with the prosecutors office who had not bothered to return any of the calls asking where they wanted the Crumbleys to show up.

  23. Hank Phillips   4 years ago

    I’ll bet you $5 this sort of prosecution won’t be “highly unusual” for long, thanks to the Texas branch of God’s Own Prosecutors.

  24. Moderation4ever   4 years ago

    There is no required training to be a parent. No license issued for parenting. Anyone can be a parent. Many do an outstanding job and most a good job. These parents were bad and not just for their son, but for many others. I don't know if they are criminally liable and that remains to be seen.

    I hope we can agree that they are parenting failures. People need to see this story and know that not how to raise your kid.

    1. justme   4 years ago

      what were their parenting failures? with regard to the pistol these parents did nothing that many, many, many other parents do every year. please provide an enumeration.

      1. Moderation4ever   4 years ago

        Let's start with buying a 15-year-old a pistol. Do you really thing that many, many, many parents do that? We are not talking here about buying a kid a hunting rifle or a shotgun, we are talking about a short barrel gun. I really don't think most parents do this.

        1. justme   4 years ago

          i see nothing wrong with a 15 year old shooting a pistol. in fact it's a good things. kids need to know how a pistol works, how to load/unload and how to fire it. my family owned pistols and i used them as a kid, and so do many other families. you're making a correlation that is ridiculous. you assume that because a boy has access to a pistol that he'll necessarily go on a shooting rampage. if this kid had access to hunting rifle instead of a pistol he would have done the exact same thing.

          1. DesigNate   4 years ago

            It’s because M4E, like Tony and it’s progressive brethren, is projecting their sociopathy on to young males with guns.

            It doesn’t matter that the overwhelming majority of young males will never commit an act of violence against another person, much less with a gun. It only matters that they could.

          2. Moderation4ever   4 years ago

            Did your family buy you a pistol or were you trained on an adult's weapon under supervision? As I noted I think you are incorrect in assuming that many many parent buy there 15-year-old a short barrel gun. These parents bought him the gun leading him to the assumption it was his to handle as he wanted.

    2. NOYB2   4 years ago

      Whether there is required training or not is irrelevant. Parents have a duty to supervise their underage kids adequately, and a responsibility for damages caused by the kid, as well as hat that comes to the kid.

      1. justme   4 years ago

        the parents claim the pistol was stored locked up. looks like they did a pretty good job. also note that in michigan you are not required to lock your firearms. so according to law they did nothing wrong.

    3. Truthteller1   4 years ago

      You are a symptom of the real problem.

  25. Truthteller1   4 years ago

    More mob justice. Its overreach and will not withstand a legitimate trial.

    1. justme   4 years ago

      exactly. it will turn out just like the rittenhouse trial. meanwhile the judicial system wastes money & time and the parents on trial are driven to bankruptcy.

  26. Apollonius   4 years ago

    Love the way they keep having a hissy fit over him looking for ammunition prices online.

    Just about everyone I know regularly looks for discount ammo online. One friend just bought about a pallet of ammo, taking delivery in AZ, then having a series of visits from his friends in the People's Republic of California.

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