Australia

The Dangerous Dream of Zero COVID in Australia

The government is ignoring the costs of lockdowns—for lives, for liberty, and for the economy.

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We often hear that "if it saves just one life, it must be worth it," no matter the cost. But COVID lockdowns have a considerable cost—not just to the economy, but to liberty and, yes, to lives. Australians have been learning the hard way that the "zero COVID" strategy is impossible. We must learn to live with acceptable risks.

The city of Sydney is in week 12 of a harsh lockdown that has seen residents in the worst-affected areas confined to their homes 23 hours a day, with just 60 minutes permitted outside for exercise. When people do venture out, it must be between 5 a.m. and 9 p.m.

In other parts of Sydney, life is a little easier. People can go out for an early-morning or late-night run, but must stick to a roughly three-mile radius from their home. With the exception of grocery stores, pharmacies, and takeout food and coffee, everything is closed. There have been ripples of protest, but police have promptly shut them down, with organizers facing jail sentences and participants forced to pay millions in fines.

In Melbourne, the government has closed playgrounds and told residents not to watch the sunset. When protestors gathered, police used pepper spray and rubber bullets to disperse them. A child holding a sign saying "let me play" received a face full of pepper spray.

Melbourne was once voted among the world's most livable, desirable cities. Now it's best known for being one of the world's most locked-down cities: More than 225 days and counting of police checking if residents have a reasonable excuse to leave their homes. The federal and state governments have begun to admit the "zero COVID" strategy is unachievable and is limping towards some kind of reopening.

Queensland and Western Australia are both vast states with very low population density. But both have closed their borders to anyone who isn't rich or famous. Rugby and Australian football players can cross the border, but a critically unwell baby, a child separated from his or her parents, or those seeking medical care at the nearest hospital are not so privileged.

South Australia has developed an app which uses geolocation and facial recognition software to enforce quarantine for certain people—a clear infringement on their privacy. But many Australians are just grateful for an alternative to two weeks of solitary confinement in hotel quarantine.

Australia can try to say it did everything possible to stop the spread (except better prioritization of vaccines). The country has surrendered freedom of movement, prohibited people from leaving the country, the state, a three-mile radius, or in many cases their homes. It has only recently begun to count the human cost of these strict lockdowns.

The obsession with lockdowns surely saved some lives from COVID-19, but it also meant that COVID-19 became the only disease it was unacceptable for a life to be lost to. There is a human cost in terms of diseases not treated, medical appointments missed, and symptoms ignored. A "shadow pandemic" of domestic violence has emerged. An average of 40 minors a day in New South Wales are hospitalized due to self-harm and suicide attempts—up 47 percent from 2019. Our suicide hotline has hit multiple all-time records. Many are watching their life savings slowly dwindle. The restaurant where my partner and I had our first date, an establishment which has been a part of the community for 30 years, recently closed its doors forever. These businesses often represent a lifetime of effort lost.

Apparently, none of those costs matter.

The neuroscientist Sam Harris summarized the basics of human well-being in his book, The Moral Landscape: "people tend to be happier if they have good friends, basic control over their lives, and enough money to meet their needs." Yet for nearly two years, Australians have been told to stay home in isolation while their relationships fracture and their livelihoods turn to dust. And they've been told that it's for their own good.

NEXT: Border Patrol Agent Wants SCOTUS To Make It Effectively Impossible To Sue Abusive Federal Officers

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  1. “The problem with Australia is not that it was populated with convicts, but that it was populated with prison Wardens.”

    1. I dunno, it seems like most Australians are happy to go along with being prisoners

      1. They don’t want to admit to themselves that maybe, just maybe, they were wrong to throw away their freedoms.

        1. Fuck Joe Biden, fuck concentration camps, and fuck leftists.

          Our civility is our weakness.

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      2. @ JeremyR

        This so much. If they are going to keep on electing these sort of politicians…

        …well, “Elections have consequences”

    2. Australians who want to be free should rise up. They should overthrow their government and execute the socialist trash.

      1. Ned Kelly is dead.

      2. Bummer they gave up their guns. Let that be a warning.

      3. A penal colony rising up?

  2. FYI, the people defending this on Twitter are HIlarious!

    1. Examples?

      I only look at twitter when others provide links.

      1. I’d have to dig. When it was first announced, there were a slate of people mocking the melodramatics from the “liberty” side of the argument, saying that the lockdowns were limited to only a small portion of the population.

        As I understood their argument, The Final Solution wasn’t that bad because it was limited to the Jews… or something.

        1. The Jews did stab the Germans in the back at the end of the Great War. At least that is what the national socialist papers were printing.

    2. It’s even worse on Reddit. Scary, actually.

      1. Millennials really are just part 2 of the Boomers.

        1. Aren’t you a boomer?

          Or are Canadian gens different?

          1. You’re a coomer, redneck,

            1. I really don’t mind being called red neck because I’m anything but that.

              1. You and I both know the truth, redneck coomer.

                1. Are you spying on someone who you think is me?

                  You got the wrong guy. Im not a redneck or a coomer. I have plenty of ladies to do that for me.

                  I live in a city that’s the antithesis of rednecks. The rednecks drive a couple hours to pick fights with Antifa.

                  1. “I have plenty of ladies to do that for me.”

                    The more often you say it, the more it will be a reality, dipshit. Your low testosterone blue whining gives away what kind of a clown you are though.

                    1. It was a joke dumbass

                    2. Lol yeah I would say that too now if I were you.

                    3. Well if you were me you wouldn’t be such a white trash loser.

                      Fuck off you fascist hick

                    4. LOL the mormon hating moron is triggered and angry and cranky 🙂

                      Mormons will continue to thrive, win and CURB STOMP you and your family in the culture war, with a smile on their face and money in their wallets. 😀

                    5. I was right about you.

                      If you’re not Mormon you’re trash for supporting them.

                      If the Christian god is real enjoy your stay in hell.

                    6. “It was a joke dumbass”

                      Yeah, we know you being with any ladies is a joke.

                    7. When he is with a lady, the joke is actually him lmao I bet he got a little micro-egg, Epstein style xD

                  2. Hey KAR,

                    I am not a Mormon, but it was delicious triggering you more by telling you that Mormons will continue to CRUSH you and your family in the culture war and LAUGH OUT LOUD while thriving and enjoying their lives against your express will. 😀

                    1. The best part, about money in their wallets. It’s such a spineless wankjob, it claims to have lent people money, then couldn’t sack up and ask for it back. Thus, all Mormons are bad. Though the ‘rednecks driving to fight w/ antifa’ bs is a hoot, too. One wonders if it will notice that antifa shows up to start fights.

      2. Not on r/ivermectin and r/libertarian.

        1. Seriously? r/libertarian is nothing bit communists and has bee for years.

          1. That was the first wave of people that left the Reason comments.

            1. Yeah. Not enough censorship in here and stuff. Not their Jazz.

          2. They’ll try to convince you that being libertarian/socialist is not even slightly contradictory. I used to go there just to try to get some insights into how the left libertarians rationalize things but since COVID hit it’s been all boot-locking.

  3. “We’ll get down to zero covid deaths even if we have to kill every man, woman and child to do it!”

    1. If it saves just one life it’s worth enslaving the entire population.

      1. “Those people” are better off as slaves.

      2. “No lives matter if just one life can be saved from COVID.”

  4. I’d say if they were Americans they’d take to the streets but …

    1. You, telling me the things you’re gonna do for me
      I ain’t blind and I don’t like what I think I see…

      1. it keeps you running.

        1. Fauci Music is the doctor.

          1. And the crowd is growing bigger listening for the happy sounds. And I got to let them fly.

            1. But everyday there’s a new strain comin’!

              1. And it all started in a China grove.

  5. So from latest data I can find Australians have about the lowest vaccination rate in the developed world, with a lofty goal of 80% to reduce these restrictions; and yet nearly 48% [though a considerable drop from the 85% earlier this year] still support Morrison’s handling of these lockdowns?

    None of this makes any sense.

    1. Early on, the only vaccine they were able to take was AstraZeneca (which is similar to the J&J) shot, which was nuked there early on due to safety concerns over blood clots. I don’t believe that’s the case anymore, but people got used to going around without getting the shot, and like New Zealand, ANY COVID case there at all is justification in the government’s mind to shut shit down completely.

      There’s exceptions for the ultra-rich, actors, and celebrities, of course, although that didn’t stop Natalie Portman and her family from yeeting on out of there when the lockdowns and quarantine camps went full bore last month.

      As fucked up as things are here, there are at least enough state governors who have sufficient support to tell Biden and his cabal to go fuck themselves. Australia (and to a lesser extent, Canada) is a case study in what happens when a population is so infantilized, it will readily sacrifice 100% personal liberty if they think it will bring them 100% safety under the pretense of the “collective good.” You can bet your ass Klaus Schawb and the Davos shitheads, along with the Boomer world leaders desperately trying to hold on to their peurile daily lives, are taking detailed notes.

      1. Last count 25 states have signed onto the lawsuit against Biden’s vaccine mandates. Fuck Joe Biden.

        1. Fuck Joe Biden

      2. America made a terrible mistake when it ceased persecution of marxists and abandoned Joe McCarthy’s efforts.

        The only good Marxist is a dead Marxist.

      3. And even shitty governors like Whitmer eventually gave up on most of the bullshit because they saw their political future being destroyed.

        Of course we’ll see what she does with MIOSHA regarding the mandate.

        1. In Michigan the slightly majority Republican legislature finally got the cohones to clip her wings:

          https://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2021/07/21/michigan-governor-whitmer-emergency-powers-law/8031378002/

          There are plenty of authority loving douche canoes in this State who love them some authority, of course when it is directed toward those they do not like are agree with.

    2. Unvaccinated people are terrified of unvaccinated people.

      1. When it comes to vaccinated/unvaccinated, I identify as non-binary. And you splitters need to finally understand that. I get sick of people calling me a Schrödinger’s Cat Wannabe. Why is everyone so fucking mean to me?

  6. The obsession with lockdowns surely saved some lives from COVID-19, but it also meant that COVID-19 became the only disease it was unacceptable for a life to be lost to.

    This mentality is certainly common in some parts of the U.S. too. I don’t understand it. I can comprehend (even as I condemn) politicians who like this–after all, they are the main beneficiaries, and it’s not as if they have to follow these onerous rules. But regular people who seem to enjoy a prison-like existence; I just don’t get that.

    1. Nor do I; except that the world seems to be divided into two primary camps:

      Those who appreciate their freedoms and want to be left along and leave others alone and

      Those who cannot imagine the rest of the world not thinking, believing, and acting as they do; hypocrisy notwithstanding

  7. Reporting on the Australian the police state in Reason after only 225 days? What’s the rush? Seems like we need more articles defending oligarch censorship and toll roads to me.

      1. Fuck Joe Biden, you worthless intern.

        1. Don’t mock the poor bitch!

          1. Also, fuck joe Biden!

      2. Oz is the cawnary in the coal mine

  8. Is this any different than America? The populace won’t allow it, but the goal here is completely unattainable. Constant moving goals are obviously not an accident. Tack natural immunity onto vaccination rates, and anyone with any kind of brain function can figure out that COVID is not going away. Every day shows a new mandate, and now they are trying to fast-track approval for kids to make it a requirement to go to school. The same kids who the CDC says are not at any statistical risk.

    1. If we have to kill 10,000 healthy children to save 1 fatty, we will.

  9. >>When people do venture out, it must be between 5 a.m. and 9 p.m.

    perfect time for everyone to run outside and lick each other. nonviolent resistance.

    1. Licking someone without consent is assault. Crazy I know. Dogs are guilty most frequently.

      1. my plan includes consent.

        1. You’ll never make it in government work, Dillinger.

          1. no but I throw fun parties.

      2. Why do you think the Australian government shot all those service dogs to keep people from another province from coming in to pick them up?

      3. Yes, but dogs find it hard not to assault by licking because asses are salty to lick.

        1. If you say so. I’m not judging.

          1. No need to judge. Mike is definitely an expert on the subject. I’ve heard Tony taught him well.

            1. Didn’t need, Tony. I have owned dogs.

              1. You licked dogs…no, not gonna do it.

              2. Thanks for sharing, Dogshitbreath.

    2. nonviolent resistance.

      i.e., burning down a city, not casually strolling through Parliament uninvited.

      1. kindling pallets of diggery-doos left in the streets anonymously.

          1. your obscure music knowledge is worthy of a Jeopardy category

            1. I was a fanatical devotee of Dr. Demento back in the 80s.

              Listening to that song again, I realize how racist it is by modern standards. And aborigine practicing until he’s black in the face?

              At least as bad as the mysognistic Georgy Girl, by The Seekers.

              1. Three Accountants and their Phone Girl.

    3. We’re way past the point of nonviolence

  10. We’ve been leading normal lives without lockdowns or masking and life went on as usual. Not everyone bought into this but then the left wing media doesn’t matter here. Just go on with life and stop worrying about other folks. The fascist left always wants control. Fuck Joe Biden and do not comply.

  11. The dream is not zero Communist Chinese Virus; the dream is total control.
    And they have achieved their dream (at least in the cities).

    I see there are no articles about how the evil right wing crazies in the bush, who kept their firearms, are behaving.

  12. Whitehouse admits citizens are required to be vaccinated but migrants detained or brought in will not be required to vaccinate:
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9978981/Psaki-brushes-question-Biden-mandating-vaccines-big-companies-not-migrants.html

    1. Congress is exempt as well.

      1. Of course they are.

        1. Marie Antoinette likely never said “let them eat cake” but the impression that the aristocrats were so divorced from reality and lives by their own set of rules separate from the rules everyone else lived by led many French to believe she had. Thus, despite Antoinette actually doing a lot of charitable work for the poor, no one spoke up when she was sentenced to death.

  13. Two weeks decades to flatten the curve.

    1. Two of SOMETHING to flatten the curve. Two bullets to the brainpan perhaps?

    2. 20 years to lose the war.

      I think this might be a sequel.

  14. Prison colony remains prison colony.

    Only allowed to leave your home once a day for 60 minutes for exercise? I literally know people on parole who have more rights.

  15. A child holding a sign saying “let me play” received a face full of pepper spray.

    Rugby and Australian football players can cross the border, but a critically unwell baby, a child separated from his or her parents, or those seeking medical care at the nearest hospital are not so privileged.

    Pure evil. To any Australians who may lurk here, your government is evil.

  16. Australia’s constitution doesn’t have a Bill of Rights and the government leaders are proud of that. Basically, Australia’s federal government does what it wants because nothing in its constitution requires it to respect individual rights. The People effectively waived their rights by not enumerating them in their constitution.

    This was a major concern when our Constitution was up for ratification, especially regarding the Necessary and Proper Clause. Australia is proving how correct the Anti-Federalists were regarding enumerating individual rights.

  17. Oh, this is just too fucking good…

    Jared Polis blasts FDA delay on coronavirus vaccine booster approval: “They have blood on their hands”
    Polis also urged federal regulators to quickly approve coronavirus vaccines for younger children

    Using uncharacteristically incendiary rhetoric, Gov. Jared Polis on Monday criticized federal regulatory delays in rolling out coronavirus vaccine booster shots, dismissing concerns that the vaccine doses are unnecessary and could be better used elsewhere.

    “At the very least, the FDA should get out of the way and allow people to make this choice to protect themselves,” Polis said during a news conference…

    Asked for his thoughts, Polis referred to Gruber and Krause by name, saying that “we can all celebrate” that the two longtime vaccine regulators are leaving the FDA.

    “They have blood on their hands and there are thousands of Americans that are dead today because of their delays on the booster shot,” Polis said.

    Besides the ironic hilarity of making a libertarian argument for pumping additional shots for an experimental treatment with no long-term studies on its effects into your body (“my body my choice!”), Polis’s spergout wasn’t what caught my attention; this is what did, about halfway through the article:

    Polis said about 2.4% of Colorado adults — including his parents — have already received a booster shot. His administration plans to roll out booster shots to nursing homes later this month. It is also planning for drive-thru events and other clinics when booster shots of the Pfizer vaccine are expected to be approved for everyone on Sept. 20. It’s still not entirely clear how the more widespread booster campaign will work, but the federal government has previously suggested that people who received a two-dose vaccine, like the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines, get a booster eight months after their last shot.

    Gee, why eight months? Oh yeah–because like I pointed out already, the data out of Israel showed that the mRNA “vaccines” provided NO IMMUNITY WHATSOEVER after eight months to 90% of the people who took them. What a fucking coincidence!

    What’s the big hurry, dude? You’re just going to be back to this in another 8 months when those boosters crap out again, demanding the FDA shut up and let people inject another 20 shots into their bloodstream after another spike happens. Calm down and let the FDA inject infants with this shit so we can see what happens in a year or two.

    1. It’s like everyone has lots their minds at the same time.

      1. Nah. It’s been spread out over the last 5 years.

    2. If the COVID vaccine had gone through the usual approval process you’d be complaining about how many deaths were caused by the FDA dragging their feet.

      But when they fast-track the vaccine you complain about it being experimental and insufficiently tested.

      Is there some magical testing process you’re not letting us in on, or are you going to bitch no matter what?

      1. You should get tested, you damn freak

        1. I did get tested, and your mom gave me VD. Thank goodness for Penicillin.

          1. Untrue. Penicillin is allergic to YOU.

      2. Oh good SCREETCH is here to explain the FDA and vax testing with his finger up his nose and his thumb up his butt.

      3. I’ve been pointing out that this was rushed when the bad orange man was President, you dumb lush. Stop crying about people telling you what you think while happily indulging in the practice.

        1. Did I say anything about the president?

  18. Many pro vaccine mandates posters who have been posting on Reason over the past 72 hrs also appear to be under the misapprehension that we can reach zero COVID.

    1. We need to target negative COVID!!!

      1. The dead shall rise from the graves!
        Oh, that’s Election Day.

    1. However, I was pleased to see a Reason post without “but Trump..” in it.

      1. Someone is getting a pay cut.

  19. Brooklyn Teachers hold rally, march across Brooklyn Bridge chanting “Fuck, Joe Biden” in response to vaccine mandates.

  20. Joe Biden welcomed to California by protestors chanting “Fuck Joe Biden”

  21. Seriously? I might have to reevaluate my opinions of teachers.

  22. Second week in a row college football fans take up chant of “Fuck Joe Biden”.

    1. Fuck Joe Biden

      1. I feel your pain, loser.

        1. We’ll feel your patience in November 2022 and 2024.

          1. Tough talk from a guy who didn’t vote last time….or did you vote for the Libertarian – same thing.

            The public backs Biden on vaccine mandate and Afghanistan will fade – it already has – and be seen for what it was: A president who had the guts to do what the American people wanted – get out – and under circumstances close to, if not unavoidable. In the end, 124k were airlifted, despite a quick collapse of the government which intelligence and the military told Joe would hold up. Remember, Joe told Obama in 2009 to not do the Afghani surge.

            1. Lol even your little lefty polls contradict that. Old man will be around to see it, I hope.

            2. Keep thinking that. 60% of blacks are not vaccinated. Teachers are opposed to mandates. And of course a tribalist piece of partisan shit like you think there were only two choices. His poll numbers keep dropping. It’s rare for a president to increase his poll number after his first year. Afghanistan is not going to fade, or inflation, and the mandates will hurt him amongst core Democratic voting blocks.
              But then again you aren’t smart enough to understand this so I’ll forgive you. Keep regurgitating progressive talking points because that is all you are capable of.

              1. Sorry your drunk this early soldiermedic, or are you often incapable of intelligent discussion for other reasons?

                PS Keep this post to look at in a year. It will be amusing.

                1. Boring troll. Proper rejoinder therefore: Keep this post to look at in a year. It will be amusing.

                2. I’ve tried to have an intelligent conversation with you. You failed to say anything intelligent, you just kept regurgitating talking points. So, no I won’t have an intelligent conversation with you because you are incapable. Oh and Fuck Joe Biden. And Fuck Gen Milley who broke the law under UCMJ if what Woodward wrote is true. And broke his oath to the Constitution which places all the military subservient to the President. No matter who is the President. Oh and once more Fuck Joe Biden.

                  1. What part of 120 thousand airlifted don’t you get soldier!

                    ONE HUNDRED TWENTY THOUSAND AIRLIFTED!!!!!!!!

                    1. And somehow we still left SIV holders, citizens and legal residents behind because they weren’t prioritized. I love when they quote that big number when the majority of SIV holders were abandoned, and are now being murdered, American citizens and permeant residents. It once again shoes Joe and Blinken didn’t get their priorities straight.

                    2. ONE HUNDRED TWENTY THOUSAND AIRLIFTED!!!!!!!!

                    3. The incorrectly prioritized 120k airlifted, ya mean? If you want to make a point, even if a sarcastic point, get the basic facts down.

                3. Historically, in the modern era only two Presidents have been able to hold onto the house in midterms. Both had far higher popularity at this point in their term. Only one President in the modern era has less popularity, Trump and he lost Republican control of the house for the first time in 8 years.

                4. See I comeback with actual historical facts and you accuse me of being drunk. That’s what I mean by can’t have a intellectual conversation. I come out with actual data on vaccinations among minorities. You have no rejoinder so you accuse me of being inebriated. That’s why no one can have an intelligent conversation, because you dismiss anything that goes against you preconceptions. Because you are just a parrot who regurgitates progressive talking points. You haven’t even given a good reason why Biden will defy history and improve his polling after his first year (which historically almost never happens) enough to hold on to the house in 2022 (when historically the President loses the House in his first midterms).
                  I bet you are one of those rich white, probably civic major, progressives who believes blacks owe their vote to the Democrats.

            3. You know it was possible to get non-military people out of Afghanistan before all the military right?

              And you’re welcome for the opportunity for another fifty cents by responding. It’s not my money.

              1. R Mac, non-military Americans in Afghanistan were warned 17 times starting in March to get it organized to leave. Many were committed to, or were making money off the Afghani government and wouldn’t leave while they thought is was viable – same for many Afghani’s. The Afghani president asked that we not start a major exit to soon or – like Trump not including them in his and Pompeo’s talks with the Taliban – perhaps help destabilize the government. Trump had scheduled the pull out for less than 4 months from his leaving office. Did he have some plan in place that we have not heard about somehow?

                1. How many of those 17 times was before Biden said the Taliban couldn’t take the country back, while demanding the Afghan president lie to the same effect, and how many were after he said that?

                  So, fuck Joe Biden, and fuck you.

                2. Jen Psaki is that you? Because you are just regurgitating talking points. Nothing original from you. Oh and Fuck Joe Biden.
                  The warned them 17 times is the same defense as the she deserved to be raped because of her short dress defense. Also, the Biden administration even admitted they didn’t issue stronger evacuation orders becsuse Ghani didn’t want a mass exodus that would make him look weak. So they warned people but also told people don’t worry you’ll be safe and the government will stand. They were sending mixed messages. But to you, the only truth is what Sleepy Joe mumbles.

            4. Fuck, you managed to get slapped by soldiermedic. I keep seeing progressive clowns like you get slapped by moderates. Guys like you are the TNT underneath the political foundation of the left.

              1. Ah, another Libertarian intellectual eager to exchange ideas with those who may not agree on all issues. It’s so refreshing here, and such an advertisement for Libertarianism!

                1. If we want a bunch of progressive propaganda we have plenty of other places to get it besides you. Debating with propagandists is futile.

                  1. R, I’m sure you find debating anyone futile.

                    1. Debating you is futile because you just regurgitate talking points. You don’t ever say anything original. Oh and Fuck Joe Biden.

                    2. I wouldn’t call myself a Libertarian anymore, particularly not the big L variant. Seeing bootlickers like you makes me draw the necessary conclusions in times that turn more authoritarian. And in such times, well, honestly debating seems a little futile. So I agree with R.

                      Progressive circle jerks on CNN aren’t debates, has anyone ever told you that?

                    3. No. Just propagandists that make claims with no evidence.

                      I can’t debate your opinion and fantasies.

                      Also, fuck Joe Biden, and fuck you too bootlicker.

                  2. It’s not even a propagandist, it just pastes ignorant horseshit that its ignorant in-group tells it is good and true, more than likely to stir up the /market thugs’ and try to own the righties.

            5. The White House press corp asked Biden in July about the intelligence saying the Afghan government would quickly collapse. Biden quickly dismissed this and said that would not happen. At the same time China was meeting with the Taliban knowing the puppet government would fall. The intelligence said it would happen, the press thought it would happen, China knew it would happen but botcher Biden said it wouldn’t. It did happen. Plan 5 is to blame the intelligence? I believe this was also plan 2. Biden also blamed the Afganis, Trump and the “it isn’t happening.”
              Biden had the guts to drone strike murder an innocent aid worker and two kids. This is a war crime. He also abandoned the guy that saved him when he visited as well as countless Americans. Botcher Biden had the guts to check his watch when the dead servicemen returned home. With humility.

              1. Chumby, intelligence did not say the Afghani government would quickly collapse. Biden blamed the corrupt Afghani government, not the people. Many soldiers had not been paid because from local chieftans up, Afghani leaders were socking it away. Do you really think Biden is at the sites on drone attacks? Oooh, Biden looked at his watch! Cold blooded killer.

                1. It did. Biden was asked this in July at a presser. China knew too. He should have stuck to the negotiated deadline instead of trying to have some photo op event on Sept 11 to stroke his ego. Paragon of humility.
                  Biden said “The buck stops here.” He is in charge. Hitler never gassed a single Jew. Milosevic never shelled a single Bosnian.
                  Biden reportedly looked at his watch each time.

                  1. Still no cites from poor Joe The Bootlicker.

                    Guess he’s gotta wait for tomorrow am’s email.

                    1. Originally saw this elsewhere but couldn’t find it. Fact checker claims WatchGate was false:
                      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=meqDXetNG4w

                    2. I’m glad the propagandists aren’t really pretending anymore at least.

                      Sad that the liberaltarians here won’t take them at their word though.

                2. I’ve see Biden look at his watch in other speeches. I dunno. Maybe he’s worried it’s time for his medication? His nap? Matlock’s starting?

  23. A child holding a sign saying “let me play” received a face full of pepper spray.

    Was that you Sevo?

  24. Instead of bitching about the status quo, as awful as it may be, Reason ought to publish an article about what its preferred libertarian public health system might look like. Some questions to ponder:

    1. Presumably there would be no vaccine mandates of any kind. Would there be vaccine incentives? Should governments encourage citizens to get vaccines in some way?
    2. Presumably there would also not be mandatory ‘lockdowns’ or anything of the sort. Again, though, would there be public health incentives? Instead of forcing businesses to close, should governments encourage businesses to close when there is a genuine public health crisis?
    3. If a sick person *knowingly* passes the disease on to other unwilling individuals, would this behavior constitute a violation of the NAP, on some level? If so, would the victims be eligible to pursue justice in courts in some form, perhaps via a tort? What should the standards be for such litigation?
    4. Absent any mandates, what should the obligations be of a moral, upstanding, right-thinking libertarian be living in Libertopia? Would individuals be encouraged – perhaps not by government directly, but by social pressure or other non-coercive means – to pursue activities that promote public health? If not, then how would any measure of public health be obtained in LIbertopia?

    1. All answers are no.
      And fuck Joe Biden.

      1. You aren’t helping.
        You only add noise.

        1. Fuck Joe Biden.

          1. I feel your pain, loser.

            1. Says the loser who does nothing but regurgitate Democratic talking points and thinks he sounds smart.

            2. Your side has been losing hard lately. I understand you are very cranky therefore.

            3. You’ve fucked Joe Biden? It’s all making sense now.

            4. Speaking from experience?

    2. Looks like we have a new progressive who thinks everyone needs to bend their knees to the king government. Oh and Fuck Joe Biden.

      1. More clever repartee from soldiermedic. Such a facile and rapier like mind!

        1. You wouldn’t know witty or clever repartee if it bit you on the ass. You have never shown the ability to say anything clever, just regurgitated talking points. You responses are entirely predictable because it is straight off MSNBC. You have yet stated anything original since you started posting here. It is all the same old reheated leftover leftist talking points. And appeals to authority.

          1. soldiermedic, I don’t watch MSNBC, but say hello to Sean and Tucker for me. In the modern world, no one says anything original, but hopefully we can exchange ideas or facts connected in new ways or even present ones we each may not have heard yet.

            Nahh!

            1. Yes so original, anyone who doesn’t agree with a lefty must watch Fox News. So fucking predictable. And really, you are defending regurgitating talking points?

              1. BTW I watch exactly one show in FNC, the Gutfeld show, which isn’t even a news show, but a night time talk show. And Fuck Fox News because they cancelled it for coverage of the California recall election tonight.

                1. Whoa, they did? I got some Gutfeld footage on my youtube the other day. Was not so bad.

                  1. Gutfeld, the new king of late night.

                    1. He was out the last two days anyway, so not sure they canceled it. Jesse Waters hosted last night.

            2. “In the modern world, no one says anything original,”

              There it is. Thanks!

              1. He actually is defending group think and I doubt he even realizes it.

                1. He’s clearly pretty dumb.

            3. Well, sorry to say it, but you are so brainwashed that your viewpoints approximate mainstream media bullshit without you having to consume all of them. That’s kind of the trick. You will then, by reflex, say “but I don’t even consume xyz, I am such an independent and critical thinker, muh sharpentest intallect!!!”

              1. Except he accidentally admitted he’s not an independent thinker, and can’t comprehend anyone else being one.

    3. You’re not a libertarian, and none of the actual libertarians here find you worth discussing such topics.

      Fuck Joe Biden.

      1. The “actual libertarians” who care more about virtue signaling to their right-wing friends about how much they hate progressives, rather than discuss issues of substance? That’s an “actual libertarian”?

          1. Sure seems like it to me.

            The self-proclaimed “actual libertarians” around here spend an inordinately large amount of time yelling to everyone how much they hate progressives. They bitch and moan and complain about everything that progressives are doing. And yet they are strangely reticent to declare what types of things that they are in favor of. They will go on and on about how much they hate progressives and how much they oppose what Democrats are doing. But what are R Mac’s ideas for a libertarian vision of public health? Do you even have one? Oh no, much more fun just to say Fuck Joe Biden over and over again. As if that says anything meaningful.

            1. I will tell you mine and what others have posted multiple times, it’s no one’s fucking business.

            2. I know it does. It’s a defense mechanism. You should consider self-reflection.

              “inordinately large amount of time yelling to everyone how much they hate progressives.”

              They’re in charge of the federal government and are in the process of implementing very anti-libertarian dictates. It’s still funny to me how during the Trump administration all we heard from you liberaltarians was that Trump was president, but once Democrats got back control, you’d be just as critical of them. You’re not. You lied.

              “But what are R Mac’s ideas for a libertarian vision of public health?”

              What does “public health” mean exactly, oh great individualist?

              1. “Critical of Democrats” is not the same as “stupid public performative displays designed to piss people off and ‘pwn the libs'”. Where have you seen me support any of Biden’s policies? Go ahead, I’ll wait. I know you like Jesse keep a dossier of the people you don’t like so I am sure you have a long list of quotations from me where I am praising Biden’s policies, right? Right? Oh wait you don’t.

                But I don’t go in for the public performances of OMG OUTRAGE. Yes that’s right. And you mistake that with “support for Biden”. Because YOUR measure of opposition is how strongly someone can virtue signal their hatred of progressives. In your world Nardz is a much bigger opponent of progressives than me, even though all Nardz ever does is make empty promises about wanting to murder them, whereas I construct arguments against their policies without wanting to literally murder them. Edgy performative outrage outranks any intellectual argument. That is where Team Red is nowadays and I am not surprised you are a fellow traveler in that. Even here at Reason there is article after article about how much Biden’s policies, or Democrats’ policies more generally, are a bad idea and a disaster waiting to happen. But that is not good enough for you, you are not looking for intellectual arguments, you are looking for a dopamine fix from outrage porn.

                What does “public health” mean exactly, oh great individualist?

                Why don’t you start by telling us what you think it means to you. It’s a real concept you know. Or maybe you are too chicken to even approach the topic because then you’d have to actually defend a position rather than just insult and troll people.

                1. Are you calling Teachers Union members from NYC performance theater to own libs? I mean teachers unions, especially from NYC, are a long known hotbed of right wing idealists.

                2. “I know you like Jesse keep a dossier of the people you don’t like so I am sure you have a long list of quotations from me where I am praising Biden’s policies, right? Right? Oh wait you don’t.”

                  Sounds like Jesse is in your head. Not sure what that has to do with me. Nice, dishonest deflection though. My statement was about all the criticism you gave Trump, and then said you would continue to criticize Democrats the same way when they get power. I didn’t say you praised Biden. I said you don’t criticize Biden the same way. Nice lie to change what I said though.

                  That’s 2.

                  “But I don’t go in for the public performances of OMG OUTRAGE. Yes that’s right. And you mistake that with “support for Biden”.

                  Do you understand what quotation marks are for, in relation to what other people say? Because when you say “support for Biden” when characterizing what I’ve said, it means that I said “support for Biden”. It literally means that’s exactly what I said. It’s you quoting me. If you’re quoting someone, you should use their actual words. Get it?

                  Lie #3.

                  And I’d still like an example of you complaining about “public performances of OMG OUTRAGE.” during Trumps administration, like you are repeatedly doing here regarding Biden. (Note than when I used “” marks, the words inside the quotes were actually your exact words, not my b.s. translation of your words to help my argument).

                  1. Also, Fuck Joe Biden lefty simp.

    4. After this steaming pile of progressive shit you just posted don’t ever dare label yourself a libertarian ever again. Fuck Joe Biden.

      1. What on earth are you talking about? What should be the correct “libertarian” position then? Just repeat “Fuck Joe Biden” over and over as if that is meaningful somehow?

        1. Fuck Joe Biden.
          The correct libertarian position is to praise the vaccines and support body autonomy by opposing mandates. Everyone is responsible for their own health as you’ve been told multiple times. You’re list is just a bunch of excuses for collectivism and authoritarianism but you’re fine with that because you secretly admire left wing authoritarians. Oh and since it hurts you so much, Fuck Joe Biden.

          1. The correct libertarian position is to praise the vaccines and support body autonomy by opposing mandates.

            Which I have done, and I did above.

            Everyone is responsible for their own health as you’ve been told multiple times.

            I agree.

            You’re list is just a bunch of excuses for collectivism and authoritarianism but you’re fine with that because you secretly admire left wing authoritarians.

            Which is why I rejected vaccine mandates and mandatory lockdowns above, right?

            Oh and since it hurts you so much, Fuck Joe Biden.

            It doesn’t hurt me. It is just juvenile and stupid. You’re repeating what drunk college kids said at SEC football games. How does this advance the discussion in any meaningful way?

            1. It’s far more than drunk college kids. It’s thousands of teachers in Brooklyn. Its a crowd who showed up at Joe Biden’s campaign event in California. It’s a growing movement. I said Fuck Trump and you never said that was juvenile. Amazing how selective you are about that.

              1. It’s a growing movement.

                A growing movement of WHAT, exactly? People who think it’s edgy to say Fuck Joe Biden?

                1. Read my post below. Really. Why would you attack this style of messaging?

                2. It is a growing movement of displeasure with Joe Biden. How hard is that to understand?

                  1. Remember when Lefty Jeffy kept complaining about all the public anti-Trump screeching?

                    Pepperidge Farms does not, in fact remember.

                    1. Pretty bad when even Pepperidge Farms doesn’t remember.

            2. I think repeating Fuck Joe Biden puts a kind of signal out there. If infantile performance art for political messaging purposes has a place in this society, than this simple kind of messaging does too. Also, drunk posting is an honorable activity.

              1. If infantile performance art for political messaging purposes has a place in this society

                Not in my world.

                You know those people who had that giant Trump Baby balloon? Yeah that was stupid too.

                1. Well then we disagree about taste I guess. The range of political messaging that we find to be effective I guess. I think you don’t say they shouldn’t be permitted to say that.

                  1. Of course people have a right to engage in whatever messaging they wish. Fuck Joe Biden, Giant Trump Baby Balloons, whatever. It does not appeal to me. It is juvenile and ridiculous and makes an already terrible state of public discourse even worse.

                    1. We kinda need James Cameron to raise the bar again I guess huh?

                    2. When the president of the United States gets up and angrily declares he’s lost his patience with Americans who don’t follow willingly his vaccine recommendations he deserves nothing more than he deserves nothing more than a big fuck you.

                    3. When a President fails in his one duty to protect American citizens by leaving them behind, because of a deadline he set, he deserves nothing more than a fuck you.

                    4. He also deserves a fuck you for suggesting the 2nd Amendment is useless and we should get missiles and grenades or something like that. It shows how much we need it, actually.

                    5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHLHkmWoYDU

                      He actually said its gotta be F-15s and Nuclear weapons. This President suggests he is ready to commit genocide against his own armed public. The most deserved fuck you ever.

        2. Fuck Joe Biden Jeff. Just say it, you’ll feel better.

          Unless you’re not allowed to.

          1. No. It’s silly and stupid and juvenile. It is more of the ‘pwn the libs’ bullshit.

            1. Why didn’t you call Tony et Al, even me, when we said Fuck Trump juvenile?

              1. I really don’t get his problem with the style of messaging now. And Fuck Joe Biden has been adapted because of an attack on the first amendment that took place earlier. Why is that so hard for him?

                1. And Fuck Joe Biden has been adapted because of an attack on the first amendment that took place earlier.

                  It has? How so?

                    1. Okay then. So a judge wrongfully declared that a Fuck Biden sign was obscenity and wanted it taken down, suddenly, Fuck Joe Biden becomes a ‘thing’? Because some judge made a wrong ruling?

                      This is just getting weirder and weirder.

                    2. Well you seem to have a problem with the permissible range of political messaging. Fuck Joe Biden is clear and concise, like Black Lives Matter. I have to say I am not dumb, but it does appeal to me. So there is that. Just like when someone else said that Elder is a horrible person and most recall candidates are not even politically fit at all. Well then we have to look at what causes so many to line up behind such candidates.

                      Same with this simple message: Fuck Joe Biden.

                    3. I mean, we have to ask what causes many to stand behind this message then. It is not just alcohol. It’s currently only nicotine for me.

                    4. “Okay then. So a judge wrongfully declared that a Fuck Biden sign was obscenity and wanted it taken down,”

                      No harm no foul, right Jeff?

                    5. I mean, we have to ask what causes many to stand behind this message then. It is not just alcohol. It’s currently only nicotine for me.

                      Well that’s easy. It’s partisanship. It’s Team Red wanting to do everything in their power to undermine Team Blue. And of course Team Blue does exactly the same thing trying to undermine Team Red. It is just more tribal sports bullshit.

                    6. It’s telling that civil disobedience during the Biden administration is so offensive to Lefty Jeffy.

                      I’m sure you can link to the many comments you made disparaging silly acts of civil disobedience during Trump, right?

                    7. It’s a lot of team blues constituents who are saying fuck Joe Biden. Members of NYC teachers unions aren’t exactly deep red.

                    8. “Well that’s easy. It’s partisanship. It’s Team Red wanting to do everything in their power to undermine Team Blue.”

                      See, with blue state teachers unions joining this movement, I think dismissing them as Team Red partisanship is a pro-blue partisan move in itself.

                    9. Because you suggest they remain unheard due to their primitive messaging and partisan association.

                    10. Also “it is only team red partisans” is exactly the talking point Biden and his supporters are using to dismiss the growing anger.

                    11. “Also “it is only team red partisans” is exactly the talking point Biden and his supporters are using to dismiss the growing anger.”

                      Well Jeff’s a lefty so…

                  1. It might actually just be me though, now that I’m seeing it. Because it only said Fuck Biden. But Fuck Joe Biden is a small step from that.

                  1. Yes that one sorry was a bit slow

              2. Well I certainly didn’t encourage it.

                And I’ll just be honest: Trump is a horrible human being PERSONALLY. He deserves most of the enmity that is thrown his way. As a human being, Trump is orders of magnitude worse than Joe Biden.

                And I am just not going to buy into the Team Red demagoguery on this issue. The whole Fuck Joe Biden thing seems to be a response to the botched Afghanistan withdrawal, which Biden absolutely deserves blame for, but Team Red will never admit that it was going to be a clusterfuck of one type or another no matter who had been in charge. If Trump had won in 2020, and he had proceeded with his Afghanistan withdrawal plan, and the Afghani army had folded as predictably as they did in the current day, then the same people now who are insisting upon saying FUCK JOE BIDEN would instead be defending Trump and blaming everyone else for the Afghanistan failures – the generals, the media, the ‘Deep State’, the Afghanis, the Democrats, literally everyone but Trump. So I am not going to buy into the cynicism of the whole thing.

                1. Fuck Joe Biden for a whole bunch of authoritarian bullshit. And I didn’t vote for Trump. So Fuck Joe Biden for ignoring the Constitution. FUCK HIM for his mandate. FUCK HIM for his fuck up in Afghanistan. Fuck HIM for his infrastructure bill. Fuck HIM for his ignoring questions and trying to change the subject. Fuck him for his $3.5 trillion boondoggle. I could go on.

                2. And Joe Biden is a lying, partisan hack who attacks people all the time and doesn’t get called out for it. He is a terrible human being.

                  1. Biden is not a saint but he is also no more terrible than every other politician at his level of experience. That includes Trump. But Trump has the added deficit of being a personally worse human being based on his personal life. If anyone truly deserves the “Fuck” epithet based on personal character, it’s Trump.

                    1. Really? Joe Biden is a despicable human being who is a self evident pedarest. Lies constantly. Attacks anyone who disagrees with him. Uses his office to enrich Jim and his family. Yes the left made those charges against Trump too. So at best, he is as bad as Trump.

                    2. How many Presidents force people to take medications against their will?
                      How many Presidents ask for more, historical deficit spending when we have 5+% inflation?
                      How many politicians abandoned American citizens, LPR and allies to a known enemy state?
                      I could go on. But it isn’t necessary. Nothing Biden has done as President is normal.

                    3. Look at the footage of Biden when he was still clear enough to have a “character”. I get major a-hole vibes from him.

                    4. Here’s the “libertarian” admitting he doesn’t think life-long politicians are that bad.

                      What exactly do you think it entails to thrive in DC for half a century?

                    5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHLHkmWoYDU

                      Again, Joe Biden here suggests if the citizens wanted to be able to stand up to the government, they needed F-15s and nuclear weapons. That’s despicable to me. Like the 2nd Amendment was worthless because we couldn’t compete with such weapons. Sick. He forgets that for his scenario to be valid, he would have to be capable of genocide against his own people. But maybe he just didn’t think it through all the way… But the implication is kinda… Well, deserving of a fuck you if you ask me.

                    6. “Again, Joe Biden here suggests if the citizens wanted to be able to stand up to the government, they needed F-15s and nuclear weapons. That’s despicable to me.”

                      This is why many call him a DOL sock. DOL fantasizes about mowing down citizens with an Apache helicopter.

                3. “As a human being, Trump is orders of magnitude worse than Joe Biden.”

                  Another tell from Lefty Jeffy. Biden’s been an authoritarian federal politician my entire life. His behavior as a Senator, Vice President, and now President, has effected everyone in this country, and many around the world during that time, negatively. He was partially responsible for the war on drugs, all the wars, etc. that the federal government has been involved in.

                  Trump? For most of my life he was an entertainer and that I could choose to ignore, and as President he was mean to corporate media that was lying to us (oh, now I see where you’re coming from) but mostly lowered my taxes, started no new wars, and got Arab countries to acknowledge the existence of Israel.

                  Seriously Jeff, you should think about why someone who claims to be a libertarian doesn’t think that the man who’s had his hands in all the evil shit our federal government has done for half a century is not that bad of a person.

                  1. You’re not going to get Jeffy to admit he’s biased and in this case, just stupidly ignorant.

    5. You’re right, you radical individualist you, fuck reporting the news through a libertarian-ish lens. Just spitball some policy suggestions that they are completely unqualified to make!

    6. 1. Deflect
      2. Redirect

  25. Not a libertarian, but:
    1. Vaccines are not strictly matters of individual choice as public health depends on our suppressing serious contagious diseases. You might as well favor eliminating stop lights.
    2. Vaccines and other measures like masks are attempts at avoiding lockdowns. In the event of seriouis outbreaks, of course the government should be able to force the closing of public spaces.
    3. Is there a legal difference between knowingly and deliberately? Knowingly would include careless or ignorant behavior. Deliberately would mean with malice.
    4. You guys can work on this one.

    1. 1. Go inject yourself with a bunch of stop lights then, defeated bootlicker.
      2. I’m sure for defeated, cranky, biologically obsolete misfits without an immune system, these outbreaks are very ‘serious’. People who enjoy their freedoms however will continue to laugh at the rock you call your home. 🙂
      3. Well the bullshit you pull off here looks like it’s both.
      4. Is your handle a mnemonic for the President so he doesn’t forget what day it is? I bet you think it works great. (Yea, I now know who Joe Friday is. And I know you are old. And probably really scared. Of the killer virus. Booo hooo hooo hooo)

    2. Looks like we have a new progressive who thinks everyone needs to bend their knees to the king government. Oh and Fuck Joe Biden.

      1. No wonder this place is called Reason.

        1. Yeah, if it were for you, it would be called Treason. Lmao

        2. It is a libertarian magazine, not a progressive rag. We call out regurgitated, unoriginal talking points for what they are. If you don’t like that feel free to leave, no one will miss you.

          1. In Joe’s defense, the publication itself is more libertarian adjacent.

            1. Ken Schultz and John Stossel are the only libertarian writers here.

              1. But Ken is mean to progressives, so he’s not a real libertarian!

                — Deesarc

    3. “Not a libertarian, but:”

      Yeah no shit. Now, fuck Joe Biden, and fuck you too.

    4. Thank you for your comments.

      1. Vaccines are not strictly matters of individual choice as public health depends on our suppressing serious contagious diseases. You might as well favor eliminating stop lights.

      I agree that public health depends on stopping contagious diseases. The real question though is about what are the most appropriate methods, from a libertarian point of view, of achieving this goal. At some level the question becomes a utilitarian one. But when the issue becomes injecting substances into a person’s body, then the individual’s liberty ought to receive a much higher weight in the grand utilitarian calculation. Otherwise, what is the point of liberty? If the government may rightfully demand that we forcibly inject substances into our body, all the rest of the claims of liberty suddenly matter much less. Mandating stoplights, while pro forma is a violation of liberty, is a much more tolerable one compared to vaccine mandates, no matter how noble or justifiable they may be from a public health perspective. Vaccine incentives are still objectionable from a deontological libertarian point of view – after all, those incentives have to come from somewhere, and it is inevitably from coercive taxation – but I would argue that this violation of liberty is far more tolerable than a government mandate to forcibly inject substances into unwilling citizens.

      2. Vaccines and other measures like masks are attempts at avoiding lockdowns. In the event of seriouis outbreaks, of course the government should be able to force the closing of public spaces.

      Again you are ignoring the property rights of the property owners. If a public health emergency is severe enough, wouldn’t property owners be readily convinced to alter their behavior in the absence of mandates? Incentives would encourage them to do so for those ‘on the fence’. Of course this strategy would also have to be coupled with a more robust understanding of what the property owners’ obligations are in the face of a genuine public health emergency. If a property owner acted recklessly and endangered lives, then that owner should be subject to court action just as if the property owner had acted recklessly with his property and endangered lives in some other way.

      3. Is there a legal difference between knowingly and deliberately? Knowingly would include careless or ignorant behavior. Deliberately would mean with malice.

      I may have been imprecise with my language, so let me rephrase the question/scenario:

      Suppose Bob, who is sick with a contagious disease and knows he is sick (has obvious symptoms), nevertheless goes out in public and meets Alice for lunch. Afterwards, Alice comes down with the same illness that Bob was suffering from. From a libertarian perspective, should Bob suffer any legal consequences from his decision to go out in public, where he should have known that he was highly likely to infect Alice with his illness? Is Bob’s decision to meet Alice for lunch when he knew he was sick with a contagious disease, a violation of the NAP? If the scenario had been instead that Bob was carrying a vial of poison and that he accidentally let some of the poison spill into Alice’s tea over lunch, not enough to kill her but just to make her sick, I think all here would agree that Bob would at least be guilty of negligence for his actions. But replace ‘vial of poison’ with ‘virus particles’ and suddenly the scenario seems to get a lot murkier. My question is how to resolve the murkiness and arrive at a libertarian solution to how to deal with sick people infecting others in public, whether knowingly or not.

      4. You guys can work on this one.

      Thanks, we will.

      1. Oh look Jeffy has a new friend. And Jeffy calls himself a libertarian but can only find progressives that agree with him. Fuck Joe Biden.

        1. Yeah maybe you are drunk again. I most decidedly did not agree with Joe Friday’s assertions. I did, however, respond politely. Is that now a cardinal sin in your book?

          1. You thanked him. Joe Friday and is a new progressive troll who only regurgitates talking points. Hmmm. Not making any accusations here, but isn’t it extremely coincidental.
            I tried to have a meaningful discussion with him. He got the science wrong, when I disproved him he accused me of not being a real scientist and kept regurgitating the same talking points over and over again. I provided actual citations to him at length. He dismissed them. I quoted from textbooks on how he got definitions wrong. He accused me of being wrong. He doesn’t want meaningful discussions he wants just wants to spout his talking points.

            1. And I guarantee he will now claim that I am not a real scientist and none of my citations were correct and tell me to Google it. Oh and I cherry pick only science I agree with (after dismissing a meta-analysis that disagreed with his talking points). Because that is all he did two nights ago.

            2. I thanked him for his comments. It is called being polite. It is not an endorsement of his every word. Sheesh.

            3. I have no knowledge of any previous discussion you may or may not have had with Joe Friday.

            4. Joe Fuckday might be a sock. He said you didn’t vote or voted for Jo. So he seems to have some knowledge of your past posts. However, I don’t know when you talked about it last time. I admire your persistence in trying to have meaningful discussions with people.

            5. Of course I read everything soldier posted, including his regular misstating of my position, or even simple quotes and tried to respond, usually politely, though with criticism. I accused him of pretending to science while bending it to his true discipline – ideological thinking. He kept repeating a survey of peer reviewed studies on masks as if it was the be all of the subject, but the survey ended in April of 2020. I posted about 10 current studies and a news summary of some of them, which he dismissed as beneath his ancient peer reviewed literature. He presented as an intelligent if ideologically rigid observer of facts, clearly a disguise for just an angry drunk unable to tolerate dissent from his one true religion.

              1. We are facing a true communication problem here, because “ideologically rigid observer of facts, clearly a disguise for just an angry drunk unable to tolerate dissent from his one true religion” can be applied to others as well. Well, drunk on ideology, for the general context.

              2. No you never posted ten studies. You stated you found them on Google. I also showed you were wrong about endemic. And just like I predicted you did exactly what I said you would. Because you did the exact same thing every time I countered you two nights ago.
                And I guarantee you will continue to do it because you can’t stand being shown to be wrong.
                soldiermedic76
                September.14.2021 at 10:48 pm
                Flag Comment Mute User
                And I guarantee he will now claim that I am not a real scientist and none of my citations were correct and tell me to Google it. Oh and I cherry pick only science I agree with (after dismissing a meta-analysis that disagreed with his talking points). Because that is all he did two nights ago.

                1. soldier, I linked to approx 10 studies. Look it up.
                  I agreed with you that there was a growing consensus that Covid would become endemic and also said the hope was that it would be of limited impact, meaning compared to what we have been going through. That is all true.
                  It is also a fact that the review (“meta-analysis”) you kept citing as the last word on mask studies ended on April 2020. That was in the quote you posted from it.
                  The larger fact is that you cherry pick whatever information is counter the overwhelming consensus of scientists and medical experts advocate on vaccines and masks because of your belief system, while claiming the mantle of scientific truth.

              3. And by that I do NOT agree that this applies to soldiermedic. It is just fucking generally applicable to anyone anyone disagrees with.

                Fuck, you would think that in spaces where everything is written down and saved indefinitely, there would be more substance in general.

              4. And I wasn’t drunk then, I had one beer. And I am not tonight. Just pissed because we couldn’t ship some calves that were supposed to go out because we couldn’t get them penned up. Just FYI my true religion is NOT politics. That is the problem with progressives, they replaced religion with politics.

                1. It’s because they have nothing else to believe in. And their progressive bigotry causes them to deny the value of anything spiritual. They are hopelessly lost in how they project this human need into the political realm.

                2. soldier, I ran a 30 head cow-calf farm for 15 years and have done the worming and castrating myself.
                  Politics is superior to religion because it is about reality. The name of this magazine is Reason, right?

      2. Chem, briefly:

        1. Vaccines mandates as presently defined – or as ever defined in America I think – are not forceful injections into hog tied subjects, but a requirement for use of public spaces or facilities. The consequences may not be pleasant, but they are there.

        2. On lockdowns, you make sense, but though you may want this changed, there is ample legal precedent for regulations of private property used for public accommodations or used in interstate commerce. In the general I favor this, though I am sure you could point out abuses I might agree with you on. By the way, you may find it amusing or not, that the Republican Governor of Florida is involved in a law suit with cruise lines because he want’s to restrict their ability to enforce their own vaccine rules. This guy is supposedly on the short list for ’24 Presidential candidate and is sucking up big donor money.

        3. The finer points of this one are about the differences in intent, and I would not want to see it common that Americans were held responsible for careless behavior unless real damages occurred. Of course that’s what many law suits are about and in serious cases, criminal prosecution. Is this really an area where a libertarian position would differ from existing practice.

        4. Good luck!

        1. “but a requirement for use of public spaces or facilities.”

          Any company with more than 100 employees is a public space or facility? Ok commie.

          I’m gonna skip Biden and go right to fuck you.

          1. Good point R Mac and justified by protection of workers under OSHA. We’ll see if it holds up in court.

        2. 1. Take the vaccine or lose your job. Sounds totally their own choice. It is still the government mandating it backed up by people with guns.
          2. Lockdowns are an infringement of freedom of association.
          3. Depends on the extent of harm and if you can prove that the carelessness alone caused the harm. Since it’s virtually impossible to prove who someone got sick from, especially with a virus with high morbidity, how could you prove negligence or intent?

          1. 1. Take the vaccine or lose your job. Sounds totally their own choice. It is still the government mandating it backed up by people with guns.

            Only if the vaccination is mandated by the government. If not, and a private employer mandates it only for his/her employees, then at some point we have to decide if we favor at-will employment or not.

            2. Lockdowns are an infringement of freedom of association.

            I agree.

            3. Depends on the extent of harm and if you can prove that the carelessness alone caused the harm. Since it’s virtually impossible to prove who someone got sick from, especially with a virus with high morbidity, how could you prove negligence or intent?

            Well sure, from a practical point of view, it’s probably impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a plaintiff’s illness was absolutely caused by a defendant’s virus. So my question is more of a theoretical/philosophical question. But who knows, perhaps with advances in medical technology, it may be possible to know with some certainty, via genetics, if a particular person’s virus came from a particular other person.

            1. 1. It is the government now saying it. I disagreed but not vehemently when it was private companies. I wouldn’t agree with companies who fired employees for getting abortions orne fusing abortions either.
              2. No need.
              3. We have the technology now but you’d have to get both parties to agree to genetic testing. And it’s fucking expensive. So it’s practically impossible.

            2. “Only if the vaccination is mandated by the government.”

              Been in a cave the past week, Lying Jeffy?

        3. 1. Vaccines mandates as presently defined – or as ever defined in America I think – are not forceful injections into hog tied subjects, but a requirement for use of public spaces or facilities. The consequences may not be pleasant, but they are there.

          And from a libertarian perspective I think this viewpoint ought to be reconsidered. I am more willing than most to entertain utilitarian suggestions on the wisdom of vaccine mandates, BUT, the cost of lost liberty must be weighted very heavily in the calculation. I would only entertain such a thing if there was perhaps some virus that was both highly contagious and highly lethal. But not for the flu. (No, COVID is not ‘the flu’, that is just illustrative.)

          2. On lockdowns, you make sense, but though you may want this changed, there is ample legal precedent for regulations of private property used for public accommodations or used in interstate commerce. In the general I favor this, though I am sure you could point out abuses I might agree with you on. By the way, you may find it amusing or not, that the Republican Governor of Florida is involved in a law suit with cruise lines because he want’s to restrict their ability to enforce their own vaccine rules. This guy is supposedly on the short list for ’24 Presidential candidate and is sucking up big donor money.

          Well I do not necessarily favor the ‘ample legal precedent’. I’m trying to approach this issue from a more theoretical/deontological perspective. And I am no fan of De Santis, that is for sure.

          3. The finer points of this one are about the differences in intent, and I would not want to see it common that Americans were held responsible for careless behavior unless real damages occurred. Of course that’s what many law suits are about and in serious cases, criminal prosecution. Is this really an area where a libertarian position would differ from existing practice.

          Of course like any tort, the victim would have to prove real tangible damages from the alleged harm. In theory it is no different than how courts work now, EXCEPT when it comes to diseases and viruses. I have never heard of any lawsuit or case where a plaintiff successfully sued a defendant for causing the plaintiff to get sick. There are special cases when it comes to AIDS, but that is only because of special legislation passed for that particular disease. I am asking, why is the *knowing* transmission of disease exempt from the ordinary legal process, from a libertarian perspective? Maybe that is a topic that could use further examination.

          1. COVID is not the flu, but it is far closer to being like the flu than say smallpox. It has a high morbidity and a low mortality <0.2% for all age groups, under 0.1% for those less than 65. Approaching zero percent for those < 18. And it is a single strange RNA virus (like influenza) which are highly prone to mutations , so it is unlikely the vaccine will remain protective, it has a huge number of animal hosts (like influenza). No it's not influenza but it shades an awful lot of characteristics of influenza.

            1. Single strand

    5. If vaccine mandates are so important that we have to force working citizens and legal residents to take them, but Congress and the federal courts are exempted and migrants that are brought here from Afghanistan and which DHS detains at the border aren’t being forced to take the vaccine?

      1. soldier, all the above should be under mandates for vaccines, and my guess is that in short order they will be, barring successful legal opposition. ICE already has an aggressive vaccination program going on at the border which has been largely successful, but migrants are allowed to refuse it and some do.

  26. Australia:
    DE. FEA. TED.

    1. If China invaded would you even care? I’m on the fence.

      1. It would violate the NAP. But it would be quick. The population accepts armed authority and their military is used to bullying unarmed citizens.
        China does not have the amphibian assault capabilities to invade Taiwan so Pa is likely out of the question.

      2. If it weren’t for a few people I know there, well, would I care if Australia turned into Angola? I would be sad about the wombats. I am a big fan of these critters.

        1. The silver lining would be that wombats would be available at Wuhan wet markets.

          1. I heard they’re delicious.

            1. What my dad says when I say I like animals. So mean.

          2. Remember when McDonald’s got busted for selling Kangaroo meat and everyone was upset? Not because it tasted bad but because Kangaroos are cute.

            1. From what I’ve seen kangaroos seem like assholes.

              https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2WGo4li2K0o

              1. They are. Most Aussies will tell you that.

                1. Well they would if they could ever leave lockdown that is.

  27. Sometimes we make jokes about the French or Italians because their armies ran or surrendered. Yet, if these Australian lockdowns were imposed in those countries, there would be barricades in the streets, riots, and near universal non-compliance. Meanwhile the tough English-speaking countries, known for resisting tyranny in WWII, roll over for this crap. Scotland the Brave? Britania rule the waves? Canadian courage? Anzac fight to the last man? U.S. Give me Liberty or give me death? Time for some new jokes.

    1. Sheep shagging surrender monkeys?

  28. Australia and USA are a good fit. Both cannot wins a war. One of them constantly celebrates its biggest loss – Gallipoli. Turks must roll over laughing each year.

    Australian has become the lock down country. Hey they are used to it. Aren’t they all originally convicts anyway. They wouldn’t know true freedom if they fell over it.

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