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Social Media

Facebook Fact-Checkers Are Stifling Open Debate

It's true that some users spread lies on social media. But this can’t be solved by partisan “fact-checking."

John Stossel | 12.1.2021 11:48 AM

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Screen Shot 2021-12-01 at 10.57.49 AM | Stossel TV
(Stossel TV)

I've reported how Facebook censors me.

Now I've learned that they also censor environmentalist Michael Shellenberger, statistician Bjorn Lomborg, and former New York Times columnist John Tierney.

Facebook's "fact-checkers" claim we spread "misinformation."

In my new video, Tierney argues that the "people guilty of spreading misinformation are Facebook and its fact-checkers."

He's right.

Facebook doesn't do its censoring alone. It partners with groups approved by something called the Poynter Institute, a group that claims "a commitment to nonpartisanship."

But Poynter isn't nonpartisan. It promotes progressive jargon like "decolonize the media," and it praises left-leaning journalists. Once they even proposed blacklisting conservative news sites.

One "fact-checker" Poynter approved is a Paris-based group calling itself "Science Feedback."

Science Feedback objected to an article Tierney wrote that says forcing children to wear masks can be harmful. He cited a study, which later passed peer review, in which parents complained about masks "giving their children headaches and making it difficult for them to concentrate." Facebook calls Tierney's article "partly false."

That "partly false" label is nasty because it leads Facebook to stop showing Tierney's work to many people.

But his article was accurate. Science Feedback censored it because parents' comments are not a random sample. But it's obvious that such comments are not random. Tierney acknowledges that in his article.

What should be labeled "false" is Science Feedback's sloppy fact-check. It includes a "key takeaway" that says that masks are fine for children over 2. But "that's not something that most scientists believe," says Tierney. "Not what the World Health Organization believes."

Again, he's right. The World Health Organization says kids under 5 should generally not be required to wear masks.

"There are all kinds of well-documented effects of wearing a mask," adds Tierney. "Workers who wear masks for a couple hours in Germany have to stop and take a half-hour break. This shouldn't be a controversial thing to say."

No, it shouldn't.

Facebook often censors things that should be talked about. They banned discussion of the idea of that COVID-19 escaped from a lab, only reversing course when the Biden administration did.

Science Feedback also doesn't like articles questioning the "climate crisis." That's what got Shellenberger punished.

"They censored me for saying we're not in a sixth mass extinction," Shellenberger complains. "We're not!"

Lomborg was censored for pointing out "rising temperatures have actually saved lives." That's because cold weather kills more people than warm weather.

No scientific study has yet proven that a recent drop in deaths was caused by the temperature rise. But so what? His main point—temperature-related deaths fell while the planet warmed—is true.

Yet Science Feedback works with Facebook to keep that out of your Facebook feed.

Lomborg says the "fact-checkers" want people alarmed by climate change. "It makes it a lot easier to get people to donate money."

Science Feedback's leader now plans to expand his censorship powers—so he can censor not only Facebook, but other social media.

That's frightening.

I sympathize with Facebook. Some users spread lies. Politicians blame Facebook and demand the company "do something."

But there's no way Facebook can police all the posts, so it does destructive things like partnering with Poynter Institute "fact-checkers."

The fact-checkers "have a mission outside just facts," says Lomborg. "They also want you to not know stuff. That's not fact check. That's simply saying, 'We don't want to hear this opinion in the public space.' Frankly, that's terrifying….The goal is nice…less misinformation on the internet. But you could very well end up in a place where we only have approved facts that fit the current narrative. That would be a terrible outcome."

But that's the outcome we've got.

Facebook and its censors are now the enemy of open debate.

"They're trying to suppress people whose opinions and whose evidence they don't like," concludes Tierney. "They're not fact-checkers, they're fact-blockers."

The world doesn't need fact-blockers.

We need more freedom to speak, not less.

COPYRIGHT 2021 BY JFS PRODUCTIONS INC.

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NEXT: One of the Country's Last Eviction Moratoriums Is Struck Down

John Stossel is the host and creator of Stossel TV.

Social MediaTechnologyFacebookCensorshipCoronavirusMasksJoe BidenClimate Change
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  1. perlhaqr   4 years ago

    So, operating as designed then.

    1. Terry Anne Lieber (Don't Feed Tony)   4 years ago

      Yes.

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  2. SQRLSY One   4 years ago

    Only liberals are partisan! This is shown by, for example, "Parler" NEVER banning liberals!

    /Sarc

    https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/conservatives-flock-free-speech-social-media-app-which-has-started-n1232844

    Conservatives are flocking to a new 'free speech' social media app that has started banning liberal users
    Many of Parler's users have voiced their disapproval of how mainstream platforms such as Facebook and Twitter moderate content.

    "Free speech for me, but not for thee".

    1. sarcasmic   4 years ago

      Haven't you learned anything from Ken? Liberals aren't human beings. They're evil monsters that are destroying the very fabric of society. Banning them is the rational thing to do. It's not stifling opinion because they're opinions don't matter. It's not stifling debate because they're subhuman, and only humans have debate. They must be censored because everything they say is wrong.

      But when they censor it's pure evil.

      1. sarcasmic   4 years ago

        *their*

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      2. chemjeff radical individualist   4 years ago

        Progressives are horrible human beings with the intellect of a chimpanzee. So sayeth St. Ken.

        1. sarcasmic   4 years ago

          They're irrational, and completely impervious to ideas. Unlike Ken who is totally rational and welcomes debate.

          1. chemjeff radical individualist   4 years ago

            Ken is the paragon of facts and reason and impeccable logic. His arguments and conclusions are indisputable. The only reason one might disagree is if that person has the intellect of a chimp. There's just no other way to put it, really.

            1. sarcasmic   4 years ago

              Not only the intellect of a chimp, but the DNA as well. Anyone who disagrees with him is not a human being. They're animals. Scum. Targets to be shot at.

              1. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

                Look at all that projection.

            2. R Mac   4 years ago

              Hey Jeff, I didn’t see you respond to this in the links:

              https://mobile.twitter.com/realchrisrufo/status/1465752991827382272

              1. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

                Probably because it succinctly illustrates that every argument he's made on the topic in the last three months was absolute bullshit.

            3. JesseAz   4 years ago

              I mean you two don't need to prove Ken's point daily.

            4. Sevo   4 years ago

              Gee, the shitbag jeff hasn't been around so I couldn't ban him until now!
              Fuck off and die, lying pile of lefty shit!

          2. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)   4 years ago

            Six inches between you two. Kids can access these comments.

            1. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

              The chemleft reacharound is unblockable and has been famous here for years. Need a good twelve feet to thwart him.

              1. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)   4 years ago

                I also wanted to imply that they had tiny penises by noting that 6 inches was enough to keep them from crossing swords.

                1. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

                  Hence the reacharound.
                  Thanks to Jeff's mighty gut they probably can't cross swords while standing even if they were Dirk Digglers.

      3. Don't look at me!   4 years ago

        What we really need is more muting.

      4. Fats of Fury   4 years ago

        You were banned from Glibertarians. The banhammer came down in record time. So I guess they're banning "libertarians there, what?

    2. Iridium   4 years ago

      It is fair to say that Parlar is not a free speech site. However, there is a huge difference between banning people for bad ideas and banning for deliberate trolling other users on the site.

    3. Super Scary   4 years ago

      I think this user thinks this is some sort of "gotcha" but, like a lot of people I have seen post on this site, he is unaware of the sense of scale that is at play. A cursory Google search tells me Parler is just short of 3 million users, while Facebook is just short of 3 billion users. Obviously, the impact of Facebook's "fact checking" in politics is leagues more of a problem than a far smaller platform banning people that had joined the site purely to troll other users and cause grief.

      1. SQRLSY One   4 years ago

        "...Parler is just short of 3 million users, while Facebook is just short of 3 billion users."

        And is that the fault of Government Almighty favoritism (as is roughly claimed in the comments pages by the likes of MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer the Jesus-Killer for example), or is it... Simply a case of, "the market has spoken"?

        People listen to stuff (and read stuff) that they want to hear and read! Is this a "problem" that needs fixed? If so, HOW fixed? By Government Almighty threats and violence, maybe?

        1. sarcasmic   4 years ago

          That is a disadvantage to the internet. People can seek out echo chambers while completely ignoring anyone who disagrees. And while inside these echo chambers, those who disagree become caricatures instead of people. They become demonized and minimized to the point where there is no reason at all to seek out other opinions. All other opinions are wrong, and anyone with other opinions is an inferior excuse for a human being.

          Just ask Ken about anyone who disagrees with him.

          Oh you can't. He mutes anyone who disagrees with him. In the name of open debate of course.

          1. Don't look at me!   4 years ago

            People can seek out echo chambers while completely ignoring anyone who disagrees.
            Show us your mute list. Ranked in order of most hated, if possible.

            1. R Mac   4 years ago

              Not so fast. I’ve slipped down the rankings somehow and need to move back up before he posts his rankings.

              1. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

                Me too, but I think that I've done all that I can do.

                1. R Mac   4 years ago

                  How many times can I call him a drunk in one day, with no effect?

          2. Tony   4 years ago

            Yep. The internet is a dehumanization machine, thus a radicalization machine. It's easier to advocate for the genocide of people you don't have to look in the eye, and stupid people love to advocate for genocide as a simple solution to their problems.

            1. sarcasmic   4 years ago

              Haven't you advocated for genocide when it comes to people who reject the Church of Owlgor?

              1. Tony   4 years ago

                Only their censorship and public shaming.

            2. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

              Your lot invented the dehumanization machine.

              Tell us again about deplorables, rednecks, bitter clingers, kulaks, hoarders and wreckers, Tony.

              You and sarc are pure hypocrisy.

              1. Pepin the short   4 years ago

                I can’t look you in the eye. Your in a wheelchair

              2. Tony   4 years ago

                Smart people do tend to be liberals and do tend to be the ones inventing things, but if Mark Zuckerberg is my lot, I want a different lot.

                One of my big political positions lately is not to let autistic Harvard geeks control the world, as while they might be good at their specific fixation, they're almost never good at answering the great philosophical question of how humans should live. It's more of a pro-democracy thing, I suppose.

                1. JesseAz   4 years ago

                  The class that had to switch to subjective philosophy so they could sound smart without saying anything worthwhile aren't actually smart.

                  1. Tony   4 years ago

                    As you learn in subjective philosophy class, "smart" has a very slippery definition.

                    Sure, Zuck is smart at making lame programs with computer code.

                    Zuck is probably not smart at how the world should be run. At any rate, the principles of our very society recognize this and forbids such things.

              3. Fats of Fury   4 years ago

                And billionaires, Don't forget he wants to redistribute their assets and kill them and reincarnate and kill them again.

        2. Sevo   4 years ago

          TDS-addled spastic asshole gets flagged

    4. Zeb   4 years ago

      Are they banning liberals because they are liberals, or because they are there to try to ruin the experience for others?
      If they claim to be a free speech app and they ban people simply for their ideological viewpoint, then that's some bullshit if they claim to be for free, open debate and free speech. But if it's trolls trying to shit the place up that's a little different.

      1. SQRLSY One   4 years ago

        In reality, I suspect that a HUGE fraction of people define "troll" as being "anyone who says stuff that I disagree with".

        1. sqrlsy eats poop   4 years ago

          You like the idea of people shitting the place up, don’t you?

          1. SQRLSY One   4 years ago

            Hi Tulpa!

            “Dear Abby” is a personal friend of mine. She gets some VERY strange letters! For my amusement, she forwards some of them to me from time to time. Here is a relevant one:

            Dear Abby, Dear Abby,
            My life is a mess,
            Even Bill Clinton won’t stain my dress,
            I whinny seductively for the horses,
            They tell me my picnic is short a few courses,
            My real name is Mary Stack,
            NO ONE wants my hairy crack!
            On disability, I live all alone,
            Spend desperate nights by the phone,
            I found a man named Richard (Dick) Decker,
            But he won’t give me his hairy pecker!
            Dick Decker’s pecker is reserved for farm beasts,
            I am beastly, yes! But my crack’s full of yeasts!

            So Dear Abby, that’s just a poetic summary… You can read about the Love of my Life, Richard Decker, here:
            https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/10/11/farmers-kept-refusing-let-him-have-sex-with-their-animals-so-he-sought-revenge-authorities-say/#comments-wrapper
            Farmers kept refusing to let him have sex with their animals. So he sought revenge, authorities say.
            Decker the hairy pecker told me a summary of his story as below:
            Decker: “Can I have sex with your horse?”
            Farmer: “Lemme go ask the horse.”
            Pause…
            Farmer: “My horse says ‘neigh’!”
            And THAT was straight from the horse’s mouth! I’m not horsin’ around, here, no mare!

            So Richard Decker the hairy pecker told me that, apparently never even realizing just HOW DEEPLY it hurt me, that he was all interested in farm beasts, while totally ignoring MEEE!!

            So I thought maybe I could at least liven up my lonely-heart social life, by refining my common interests that I share with Richard Decker… I, too, like to have sex with horses!

            But Dear Abby, the horses ALL keep on saying “neigh” to my whinnying sexual advances!
            Some tell me that my whinnying is too whiny… Abby, I don’t know how to fix it!

            Dear Abby, please don’t tell me “get therapy”… I can’t afford it on my disability check!

            Now, along with my crack full of yeasts… I am developing anorexia! Some are calling me a “quarter pounder with cheese”, but they are NOT interested at ALL, in eating me!!! They will NOT snack on my crack!

            What will I DO, Dear Abby?!?!?

            -Desperately Seeking Horses, Men, or ANYTHING, in Fort Worth,
            Yours Truly,
            R Mac / Mary Stack / Tulpa / Mary’s Period / “.” / Satan

            1. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

              See, he was incapable of answering your allegation, so he shit-posted and trolled instead.

              1. SQRLSY One   4 years ago

                MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer the Jesus-Killer refutes ALL that I write, by NOT reading it!

                By now, MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer the Perfect One knows better than 99.999999999% of ALL that is published on the internet, by NOT reading it! MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer now knows damned near EVERYTHING!!!!

                MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer, I didn’t read your nonsense-babble above, and so, by NOT reading it, I have REFUTED it! So there!!!

                What’s good for the cooked goose, is good for the gander’s dander! What’s good for the Marxist-Mammary-Fascist is good for the libertarian (me); woo-hoo!!!

                1. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

                  "Gooble-Jesus-babble-refuted-borp"

                2. SQRLSY One   4 years ago

                  Griggle-schningle-GWEEP-dorped-out-hee BWEEGLESCHNAPPS!!!

                  MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer is now REFUTED out of inter-galactic orbit!

                  1. Sevo   4 years ago

                    TDS-addled spastic asshole gets flagged more.

        2. Zeb   4 years ago

          Well, I don't. And it's not much of a stretch to imagine a lot of online activist types deciding they are going to go fuck with the Nazis on Parler and ruin it for them. I don't know. That's why I asked.

          1. SQRLSY One   4 years ago

            I've never gone to "Parler", so I can't personally say one way or the other. Maybe "Parler" should spend a few bucks for their software or software writers, and give their users a "mute" button like we have here? "Mute" is nice! (I only use it on the advertisement-clutterers personally. Scrolling on down is easy as well.)

            1. Zeb   4 years ago

              That does seem like a reasonable solution. Though I can't really blame a site for kicking out people who are only there to be nasty and make things unpleasant for others.

    5. Paulpemb   4 years ago

      Because banning trolls who admit they only came to your platform to harass people is exactly the same thing as banning anyone who links to a news story that's unflattering to your chosen candidate.

  3. Jerryskids   4 years ago

    Fact checkers love checking facts in the same way that pedophiles love little children. Those words don't mean what you think they mean.

    1. R Mac   4 years ago

      More like a hockey check.

  4. Dillinger   4 years ago

    >>We need more freedom to speak, not less.

    don't goto North Korea. and don't use facebook.

  5. Jose 3   4 years ago

    People who use Facebook to filter the information they receive need others to think for them. It's unfortunate and doesn't bode well for the survival of democracy in our country.

    1. The Encogitationer   4 years ago

      Oh, dempcracy will survive well with unthinking citizens, up until a demagogue manipulates them into accepting dictatorship. Democracy, strictly speaking, means unlimited majority rule, so it doesn't matter whether that rule is informed or enlightened.

  6. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

    First off, masks don't work-- at least surgical masks-- the ones that everyone are wearing-- don't work. It's obvious to most people that masks have become (as one person put it) "symbols of compliance". The mandates and rules are a way for the locale, institution or state entity t signal that they take this disease seriously and their business is a "safe space" for virus spread.

    For individuals who wear them (when not forced to by law, diktat or policy) it's a way for the individual to signal their virtue in how seriously THEY take the disease, and how they're committed to protecting the community.

    Second, Stossel misses the overarching issue with the social media "fact checking" regime that Silicon Valley has become enamored with, and it's a much darker issue than just "partisanship". It's that they believe they are "omnipotent".

    This is what makes the tech moguls and denizens of Silicon Valley such a scary group of people. They believe they have the insight, tools and wherewithal to take any comment, any subject, any pronouncement, any utterance made by any person, individual, group or institution and declare it as TRUE or FALSE. There is something incredibly awful about the mindset that leads someone to not just believe that, but to put it into action on global scale.

    1. Joe Friday   4 years ago

      Diane, given that your first statement is completely false, what's the point of reading the rest.

      National Academy of Sciences study from January:

      "Abstract
      The science around the use of masks by the public to impede COVID-19 transmission is advancing rapidly. In this narrative review, we develop an analytical framework to examine mask usage, synthesizing the relevant literature to inform multiple areas: population impact, transmission characteristics, source control, wearer protection, sociological considerations, and implementation considerations. A primary route of transmission of COVID-19 is via respiratory particles, and it is known to be transmissible from presymptomatic, paucisymptomatic, and asymptomatic individuals. Reducing disease spread requires two things: limiting contacts of infected individuals via physical distancing and other measures and reducing the transmission probability per contact. The preponderance of evidence indicates that mask wearing reduces transmissibility per contact by reducing transmission of infected respiratory particles in both laboratory and clinical contexts. Public mask wearing is most effective at reducing spread of the virus when compliance is high. Given the current shortages of medical masks, we recommend the adoption of public cloth mask wearing, as an effective form of source control, in conjunction with existing hygiene, distancing, and contact tracing strategies. Because many respiratory particles become smaller due to evaporation, we recommend increasing focus on a previously overlooked aspect of mask usage: mask wearing by infectious people (“source control”) with benefits at the population level, rather than only mask wearing by susceptible people, such as health care workers, with focus on individual outcomes. We recommend that public officials and governments strongly encourage the use of widespread face masks in public, including the use of appropriate regulation."

      https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

      1. Bill Godshall   4 years ago

        The article cited by Joe Friday, which was a "narrative review" was written 16 months ago (to promote mask mandates) by left wing totalitarians who support mask mandates.

        1. sarcasmic   4 years ago

          Well, yeah. Masks are political. If you believe any of the studies that say they are effective then you're a leftist. If you reject such studies and believe the ones that say they are ineffective then you're a conservative. You can judge someone's politics simply by their opinion on masks. And once you know their politics, you know everything you need to know about the person. Did I say person? They're only a person if they agree with you. Otherwise they're subhuman.

          1. Zeb   4 years ago

            There is a political divide on masks. But I don't think that's really the main thing. Almost all of the people I know personally who are anti-mask are not at all what you would call right wing or conservative.
            I'd say it's more working class vs. elite/pajama class than left/right.

        2. Joe Friday   4 years ago

          Bill, masks are not hi-tech ever changing technology and the study is dated after vaccinations were developed, so science already had very complete information on this simple question. You might as well ask for an update of a study testing if guys getting hit by Mack trucks f..ked them up.

          The NAS is about as prestigious an organization as there is in the US, that is for those of us who accept modeern science.

          1. Longtobefree   4 years ago

            Do you believe the CDC or New England Journal?
            1. "If you are sick," the CDC says, "you should wear a facemask when you are around other people (e.g., sharing a room or vehicle) and before you enter a healthcare provider's office." But "if you are NOT sick," it adds, "you do not need to wear a facemask unless you are caring for someone who is sick (and they are not able to wear a facemask).
            2. A randomized trial of face masks involving about 7,700 hajj participants in Mecca had less promising results. At the end of the study, which was reported in The Lancet last year, the subjects who received masks—most of whom used them intermittently or not at all—were just as likely to have viral respiratory infections as those who did not. Last year was 2019; most people in C19 panicked 2020 wear their mask intermittently, or just plain wrong like over their mouth only, or hanging around their neck.
            3. New England Journal of Medicine 5/21/2020
            We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal. In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic.

            1. sarcasmic   4 years ago

              I thought the point of masks was to catch the aerosol spittle from a sick person. They were never intended to protect a healthy person from a sick person. Rather they were intended to lessen the chances of a sick person infecting others by catching little drops of virus-filled saliva in the mask before they can potentially infect others.

              Though whenever I've said this I've been bombarded with idiocy like "Masks don't stop individual viruses, so they're 100% ineffective!" or "Masks don't protect people so they're 100% ineffective" and of course "You didn't say masks are useless so you voted for Biden!"

              Very few people give a shit about the science around masks. It's all political virtue signaling.

              1. Don't look at me!   4 years ago

                100 years of research and practice has shown cloth face coverings to be ineffective to the point of uselessness against viruses.

              2. Joe Friday   4 years ago

                +10

                1. Joe Friday   4 years ago

                  Meant for sarcasmic

                  1. sarcasmic   4 years ago

                    I went through this argument a while ago and I found it to be a fool's endeavor to explain this. No amount of facts or logic can sway the positions people arrive at by emotional partisan politics.

                    1. JesseAz   4 years ago

                      Your explanation was the actual fools endeavor. You believe what you want despite 100 years of studies in real world situations.

                    2. R Mac   4 years ago

                      C!

              3. Zeb   4 years ago

                I imagine masks do something more than nothing. But they also are uncomfortable and fuck up social interaction and make people miserable and children socially retarded, so the tiny possible benefit is just not worth the cost.

                1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

                  They do something. The annoy the wearer, the cause the wearer to fiddle with them, handle them. They cause my nose to run, forcing me to repeatedly remove it, wipe or dry my nose then reapply the mask, they can restrict breathing when exerting oneself or engaging in sporting activities, they can trap other pathogens inside the mask when worn for long periods of time, they can lead to increasingly unsanitary conditions if a mask is not repeatedly replaced throughout the day accompanied by rigorous hand-washing.

                  I would never claim they do "nothing".

                  Here's what the CDC claims they do:

                  https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

                  1. Zeb   4 years ago

                    Yeah, makes my allergies worse and every day I have a headache at the end of the day.

                2. Vernon Depner   4 years ago

                  Cost-benefit analysis is a racist alt-right conspiracy theory. Anyone who supports it should be cancelled.

                3. Joe Friday   4 years ago

                  Zeb, if you catch it or give it to your grandmother you might feel differently.

                  1. Zeb   4 years ago

                    Why would I? Is there something about the virus that changes one's perception of reality?
                    That's really an odd thing to claim. I don't believe what I do about the effectiveness of masks for no reason, or to make a political point. I do because there is a long history of research saying they don't do much and nearly two years of data on covid now that shows pretty much no correlation between mask mandates and lower infection or death rates.

                    1. Joe Friday   4 years ago

                      Zeb, you are wrong about masks and that has been demonstrated here today and many times in the past. You don't even need a study - of which there are now many showing there effectiveness - tpo know this. You understand that we catch it primarily from droplets from the breath of others, rarely of hard surfaces. Any mask which restricts our exhalations will restrict the travel of these droplets. There is debate about how small the droplets can be, and therefore the required fineness of the mask material for complete restriction of them. The important point is we make improvements without necessarily reaching perfection. We limit the travel of the greater quantity of our exhalations and therefore the spread of the virus. This just simple common sense. Studies which can prove a correlation between mask wearing and cases are difficult because of all the variables, though there are recent ones involving schools.

                      "CDC released three studies in the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR) that highlight the importance of using layered prevention strategies including universal masking to stop the spread and minimize disruptions to school operations for safe in-person education. These studies found that school districts without a universal masking policy in place were more likely to have COVID-19 outbreaks. Nationwide, counties without masking requirements saw the number of pediatric COVID-19 cases increase nearly twice as quickly during this same period..."

                      https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0924-school-masking.html

                    2. Zeb   4 years ago

                      The only thing that matters is whether mask use leads to real results in the real world, the way people actually use masks. I haven't seen anything to suggest that it makes any significant difference in the trajectory of the infection or death curves.
                      You also ignore the real harms that masks cause when used long term like this. They are not negligible. So it is on you and other mask lovers to demonstrate that not only that masks are effective to some significant degree, but also that that effect is large enough to be worth the many significant costs of widespread and long term masking.

                    3. Zeb   4 years ago

                      And why the fuck would I believe anything you say when you keep spouting demonstrably incorrect facts as I shoed below? You are either repeating bullshit you got from some source or making shit up.

              4. JesseAz   4 years ago

                We already know you're ignorant.

            2. Joe Friday   4 years ago

              Longtobe, the b enefits of masks accrue not so much to the wearers but others since they suppress the travel of exhalations of those wearing them. If someone is a spreader without a mask, there exhalations can more likely reach the mask of another where they are literally surrounding their head and small fractions of an inch from the mouths and nostrils.

              Think about it. This is why masks are most effective when all or all but a small minority wear them.

              As to your quote, don't get your news from Facebook.:

              ".."THE NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE, MAY 21, 2020!!" one Facebook post stated. The post also referenced "Plandemic," a widely shared online video that promoted several discredited conspiracy theories about the coronavirus.

              Article's authors say they intended to 'push for more masking'
              In a follow-up letter to the New England Journal of Medicine published online June 3 and in print July 9, three of the article's authors, Drs. Michael Klompas, Charles Morris and Erica Shenoy, wrote some people were using their article "as support for discrediting widespread masking."...

              https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/07/22/fact-check-new-england-journal-medicine-article-face-masks-coronavirus-covid-19-spread/5454384002/

              1. sarcasmic   4 years ago

                Masks are only useful when an infected person wears them. Forcing everyone to wear them, sick or not, is pointless at best and tyrannical at worst.

                1. Joe Friday   4 years ago

                  sarcasmic, you don't know who is "sick", if by "sick" you mean able to transmit the disease. You don't have to have symptoms to be in this state and even the vaccinated may be "sick". The only way we could stop transmission would be regular testing, which is also not perfect.

                  Better safe than sorry when being safe is pretty easy and the risks are high.

                  1. sarcasmic   4 years ago

                    Except the risks are not high. Not unless you're old and frail. Those are the ones the virus actually kills. The risk for people who are not old and who do not have health problems is somewhere between minimal and nonexistent. That's why it's news when a young person dies from COVID. Because it's extremely rare.

                    1. Joe Friday   4 years ago

                      sarcasmic:

                      1. Then why bother at all?

                      2. You're making a value judgement which assumes that something which kills more Americans than heart disease or cancer is not high risk. WTF? Forget who is at risk as we almost all know and interact with old people and plenty of people in their 50s bought the farm and some younger and in good shape have either died or been permanently damaged. I know 2 docs personally who are on the front lines of this - you don't want to get it and know 1 person who had for a month and have 2 relatives - they were old but loved and are missed - who croaked from it.

                    2. sarcasmic   4 years ago

                      Then vaccinate the old people. Leave the low risk people alone.

          2. The Encogitationer   4 years ago

            Why does it always have to be a Mack Truck?

            That, right there, reveals your bias and willingness to mindlessly repeat a popular meme. "Just the facts, Ma'am..."

            1. Joe Friday   4 years ago

              OK, Peterbilt.

      2. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)   4 years ago

        we develop an analytical framework to examine mask usage, synthesizing the relevant literature to inform multiple areas

        Note the bolded text. This is not a study, it is a study of studies. This is not science.

      3. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

        Wrong:

        From the CDC.

        Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures

        Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.

        Fact.

        1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

          The microphone being dropped is presumed.

          FACT.

        2. Joe Friday   4 years ago

          Don't drop it on your toe Diane.

          Your study says there is "limited evidence" for the effectiveness of masks against influenza, which is not proof that they don't work - fact. One of the study authors (done at the U of Hong Kong) said your interpretation is wrong and another study with one of the same authors which was covid specific and completed several months later confirmed the effectiveness of masks.

          "Abstract
          We identified seasonal human coronaviruses, influenza viruses and rhinoviruses in exhaled breath and coughs of children and adults with acute respiratory illness. Surgical face masks significantly reduced detection of influenza virus RNA in respiratory droplets and coronavirus RNA in aerosols, with a trend toward reduced detection of coronavirus RNA in respiratory droplets. Our results indicate that surgical face masks could prevent transmission of human coronaviruses and influenza viruses from symptomatic individuals.."

          https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2

          Of course my study quoted earlier also corrects your wrong interpretation of the U of Hong Kong one you cite.

          1. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)   4 years ago

            You. Are. Full. Of. Shit!

            Do you even read this stuff? This is a study done on data from 2013-2016 pre-COVID. They have 'synthesized' data to come to completely unwarranted and unscientific conclusions.

            reduced detection of influenza virus RNA in respiratory droplets and coronavirus RNA in aerosols, with a trend toward reduced detection of coronavirus RNA in respiratory droplets

            Reduced means reduced, not non-existent. How many virii does it take to infect a host? Good question! And one they didn't even address.

            Stuff your mask up your ass, because that is where your head is.

    2. MT-Man   4 years ago

      Diane agree with pretty much all you said. It reminds me of some of things Rufus posted before I believe he got burnt out of saying it here by hearing the Joe Fridays of the world cry and scream at you all day.

      1. R Mac   4 years ago

        I miss Rufus.

    3. Tony   4 years ago

      So don't wear a mask. Be a whiny-ass titty baby. Fuck.

      There's a stigma for wearing a mask, a hygiene measure that doesn't affect you, because of your stupid evil political diet.

      You people need to stop sucking the teat of your diseased culture so much and read some fucking science every now and then.

      1. Don't look at me!   4 years ago

        Old tee shirts stop disease!
        ScIeNcE!

        1. MT-Man   4 years ago

          On queue .... Tony Baloney.

      2. sarcasmic   4 years ago

        Tony, the purpose of a mask is to lessen the chances of a sick person infecting others. They don't help healthy people at all. If a person is not sick, then there is no medical or logical reason to wear one.

        1. Tony   4 years ago

          ...Except to prevent infecting other people.

          Surely you've heard of symptom-free or low-symptom COVID.

          Furthermore, there is an argument to be made for normalizing mask wearing. Instead, are you endorsing the opposite? Stigmatizing a simple and effective hygiene measure for no reason whatsoever except that the Republican party has chosen it as yet another wedge issue in lieu of having ideas?

          1. sarcasmic   4 years ago

            Furthermore, there is an argument to be made for normalizing mask wearing.

            I'm sure there is. However I haven't heard a good one yet. And there are plenty of good arguments against normalizing mask wearing. Requiring an unnecessary and ineffective "hygiene measure" is pointless at best and tyrannical at worst.

            The only purpose for "normalizing mask wearing" is to make people comply and submit. That's it.

            1. Tony   4 years ago

              Also to lessen the spread of a deadly disease.

              You're also required to cover your genitals in public. Evil tyranny concentration camp or no?

              1. sarcasmic   4 years ago

                Deadly to whom? Tell me, what percentage of patients under 60 have died? Under 50? Under 40?

                With rare exceptions it's only deadly to the aged and infirm.

                If you're at risk get vaccinated, shut the fuck up, and leave low-risk people alone.

                This nonsense about non-vaccinated being a threat to the vaccinated has to stop. It's stupid and illogical.

                1. Tony   4 years ago

                  So I'll put you down for advocating for the mass death of the elderly and sick. They don't matter. They're not people like you and me.

                  1. Zeb   4 years ago

                    No, Tony, you are the one for mass death of old people. The policies you favor completely failed to adequately protect the elderly and infirm while fucking up life for everyone else who didn't need protection. Fuck you.

                  2. Don't look at me!   4 years ago

                    The elderly and sick are already in the process of dying.

                    1. Tony   4 years ago

                      We're all in the process of dying.

                      But I do encourage you to spell out your political position in TV ads: Republicans for the extermination of the old and infirm!

                      Add a Heil Hitler while we're at it, for added clarity.

                2. Joe Friday   4 years ago

                  sarcasmic, nothing you are saying here is logical. The only ones who know they are sick will typically have symptoms and not therefore sitting next to you at the bar. Your cavalier attitude towards those who have died or will - a common refrain from the MAGA and anti-vaxx morons - is ridiculous and borderline inhuman. How much do we spend on heart disease and cancer, neither of which yearly kill as many as covid has? Hey, f..k it, it's just the old!

                  1. Zeb   4 years ago

                    According to the CDC: "About 659,000 people in the United States die from heart disease each year"
                    So about 2 years worth of covid deaths. And covid deaths won't continue at that rate for decades. So you are just plain wrong.
                    Also from the CDC: " In 2019, there were 599,601 cancer deaths". Also about twice as much as covid. And for decades on end, not a few rough years.
                    And we've spent way more on attempting to control covid than on either of those things and failed to make much of a difference at all.
                    So fuck off with your smug bullshit. Because it is bullshit. And easily verified as such.

          2. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

            Wrong. The CDC has repeatedly confirmed that surgical masks do not work for laboratory confirmed influenza. FACT.

            1. Joe Friday   4 years ago

              Yeah, Diane by your one misinterpreted study, since refuted by that study's authors and by more recent ones specifically dealing with a covid pandemic, not generic influenza.

              Do you try to be this silly or does it just come naturally?

              1. JesseAz   4 years ago

                It is amazing watching lysenkoism is real time. Replace 100 years of studies and real world setting analysis with models and conjecture for political reasons.

        2. JesseAz   4 years ago

          Again you are amazingly ignorant. The majority of infections don't come from light occasional spittle retard. It comes from continued exposure from exhalation. That's why there is a much lower infection rate outside even says masks you ignorant fuck.

          The only study ever done to show lesser infection rates from masks was a perfectly sealed mask on a straw between 2 cages. A non real world example.

          Stop thinking you are smart. Stop thinking you are the golden mean. Youre an ignorant fuck.

    4. American Mongrel   4 years ago

      Omniscient...
      Pedantic sure, but scienta is potens 😉

  7. Bill Godshall   4 years ago

    "Now I've learned that they also censor environmentalist Michael Shellenberger, statistician Bjorn Lomborg, and former New York Times columnist John Tierney."

    They've also been censoring hundreds/thousands of other experts (who tell the brutal truth that threatens the deceitful goals of woke left wing totalitarians).

  8. Bill Godshall   4 years ago

    Stossel's segment on this growing censorship is one of his best ever.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCOvFLlsjI4

    1. R Mac   4 years ago

      It’s not censorship if it’s not the government.

      — Everyone at Reason except Stossel

      1. Tony   4 years ago

        It's just that you are perfectly in favor of private censorship, what with you being a libertarian who believes in liberty.

        If all of a sudden you want to use government force to compel people to require free access to their own private publishing services, regardless of the content of their stuff, then just say you stopped being a libertarian and started being a socialist. Then we can have a nice public healthcare system.

        1. sarcasmic   4 years ago

          Don't confuse R Mac with libertarians. He's a conservative troll. Nothing more.

          1. JesseAz   4 years ago

            The Jennifer Rubin of libertarians weighs in. Thanks sarcamic.

          2. R Mac   4 years ago

            How would you know what we’re talking about if you have me on mute, drunk ass?

        2. R Mac   4 years ago

          Hey look, Tony’s making up bullshit about what I believe again. He can’t stop.

  9. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

    Police bodycam footage of NBC producer who was trying to Dox jurors released.

    1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

      Officer on phone with NBC booking producer.

      "We were trying to respectfully, umm, just, trying to see if it's umm, if it's possible to, um, to find any leads about um, about the case... ahh we were just keeping our distance, um, just to see like where, people involved in the trial um are positioned, by no means were we trying to get in contact with any of the jurors [and so on]"

      1. Super Scary   4 years ago

        "Just to see like where, people involved in the trial um are positioned"
        What a wonderfully roundabout way of saying doxed.

  10. Joe Friday   4 years ago

    If you get your news from Facebook, you're getting what you deserve. The country deserves better citizens but at least 40% are too dumb to fish.

    1. Brandybuck   4 years ago

      Facebook is a giant comment section. If I ran Facebook I be keeping it a comment section rather than a place to link to dubious news from dubious sites. Don't know how to do that, and it may be too late to stop it, but simple moderation rules like "no low effort posts" would help. That would cut out on link-only posts as well as stupid memes.

      1. Pepin the short   4 years ago

        Low effort. So what you bring to the table your whole existence.

    2. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

      People don't get their news from facebook. They get their news from CNN's facebook page, or a link to CNN in a comment on a facebook page, or a link to an article written by the author's facebook page etc.

      However, facebook publishes its thoughts on those comments, and inserts its opinions and commentary on those links and articles. It curates, promotes, de-promotes and editorializes on said comments. But facebook isn't a publisher. They're just a neutral body where users post stuff.

      1. Joe Friday   4 years ago

        People getting their news means they can be reading Diane's crazy uncle's posting on how JFK is coming back to be president or John jr to be Trump's VP.

        That's where she got it.

        1. R Mac   4 years ago

          Did you even read Diane’s post before responding?

          1. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

            All signs point to no.

    3. Brian   4 years ago

      “The country deserves better citizens…”

      That’s an odd phrase. Who is the “country” there? The State?

      1. Joe Friday   4 years ago

        Brian, by "country" I meant our country, America, USA? Heard of them? It includes the people and their democratically chosen governments at all levels but especially the federal USA government.

        Any questions?

        1. Brian   4 years ago

          Does it contain “citizens”?

  11. Bill Godshall   4 years ago

    Looks like some conservative Christians won't be donating to the Salvation Army this year (after they published a racist training guide)
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fcache.salvationarmy.org%2Fe0c074e3-39db-4b09-a6ea-aa5bdb6ecaa6_Let%252527s%252520Talk%252520About...%252520Racism%252520COMPLETE%252520SET.pdf&client=safari&source=hp&ei=HIinYazDF9yHwbkP2cqu8AE&oq=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fcache.salvationarmy.org%2Fe0c074e3-39db-4b09-a6ea-aa5bdb6ecaa6_Let%252527s%252520Talk%252520About...%252520Racism%252520COMPLETE%252520SET.pdf&gs_lcp=ChFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocBADMggIABCABBCxAzIICAAQgAQQsQMyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIOCC4QsQMQgwEQxwEQrwEyCAgAEIAEELEDMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQ6CAguELEDEIMBOg4ILhCABBCxAxDHARCjAjoLCC4QgAQQxwEQowI6DgguEIAEELEDEMcBENEDOhEILhCABBCxAxCDARDHARDRAzoRCC4QgAQQsQMQgwEQxwEQowI6BQguEIAEOggILhCA

    1. The Encogitationer   4 years ago

      The link didn't work, but I'm familiar with the story from elsewhere. Evidently, the Salvation Army's brand of Christianity is inclusive of Wokeist Original Sin on top of the equally bogus OG Original Sin.

      Damn, who could stand that much Original Sin piled on top of Original Sin without slitting their throat? How is this helping the poor and homeless?

      I sent them a duffel bag of clothes with a Post-It Note saying: "You don't have to believe to give or help" and marked with the Atheist single-penstroke circled "A."

      Really, though, in the long haul, what the poor and homeless need is a society that frees them and encourages them to work, save, and build better lives. The ones who make that society possible will be the real ones to "Do The Most Good."

  12. Brandybuck   4 years ago

    The problem is not fact checking. The problem is that Facebook choose a non-objective politically partisan firm to do its fact checking.

    The actual problem is not the fact checking, but the fact checkers. How does one get objective checkers not beholden to an ideological or political faction? One can't, because in our current culture everyone is biased and skewed.

    But a possible solution exists. Rather than marking something true or false. Provide the fact itself with references. Wikipedia works, and it's common there to see calls for references. So just reference the fact. By that I don't mean a link to partisan article, but rather a citation from a peer reviewed study. Or link to official document. In the case of January 6th, link to official state and county election results. If someone misreports polling data, link to the actual polling data. Etc.

    It basically just a difference in attitude. It's not perfect, but it's better than pretending one side is always right and the other is always wrong.

    But more importantly, get a reputation for accuracy and objectivity. I trust Wikipedia not because it's edited by a bunch of randos, but because it's demonstrated a history of objective fact checking backed up by copious sources. I trust Snopes despite it being run by Democrats, because it has a history and reputation backing it up, plus they provide sources and trace the history of the fake news in question.

    The bad approach is just marking a post wrong. A good approach is providing sources.

    My two cents. Now go troll away because you know you want to.

    1. Bill Godshall   4 years ago

      "Wikipedia works, and it's common there to see calls for references."

      Woke left wing totalitarians have also taken over Wikipedia to promote their left wing biases.

      1. SQRLSY One   4 years ago

        Total horseshit! If the above were true, Wiki would NOT be reporting the below, which gives the lie to "whites stomp on all races and ethnic groups in the USA, 'cause Mighty Whitey keeps them DOWN"! Then how do you explain Asians? ... Point is, "Wiki" is HONEST, even when the facts do NOT support most or many liberals!

        From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States

        In 2019, with respect to the reading skills of the nation's grade-four public school students, 34% performed at or above the Proficient level (solid academic performance) and 65% performed at or above the Basic level (partial mastery of the proficient level skills). The results by race / ethnicity were as follows:[74]

        Race / Ethnicity Proficient level Basic level
        Asian 57% 82%
        White 44% 76%
        Two or more races 40% 72%
        National Average 34% 65%
        Native Hawaiian/Pacific Islander 24% 55%
        Hispanic 23% 54%
        American Indian/Alaska Native 20% 50%
        Black 18% 47%

        1. Longtobefree   4 years ago

          Horseshit to your horseshit; history rewrite, Wikipedia style.

          At this time (1665), there were only about 300 people of African origin living in the Virginia Colony, about 1% of an estimated population of 30,000. The first group of 20 or so Africans were brought to Jamestown in 1619 as indentured servants. After working out their contracts for passage money to Virginia and completing their indenture, each was granted 50 acres (20 ha) of land (headrights). This enabled them to raise their own tobacco or other crops.

          In one of the earliest freedom suits, Casor argued that he was an indentured servant who had been forced by Anthony Johnson, a free black, to serve past his term; he was freed and went to work for Robert Parker as an indentured servant. Johnson sued Parker for Casor's services. In ordering Casor returned to his master, Johnson, for life, the court both declared Casor a slave and sustained the right of free blacks to own slaves.

          Rewriting history. Wikipedia style
          I suspect this is an attempt to conflate actual slavery, by force, with a contract of indenture, voluntarily entered into for a period of time.
          This will help blur the blatant lie of slaves being brought to Jamestown in 1619, when the fact is that they were indentured servants who sold their indenture to pay the passage to the new world.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Casor
          Interesting note concerning Wikipedia;
          This is the text I captured April 15th.
          At this time (1665), there were only about 300 people of African origin living in the Virginia Colony, about 1% of an estimated population of 30,000. The first group of 20 or so Africans were brought to Jamestown in 1619 as indentured servants. After working out their contracts for passage money to Virginia and completing their indenture, each was granted 50 acres (20 ha) of land (headrights). This enabled them to raise their own tobacco or other crops.
          This is how it now reads
          At this time, there were only about 300 people of African origin living in the Virginia Colony, about 1% of an estimated population of 30,000. The first group of 20 or so Africans were brought to Point Comfort in 1619 as enslaved Africans. After working between 15 and 30 years, most were granted their freedom to purchase land and start their own homestead.
          (this bit has been added)
          Although most historians believe slavery, as an institution, developed much later, they differ on the exact status of their servitude before slavery was established, as well as differing over the date when this took place. The colonial charter entitled English subjects and their children the rights of the common law, but people of other nations were considered foreigners or aliens outside the common law. At the time, the colony had no provision for naturalizing foreigners.
          Welcome to the revolution!

          A bit more – – – –
          The changes were made on October 29, 2020:
          Major restatements were from ‘indentured servant’ to ‘enslaved African’, from ‘Jamestown’ to ‘Point Comfort’ (perhaps to avoid searches including Jamestown? Point Comfort is 40 miles downriver from Jamestown), from ‘granted land’ to ‘granted their freedom to purchase land’ (after serving an indenture, they were free by law, and no granting of the freedom to purchase was needed).

          Kind of proves my speculation in the original reply, I think.

          1. Longtobefree   4 years ago

            Here is the link to the edit page
            https://en.wikipedia.org/ w/index.php?title=John_Casor &diff=next&oldid=979332193

            1. SQRLSY One   4 years ago

              Speaking of slavery and re-writing history, conservative Christians are now re-writing the Bible! They are no longer "salves" in the Bible; they are "bondservants"! Conservatives can be "PC" too!

              https://www.salon.com/2021/07/10/when-evangelical-snowflakes-censor-the-bible-the-english-standard-version-goes-pc/

              When evangelical snowflakes censor the Bible: The English Standard Version goes PC
              How a Bible edition aimed at right-wing evangelicals has quietly scrubbed references to slavery and "the Jews"

              1. SQRLSY One   4 years ago

                Shit! "Slaves" not "salves"! Silly me! (Don't tell anyone, but, sometimes I make mistakes).

              2. Brandybuck   4 years ago

                To play devil's advocate on the Bible, most slavery pre-North America was NOT chattel slavery. Debt slavery was common, and one was freed when the debt was paid off. Or they were slaves of conquest. It was very rare for children of slaves to be considered slaves themselves for life. Thus "bondservant" is a somewhat accurate translation in cases.

                On the other hand, it's still a whitewashing of the biblical patriarchs. Trying to make them sinless despite the Bible clearly stating that all are sinners. Even the new testament has clear rules on the treatment of slaves, so it's not just an old testament thing.

                It's like the South pretending that the Civil War was about states rights rather than slavery. But it was the right of states to be slave states. It's playing with words. The proximal cause of the Civil War was slavery. Period.

                How this Southern mentality infected all of conservatism is beyond me. Always gotta be whitewashing stuff. Goldwater is rolling over in his grave.

                1. The Encogitationer   4 years ago

                  The clear rule of both Testiments is that humans owned by other humans, for whatever nitpicky reason, were to obey their owners and not resist and that government authority on Earth was established by God.

                  Good thing both the Founding Fathers and the Abolitionists didn't obey those parts of The Holy Bible or we wouldn't be here as libertarians trying to scratch and survive to keep the dream of Individual Rights, Equal Justice, and Limited Government a reality.

                  1. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

                    You do realize that the Abolitionists were monolithically evangelical and used the New Testament as their basis, don't you? Particularly Galatians 3:28 - "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" and Colossians 3:11 - "In this new life, it doesn’t matter if you are a Jew or a Gentile, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbaric, uncivilized, slave, or free. Christ is all that matters, and he lives in all of us."
                    Strangely this was part of the origin of feminist thought, too.

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism_in_the_United_Kingdom#Origins

                    Most of the anti-abolitionist arguments on the other hand came from continental enlightenment thinkers.

                    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/06/taking-the-enlightenment-seriously-requires-talking-about-race.html

                    This isn't to say that the Enlightenment was bad and evangelicalism good, just that the story was far more complex than saying it was all religion or all scientisms fault.

                    1. Zeb   4 years ago

                      Good for them. But I'd still say that it's worth noting that those passages don't condemn slavery and slavery was the norm, including in the Christian world, for most of history. Being a slave didn't make you a lesser person. But you were still a slave.

                      Pity they had to move onto alcohol prohibition after slavery abolition and women's suffrage.

                    2. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

                      Yup.
                      Gay rights and woke came from that source too.

                    3. The Encogitationer   4 years ago

                      Yes, with Christianity, all humans are equally Originally Sinful pieces of shit in the hands of an angry Totalitarian God who demands absolute obedience to himself and his human son/doppelganger or threatens eternal Hell. Sounds like a real firm foundation for an Anti-Slavery position. /sarc

                      Yes, the philosophers of The Enlightenment did not extend their ideals to all of humanity, but ultimately, the extension of those ideals by subsequent generations taught in those ideals is how the U.S. and the West came to abolish slavery, Jim Crow, the subjugation of women, and is presently fighting against bigotry and hatred against LGBTQ+ individuals. Simple economic self-interest alone militates against anything that leaves human thought, ability, and energy suppressed, denied, and untapped, so the Free-Market Capital8sm brought by The Enlightenment was a boon to human dignity as well. Religion, the entire time, either adopted these Enlightenment ideals and took pencils and erasers to "holy" text, or more frequently, they fought the Enlightenment ideals tooth and nail.

                2. SQRLSY One   4 years ago

                  Brandybuck, good points all around! I'm close to finishing up reading the new book "The Dawn of Everything" by Graeber and Wengrow. https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0374157359/reasonmagazinea-20/ I am often amazed at how often they write of stuff (including slavery as you mention) and I go, "Oh, yeah, that squares with what I read of in the most ancient parts of the Old Testament". Somewhere in there it says "It is OK for Israelites to hold non-Israelite slaves for just about forever. But if you hold your fellow Israelites as slaves, ya gotta let 'em go after a while (7 years maybe?)"

                  Graeber and Wengrow say keeping NON-"Our Tribe" slaves was OK in many ancient tribes, but fellow tribesmen slaves got dicey. Their relatives a few blocks over, ya know, might get up in arms about it, after a while...

                  Anyway, good comments!

        2. Sevo   4 years ago

          TDS-addled spastic asshole gets flagged

      2. MT-Man   4 years ago

        I do think the basis of Brandybuck's idea has merit though, doesn't have to be wiki, but then again how do you get something like that to change when they currently don't have a reason to?

        1. Brandybuck   4 years ago

          It will change when people start leaving. But with everyone in a bubble, no one really sees it happening. Facebook filters out stuff people don't want to see. It takes a conscious effort to get out of a bubble.

      3. Brandybuck   4 years ago

        You're free to edit it and provide your references supporting your edits.

        Your problem is that you think something is true just because you want it to be true, and facts just get in the way. References are just annoyances.

        If Wikipedia has a bias, it's a bias towards the pedantic.

        Conservatives tried to start a "conservapedia", but it failed because it was explicitly biased and no one saw it as any sort of reference source. The death knell of an encyclopedia. It was on the order of creationists who published their own science textbooks without any evolution in it.

        1. The Encogitationer   4 years ago

          Conservapedia is especially awful in it's entries on Atheism and Secularism. You'd think a bunch of Christian Reconstructionists/Dominionists wrote the stuff.

          1. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

            Conservapedia is a grotesque joke and an exercise in rhetorical masturbation, even the name is retarded.

            But pretty much every Wikipedia page concerning American politics has been hijacked by editors working for the Democratic Party. Some of the pages on things like the American Psychiatric Association's DSM and the page on Ernst Röhm have been hijacked by special interest groups too.

            I think in the long run Wikipedia is going to have to figure out a way to stop small groups of politically biased editors for controlling content. I don't know what the solution is though.

        2. JesseAz   4 years ago

          You are amazingly ignorant. Have you ever read a discussion page dumbass?

          1. The Encogitationer   4 years ago

            I was too busy reading their gibberish on Atheism and all the immorality Atheists supposedly have a hand in to look for a discussion page.

    2. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

      The actual problem is not the fact checking, but the fact checkers.

      The problem is the fact checking because it's an impossible proposition. If Reason asked me to be the official hit & run comment fact checker, I would refuse to do it. Because I understand the nature of such an impossible task, let alone my own limitations. The problem is, there are people and institutions who believe they're suited to it and therefore gladly take up the mantle, and they are to be the most feared of all.

      The person who seeks power is least suited to it.

      1. Brandybuck   4 years ago

        Nonsense. I fact check all the time. Someone says Trump won the election, I fact check them with facts. Someone says 9/11 was an inside job I fact check them with facts. Someone says the moon landing was faked I fact check them with facts.

        What Facebook is doing is handing off their fact checking to people with an agenda. So they're fake fact checking to fit stuff into a narrative.

        1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

          You cannot state as Fact that Biden or Trump won the election. Not without a comprehensive audit, including signature audit, chain of custody audit and ballot validity for every district in the country. "Fact checking" does not mean "I read it on CNN", fact checking is doing original research. You're not capable of that, I'm not capable of that. So it's not "nonsense" that this kind of facebook "fact checking" is an impossible proposition.

          1. chemjeff radical individualist   4 years ago

            You cannot state as Fact that Biden or Trump won the election. Not without a comprehensive audit, including signature audit, chain of custody audit and ballot validity for every district in the country.

            Fine, then by that standard, no politician has ever "won" any election. Because no election has ever been subjected to that level of scrutiny or that high of standard.

    3. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

      But a possible solution exists. Rather than marking something true or false. Provide the fact itself with references. Wikipedia works

      Not according to its founder.

      "Can we trust what we read in wikipedia, the website you co-founded?"

      "You can trust it to give a reliably establishment point of view on everything?"

      1. mad.casual   4 years ago

        Again, Stossel, while well meaning, misses the mark. There are a host of possible solutions.

        For example, rather than marking something true or false, they could just do nothing. Or, rather than focusing on the truth of the statement, focus on the believability and its real-world criminal implications. They could take a poll of whether people thought it was true or not. They could date every statement and annotate it with "This statement hasn't been verified as either true or false at this time." and leave it as such, or not, for an indeterminate amount of time. Or "This statement is an opinion and can't be proven true or false." They could hold statements they believe to be truths in private until such time as they come across what they believe to be irrefutable proof that it's true before publishing.

        This list is by no means exhaustive.

    4. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

      Oh, and by the way, Snopes is TERRIBLE. All Snopes did was plagiarize establishment media articles and republish them with minor tweaks and present them as independent "fact checking".

      1. Brandybuck   4 years ago

        That exactly what 9/11 Truthers said. Because the biggest enemy to Truthers at the time was Snopes. And gosh, the founders were Democrats so of course they lie about the truth. But Snopes still presented facts backed by evidence. That the Truthers didn't like the evidence, it doesn't man Snope was making it up. It was the Truthers deliberately making up shit.

        1. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

          Just because the Truthers were wrong, doesn't mean Snopes wasn't frequently being decietful.

          That's like saying always believe Fox News because the Kos Kids are full of shit.

  13. Enjoy Every Sandwich   4 years ago

    I was just wondering: how does one get certified as a "fact checker"? It seems like an easy gig--it's not like you have to be right about what you say so long as it adheres to the party line.

    I'd like to retire and was looking for a gig that doesn't involve work. I was thinking of becoming an employee of the federal government but being a fact checker might be an option too, if social media companies offer decent benefits.

  14. mad.casual   4 years ago

    But there's no way Facebook can police all the posts, so it does destructive things like partnering with Poynter Institute "fact-checkers."

    Sorry Stossel but, incorrect. It can police all the posts. They could turn the servers off right now and ensure that not one further post goes out. Assuming the goal of policing all posts, they could moderate everything before publishing, like virtually every other media technology or company, except Reason, does is capable of doing.

    What it can't do is, in good faith, claim to be able to police all the posts and publish all the posts freely and without bias.

  15. sarcasmic   4 years ago

    Facts are determined by politics, not reality.

  16. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

    FACT: Lebron James, fully vaccinated, just got COVID.

    1. Don't look at me!   4 years ago

      Probably not wearing a magic cloth face covering.
      Or it’s the fault of someone not vaccinated.
      The breakthrough variant did it!
      We should lockdown the country!

      1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

        FACT: The only reason James got covid was because of the unvaxxed. The vaccine only works when everyone is vaccinated.

        FACT: James would be dead if he were unvaxxed. So the vaccine is both safe AND effective.

    2. Unicorn Abattoir   4 years ago

      I blame the Uhygurs. The CCP should round them up and put them in camps.

      1. Lebron James   4 years ago

        Educate yourself.

        1. Unicorn Abattoir   4 years ago

          You should have been the one on the helicopter.

          1. Nardz   4 years ago

            So true

          2. R Mac   4 years ago

            Lol.

    3. MT-Man   4 years ago

      Didn't he just get his shots like less than 2 months ago?

      1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

        No idea. According to the Atlantic, vaccine effectiveness peaks 3 weeks after the shot, then starts dropping. FACT.

  17. Unicorn Abattoir   4 years ago

    It partners with groups approved by something called the Poynter Institute, a group that claims "a commitment to nonpartisanship."

    Nonpartisan (n) - supporting both Democrats and leftists.

  18. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

    FACT: Conservative firebrand, Dan Bongino, fully vaccinated gets "painful breakthrough case of coronavirus".

    1. MT-Man   4 years ago

      I know, anecdotal completely but a guy I know got the pfizer shots this summer got covid and just got out of the hospital after 3 weeks.

    2. Brandybuck   4 years ago

      Vaccine does not confer absolute immunity. That's not what "immune" means in medicine. It rather promotes an immune response to make infection much less likely, and if infected, must less severe.

      Like people who get the flu after getting their flu shots. Which are vaccines.

      Look at the hospitalization and death rates for the vaccinated and unvaccinated. It's night and day. The people dying of COVID are the unvaccinated, the vaccinated to got infected is so rare they're all anecdotes like yours.

      1. MT-Man   4 years ago

        Brandy I see what your saying and can agree with much of what your saying. I'd add that maybe your focus of discussion should be on older folks 65+ almost 3/4s of the deaths are there and then I don't have the info on how much of the last 1/4 was due to other things such as preexisting issues or obesity. My anecdotal story is to say this isn't prefect lets not act that. But I'd also like to add that we should really be discussing groups affected more acutely (I'm saying society at large) not considering the whole population as primed for death as if they are a whale of a person with cancer and 85.

        1. MT-Man   4 years ago

          using this as age reference https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/

      2. Zeb   4 years ago

        Vaccinated getting infected isn't all that rare these days. More anecdotes, but I knew one person who got it before most people were vaccinated. I know like 5 who have had it, and gotten sick, all "fully vaccinated" in the past few months.
        The vaccines seem to be helping prevent severe illness, so that's great. But it's pretty clear now that it's not going to stop the virus circulating widely. And that there is little reason to be more concerned about a unvaccinated person who is not sick than a vaccinated person who is not sick. If anything, people are getting a false sense of security from vaccine requirements and avoiding the unvaccinated.

  19. Welchie Boy   4 years ago

    “Once they even proposed blacklisting conservative news sites.”

    What’s wrong with that?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/mattwelch/status/1102654202545913857?s=12

  20. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

    FACT: This is not a two-dose vaccine, it's a three dose vaccine. If you only received the two doses, you're unvaxxed.

    1. Tony   4 years ago

      Thank you for doing your part to encourage your peers to get their booster shots.

    2. Brandybuck   4 years ago

      It's like the flu vaccine, need to get it every year. Doesn't mean you're unvaccinated.

      1. Nardz   4 years ago

        Statistically it does.

      2. JesseAz   4 years ago

        Year. Every few months. Every month. On an IV. All the same.

  21. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

    FACT: more people have died from COVID-19 in 2021 than 2020, with a large portion of the population vaccinated.

    1. Tony   4 years ago

      FACT: Almost all of the dead were unvaccinated.

      Joe Biden specifically asked you to get vaccinated. The Republican party is asking you to die for its own political fortunes.

      I'd reconsider my deep love of the Republican party over something like that.

      1. Unicorn Abattoir   4 years ago

        There were zero covid deaths under the Coolidge administration, despite the lack of a vaccine.

        That's a fact. You can check it out if you like.

      2. mad.casual   4 years ago

        FACT: Fully-vaccinated people still contract, spread, and die of COVID.

        1. Tony   4 years ago

          It even has a picture:

          https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#rates-by-vaccine-status

          1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

            Unvaccinated people in all age groups had higher death rates than fully vaccinated people in the same age groups.

            So people who were vaccinated are dying of covid. Fact.

            Unvaccinated people ages 50 years and older had higher death rates than those in younger age groups, with the highest rates among unvaccinated people ages 80 years and older.

            COVID kills old, infirm people. Fact: Colin Powell, fully vaccinated, died of COVID.

            Fully vaccinated people ages 80 years and older had higher death rates than vaccinated people in younger age groups.

            Fact.

            Death rates among people aged 12-17 years are not shown on the graph due to low numbers of deaths from COVID-19 in this age group.

            FACT: Young people are at near zero risk of covid.

            1. Tony   4 years ago

              Just to be clear, your official position is that we should sacrifice the old and infirm because you are a petulant child who is scared of needles.

              Or is it just the pure eugenics and genocide that thrills you?

              1. Zeb   4 years ago

                That's a load of shit. Not doing everything you possibly can to marginally reduce other people's risk is not sacrificing them. It's normal behavior and how you behaved all of your life until the past 2 years. How many cold or flu viruses have you had that eventually got passed on to some old, sick person who then died?

                1. Tony   4 years ago

                  The argument is presented as-is: It's only the old and sick who are dying, so we don't need to worry about the pandemic.

                  I'm not a fucking monstrous genocider, so no thanks to that argument.

                  1. Zeb   4 years ago

                    No, that isn't the argument anyone is making.

                    It's the old and sick who are dying, therefore, we don't need to shutdown everyone's life and limit everyone's activities. We have done a terrible job protecting the vulnerable, and caused huge damage to everyone else. You are looking only at one side of the equation and that is as evil and monstrous as not caring at all.

              2. JesseAz   4 years ago

                We should all admit life is not free of death and stop pretending government can cure death.

                1. Tony   4 years ago

                  Yet I'm supposed to care about the oppression you feel by wearing a mask?

              3. Pepin the short   4 years ago

                We should sacrifice you.

      3. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

        FACT: Almost all of the dead were unvaccinated.

        In 2020: True

        In 2021: False

        1. mad.casual   4 years ago

          FACT: Every longstanding and prevailing model of vaccines, herd immunity, and virology fundamentally assumes that people grow more immune over time or the species dies.

          FACT: More people getting vaccinated and more people dying contravenes one or more of the assumptions in the above fact.

          1. Tony   4 years ago

            More people aren't dying. The peak of the death rate was in January 2021. Surely you're not blaming Biden for that.

            1. Zeb   4 years ago

              More people aren't dying. The peak of the death rate was in January 2021.

              Those statements are not contradictory. Area under the curve.

            2. JesseAz   4 years ago

              And oddly enough cases spiking in cold blue areas once again as January approaches dummy.

              1. Tony   4 years ago

                You could choose not to politicize a virus. That's a choice you could have made.

                Such a pity you've put your loved ones' lives on the line because you can't handle the fact that the Republican party is a failed institution.

                1. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

                  Lol, it was Biden and Kamala telling people you couldn't trust Trump's vaccine last year.

                  https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/563771-guess-who-undermined-public-confidence-in-vaccines

                  You guys politicized the vaccines, and it's recorded on media everywhere plain as day.

                  1. Tony   4 years ago

                    "She started it!" is certainly an argument someone could make before they go on being wrong about everything.

                    Are you being wrong about everything purely out of spite?

                    1. Mickey Rat   4 years ago

                      "Ignore the man behind the curtain", in other words.

                    2. mad.casual   4 years ago

                      "She started it!" is certainly an argument someone could make before they go on being wrong about everything.

                      Says the guy who just got proved wrong after saying "You started it!"

                2. Zeb   4 years ago

                  It was politicized the moment the government started bossing everyone around and telling people what they can and can't do.

      4. Make Democrats Extinct   4 years ago

        The Republican Party hasn’t asked us to do anything. There is no political anti vaccination movement. There is only an anti mandate movement. Anyone who wants the vaccine should get it.

  22. Tony   4 years ago

    So start your own Facebook. Jesus, where the fuck did the libertarians go?

    1. Brandybuck   4 years ago

      We read the articles but we tend to avoid the hog swamp.

      1. JesseAz   4 years ago

        You aren't a libertarian. Stop confusing yourself. You're a leftist doing cosplay. You ignore the government handouts and largesse granted to these companies because you're fine with soft fascism.

    2. Mickey Rat   4 years ago

      When someone does they will attempt to quash it in the crib, like Parler.

      9n the other hand, you accept the idea implicitly,,that Facebook is a shill for your side.

  23. Kivlor   4 years ago

    "Facebook Fact-Checkers Are Stifling Open Debate"

    Yeah, but as long as the boot we lick isn't the government's, it's not really a boot at all.

  24. The Encogitationer   4 years ago

    An entertaining anecdote on fact-checking:

    A woman in my store was trying to tell me that double-bagging of plastic bags actually makes groceries hotter due to the friction of the bags together.

    I asked her for a citation, and she said in her smarmy, Southern-Twangy voice: "Basic Science!"

    I then asked: "Sooo...what's the URL for the Web Site?"

    She replied: "Oh, it's not a Web Site. I mean it's basic science, like you learn in a class."

    I don't know what Gooberville Gummint Skoolz she learned this from, but my premise behind double-bagging plastic bags (besides the plastic bags being absolute crap) is that the double-bagging creates a pocket of dead air, which, in turn, insulates the contents and keeps hot food hot and cold food cold.

    It has ever thus worked as far as I can tell, so I'm sticking to it until a customer requests otherwise, and even then, I share what I know.

    Of course, she was also wearing a Micah 6:8 motorcycle-style T-shirt which says: "What doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" Which sounds sweet... until you see what Justice and Mercy God has planned for those he dislikes:

    Micah for Skeptics
    https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mic/intro.html

    Folks, the best fact-checker yet is to be found in the frontal lobes inside the confines of your own skull: Man's Rational Faculty operating on Logic and informed by evidence of the senses. Use that fact-checker well along with any resource you consult.

    1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

      Why would you ask for a citation... wouldn't it be better to just test the hypothesis?

      1. The Encogitationer   4 years ago

        I have tested the hypothesis multiple times in my 13+ years of practice and so far, have no complaints about "hot" groceries from double bagging with plastic and many compliments on my bagging technique. I've also never seen double-bagged plastic catch fire from friction, so I must be right about something.

        Meh! Gaslighters!

      2. mad.casual   4 years ago

        Without a labcoat and sheepskin? What are you, some kind of child-molesting anarchist?

        1. The Encogitationer   4 years ago

          Any9ne who seeks evidence and shows their homework is practicing science. The lab coats and sheepskin are simply insignia for more systematic and experienced practice.

    2. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

      What's interesting about your anecdote, is this is the kind of thing that could be "confirmed' in a Reuters/Snopes/Associated Press type of fact check.

      Hypothesis: Double bagging makes groceries hotter due to friction in the bags.

      Laboratory test. When vigorously moved, the friction in the bags was noted to cause a .000000001 degree Kelvin increase in temperature.

      Conclusion: Mostly true. There was indeed a temperature increase noted in laboratory tests. This increase was not considered significant, but the statement was correct.

      Addendum: A republican proposed the hypothesis.

      Reuters/Snopes/AP: False. Sure, there was a temperature increase, but it didn't matter.

      1. The Encogitationer   4 years ago

        One, I don't think she would know what a Kelvin is and prolly thinks it's the first name of a fellow surnamed Klein who made jeans for a jailbait model Brooke Shields.

        Two, I doubt that .000000001 Degree Kelvin would significant enough to spoil raw meat or melt ice cream, the metric most grocery customers use when judging the "hotness" of a bagging technique, insofar as they even think about it.

        Three, I didn't catch her party affiliation, though Republican may be the one.

        Finally, i think it was all a subtle attempt to degrade and diminish the gatekeeper of a transaction for items which she did not make and which she would not have without a store, trucking firms, ships, manufacturers, and all the associated employees. Something I've come to know and expect from people who were miseducated to belive they were "always right."

        As Boz Scaggs would put it, "I swear she must believe it was all Heaven sent."

    3. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

      You know the skeptics bible is largely horseshit and the claims in the annotations are far more dubious than the first chapter of Genesis. Some are so clearly made up that one wonders if it's not actually written by clergymen parodying teenage Youtube atheists.

      I was wondering where you got all your misinformation from. Particularly the Mithra nonsense. Mystery solved.

      Do yourself a favor and take an online first year religious anthropology course at any university.

      1. The Encogitationer   4 years ago

        No, I don't "know" this.

        The Skeptics Annotated Bible/Qu'ran/Book of Mormon is a pretty good primer on contradictions, errors of fact, absurdities, and moral atrocities of the covered texts.

        I will say 1001biblecontradictions.com and Sam Harris' graphic line of Biblical contradictions with arcs for each contradiction are even more extensive on documenting contradictions.

        Really, the number of Biblical contradictions varies with how narrow or specific the subject matter is, and the number of contradictions between The Holy Bible and other religious texts and the ever-growing body of scientific knowledge is even greater still.

        Taken together, all of these contradictions show all these "holy," "recieved" works are not very reliable for anything but entertainment and the intellectual version of popping bubble-wrap.

        1. mad.casual   4 years ago

          Taken together, all of these contradictions show all these "holy," "recieved" works are not very reliable for anything but entertainment and the intellectual version of popping bubble-wrap.

          And yet, here we are discussing the veracity of a thousand year old text in the context of your inability to refute, out of hand, a woman arguing about the friction generated by two-ply plastic.

          1. The Encogitationer   4 years ago

            My years of practice refutes it. See above.

          2. The Encogitationer   4 years ago

            Oh, and I wasn't attempting to refurte the woman.

            I just did a double-take at a claim that did not fit the context of my previous knowledge and which I have never heard of even in the most basic and elementary-level science texts or projects.

      2. The Encogitationer   4 years ago

        Oh, for the record, while I do use DuckDuckGo to find entertaining and thoughtful memes, I do not hang out on Reddit, nor am I a teenager.

    4. Mickey Rat   4 years ago

      I would tell her that the heat of friction is minimal, and you that insulation properties are also minimal. Double bagging only reinforces the weight capacity of the bags.

      1. mad.casual   4 years ago

        I mean, it's not even trivially difficult. Put a cold gallon of milk in the bag. Put your hand against it outside the bag and see how long it takes to see if it's cold. If it's anything less than the time it takes you to get the gallon out of the fridge and into the cart, onto the conveyor and into the cashiers hands, across the scanner, and into the bag, then the insulating and friction properties are immaterial relative to environmental variation.

        If you want to repeat the experiment and test the robustness of the conclusion with a multivariate analysis, repeat the process with a gallon of milk inside two bags.

      2. The Encogitationer   4 years ago

        Dead air in between enclosed objects on the inside and ambient temperature on the outside is the proven principle for both the Thermos Bottle and the carry-along cooler.

        Double bagging is an attempt to replicate the process and, to my finding, it works for the travel duration between shopping and home and even for slight delays in between in a heated auto.

        You are also correct that double-bagging ncreases carrying capacity, which was my original reason for doing it, but insulation is a happy by-product as well.

        1. The Encogitationer   4 years ago

          The material comes into play as well. A white or Mylar-coated bag reflects off heat from the Sun to great effect.

  25. Wolvenbear   4 years ago

    Debating the factual conclusions by independent "fact checkers" is essential, as even the best intentioned people have biases they bring to the table. To that end, well done to Stossel for calling out the error of their ways.

    Going further and saying that they are "stiffling debate" is, however, false. Facebook is private property. It opens its doors to the public, but still retains its constitutional rights of free speech, press, assembly, and property. No one has an inherent right to use Facebook, like any private property. It provides a service to enhance freedom of speech. It has the unmitigated right to shape the debate in any way it sees fit....even for purely bad or "wrong" reasons, because it IS their property.

    If a person is barred from using Facebook, they are not silenced. They just can't use Facebook. There are millions of other options available, and no one has a right to demand others subsidize their speech.

    The constant labelling of what Facebook/Twitter/et al do as "censorship" skews the debate. We should stop using the term.

    1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

      Going further and saying that they are "stiffling debate" is, however, false. Facebook is private property. It opens its doors to the public, but still retains its constitutional rights of free speech, press, assembly, and property.

      Both of those things are true. Facebook IS stifling debate. That is, in fact, their stated intention. However, they are also a private company and, by a reasonable libertarian perspective, have a right to stifle debate upon their own platform.

      Saying it's "false" that they're stifling debate is the same confusion that both Robby and ENB have been infected by, when saying that an action which is not "actionable under the first amendment" is "not censorship". Yes, it IS censorship, it's just not a first amendment issue.

      1. mad.casual   4 years ago

        Yes, it IS censorship, it's just not a first amendment issue.

        Absent "The 1A of the internet", agreed.

      2. Wolvenbear   4 years ago

        I'm sorry, the claim is false. Facebook does not silence debate outside of Facebook, and Twitter outside of Twitter. Since debate is still possible at the same levels, or greater, than before Facebook started, there is no silencing of speech,

        Claiming otherwise is wrong, no matter how you wish to argue it.

  26. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

    Here's a fascinating talk by Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying where they take a look at the facts surrounding higher death rates in 2021 vs 2020 with the background fact that we should be benefitting from both natural immunity (prior infections) and a vaccine.

    The probable conclusion is, that whatever it is we're doing from a policy aspect is making things worse, not better.

    1. Tony   4 years ago

      Bret Weistein has built a career out of whining about cancel culture and whining that between himself, his wife, and his brother, they deserve three Nobel prizes.

      That is one kooky fucking family. You'd think you'd cross-check their claims with actual experts.

      1. Make Democrats Extinct   4 years ago

        Ok, so when there is a new era of McCarthyism, and people like you are canceled, you won’t complain?

        1. Tony   4 years ago

          When did communists stop getting canceled?

          1. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

            Around 1917

      2. Diane Reynolds (Paul.)   4 years ago

        Evolutionary biologists failed to check with Chris Cuomo and Brian Stelter!

      3. Zeb   4 years ago

        No one is an expert on this stuff because it is still being analyzed and studied. Anyone with a good brain and a scientific background is capable of contributing to the effort.

        1. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)   4 years ago

          Play intelligent games, win intelligent prizes.

        2. Tony   4 years ago

          Bret Weinstein is the definition of a middling-to-low obscure professor. He got famous by instigating a whine-fest about wokeness. Same Jordan Peterson story all over again.

          You can safely ignore both of them, and there are plenty of real intelligent scientists to consult.

          1. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

            And they have and they've been warning everyone about the WHO's narrative. Like Dr. Robert Malone, inventor of the mRNA vaccine technique.
            But since Anderson Cooper and your Act Blue cribsheet didn't tell you otherwise, you think nobody has.

            You're a profoundly ignorant and sheltered person Tony.

            1. Tony   4 years ago

              Says yet another commenter outing himself as getting all his information about COVID from Bret Weinstein.

              I'm gonna ask for a pay cut if you keep doing my work for me.

          2. Zeb   4 years ago

            You need to address what they are saying, not dismiss them with an ad hominem argument.
            I have no idea if they are right at this point. But we have no idea who is right at this point. So it's worth listening to anyone making a coherent argument.

      4. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

        You'd think you'd cross-check their claims with actual experts.

        You mean like the time Bret Weinstein had the actual inventor of the mRNA vaccine technique, Dr. Robert Malone, on his show warning people about it? Is that actually expert enough for you, Clowntits?
        https://vimeo.com/569948031

        Oh Weinstein is also a professor with a PhD in Evolutionary Biology. I'm not sure if that trumps your virology degree from the University of CNN, but it might.

  27. raspberrydinners   4 years ago

    So move the fuck on then crybaby. Make your own goddamn platform where morons like you can bitch about stuff you know nothing about and no one can invade your safe space.

    What a bunch of snowflakes.

    1. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

      "inVenT yUr oWN iNtErNeT"

    2. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

      "Make your own goddamn platform"

      Like Parler? Oh wait...

  28. Sevo   4 years ago

    Several days ago, Ken mentioned that most of us do not make it a habit of purposely dealing with stupid people in meat-space, which argument convinced me that dealing with them on the web is no better. As a result, my mute key has gotten a workout and it is a great improvement avoiding the idiotic postings of our pile of lefty shitbags: Moderation4ever, Tony, Mike Laursen, White Knight, De Oppresso Libre, Sarah Palin's Buttplug, chemjeff critical individualist, killallredneck's, Brandybuck, Lord of Strazele, SQRLSY One, Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland, raspberrydinners and AmericanSocia1ist.
    This guy got their numbers; it is worth watching:

    "Bonhoeffer‘s Theory of Stupidity"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww47bR86wSc&t=2s

  29. weibullguy   4 years ago

    When it’s so easy to delete your Facebook account, it’s hard to understand why your panties are in a bunch about a personal choice you’re making to remain there.

    1. Vernon Depner   4 years ago

      You cannot delete a Facebook account. You can only deactivate it. They keep your data forever.

  30. Ajsloss   4 years ago

    Right?

  31. R Mac   4 years ago

    Dee will be along shortly to join the circle jerk.

  32. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

    If White Mike doesn't show up soon, sarcasmic's gonna have a new boyfriend.

  33. Idaho Bob   4 years ago

    Goddammit that made me laugh!

  34. Joe Friday   4 years ago

    Gee, US National Academy of Sciences vs Geiger.

    Tough call.

  35. MT-Man   4 years ago

    I thought he died it had been a while since I saw one of his "smartest contractor in the world" comments.

  36. Zeb   4 years ago

    Vs. 40 years of actual research. A few poorly designed "studies" do not overturn decades of data that is all pretty much in agreement.

    Most published science is wrong. New results should always be looked at with great skepticism.

  37. Sevo   4 years ago

    And asshole Joes hasn't been around much; fuck off and die, asshole!

  38. R Mac   4 years ago

    Yep.

  39. R Mac   4 years ago

    Do you even narrative bro?

  40. sarcasmic   4 years ago

    Yep.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42QuXLucH3Q

  41. Pepin the short   4 years ago

    I don’t think Ken has to chime in.

    You three idiots saying asinine drive by statements do more to prove progressives are useless weasels than any missive by him.

  42. Mother's Lament   4 years ago

    Top men and leaders.

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