Stealthily Wielding Caesar's Sword
Sohrab Ahmari's case for tradition conceals an authoritarian agenda.

Many a book has touted the importance of tradition in the pursuit of the good life. To my mind, the measure of such a work's success is the likelihood that it will persuade someone who comes in unconvinced.
The Unbroken Thread: Discovering the Wisdom of Tradition in an Age of Chaos, by the New York Post firebrand and Catholic convert Sohrab Ahmari, initially offers high hopes on this front. Ahmari is an excellent writer, and his first few chapters are able examples of the genre. To support the notion that there's more to knowledge than scientific fact or that a belief in God is logical, he employs the sorts of arguments and examples you might expect to find in, say, Bishop Robert Barron's well-regarded Catholicism documentary series. But the project is ultimately hampered by bizarre storytelling choices and sneaking signs that the author hasn't been entirely honest about his agenda.
Ahmari opens his chapter on filial obligations by deriding a real-life modern woman for the sin of accepting payment from her wealthy in-laws for professional services performed while helping them expand their charitable foundation. "Understanding what a huge amount of time and energy this would take," the woman explained, her parents-in-law had insisted on compensating her and her husband for their work. Ahmari, aghast, mockingly speculates that the couple might soon start "using Excel to track billable hours for time spent" on everyday family activities—and then uses his imagined scenario as evidence that we've collectively forgotten what we owe our parents. But it's not clear most readers would share Ahmari's horror at the idea of compensating family members for their labor, and that lack of shared intuition puts the whole section on shaky footing.
Likewise, it's hard to think of a poorer way to introduce the thought of St. John Henry Newman, a brilliant but by no means infallible 19th century theologian, than by presenting his life as a foil to the idea that you should "think for yourself." Newman was a prominent opponent of "liberalism in religion," which he defined as "the doctrine that there is no positive truth in religion, but that one creed is as good as another." Yet rejecting moral relativism doesn't mean forfeiting the right to exercise reason, question authority, and "test everything; retain what is good" (as St. Paul puts it in the Bible).
Still, Ahmari is on mostly solid ground while discussing lessons that might guide an individual in his or her pursuit of the good life. Things take a darker turn when government power enters the picture. This is epitomized by a chapter that draws on the life of St. Augustine to suggest that God wishes us to use "Caesar's sword" for religious ends.
It's worth acknowledging that some in the West today believe there should be an impermeable wall between faith and politics. Not merely between church and state: They don't just insist that the civil government refrain from picking winners and losers among the multiplicity of belief systems; they insist that individual members of society rely on secular ideas alone when engaging in political activities. As if, in a liberal democratic order, people's deeply held convictions could be scrubbed from the culture or the culture kept from bearing on political outcomes.
At first, this seems like the chapter's target. But the reader soon finds that Ahmari is casting doubt on church-state separation itself.
Augustine's masterwork, The City of God, was a response to the anti-Christian backlash that followed the Visigoth sack of Rome. Pagans "gathered in salons to wax nostalgic about the polytheist past, with its 'dear, old religion,' captured in the epic poetry of Virgil," Ahmari writes. "Before the rise of Christianity, they argued, Rome had gathered great wealth and vast dominions….And hadn't the Christian conversion now sunk that commonwealth into chaos?"
To combat these sentiments, Ahmari tells us, Augustine first demonstrated that the pre-Christian era at a practical level "was no golden age of peace, the neo-pagans' sweet nostalgia notwithstanding." But the bishop's "deeper project" was to argue that pre-Christian Rome was also an unjust society in principle: "Simply put, Rome didn't give God his due, and therefore its justice wasn't true justice."
Ahmari returns more than once to this Ur-sin, accusing modern Western societies as well as ancient Rome. But he's vague about what it would take to clear that bar. To fill out the picture, we have to turn to Edmund Waldstein, the Catholic monk whose ideas Ahmari is borrowing.
In his article "The City of God: An Introduction," Waldstein says the part Ahmari leaves out: "Justice consists in giving what is truly due to each, especially in giving the one, true God what is His due, by promoting Christian worship and suppressing pagan idolatry." The key problem with pagan Rome, as far as Waldstein is concerned, was not that it persecuted Christians when it should have let them alone; he thinks a just state can't adopt a neutral stance toward different forms of religious belief and practice. To the contrary, he says, it is obliged to support the true faith (i.e., the Catholic Church), ideally through a formal profession and certainly via the coercive powers available to it.
This interpretation of Augustine is far from a consensus view. It would be nearer the truth to say Waldstein represents one pole in a lively debate over how The City of God should be read, with those at the other end portraying the bishop as something of a proto-liberal.
But Waldstein has experience articulating fringe positions. The young monk is an intellectual leader of the "integralist" movement, which he says wants a "confessional state" or even an arrangement in which "it makes no sense to distinguish Church and state as separate spheres at all." In short, he has explained, integralism "sees the need of integrating [coercive political] power into the Church." Thus, when Ahmari repeats Waldstein's claim that, historically, "religion had to be fully integrated into politics," he's using loaded language.
This realization throws a different light on the rest of the book.
Consider Ahmari's moving reflection on the importance of taking time each week for "divinely ordered rest." It's one thing to exhort people to appreciate the spiritual benefits of "ritual leisure," of "meditating on old books, praying with friends and family members, and breaking bread with them" rather than working or shopping. It's something else to call on government to forcibly close businesses on the Sabbath (and, for that matter, to choose which day to recognize as the Sabbath). The chapter elides mention of a role for the state. But elsewhere, Ahmari has been forthright about his goals: "It's time to restore Sabbath blue laws," he recently tweeted.
A chapter on sex is disturbing enough on its own. By spotlighting the late feminist Andrea Dworkin's view that intercourse "as such" is degrading to women, Ahmari manages to elevate a perspective that is as alien to Catholic theology as it is to modern secular norms. His penchant for state coercion renders the further assertion that "what men and women do in the privacy of the bedroom is in fact inherently public" all the more alarming in its implications.
The case for using government power "to enforce our order and our orthodoxy," as Ahmari put it in a much-discussed 2019 article for First Things magazine, is made only obliquely in this book, via that messy gloss of Waldstein's take on Augustine. Yet the life of the great African bishop, bracketed from disputes over how his theological works should be understood, points to a different conclusion.
In St. Augustine, we have the story of a young man, miserably torn between a yearning to seek wisdom in higher things and the temptation to lose himself in bodily pleasures, whose restless heart finally finds peace in the Gospel message. It's a tale about long years of tearful prayer by his mother, St. Monica, and patient accompaniment by his mentor, St. Ambrose—a tale of conversion, not coercion, about the power of the truth, not Caesar's sword.
The Unbroken Thread: Discovering the Wisdom of Tradition in an Age of Chaos, by Sohrab Ahmari, Convergent Books, 320 pages, $27
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"Sohrab Ahmari's case for tradition conceals an authoritarian agenda."
I'm not familiar with this Ahmari character. But Stephanie Slade is in no position to criticize authoritarian agendas given that hers is the most authoritarian of all — she literally wants to turn this country into The Handmaids Tale by denying access to abortion care.
#AbortionAboveAll
#(OKMaybeAbortionIsSecondToOpenBorders)
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Not sure if you know what "literally" means.
Oh. Nobody has still not yet invented a sarcasm font?
Fuck Joe Biden.
Fuck Tulpa!
Fuck Dee.
Wear a cawndom.
It’s not gonna become a thing bro.
So desperate for it to be lol.
Mike's such a clown.
With the first story Stephanie proves herself too stupid or ideologically dishonest to understand that this hypothetical is the exact same thing progressive feminists have reduced motherhood to, a cash based transaction among supposed loved ones. Sorry, couldn't read her propaganda beyond there.
I really didn't understand what I perceive to be the argument.
It seems like Slade is arguing the the woman should have been paid for what were traditionally charitable acts, because feminism?
From a purely materialistic perspective, charity is a waste of your time so take the cash. But from a spiritual perspective, doing things for those in need with no expectation of recompense is good for your soul.
Now I'm a little confused by Slade's whole piece here, so I'm willing to accept that I misunderstood what she's getting at.
I think she was arguing that it is illogical to assume that even most readers would agree with the premise that the woman should have performed professional services for free just because they were family. She wasn’t performing the charity, just helping it expand in some fashion.
That seems perfectly cromulent with libertarian thought.
To Hell with Crom! 🙂
Conan The Barbarian--Arnie Prays to Crom
https://youtu.be/Qh9Aw5B4AJA
I understood the first puzzle, of the wealthy in-laws paying for family services, as being a practical matter, under the impression that the services rendered were not just weekend help with a wedding setup, for instance, but something taking considerable time that would leave the working family no time to earn a living.
As for the rest of it, a lot of blather over how many angles cold square dance on the head of a pin. Don't hurt people and don't take their stuff is good enough, but seemingly beyond all the authoritarians out there.
[Ahmari opens his chapter on filial obligations by deriding a real-life modern woman for the sin of accepting payment from her wealthy in-laws for professional services performed while helping them expand their charitable foundation.]
I think Slade is arguing for flexibility. If your parents need you to pick up some groceries, you should do that as a favor. If they employ you in the family business, you should get paid.
The idea that taking money while providing professional services is automatically a "sin" because your parents have hired you is about as authoritarian as it gets.
Some spank material for jeff, white Mike. Jfree, etc
Australia has gone full stazi. Jumping out of cars with weapons to take down the maskless. Choking people out for not wearing masks. And the politicians applaud it.
https://redstate.com/bonchie/2021/09/25/the-tyrannical-scenes-out-of-australia-grow-darker-and-more-disturbing-n447937
I'm uncomfortable thinking about how many American leftists are fapping to those videos.
Well the dumbasses gave up their guns. Nothing to stop the tyranny now.
It's somewhat interesting that he borrows from St. Augustine since I suspect there are fewer people familiar with City of God than are familiar with his famous prayer - "Lord, grant me chastity and continence - but just not yet." In other words, I'll do as I please now and worry about the consequences later. Installing a Church Police State demands that you do only what is permitted, when everybody knows it's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission. And isn't it God's job to forgive?
This is all very hypothetical, since the Pope and other leaders won't even impose Catholicism on Catholics, much less on non-Catholics.
Yeah, I'm more worried about Progressives imposing the 18th century on us by trying to save the environment.
I’m more worried about them imposing the early 20th on us.
More like the 8th century.
If you don't sin, Jesus died for nothing.
What if you never asked anyone to die for your "sins?"
What if you don't grant the premise that being born, thinking rationally and independently, seeking knowledge of right and wrong, or feeling sexual desires are "sins?"
And what if the Jesus of Christianity never existed?
Aren't there a ton of begged questions in that statement?
The entire Book of Job was about JHVH-1 wearing the Karen helmet-hair in Jigglypuff colors and telling Job: "It's not my job to do what you ask!" and "Do you know who I am?"
So she disagrees with Waldsetin, and with Ahmari's tweet.
She ought really to focus on the book.
The tweet was quicker to read.
Just to be clear, the book focuses on many traditions, not just the Catholic one.
There's a chapter on Confucius. The sabbatarian chapter is about some rabbi dude, whose name I really ought to remember. There's a chapter on Seneca. And, yes, a chapter on Dworkin.
It is unlikely that he endorsing *everything* those thinkers say. I don't think he wants a Saturday sabbath, or Confucian civil-service exams, or Seneca-style suicide.
He does want to interpose these thinkers against modern thought-stopping cliches of liberalism.
Superstition -- and the gullibility that is its precipitate and consequence -- is one of the principle reasons conservatives have lost (and deserve to lose) the American culture war.
Stick with the fairy tales, clingers, while your betters continue to shape our national progress against your preferences and efforts.
Also, stay home, take your shots (and a booster every 5 months), wear 2 masks, don't vape, stop eating so much salt, use paper straws even if they don't work, use less electricity from 4 to 9 PM when wind and solar aren't as available, but still drive an electric car or else, take public transit, except during the forever pandemic, let every immigrant in, protect women's rights and LGBTQ rights (except in Palestine), do everything reasonable and unreasonable if it saves even one child's life (unless that child hasn't been born yet, then protect the mother's convenience, but don't call her a mother, she's a birthing person). And do this all in the next 9 years before climate change destroys the planet, unless we can somehow save it with nagging speeches at the Oscars (which still have separate awards for men and women) or climate conferences in far off idyllic locales requiring Top Men to fly private jets to.
Our betters, indeed.
While Al Gore flies his private jet to Stockholm, you should ride your bicycle to there, if you feel that you really MUST go there!
Wow, that was the most concise, witty and intelligible thing I've ever seen Sqrlsy write.
Keep it up.
Even a blind sqrl occasionally finds a nut.
The thing that always struck me about Al and Tipper, more than any climate change hypocrisy is what a drugged-out mess their son was.
Sloppy Joe Biden does not need to fear that his multitude of botches, failures and fuckups will be overshadowed by Hunter, no matter how awful Hunter is.
Now you've spoilt my appetite for an old favorite, Manwich. I'll be sieving and filtering every can through a strainer to assure that there are no young girlie hairs in there. Thanks, Chumby.
What I read about their son when he was (at least thereabouts somewhere) in Middle School when he got busted for smoking pot, was that Al and Tipper basically said to the American media (White House pool), "If y'all EVER report about this, whoever did it, you'll never have White House access again." So we only learned about it from the British, who somehow got word of it. This is as I understand.
And THAT arm-twisting crap STINKS, IMHO! (It would be different, to me at least, if Al and Tipper hadn't been in the business of advocating that your and my kids get punished and disgraced for smoking "pot".)
And Tipper weren’t going around putting warning stickers on albums she didn’t approve of.
A real reporter would have reported the bust, *and* the threat.
He was allowed to withdraw instead of being expelled. Gore eventually retaliated against the headmaster a few years later, and had him fired.
“take your shots”
It is a very, very good idea to get vaccinated for COVID-19. You do not want to end up as a Herman Cain Award winner. Their stories of going from posting anti-vax memes to dying painful, lonely deaths on a ventilator are horrifying.
That depends on the person.
Sure. But for anyone 12 or older, with no special circumstances there’s no downside to getting vaccinated. It will keep you and others from getting sick, even possibly ending up dying a miserable death on a ventilator.
Except for heart inflammation and possible paralysis in some cases. For the negligible death rate for kids.
Except for the preventing others from getting sick. Biggest fucking lie of the year. They don't stop the spread. These stubborn stupid mother fuckers.
They reduce the odds of becoming seriously ill or hospitalized.
Don't try to use logic and reason to argue a person out of position they never used logic and reason to get into.
It will keep you and others from getting sick, even possibly ending up dying a miserable death on a ventilator.
That's easy, though--don't go to the hospital and they won't kill you by putting you on a vent.
Dance on that grave White Mike.
You and Rev. Artie both know there are many other alternatives, right?
While Kirkland is waiting for xis chiropractor appointment at the Rainbow Cafe, xe decides to troll the Reason comments. Xe sets down his GMO-free soy latte as xe stares at xis phone. Holding the crystal on a small magnetic chain around xis neck xe adjusts xis chakra and then begins to type*
"Superstition — and the gullibility that is its precipitate and consequence"
Kirkland is just still mentally warped from being dressed in ruffled panties before getting fucked in the ass by his mom while blowing his uncle. Admittedly, that's a rough thing for a 30-something to go through.
Who's are you calling superstitious - Confucius, the rabbi, Seneca or Dworkin?
Not Dworkin, because she's on your side. Maybe just the rabbi, Confucius and Seneca?
If you're smarter than Confucius and Seneca, to the point where you can call them dumb and gullible - means that you must be ever so smart.
Of course, Seneca died on Nero's order, so I guess you could say Seneca lost the culture war while Nero won.
The rev preaching "national progress" whilst his allies destroy our nation...
Is there any way that tradition, in the sense of inviolate protocols and predefined value judgements, is compatible with freedom? (Except perhaps the unique tradition of no traditions.)
On the other hand, tradition is a perpetual facet of authoritarianism. So fuck Sohrab Ahmari.
Conservatives are natural authoritarians, defenders of the established order.
Liberals are open to change, even if it's in the wrong direction.
Conservatives in America tend to be libertarian because America was founded by libertarians (compared to everyone else who founded countries.)
“Democracy is like a train, you get off once you have reached your destination.” - Erdogan
Once progs reach their destination they too will be defenders of the established orders. Many already are.
Pushing for change means nothing if the desired change is doctrinaire, and represents the desire to impose a new set of "traditions".
Most modern liberals are more authoritarian than conservatives, especially in their desired target scope: entire societies (and probably the globe).
Depends on what the tradition is. For example, tradition of community service and civility, personal responsibility is quite compatible with freedom. I’m becoming more and more convinced that libertarianism without going hand in hand with a sense of responsibility and civil society is just cover for stupid assholes.
Go. Fuck. Yourself.
Where the fuck is this sense of community service from the folks that do nothing but take, sandbag and consume? An entire growing class of people do nothing but vote for more handouts. The people paying for themselves, the lazy need tp step up and do more for “society?”
There is so much more that could be unpacked in your post such as civil society (BLM-Antifa riots, media ignoring it and progressives bailing folks out) and responsibility (supporting COVID restrictions on others, refusing to pay rent, refusing to work, living off benefits paid for by others).
Rich people get rich by providing goods and services to people. It's counterintuitive, but libertarian economics creates an incentive to do good for others. Because that's how you get rich.
I wasn’t thinking so much of economic freedom as all the freedom fighters here who are completely blind to how their refusing to get vaccinated affects other people.
Oh, them. Politics makes people stupid.
Lol. Again your lack of self awareness.
It doesn't effect you. See Israel. You are trading your freedom for a false sense of security abd demanding others to do what you want. It is you being the asshole here.
Demanding other people protect you from nature isn’t being a champion of freedom.
A tradition of "community service, and civility personal responsibility " is also compatible with National Socialism, monarchy, theocracy, Leninism, etc.
Especially the way you use it, which is as shorthand for "shut up, and do as you're told."
Try this outlook, Skeptic: tradition, and the high-trust societies that positive traditions help preserve, provides a safe environment where a focus on increasing individual liberty can flourish.
So freedom for those that conform to established traditions and stay in proper lanes?
You're right. To you, it doesn't make sense. Think about it a bit.
High-trustworthiness. FTFY.
Part of that is assuring that neither tradition nor change work against Individual Rights and Limited Government, but rather prrotect them.
OT: An interesting map of the US based on top-selling vehicles in each state.
Across the vast middle of the country, all three top-selling vehicles are pickup trucks. Mostly the Ford F-150 takes top spot with the Chevy Silverado and Dodge Ram following. Then there are the coastal states, where the top-selling vehicle is not a pickup truck and a handful of states where none of the three top-selling vehicles is a pickup - Hawaii, California, DC, New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut.
You might say, well, the degree of urbanization easily explains the lack of pickups, and you would probably be correct. But consider who chooses to live in big cities and who does not.
Let's try this again - it's a Zerohedge post, maybe those don't go through for some reason? https://cms.zerohedge.com/s3/files/inline-images/The-Best-Selling-Cars-in-America-By-State-Full-Size.jpg?itok=NdD9UC5O>Top-selling cars in each state.
I have no idea why that formatting is so screwy. I think I know how to post a link correctly.
Remove the ? And everything after it. Not needed. Just information on the referral site.
https://cms.zerohedge.com/s3/files/inline-images/The-Best-Selling-Cars-in-America-By-State-Full-Size.jpg
Even cars are for signaling these days.
A Tesla signals to the ladies that you are loaded AND that you care about the environment.
A pickup truck signals to the ladies that you can fix stuff AND that you have a job.
So they're both serving the same purpose.
If you look at the condition of my pickup truck, it signals to the ladies that I frequently have to haul sheetrock, plywood, and lumber. It kills me that you practically have to special-order a work truck. An 8 foot bed, two doors and a bench seat, an AM/FM radio and A/C, none of this crap like an 8-speaker CD player and 16-way adjustable heated seats, tinted windows, mag wheels, lift kits, LED lights underneath or a horn that plays 12 different tunes. I just need something that will get me, my tools and a shitload of material to the jobsite.
The new truck is for suburbanites that use it to haul the items they get from their semi-annual visits to Home Depot.
Folks also seem to have more haul-able toys such as ATVs, side by sides, jet skis, snow sleds, horses etc. An SUV can have a trailer hitch as can some cars. But the truck checks the box.
"An SUV can have a trailer hitch as can some cars."
It certainly can. I about spit up my soft drink when I saw a blinged-out, full-tint Escalade...towing a pretty hefty trailer. The trailer had a swamp-ish buggy on it, so another Yuppie toy, but still.
OTOH, seeing a Prius try to tow something is just sad. Even the tiniest of U-Haul trailers.
The Little Nash Rambler would eat a Prius for breakfast according to The Playmates!
The Little Nash Rambler (Beep! Beep!)--The Playmates
https://youtu.be/bMErG-idop4
That was actually a big reason I ended up getting a truck--because I found myself needing one with its capability about 3-4 times a year, and didn't want to rent a Uhaul for stuff like carrying green trash to the landfill. I got a basic F-150 without all the fancy cowboy cadillac shit, and it's been an absolute lifesaver as I've used it for "truck stuff" far more than I expected when I got it.
Does it also haul pipe to lay? Now there's a real signaller. 🙂
Cars were always for signaling.
Caesar’s sword? Seems like the book is Roman all over the place.
Ha!
Sohrab Ahmari would be glad to take up Ceasar's Sword...unless there's a revival of Hirahito's good ol' Buddheo-Shintoist Values in Japan. Then, Ahmari will have a yen for a Samurai sword.
Adult-onset superstition is a terrible affliction.
Choose reason. Every time. Be and adult.
Or, at least, please try.
Are you implying Barack Obama's decision to embrace Black Liberation Theology as an adult was some kind of "affliction"? That seems racist.
#LibertariansForBLT
#BLT no mayo
Kirkland is a giant racist.
I don't think Reason staff have any room to talk...
Let he who is without sin...
Nardz how can I know if I lied about you or slandered you if you won’t correct me?
Piss-off you antisemitic, Mormon-bashing piece of shit.
Go lynch another dinger or whatever you do to pass the time when you're not trolling here.
Please cite me being anti Semitic or stop calling me it.
Please cite me being racist or don’t claim I am.
Oh settle down jeffsarc.
You Trump worshipping traitors will never realize we outnumber you.
So do viruses, and I'm not worried about it, redneck.
Why do you hate America?
Best you've got is a GWB stump speech.
Are you a cop seat belt?
It’s funny accuse me of racism when you use the D word because it sounds like N word.
You’re a terrible person. I’m glad a piece of shit like you feels the need to lie about me.
Redneck doesn't like the R word. He's sensitive.
Why would I have a name like this if I was a redneck?
Self hate, or just insanity.
Again you must have me confused with someone else.
Again, no, I don't.
Pretty sure you do. Are you a cop?
Nardz must of muted me.
Everyone has muted you screetch. Except me because I like abusing you.
I like it when you abuse me too seat belt. I’ve always taken pity on the intellectually disabled like you and Nardz.
That explains your choice in sexual partners.
Again you have me confused with someone else.
That's what you said to the cop, redneck.
I fucking avoid pigs like the plague.
I fucking hate pigs.
Oink.
Are you a pig?
The urge to boss other people around is hard to resist.
Especially once you're elected.
Can you honestly imagine Reason running something like this:
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/problem-not-just-xi-jinping-it-communism
I wonder if China is about to collapse like the USSR did. I suspect their booming economy has been a mirage for a long time.
A history of Rome I read some time ago mentioned in a side bar that Rome had curiously few laws and regulations for most of its history, both Republic and Empire. Rape, murder, etc were considered family affairs for families to avenge or punish. It was until the 200s sometime, after the last "good" emperor, that a followon, who had been put in office by the then-usual practice of bribing the imperial guards, had thought the way to restore imperial majesty was to create a zillion laws governing marriage, store hours, and all the zillion little things beloved of busybodies everywhere. It occurred to me that it was a last desperate gasp of the incompetent; that with the frontiers frozen by geography, there was no other way to put your mark on history.
It seems to me a fine summary of today's governmental problems. With no frontiers left, what's a government to do except regulate trivialities? Xi seems in the same boat: with the economy increasing by leaps and bounds, there is no way to improve his place in history except dredge up the nine dash line, clamp down on dissent, and show how strong he is. All of which will undo the economic boom which gave him a kick-ass military and influence all over Africa and the MidEast.
Same thing with climate catastrophe alarmunists. No way to leave their mark on history except clamp down on the free markets and liberty in general which created the modern world.
One of my reasons for thinking Xi and the CCP are heading for collapse is their naval splurge. We are led to believe two conflicting stories, from their own evidence: that hypersonic missiles will make mincemeat of US carriers, and that carriers are the future of the Chinese navy. Countries don't flail around with expensive policies like that except to distract the populace from domestic troubles. Look at Biden and AOC and their Greed Raw Deal.
China is a territorial empire, like Germany, like Russia. Their economy may depend on oceanic trade, but their main territorial integrity problems are land borders -- Russia mainly, but also Mongolia, Tibet, Vietnam and the rest of southeast Asia. Their nine dash line is a joke, legally and morally, practically unenforceable.
"I wonder if China is about to collapse like the USSR did. I suspect their booming economy has been a mirage for a long time."
Agreed, but the problem is that I don't think their implosion will have as soft a landing (for the West, that is) as the USSR's did. There had to be some very sleepless nights, tracking down the toys and the NCA ostensibly controlling them, spilling out of the destruction of that colossus.
Even if US banks and investment firms aren't as intertwined as I suspect they are, and therefore won't collapse too if the Chinese economy implodes, I'm concerned about what exactly the small ruling cadre at the top of the CCP does to ensure their either continued dominance or continued survival.
The 00 of downside dark swans has gotten a lot more dangerous in the last ten years, than mere nuclear weapons.
You think they would cough up something that would be nothing to sneeze at?
What you did there, I see it.
Sohrab Ahmari's case for tradition conceals an authoritarian agenda.
I'm not informed as to the specifics of Ahmari's particular brand of authoritarianism, but given the shit show liberalism has delivered to our doorstep, why should I automatically regard an authoritarian agenda as an intrinsically bad thing? There's a lot to be said for order and predictability in your political institutions.
Catholicism is inherently authoritarian. Protestantism is not. Catholics have the Pope who speaks for God and a strict hierarchical structure for the Church and you better do what you're told or you're going to Hell. Protestants believe God speaks to each of us and and it is up to each of us to decide how we should live our lives in a godly manner.
The problem with Protestantism is that it encourages each of us to follow our heart. Do what you feel. Some of us think it might be better to follow your brain and do what you think. There's a reason tradition and custom exist, it's what our ancestors found to work. Certainly there's no reason to cling to tradition and custom just because they are old, but neither is age a reason to discard them. Just because it was old dead white guys who came up with these ideas is no reason to assume they are no longer relevant. Prudence would suggest not discarding things unless and until you know what purpose they served by being there in the first place. But that requires using your brain to think about it rather than following your heart and doing as you feel.
This.
Also, evangelical non-denominationalism is probably the most libertarian of the Christian ism's. It's up to the individual believer to interpret the bible and all believers are priests.
That's also the reason why it's chock full of televangelists and snake-oil salesman too. No rules to keep them out.
ML isn’t religious. He just loves kissing Conservative Christian ass.
You've been down in Idaho trolling for LDS chicks again, haven't you redneck?
I know you’re slow seat belt, but I felt I’ve made it clear I hate Mormons and shithole Idaho.
Your dick keeps points there. Maybe it's slower than you.
Are you Mormon seatbelt? It would explain your low intelligence, treason, and hatred of freedom.
Are you a pig eater, redneck. I think you like them.
“Pig eater?”
I like pork.
I fucking hate cops. Are you a cop seat belt?
Seriously you’re fucking dumb if you’re proud to live in the ugly, shithole part of Idaho surrounded by Mormons.
You’re a terrible person.
Coming from a shit eating Oregon dumbass, that's a complement.
Oregon is much better than Idaho.
You’re surrounded by Mormons.
And yet you've got the hots for my sister, redneck.
Oh good, responded to my own post. This stupid forum...
Dumbass
"Protestants believe God speaks to each of us and and it is up to each of us to decide how we should live our lives in a godly manner."
With a few exceptions and qualifications.
https://postbarthian.com/2018/10/05/michael-servetus-saint-heretic-and-martyr-part-3-a-radical-theology/
https://www.boston.gov/news/notes-archives-mary-dyer-executed-onthisday-1660
Tyere is authoritarianism in both. Catholicism's authoritarianism is the authority of a Pope. Protestantism's authoritarianism of a Book. They are both ultimately human authorities. Neither values independent human reason unsubordinate to faith and so-called divine revelation.
The liberal authoritarianism is just acceptable norms. If not accompanied by mean tweets it really isn't authoritarianism. Remember. Federalism under trump was authoritarian because of mean tweets.
I posted this yesterday under another article, but everyone needs to read it.
According to these new court documents we learn that George Soros himself, paid for his own investigator to work for the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee to plant the Trump-Russia story, and John McCain let him do it.
George Soros personally paid for an investigator, former FBI analyst Dan Jones, to frame Trump through his political organization called The Democracy Integrity Project (TDIP).
Jones’s job was to look into the DNS data that purported to “prove” links between Trump and Russia on behalf of McCain and the committee. Those so-called “links” turned out to be regular mass marketing emails from Trump Properties sent worldwide – including Russia and everywhere else. McCain knew explicitly what Jones was actually up to, but used them to create “inferences” and a “narrative” he needed so his committee could attack Trump.
Warmonger McCain and Soros actually worked on this fraud together, and Soros paid for it, and that fed four years of psychotic bullshit and the Mueller investigation.
It’s all starts in the link. Everyone should read it.
It is the same tact the left has taken with local courts, D.A. offices, and election boards. They save local governments money by providing free labor. But to keep the free labor the government agencies need to push the Soros agenda.
Just a week ago Shrike was calling the very idea that Soros was involved with the Russian hoax a conspiracy theory.
It certainly was a conspiracy but he was lying about Soros's involvement.
Shrike lies. There. That's it. It's wholly unreliable for anything else. Expecting it to do anything else is silly.
It will never admit you're right. On anything. No matter how hard you argue.
Damn, you still on about the Russian Collusion story? That's all old news and we need to move on. What's important now is to see if we can identify who exactly the insurrectionists were that beat Officer Sicknick to death with a fire extinguisher (and why Congress has failed so shamefully to award this man the Congressional Medal of Honor he so richly deserves) and to investigate the Border Patrol over their secret KKK membership as can be assumed from their obvious glee in beating and whipping and trampling with their horses all those poor black people. That and the obvious racism behind the extinction of the dinosaurs and subsequent rise of the mammals.
It’s Not Real
It’s Russian Disinfo
It’s Real But Doesn’t Matter
It Matters But Not Very Much
This is Old News <-- YOU ARE HERE
Shut Up Racist
Shrike will be around to call everyone a racist at three.
McCain is one of the reasons I wish I was religious; it would give me great comfort to know that that SOB was burning in hell.
Chris Cuomo just got #MeToo'd... and there's hard evidence of it.
Is that really a surprise?
I see what you did there.
Yeah, but will the evidence stand up in court?
The case for tradition always conceals an authoritarian agenda
Well, we KNOW the case for progress always does, so where does that leave us?
I could understand how, if you were as shifty and immoral as JFree, your history would be oppressive.
Do you mean progressivism, not progress?
"They insist that individual members of society rely on secular ideas alone when engaging in political activities. As if, in a liberal democratic order, people's deeply held convictions could be scrubbed from the culture or the culture kept from bearing on political outcomes."
----Stephanie Slade
This American Life has now become too activist to be interesting most of the time, but there was an excellent episode recently about this very thing--and something we've been talking about in comments for a while. Listen to this:
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/748/the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it
It's about a guy who was an evangelical outreach guy, doing bible studies and saving people's souls on college campuses, etc. As he grew up, married a non-believer, and had kids, and became more educated, his faith seems to have waned, and he stopped being an evangelical outreach guy. He found something better. After seeing An Inconvenient Truth, he stopped worrying about saving the world from hellfire and became a fanatic for saving the world from global warming.
He was as awful to his kids on climate change (or worse) as the bible-thumpers I grew up with in Maryland and Virginia. It wasn't just that he was emotionally abusive towards his kids for being insufficiently committed to the cause of global warming. His kids were having nightmares about the world burning up from global warming (and it being their fault) like the kids I grew up with used to have nightmares about Jesus coming back and us being left behind. He lost his kids over climate change fanaticism.
Along the lines of what Slade wrote above, expecting people to separate religion from culture is absurd. It isn't just that religion is as fundamental to culture as language, it's also that the neocortex in our brains (what makes us human) evolved to harness the advantages that religion confers, which is about group cohesion among other things. Religious like thinking is hardwired into our psyche. A lot of people have a problem thinking of themselves in religious terms because they don't believe in the supernatural, but hard wired religious thinking isn't about the supernatural per se.
The designation of something as supernatural is largely a function of perspective--when an outgroup is looking in at another group. For the people on the inside, what outsiders perceive as supernatural may be part of their natural world from their own perspective. When I was ten years old, I didn't know anyone who didn't believe that God, angels, and demons were as real as Uzbekistan. To those people, demons were as much a part of the natural world as magnetic north or the ionosphere.
Because you don't share what you call other people's supernatural beliefs doesn't mean that they see their own beliefs as supernatural per se. Plenty of true believing Christians will laugh at those who believe in psychics, UFOs, and energy crystals. Meanwhile, if you believe that the world is heading for a global warming apocalypse, and this belief drives your willingness to emotionally abuse your kids because of their sins against the environment, you're no different from an emotionally abusive Christian fundamentalist--certainly not just because you believe the global warming apocalypse is real.
The Akkadians, the Mayans, and the Druids could accurately tell you when it was a good time to plant by looking at the way their religious buildings interacted with the stars and the sun. It's no longer possible for most of us to believe in those religions anymore the way people did back then. Some Aztecs would willingly offer themselves as sacrifices. The Vikings apparently used to do that, too. These days, religions don't usually ask for so much. They just want you to sacrifice your standard of living or your supposedly privledged place in society for a greater religious cause.
To get a religious fantastic like that in modern society, like in a radical ecologist, the beliefs you instill in them need to be free from the supernatural (from their perspective), which is what you get from climate alarmism. There may be no better description for a religious fanatic than someone who truly believes that the science is settled. Nothing more to learn! The time for discussion is over. It's time to act. And the only limit to what we can achieve is the selfishness of sinners.
Regardless of whether your particular vision of the apocalypse is supernatural, from your perspective, you also want to believe in a paradise we could have if only we were willing to make the sacrifices. You want to believe that the sins of your enemies are the problem, now that you've purged your own, and that your life would have more significance if you could make a difference and help to save the world. You want to be a part of something bigger than yourself . . .
It's just the religious impulse. There's nothing wrong with feeling that way. It's part of having a neocortex. Yes, it drives a big part of the culture. No culture survived into the historic record without some form of religion. Think about that. Humanity goes back 150,000 years, and the only cultures that survived into the historical period (about 6,000 years ago), from the uncontacted people in the Amazon to the walls of Babylon, all had a neocortex, some form of religious belief, and opposable thumbs. Why don't we tear ourselves up over our opposable thumbs the same way? We don't need to grasp branches anymore!
Religious belief isn't acting like a bonobo. Separating religion from culture is bifurcating what it means to be human.
I’ve long observed that folks who leave a group and then describe its members negatively generally are describing themselves and they haven’t actually changed, just switched allegiances. So if someone tells you how evil Mormons are (to take one group) they are telling you how evil they were when they were Mormon, but the intolerance and bigotry they point to are still with them, just now in service of their new team.
You see it with professional athletes who are a cancer in the locker room. When a player is on his fourth team, and he has the same problems in the locker room of his fourth team as he did with the first, it's time to start considering that maybe the problem wasn't with team 1, team 2, team 3, or team 4. Maybe the problem was always what was in the player's head--and everywhere he went his head went with him.
So he didn't become more educated....
And I take it his sophisticated, urbane,
educatedcredentialed spouse put up with this?At least tell me I'm wrong about that.
Spoiler Alert!
She left him because he was emotionally abusive towards the kids, and even after losing his family, he can't give an interview to the reporter without flying off the handle about climate change again. It's typical religious fanaticism. It's like he became a rabid, true believer in a cult. He was dominating his kids weekends by driving them to attend climate rallies and make speeches fighting for climate change.
His children won't have anything to do with him now. In the podcast, one of his daughters attempted suicide over the way he responded to her telling him that she didn't want to do climate activism anymore. He got arrested for sabotaging the Keystone pipeline after promising his kids he would give up activism in exchange for his daughters being willing to see him again, and that's when they cut him off for good.
I miss the old gods.
The new gods want us to sacrifice ourselves for someone else. The old gods would sacrifice themselves for you!
I didn’t even know Ron was once married and has kids.
A chapter on sex is disturbing enough on its own. By spotlighting the late feminist Andrea Dworkin's view that intercourse "as such" is degrading to women, Ahmari manages to elevate a perspective that is as alien to Catholic theology as it is to modern secular norms.
I'll bet you more people have heard of Andrea Dworkin than this guy.
He up-talks Andrea Dworkin. It's tempting to ask what else do you need to know?
Except that it gets worse. He was raised in Shia Iran under the Ayatollahs and although he was only nominally a Shia Muslm, he admitted to being fascinated by stories of sacrifice by Hussein Ibn Ali, a martyr of Shia Islam.
Later, after his family fled to the U.S., he was a Marxist and a Nietzschean Nihilist, then became Roman Catholic in 2016.
Sohrab Ahmari has hit every branch of the authoritarian ugly tree partially falling down, and partially swan-diving down, so his stances really should be no surprise.
I can just tell by the way that this man would shiv anyone in a minute if ithey got in the way of whatever Utopian vision he supports. Steer clear, Stephie, and everyone else too!
CDC just called asked about vaccination status.
Gee I wonder where he could have ever gotten an idea like that
Sounds like somebody was being persecuted under the Roman empire. That strategy of laying low and following the law seems to have paid off for Christians. 2,000 years later, and to attain power in Italy, it probably still helps if you at least pretend to be a Christian. You're not arguing with success, are you? Could that strategy have been any more successful? Are you aware that Christianity triumphed over Rome?
"That strategy of laying low and following the law seems to have paid off for Christians. "
Not the ones in Japan. They survived hidden for hundreds of years and practice openly today. Their laying low never got them anywhere close to ruling Japan. Christians in Korea and in Khubla Khan's China came closer, thanks to American influence in the one and Kubla Khan's mother in the other.
Christians have been terrible at expanding into Japan. Convicts on death row grasping at the promises of eternal life have been about the only success stories for Christian missionaries in Japan. (Muslims aren't much better if that cheers you up.)
Yep, from equally authoritarian Paul, who would have condemned The Founding Fathers for standing against King George III and against slaves and Abolitionists standing against the Southern Plantation.
Correftion Addendum: Paul would have been against slaves and Abolitionists, that is.
Which has been fully borne out in every society that embraced Enlightenment pluralism. Christianity has been viciously suppressed and subordinated to secular humanist supremacy even in the civilized west while in the Utopian communist societies the need for cultural suppression of Christianity was obviated by simply slaughtering Christians en masse. That you are a theologically illiterate whore whose imagined religious principles are subordinated to your true religion of Marxist dialectical secular humanism doesn't mean all Christians are or should be.
I don't think she's a whore.
Man at the bar: If I paid you $5M, would you convince my friends you had sex with me?
Woman: *considers* Sure.
Man at the bar: If I paid you $500, would you have sex with me?
Woman: What?!? You scumbag. I'm not a whore.
Man at the bar: We already established that you'll tell people you had sex for money. Now we're just negotiating.
Pro tip: you can buy sex for a lot less than $500 if you approach a real whore instead of sex random stranger 'at the bar.'
If you're the one paying, it's not really a pro tip then is it?
You're not paying for sex, you're paying for her to leave.
I don't think Stephie is a whore either.
I'm just surprised whenever she's surprised and holding her hands under her armpits to discover that authoritarians can both be religious and exist within her Holy Mother Church. Wake up and smell The Burning Times, Stephie!
So if Christianity is subordinate to Secular Humanism, then why is there a Christian house of worship on every corner in the U.S.?
There are 8 Protestant Christian churches within a 1 mile radius of my apartment, a Mosque about another mile away, a Jewish Synagogue a few more miles away, a Roman Catholic Church a couple of miles more, and a Buddhist center in a town next door. Twenty miles away in a bigger city, there are two Unitarian-Universalist Churches, Hindu ashrams, more Churches, Synagogues, and Mosques, as well as New Age bookstores.
We are full to the gills in the U.S. on churches and religious assemblies, none of whose doors I brighten and none of whom I seek to subordinate or initiate coercion against in any way. As long as they are on their own time and Dime and don't seek to coerce me either directly or by law, we're good.
Straw.Man.Toppled.
You try so damn hard, and really don't have the intellect you think you do.
I have enough intellect to know what persecution is, and simply rejecting or criticizing a religion is not the same as persecution.
Andrea Dworkin was one of the most influential figures in modern feminism. Her perspective is certainly not alien to secular norms. Perhaps to your enfeebled, ignorant mind that bloviates on subjects you have never studied and do not comprehend. This is the same gambit being played with CRT. "Oh it's just a fringe campus theory!" Yet one that is guiding all aspects of the entire federal government, including the military, as well as federal, state, and local school curricula.
Perhaps if we didn't elevate "what men and women do in their bedroom" to the focal point of culture and government so that specific deviant sex acts and abhorrent practices like men jacking off in front of women and girls in public restrooms and changing areas are now ostensibly protected under the law you'd have some kind of a point about the disturbing prospect of a theocratic bedroom police. But you're late to the party, and short a stack of IQ points. If capturing the public institutions is necessary to prevent Christians from being persecuted, ostracized, even beaten and killed because of their faith, then so be it. Christians didn't start it.
“Oh it’s just a fringe campus theory!” Yet one that is guiding all aspects of the entire federal government, including the military, as well as federal, state, and local school curricula.
That was the argument up until about 2014. That goalpost has moved. It's no longer a fringe campus theory, it's the central core of your HR department's "sensitivity training seminar".
"This is the same gambit being played with CRT. “Oh it’s just a fringe campus theory!” Yet one that is guiding all aspects of the entire federal government, including the military, as well as federal, state, and local school curricula. "
Both are guiding a lot more than that. Popular culture is shot through with it, see the Oscars or Sci Fi's Hugo awards. There are good stories and movies, they are these days invariably informed by race, sexuality, race and sexuality and socialism. Same with the corporate world, which with its departments of human resources, bumps up the attention to race and sex, as a form of compensation for going east on the anti capitalism.
As for Christians being persecuted, I say 'bring it on.' Christians have a long history of persecution from many quarters, even themselves, and they go slack and stupid when they're tolerated. Persecution brings out their most noble qualities, and gives them the opportunity to live up to a challenge courageously and with dignity.
As for Christians being persecuted, I say ‘bring it on.’ Christians have a long history of persecution from many quarters, even themselves, and they go slack and stupid when they’re tolerated. Persecution brings out their most noble qualities, and gives them the opportunity to live up to a challenge courageously and with dignity.
Makes sense, aside from the whole "persecuting innocent people is morally wrong" thing.
Are you suggesting the church benefits from something what is morally wrong and not related to banking and finance?
No. Don't give Christians a delusions of martyrdom complex any more than they already have.
You said "race" and "sexuality" twice. Do you like race and sexuality? 😉
Andrea Dworkin was one of the most influential figures in modern feminism. Her perspective is certainly not alien to secular norms.
Anybody who says "all sex is rape" is alien to a Hell of a lot of people's norms, whether religious or secular, Male or Female or Trans, Straight or LGBTQ+, even many Feminists...but strangely enough, she's not alien to Sohrab Ahmari. So is that how he gets off?
If capturing the public institutions is necessary to prevent Christians from being persecuted, ostracized, even beaten and killed because of their faith, then so be it.
Nobody's doing this in the U.S.A. without being prosecuted, just like any other criminal. Come down off your cross!
"Anybody who says “all sex is rape” is alien"
In all fairness, she probably gives sex between lesbians, the L in the LGBT, a pass when it comes to sex. I doubt Ahmari is as generous.
Have you taken a good look at Andrea Dworkin? Dworkin prolly says "all sex is rape" because she has to engage in rape to get any, including from other women.
Libertarians have a blind spot for the obvious..they support (at least most of them) the free market and very limited govt but they don't understand for a free market to work well you not only need a very limited govt, strong natural rights but something else that is the glue that keeps it all together...strong social values. Honesty, integrity, hard work, and yes strong small units like the family and traditional view on pregnancy, divorce, and so on. One key point missing by left libertarians is how social outcomes should never drive govt policy or any policy for that matter. A example..if you want to be a pilot there are specific skills/tests you need to master..you can't just drop the standard so you get a social outcome. What to be an engineer you have to take calculus...and pass. Its one thing to be for a free market but its another to subvert the culture we have built in the last 200 years to make some groups feel better...or to get certain social outcomes (Fed's policy of low interest rates driving the subprime disaster). I think 50 years from how if the US even exists people will ask how the hell could we have approved this political correct, wokism, and degeneracy (where pedos are thought by the elites as acceptable behaviour or having a 5 year old boy get his testes removed because well he woke Mom is certain he identifies as a girl). This degeneracy is a sickness destroying the country.
"strong social values. Honesty, integrity, hard work, and yes strong small units like the family and traditional view on pregnancy, divorce, and so on."
Our economy is increasingly bound up in harvesting and commodifying our attention to all that is base and frivolous. Is that your idea of a free market?
Honesty & integrity are just forms of respect for strong natural rights.
As for hard work, one of the advantages of free markets is that if you want to drop out of the rat race and live a simple, low-cost life, then it's perfectly OK to do so under free-market libertarianism. A "traditionalist-friendly" version of this would be women quitting their full-time jobs (and thus reducing their household's income) to become stay-at-home moms.
"A “traditionalist-friendly” version of this would ..." would mean putting your money where your mouth is. You want to eliminate abortions? That's means providing the right incentives for women to let their pregnancies go full course. In a Libertarian free market society that means spending money. Whether by the government or other organizations.
Well, actually, libertarianism wouldn't support either government-funded abortions or government-funded raising of children either.
Otherwise, the jist of what you're saying applies. Those who are Anti-Abortion do have a tall order to fill, to the tune of $450,000 per child from birth to age 18.
The subsidies would stop when the child is born and put out for adoption. That was my idea. And if we are serious about putting an end to abortion then government involvement might be inevitable.
I fail to see what is "authoritarian" about letting Catholics live governed by Catholic laws.
Contrary to what Slade thinks, maximizing individual liberty under a laicist state is not libertarian and it doesn't maximize liberty.
"I fail to see what is “authoritarian”
Have you tried re-reading the article?
Search for "The Inquisition" and see where religious government inevitably leads.
Catholic means universal. It is never just confined to the insides of a Church. Moreover, Christianity in general is world aspiring in scope.
Contrary to what Slade thinks, maximizing individual liberty under a laicist state is not libertarian and it doesn’t maximize liberty.
What could be more libertarian and libertarian than that? Have you been dipping into the Orwell a little too deeply?
Yeah, the charitable work supporting the wealthy in-laws' efforts was "uncompensated".
*sigh*
Yeah, except for the contacts that helping with the charity (with very friendly leadership) could produce. And, of course, those wealthy in-laws are going to presumably be leaving a sizeable inheritance. But, other than all that, totally uncompensated.
Time is important to some people. You'll never get it back, no matter how large the compensation.
Then she keeps her precious time and she and hubby forego the compensation (well, maybe not hubby if he dumps her and marries someone who'll play the game). Where's the injustice? Where's the "uncompensated"?
"Then she keeps her precious time "
She gave her time willingly. What more can you ask of her?
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