World

Leaving Afghanistan

The U.S. did not leave behind a safe and stable situation, but it was never capable of creating one.

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This summer, the U.S. government finally set an official end date for America's two-decade military misadventure in Afghanistan. After announcing a drawdown of the U.S. troop presence there in April, President Joe Biden declared at a July 8 press briefing that the U.S. "military mission in Afghanistan will conclude on August 31."

Fulfilling a campaign promise, Biden admitted what the U.S. should have admitted more than a decade ago: "The United States did what we went to do in Afghanistan," he said. The goal, he explained, was "to get the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 and to deliver justice to Osama bin Laden and to degrade the terrorist threat to keep Afghanistan from becoming a base from which attacks could be continued against the United States." He added that "we achieved those objectives."

The mission was not, Biden said, "to nation build." Rather, "it's the right and the responsibility of the Afghan people alone to decide their future and how they want to run their country."

This will not be a full disengagement. Biden said the U.S. will continue to give the Afghan government money and weapons, including 37 Black Hawk helicopters. He added that America will still try to play some role in "determined diplomacy to pursue peace" in a nation where turmoil was the norm before and during the U.S. presence.

Biden acknowledged that the Trump administration laid the groundwork for the withdrawal by brokering a deal with the Taliban that was meant to get them to stop attacking U.S. troops, cut all ties with al Qaeda, and negotiate meaningfully with the Afghan government in exchange for U.S. departure (which was supposed to happen by May 1 under the original Trump agreement).

Critics question whether those terms have been effectively met. Still, had the new administration reneged on the deal, Biden said, "the Taliban would have again begun to target our forces." Overthrowing the militant Islamist group was a U.S. goal, and that was achieved before 2001 ended. The U.S. stayed so long afterward, however, that the wheels of endless Afghan tribal unrest have again put the Taliban in a position to take control of the country.

Biden has admitted that it was delusional to perennially insist that "one more year" of occupation would fix Afghanistan. After all, 2019 brought the highest recorded Afghan civilian death toll of the U.S. occupation.

Like the occupation itself, the pullout has not been without hiccups, embarrassments, and policy mistakes. In June, the American military contingent that operated a major airfield in Bagram left in the middle of the night and waited until U.S. troops were at the Kabul airport, an hour away, to inform the Afghan commander of their departure. After U.S. troops shut off power, looters rushed the base.

The late journalist Michael Hastings, whose reporting helped drive Gen. Stanley McChrystal from his job managing America's Afghan operations, observed in 2012 that "U.S. forces are not fighting and dying to combat terrorists, but are fighting and dying in local political disputes." Ending those disputes was never within U.S. competence, and the American training mission never created a trustworthy and competent Afghan security force. What Hastings wrote then remains true today, and Biden should stick to his committed withdrawal even if the security situation for the Afghan government worsens.

During this 20-year folly, Biden noted, sounding like an op-ed writer decrying U.S. foreign policy fecklessness, "a trillion dollars [were] spent training and equipping hundreds of thousands of Afghan National Security and Defense Forces," 2,448 Americans were killed, 20,722 more were wounded, and "untold thousands [came] home with unseen trauma to their mental health."

The U.S. record in Afghanistan does not suggest that any continued meddling would do much good. Most of our aid and reconstruction money was wasted on boondoggles or lined the pockets of corrupt officials and contractors. The U.S. never got any better at understanding the nation's internal dynamics, which were generally united by distrust and disdain for foreign occupiers.

No matter how much money the U.S. threw at it, the Afghan government could never produce any semblance of security in most of the nation. The U.S. will not be leaving behind a safe and stable situation, but it was never capable of creating one.

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  1. SLOPPY PULLOUT!

    1. LOL are wingnuts actually saying that?!

      In fact, the Biden Administration handled the entire thing perfectly. I heard they even executed a precision strike against two high-level ISIS-K planners.

      #LibertariansForBiden

      1. They’re trying to Benghazi the situation.

        (Benghazi definition -= take ordinary foreign SNAFU and moan incessantly about it until it is elevated into full-blown CT from fake scandal status)

        1. Responds to parody in earnest.

          1. The parody has a real political pro-Dotard POV.

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        2. Tell the people stranded there about the ‘ordinary foreign snafu’, smart guy.

          1. You should have told the people who are stranded to get out months ago. Or they should have been smart enough (self-preservation instinct, if nothing else) to recognize that leaving long ago was the sole sensible course.

            Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

            1. Ah the Artie rhythm method of safer sex. Bigotry without pregnancy.

            2. Asshole bigot attacks droolin’ Joe for the fist time!:

              “You should have told the people who are stranded to get out months ago.”

              Oh, yeah. Please make the world a better place; fuck off and die.

        3. We will chip in and pay for your one-way ticket to Afghanistan.

        4. You mean when they had Intel the embassy was going to be attacked, pulled out defence and left civilians in there, and then blamed a YouTube video as a scape goat? Which you tube video is Biden going to pick? I would recommend saudies in audis by remmey

          1. You’re thinking of Bush on 9/11 and the famous Aug PDB saying “bin Laden planning attack on USA”.

            1. “Pedo planning to post kiddie porn” =/ you will definitely be caught in the act.

            2. No, pretty sure that they’re talking about the time you guys arrested an unrelated Egyptian filmmaker to try and cover Hillary’s fuckup.

            3. No, you lying sack of shit he’s spot on with Obama.

              https://www.forbes.com/sites/billflax/2012/10/18/benghazi-four-americans-died-obama-lied-and-the-press-complied/?sh=5aa63594225c

              It’s fucking hilarious that you try to paint yourself as anything other than a Demfag.

              1. What’s wrong with arresting someone to cover up your own fuckup?

        5. “Benghazi definition -= take ordinary foreign SNAFU”

          Lol, talk about piss-poor damage control, Buttplug. Hope you didn’t get fifty-cents for that.

          1. Snafu now =
            1] Repeatedly ignoring pleading phone calls from your own Ambassador
            2] Telling troops 10 minutes away to “stand down” when they want to go in for a rescue
            3] Refusing air support for a target an hour away… for 13 hours
            4] Two weeks later standing in front of the UN, still blaming a Jewish filmmaker.

            Updated List
            4] Exfil your flanking cover before anything else
            5] Exfil your troops before civilians [something that any 1st Lieu knows and would be court-martialed for] especially while not under fire
            6] Leaving $83B including your most sophisticated weaponry behind, even when you know the enemy is hours away from taking it
            7] Not removing it, even now
            8] Putting your enemy in charge of your intelligence and Exfil of the operations and the citizens you abandoned
            9] Droning a US foreign aid worker and 7 children and calling it a win cuz you need political optics

            Yeah, just some ordinary snafus – – – – – for which anyone below the rank of general would be court-martialed and given the full intention of purposely arming an enemy would be an airtight case of treason for anyone who didn’t have the political connections that those in charge of the above have.

            1. You forgot denying security enhancements multiple times for political optics.

      2. Biden targeted one of the most famous terrorists ever with that drone strike that killed him and his family including 7 children.

        https://www.dailywire.com/news/breaking-target-in-kabul-drone-strike-was-aid-worker-no-ties-to-isis-or-secondary-explosion-nyt-reports

        The battery was posing as an aid worker and had developed a scheme to make explosives look like ordinary water as he headed “home” to his kids. We all know “kids” is code word for terrorists when missiles are launched at them.

        The Times reports:

        Times reporting has identified the driver as Zemari Ahmadi, a longtime worker for a U.S. aid group. The evidence, including extensive interviews with family members, co-workers and witnesses, suggests that his travels that day actually involved transporting colleagues to and from work. And an analysis of video feeds showed that what the military may have seen was Mr. Ahmadi and a colleague loading canisters of water into his trunk to bring home to his family. While the U.S. military said the drone strike might have killed three civilians, Times reporting shows that it killed 10, including seven children, in a dense residential block

        The water based explosives even hid the secondary explosions the military promised was the real cause of the death of 7 children.

        1. The Bushpigs called that “collateral damage”.

          Move along now.

          1. Lol. Yes. Deflect from your daddy biden. Obama had more drone kills than Bush. Odds you went back that far.

          2. A war crime is a war crime, no matter how often you cry “Bush.” Biden is currently in office and should be charged, apprehended and face trial immediately to prevent further war crimes. If you want to go back to previous incidents and charge, Bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell, Obama, Clinton and Kerry I’d support that too. But there here and now is botcher Biden. Biden lied and innocents died.

            1. If trespassing in government buildings is a capital offense, so is taking water home to your kids.

              1. Not sure of this is complete incompetence by authoritarians or a planned desensitization to make future activities more accepted.
                In Vietnam, when an innocent was killed, the saying at the time was “just a mere gook.” And to some in the US, killing innocent Afghanis may fall under that perspective.

            2. He may have drowned civilians but it’s not like he raped a woman, or I mean, it’s not like he took under the table payments… Um… Wait it’s not like he used the secret service to keep his son out of prison… Dang this is getting hard one more try… At least he didn’t tweet anything that hurt the media’s feelings

              1. It’s not like he helped his boss illegally spy on journalists and opposition party leadershi… oh wait.

            3. A war crime is a war crime, no matter how often you cry “Bush.”

              Trump proved that a sitting US POTUS cannot be charged with a crime – no matter how guilty. Even murder.

              Impeachment/Conviction is the only remedy.

              1. Yet Trump was impeached twice. And he’s not in office.
                Biden is in office. And committed a war crime. Glad you agree he should be tried for this.

                1. Trump is quite possibly the only person impeached on evidence that completely exonerated him, but implicated his successor.

        2. Odds the Taliban were the ones providing the “over-the-horizon” targeting that helped get this guy killed? I’m thinking they’re rather high. Doesn’t matter; Afghanistan is old news, and Biden needed a patsy for the suicide bombing.

          Watch. Most of America is already forgetting Afghanistan, and it hasn’t even been a month since the withdrawal.

          Our elites have become shockingly incompetent over the last few years. Maybe they just hid it better before?

          1. A Tiktok country has the attention span of a moth. Sure, it will flutter around like mad when it’s provoked, but put another shiny object over here and pass out the bumper sticker slogans to the parrots and like magic, it’s all gone. If needed throw out another close to home diversion for everyone to get mad about and the former turns into the vapor referred to as “old news”.

  2. To all you Americans across this great land heading out to watch college football later today to watch your favorite team play, and especially you young people, let’s see if we can actually outdo last week. Let’s get even bigger, better, and louder “Fuck Joe Biden” chants going in stadiums from sea to shining sea. Let’s make them so damn big and loud that Park Slope Welchie Boy, Goth Fonzie Wop, Mango, Dipshit Dave Weigel, and Jacob “Lord of Strazele” Sullum all break down sobbing uncontrollably!

    Remember 9/11.

    And fuck Joe Biden.

    1. Hey Mikey, would you fill us in on that special commission you said would uncover “the biggest scandal in US history”?

      I even forgot the name of it so I can’t search for it. What was it again? Something that big shouldn’t be ignored like the lamestream media is doing. What was it again?

      1. Wow, you were up early today Weigel. Were you up all night long fighting those suicidal “sad clown” urges?

        1. What is the name of that commission, Mikey? You and Trump called it.

          As a commenter here you have the Reason staff nailed as phony journalists for ignoring that scandal.

        2. Found it!

          “Unless Bill Barr indicts these people for crimes, the greatest political crime in the history of our country, then we’re going to get little satisfaction unless I win and we’ll just have to go, because I won’t forget it,” Trump said.

          https://thefederalistpapers.org/us/ag-barr-says-findings-obama-admin-spying-op-wont-come-election-silver-lining

          Had to use my Google powers because the lamestream media won’t cover it! But “The Federalist Papers” is all over it!

          Durham. That is the one you warned us about, Mikey.

          And Reason IGNORED it completely. I see what you mean Mikey. Reason is in the pocket of Team Blue.

          1. turd lies. It’s what turd does. Do not forget that every post by turd is or cntains a lie.
            turd is incapable of telling the truth and too stupid to understand teh difference between his lies and the truth.
            turd is a pathological liar; you might just as well argue with, oh, M4e.

          2. Bigger than Watergate, that’s for fucking sure.

            Say Shrike, Chuck Colson of Watergate fame was sentenced to prison for possessing a single FBI file on a political rival.

            What’s the penalty for a President employing the Director of the FBI, the Deputy Director of the FBI, the Chief of the Counterespionage Section of the FBI, the Director of the CIA, the Director of National Intelligence, and members of the Justice Department and the State Department to gather dirt on members of the opposition political party in an effort to ensure his former Secretary of State wins the Presidency?

            Nothing, right?

            1. Hillary had more fbi files on her closet during Clinton’s presidency than that.

    2. Not going to happen. The fact is most of us like President Biden, just like we liked President Obama, President Bush and so on. The few of you can yell till you are blue in the face, but as loud as you get you will still be few.

      1. Don’t bother Mikey. He is looking for info on that commission that uncovered the “greatest political scandal in history” that he and Trump warned us about.

        Mikey rightfully rode the ass of the Reason people for ignoring it completely out of their anti-Trump bias.

        I forgot name of the commission though. Mikey will know it.

        1. Ka-ching, fifty-cents. That one was very much on message.

          1. Also, are you denying that happened, Buttplug?

            Odd how Watergate, the scandal of the century at the time and resulting in the resignation of the Leader of the Free World, did not deter a Democrat President whatsoever.
            In the least.
            He knew that the Washington establishment and the press had him covered.

            If only John Dean had used active duty CIA and FBI people to spy on Nixon’s political opponents instead of the retired Hunt and Liddy.

            So Obama’s FBI used that bogus file of fiction bought by Hillary’s campaign to mislead a judge so it could spy on the nominee for the other party and then pressure a probe after GOP victory, but this isn’t a scandal about the corruption of Democrats or DOJ for Buttplug, because shut up.

            Buttplug won’t consider it a shocking scandal impacting democracy and undermining the rule of law until the moment a Republican copies it.

      2. We love Big Brother.

        1. “He gazed up at the withered face. Eight months it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the wrinkly visage. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. Moderation4ever had won the victory over common sense. He loved Joe Biden.”

      3. Biden the Botcher has a long history in Afghanistan and Americans don’t like ineptitude.
        Senator Biden voting for the invasion and funding it for 7 years.
        Vice President Biden helping to oversee the occupation for 8 years.
        President Biden botching the withdrawal that included releasing thousands of prisoners from Bagram, abandoning Americans there, abandoning allies there, arming the Taliban, lying about what was happening and committing a drone strike war crime against innocent Afghanis as a “retaliation” to an ISIS-K suicide bomb that killed thirteen US servicemen and dozens of others. Biden deciding to abandon Bagram in the middle if the night gave up the two runway and much easier to defend location that helped result in the successful suicide bomb. It was classless of him checking his watch during the return of their bodies to Dover.

        1. Another vote for SLOPPY PULLOUT!

          1. Another vote for sloppy pullout Biden to face war crime charges in Afghanistan.

          2. “Another vote for SLOPPY PULLOUT!”

            Prime example of turd’s constant mendacity.
            He, by trivializing droolin’ Joe’s fuck-up in what turd sees as humor, he hopes to minimize the colossal fuck-up in reality.
            turd lies; it’s what turd does. If turd posts it, it is a lie or some attempt at mendacity.
            turd is incapable of telling the truth; turd is a pathological liar.

          3. It was sloppy. Monstrously sloppy, criminally sloppy.

            It didn’t have to be such a disaster, but look at how Buttplug tries to handwave it away with a juvenile sex euphemism.

      4. Proof of parody confirmed.

        1. Yep. Went a little overboard with this one.

    3. Thanks to the way Joe Biden bungled things, Sept.11, 2001 will go in to the History books as a resounding win for terrorists.

      It would have been preferable to just send the Taliban pallets of cash (ala Obama) and give them $100 billion worth of the world’s most advance military material on Sept 12, 2001.

      That would have spared thousands of lives, tens of thousands of injuries, physical and mental, and eons of heartache and tears.

      Fuck Joe Biden and all the hate filled democrats that voted for him!

  3. Afghanistan like Vietnam was a war we felt we had to keep fighting to justify starting the conflict. The fact is what this country needs to learn is how to cut it loses. Doubling down on a poor hand doesn’t make it better, it just means you lose more.

  4. Actually, the situation was pretty safe and stable over the last years, with the US mainly providing intelligence and air support to the Afghan forces that did the dirty work of eliminating some Taliban on the ground.

    Was that reason enough to stay there? No. If anything, then from a fiscally conservative viewpoint. Too much spending that didn’t directly benefit the US. But no need to be dishonest about it and pretend the US and Afghan governments couldn’t manage to keep a semblance of stability in the country. It was always going to take a long while to transform Afghanistan into a liberal democracy. Even current liberal democracies didn’t become such overnight. It was just not our job to do it.

    1. Considering liberal democracies in the west are dying, creating new ones is even less likely.

      1. “Fuck liberal democracy” – t. Australia

      2. France is looking into “Frexit.” This is like the fall of the Roman empire.

      3. What R Mac said.

        Stolen from elsewhere, but seems apt:

        America is now a corpse, infested with maggots. Liberals are cheering for the maggots. Conservatives are cheering for the corpse.

        1. Wow, that’s incredibly apt.

  5. How long until we do it all again somewhere else? 10 years? 5 years? 1 year?

    1. I give SleepyJoe 6 months.

      1. Is that for a new military adventurism or a passing away date?

    2. Welp, if his poll numbers keep tanking, he’s going to need something soon. We’ll be bombing some rat-ass poor third world country within the next couple of years.

  6. Biden botched the exit, transitioning it into a phrenetic abandonment. Biden left behind Americans, Afghan allies and a cache of materiel. He provided the Taliban with the names of Americans abandoned there. And to top it off, he drone striked innocent people that resulted in multiple lives being lost including children.

    1. 5k Americans or green card holders rescued. 1k SIV estimated. 80k unvetted refugees the other. And then he lies about how many ate left behind.

      1. Are*

        Because we know only the taliban is eating now.

        1. They were eating Biden’s ass before pounding it bareback for weeks in front of the whole world. Maybe this explains botcher Biden’s squint; a permanent Talibang afghasm.

  7. “Critics question whether those terms have been effectively met. Still, had the new administration reneged on the deal, Biden said, “the Taliban would have again begun to target our forces.”

    When Doherty says that, “critics question whether those terms have been effectively met”, he’s referring to critics of Trump’s deal saying that the Taliban didn’t effectively meet those terms–and he’s right about what they’re saying. However, from the day Trump signed the deal with the Taliban, there wasn’t a single attack by the Taliban on U.S. troops, the Taliban released all the prisoners they were holding, and they opened negotiations with the Afghan government in Doha. It was the U.S. backed government in Kabul that was reluctant to open negotiations with the Taliban on a peace deal–and that’s because they hoped Trump would lose the election in November and Biden would not withdraw from Afghanistan.

    Here’s the crucial point: If anyone violated Trump’s deal with the Taliban, it wasn’t the Taliban. It was Joe Biden. Trump’s deal had us out of Afghanistan by May 1, 2021, and a few days after Joe Biden came into office, in January, he unilaterally announced that the Biden administration was reviewing the terms of Trump’s deal and criticized it for failing to make the Taliban guarantee the rights of women. Most people thought this meant that the Afghanistan withdrawal was cancelled–because if we can’t leave until the Islamic fundamentalists that run the Taliban become feminists, according to Biden, then we can never leave.

    This is a crucial point: the Taliban apparently thought we weren’t leaving right up until Biden announced, in mid-April of 2021, that we were leaving after all–but not until September 11, 2021. That violated the terms of the agreement. From the moment Biden announced that he was violating Trump’s agreement by not leaving before May 1st, the Taliban started positioning their supplies and their troops to assault Kabul. This culminated in the Taliban strolling into Kabul unopposed on August 15th, 2021. If Biden had abided by the terms of the agreement by leaving before May 1st, the United States and our allies would have been out of Kabul long before the Taliban assumed control of Kabul.

    If there’s any question about whether the Taliban abided by the terms of Trump’s peace/withdrawal agreement of February 29, 2020, there shouldn’t be any question about whether Joe Biden violated the terms of the agreement. He did, and we’ve all seen the consequences. Biden is lucky the Taliban didn’t fully reopen hostilities with the United States on May 1, 2021. The reason they didn’t, presumably, is because they thought it better to just quietly, methodically, and peacefully make their way to Kabul. Why open hostilities with the United States when you can just walk in without firing a shot? Who here thinks the U.S. wasn’t tracking Taliban movements as they moved towards Kabul?

    1. Well said as always, Ken. I read your posts well before I bother reading the articles.

      1. There are articles?

    2. Likely that Joe does not really give a shit about women in Afghanistan, since they will not vote in the US 2022 elections.

      1. The #metoo movement took a sabbatical once Biden got the nomination.

    3. There’s another piece that Biden seems to have missed. When he says;
      “a trillion dollars [were] spent training and equipping hundreds of thousands of Afghan National Security and Defense Forces,”
      it seems he doesn’t understand the makeup of those “hundreds of thousands” in that they’re largely just names on a piece of paper, known as ‘ghost soldiers’. Whether it’s just a name made up by a commanding officer or someone who splits their military pay with the CO while they perform and receive full pay for their real job. There weren’t hundreds of thousands of actual soldiers and the Afghan military knew this and that putting up real resistance to the Taliban would just result in more lost lives.

      The same happened in Iraq when ISIS was so quick to take ground. The cakewalk that the Taliban had should have been a surprise to no one. Perhaps the light dawned on Biden and he realized the folly of staying but more likely his handlers made the right whispers to the person typing talking points into the teleprompter.

      1. A lot of those soldiers were real, but many of them simply had no loyalty to Kabul government. There were thousands of Afghan soldiers who abandoned their weapons and their posts when the Taliban showed up. Even in the provinces, when the Taliban showed up, they’d give the soldiers an ultimatum–drop your weapons and abandon your post and you won’t be harmed. Almost all of them, apparently, took them up on the offer. There were more than a thousand Afghan soldiers assigned to guard the airport in Kabul, and they just abandoned their posts without a fight.

        To my mind, this is another example of the total lack of legitimacy enjoyed by the Afghan government we installed. If you can’t find soldiers that don’t care enough about the government that they won’t hesitate to desert, even without a fight, then the problem is that the Afghan government has little or no support from the people of Afghanistan. As a follow up to my argument about how legitimacy can’t be imposed by an occupation army, I’d also argue that, despite what internet neocons may say, legitimacy doesn’t necessarily come from democracy either.

        Putin enjoys a certain amount of legitimacy among Russians because he represents some of the authentic desires of some of the Russian people–be it for the way he openly pursues Russian interests or because they think he didn’t let the oligarchs of the Yeltsen era push him around. There are surely people in China who support Emperor Xi because he represents their authentic desire to stand up to the West and because they think he’s delivering on prosperity. The Afghan government, apparently, enjoyed none of that–despite holding what passes for democratic elections over there.

        My understanding is that Afghanistan was a deeply corrupt society under U.S. occupation. When you’re the occupier, you need to work with whatever warlord will fight against the Taliban, and if the only reason they’re fighting against the Taliban is because the Taliban won’t let them abuse, oppress, and savage their own people, then those are the leaders you need to support anyway.

        We associated sharia with a loss of liberty because we’re accustomed to rule of law, but in much of the Muslim world, the rule of law and sharia are synonymous. When the government sets the rules in the Muslim world, it’s usually a corrupt dictator who sets them for his own benefit. Sharia, on the other hand, was written by the hand of God himself. Look at the world through their eyes for a moment, and you might see the Taliban as the rule of law rather than the whims of corrupt warlords.

        There’s an old local cultural practice that has warlords taking young boys as sexual partners, and the original leader of the Taliban originally made a name for himself by hanging warlords in the public square for being child molesters. The local warlords were running protection rackets, robbing people in markets, and running massive kidnapping operations. These are the people the Afghan government had to support because they were the only ones who would fight the Taliban, and by supporting them, the Afghan government undermined whatever legitimacy might have survived being protected by a foreign occupation army.

        When the Taliban was taking over province after province, the reports were that they were taking the child molesters, the kidnappers, and the oppressors and hanging them in the public squares on their way to Kabul. The reports I read of the takeover of Kabul had it that the public markets opened as big or bigger than before after the Taliban took over. Everyone who worked for the Americans wants to GTFO, but that’s what happened to the Loyalists who fled the colonies for Canada after the American Revolution, too–rather than face tar and feathers forever.

        When I was in LA during the riots in 1992, there were mall security guards down the street from the hospital where I worked. As soon as the rioters showed up to loot the mall and burn it down, the mall cops just went home. They weren’t about to risk their lives fighting back an angry mob for the mall. I think that’s what happened to the Afghan army. Most of them were real people, but they had about as much loyalty to the Afghan government as your average mall cop has for Hot Topic. Mall cops fighting against the Taliban, are you kidding?!

        If you think of legitimacy in relative terms, the Taliban appears to enjoy some real legitimacy with the people of Afghanistan as a bringer of law and order. The Afghan government simply couldn’t compete with that, and the soldiers in the Afghan army simply refused to do so. They were there to get a paycheck. Conversely, if the Soviets invaded the USA a la Red Dawn circa 1984, you wouldn’t have needed to pay most of us to resist the Soviets under occupation, and that’s because, despite its flaws, the U.S. government enjoyed a relatively large amount of legitimacy with the American people and the USSR did not.

        1. If China invaded the US today, do you think as many would volunteer to resist? And if not, is that more of a liking to PRC now than the USSR then or more of a shift in who Americans are today?

          1. If the PRC occupied the United States, I think the response of the American people would make the response to the George Floyd incident over the summer of 2020 look like a peaceful protest.

        2. I’m reminded of the corrupt Lon Nol regime in Cambodia before April 17, 1975. The US armed them with the best weapons…which corrupt local military commanders sold to their Khmer Rouge enemies. There was also kidnapping for ransom and mass looting. A lot of Cambodians didn’t hear about the atrocities committed in the Khmer Rouge-controlled territories, but they did hear about how the disciplined Khmer Rouge cadre were famous for NOT taking the food or other possessions from any civilians they encountered. As for how they behaved after seizing total power, yeah well….

  8. “The U.S. record in Afghanistan does not suggest that any continued meddling would do much good. Most of our aid and reconstruction money was wasted on boondoggles or lined the pockets of corrupt officials and contractors. The U.S. never got any better at understanding the nation’s internal dynamics, which were generally united by distrust and disdain for foreign occupiers.

    No matter how much money the U.S. threw at it, the Afghan government could never produce any semblance of security in most of the nation. The U.S. will not be leaving behind a safe and stable situation, but it was never capable of creating one.”

    —-Brian Doherty

    1. 1) It isn’t just that the United States failed to create stability with our presence; it’s also that our presence was the force for instability.

      What we’re really talking about is legitimacy in the technical sense. Legitimacy is the right to exercise power in the minds of the people. Traditionally, the relative legitimacy of various countries was compared by looking at statistics like the number of police per capita necessary to keep the peace. Because they can keep the peace with a higher concentration of police, however, doesn’t mean that the police are a source of legitimacy.

      Under Ghaddafi or Saddam Hussein, it was necessary to maintain a large police force because without fear of the police, the people wouldn’t abide by the laws of the government. The British couldn’t keep the peace in Belfast in the 1970s without troops because the British government had very little legitimacy with a fat slice of the local population. In all those cases, however, the means to restore order and the source of the lack of legitimacy were the same thing!

      During the Rodney King riots in 1992, the local government in Los Angeles completely lost its legitimacy with a significant portion of the people, and order could only be restored when the president sent in the National Guard–to bring the number of police per capita up high enough to restore order. The restoration of order, however, didn’t mean that the people suddenly viewed Daryl Gates and the LAPD as having the legitimate right to exercise power.

      Legitimacy required Daryl Gates to step down, a black man to be put in charge of the LAPD, and the cops who assaulted Rodney King to be convicted on federal civil rights charges. Legitimacy would not have come from pouring more LAPD onto the streets to maintain order. Rather, doing that would have destroyed the legitimacy of the local government even further. In Redondo Beach, we generally don’t need interactions with the police to maintain order. People just follow the laws, more or less, without any police involvement at all.

      The impossibility of establishing a legitimate government under the occupation of the U.S. military has specific causes, and they’re all driven by conflating two different things in so many of my fellow Americans minds. On the one hand, there is order and stability, and, on the other hand, there is the right of the authorities to exercise power in the minds of the people.

      Law and order and legitimacy are related, but they’re two different things. Law and order can be the result of an occupation army of significant size, and law and order can be a result of legitimacy–without a sizable army or police force. You can inflict law and order on a population that views you as illegitimate with a sizable occupation army, but doing so will necessarily become the source of illegitimacy. Trying to impose legitimacy at the point of a gun is trying to put out a fire with more kerosene.

      1. But legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder. You cite the perspective of the occupied people, and their values and biases. But nation-builders and other idealists on the occupier side have their own perspectives. A political version of Dunning-Kruger makes it unlikely for occupiers to succeed.

        1. I think I addressed this in my comment below.

    2. 2) There’s this thing called the sunk costs fallacy.

      It’s important to make the argument against using an occupation army to try to establish a legitimate democracy. I just did so above. The neoconservatives and progressives are both terribly wrong when they try to do this. However, when we’re talking about quagmires and why Americans are prone to staying in them, there’s something bigger driving their thinking. It has to do with the influences on American culture, our ideas about heroes, and the sunk costs fallacy.

      If you take a survey of world literature course in college, you should come away with an impression of what heroic literature was like before the introduction of Christianity–and it wasn’t about self-sacrifice. In fact, scholars look at pagan stories, like the one about how Odin sacrificed himself on a tree to himself, as evidence of the influence of Christianity. Christianity has had a tremendous influence on our culture (Yes, even if you aren’t a Christian), and our idea of a hero is inextricably linked to the idea of someone sacrificing himself or herself for the benefit of others.

      My understanding is that Pat Tillman was an atheist, but he fits what most people think of when we think of a hero. We first became aware of him because of what he sacrificed–an NFL career–and the purpose of what he was doing, which was to save his fellow Americans from the scourge of terrorism. The circumstances of his death in Afghanistan were controversial because we didn’t want to hear that he was a victim of friendly fire. We wanted to believe that his life was sacrificed to save us–which is our definition of a real hero.

      When people were jumping off of the World Trade Center because they’d rather die from a fall than burn to death, and when everyone else in the building was flooding down the stairs to get out before the building burned or collapsed, firefighters from the NYFD and police from the NYPD were racing up the stairs of a burning building to see if they could save people who might be trapped–only to have the building collapse on top of them. This, my Christianity influenced friends, fits our cultural definition of heroism.

      There is probably nothing more sacred in our culture than a hero who sacrifices himself for others, and there’s probably nothing more villainous than someone who squanders heroes for nothing. Unfortunately, once we find ourselves in a quagmire, this makes us extremely vulnerable to the sunk costs fallacy. It makes us want to find some future benefit that will make the sacrifices of the past seem worthwhile. The neoconservative ideal would have us believe that freedom, democracy, and happiness for the people of Afghanistan is perpetually right around the corner, and if we leave now, then all those Americans heroes will have died for nothing!

      This is one of the reasons why it’s so important for libertarians to be patriotic. This is one of the reasons that it’s so important for libertarians to understand that Afghanistan was not a failure. It is true that establishing a legitimate democracy in Afghanistan at the point of a gun was an unachievable goal, and the politicians and bureaucrats who used our troops for that end should be condemned for it.

      However, the legitimate purpose of our military is to defend the Constitution from its enemies and the rights of the American people from our enemies, and when our heroes were injured or died in Afghanistan, they were defending the Constitution and the American people. They were not injured for nothing and they did not die for nothing. They’re all American heroes for sacrificing on behalf of their fellow Americans, and bringing our troops home now does nothing to diminish the value or importance of their heroism.

      1. “…Christianity has had a tremendous influence on our culture (Yes, even if you aren’t a Christian), and our idea of a hero is inextricably linked to the idea of someone sacrificing himself or herself for the benefit of others…”

        Or, Christianity is a result of our culture. Christianity did not arise from nothing; it was an adaptation of cultural influences arranged to allow a certain clique to hold power over others.
        There are times I’d suggest you confuse cause and result.

        1. We’re talking about religious ideas that predominated when Christianity was an outsider religion in Rome. We’re talking about religious ideas that tore the Catholic church apart from the bottom up. We’re talking about new protestant movements that arose in the New World before America was founded and rocked the established churches and the government after America was founded during the Second Great Awakening.

          We can’t completely escape the influence of a culture in which we’re steeped, and our culture has been repeatedly rocked by waves of Christian thought since before our government was founded. These waves sometimes overwhelmed and destroyed the established order (with the Civil War being just one example). I don’t think I’m putting the cart before the horse when I say that religion had a profound influence on the culture.

          1. You claim those to be “religious” ideas; I’d argue that they are cultual ideas adopted by the religious heiriarchy.

            1. I’ll buy that adopting self-sacrifice as a heroic ideal was good for various governments at various times, but the source of the idea in our culture was that Jesus sacrificed himself to save us. It may have been adopted by whatever government for their own reasons, but the government didn’t originate the idea.

              Notice, I don’t even think I’ve said anything here about Christianity’s influence on the culture necessarily being positive. I think I’ve just said that this was its influence on the culture–and, in fact, if that’s what it is, that’s what it is whether we like it or not. This is our cultural assumption, and this is its source.

              I’ve also said, in other threads in the past, that progressivism is a religious expression, and that progressivism is all about using the coercive power of government to force us to do things for what they see as the common good. Yeah, I’m on-board with calling that a perversion of Christianity.

              But progressivism isn’t the source of that idea, and the government isn’t the source of the Christian ideal I’m talking about. Like I said, it permeated the heroic literature of the ancient world and its influence can be seen in the heroic works on the Viking age from a thousand years ago.

              1. Progressivism is very much Christianity with God being subbed out for government.

            2. Read Joseph Campbell “the masks of god” for a dive into ancient cultures and the commonality of their gods and archetypes. Christianity isn’t fully unique in culture.

              1. It’s not fully unique in culture, but I think one could argue that the Enlightenment wouldn’t have sprung forth from pantheistic or collectivist religions.

                The march of progress within Christianity was almost always towards an individual relationship with God.

                1. This. The enlightenment is very much a product of Christian thought, beginning with Paul, through Aquinas, and, I’d argue, even Jan Huss and Luther.

                  1. Nutty.

                    The Enlightenment has been the slow piecemeal rejection of Christianity (which was the dominant Dark Ages worldview).

                    1. Hahahahaha, goddamn you’re historically illiterate.

                    2. It always amazes me how appallingly little you know.

              2. I dont know about that. The Greeks and ottomans were both scientifically way ahead if their peers. Same with the Egyptians.

                The biggest aspect of Christianity was the idea if individualism and ethos of hard work. The idle hands being the devils tools metric. It caused people to raise themselves up instead of relying on polytheism and belief in divination. Then again many Christians now are same in believing they are victims of society and have no forward path.

                But to say the polythiestic religions didn’t breed invention is to ignore much of history.

                Muslims believe on one guard but have fully reverted from individualism.

              3. “Christianity isn’t fully unique in culture.”

                I’m not sure what you mean by this, but 1) because other religions have things like the golden rule or sacrifice doesn’t mean our culture didn’t get it from Christianity, 2) if the idea of a hero as a sacrificial lamb came to Christianity by way of some earlier religion, it still came to our culture by way of Christianity, and 3) I was talking about that one aspect of Christianity’s influence on the culture specifically in my comment.

                1. Most cultures have the idea of self sacrifice for good of humanity. For example prometheus. Gsve his freedom to help mankind. Subjected to eternal torture. It isnt unique.

                  Look, I’m not saying Christianity is good. I’m just saying most global cultures formed the same archetypes in their cultural development. Some branched differently as time passed.

                  I highly recommend Joseph Campbell for exploration. One of the best reads I’ve ever had.

                  1. “Most cultures have the idea of self sacrifice for good of humanity.”

                    Almost none of the heroic literature before the introduction of Christianity made sacrificing oneself for others the essence of heroic virtue, and after the introduction of Christianity, almost all of the heroic literature features precisely that.

                    Glory, fame, riches, and honor, yeah, they might sacrifice themselves for that. Try to imagine Gilgamesh, Odysseus, or Aeneas sacrificing themselves for the benefit of people who are far weaker than they are, and it’s ridiculous.

                    Ancient heroes don’t sacrifice themselves for the benefit of lesser mortals. Prometheus was almost a perfect example of what NOT to do if you don’t want to end up like him. No one was supposed to emulate Prometheus.

                    1. You seemingly have a cursory knowledge of how prometheus was viewed in ancient Greece ken. Most of the gods were feared, prometheus was celebrated.

                    2. Where was Prometheus celebrated?

      2. Above, eyeroller asks a good question:

        https://reason.com/2021/09/11/leaving-afghanistan/#comment-9097103

        “How long until we do it all again somewhere else? 10 years? 5 years? 1 year?”

        If we don’t acknowledge that quagmires like Afghanistan are failures, and were a waste of lives if good people like Pat Tillman, not to mention a waste of massive amounts of money, then we make it more likely it will happen again.

        There is no slight against our military to acknowledge they were sent into a senseless war. They were not defending the Constitution or protecting the people in Afghanistan, and that was not their fault.

  9. Still, had the new administration reneged on the deal”

    The new administration absolutely, 100% reneged on the deal.

    It was supposed to be completed by May. It was supposed to happen during spring planting when the Taliban are busy. There was a schedule agreed to that the Afghan government and all the allies were aware of. Plans for the removal of equipment and drawdown of troops were in place.

    Reason knows this, and the lying Democratic Party paid shill, SPB2, who’s trying to run damage control for the administration here in the comments, knows this.

    But Joe Biden’s puppeteers threw that agreement in the garbage, because they are so smart and orangemanbad.
    They completely ignored the deadlines, never withdrew the equipment as scheduled, and told everyone that they were going to be there until the Taliban becomes feminist.

    Then they suddenly cut and ran three and a half months after the deadline, leaving the Afghan government and America’s NATO allies holding the bag.

    This administration is the first on in American History to be officially rebuked by the UK’s parliament for fucking them over so badly.
    Reason’s ignored this BTW, local story I guess.

    Buttplug is right in a way, his boy Biden really is remarkable.

    1. In all honesty, the Biden administration could have kept us in Afghanistan. That’s what I thought they would do, and all signs were that they intended to stay in Afghanistan indefinitely right up until mid-April–a couple weeks before we were due to leave on May 1.

      I think everyone was caught off guard by Biden’s decision to leave Afghanistan in mid-April. I think the Taliban was surprised, the Kabul government was surprised, our allies on the ground were surprised, and our allies in Europe were surprised.

      It’s like the Biden administration insisted on doing things incompetently. If you’re really leaving, then you should leave by May 1 per the agreement. Everyone in the world seems to have understood this–except for the Biden administration.

      I’m glad he left Afghanistan anyway, but for goodness’ sake, why insist on doing it incompetently? It’s very much in the same spirit as the announcement of the vaccine mandate. If he’d waited until after September 27, his $3.5 trillion budget reconciliation deal wouldn’t be facing so many headwinds.

      Why’d he shoot himself in the foot?

      It’s for the same reason he violated the May 1st deadline–because he’s incompetent.

      He can’t even do what’s in his own best interests.

      1. “In all honesty, the Biden administration could have kept us in Afghanistan. That’s what I thought they would do, and all signs were that they intended to stay in Afghanistan indefinitely right up until mid-April–a couple weeks before we were due to leave on May 1…”
        We were already down to a troop-count of 2,500; the lowest in 20 years. I think he was forced to continue withdrawal, since any attempt to stay would have required and immediate and very large re-enforcement to avoid a masacre.

        “It’s like the Biden administration insisted on doing things incompetently. If you’re really leaving, then you should leave by May 1 per the agreement. Everyone in the world seems to have understood this–except for the Biden administration.”
        And Brian Dogherty.

      2. Why’d he shoot himself in the foot?

        It’s for the same reason he violated the May 1st deadline–because he’s incompetent.

        He can’t even do what’s in his own best interests.

        Exactly. Some more evidence for your point: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/11/us-pulls-missile-defences-in-saudi-arabia-amid-yemen-attacks

        Coupled with the news of a few weeks ago… (I’d cite, but this LOLtastic web forum. Duckduck: ‘Saudi and Russia announcing agreement to develop joint military cooperation between the two countries’, around 24 August)

        Anyway, the petrodollar is about to end. No idea what replaces it, but it won’t be good for us.

        1. Reason has been fully silent on Iran disallowing IAEA inspectors into their factories as well. Apparently the blue diplomacy is failing once again.

          https://news.yahoo.com/iaea-chides-iran-seriously-undermining-214947019.html

          1. I’ve no idea why they haven’t tested a device yet. They have to have one by now.

            LOL if they’ve sufficient supercomputer resources (plus our hydrocodes) to in silico validate their design.

            No petrodollar, not our problem. Libertarians will be thrilled.

            1. I believe the thought is they have the technology but not the miniaturization capability worked out yet. How to create a firing device is in the public domain already.

              1. I doubt it. For a sufficiently motivated nation state, it’s just not that hard. The Norks did it, and Allah knows the Iranians have greater resources. Is it going to be something exotic, that can ride an SLBM 7,000 miles, and is perfectly balanced such that it would miss its IP by a hundred yards at the most? No.

                But a Mk28 or double that-sized, 1 MT yield or so staged thermonuclear? Yeah, I think they could, and already have, something like that ready to go.

                Probably not fitting on any of the Houthi’s drones, but that’s what Paradise is for… Unless we’ve some (likely satellite-based) secret juju remote sensing that can detect a fission package en route, I don’t see these being stopped the first time.

        2. Preferred currency status will end shortly after, it’s already past it’s historical due date. The empire is finished and the emperor has no clothes.

      3. “Why’d he shoot himself in the foot?
        It’s for the same reason he violated the May 1st deadline–because he’s incompetent.
        He can’t even do what’s in his own best interests.”

        Well they’re definitely incompetent, but I think that the real reason was pure orangemanbad. They couldn’t stomach enacting one of Trump’s successes, so they threw it away and decided to make one of their own.

        Of course the Democrats had been trying to fuck up this withdrawal since July 2020: https://theintercept.com/2020/07/02/house-democrats-working-with-liz-cheney-restrict-trumps-planned-withdrawal-of-troops-from-afghanistan-and-germany/

        1. I’m voting for malevolence, lately. Not mere incompetence.

          What these clowns are doing, makes sense if you substitute, “What’s best for America’s Enemies?” for “What’s best for America?” as their mission statement. The vaccine mandate is going to add further stress to civil society.

          I think they’re bought. No idea by whom. Could be CCP, could be GloboHomo.

          1. I could see Biden owing the CCP some favors.

      4. I think Americans suddenly dying again under Biden’s watch would be even worse optics than pulling out.

        1. Yeah. But he ended up with both.

          1. In that vein, who else is surprised to not see or hear of any new atrocities coming out of there on this, the 20th Anniversary of their co-religionists killing a few thousand infidels?

            I’m pleased, at least. Doubt it lasts.

    2. “…The new administration absolutely, 100% reneged on the deal…”

      Correct.
      This is a blantant attempt at re-writing history; it is bullshit.

  10. The mission was not, Biden said, “to nation build.” Rather, “it’s the right and the responsibility of the Afghan people alone to decide their future and how they want to run their country.”

    But not those hillbillies in flyover country.

  11. “…This summer, the U.S. government finally set an official end date for America’s two-decade military misadventure in Afghanistan. After announcing a drawdown of the U.S. troop presence there in April, President Joe Biden declared at a July 8 press briefing that the U.S. “military mission in Afghanistan will conclude on August 31.”…”

    Doherty is full of shit.
    Trump set a date and negotiated agreements (which were orbserved by all parties) long before “this summer”. Droolin’ Joe ignored the plans and preceeded to deliver a colossal fuck-up of a self-administer ass-kicking, leaving some unknown number of hostages still under Taliban control in Afghanistan and no functional plans to rescue them.
    Very few doubt we should leave Afghanistan and fewer yet will claim is was anything like a victory, but the manner of leaving is the result of imbecilic incompetence; Biden should be impeached.

    1. Joe Biden didn’t get us out of Afghanistan. Donald Trump did. There is no doubt in my mind, if Trump had not set the wheels in motion, the US would not have left in August, or next August, or the August after that.

      Everyone pretending that it was some great accomplishment for Biden is full of shit. He’s been asshole deep, cheerleading the GWOT since it’s first fucking day.

      1. It’s only the draw-down to 2,500 which made it work (THX, Trump!); adding troops would have been horrible optics for droolin’ Joe, and so he proceeded to turn it into a colossal fuck up.

        1. Everything he did was for optics. I’m sure he would’ve stayed there if it polled well. He moved the date to 9/11 for a fucking photo op, and got 13 service members killed, droned a fucking aid worker and his kids, and left hundreds of Americans behind. It was disgraceful and dishonorable.

          Fuck Joe Biden. And fuck Reason for trying to defend him.

    2. Yes. And I gotta say this reads like something written in July and hastily revised after the final withdrawal. In any case the continuing narrative Reason is selling, that Biden is the great bringer of peace, is strait up bullshit. Trump’s deal was playing out according to plan until Biden violated the terms and then arbitrarily changed the terms months later. Had Trump served a second term there is no reason to believe that his deal would have failed except for the media and political class doing everything in their power to sabotage it. And you can bet Reason would have been fully on board with the neocons and swamp dwellers. I have no doubt that the Taliban would ultimately have prevailed. But without the debacle Biden created. The family that Biden droned would be alive today.
      And never forget my friends, Fuck Joe Biden.

      1. And fuck Welch.
        Reason’s opening of offices in DC was the death knell of what was a fine magazine.

      2. “Had Trump served a second term there is no reason to believe that his deal would have failed…”

        We will never know the counterfactual, but Trump had a proven history of flakiness and lack of follow through.

        We know what actually did happen, which is that Trump negotiated the deal, and Biden honored it and executed the withdrawal imperfectly.

        1. Trump’s two big government programs were delivering a vaccine in warp speed time and fostering a Middle East peace accord. Biden has transferred weapons yo a terrorist organization and drone strike killed innocent children.
          Jimmy Carter would done appreciably better than botcher Biden.

        2. “…We will never know the counterfactual, but Trump had a proven history of flakiness and lack of follow through…”

          Mike has a proven history of being a TDS-addled pile of lefty shit; any of Mike’s opinions regarding Trump can be safely rejected as being the rants of an assholish pile of lefty shit.

        3. If by honoree you mean ripped it up and shat on it.

          You don’t honor a deal by saying we’re going to review this and then waiting three months to say anything.

        4. holy shit, you are a dishonest fucktard

  12. Strange that Doherty says we’re not capable of creating a stable government. It’s been done before, albeit in other cultures more amenable to wanting stable constitutional or parliamentary forms of government. Afghanistan is mostly populated by goat fuckers and drug dealers, so in one sense we would never adapt that 6th century mentality to modern life. If we recognized that a long time ago then we should have left ten years back. But Obama was only thinking of his reelection chances and so he committed us to years more occupation and fighting. Trump negotiated a fair deal under the circumstances, Senile Joe Biden fucked it up completely.

    Anyone apologizing for Obama or Biden’s antics deserve to live in the camps with the refugees. If you voted for those reprobates you’re a treasonous fucking idiot.

    1. At the very least we should have left after we dumped OBL into the ocean.

  13. Let’s see if white Mike can top these people today.

    Pam Keith, Esq.
    @PamKeithFL
    On 1/6/2021,

    9/11/2001 ceased being the worst thing that happened to America in my lifetime.

    It’s really weird and painful to process and say that.

    But it’s the truth.

    And quite frankly… it’s not even close.

    Brian Stelter
    @brianstelter
    Network TV anchors were “the closest thing that America had to national leaders on 9/11. They were the moral authority for the country on that first day,” especially with political leaders in bunkers or otherwise out of sight…

    1. That mentality explains a lot about the media over the last 20 years.

    2. What kind of brittle lightweight adds, “Esq.”, to their Twitter username? Does she practice or otherwise primarily discuss legal issues in her day job? I genuinely don’t know (and am too lazy to check).

      No one gives a shit that you learned how to lie for three years.

      1. She is a political candidate in Florida. So many failed lawyers end up as democratic politicians or commentators.

  14. For over a century America has prospered because we’ve had the ability to send our military where and when needed. We’ve pushed the field of battle far away from our shores. We’ve overthrown nations in battle and through CIA treachery. The last dying gasp of British hegemony after the fall of the Ottoman empire and the subsequent wars in Europe enriched us. But we went too far. We got involved in conflicts in Asia and the Middle East that had no benefit for us. Some over fears of communism, which proved to be a paper tiger, but collectivists can’t do shit and fail every time. Some over irrational fears of oil shortages. Our ability to cast our net far and wide resulted in a large enemies list who nursed their wounds waiting to strike back and wish for the end of British and American power.

    They probably won’t have to wait much longer. We’ve put ourselves in massive debt, shifted our manufacturing and technology overseas, enriched Asian nations at our expense, and we keep importing the riff raff of the world. As well we debate nonsense like which bathroom should a person use and how to be respectful to religious death cults on this day of days. We locked ourselves up over a virus with a 0.2% chance of death. And we “elected” a senile old man to lead us. This is not the way.

  15. If communism is a paper tiger, buckleup, how is it winning right here?

    We abandoned our culture, our values, and ultimately, we’ll abandon our civilization. Things are about to get a whole lot worse.

    1. I’m still going to maintain some small faith in our electoral process, that it will rectify things in 2022, and then again in 2024. Maybe that’s stupid and Pollyanna of me, but I’m not ready to give up on it yet.

      If it fails, the 74 million pissed off Americans who have been mostly well behaved up till now are going to come off the leash. And they’re the ones who have all the guns and raise all the food, and they haven’t abandoned our values. The other half can’t even change a tire.

      My point is, it’s not lost. There’s still some small hope for the system to work next year, and after that, it’s game on. It’ll be bad, but my money is on the people with the guns and the food.

      1. The fact that the DoJ is openly weaponized the last 4 months, and longer if you count the last 5 years to get a president, made me lose almost all faith.

        The only hope we have is a return to federalist principles.

  16. We are a nation divided but thankfully there is one thing we can all agree on. Fuck Joe Biden.

  17. The pandering of the left and the security state and their performances today are something to see.

    I am now calling anyone in government, IC, military brass, etc the left. I assume the left and neocon and security state are one.

    Prima facie is Bush the Younger. Just…yuck. Shut up already. You’re not in office. Nobody cares. Go back to Wacko.

  18. Former President Bush in Shanksville compares Jan 6 insurrectionists to 9/11 hijackers:”in determination to defile our national symbols they are children of the same foul spirit and it is our duty to confront them.” Wow
    11:20 AM · Sep 11, 2021·Twitter for iPhone

    Al Qaeda = Trump MAGA Trash

    Even George W Bush sees the light.

    full quote

    There is little cultural overlap between violent extremists abroad and violent extremists at home. But in their disdain for pluralism, in their disregard for human life, in their determination to defile national symbols, they are children of the same foul spirit. And it is our continuing duty to confront them.

    The pro-fascist Trump America must be democratically eliminated!

    1. Biden released Al Qaeda when he abandoned Bagram. And ISIS.

      Bush and Biden started the whole debacle. Trump negotiated a date to leave. I can see why Bush would be mad. Is Bush the hill you’re gonna die on?

    2. Clearly buttplug became a bushpig once this was said.

      buttplug = leftist

      He’s a Biden voter. Senility and all.

      1. Exactly. Buttplug loving Biden, Obama and Bush.

    3. Bush was a RHINO… Everyone knows it.

      And there’s nothing fascist about Trump or his fans. And the only reason leftard’s like you call it that is to bully (suppress the opposition) which ironically is what fits the definition of ‘facist’..

      It’s just like when you leftards were running around screaming the Nazi-Right to no end till it came out it was EXACTLY what the left is. Leftards spend a lifetime projecting their own disgusting beliefs onto anyone they can. It’s all about ‘gang’ bullying just for the sake of satisfying their own Power-Mad thrills of inadequacies which were formed by being useless P.O.S. who decided stealing from those people was more important than creating something worthwhile..

      1. Consider that W. Bush, and his peers, are the real Republicans. While those of us participating at this site, yet voting R in big elections, are the iconoclasts and heretics.

        Goldwater fans, people who thought Buchanan had a point, reluctant but surprised Trump supporters: We’re the RINOs. Not them.

        1. I just go by the platform principles of the party as published.

          1. I want to hear Donald Duck say that sentence

            1. Well; from where I sit President Trump presided to those platform principles better than any other Republican President I’ve seen.

  19. Oh…. So it was Trump the ended the war in Afghanistan.
    I didn’t like him during the primaries but he’s proven to be the best President in my entire life.

  20. Our evacuation from Afghanistan was ‘damage control’, the lesser of two evils. If our troops had remained in Afghanistan, they certainly would’ve been engaged by the Taliban and its’ the Tonkin Gulf, in Afghanistan. And he couldn’t bequeath that, to Kamala.

    He took the fall for the K-girl.

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