Coronavirus

Did COVID-19 Leak from a Wuhan Lab?

Circumstantial evidence that it may have is mounting.

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In March, World Health Organization (WHO) Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus called into question the organization's report on the origins of the COVID-19 coronavirus. The stage-managed investigation didn't take place until a year after the pandemic started, and reckoned that it's most likely that the virus jumped to humans from animal species, deeming the lab leak hypothesis extremely unlikely. Tedros observed, "Although the team has concluded that a laboratory leak is the least likely hypothesis, this requires further investigation, potentially with additional missions involving specialist experts, which I am ready to deploy."

"I do not believe that this assessment was extensive enough. Further data and studies will be needed to reach more robust conclusions," he added, noting that "all hypotheses remain on the table." For his troubles, Chinese officials are suggesting that Tedros' comments are being used by "some forces with ulterior motives [that] are challenging the authority of and science behind the joint report." But if the Chinese government has nothing to hide, why has it stymied investigations into the origin of the virus from the very beginning of the pandemic?

In an extensive analysis at The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists published last week, science journalist Nicholas Wade evaluates the likelihood that the virus has a natural origin versus the possibility that it escaped from the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Noting that ultimately "neither the natural emergence nor the lab escape hypothesis can yet be ruled out," Wade nevertheless concludes that the "proponents of lab escape can explain all the available facts about SARS2 [COVID-19 virus] considerably more easily than can those who favor natural emergence."

As evidence, Wade notes that while researchers have identified a very similar RaTG13 virus in horseshoe bats, they have not so far found a likely progenitor of the COVID-19 coronavirus in any wild or domesticated species. Initially, it was suggested that a local Wuhan wet market where wild animals were sold for food may have been the source of the initial outbreak. That was later discounted when further testing found that many of the first cases had no link to that market.

Wade argues that circumstantial evidence strongly supports the idea that the virus escaped from the Wuhan Institute of Virology. First, the lab has been collecting and doing research on bat coronaviruses for years and, perhaps not so coincidentally, the outbreak begin in Wuhan and nowhere else. Second, he claims that the initial uniformity of the strain of virus at the outset of the pandemic suggests that it was a gain-of-function variant experimentally adapted to be especially good at infecting human cells. Gain-of-function research seeks to improve the ability of a pathogen to cause disease. Wade also puts great evidentiary weight on the fact that the virus supposedly has an unusual furin cleavage site (a specific protein that the virus uses to enter human cells). Wade believes that its presence in the COVID-19 virus suggests lab manipulation.

Wade is particularly suspicious of EcoHealth Alliance researcher Peter Daszak who oversaw a National Institutes of Health grant used to fund research on coronaviruses at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. He notes that Daszak was involved in organizing an open letter published in The Lancet in March 2020 that decried "rumours and misinformation" suggesting that the COVID-19 virus did not have a natural origin. The letter did reference nine different early studies that concluded that the virus most likely had a natural origin. It is, however, notable that Daszak was a member of the WHO investigatory team that went to China in January. Daszak's longtime association with the Wuhan Institute of Virology certainly does have a conflict of interest whiff about it.

Wade asserts that the NIH grant was used to fund gain-of-function research on coronaviruses. Reading the abstract suggests that the funded research was actually focused on collecting viruses from the wild and developing predictive models to assess the risks of spillover into humans. On the other hand, in a video interview just days before the outbreak was identified, Daszak could be alluding to some gain-of-function research in Wuhan. In any case, even if Daszak is honest in his denials that doesn't mean that NIH funding might not have been diverted to gain-of-function research by lab leaders in Wuhan. Yesterday at a Senate hearing, Anthony Fauci, member of the White House Coronavirus Task Force, strongly denied that the NIH had ever funded gain-of-function research at the Wuhan laboratory.

Wade claims that "no known SARS-related beta-coronavirus, the class to which SARS2 belongs, possesses a furin cleavage site." Therefore it seems most likely to him that the furin cleavage site was added through gain-of-function experimentation in Wuhan. Certainly some research supports this contention, whereas other researchers report, "Furin cleavage sites in spike proteins naturally occurred independently for multiple times in coronaviruses. Such feature of SARS-CoV-2 spike protein is not necessarily a product of manual intervention, though our observation does not rule out the lab-engineered scenario." More research and analysis will be required to sort these claims out.*

Wade also asserts that if the virus "jumped from bats to people in a single leap and hasn't changed much since, it should still be good at infecting bats. And it seems it isn't." Actually, according to some non-peer-reviewed research, some bat species are susceptible to COVID-19 infections. Among these are the common bent-wing bats (Miniopterus schreibersii) that are also found in the Yunnan caves from which the Wuhan virus researchers collected coronavirus samples. But have Chinese researchers sought to (re)test for the presence of a virus similar to the COVID-19 virus among that species of bat in Yunnan? The Chinese government still has plenty for which they ought to answer.

However, Wade is correct when he observes, "The records of the Wuhan Institute of Virology certainly hold much relevant information. But Chinese authorities seem unlikely to release them given the substantial chance that they incriminate the regime in the creation of the pandemic."

It is notable that on September 12, 2019, the main database of samples and viral sequences of the Wuhan Institute of Virology was taken offline. Institute researchers claim that that was done to prevent hacking. There is, however, no reason WHO or other investigators cannot now be given access to it.

"Absent the efforts of some courageous Chinese whistle-blower, we may already have at hand just about all of the relevant information we are likely to get for a while," Wade concludes.

The WHO investigation was pitifully inadequate. On March 4, a group of skeptical researchers issued an open letter questioning the WHO report and calling for an independent "forensic investigation" into the origins of COVID-19. If the Chinese government has nothing to hide concerning the origins of the COVID-19 virus, then it should welcome such an inquiry. If not, then Chinese researchers and officials should expect continued—and increased—skepticism about their assertions that the COVID-19 virus was not introduced to the world via a lab leak.

*Update: On the question of whether the furin cleavage site indicates lab manipulation see: "Is This a COVID-19 'Smoking Gun,' or Is it a Damp Squib?"

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325 responses to “Did COVID-19 Leak from a Wuhan Lab?

  1. WHO seems about as trustworthy as other international orgs, like FIFA.

    1. FIFA is at least sometimes entertaining.

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      2. …the Useless Nations..

        Its not a LEAK when its a bio weapon experiment deliberately released!

        1. “reckoned that it’s most likely that the virus jumped to humans from animal species, deeming the lab leak hypothesis extremely unlikely.”

          Recall that LIE from the 1980s and AIDS?

          Same one.

    2. But it is worse. When it covers up the truth people die.

    3. Nick Wade’s piece deserves to be read on its own.

      Ron seems to be channelling Anne Coulter a lot these days

      https://www.takimag.com/article/i-will-not-be-scienced/

  2. Oh, you mean it really is the China virus, Bailey?

    1. By “mounting” he really means “creeping out from having been purposefully buried and/or studiously ignored.”

      Kind of like voter fraud when the “right person loses.”

      1. Pretty sure Ronald McBailey himself wrote an article calling the lab leak supposition ridiculous

        1. Pretty sure you’re wrong. It’s what you do.

      2. I interpret “mounting” as meaning “Occam’s Razor eventually wins out every time.”

        1. Nah, it’s just a heuristic and does fail from time to time.

          But I’m inclined to believe it in this case. An awful lot of coincidences hard to explain otherwise.

        2. Occam’s Razor does not “Win” out every time. Just more often than not.

        3. I’m not sure Occam’s Razor points to the lab. Isn’t “a random virus popped up in a bat or pangolin then jumped to humans” just as simple an explanation as “scientists were researching viruses in a lab then one escaped”. Maybe I’m missing something – does the the lab explanation require fewer assumptions than the natural species jumping explanation?

          1. Yes, a shitload fewer. Read the Nicholas Wade piece.

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    2. That’s offensive! Call it the Kung Flu.

      -jcr

      1. Sweet and sour sicken.

    3. No, it’s the NIH-NIAID virus with the dangerous work farmed out to China. The culprits are American virologists.

  3. News travels slow in the Reason circles, but it does travel.

        1. um… the article Minadin linked to was published several months before your article. But thanks for the link, want to read that one tonight.

          5.6.2020 vs JAN. 4, 2021

          1. Yes, I think Diane Reynolds (Paul.) realized that. I was confirming the premise. So we are all cool. It took that news a year to make it back around.

    1. Well, we certainly can’t be talking about this before the election. Now that the Proper Outcome has been secured, the media is allowed to ask questions.

      1. It’s apparently okay to talk about this stuff now that the Washington Post is talking about it. Now that the WaPo has given it legitimacy, you won’t get banned from Twitter or Facebook for talking about it like Zero Hedge was.

  4. The experts didn’t save us, they killed a bunch of us.

    1. To appease China. Rolled right over for ’em.

    2. Killed us with what? Just the flu?

      1. Exactly. MAGAtards want it to be the scary China Virus and “just the flu” at the same time. 2020 really revealed how dumb most rightoids are.

        1. Fortunately, their IQ is measurable – unlike the Biden zombies who thought that a corpse would make a good president. Like Trump was and will be again. We all look forward to your squeals and tears.

          1. Trump is a rotting Orange corpse

      2. That’s a nice strawman. There are plenty of people that acknowledge that it is worse than most flus, yet still can see that the response was insane and excessive, doing more harm than the virus could have.

  5. Personally I don’t think it matters where the virus came from, especially now that Biden has shut it down like he promised.

    Obsessing over the lab leak theory is a cynical attempt to blame China for the pandemic, when in reality it was mainly Drumpf’s fault. And with white racists physically attacking Asian Americans at an alarming rate these days — I’m sure we’ve all seen the chilling videos — we must not contribute to Sinophobia.

    #JustAcceptThatItJumpedFromBatToHuman

    1. Almost too cynical; you are riding the edge, OBL.

      1. Mask slipping.

    2. But what about the pangolins?

      1. They’re currently leading the NHL east.

      2. delicious

      3. They haven’t had a chart hit since the last time Casey Kasem talked about them.

      4. The world’s smallest pangolin playing the world’s saddest song?

    3. Poe, or genuine? I can’t tell…

      1. Assume you know OBL is a parody…but to have to ask is a recognition of his ability in that regard.

      2. OBL is a known parody. Welcome to the party.

    4. Do you get paid in dollars or renminbi for posting insane Chinese propaganda and (ahahahahahaha) blaming (ahahahaha) Trump! Ahaaaaaaahaha . . .

  6. Now, now.

    Let us not get lost in the weeds of a discredited conspiracy theory. Every single expert agrees that undercooked bat soup resulted in a global pandemic. And unless you want to get swatted like Roger Stone, you better believe it.

    1. Hah

  7. Saint Fauci funded it.
    I look forward to the hanging.

    1. I look forward to the hanging.

      Will he be double masked?

      1. I believe it is customary to put a bag over their head, just prior to the execution.

        1. Double bagged?

          1. Only if we’re hanging yo’ mama.

            1. Oh no you dint!

  8. It would take a significant amount of verified evidence for me to believe that it was just a coincidence that a coronavirus outbreak randomly occurred in the same place that a Chinese lab is located that specifically researches coronaviruses and conducts gain-of-function research to investigate transmission from animal to human.

    1. Nothing to see here citizen, move along.

    2. IMO, it’s hilarious how millions of dead bodies around the world are effectively running cover. Like the NIH being tied to gain-of-function research in China is peachy-keen as long as nobody dies and even if a few (million) people die, that’s no reason to oppose the research. It’s definitively ass-backwards.

      But, of course, people like Bailey are OK with breeding and growing fully sentient monkey-human hybrids and then grinding them up for organs. So, we probably shouldn’t be too surprised coming from people who consider ethics to be noise.

      1. Those monkey chicks are pretty hot. Don’t pretend you don’t want some that. For science I mean.

    3. I was assured this was a ‘conspiracy theory’

      1. You heard right. Now STFU.

    4. Add to that China’s known flippant attitude to industrial and medical safety and strong cover-it-up culture, and it’s shocking that it wasn’t something more deadly.

    5. If you want a really far out conspiracy theory, Ron Unz thinks it was actually released by some of our own in China.

      1. That’s not a conspiracy theory – that’s the most likely scenario. It was plainly evident that the virus was intentionally spread, and everyone in government was in on it. Even trump.

        1. Any opportunity to blame Trump.

    6. Why would you believe your own lying eyes? TOP MEN have spoken.

  9. Biden won’t take any action against, or criticize China for knowingly and intentionally transporting the Wuhan virus (regardless of its specific origin) to virtually every other nation, which will be viewed by non Chinese historians as the deadliest biological warfare ever.

    The reason why Biden won’t take action against, or criticize China is because China has everything on Hunter Biden’s laptop (and more evidence of corruption by the “Big Guy”). In sum, China owns Joe Biden.

    1. Guess I need a new conspiracy theory; this one is actually proving to be TRUE!

    2. “Biden won’t take any action against, or criticize China for knowingly and intentionally transporting the Wuhan virus (regardless of its specific origin) to virtually every other nation…”

      Which is why journalists like Bailey are covering this now, and not back in May 2020, where this story might’ve actually resulted in consequences for China. (And a 2nd term for Trump.)

      Nothing new has been recently revealed on this subject, that wasn’t available for discussion last year. It’s simply permissible to discuss this evidence now.

      1. Ding ding ding!

      2. Bingo.

        I suspect that, with time, evidence will emerge that the accidental “leak” was not so accidental. The implications of such a revelation would be monumental so I expect a great deal of deliberate obfuscation at the hands of our American Pravda.

        1. See, despite the giant, erupting volcano and 12 story neon sign of Gates’s Foundation picking a coronavirus for their global emergency simulation in 2019, I actually do think the initial release was an accident. If only because I doubt the Chicoms could’ve been secure enough to hide the plot.

          Their actions in the weeks subsequent, on the other hand…

          1. If it was a leak, I expect it was accidental because foreseeing that they could mostly contain it in China but the rest of the world couldn’t seems far too big brained. But purposely releasing it right next to the virology center is asinine. And vehemently covering up a accidental release as if it was a planned event is right in China’s wheelhouse.

            1. But purposely releasing it right next to the virology center is asinine. And vehemently covering up a accidental release as if it was a planned event is right in China’s wheelhouse.

              My thoughts exactly.

              1. Yup. I still think the initial containment protocols arose out of someone with a lot of gold braid and medals taking a look at that lab, and completely losing their shit when they saw how lax the lab’s accounting, material controls, and containment protocols were.

                Which leads to the question of, “What sort of apocalyptic shit are those idiots messing with?”

            2. They’re just capitalists who don’t want to lose their NIH funding, like the rest of us.

            3. “But purposely releasing it right next to the virology center is asinine.”

              It does give the Chinese pretty much complete control over any subsequent investigations into the origins of the virus, though, and world media has been pretty cooperative in helping China suppress this story.

            4. Why would the Chinese care about the old and sick people that this kills? If anything, this is MORE reason for them to let it loose. Old people are expensive.

              Remember early on when #BoomerRemover was trending? Same thing.

            5. Plus knowing the CCP I’d venture they’d have used the Uighurs as test subjects, so Xinjiang province would have been the likely location for an intentional release inside their borders. Added bonus they would have had talking point for why they were rounding them up because they were dirty people creating deadly viruses with their poor sanitation practices (or some drivel like that).

            6. Release it in wuhan to make it look like an accident. That’s what our army would do.

        2. Leak or intentional… China banned intercontinental flights out of Wuhan but allowed international ones for almost a month before trump banned them. They clearly intended it to spread to other countries once it was out, there’s no way to square those decisions otherwise.

          1. Yes, they all intended for it to spread. I remember all these governors dragging their feet – stalling. Waiting for the damn virus to take root. They didn’t even try to pretend they wanted to stop it’s spread.

      3. He’s not a journalist, he’s a writer at best.

        Copyboy for his paymasters is closer to the truth.

      4. “It’s simply permissible to discuss this evidence now.”

        Very strange to me, since there were plenty of angles of attack if they had pushed the lab leak hypothesis. It was Obama the Sage who banned GOF research, and Trump’s administration that lifted the ban.

        Then he appoints the most prominent proponent for GOF research, who convinced his administration to lift the ban, and who funded said research in Wuhan with American tax dollars, all of which led to the pandemic… as top doctor in charge of fighting the pandemic.

        They could have not just blamed him for his allegedly abysmal pandemic response, but for the origins of the pandemic itself.

        1. Good points, and perhaps why Trump or Carson didn’t want to look at the origins of this virus more closely.

          It was a giant mistake if they did, but you’ve given great reasons why they might’ve.

        2. That’s a lie. It’s well known now and widely reported that the trump admin did not lift the ban. Fauci and the nih went behind the administrations back and began funding Peter daszaks eco health alliance. They then send that funding to the wiv.

          It’s all on fauci and the nih. Nice try though with your TDS.

      5. Uh I think you forgot that conservatives were too busy at the time denying Covid was even a serious threat. I might even accept the conspiracy theory that “just the flu” was planted on the right by the Deep State to suppress the more dangerous idea that China was responsible.

        1. Look at the infection fatality rates for this versus any of the serious flu outbreaks of the 2000s. For those 75 and under, it is the flu. If not even easier to beat.

          No, there was a serious effort in 2020 to deflect and ignore any evidence this came from a Chinese lab, and it wasn’t the Right that was doing it.

        2. Hmm. This is anecdotal, as I have mentioned elsewhere, but: multiple of my family members have had it (including one aged 99). Barely knew they did until getting tested. Wasn’t anywhere near as bad the flu has been for some of them in the past. That’s not to say I don’t know of people in my social circle who have died from it, but it is what it is.

        3. Why do people think that comparing to the flu is dismissive of danger? The flu is a serious thing that kills 10s of thousands of people every year. And it affects children and pregnant women in much more serious ways. Comparison to the flu does not mean someone is trying to say it’s no big deal. The flu is a big deal.

    3. You guys desperately want the China-Biden axis to be true, to give you one of your perfect “BOTH SIDES” defenses for GOP-Russia. Except we have no evidence for this. In fact, we have more evidence that Trump was beholden to China. The ZTE incident (which he did reverse after), and his daughter’s Chinese trademarks which were expedited by the Chinese government while she was an executive branch official. That is a huge and blatant conflict of interest, and far more sever than anything Hunter has been accused of. Furthermore, Hunter is not and will never be an executive branch official, unlike Trump nepotistic appointments of his children and their cashing in on those positions through favors from foreign governments. It’s all right in front of your nose.

      1. Careful; you may end up eating those words, or seeing them forever copied and posted every time you show up.

        1. I am confident in this at least. Hunter will not get a white house job.

          A position in whatever bullshit charity fund the Bidens start after his presidency however…

          1. Hunter, as a petroleum expert, will be hired by the White House to fix the current gas shortage in the southeast.

      2. That is a huge and blatant conflict of interest, and far more sever than anything Hunter has been accused of.

        Dumb. Just. Dumb. “O.J.’s glove didn’t fit, ergo Rice is the most misogynistic player in NFL history.”

      3. I don’t know about any nefarious conspiracy, but Biden sure is being a pussy about China. I don’t know what should happen, though. Hostility (or even war) with China would really suck. But they are getting pretty evil empirey.

        1. It’s dumb. Hunter filled out a 4473 to purchase a firearm, no one accused him because there is no question that between him lying and/or the background check system didn’t catch him when it should’ve, a/the law was broken/failed. On top of that, ignore the overt conflict of interest of a derelict member of the hoi polloi buying a gun that his father campaigned on peventing people like him from owning. On top of that, ignore Burisma. On top of that, ignore that Hunter was hiding under his dead brother’s name to avoid paying child support to a stripper. Instead, pay attention to the maybe conflict of interest where no crime was committed because it was worse than the crime that no one accused Hunter of committing.

          1. But at least Hunter doesn’t send out mean tweets . . .

            1. And he bravely battled snorting coke off of an Asian prostitute’s ass and posting the vid on pornhub. He deserves our sympathy not condemnation. You monster.

          2. Yes, Hunter Biden buying a gun is totally equal with Trump appointing his Chinese business doing kids to positions inside the white house.

            Likewise, Kushner’s 185 “corrections” on his SF86 form which would have landed anyone else in prison was very legal and cool.

            The most fuckable daughter of Trump getting her requests for Chinese trademarks expedited by the Chinese government while working for daddy in the White House is likewise very legal, very cool.

          3. Let’s not forget that H.Biden openly wrote a book where he talks about his drug use and habit, during a period where as the son of the vice president, he had 24/7 secret service protection. This means that sworn police officers not only knew about his drug use and covered it up, but either went with him to obtain it or obtained it for him. There is no explanation for this set of facts that isn’t horrific.

            The Secret Service needs to be cleaned up from within. This isn’t China. The president’s bodyguard is not there to sit by with utter corruption and flagrant lawbreaking.

            1. Now look at the rumored reasons for Malia Obama’s (cough) gap year abroad (cough)….

              The SS can’t do their jobs if their principals think the SS is going to arrest them for breaking the law, and consequently tries to hide from the SS. Just one of those things.

        2. I disagree that Biden has been a pussy on China.

          The recent State dept. visits to Taiwan and other acknowledgements of Taiwan look like he might be shifting off of the one-China policy. The Chinese, at least, perceive that to be very anti them.

          And in his rhetoric, he sounds a lot like Trump:

          >”China and other countries are closing in fast. We have to develop and dominate the products and technologies of the future,” Biden said.

          And in a line that drew some of the strongest applause of the evening, he said, “There is simply no reason the blades for wind turbines can’t be built in Pittsburgh instead of Beijing.”<

          https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-talks-tough-china-first-speech-congress-2021-04-29/

      4. See BlueAnon is out in force…

        Why is it most conspiracy theories that the left oppose turn out to be true while the left can investigate theirs for years without turning up anything credible..

        1. Don’t go spilling the beans that Russiagate was a hoax. Oppresso Liber here will be stuck trying to assimilate the fact that it’s not a “BOTH SIDES” defence when only their side is doing it.

      5. defenses for GOP-Russia

        What’s to defend? That turned out to be bullshit.

        Hunter is not and will never be an executive branch official

        Of course not. He’s Joe’s bag man. Can’t do that with a real job.

        -jcr

  10. “Daszak’s longtime association with the Wuhan Institute of Virology certainly does have a conflict of interest whiff about it.”

    “Whiff?”

    More like stepping into a stinking pile of shit.

    1. More like stepping into a stinking pile of shit.

      ^ This.

      “EcoHealth Alliance researcher Peter Daszak who oversaw a National Institutes of Health grant used to fund research on coronaviruses at the Wuhan Institute of Virology”

      That’s way more than a “whiff” of conflict of interest.

      Also worth mentioning that EcoHealth Alliance was one of the first outfits to rush out a report declaring lab escape to be an unfounded conspiracy theory in March of 2020 where the report affirmatively declared that there were no conflicts of interest.

      To reiterate: they didn’t simply strategically fail to mention it – they actively and deliberately lied about it.

      1. Daszak was a co-author on how many papers with Shi? I’ve seen at least two, and I haven’t an author search at medline or the like yet.

        Having to hear that sack of shit blather on throughout 2020 on any TV interview that would have him, how this virus couldn’t possibly have been made in a lab, and those were the worst kinds of anti-Chinese conspiracy theories, was incredibly galling.

        1. I expect a large part of the medical research community to double down on this, as well, as it doesn’t take a soothsayer to see what shift would happen in the public’s attitudes toward this kind of research if this really gets legs.

          1. The Global Virome Project has earmarked $1.2B in funding for GOF research this year. For “pandemic preparedness”.

      2. I am pretty experienced when it comes to Gov contracting. When the Gov contracts with groups like EcoHealth Alliance, the Gov always knows who the subcontractors are and what their scope of work is. That paper exists somewhere. However, those SOWs can be written so that a Mac Truck can be driven through the specifications.

        1. Yes – and with the added layer of this being an international research agreement, there’s going to be a small mountain of documentation of exactly who was doing what and who owns what part of it.

          1. International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) is a big fucking deal in DoD…and will land you in jail pretty quick if the regs are not followed. I assume they have something similar for scary bio tech.

    2. ^^^^ Agreed. I noticed this too. It wasn’t a whiff. Daszak was covered in a conflict of interest like being covered in a “stinking pile of shit.”

  11. Alex Jones here: Let’s grant the extremely unlikely scenario that this virus was created in the lab and that Chinese scientists designed this virus as a bio weapon against the United States by releasing the virus in Los Angela’s Wuhan at the behest of the Gates Foundation and the WHO. And throw in that Joe Biden and the Democrat party along with their Jewish globalist elite allies at the Soros family were somehow (but obviously) involved. Question: when should we invade China and which Trump son should be appointed as emperor, Qusay or Uday?

    1. Muted; bye.

      1. This guy can’t handle Alex Jones’ truth.

        1. You’ve reached peak stupid, thanks. Muted.

          1. Yep, he’ my first mute.

    2. Idiot.

    3. Alex Jones here: Let’s grant the extremely unlikely scenario that this virus was created in the lab and that Chinese scientists designed this virus as a bio weapon against the United States by releasing the virus in Los Angela’s Wuhan at the behest of the Gates Foundation and the WHO.

      Are you sure that’s safe enough? How about adding some contingencies around a plot to undermine Trump and develop a secret super-soldier genetic modification serum disguised as a vaccine?

      I wouldn’t want you to get caught assuming something that someone’s actually suggesting.

      1. Is that also being proposed? Hahahaha… you guys have fucking lost your marbles and sound deranged.

        1. Is that also being proposed?

          No. He’s making fun of you. That’s clear to everyone else.

          1. He’s such an idiot.

        2. Some people must think it’s important to know the true origin of a pandemic that’s killed millions.

          But not socialists.

          1. The State tells them what they need to know. Questioning that is an indulgence.

    4. The second assertion is your strawman.

    5. Pay your mortgage.

    6. Let’s grant the extremely unlikely scenario that this virus was created in the lab

      Not that I expect either a serious or well-informed answer from you, but why do you characterize this as “extremely unlikely?”

      Is it because that phrase was used in the WHO report? Did you read the rest of that report?

      1. My own statistics to text characterization.

        Extremely unlikely=~1%
        Very unlikely=~5%
        Unlikely=~10-20%
        Plausible=~ 30%

        1. Cool.

          So . . . why do you characterize this as “extremely unlikely?”

          Is it because that phrase was used in the WHO report? Did you read the rest of that report?

          1. He pulled the numbers out of his ass; they are as relevant to the argument as any random phone number.

        2. The only thing left is defiantly which would be 44-54% by your math. Congrats on being with the logical people and seeing it cam from a lab

          1. Damn typo

    7. It’s people like this that make people like Alex Jones seem reasonable.

      1. I don’t know if I’d go that far.

        1. Being completely dismissive of theories that turn out to be true makes people like Alex Jones seem credible by way of comparison.

          How ’bout that?

          In baseball, they think you’re doing a great job if you’re right 30% of the time. Conspiracy theorists can get away with an even lower percentage and seem prophetic–when others are stupidly dismissing anything and everything they say.

          1. Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you. I am not being facetious.

    8. American Socia1ist
      May.12.2021 at 1:22 pm

      “Alex Jones here:…”

      Actually fucking lefty pile of shit ignoramus there.

    9. I marvel at your apparent ability to use html while simultaneously being incapable of spelling Los Angeles.

      1. You know… most of the time I’m writing these things I’m on the crapper or driving on the Interstate.

        1. I figured you to be drunk.

          1. Not mutually exclusive.

        2. Do you at least wear a mask when you’re texting while driving? Can’t be too safe.

        3. Not surprising, as your comments are homogeneously execrable.

    10. Simma down now. At this point the lab creation theory seems unlikely but plausible enough to investigate further. Are you saying it shouldn’t be investigated?

  12. Fauci’s claims need to be thoroughly scrutinized. From Rand Paul’s questioning of Dr. Fauci yesterday:

    “Fauci noted that although the NIH did fund a project at the Wuhan lab, it was not meant for “gain of function” research into human-made superviruses.

    The NIH gave a grant to a group called EcoHealth Alliance, which hired the virology lab in Wuhan to conduct genetic analyses of bat coronaviruses and examine how they spread to humans. The Trump administration last year forced the NIH to terminate the grant.”

    https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/552857-rand-paul-clashes-with-fauci-over-coronavirus-origins?

    Fauci’s statement comes across as a non-denial denial.

    IF IF IF it’s true that the NIH funding for the experiment wasn’t specifically meant to add gain of function capability to viruses engineering from bats, the purpose of the experiment was to take those bat sourced viruses–that had already had gain of function capability added to them–and make them transmissible to humans (through humanized mice).

    Fauci’s answer appears to be designed to shield both himself and the NIAID (NIH) from culpability or complicity in this research. Not only that, Dr. Fauci’s answer appears to be contradicted by the publicly available and independently verifiable grant application to the NIAID for this research. I’ll include the text with a link below, but it looks to me like Dr. Fauci’s NIAID must have known what they were funding.

    1. “I’ll include the text with a link below, but it looks to me like Dr. Fauci’s NIAID must have known what they were funding.”

      Why wouldn’t they have known? It’s what they were funding at UNC until Congress freaked out, and turned off the funding spigot.

      1. I posted the text from the grant application that Fauci’s NIAID approved below.

    2. Fauci’s claims need to be thoroughly scrutinized

      Absolutely — but, there will be no movement on this under the present administration. The only way I can envision Fauci being held to account for his apparent involvement in this entire debacle is a massive, WikiLeaks type of document dump. But, with Assange rotting away in custody and the overwhelming majority of the corporate press carrying water for the CIA/FBI, I would not count on it. We can only hope.

    3. the purpose of the experiment was to take those bat sourced viruses–that had already had gain of function capability added to them–and make them transmissible to humans (through humanized mice)

      This is sort of what I’m trying to articulate below as the most generous take you can have on Fauci, which is that he’s arguing that this doesn’t technically count as gain-of-function happening in Wuhan because the gain-of-function had already happened before the virus was sent to Wuhan. Which is really, really weaselly at best.

      1. There is one other “weaselly” point to consider about the plausibility of Dr. Fauci’s denial. The scientist who performed this research wrote an earlier research paper about the gain of function projects she was doing with bat viruses. In that paper, she references the potential ethical, legal, etc. aspects of the dangerous gain-of-function research she is performing. Here is the statement:

        “[Scientific Review Panels] may deem similar studies building chimeric viruses based on circulating strains too risky to pursue”

        https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

        It may be that the reason this research was farmed out to a lab in China is because no research institution in the United States would undertake such a dangerous enterprise. Maybe it’s because of prevailing ethical codes. Maybe it’s because of law and regulation. Maybe it’s because of insurance concerns.

        Whatever the reason, if they couldn’t get gain of function research done in the USA, chances are that Dr. Fauci’s NIAID was well aware of that issue. And if they farmed it out to a Chinese lab for that reason, to evade whatever ethical, legal, or financial considerations were preventing them from performing gain of function research on viruses in the USA, it would be preposterous of Dr. Fauci to claim that neither he nor the NIH knew that gain of function research was being performed.

        1. And if they farmed it out to a Chinese lab for that reason, to evade whatever ethical, legal, or financial considerations were preventing them from performing gain of function research on viruses in the USA, it would be preposterous of Dr. Fauci to claim that neither he nor the NIH knew that gain of function research was being performed.

          Precisely. That’s a better way of getting at what I was trying to say – I can see it being technically true that the part of the NIH grant that went to Wuhan stipulated that it wouldn’t be used to fund gain-of-function research directly, but they can’t have been ignorant of the fact that the studies were being done on viruses that had been produced by gain-of-function experiments.

          The fact that Fauci didn’t hedge in any way his declaration that unequivocally the US has not funded gain-of-function research in Wuhan is, even in the most generous case, very dishonest given the information that is publicly available.

    4. This is in regards to the publicly available and independently verifiable grant application to the NIAID (NIH) for the research in question:

      “Here are extracts from the grants for fiscal years 2018 and 2019. (“CoV” stands for coronavirus and “S protein” refers to the virus’s spike protein.)

      “Test predictions of CoV inter-species transmission. Predictive models of host range (i.e. emergence potential) will be tested experimentally using reverse genetics, pseudovirus and receptor binding assays, and virus infection experiments across a range of cell cultures from different species and humanized mice.”

      “We will use S protein sequence data, infectious clone technology, in vitro and in vivo infection experiments and analysis of receptor binding to test the hypothesis that % divergence thresholds in S protein sequences predict spillover potential.”

      https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

      The researcher collected thousands of bat viruses from caves in southern China, and if she added gain of function capabilities to these viruses when she souped them up for testing purposes, and that doesn’t appear in the grant application, so what?

      What she did with the viruses once they were created was the part that Fauci’s NIAID purposely funded, and what she did was test her souped-up viruses against mice that had been engineered with human cells so that she could create viruses that were suitably capable of infecting humans.

      Anybody else remember the Eric Clapton song, “I Shot the Sheriff”? Maybe you’re more familiar with Bob Marley’s version? In that song, the singer is objecting to being accused of murdering a deputy. His defense is, “I shot the Sheriff, but I didn’t shoot the deputy!” That’s basically what Dr. Fauci is saying.

      Maybe Maybe Maybe Fauci and the NIAID (NIH) didn’t fund the actual engineering of those coronaviruses, but they funded the research that made those coronaviruses transmissible to humans. Fauci and the NIH may have not have shot the deputy, but they shot the sheriff. There’s no question about that!

      1. Pedantic nitpick – “I Shot the Sheriff” is a Bob Marley song made famous by Eric Clapton.

        1. I didn’t know! Thanks for the correction.

          1. Funny. I think of it as the Bob Marley song that Clapton did a weird cover of.

            1. Clapton had a country/western period.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BYyPok2O5k

              A lot of those guys went country in the early 1970s.

              I don’t think of BMW as being about cowboys–except for Buffalo Soldier. And one of the version of that is like a dancehall song.

        2. And if the song is accurate, it was self-defense!

          I always wondered how the heck the deputy even got shot in the first place. He wasn’t even there!

        3. Clapton saved JJ Cale from old age poverty so he’s kinda paid off his debt for stealing Wille Dixon’s whole catalog. Not sure Bob Marley really needed the help. Clapton’s version sucked.

      2. Sheriff Rand Paul always hated me
        For what, I don’t know.
        Every time I fund the virus
        he say keel it before it grow
        he say keel it before it grow.

        1. Dammit, you beat me to it.

        2. that was epic

    5. NIADID knew what they were funding. They also knew what each subcontractor was doing/how much funding they were receiving.

    6. Fauci’s claims need to be thoroughly scrutinized.

      Of course they do. Problem of course is that there are many many employees at the NIH whose job is ‘legislative affairs’ or some other bs with an inherent interest in covering up any real scrutiny by Congress. Far more employees than in whatever congressional subcommittee oversees/audits NIH. This is an inevitable result of the executive branch growing while the legislative remains stagnant for 100 years. The checks and balances become imbalanced so no more checks on anything.

      1. The evidence is publicly available.

        The question isn’t whether they funded this research. That is already established independently from publicly available documents.

        The question is why they financed it, why they financed it in China, and whether they should continue to do so.

        There’s an open question as to whether this is the actual cause of Covid-19, but that’s like the question of whether they killed someone with their drunk driving. The question isn’t whether they were driving drunk. They were. It looks like they did something that maybe should be done–but they did it in a terribly incompetent way at the very, very, very least.

  13. Reading the abstract suggests that the funded research was actually focused on collecting viruses from the wild and developing predictive models to assess the risks of spillover into humans.

    Yes, but if you read the report itself, you’ll find that they were doing this through gain-of-function experiments. They say so very clearly, including this nugget:

    “Pseudotyping experiments were similar to those using an HIV-based pseudovirus, prepared as previously described, and examined on HeLa cells (Wuhan Institute of Virology) that expressed ACE2 orthologs,” ACE2 orthologs being the specific sequences that improve the virus’ ability to infect human cells.

    “As previously described” refers to the preceding paragraphs regarding the various gain-of-function experiments that had already been done mostly in various labs in the US who then sent their engineered coronaviruses to Wuhan.

    So to spell this right out: when Fauci yesterday said that the US has never funded gain-of-function studies in Wuhan, he was straight-up lying.

    Or being as generous as you could possibly be, he’s saying something to the effect that it’s not technically literally true that the US funded gain-of-function research in Wuhan because the gain-of-function research that produced the engineered virus happened in the US and then the engineered virus was sent to Wuhan for further work. Maybe not necessarily technically “lying,” but intensely and deliberately being dishonest no matter how you look at it.

    And this is on top of his obfuscating the fact that gain-of-function research is being conducted in the US and funded by Fauci’s department with his full support even though he strongly implied that none of this is true and that Rand Paul was lying about Fauci’s support for gain-of-function research.

    “No matter how many times you repeat this demonstrably true thing, I will continue to deny it.”

    Here’s the study for anyone who cares to read it.

    1. Excellent. Well said.

    2. Awesome. Best of both worlds. The US and China cooperated to create the pandemic, lol. We can’t get along on anything else, but creating a global pandemic, no problem! We make it, you leak it, we both deny it.

  14. It’s not ‘mounting’ Bailey.

    It’s the same evidence we have had right from the start – it’s just no one is buying the other narratives crafted to protect China anymore.

    1. In fairness, Wade raises the point that the passage of time without finding any animal hosts is the main thing that has rendered the lab escape now the most likely scenario. A year ago it was one possible scenario (one being vociferously denied and dismissed), but it wasn’t unreasonable a year ago to assume that animal-to-human transmission was more likely, since that’s how these things normally work.

      Now, six months ago is a different story.

      1. without finding any animal hosts

        Not just not finding any animal hosts, but not finding any animal hosts with closely-related strains. It’s been in humans a year and has mutated twice.

        1. not finding any animal hosts with closely-related strains

          Indeed, which the WHO has determined does not render animal-to-human transmission unlikely, but does essentially rule out a lab accident, because reasons.

          1. Wow. (What’s the opposite of an exclamation point?)

            Yet another example of not just being wrong in the face of decades of virology and epidemiology but lying to insist that all those scientists, observations, equations, and principles are untrue.

          2. It’s like hearing glass break from the other room and, upon running in, discovering your 4-yr.-old standing over a broken glass of spilled food and saying “It wasn’t me.” Even if it was an accident, unless you’ve got evidence of ghosts, it was you.

            1. It’s more like your 6’7″, 300 lb. jacked brother-in-law saying “yeah, I broke the glass. What are you going to do about it?”

          3. Not only that, but also OTHER reasons – so it’s conclusive. I mean, that alone is enough to prove, um, lots of things . . .

      2. Agree.

        And for most people, the priority was dealing with the disease itself – not history. Now priorities can change.

        And those who were most interested in the possibility of engineered origins were also the ones most adamant that this disease was nothing at all. Just the flu. So it either took time for that crowd to be discredited – or to get their preferred narratives straight so they could encourage an investigation.

        1. “…And those who were most interested in the possibility of engineered origins were also the ones most adamant that this disease was nothing at all…”

          You have a very active fantasy life.

      3. “but it wasn’t unreasonable a year ago to assume that animal-to-human transmission was more likely”

        Not to anyone who’d been following EVERYTHING. On Jan 2, Chinese officials had mapped the entire genetic material of the virus. That’s just 5 days after local health officials were even notified there was a coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan. I’m no geneticist, but that sounds fast for a totally new, never before seen virus. Almost as if they already had it on file or something, and just needed to run comparisons.

        Then they’d wait until Jan 9 to announce publicly that they’d mapped the genome, and Jan 11 to make it available to researchers outside of China. That smells to me like China waited until it was reasonable to have a successfully mapped a novel genome before announcing they’d done it. It would also give them a week to shred any relevant files.

        Jan 2, they ordered all labs in Hubei, and a day later the rest of China, to stop testing for the virus and to destroy all their samples. (source, Axios)

        The first week or two smells like a mop job by local and provincial officials. They didn’t even get Xi out of bed until the 7th to tell him there was a problem, and they kept (falsely) insisting there were no new cases through the 17th. Keeping in mind, at this point they were still promulgating the fiction that it wasn’t transmitting between humans (something they should have at least suspected was false in late December, given the original cluster of cases).

        It wasn’t until the 19th that Beijing even sent epidemiologists to Wuhan. After that, the response was 100% Xi. Lock down Wuhan, ban travel from Hubei to the rest of China, allow international flights to continue, and then organize a stealth purchasing campaign to clean us out of all our medical supplies.

        I can forgive the local and provincial bureaucrats for screwing the pooch, and even covering up the problem. Who wants to be the bearer of bad news to dear leader? That shit gets you disappeared.

        What I can’t forgive is what China did after they realized there was no containing the outbreak, and that the measures they’d have to take to minimize the carnage would cripple their economy. They were like, “well, we’re not going to be the only ones,” and set about making that happen.

        1. Yeah, but after this thing spread they at least had a competent government so that, what, 60 million people didn’t get this thing like under Dear Leader. The Chinese government may be unscrupulous, but they aren’t incompetent and unscrupulous like Trump.

          Oh well… Trump got beaten by an octogenarian Alzheimer’s patient so at least there’s a rump of American public opinion that thinks that you have to offer more than worse than an Alzheimer’s patient to get elected. I guess that gives me some hope.

          1. Yeah, but after this thing spread they at least had a competent government so that, what, 60 million people didn’t get this thing like under Dear Leader.

            You know because they said so.

          2. Anyone who believes China’s official numbers is a certified retard.

            They’re still reporting only 90,799 total CASES in the country. Their total reported deaths? Less than 5000. Less than 5000 deaths in the country where a completely novel virus that did not respond to known treatments originated.

            Radio Free Asia reported that the crematoria in Wuhan were operating around the clock in early 2020, suggesting 25,000 excess cremations in the city in the weeks leading up to April’s Tomb Sweeping Day. Supporting evidence was the tens of thousands more urns than usual delivered to Wuhan’s funeral homes in advance of the holiday.

            Looks to me like the Chinese government is only really competent at lying, and screwing over the rest of the world. Anyway, if you think they’re so competent, you’re welcome to emigrate there.

            1. Traders don’t believe China’s GDP numbers, even Chinese government officials don’t believe the data they get from the provinces. They look at independently verifiable statistics like electricity consumption, taxes paid on exports when they go through customs, etc.

              If the locals would lie about GDP numbers for various reasons, why wouldn’t they lie about pandemic statistics?

              P.S. We shouldn’t believe the pandemic statistics coming out of New York if they make Cuomo or de Blasio look bad either.

          3. Seriously? You trust the bullshit Chinese numbers? Cremation data indicates over 30,000 died from Covid by last March in Wuhan alone. For all we know, they might have lost several million to Covid. But they probably stopped counting and probably don’t even know how many have died from Covid there.

          4. They are lying. I don’t see how anyone could believe their numbers for a minute.

    2. If Bailer were honest he would have to admit this article is mostly just him taking note of everything he chose to ignore last year.

      But, we all know Bailey is not honest.

      1. I think this article was a good faith effort, and a good article. Who else is covering this topic better? The other outlets I see that are covering this are mostly overselling the case against Fauci. In this article, Bailey is going where a lot of the media won’t go.

        1. Too little too late.

  15. There was also this long article back in January that connected the dots and seemed convincing to me. And it’s from New York Magazine, so not some “coNspIRacY site”

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-escape-theory.html

    1. I ran across that in late Jan…almost nobody talks about that article. Though the NYMag article and the Wade piece have substantial overlap.

    2. Given the timing of the “escape,” a student of history would surmise it had a little help getting loose. Funny how it happened right when the DNC was praying for a catastrophe to keep Trump from being re-elected.

  16. I don’t think the question is whether or not the virus was leaked from a lab, the question is whether or not it was deliberately leaked from the lab. While I don’t think it was, there’s a case for criminal negligence in funding research that was thought to be too dangerous to be conducted in a US lab in China, where “standards” has no known direct translation into Mandarin.

    1. While I don’t think it was, there’s a case for criminal negligence in funding research that was thought to be too dangerous to be conducted in a US lab in China

      Agreed. Based on the evidence presented in Wade’s article it’s very plausibly the outcome of simple carelessness at the lab.

      1. I think accident is what happened. However, I think that China took this as a target of opportunity using the incident to the best possible effect relative to Chinese interests.

        1. I think that China took this as a target of opportunity using the incident to the best possible effect relative to Chinese interests.

          Would not be surprising.

        2. I wouldn’t expect them to do otherwise. The Chinese regime is VERY focused on advancing its interests first and foremost, irrespective of what any national or international critics might say.

          That “China First” attitude is precisely why they’re in a good position to move up to superpower status in the near future, if they aren’t there already.

    2. Yeah, a shit factory blew up, and rather than following the stink while it was still fresh people like Bailey gave them all time to air themselves out in private.

    3. “I don’t think the question is whether or not the virus was leaked from a lab, the question is whether or not it was deliberately leaked from the lab”

      I don’t even think Xi is ruthless enough to intentionally release a pandemic level deadly virus into his own population first, just to throw off suspicion.

      Here’s how you do biowarfare. You engineer a pathogen that’s WAY more deadly than this one turned out to be. Think of a super-transmissible SARS (case fatality rate 14-15%). Then you spend a year or two developing highly targeted mRNA vaccines for it, and then inoculate most of your population. Not all, mind you. Just most. Include the majority of your political enemies among those whose annual flu shots don’t secretly include the SARS vaccine.

      Then you send a bunch of young, pretty female Chinese operatives on trips around the world, with little bottles of hair spray they will use to spritz their hair in airport bathrooms during every layover. Maybe some freshening facial mist, too. “Oh that smells lovely and refreshing!” “It is, would you like to try a spritz?”

      Anyone who wants to write a novel based on this premise in the style of James Patterson, I thank you in advance for being mentioned in the acknowledgements.

      1. The motives are a distraction.

        The NIH shouldn’t fund extremely dangerous research in a lab with a terrible safety record that takes superviruses and makes them transmissible to humans–regardless of whether their motives were purely academic and good.

        I can see the legitimate reason to do this research. I do not see a legitimate reason to do this research in lab with a terrible safety record in China.

        1. regardless of whether their motives were purely academic and good

          Exactly. In fact, if their motives were purely academic and “good,” people like Fauci are all that more likely to indulge in “Noble Lies” in order make sure that the research isn’t threatened. If it were chemical weapons research, the medical-research community would be much more likely to be up in arms about it rather than frantically trying to distract attention from it.

          1. And I think their intentions probably were good. They funded this research to save lives. The road to hell is paved with good intentions–and the people who paved it should be held accountable for their foolishness.

        2. Intent matters. Not when it comes to assessing the harm done, but when it comes to assigning culpability.

          Though I fully agree that Fauci had no business funding that research. I believe in the exchange with Rand Paul, he testified it would have been “irresponsible” to NOT conduct the research in question. Which seems to me like a way of saying, “if 560,000 Americans had to die to possibly save millions 30 years from now, then it was worth it. Right? Right? I mean, amirite? I’m right, right?”

          Honestly, I think he’s a small man who was disappointed that the 2003 SARS epidemic fizzled out on its own, before mRNA vaccines could be developed and deployed (pretty sure they were working on them, and then the need vanished). At that point, mRNA applications had only been studied for about 20 years, and had never been FDA approved. They’d just started developing mRNA applications in the vaccine context.

          Alas, SARS-CoV-1 probably did what most viruses do. It mutated into a variant that was as or more contagious, but much less deadly. That strain probably blasted through the population, gave them the sniffles, and did Fauci’s vaccinating for him. Bada bing bada boom bada no more SARS.

          Anyway, he was poised to be a superstar and then SARS-CoV-1 dropped off the map. Maybe his intentions in funding the research were noble. Maybe it is important to study the way viruses might mutate in order to be “pandemic prepared”.

          But the way he brushed off Dr Redfield’s assertion that the lab leak hypothesis was in his mind the most likely reveals that he’s heavily compromised. If he was being honest, he’d have acknowledged it as the most plausible hypothesis. He wouldn’t have (more than a year into this bullshit) grimaced while saying, “meh, it’s a possibility, and he’s entitled to his opinion” and then said, “here, let me detail some other explanations that are way less plausible.”

          The silver lining? If the mRNA vaccines prove effective AND safe in the long run? We’d be looking at highly targeted and effective vaccines able to roll out within 6 to 8 months of the emergence of a new pathogen. That might deflate arguments in favor of the necessity of GOF research. If we’re always only 6 months away from herd immunity, why would we be conducting dangerous research in an effort to predict the next pandemic?

          Meh. Now I’m just engaging in stream of consciousness bullshit.

          1. “Intent matters. Not when it comes to assessing the harm done, but when it comes to assigning culpability.”

            I think the blame for funding this research belongs to Fauci, the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases he heads, and the National Institute of Health–regardless of motive and regardless of whether the research they funded is actually the cause of Covid-19.

            I had a friend who drunkenly bet thousands of dollars on a single hand of blackjack. The dealer was showing a “6”. My friend had an “18”. He hit it, drew a “3” and won. What he did was stupid regardless of whether he won. Hitting an “18” in that situation is a stupid thing to do–regardless of whether you win. It wouldn’t have been any dumber if he’d lost the hand, and it wasn’t any smarter because he won.

            Funding that research in a lab with a history of safety issues was a stupid thing to do. It was stupid if it created the Covid-19 pandemic, and it was stupid if it didn’t. It was stupid if they funded this research in a lab with a bad safety history, knowing exactly what the experiment entailed, and it was stupid if they had no clue that it entailed actually creating the novel viruses that were being rendered transmissible to humans.

            No matter what their intentions were, or whether this really was or wasn’t the origin of Covid-19, the conclusion is that funding this experiment was stupid and wrong, and both the NIH and Fauci should be required to answer for why they funded this research at a lab with safety problems in China.

            [Fauci] testified it would have been “irresponsible” to NOT conduct the research in question. Which seems to me like a way of saying, “if 560,000 Americans had to die to possibly save millions 30 years from now, then it was worth it. Right?”

            There is a legitimate case to make that this research is valuable and should be allowed to proceed–if it’s done in a responsible way in safe conditions and in a country where American law means the people conducting this research can be held accountable if their work kills millions of people and destroys the economy.

            I don’t believe that Fauci was saying that it was worth it to kill 3 million people and destroy the world economy. I think he was saying that this research should be done–in a safe way so that we learn about how these viruses behave when they attack human cells.

            I think Fauci was saying that it wasn’t funding the research that caused the problem–or even this research that necessarily created Covid-19. He’s saying that the data from such research can be an important way to save lives–and that it can be done safely. I won’t argue with that per se.

            I’m countering that it was necessarily foolish and incompetent to fund this research in that safety challenged lab in China, where no one is held accountable for anything unless the CCP says so. For goodness’sake, the researcher who built the viruses and made them transmissible to humans wrote about the ethical q

            1. I posted that by accident. It wasn’t ready!

              . . . but you can see where I was going.

              Fauci and the NIH seem to have rushed in where angels fear to tread, and that was foolish–at the very least. In my professional life, people are held responsible for foolish behavior. Their job was to protect out health from threats like this. They were creating threats in an unsafe lab.

              If I hired them to lease out a high rise, and their foolish behavior burned it down instead, they wouldn’t get a contract to lease up any more high rises. Regardless of whether they burned it down on purpose, they should be held accountable for their foolish choices.

      2. Swallwell was fucking a female Chinese sly behind his wife’s back.

        He’s still on the intelligence committee.

    4. A student of history would note that those seeking power frequently have no qualms whatsoever about “collateral damage.” Given the timing of the release, I personally believe that the intentional release is more likely.

  17. Actually, according to some non-peer-reviewed research, some bat species are susceptible to COVID-19 infections. Among these are the common bent-wing bats (Miniopterus schreibersii) that are also found in the Yunnan caves from which the Wuhan virus researchers collected coronavirus samples.

    This does still need to be entertained as a possibility – i.e. that the researchers themselves caught it direct from the bats when they were collecting virus samples and then spread it from the clinic.

    As Ron points out, though, you would think that if this were the case, the CCP would already have come out with that information, while the silence on whether this virus has actually been found in any bats has been rather deafening.

    1. Yep, It’s not like the Chinese have no experience dealing with animal reservoirs for viral human diseases.

  18. “But if the Chinese government has nothing to hide, why has it stymied investigations into the origin of the virus from the very beginning of the pandemic?”

    “If the Chinese government has nothing to hide concerning the origins of the COVID-19 virus, then it should welcome such an inquiry.”

    Since the Chinese government is the one on the docks, it is invoking its right to remain silent, and is taking the 5th – which, I suspect, would be the standard Libertarian recommendation.

    Is Ronald Bailey a libertarian, statist, or plain naive?

    1. Since the Chinese government is the one on the docks, it is invoking its right to remain silent, and is taking the 5th – which, I suspect, would be the standard Libertarian recommendation.

      The Bill of Rights does not exist to protect the rights of government.

      1. ^ Governments don’t have rights, people do.

      2. Especially foreign governments that overtly oppose such rights and standards. I don’t entirely see a libertarian reason to extend such rights even to people who overtly disavow them. Such action can easily/readily be categorized as an act of aggression.

  19. You know damn well papers were shredded and hard drives re-formatted at WIV over a year ago.

    1. The people who should be really pissed off about this are the Chinese.

      If the Untied States was funding the creation of super viruses and rendering them to be transmissible to humans, and they were funding this in a Chinese lab–without China’s knowledge and permission, as they’ll claim–and that was the cause of Covid-19?!

      What do you think the reaction would be from the American public if it turned out that the Chinese government funded this research in the United States, and it was the cause of a global epidemic that killed 3 million people and destroyed the world economy?

      We’d be calling for war. The sinking of the Maine, Lusitania, and the Gulf of Tonkin incident all rolled together would be nothing compared to that.

      And we send a crack team of WHO experts to China to investigate the cause of pandemic, and one of the guys in charge of the team of scientists is the same guy who is responsible for funding the research?

      In light of theses revelations, I don’t blame them for not cooperating with the WHO investigation. Talk about the fox guarding the chicken coop!

      1. What do you think the reaction would be from the American public if it turned out that the Chinese government funded this research in the United States, and it was the cause of a global epidemic that killed 3 million people and destroyed the world economy?

        We’d be calling for war.

        No chance in hell. Americans love their cheap Chinese consooooooooooomer shit too much to want to slap China down for any legitimate reason, even in a scenario like that. Americans only understand naked violence, not subtle grey zone shit like releasing a bioweapon.

        1. Americans also like not being at war with an adversary that could pose an actual threat to the country and would be very difficult to defeat. I’d say that’s also a pretty rational reason to want to avoid it even with some provocation like that. I’m sure what you describe comes into play as well.

          1. define “defeat”

            at any rate no one wants to go to war with a nuclear power over an accident for the very obvious reason that no one wants to get nuked

    2. How can that be, they had the IRS’s best It people on it

  20. At this point, I’m really more concerned about what’s happened to free speech. 6-12 months ago, people who wanted to speculate and discuss the possibility of COVID being an engineered virus were being banned and censored on social media. Because then it was “fake news.”

    Now, basically no new facts have emerged except the continued lack of a definitive host. Suddenly it’s okay to actually talk about this possibility. There’s a malevolent force working to control discourse in order to keep everyone thinking “rightthink.” It’s only scary because it’s somehow successful.

    1. Yeah – untied to any particular issue, there’s this increasing culture of it not being okay to express anything other than the Right Thing, and we all have to always-already know what the Right Thing is, because if you don’t, you’ve shown that you’re one of the Bad People.

      This is not a healthy environment for having to discuss complex issues.

      1. Almost like somebody doesn’t want complex issues being discussed. Our Masters will tell us what the rightthink is.

        1. nah they just want Democrats to win the election first

          then you’re allowed to talk all you like

    2. I remember when the idea that the NSA was sifting through our emails and tracking our phone calls was a crazy conspiracy theory.

      Six months after we invaded Iraq, 69% of the American people, a majority of Democrats, Republicans, and Independents, still believed that Saddam Hussein was personally complicit in 9/11.

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/sep/07/usa.theobserver

      Every theory is a theory until the evidence comes out to support it, and the fundamental problem of having to revise our theories as new evidence becomes available applies to science as well as conspiracies. No one should be prevented from discussing string theory before all the evidence becomes available either. Proposing theories is how we make sense of the world when we’re in a state of incomplete evidence, and in the present tense, we’re almost always in a state of incomplete evidence.

      Let the cranks talk!

      1. “Sixty-nine per cent of Americans said they thought it at least likely that Saddam was involved in the attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon”

        meh “at least likely” is a pretty fair assessment for a sworn enemy who funded AQ affiliate Abu Sayyaf and gave WTC bombers passports

        what’s truly amazing is that in 1991 >90% of Americans thought the Gulf War would be over forever by summer

        1. just imagine being the guy in the room in 1991 saying

          “sure the Kuwaiti royals are cute and all, but what if the conflict metastasizes into sectarian conflict and US troops are still fighting in the Mideast thirty years later?”

    3. “At this point, I’m really more concerned about what’s happened to free speech…”

      No to mention a pile of un-innumerated rights; try going to a ball park and buying a beer.

    4. There is a malevolent force at work, and it is “fear of lawsuits”.

  21. Agree….more or less. I don’t know exactly what happened at WIV, and the world may never know, but I feel reasonably confident that they were complicit in some way. More than likely there is (or was) a smoking gun. It’ll be interesting to see what turns up as the covid tsunami recedes.

    1. Oops response to Ken above

  22. It’s the most likely explanation, and this “evidence” has pretty mch been around for a year. Just was majorly suppressed and is getting attention now.

    1. Occam, bat soup spill in aisle 4, Occam aisle 4.

  23. My estimate of probability is still a coinflip between natural origin and result of gain of function research.

    The only way to truly discriminate between those two would be a careful forensic analysis of the Wuhan lab’s records. That obviously is never going to happen. I’m not quite willing to put that into the category of ‘evidence it was lab created’ – i think the uncertainty over what could be found would be enough to make the CCP unwilling to allow the investigation in the first place. Willful ignorance might be their most rational move, given their unwillingness to see the Chinese government get blamed for it.

    1. Yeah – one can think of all kinds of reasons why the CCP wouldn’t want outside eyes prying into WIV unrelated to the possibility of accidental release. Most of them aren’t good ones, but they don’t necessarily implicate the lab in the pandemic.

      There’s also the fact that Bat Lady herself publicly admitted that it might have come from her, claiming to have gone through her records to confirm that it hadn’t. It’s possible she’s lying, but it’s also possible that she’s not.

      Still, the fact that there’s no evidence to support natural origin for me makes it stronger than a coin toss that it came from the lab even if Bat Lady sincerely doesn’t think it did. The people involved don’t need any more sinister motivation than not wanting to admit to themselves that they may have made a mistake that killed three million people.

    2. “That obviously is never going to happen. ”

      It will almost certainly happen. Less likely to happen is those who conduct the analysis sharing their findings with you or anyone else in the west. Whatever they do choose to share should be viewed with extreme skepticism.

  24. OK, so why is it suddenly OK for the Virus Leak story to gain traction? Sure it may be because the election is over and Biden won, and they were worried that China doing dangerous things and killing Americans in the process would help Trump win, but I think there is a bit more to the timing than just that.

    The Economy is tanking, Jobs reports horrible, Inflation skyrocketing, Gas prices up, actual fuel shortages, egregious border human rights issues. Basically all of Biden’s Domestic Policies are a dumpster fire. Then you have the Middle East resuming it’s conflicts after years of peace and progress, also due to Biden’s policies.

    So what does a President do to distract from their policies being garbage? Well, they focus on creating fear of a common enemy. COVID played a super convenient role in having a universal thing to be afraid of, to occupy the headlines.

    But COVID fear is dying down, we have pretty much beaten it, and the Dems are losing the messaging battle on maintaining fear about it, with popular left wing pundits questioning the extension of lockdowns for the vaccinated.

    So it is time for a new enemy. I believe the Biden Administration is ACTIVELY trying to renew the cold war. He is illogically provoking the Russians with announcing cyberattacks, and they are retaliating and causing chaos. He is funding Palestine and they are buying Rockets to lob at civilians. Now would be a perfectly convenient time to start “looking into China” for culpability now that the US is well on its way of beating the infection.

    I give it two years before every movie is about an impending cold war Armageddon (or a metaphor for one) like in the 80s. Anythign to keep people afraid so they fail to notice it is the Policies that are screwing up the country and not the “bad guys”.

    Dems have never been above starting a war as a distraction from domestic issues.

    1. These things don’t happen spontaneously. Politics is much more Machiavellian than most people are willing to believe. The media always does what the establishment needs them to do even when they fancy themselves the loyal opposition. Your theory is more than plausible. And it doesn’t have to be a conspiracy. Somebody needs to take the fall. Only question is who? It won’t be Fauci.

  25. Absent the efforts of some courageous Chinese whistle-blower,”

    Didn’t a chinese female researcher come out along time ago but was silenced and doxed by the media for appearing on FOX with TC and now she is in hiding.

    1. Yes

  26. No mention of the Wuhan World Military Games that just happened to occur in the last two weeks of October, 2019. Just a coincidence, no doubt. Not only that, but several participants of the games reported illnesses while in Wuhan or shortly after returning home. Apparently, both the Chinese and US governments have been asked about this and neither would comment. Yet another coincidence? If the US government had just a modicum of credibility, it would be easy to pin this on the Chinese, but alas.

  27. How big a leap from “gain of function” studies to bio-weapons research?

    1. Well, it would certainly appear to be a potentially useful technique for developing weaponized viruses.

    2. they’re the same thing

      1. ^ This.

    3. The leap from self defence homicide to first degree murder.

    4. One small step for a germ, one giant leap for germ warfare.

  28. Why concentrate of accidental when it may have been done on purpose.

    1. Because an accidental release scenario explains the facts better than an intentional release scenario, the main stickers being that 1) if it had been engineered as a bio-weapon, it would have been engineered differently, and 2) if you were engineering a bio-weapon, why would you deploy that bio-weapon on a small scale immediately outside of the lab where you developed it?

      Meanwhile, given what we know of the safety standards of the lab and that the scientists at the lab seem to have infected themselves with minor coronaviruses in the past, at least according to Wade’s research, an accidental release scenario is perfectly consistent with all of it.

      1. “why would you deploy that bio-weapon on a small scale immediately outside of the lab where you developed it?”

        Plausible deniability.

        1. That’s a stretch.

          If they wanted to intentionally release it and maintain plausible deniability, they’d have released it in a village near the bat caves in Yunnan, 1000 miles from the lab. You know, where the bats live that carry a strain of CoV that shares 96% of its genome with SARS-CoV-2.

          1. If they wanted to intentionally release it and maintain plausible deniability, they’d have released it in a village near the bat caves in Yunnan, 1000 miles from the lab.

            ^ This.

            And perhaps I should amend the question to

            “why would you deploy that bio-weapon on a small scale immediately outside of the lab where you developed it, and nowhere else?

            1. As I said above. If you wanted to deploy it as a weapon, you’d develop a vaccine first and inoculate the majority of your population before you did.

              Then you’d send immunized operatives on trips around the world with long layovers at airports where they’d use virus laden hair spray and face freshening mists to contaminate airport bathrooms, and slather virus laden moisturizer (or hand “sanitizer”, hah) all over their hands before using the touch screens at CBP kiosks. You’d maybe even give them a supply of “insulin” or “epinephrine” they could use to refill their little hair spray bottles, or rub all over the door handles and elevator buttons at their hotels.

              You’d have dozens of patients zero popping up simultaneously in countries around the world, and no one would even be able to put it together.

              If you were really smart, the people you recruited to do this would live near the bat caves in Yunnan. Just in case you had to explain that they were asymptomatic carriers. See? They even have the antibodies. We should really do something about those bats, tho.

              1. “As I said above. If you wanted to deploy it as a weapon, you’d develop a vaccine first and inoculate the majority of your population before you did.”

                How about we assume stupidity as opposed to cupidity? Far more likely circumstance.

    2. I think that intentional release is unlikely. ChiComs may be sloppy (mostly because they are communists), but they aren’t stupid. They had the entire world in which to release the virus, and they picked Wuhan, home of the Wuhan Institute of Virology? A million places around the world would have been enter for them.

  29. My tinfoil could be a bit tight, but late 2019 was when China was looking for creative ways tamp down Hong Kong protests without it looking like a humanitarian crisis. Serendipitously a viral outbreak gave China all the reason it needed to shut down travel within the nation and go to full lockdown.

    The HK protests are now a distant memory and most of those instigators are locked up.

    1. +1,000,000

      I said the same thing in January 2020. Not here, but to people.

    2. even CCP isn’t stupid enough to infect Wuhan on purpose

      Taiwan otoh

  30. wow now that Bad Orange Man is out of power media are suddenly able to discuss all sorts of things

    truth is this sort of thing is terrifying routine

    even libertarians should support a ban on gain-of-function research with serious teeth

    one research project — one! — just killed millions of people and cost around 100% of annual GDP

    and it had a fatality rate of less than 1%

    this is so much worse than nukes

    1. Just. Ore proof that the democrats have to go away, forever.

  31. “…Yesterday at a Senate hearing, Anthony Fauci, member of the White House Coronavirus Task Force, strongly denied that the NIH had ever funded gain-of-function research at the Wuhan laboratory…”

    I’m sure that Fauci will be shocked to discover the fungibility of money.

  32. Oh, God – this ongoing, nauseous, delicate prancing about the source is like a group of stoned longhairs standing around in a circle looking at a rock, debating about whether or not it’s a rock. China unleashed a biological agent against the West. The ONLY thing we need to know – the ONLY thing – is that they curtailed travel within China and at the very same time, invited and encouraged travel to and from China and the West. Case closed. Watching this “debate” among the terminally indecisive is agonizing.

    1. debating about whether or not it’s a rock

      It isn’t.

  33. Ronald Bailey is awful slow to catch on. The circumstantial evidence was very strong more than a year ago, that the virus originated in the Wuhan lab. NIAID and Dr. Fauci had their fingerprints all over the dangerous experimentation with the coronavirus at that time, experimentation in the U.S. and in Wuhan, and still do. That may be why Dr. Fauci was so quick to say the lab could not be the source.

  34. Anthony Fauci, mild mannered highest paid bureaucrat by day, Superhero Bat Guano at night.

    1. “highest paid bureaucrat” — do you have any proof or reference?

      1. Google is not your friend but here you gohttps://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2021/01/25/dr-anthony-fauci-the-highest-paid-employee-in-the-entire-us-federal-government/?sh=7aa35c9386f0

        1. I do not think this is true per se. I’m pretty sure the highest paid employees of the federal government are the head football coaches at the military academies. You can’t get a decent div1 football coach for < $1 mil.

          1. Just double-checked. The Forbes list is confined to employees of executive agencies. The military academies are excluded.

  35. Don’t atomic scientists study atoms and energy fields, not virus or epidemiology? Not clear to me why they are being invoked as expert opinion. Perhaps they could comment on Lyme disease also being started in a U.S. experimental bio weapons lab off Plum IOsland?

    1. Not clear to me why they are being invoked as expert opinion.

      They’re not. The article presents the facts and invites you to draw your own conclusions. I highly recommend reading it.

    2. Let me educate you. The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists is the Physics community’s social and political issues arm. A community that gave dimwitted politicians the power to incinerate continents cannot stand idly by and let them do so !

  36. If China continues to block access to data that could possibly incriminate them, it is sufficient proof not just of a leaked weapon, but of starting a world war. In fact, even worse, since the world wars did not affect the whold planet like Covid-19 has.

    China is too powerful a country to be allowed to go rogue. If they insist on hiding the truth, the rest of the world must take action. A complete ban on trade with China would be a good start.

    1. “If China continues to block access to data that could possibly incriminate them, it is sufficient proof not just of a leaked weapon, but of starting a world war.”

      I’m not sure about that. Libertarians used to have a saying which went something like this: ‘There’s no such thing as a free lunch,’ meaning in this case, that if the west wants access to closely held Chinese data, it will have to offer something equally sought after by the Chinese, to seal the deal. World wars are where the drama is, but this is business.

      1. trueman shows up to make an ass of himself in public, again.
        Fuck off and die, you pathetic piece of lefty shit.

  37. “But if the Chinese government has nothing to hide, why has it stymied investigations into the origin of the virus from the very beginning of the pandemic?”

    “If the Chinese government has nothing to hide concerning the origins of the COVID-19 virus, then it should welcome such an inquiry. ”

    The premise is ridiculous. Secrecy and unwillingness to share information is the hallmark of Chinese bureaucracy, One’s place in the pecking order is determined by how many secrets one keeps. The idea of China welcoming foreign experts running rampant in Wuhan when the Chinese themselves may not understand what went on, is not reasonable.

    As far as the leak from the lab? Sure, maybe simple human error or something more evil, or a mixture. Maybe something else. Whatever it is expect stonewalling and delays on the part of China. Face saving is something they take seriously.

    1. Yes, this.

  38. What is not questionable is the fact that the Communist Chinese let thousands of people fly to destinations outside the country while they were locked down internally.
    That is a deliberate act of germ warfare.

    1. You are assuming that the people who are responsibility and ability to order and enforce internal lockdowns are the same people responsible for the ability to shut down international air traffic. They are almost certainly not the same people, not working in the same branch of the bureaucracy. They may even be working at loggerheads for reasons entirely unrelated to the virus. I figure rather than a deliberate act of war on the entire world, it was a breech in safety and hygiene at the lab that led to accidental release. If it were a deliberate act, the crafty Chinese behind it would take steps to cover their tracks and put some distance between the institute and the site where the original outbreak occurs. In other words, not the same city,

      1. trueman shows up to make an ass of himself in public, again.
        Fuck off and die, you pathetic piece of lefty shit.

        1. I don’t think it was a deliberate act of germ warfare.

  39. First the fact the virus jumped from a wet market in the same city as the lab doing research on the virus was almost laughable. Yes very low probability events occur but they are never the first explanation. Second Fauci is a tool. I met the guy when I was an undergrad majoring in Chemistry/Biochem, he showed up to talk about the AIDS virus and stayed after the talk to take some questions. It was pretty obvious to me he wasn’t spending a whole lot of time in the lab but was more of a “marketing” guy for NIH funding.

    Old Rand took him apart…he might go down as a mass murderer..but I’m sure will be viewed as a hero by the left just like Troytsky..same folks

    1. “but I’m sure will be viewed as a hero by the left just like Troytsky..same folks”

      For a long time leftists viewing Trotsky as anything but a traitor led to a bullet in the back of the head. Anarchists hate him even more for that Kronstadt business. The only Trotskyites to make a difference were the original neo cons, the ideological grandparents of Liz Cheney.

      1. You would know. Inside baseball and all that.

        1. I do know. Next time go with Ernesto ‘Che’ Guevara.

  40. There must be some way of determining how far out-of-family the SARS-COV-2 virus is, compared to the family of natural viruses (of this kind). If it’s out on a limb, so to speak, then it’s artificial. MIT researchers have a good tool to look into it, called natural language processing, and I’m sure they are working on this. We will know the answer for sure in a few months.

  41. This is way above my pay grade.

  42. Motive = ?

  43. Jeebus, Bailey. Your cocktail party invites are cancelled, forever.

    It’s entirely plausible of course, but it’s not going to get you a job at NYT.

  44. I am an emergency physician with some experience in medical research (not related to virology though).

    An accidental lab leak is the most likely scenario. I came to this conclusion in April 2020 after realizing China had engaged in a massive coverup including total bullshit numbers of Covid cases and deaths. And the evidence has been mounting ever since. The world needs to assume the Chinese government is responsible and hold them accountable. This is on the scale of the fucking holocaust.

    1. yes it is. thank you.

  45. I was skeptical of the “lab” theory from the outset, but amidst all the information and disinformation, one giant factor speaks in its favor. Right from the outset, the Chinese government took incredibly drastic measures to contain the outbreak.

    This tells me that top CCP officials believed that Covid was a really big deal, right from the outset. That’s not what you’d expect to see if the virus had a purely natural origin. However, it’s exactly what you’d expect to see if a weaponized virus accidentally got released from a lab.

    If the lab theory is true, I’m confident that the release was accidental. A deliberate release would have started in Hong Kong, not Wuhan, and would probably have featured a much more lethal strain.

  46. Brett Weinstein interviewed Yuri Deigin in early June last year – it was a dense two hours, Deigin’s 72-page essay even more so. Wade’s to be commended for making SARS2’s molecular biology accessible to the common man.

    I found one of the most compelling pieces of evidence for the CoV2 lab leak theory in Wade’s referenced research detailing the evolution of SARS-CoV1. The CoV1 epidemic was divided into 3 phases, the early phase began 11/16/2002, the middle phase 01/31/2003 and the late phase on 02/21/2003. By May of 2003, or 6 months into CoV1, scientists had found CoV1 in civets and the research documenting the entire evolutionary history of CoV1 mutations from horseshoe bats to civets to humans published Nov 2005. That we are 17 months into CoV2 and the intermediately host between bats and humans remains unfounded certainly lends weight to the lab leak theory.

    Then of course there is the CoV2 furin cleavage site. While furin cleavage sites are found in a great many coronaviruses none are anywhere in close genetic proximity to the SARS family.

    It is likely we will have to accept, without a whistleblower presenting hard evidence, never knowing conclusively how CoV2 made the jump to humans. Nevertheless it is difficult to read Yurgin’s quote from the NIH grant to WIH and not conclude Fauci was artfully obfuscating with his declaration the US was not specifically funding GoF research in Wuhan. Congress needs to continue to pressure Fauci for answers about NIIH’s funding of GoF and clearly the risks and ethical dilemmas of genetic engineering need to be revisited in the light of CoV2.

    1. Republicans need to take at least one house of Congress in 2022 for that to happen. Dems are starting to circle the wagons around Fauci.

    2. I’m not sure it matters where the funding was from. They were certainly working on many projects with funding from multiple grants. If this particular virus was created there and escaped we will never know for sure.

      If the lab leak hypothesis is true then all we really know is that a level 4 lab was working with a dangerous pathogen and it got out somehow through human error. That is a possibility for any such facility. It has happened elsewhere.

      Or it evolved naturally and the animal has not been identified. Just because it has been for similar diseases doesn’t mean it will be this time. We know animals can carry it. Even cats and dogs.

      It really is not all that important either way.

      1. Bravo: agreed all around.

  47. Yes Absolutely. Many newspapers Cover it and say that Corona Virus Is a Bio-Weapon of china for the 3rd World war China not accept it but its reality

    1. Cause there’s nothing that says “we’re going to win the world war” like killing your own citizens…

  48. When considering the possibility of intentional release, a detective would seek means, motive, and opportunity. Senator Paul laid out a very telling set of facts the other day – that the personnel associated with the lab had published papers on how a virus could be given enhanced virulence without direct DNA tampering which could give clues to tampering. Clearly, the means existed among the people at the place the virus originated. For motive, we have literally hundreds of articles and video clips in which Democrats were literally praying for some kind of disaster to happen to prevent President Trump from being re-elected. Such public animosity towards a President of the United States has rarely, if ever, been seen before, and might clearly have been sufficient motive for the more radical among them to consider drastic measures. As for opportunity – that is the simplest of all. All told, there was many billions of dollars worth of political money changing hands in the 2020 election. What would it take to bribe or blackmail one poor Chinese lab worker?

    1. This theory makes zero sense, like all stupid conspiracy theories… Why in your theory is it an American that is the cause of this, given that this was an international pandemic and there were plenty of other elections going on in hundreds of other countries? This view that everything in the international world happens because of ‘murica is incredibly navel-gazing. If someone in America wanted to create a conspiracy, they’d do it *in America*.

    2. “This is a tremendous opportunity to restructure things to fit our vision,” was the response by the left instead of proclaiming it a crisis. The question is was it an intentionally created opportunity. It certainly did benefit Democrats and they are still enjoying the benefits from it.

  49. People will be debating the origins of this virus 20 years from now.

  50. “If you’ve got nothing to hide…” Libertarians hate this Statist argument when it comes to violations of privacy; it’s lame to then use it against someone else. There are many reasons the Chinese government may not want to completely open their books other than “we are guilty!”, and that’s their right.

    1. That’s because individuals have civil rights which should be protected. Governments shouldn’t have those same rights.

  51. Pretty sure it is.

  52. Wade said that, “the outbreak began in Wuhan and nowhere else.” This strikes me as willful ignorance. I remember in the early days many cases were being discovered in the US with absolutely no connection to China. And the suspicion that many earlier cases were being mis diagnosed, especially in the US because of the similarity to flu symptoms. And I’ve seen reports in Quora of people in hindsite their symptoms better matched COVID-19 than flu. The suspicion was that it was detected first in China because they had a much better system for detecting new pandemics than the US and the rest of the world.
    And the US Army has steadfastly refused to release the symptoms of the two soldiers that had to be evacuated from Wuhan just before the discovery.
    And the way the US media grossly misinterprets any news out of China, why would China want to feed that at all. Both right and left wing.
    And I was surprised anybody trusted anything out of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientist. The last I heard, along time ago, they had lost pretty much all their scientists and were considered about as reliable as National Inquirer.

    1. Do you mean such as the first confirmed case in the USA? On January 19, 2020, a 35-year-old man presented to an urgent care clinic in Snohomish County, Washington, with a 4-day history of cough and subjective fever. On checking into the clinic, the patient put on a mask in the waiting room. After waiting approximately 20 minutes, he was taken into an examination room and underwent evaluation by a provider. He disclosed that he had returned to Washington State on January 15 after traveling to visit family in Wuhan, China. As of January 30, 2020, a total of 9976 cases had been reported in at least 21 countries. The one thing in common with the infected was travel from Wuhan or contact with someone who had traveled to Wuhan.
      The theory the coronavirus had occurred naturally and jumped to humans from a bat has never been confirmed because no bats have been found that were infected. No animal has been found including all the wet market variety. If they were not guilty they would have eagerly released the data from the Wuhan lab and not have silenced anyone that wanted to tell about it including the 34 year old doctor that died from Covid even though at his age he should have easily survived it.

  53. function” engineering which enhances virus communicability and lethality.

    Shi moves back to Wuhan China to continue the engineering with the US grants.

    In 2015 their careless behaviour released a SARS variant killing several people.

    In 2017 the Trump administration rescinded the moratorium, which enabled new grants for gain of function engineering.

    In 2018 US embassy inspectors were allowed to review the work in China’s only p4 virus lab which was located in Wuhan. They reported back that it was not secure and a SARS like global pandemic was likely to originate there.

    The US government funded the development of COVID19, sent it to China and ignored their own warnings.

    Covid19 behaves like nothing we’ve seen before.

    Apparently they were trying to make a Coronavirus infect people with an HIV vaccine.

    Rob Misek
    April.20.2020 at 4:48 am
    Flag Comment Mute User
    This will be a very costly venture when the US and China are held legally liable for the global losses to life and economies.

    1. This precedes the initial post.

      You think this is something? Wait until China gets sued for releasing this upon the world. Can you spell global economic upheaval?

      Those COVID bats came from Yunnan, 1000 miles from Wuhan. Bats only fly 30 miles from their roost.
      None of the first COVID cases were at Yunnan or on the way between there and Wuhan.

      The bat lady virologist did collect bats from Yunnan and bring them to the p4 lab at Wuhan to develop exactly COVID.

      Better late than never.

      https://reason.com/2020/04/17/covid-19-lethality-not-much-different-than-flu-says-new-study/

      Rob Misek
      April.19.2020 at 2:28 pm
      Flag Comment Mute User
      Dipshits that say the virus was discovered not developed probably still believe in Santa Claus.

      Since the early 2000’s the leading Chinese virologist t Doctor Shi Zhengli has been engineering Coronaviruses working in North Carolina with millions in US grants.

      In 2014 the Obama administration initiated a temporary moratorium on “Gain of…

  54. If it didn’t come from the lab releasing all the data and allowing forensic audits would clear the CCP and make those alleging it came from the lab look foolish. Kind of like the 2020 election with Democrats trying to block any forensic audits that would show they are right and would embarrass those claiming fraud. The CCP and the left are just so nice they don’t want to embarrass anyone. Isn’t it great they are protecting the feelings of all those people? It isn’t always true that only criminals hide evidence.

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  62. I love being called a conspiracy theorist in late 19 and being vindicated 2 years later. Told you so.

    Why can’t anyone use logic anymore? Cases originate in Wuhan, the infected are from a lab, and that lab works on coronaviruses. Leading doctors “mysteriously” die/disappeared. We all know how China works. They were summarily executed by CCCP because they knew too much. Can’t interrogate dead people. Writing was on the wall from day 1.

    The question at this point is not whether the lab leak is real, but whether it was intentional and whether the research was for medical or bioweapon purposes. Place your bets and see you again in another 2 years.

    1. MERS. 50% fatal, didnt spread.
      SARS 1 2003. Not dangerousm Spread lime crazy.

      SARS2 . This virus. In between.

      ( that analysis from a friend with a PHd in Genetics…)

      “Ill take ‘experimenting with a bio weapon’ for $1,000, Alex.”.

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