The Laissez Faire Origins of the Supreme Court's Abortion Precedents
“All of those…just come out of Lochner.”

Historians sometimes refer to the U.S. Supreme Court's early 20th century jurisprudence as an era of "laissez faire constitutionalism." They are referring in particular to Lochner v. New York, the 1905 case in which the Court struck down a state law that set maximum working hours for bakery employees on the grounds that it violated the liberty secured by the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment, which says that no state may deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.
Lochner was eventually made a dead letter during the New Deal, when the Supreme Court reversed course and said that because no such conception of liberty was specifically spelled out in the Constitution, the Court would no longer offer any judicial protections for it. A state "regulation which is reasonable in relation to its subject and is adopted in the interests of the community," the Court said in West Coast Hotel Co. v. Parrish (1937), "is due process."
Lochner may be gone, but one of its central legacies—the idea that the 14th Amendment protects a broad conception of liberty against state regulation—does still live on. That fact was clearly illustrated yesterday when the Supreme Court heard oral arguments in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health, a case about the legality of a Mississippi law banning abortion after 15 weeks of gestation.
"If I were to ask you what constitutional right protects the right to abortion," Justice Clarence Thomas asked Julie Rikelman, the lawyer representing Jackson Women's Health, "is it privacy? Is it autonomy? What would it be?"
"It's liberty, Your Honor," Rikelman replied. "It's the textual protection in the Fourteenth Amendment that a state can't deprive a person of liberty without due process of law, and the Court has interpreted liberty to include the right to make family decisions and the right to physical autonomy, including the right to end a pre-viability pregnancy." And that interpretation, she continued, stretches back "for over a hundred years in cases going back to Meyer, Griswold, Carey, Loving, Lawrence."
"Yeah," Thomas replied, but "all of those…just come out of Lochner, so we've dropped part of it."
The Supreme Court did (unfortunately) drop Lochner. But Rikelman had a point too. One of the cases she cited was Meyer v. Nebraska (1923), in which the Court invalidated a state law that banned both public and private schools from teaching young children in a foreign language. The law was successfully challenged by a man named Robert Meyer, who taught the Bible in German at a school run by the Zion Evangelical Lutheran Congregation.
"Without doubt," the Supreme Court said in Meyer, the 14th Amendment's guarantee of liberty "denotes not merely freedom from bodily restraint, but also the right of the individual to contract, to engage in any of the common occupations of life, to acquire useful knowledge, to marry, establish a home and bring up children, and generally to enjoy those privileges long recognized at common law as essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men." Among the legal authorities that the Court cited in Meyer in support of that sweepingly libertarian passage was Lochner v. New York.
Two years later, in Pierce v. Society of Sisters (1925), the Court continued the libertarian streak by striking down on 14th Amendment grounds Oregon's Compulsory Education Act, which had forbidden parents from educating their children in private schools. "The child is not the mere creature of the state," the Court declared.
Meyer and Pierce both remain good law today and are both squarely in the Lochner line of cases. And they are a big part of what Rikelman meant when she referenced "the right to make family decisions." Put differently, if a state today tried to thwart the wishes of many parents by outlawing private schools, Pierce would stand fully in the way. That's a legacy of Lochner.
Which brings us to abortion. In Griswold v. Connecticut (1965), the Supreme Court recognized an unenumerated right to privacy and said that a state law which criminalized the use of birth control violated this right. Griswold cited Meyer and Pierce in support of its judgment that married couples have a constitutional right to obtain and use contraceptive devices ("the right to make family decisions"). Roe v. Wade (1973), which recognized abortion rights, both cited and built on the Griswold decision.
In short, as Thomas indicated, there is a line running from Lochner to Roe. The expansive conception of liberty once recognized by the courts in the era of "laissez faire constitutionalism" is still at least partially identifiable today in the Supreme Court's privacy and abortion precedents.
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Huh...the Left fought tooth and nail to get Lochner destroyed for everything except their sacred cow.
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Exactly; It's like the left and right switched positions entirely on one specific subject.
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Exponential functions are a sacred cow of which looters?
If the originalists were actually originalists, they'd preserve Roe's holding on liberty grounds (the decision itself is crap), rehabilitate Lochner, and overturn their decisions which disposed of Lochner. Lochner is well in-line with the original understanding of the 14th amendment and the constitution's conception of liberty.
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Killing a baby is just like reading the Bible to her in German.
Nope, you're forcing someone to help create the baby.
TIL that the government holds a gun to womens' heads, forces them to have sex against their will and forces them to not use birth control! And on top of all that, then the government forces them to have the baby!
Oh wait no...sorry...all of those initial choices are entirely within the personal freedom of women.
You have to understand that Jakie has never had a sexual encounter in which his partner was not drugged and forced to participate, so he doesn't understand how normal human procreation works.
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No, the baby is already created.
No, you're wrong, it's the woman's right to choose to bear to term. You are free to not do that but you don't have the right to tell someone else what to do with their body. Sorry but mind your own business like any good libertarian would. Go have your own rug rats if you like.
It's the woman's right to choose whom to have sex with and whom to become pregnant by.
But once those choices are made and the woman chooses to become pregnant, the woman's choices are OVER. There is a new life in the equation, and that new life has rights of its own.
What is the actual difference between a newborn baby and a viable unborn baby? Neither one can survive on its own without the care of the mother. Both born and unborn babies make a claim on the 'bodily autonomy' of the woman. But everyone agrees universally that a woman can't choose to kill her newborn dependent offspring just because it imposes a 'burden on her autonomy.' So then why should a woman get to kill her unborn dependent offspring using the same logic?
There is an excellent documentary on selective sex abortion in Asia and the consequent absence of some 20 million or so girls. If a woman has a right to do whatever she wants with a fetus, why not let her kill it right after it is born? I don't see a huge difference; if you want to sanction pre-birth infanticide fine, but then let them get away with it post, if they are too poor to afford abortions.
If a woman has a right to do whatever she wants with a fetus, why not let her kill it right after it is born? I don't see a huge difference...
You don't see a huge difference because you don't understand why a woman would want an abortion. The purpose of an abortion isn't to kill an embryo or fetus. The purpose is for the woman to not be pregnant when she doesn't want to be. There is no need to kill a baby after it is born to accomplish that goal.
When you can think of any other situation where a person is legally required to take on the level of risk and physical burdens that come with pregnancy, even to save someone else's life, let me know. I can't think of any.
"any other situation where a person is legally required to take on the level of risk and physical burdens that come with pregnancy, even to save someone else's life, let me know. I can't think of any."
Let's see.... how about being ordered by the government to charge toward a fortified machine gun position, over a field totally devoid of cover but strewn with mines and barbed wire, with maybe a 50/50 chance of survival. It's legal requirement with a penalty of death for refusal. The US government's "compelling interest" is deciding which hereditary monarchy will control some patches of the Balkans.
Close, but no cigar for you. Military conscription is enacted to defend the whole nation against a threat, not for the benefit of one specific person. The whole nation would include the person conscripted, by the way.
And when the U.S. government sends soldiers to fight and die in a cause that really isn't a matter of national defense, then that is on the voters to be sure that they elect representatives that won't do that.
No one has been conscripted in the USA since 1973 except jurors, and that's a whole lot less invasive than either military service or serving as the life support system for a fetus.
That day the LIE sprouted that a fertilized egg wasn't actually a fertilized egg but a "baby".....
The only confusing part about the debate is chopping through all the propaganda and lies.
Where is the lie?
Where is the bright line distinction that is not fertilization?
Well; the common-sense (before all the propaganda came into the spotlight) was that the "baby" didn't arrive until birth. But ever-growing propaganda has clouded that simple and rational thinking. Now the "baby" arrives at some political imagined point in time.
Fertilization does not guarantee a 'baby' will be born. Not even close, since estimates vary up to around half of all fertilized eggs failing to successfully implant, under completely normal and natural conditions. Not to mention that fertilization isn't even necessarily the start of a unique living being, since identical twins come about at some point after that but before implantation (they share a placenta).
The fertilized egg is the beginning of a human life. That much should not be controversial. That human life ends pre or post birth for various reasons.
The question becomes - how much will society value a human life and/or at which stages of a human life is it acceptable to end one? Is it acceptable to end old lives because they burden us? Young (sick or disabled)lives because of the cost or inconvenience? What morality guides society, because everything outside of beginning and end of life appears to be either arbitrary or subject to moral evaluation.
What makes human life more valuable than the lives of other animals? We eat cows and wear belts and shoes made from their skin, not to mention designer handbags. Why is killing an embryo or fetus that is unwanted immoral while around a million unwanted dogs and cats are killed every year for the exact same reason? Dogs and cats can experience some kind of happiness and suffering, but an embryo or pre-viable fetus definitely cannot. And no one has to take on physical burdens and risks to care for animals in shelters the way that pregnancy imposes that upon a woman.
but also the right of the individual to contract, to engage in any of the common occupations of life, to acquire useful knowledge, to marry, establish a home and bring up children, and generally to enjoy those privileges long recognized at common law as essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men
... for the baby too.
Tell me, if you're married and have had children, when your wife got pregnant but before giving birth, did she say 'we had a baby' or 'we're going to have a baby'?
lol yada yada she's not having a puppy.
No, but it's not a baby yet, is it. No one actually speaks about it like its already a baby. It *will be* a baby - when its born, and no sooner.
Actually you fucking sperg, non-autistic people who have actually had sex typically refer to their baby as their baby during the pregnancy and after. Literally no one says "I am carrying a lifeless clump of cells that will one day attain personhood after it has descended through my vaginal canal!" or "Now that I'm pregnant, we might one day have a baby!" Normal fucking human beings say things like "I'm having a baby!" "I hope the baby is healthy!" "Congratulations on your baby!" and things like that all the fucking time. People on the spectrum like you have such difficulty fitting into society precisely because you don't understand language or nuance and have to express yourselves perfectly literally and tactlessly all the time.
And even if everyone was as autistic as you are and described their children in strictly medical terms during their pregnancies - which to reiterate, literally no one does. But even if your idiotic attempt at linguistic base-stealing were accurate, it wouldn't mean a fuck. Calling black people niggers didn't make them any less human. Calling autistics like you "mental defectives" or "imbeciles" didn't make them any less human. Whatever dehumanizing language you use will never make anyone you wish to kill any less human or make you any less morally culpable for your bloodlust. Every death cult has its euphemisms. They remain death cults.
It's barely worth responding to someone who can't go a whole sentence without insults, but come now. 'I hope the baby is healthy' is a wish for the future. 'I'm having a baby' is also a gloss on a future tense (informal shortening of 'I'm going to have a baby', unless you mean the speaker is claiming her water broke and she's literally having the baby right then). Note what isn't being said: things in regular present tense; 'the baby is healthy', 'I have a baby'.
You don't have a baby until it's being born. That's not only a scientific fact, but it's also inherent in the way we colloquially talk about pregnancy.
So yes, word games don't change reality. Calling a fetus a baby doesn't actually make it a baby. And those word games won't magically extend personhood to a fetus just because you pretend that its covered by the word 'baby'.
Where personhood attaches is a hard question, and you can't win it with word games. The rhetorical move to call a fetus a 'baby' is fundamentally dishonest, as it avoids doing the hard work of determining what personhood means and when it applies. Your critique applies far more to your rhetorical nonsense than my accurate use of terminology. (I didn't even make a particular claim here on when personhood attaches, but the fact that we distinguish between babies and fetuses regularly means you can't just imagine away that difference).
It's a waste and best to just click that mute user button. You can't argue with zealots, all you can do is put a boot on their neck and make them comply.
Ignorance is bliss. As your lack of ACTUAL knowledge of science is embarrassing and gross. To bad your mother didn't have your genius like sive of a brain.
The Phucko Knows
Here in Virginia outgoing gov Northam would beg to differ.
Actually, she said, "I hope our baby isn't as fugly as Squirrellhemorroid."
gaslighting defines, "the baby".... Keep it up propagandists.
Roe vs Wade collapses when the baby is recognized as a person.
Which is exactly what DNA Fingerprinting science proved in 1989. A human individual.
The legal system only applies the meaning of words to achieve justice. They have no business defining words.
The baby is a person deserving the inalienable right to life.
The premise to disregard this has been considered and rejected.
You're right that this whole debate depends on the definition of personhood. You are wrong to claim that either DNA or fingerprinting added anything to that question (and very wrong to claim that they decided the question). Personhood, like the definition of the start (and end) of "life", is an inherently moral question which science cannot answer.
You are arguing that personhood begins at conception. That's a valid opinion which you are entitled to hold. But you are wrong to imply that there is consensus on that definition.
“Personhood, like the definition of the start (and end) of "life", is an inherently moral question which science cannot answer.“
What makes you believe that to be true? What science or logic do you have as proof?
Are you going to say belief, your ideology? If belief is ever allowed to define truth, the existence of conflicting beliefs makes the concept of truth, reality meaningless.
The facts that demand consensus are that DNA fingerprinting is the science that proves human individuality, how we define personhood.
What logic or science makes you believe it isn’t?
Why god why would you think fingerprints are *the science* that proves human individuality, much less personhood? I'd like to see a scientific source claiming that, much less any evidence its scientific consensus.
(I will be especially shocked to find a scientific claim regarding personhood, given personhood isn't a scientific concept).
“ tarting in the 1980s scientific advances allowed the use of DNA as a material for the identification of an individual. ”
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_profiling
Definition of person
1 : HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL
Since logic isn’t your forte,
DNA fingerprinting identifies individuals and by definition a person is a human individual, the fact that the unborn have unique DNA from conception proves that the unborn are persons.
But the law allows you to kill persons in certain specific circumstances, such as when they invade your property with intent to do harm.
This is an unwanted person inside another person. Why doesn't self-defense apply?
Because mens rea would come into play. The fetus didn't rip open the woman's stomach and crawl in; it came about likely through voluntary activity.
But a rape baby is just as innocent as a non-rape baby. Is it OK to kill a rape baby?
You don’t have to lament your difficulty defining personhood. It’s already been done.
Persons are defined as a human individuals.
That is what the unborn are.
Well, according to Wikipedia, IUDs and the pill are forms of contraception that work partially by inhibiting the implantation of fertilized eggs. But you seem sure of what you are saying, so who am I to disagree.
The word is “contraception”
Devices can logically be called that if the prevent conception. That they also do other things is irrelevant.
Nobody has so far been stupid enough to suggest that abortion is contraception. Are you?
Assuming the conclusion. A baby exists once it is born.
Not according to our definition of the word baby.
1.a very young child:
The definition of child is
3a : an unborn or recently born person
These are the facts of how we define the meaning of the words we use. Their authority comes from the dictionary.
Upon what authority do you claim that the unborn are not babies?
9 out of 10 dictionaries still prefer not propaganda-stuffing the *unborn* definition with the complete lie of 'unborn'.
whoops; the complete lie of the 'unborn'.
Neglecting to include something does not exclude it.
I’ve demonstrated the dictionary inclusion of the unborn to the term baby.
Can you demonstrate ANY dictionary definition that specifically excludes the unborn from the term baby.
Of course you can’t because you’re wrong. You’re lying in an attempt to persuade. Aren’t you ashamed for being a propagandist?
Why yes; take your pick...
merriam-webster dictionary.
cambridge dictionary.
medical dictionary.
farlex partner medical dictionary.
Gosh the only one I could find is The Free Dictionary that includes 'unborn'. (Ya know like wikipedia where anyone gets to make definitions).
The massive consensus is a 'young child' where 'child' is unanimously defined as 'a person between birth and puberty'.
Best work harder at getting *ALL* those definitions changed.
If you are suggesting that any dictionary specifically says that the unborn are not babies, prove it. Provide the link.
Otherwise you’re just a shameful propagandist.
I have provided irrefutable proof that the dictionary specifically defines the unborn as a child. A baby.
Until someone can refute that proof, it stands.
All you have done is shown that many definitions are less complete.
UR such a d*psh*t... "Find me a dictionary that specifically says a horse is not a chicken. Oh I guess; horses are chickens... Either prove it's refute or my shameful propaganda stands...."
Pathetic...
Yes logical or scientific evidence is required as proof in an argument.
I provided proof..
Your attempt failed logically.
If that upsets you, try harder.
What you provided was a fallacy definition from but one-single biased resource followed by arrogance, ignorance and bigotry.
You haven’t proved that baseless claim.
Cite your proof that the dictionary I referred to is biased or based on fallacy.
The same authority that says that old people are not "pre-deceased corpses."
None.
Right. So old people are "corpses," with the same rights as corpses.
Cite your authority or admit you can’t.
What is your point anyways?
That the unborn are dead? They aren’t.
The term viability means the ability to continue living.
^brilliant response.
I have provided irrefutable proof that the dictionary specifically defines the unborn as a child. A baby.
Until someone can refute that proof, it stands and your denial is pure propaganda.
Oops
By this idiotic logic, every person you have ever met ceased to exist as soon as they left the room you were in. If a tree falls in the forest and there's no moron around to claim the tree is actually a rock, does it make a sound?
By this idiotic logic, every house you have ever built is completed at 30%.
more gaslighting, "the baby".... Keep it up propagandists.
I have provided irrefutable proof that the dictionary specifically defines the unborn as a child. A baby.
Until someone can refute that proof, it stands and your denial is pure propaganda.
"The dictionary"
That's sort of self-refuting by itself. As if there was just one true dictionary that we all know is being referred to without citation.
The dictionary as imperfect as it is gives all meaning to human communication.
But I’m afraid it can’t help you.
So I am curious whether any of the anti abortionists consider themselves hard core libertarians.
What other state acts limiting freedom do you support?
The anti-abortionists commenting here are not libertarians. They are theocrats or at the very least right-wingers of a radical bent.
can I simply wish all humans enjoy their right to life on equal grounds or does it have to be a wordfight because everyone's so fucking smart here?
Wishing and using Gov-Guns and FORCING are two different approaches.
So, TJJ, what do you think about any legal restrictions on abortion after the point of viability (around 24 weeks)? Even if you don't agree with such restrictions, can you recognize an argument for allowing the government to restrict the killing of viable feti/babies after the point of viability?
If you accept abortion at any time during pregnancy, then don't rights become merely a matter of geography (where the baby is), despite the fact a baby 9 months in utero is essentially the same as one that just popped out, except the one in utero has no right to life and the one one foot from the uterus suddenly has 100 percent right to life (except where Democrats allow infanticide)?
Even Roe v. Wade allows restrictions on termination of pregnancies after a certain time period.
I'd support a pregnant woman's right to fetal ejection ( C-Section ) all the way up to birth. Whatever law applies to the ejected *individual* after that can be decided as a different subject.
The idea that [WE] mobs can literally enslave a pregnant women by pretending they speak for a PART of her own body is just not an arena I'll ever support.
Heck even in the Siamese twins at birth department I believe the FAMILY has the highest authority. There is no excuse for [WE] mobs (Government) to be sticking their noses in that issue and playing the families God by a democratic vote of opinions.
In summary; It's a FAMILY matter - not the governments.
Says the biologically illiterate death cultist who has to argue unironically that fetuses and young children are genetically-indistinct parasites in order to rationalize his psychopathic lust for child blood. Turns out every society in history with the exception of illiterate savages, superstitious pagans, and atheistic communists (like you) has had respect for human life, including in its earliest stages. Normal people don't need theocracy to be repulsed by psychopathic worshipers of death.
"respect for human life" doesn't require each life to have a slave.
That's quite the little box your brain resides in. Your lack of knowledge can stand on a pea. Just own up to the FACT that your but and Evil little human. One who is but a waste of oxygen and a blemish on humanity.
The Phucko Knows
True. But the infiltrators' grasping desperation is a measure of their fear of spoiler votes cast for the party that WROTE the Roe v Wade decision on 17 JUN 1972 as a Libertarian Party platform plank. The Court copied it 16 days after Roger MacBride cast us an electoral vote.
If you believe that the unborn baby is a human being, with the same rights to life and liberty as the mother, then the vast majority of abortions would be easily seen as a violation of the NAP.
Unfortunately there is no "Libertarian" answer for when someone becomes a person with rights to life and liberty, so even hard core libertarians can disagree here.
Libertarians in principle have a near absolutist belief in a person's right to life and liberty, but they have no workable definition of what makes a human individual a person. That makes sense.
All Catholics and Lutherans in Germany believed Hitler was a reincarnation of Jesus. Look where those beliefs got them. They passed laws to coerce Jews and their intellectual heirs seek laws to coerce and bully females. Only AFTER 22JAN13 did the Prohibition Party demand a Constitutional Amendment to ban some birth control. The Republicans copied that the way the Dems copied gun control from the Nazis. Neither gang can get its Amendment passed.
"All Catholics and Lutherans in Germany believed Hitler was a reincarnation of Jesus."
I've never heard it put that way. Do you have a citation?
Did you mean January 22, 1973 (Roe v. Wade decision) when you wrote 22JAN13? It's not clear.
Anyway, here is what Wikipedia has about abortion in Germany under the National Socialists:
"Nazi Germany's eugenics laws severely punished abortion for Aryan women, but permitted abortion on wider and more explicit grounds than before if the fetus was believed to be deformed or disabled or if termination otherwise was deemed desirable on eugenic grounds, such as the child or either parent suspected of being carrier of a genetic disease. Sterilization of the parents also took place in some such cases. In cases where the parents were Jewish, abortion was also not punished.[3][4]
During World War II, anti-abortion laws were increased again, and it became a capital offense. In 1943, a law was passed making it punishable by death to provide a German woman with an abortion.[5] Non-Aryan women meanwhile were often "encouraged" to utilize contraception and abortion in order to reduce their populations.[citation needed]"
"The two laws had to be reconciled after reunification. A new law was passed by the Bundestag in 1992, permitting first-trimester abortions on demand, subject to counseling and a three-day waiting period, and permitting late-term abortions when the physical or psychological health of the woman is seriously threatened. The law was quickly challenged in court by a number of individuals – including Chancellor Helmut Kohl – and by the State of Bavaria. The Constitutional Court decided a year later to maintain its earlier decision that the constitution protected the fetus from the moment of conception, but stated that it is within the discretion of parliament not to punish abortion in the first trimester,[citation needed] provided that the woman had submitted to state-regulated counseling intended to discourage termination and protect fetal life."
"Abortion is illegal under Section 218 of the German criminal code, and punishable by up to three years in prison (or up to five years for "reckless" abortions or those against the pregnant woman's will). Section 218a of the German criminal code, called Exception to liability for abortion, makes an exception for abortions with counseling in the first trimester, and for medically necessary abortions and abortions due to unlawful sexual acts (such as sexual abuse of a minor or rape) thereafter.[10][11]"
You do not have the freedom to kill another as a result of your careless decisions. Take some god-damned responsibility for your actions.
Remember: The majority of abortion advocates also exhort the state to inject substances into your body without consent.
Sorry, esteve7, this isn't where it should be.
You mean vaccines? As in, your child must be vaccinated to enter this public school?
It's like you people are born anew each day with a fresh, smooth brain ready for new ideas to be crammed into.
You believe the state should be able to force women to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth, so you don't believe in "bodily autonomy," so what the fuck are you talking about?
Mystical bigots killed pregnant women by coercing doctors with terrorism since 1873. The 1972 Libertarian Party plank stopped that 16 days after the electoral votes were counted.
"Another" is an individual. Bigots who terrorize physicians kill individual women. In Mohammedan countries, that's legal. Maybe the superstitious are happier there?
I support state acts limiting sexual freedom. For example, I favor laws against rape and having the state get involved in cases where rape has occurred.
I support state acts limiting the freedom to use weapons. For example, I favor laws against shooting unarmed people on the street and having the state get involved in cases where drive-by shootings have occurred.
I support state acts limiting the freedom to travel. For example, I favor laws against breaking into a person's house and having the state get involved in cases where break-ins have occurred.
I support state acts limiting freedom of speech. For example, I favor laws against fraud and defamation and having the state get involved in cases where fraud or defamation has occurred.
I support state acts limiting freedom of religion. For example, I favor laws against infanticide and child sacrifice and having the state get involved in cases where infanticide and child sacrifice are being practiced.
Turns out being a "hardcore libertarian" doesn't mean being a hardcore retard who doesn't believe in laws.
Notice how not a single example includes laws against one's self.
Weird how the unborn don't count as "one's self".
Only in Pro-Life peoples imagination. In the real world a pregnant woman is still just one's own self.
I was curious. It seems a very state heavy position to take.
Think about contraceptives as an issue. Some forms of contraception kill fertilized eggs. Is that OK? or is is OK for the state to ban it and put people in jail for using those methods?
Or how about planning to travel somewhere that abortion is legal... is that not conspiracy to commit murder if abortion is murder?
It seems like the whole thing leads inevitably to a large increase in state police activity.
You seem to think that libertarianism is about punishing people. Perhaps you don't understand that libertarian philosophy is about determining a logically sound case of what is morally right or wrong. In the vast majority of cases where it is performed (and if you believe that an unborn child is a human being with the standard rights of a human being), abortion is wrong. What we intend to do about that may be up to your pragmatic arguments, but pragmatism should not substitute for actually being clear on the morality of a subject.
but pragmatism should not substitute for actually being clear on the morality of a subject
Damn straight.
You've consistently been one of the best commentators here, Overt. I want to cheat on my husbands with you.
It seems to me that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Don’t use big words you don’t understand.
Contraception
Definition
Contraception (birth control) prevents pregnancy by interfering with the normal process of ovulation, fertilization, and implantation. There are different kinds of birth control that act at different points in the process.
Killing a fertilized egg, a human individual, is abortion not contraception.
The rest of your statement is equally ignorant.
You do understand that implantation happens *after* fertilization, right? So if a device interferes with implantation, then it is (potentially) killing fertilized eggs. (Proving when an egg was actually prevented from implanting would be hard, but presumably a sexually active woman with such a device would statistically cause at least one death of a fertilized egg over a couple year period).
By your own definitions, such a device would be both a contraceptive and an abortifacient.
Usually when fertilization has been prevented so has implantation.
Maybe it prevents the rare implanting of an unfertilized egg which isn’t pregnancy anyways.
Since Rob Misek already explained contraception to you, I'll just add that RU486 is an abortifacient but would not be affected by the Mississippi law because it is only approved for use early in pregnancy (well ahead of the 15th week)
I thought libertarianism was about reducing the role of the government in everyday life.
I think that I have even heard of libertarians talking about getting rid of the police and only having private security firms.
I guess I misunderstood.
"I thought libertarianism was about reducing the role of the government in everyday life."
Then you are wrong. Libertarianism is about defining which actions are violations of the NAP and then avoiding doing those things. A consequence of that moral philosophy is that the government ought to be far more limited in its scope and power.
The point of government is to protect your rights.
If there is any proper role of government, it is to protect the innocent from being murdered.
Which part? My innocent finger, my innocent toes, my innocent ears??? Which part of me are you going to protect from me???
If you think your fingers and toes are separate persons then you have more pressing issues to overcome.
If you think a fetus is a *separate* person then you have more pressing issues to overcome.
Your talking BEFORE 9/11/2001? As everyday after has proven u to be wrong about r government.
The Phucko Knows
Roe v Wade protects innocent pregnant individuals from being murdered by glossolalian fanatics. This is spelled out in the 1972 Libertarian platform the Court adopted a fortnight after the votes were counted. The Buffalo Party and the Human Rights party also fielded similar platform planks against the initiation of force to threaten doctors and women. Voting Libertarian keeps women alive.
The argument is whether abortion is murder. Being against murder is orthogonal to liquidating police and government in favor of private organizations. After all, I believe you'd want your security force to stop somebody from murdering another.
While I would like to completely blame you for your ignorance, libertarians, most notably the capital 'L' ones, are very poor at explaining its principles, i.e. the NAP and private property, or are themselves confused about libertarian matters.
Well, actually I was thinking that I don’t want private security forces deciding what murder is…
Ah, but they wouldn't my friend. Their employers would.
And you don't want the state deciding what murder is either, since that's the entire point of your toddler's attempt at a modest proposal here. You shouldn't try to elaborate on your metaphor when you don't even understand it yourself.
Modern libertarians and democrats nolonger have any morals.
The Phucko Knows
Who's morals????? Were they expected to have your morals by the force of Gov-Guns?
Yeah the problem is that you "mistook" an idiotic strawman you constructed that bears no resemblance to any political system besides tribal anarchy for "libertarianism" in order to try to make an idiotic point.
If it makes you feel any better, out of respect for your deeply held principles I will not lift a finger to help you if I observe you being beaten, maimed or killed, and I will forcibly prevent the state-funded EMTs from rendering aid or taking you to a state-funded hospital for treatment. I am willing to do this because it is obvious that you are a very serious thinker who takes these issues extremely seriously.
Oh, and I forgot.
1. Where did I say anything about punishing anyone?
2. According to you, abortion is right in some cases. Could you explain?
Abortion is right in the case of robbbb here.
It should be performed asap.
Linus approves!
Postpartum abortions all around!
Yeah, it’s really hard to carve precise lines around your favorite ideas like abortion through vague references to liberty and nothing else.
It would seem we have two meaningful choices:
1. Explicitly amend the constitution to ban the government from limiting abortions
2. Interpret the liberty in the constitution to apply to things outside the uterus
I vote for two.
^this. The constitution give the federal government no powers to regulate control or outlaw actions and decisions you make for your own body.
Roe is a terribly reasoned decision because it tries so hard to apply ONLY to abortion and leaves all other personal autonomy out of it.
The bottom line is the drug war, fda, most of the dept of agriculture regulations and many others are completely unconstitutional.
Abortion fans don't want to face that because they simultaneously support all govt control over your body in all ways EX CEPT abortion. There's no rational way to reconcile those two if you approach it in a principled way.
This is the sane choice. The alternative is Faith: n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. Faith does not justify sending men with guns to violate women and doctors in this jurisdiction. But it does in Mecca.
Ascribing personhood to the unborn does not require religious belief, you bigoted, gibbering moron. It can be reached with basic logic, which is why people across time and cultures have held them to be individuals in their own right.
The more relevant question is why is the SC involved in this? Abortion is not mentioned in the Constitution or Bill of Rights. The Declaration of Independence (which isn't recognized as legal document) does mention your right to life and liberty. Absent a constitutional amendment the issue should be settled at the State Level. It isn't hard. I don't know any libertarian who doesn't think this is a State's issue.
The irony here is that of all issues one can bring up about government control over "my body my choice" abortion is the most thorny.
There is not "right" to anything in the constitution. All your rights are implied by teh fact that the constitution enumerates limited powers of the federal govt only . Everything else is off limits.
Those days are long gone of course and now even the libertarians are reduced to talking about what "rights" are found in the text of the constitution.
The power to end slavery fits the bill pretty well.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
It's pretty hard to associate FORCED reproduction without a person being in involuntary servitude.
Pollo does not know any national socialist who objects to States banning Jews from owning guns. Women are the only ones whose opinion on laws to coerce women are relevant. If most women were to vote to send goons with guns to threaten doctors and thereby force women to reproduce, no man has any moral standing to meddle. There were eugenics laws to castrate men, and the Supreme Court liked them for a while.
One of the biggest problems with this issue is that everyone is right about abortion.
And everyone is wrong about Roe v. Wade.
In the Slaughterhouse cases, the Supreme Court ignored both the letter and the spirit of the 14th Amendment, which was meant to prevent discriminatory legislation. (The author of the amendment made clear it was to prevent states from writing any law which favored any group over any other.)
Lochner restored a small measure of that meaning. Sweeping it aside was a bad call.
To prevent discriminatory legislation is to prevent laws that coerce individual women into involuntary labor of breeding. Yet a previous court ruled it was OK to enslave men in 1918 to die in poison gas trenches to recover loans made to the Allies. That is the Court's problem. It seems hardly gentlemanly to coerce women into breeders of cannon fodder merely to preserve a prior opinion invalidating the 13th Amendment to save Federal Reserve banks making war loans. Stare decisis is a custom. Freedom from enslavement other than for restitution to individuals is a right.
You can be an anti-democratic, theocratic loon grown in a Federalist Society Petri dish, or you can be in favor of individual liberty. Not both.
lmao... How does [WE] mob democratic-vote fill the bill of ensured individual liberty? UR a contradiction.
Because nobody is actually a superior human who deserves to rule other people without their consent, least of all Republican trash.
Yet democratic-voted laws do exactly that by a popularity contest.
Thus the underlining equation is the popularity is the superior.
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The double-homicide laws are wrong.
The liberty of a woman over-rides the right of a parasitic fetus to occupy a woman's body. You are not forced to donate a kidney to save a life. A woman should not be forced to continue a pregnancy to maintain a life that is not viable and is not conscious. If you want to make the decision scientific, 20 weeks is the very earliest one could possible say a fetus has the very beginnings of consciousness.
The common law has long recognized the right of the fetus to inherit property. From Blackstone's Commentaries:
An infant in ventre sa mere, or in the mother's womb, is supposed in law to be born for many purposes. It is capable of having a legacy, or a surrender of a copyhold estate made to it. It may have a guardian assigned to it; and it is enabled to have an estate limited to its use, and to take afterwards by such limitation, as if it were then actually born. And in this point the civil law agrees with ours.
Quoted by William J. Maledon, Law and the Unborn Child: The Legal and Logical Inconsistencies, Notre Dame Law Review, Vol. 46, Issue 2, page 351 (1971).
"You are not forced to donate a kidney to save a life."
Likewise you are not allowed to decapitate an unconscious person who, through no fault of their own (and often through your direct action) found themselves on your property. And yet that is essentially what you are arguing should be allowed.
" parasitic fetus" is all anyone needs to read in order to know not to take you seriously
So you are arguing women have no agency and just end up pregnant through no action or choice of their own? How misogynistic.
Aren't u the gross little human. Your scenarios r night and day. As your stupidity has no bounds in the actuality of life. The hypocrisy of a living human rooting for genocide of the innocent is appalling on every level. To bad your mom didn't possess your pure Evil "foresight".
The Phucko Knows
Only because that is a person with inalienable rights.
gaslighting defined, "a person".
In as much sense as car drivers end up in accidents through no fault of their own.
Your ignorance of science has no bounds. Hopefully your fully vaccinated and wear your diaper 24/7. As the pain u will now suffer during your short duration on this planet brings a smile to my face. To bad your mother didn't harbor your "truths".
The Phucko Knows
You can leave property to your pet through a trust too. Surely we aren't going to pretend goldfish are necessarily persons because of that?
Way to gloss over my point, which is that the law has long, long recognized the unborn as persons in just about every sense, including rights to property.
Yeah, that gal was just minding her own business when she suddenly got pregnant.
Yeah, that driver was just driving when she suddenly got in an accident. It must be all her fault for driving and there's no excuse to seek medical attention to fix her wounds.