Minimum Wage

Progressives Say Good Riddance to Businesses Who Can't Afford a $15 Minimum Wage

Fewer low wage businesses also means fewer job opportunities for low wage workers.

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Certain progressives are becoming increasingly cavalier about the economic consequences of raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour.

"They shouldn't be doing it by paying low wages. We don't want low-wage businesses," Rep. Ro Khanna (D–Calif.) said on CNN earlier this week when asked about whether hard-pressed small businesses would be able to absorb the mandated pay hike. "I think $15 is very reasonable in this country."

Khanna's seemingly blasé acknowledgment that the Democrats' minimum wage proposal would force some small businesses to shut down sparked immediate criticism from conservatives. Khanna later clarified his remarks on Twitter by saying he thought a $15 an hour federal minimum wage would be good for both workers and employers.

Nevertheless, other left-wing commenters approvingly tweeted out Khanna's original remarks, saying that forcing businesses who can't afford the new higher minimum wage to close would be a good thing.

 

That's a callous attitude to take towards small business owners in light of the difficulties they're already facing amid a pandemic and related public health restrictions. Given how many mom-and-pop operations would struggle to cope with a $15 federal minimum wage, these commentators are writing off a huge number of existing businesses as essentially worthless.

Nationally, about a third of small businesses have closed since the start of the pandemic. Small business revenue is down by about the same amount.

The proposed $15 an hour minimum wage, which the proposed Raise the Wage Act would phase in by 2025, is higher than the current median wage in Mississippi, notes Scott Lincicome of the Cato Institute. The figure is only a little less than the median wage in states like Arkansas, West Virginia, and Louisiana.

Making that median wage the new national floor would prove fatal for a huge number of employers in those lower-wage, lower-cost states.

And even if one isn't inclined to shed a tear for mom-and-pop businesses, it's not like the current lower-wage employees of those businesses would be made better off either. They'd stand to make $0 an hour if their employer shuts down. And even if the business does survive, those employees still risk cuts to their hours or worsening working conditions.

That's what's playing out in Fresno, California, where the rollout of that state's $15 an hour minimum wage law was the subject of a recent investigation by The New York Times.

As that story notes, Fresno, as a lower-wage, lower-cost area of a higher-wage, high-cost state, makes for a good case study on how the phase-in of a $15 an hour federal minimum wage might work.

In January, California hiked its minimum wage to $14 an hour. Businesses in Fresno, where the median wage is $17 an hour, have responded by either raising prices, cutting staff, or both, the Times found.

The Congressional Budget Office estimates a $15 an hour national minimum wage would cost 1.4 million people their jobs.

A similar story is playing out in West Coast cities that have passed hazard pay ordinances that require grocers to pay their employees an additional $4 or $5 an hour during the pandemic.

Some grocery store chains have responded by closing down poor-performing stores. Independent operators say they're being forced to operate in the red, and might not survive for much longer. According to a city staff analysis, a proposed $5 an hour hazard pay proposal in Los Angeles would risk price hikes, job losses, store closures, and the creation of "food deserts."

Grocery stores are particularly sensitive to sudden increases in their labor costs given the typically tight margins those businesses operate on. That's true even during the pandemic when some grocery chains have reaped record profits.

Small businesses experiencing declining revenue during the pandemic would obviously be harder hit by sudden increases in their labor costs.

Even if one thinks it's fine for businesses that pay low wages to go extinct, their shuttering also means fewer job options for low-wage workers. There's no social justice in that.

NEXT: We Should Keep Expanding Telehealth, Even After the Pandemic

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  1. And when government ruins the dollar further, good riddance to businesses that can’t pay $25/hr, or $30/hr, or $40/hr, or whatever fake number they pull out of their asses.

    1. “I think $15 is very reasonable in this country.”

      Khanna is a Bernie bro, as he was named a national co-chair of Bernie Sanders's 2020 presidential campaign in 2019.

      $15 might be reasonable in California, where the minimum wage is already $13/hr. However in Oklahoma, for example, the minimum wage is $7.25/hr. The cost of living in OK is very cheap. That is why the wage is also low. Khanna's ignorance on these matters is why Khanna should go back to doing law in his state, instead of being a politician.

      1. Khanna looks like a POS that wants to see our country burn. I dont think hes ignorant. I think he is malignant.

        1. POS is just for “point of sale” of course, as we all surely know lol

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  2. And fewer opportunities for entrepreneurs, who tend to vote Republican.

    1. Republicans and immigrants.

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    2. Britches shocked to be getting exactly what they said they were going to do.

      Reason ‘libertarianism’ – whine about getting what you say you don’t want but do absolutely nothing that might actually result in getting what you say you want.

      Same old same old from a closet full of progressives.

  3. The minimum wage is just about the only major issue on which we Koch / Reason libertarians differ from progressive Democrats. So this was always a risk when we decided to back Biden.

    But it’s important to note that our promotion of a $0.00 / hour minimum wage is only one part of our economic agenda. We also demand unlimited, unrestricted immigration of laborers from every other country on the planet (especially Mexico). And I’ll gladly take a Democratic Party that agrees with us on immigration, but not the minimum wage, over a Republican Party that agrees with us on neither.

    #ImmigrationAboveAll

  4. Well these people sound like assholes.

    1. Yes, give in to your hate for the state. Give in to the libertarian side.

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      1. “…Give in to the libertarian side.”

        I see you’ve already given your stupidity free rein

      2. It isn’t hate to understand that our lives and prosperity are ultimately predicated on the elimination of much of the prog population.

        It’s survival.

      3. I dont know if ananimasu is serious. It sounds a bit like he really just wanted to make a star wars comment. But i dont know whos behind that handle

        1. Yeah, I’m just some thirty year old living in his mom’s basement who plays Everquest and watches Ben Shapiro, Bret Weinstein and Milo Yiannopoulos interspersed with visiting hentai sites and 4chan. I’m just watching the world burn and contemplating my miserable lack of personal achievement.

          1. His story checks out.

          2. Well then, have fun existing I guess. 😀

  5. Even if a small business managed to survive the lockdown, this could be the final blow. The effect of this is a wealth transfer from the middle class to the 1%.
    Amazon and Netflix are doing fine. Mom and Pop, not so much.
    It’s almost as though the powers that be prefer that we be a nation subservient to a few corporate masters and that independent, small business owners disappear.

    1. Google up how many new businesses have started since the lockdowns, to deliver or otherwise fill needs. Entrepreneurs can’t be held down.

      1. “Bring out your dead!”

      2. Wait 12 months and Google how many of those new businesses are still around.

        1. See how many of the entrepreneurs moved on to fill different needs.

          1. “It’s OK if their businesses fail and they have to let all their employees go. They can just start new ones!”

            1. Well…. until the payment processors and banks deny them access.

          2. Yea just let em drown, who cares. Except that all you get from this business rotation is solidification of the positions of market behemoths and quasi monopolists while the market climate grows ever more hostile against regular small businesses, the very seeds of new impulses. You are oblivious to the fact that -even if businesses are currently being replaced – there will be a downwards trend and small businesses that can deal with this shit will grow rarer and rarer and possibly more dependent on (then available?) help from their betters. Which they might want, because it will enable them to cancel any new businesses they dont like by simply withholding whatever will be necessary to start a small business under the new conditions. Fuck, why am i even doing this

            1. To remind people that Reason is nothing but a bunch of progressive journolisting shills bought and paid for by their corporate masters.

              1. Guess you’re right

      3. You still use Google.

        1. You still make every argument about the person, not the subject or idea.

          1. You fucking liar. You said you didn’t read my posts.

          2. No, we destroy your arguments and ideas here every day. As you’re also a shitweasel, we aren’t very nice to you about it.

            It’s still better than what you deserve.

      4. And assholes like this Khanna guy will try just as hard to shut them down too. Speaking of what we don’t want: these hateful shits.

  6. As long as it applies to folks participating in political campaigns. If someone can’t “volunteer” for less than $15/hr then they shouldn’t be able to volunteer for $0/hr.

    1. If you can’t afford to run a campaign and pay everyone involved a living wage, then you don’t deserve to be in office.

    2. End internships now!

  7. If you want workers to get more money, go find them and give them your money. Don’t make someone go out of business. That’s not helpful.

    1. Being helpful is not even a tiny part of their agenda.

  8. Seems that a requirement for politics is a willful ignorance of economics.

    1. Like say preferring the guy promising the GND, raising taxes, increasing regulations…

      1. But hey, no more mean tweets.

      2. Oh, I get it. You’re accusing me of voting for Biden. Clever. Not.

        1. No, I said clearly you preferred him you fucking half wit. Based on a year of hyperbolic strawman and not one criticism of Biden or Democrats open plans.

          Keep denying buddy. Youre a useful idiot of the left.

          1. I bet Sarc got beaten up a lot as a kid, maybe beyond. Although not nearly enough.

    2. Hostility toward economics, maybe helped in many cases by massive ignorance/stupidity.

    3. Well of course, if they weren’t ignorant of economics they’d go into business instead of politics.

  9. They’ve been publicly saying this for years, with commenters right here on Reason claiming no one on the left has ever suggested such a thing.

    Remember when I said that Trump’s instinct– whatever his other faults– “wants an America” whereas the left “doesn’t want America”? This is it, reduced to easily digestible bites with a ribbon on it.

    1. Forget it. They can’t think in such aggregates to save their fucking lives. You are waaaaaay outside of their “communication window” to the point where your thoughts seem cloudy and meaningless to them. They literally can’t grasp the relevance of it. It looks like the opposite of meaningful to them, as far as I have come to understand that type of communcation malfunction. It seems empty. You even struggle to find a word for it and therefore call it an “instinct”. It will not make sense to them. It will not convey the substance you see when you formulate it. Fuck im in a great mood tonight.

      1. I think you’re on to something. The progressives I know just don’t seem to register a vast universe of ideas, arguments, rhetorical approaches, or even simple facts. If it doesn’t fall within the scope of their current talking points or a few well-worn hobbyhorses, they just blink and draw a blank.

        1. It’s a herd mentality. They go with the group, just like the editors here.

  10. The irony is that jobs in rural communities that do pay a “living wage,” as defined by the Democrats, are in the very industries they are doing their damndest to kill off–energy and resource extraction manned largely by unionized workers. In Craig, Colorado, workers in the local mine were making $60K a year, which is perfectly fine for a community of that size. The neo-yuppie pusbags from the Front Range worked to kill that off, and now the town is in the position of having to figure out how to replace those lost jobs and middle-class wages. Same with fracking on the east side of the mountains.

    The service and retail industry–which these measures are largely targeting–has never, in its entire history in this country, been a middle-class profession until you get to the general management levels, and even then it’s dicey. Even assistant managers get paid diddley-dick; I made more money in tips as a waiter than I did as an assistant manager at a movie theater when I was in college.

    And ironically, it was the incentivizing of outsourcing jobs overseas that led to the increased growth of the service industry. So congrats, right-wing globalists, you get to reap the $15/hr fruits of that policy.

    1. “irony”

      Lol. Is it ironic if it’s all part of the plan?

    2. During the last election an out of state environmental group tried to portray Bullock as a champion for public land by telling us how much money Montana earns from public land and implying it was all tourism dollars. No, it was mostly resource extraction and agriculture. Oil, logging and grazing make up the bulk of public land income dollars. Of the rest the majority is Yellowstone and Glacier, not national forests and BLM camping fees. Also a decent percentage of what is made on national forest and BLM land is from outfitters charging big bucks to guide out of state anglers and hunters, which can and is done just as profitably on private land.

  11. If you can’t afford the robots to replace your work force, you shouldn’t be in business.

    1. Already happening in grocery stores and fast food joints. Can we do the same with teachers?

      1. “…Can we do the same with teachers?”

        Most of them, sure.

        1. No, then the kids might actually learn something.

          Unless, like the elections, all the programming is declared trade secret and no parent is allowed to see what is really inside.

      2. Robot unions. Hmmm.

  12. Progressive ideas about how the economy works are dumber than creationism. A basic understanding of economics is fundamental to understanding evolution–regardless of whether you’re talking about survival of the fittest or genetic drift. There are few creationists who will deny that increasing the cost of something doesn’t diminish the demand. Progressives are either dumber than creationists that way or they’re like Moonies, who would rather be obviously wrong than admit something that might make progressive “economics” look bad.

    Marxism, by itself, isn’t even this stupid. Marxists are wrong and they can be evil, but they’re nowhere near as willfully stupid as progressives. To be a heartfelt progressive on an issue like this is to proudly embrace ignorance and stupidity. Dumber than creationism. Dumber than Marxism. Progressives really are the way rednecks used to be seen. You can lay out all the facts for them, appeal to all logic, but they won’t budge–because they’re progressives, and that means they can’t be persuaded.

    1. Progressivism is very similar to creationism. For them government is their god. Everything comes from government. Government doesn’t protect rights, it creates them. Government doesn’t protect property, it allows you to keep it. Same with income. Everything belongs to the state. It is god. It can shape reality because it pays people who will literally kill you if they say 2 + 2 = 5 and you disagree. Might makes right is their credo.

      1. Holy shit. After 15 months you can finally criticize the left. Baby steps. Baby steps. One day you may even cure yourself of utter ignorance.

        Feel free to prove me wrong with any other criticism you’ve made.

        1. In principle.

          In practice we all know that he will find excuses to argue in favor of them.

    2. I call it the economic creation science.

  13. “The Congressional Budget Office estimates a $15 an hour national minimum wage would cost 1.4 million people their jobs.”

    This is a feature, not a bug. What better way to show people the value of a progressive government than to force them to become reliant on progressive government?

    Right now those 1.4 million people have some silly notion about independence and about their role in determining their own destiny. It’s about time someone disabused them of those archaic ideals. Working is for suckers anyways, perpetual victimhood is the way of the future and progressives like nothing better than dragging people into the future kicking and screaming.

    1. It’ll cost a hell of a lot more than a million and a half jobs.

      1. That is why it will be followed with a stimulus package funded by the middle class.

    2. The Millennial/Gen-Z dream: “Why should I have to work when some rich people can pay me UBI to sit on my couch and consooooooooooooooooooooome?”

      1. Sit on my couch in my fully automated luxury apartment with a rent of $0.00 and waited on by my robot servants.

        1. The literal motto of the Great Reset program: “You’ll own nothing, and you’ll be happy.”

        2. That future is not too far away at this point. There is a developer in Seattle who has a new luxury apartment building in what used to be a very nice area downtown that has been taking over by homeless encampments, and “mostly peaceful protestors,” and ruined by high crime and the fleeing of businesses to the suburbs. He’s selling it to a non-profit housing org for 18.2 million, financed by 11 million in government loans, to house 75 homeless and low income people in small luxury apartments. Basically the tax payers are the biggest financing source for a low income housing scheme that comes about to almost a quarter of a million per person because property values have tanked thanks to a lack of leadership that has allowed high crime and homelessness to run amok. And still my friends and family cannot see why liberal leadership is a proven path to destruction.

  14. Minimum wage legislation is immoral. And a representative in Congress, sitting there in a nice suit with a silk tie, lecturing us on why we don’t need small businesses who can’t pay his minimum wage level is himself an immoral person.

    1. Yup. A tyrant worthy of death. I don’t say that lightly but these people would say that your very life is not your own.
      They have a huge sensitivity to the issue of slavery for a reason. It eats at whatever husk of a conscience they have left.
      And he brings up the “high” minimum wage of the late sixties, neglecting to mention that it was the equivalent of about $11 an hour today, and that it immediately preceded the worst decade of American prosperity since the depression.

  15. Marginal businesses need marginal workers who need marginal businesses. So that both have the opportunity to grow to their potential.

  16. “That’s a callous attitude to take towards small business owners”

    It’s not callousness Britches. These people are brain dead morons that have no understanding of what it means to own and run a business except what they learned on tv and from their retarded “teachers”.

  17. The more jobs we can destroy, the closer we come to the socialist utopia!

    1. The more business that shutter, the more your asshole relatives GTFO and take their prog bullshit with them back to the Lower 49

      1. Did you just blow in from Stupidville? Learn to recognize humor.

        1. Yes. I did. Your mom says hello

          1. wtf prog bullshit flooding into commifornia… uhm… like… that started happening yesterday? how about getting outta there and letting them concentrate further? until the blister pops and they have to be oozing out of the state. let them learn their lesson. vote with your feet. go where your vote has a chance to make a difference. go where you can have the means of self-defense you deserve. i get it now. sorry for your loss.

            1. Fuck that. I was born here and I’ll not be run off

  18. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) 1.6 million workers, or 1.9% of all hourly paid, non-self-employed workers, earned wages at or below the federal minimum wage in 2019.

    It’s almost as if this is some sort of bullshit.

    1. It’s likely statistically accurate, more or less. But the problem is that it’s restricted to “hourly paid, non-self-employed” workers, which is only a subset of all wage earners. A significantly more meaningful figure would be the percentage of all minimum wage (or below) workers who are kids just entering the workforce/working summer jobs and/or those working temporary seasonal jobs.

    2. I can easily believe that around 2% of all workers have never done a damned thing to improve their productivity.

      1. Try 20%.

  19. Is it too early for a joke about Tiger Woods ending up in the rough?

    1. He should have used a driver?

    2. It is never too early. I’m not funny, but I’m sure there’s a Jack Nicklaus joke to be had.

      1. More like Jack Daniels.

    3. As of late his putting has been good but can’t say the same for his driving.

  20. “ Putting more money in people’s pockets means they spend more in local communities.”

    Which drives prices up. Thanks, assholes!

    1. Dude, Tiger Woods almost died. Stop using the d word.

      1. The “d” word for Tiger is Denny’s.

    2. Don’t take it personally. We are just trying to drive out Non-Native Californians.

      1. You mean because unproductive people like your welfare state so much? Why would you think Commifornia is so attractive? Type “net exodus” into google, it auto-complete it to “net exodus from california” for me.

        You guys aren’t that great or important lol people don’t even care about you. You’re unattractive lol 😀

      2. just realized where youre coming from. your frustration about it seems to seriously mess with your humor sensors. you have turned into the dog that will bite anyone. california will not recover the soft way by virtue of gradual change of political views. they have to learn their lesson the hard way. need to let go.

    3. Aside from that, the logical conclusion is set an even higher minimum wage.

  21. Dear Slaves. You don’t have the freedom to decide what YOUR work is worth. [WE] Slave owners will decide that for you!

    Signed. The Party of Slavery.

    1. Come to think of it…Slaves were worked as hard as possible, and given enough to survive another day.

      From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.

    2. ..And if you try to defy the [WE] PLANStation slave owners demands..
      1) [WE]’ll first (rob/charge) you by threaten you with Gov-Guns.
      2) [WE]’ll tie your hands and beat you while packing Gov-Guns.
      3) If all else fails; [WE]’ll shoot you with Gov-Guns.

      Welcome to the Nazi (def; National Socialist) Regime; we’ve taken over the United States by defying “you peoples” haha law over us called the U.S. Constitution. Your law can’t save you as long as [WE] pretend it doesn’t exist while taking sworn oaths to uphold it after frauding your elections.

  22. Why should businesses across the country give up their comparative advantage to California and New York? The cost of living is so much lower elsewhere.

    1. Because we have taken in the riff raff from the lower 49 unflinchingly and we are now over run with the feral hogs that are non-native born Californians.

      People say “What’s wrong with California?”
      Your fucking relatives is what’s wrong.

      1. Now I get your issue with my comment. You didn’t think I was actually promoting socialism, you’re just an asshole.

        1. No. I got your gist. It just isn’t funny because it is true.

          Please bring your relatives back home like the prodigal feral hogs that are non-native Californians

          1. No, I don’t think you did. And now you are covering for your faux pas instead of being a man and showing the honor necessary to admit it.

            1. I have no problem admitting when I have missed sarcasm and or humor.

              And as someone who has witnessed the death of sarcasm in the comments here over the last 4 or 5 years, I would welcome it.

              1. Okay sure you do.

              2. Fuck off and die.
                Like that pathetic piece of narcissistic shit squirly-whatever, no one here should bother wasting time trying to decide how stupid you are; just say 100% stupid.
                Fuck off and die.

              3. The lower 49 huh… speaking out of Commifornia. Sorry dude, I think you’re pathetic.

  23. the very arrogance that these people think they can decide who “deserves” to operate their businesses.

    They are in a race to ban fossil fuels before the woodchippers are deployed.

  24. It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.

  25. Thus Spake Assahola

  26. “Welcome to California. Now GTFO”

  27. While the economics of the minimum wage are apparent to all but the morons on the left, why are libertarians continually arguing against it on that basis? What about freedom to contract?

    1. The counterargument is that the poor, uneducated, unskilled people who would enter into such a contract are too stupid to know what’s good for them, and government should step in and change the terms. Better to be unemployed than to be paid something that isn’t a living wage.

    2. The idea of freedom is lost on others.

      1. Run out of racist Tiger Woods jokes?

        1. He drove to the green today.

          1. At least we know which parent gave him driving lessons.

        2. At least he avoided a water hazard.

        3. Show what was racist in the jokes about Tiger Woods? How are any of the jokes racist? Fuck, you’re dumber than Tony and that takes some doing. Is this Sqrsly’s new handle?

          1. Don’t get your panty hose in a bunch Corporal Klinger, you may miss the sarcasm

            1. Oh that was meant as sarcasm. Okay. We see your level of wit now (paired with your sophomoric yo momma comeback above it’s not very great or original). But I stand corrected.

              1. Oh and calling me Klinger was such an insult. I feel wounded to be referred to as someone as resourceful as Klinger was, especially after he took over for Radar. Touche, wounded me to the bone.

            2. ‘you may miss the stupidity’
              FIFY, you pile of shit.

        4. “Run out of racist Tiger Woods jokes?”
          Fuck off and die.

        5. My Tiger Woods joke wasn’t racist. Project much?

    3. Because actual libertarianism isn’t in the Reason Stylebook. If it were then they might have to hire actual libertarians to write. And those cost real money, unlike the bog standard kids coming out of journolist proggy inculcation centers, who are all streetwalkers down for the cause.

      Which conveniently explains why their arguments inevitably are based upon Utilitarian analysis of Marxist viewpoints.

      1. It’s frankly sad that more people do not recognize them for what they are.

        Rather than leading with a consideration of individual liberty, and any potential restrictions place upon it they instead give us an Utilitarian analysis of economic considerations and potential secondary effects of the direct measure. Determining that the net effect will be reduced productivity. Which is axiomatically taken as a bad thing.

        As if they are a project development team working for a middle manager at some megacorporation rather than libertarians writing polemics.

        Oh, wait…

  28. These hypocrites are OK with a paltry $15/hour in San Francisco (which is already completely within their power to set without input from the Feds or even the state), but care nothing about destroying the economy in Puerto Rico, which has an even lower median wage that Mississippi, etc.

    I’ve found this link useful. I’ve come across people claiming the Federal minimum wage in 1976 (or maybe they use some other year) was the equivalent of $20/hour today, which is complete bull. The highest was $11.55/hour in 1968 (2018 dollars). Of course, this is irrelevant as to what the Federal MW *should* be.
    https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/business/us-minimum-wage-by-year/index.html

    1. It’s too bad that these fuckers are so focused on a policy that will inflate the cost of goods and services, rather than focusing on something that will DEFLATE costs while keeping Americans working.

      1. Like cheap energy.

        1. But not double-plus-good energy!

  29. I think $15 is very reasonable in this country.

    At least they’re no longer pretending to know the margins of every small business. They admit that they just don’t care.

    1. Only threats made with Gov-Guns is “reasonable”.. And only statements claimed ‘science’ and backed up with threats of Gov-Guns is real ‘science’.

      The one thing the left can be counted on for its use of Gov-Guns against the people.

      1. ..No such thing as a good job or bad job or good pay or bad pay in the land of tyrants. ONLY Gov-Guns as a weapon of FORCE against every citizen and a tyrant will determine what is what.

  30. This is completely wrongheaded. Small businesses can easily pay $ 15 to some of their employees, but quite frankly can easily get rid of the rest of the jobs. Let me illustrate. Start off the morning, go to the Kiosk at Mcdonald’s order my meal and move over to collect my meal. One job not there. Got the movies, I go to the Kiosk and buy my tickets – another job missing.

    Businesses can make small investments in smarter technology, and eliminate a job or two and pay the remaining employees the $ 15.

    So, “Khanna’s seemingly blasé acknowledgment that the Democrats’ minimum wage proposal would force some small businesses to shut down” is not true. Much rather a significant portion of the workforce will lose their jobs and then received $ 0 per hour – the real minimum wage!!

    Why don’t Democrats see this? Isn’t it obvious?

    1. Yeah, if I pay a farm hand $15/hr to feed cattle, I could buy a used tractor to do the same work for what I pay in yearly salary. Of course I have maintenance costs and depreciation but in five years I could trade it in, pay the same amount and buy a better tractor and so on and so on. With a tractor I could easily feed triple the herd I have, which would make me more profitable and easier to get financing to buy more cattle and more equipment. And not have to hire anyone else.

      1. And the tractor doesn’t complain.

      2. Don’t tell the Bernie-boy Ro; he ‘thinks’ that since he’s a S-V resident, he’s given magical access to ‘the truth’!.
        He isn’t; he’s a lefty scumbag.

      3. You’d end up paying for the tractor regardless.

        That’s where that whole argument of “Replacing workers with computers” falls flat. Technology advances regardless. Workers will eventually get replaced anyway. Every day, the value of the machine would grow while the value of the person decreases.

        Not that I’m against that, technological advancement is always preferable. But claiming that “I’d rather buy a tractor than pay 15/hr!” doesn’t hold much water as a defense if every year that passes, said pay grade goes lower and lower.

        A few years pass and you’ll easily go “I’d rather buy a tractor than pay a single cent over 6 bucks an hour!”

        1. So? Buying a tractor is a better investment. But you won’t buy much of a tractor for $12,480 but you can buy a decent tractor for $31,200. And I mentioned operation costs and depreciation, didn’t I? Why yes I did. The tractor would help me grow more than a single worker will. Period. And at $15/hr I can invest that in a better tractor than I could at the current minimum wage. Argue some more with me, it isn’t like I ranch and also teach agricultural sciences at all. Oh wait I do both and actually understand the logistics and economics of what I am talking about.

          1. Even the current minimum wage, $15,080 a year full time I couldn’t buy a very good tractor. But at $31,200 I could. Basic economics the cost is prohibitive right now but raise the employment prices and it no longer is. And a tractor will not cost me $31,200/year to operate.

          2. Okay mean culpa 51% of small business owners do pay themselves a salary, so just over half while just under half don’t. They’re so greedy not only don’t they pay their workers they don’t even pay themselves… The fiends.

          3. So then don’t bother with employees at all then. If you don’t need them, you don’t need to pay for them.

            But don’t act like you’re doing possible employees a favor if you’re only paying them 5 bucks an hour. That’s just insulting.

            1. You seem to be purposely missing the point. I could hire a worker for my current herd. And no I am not doing them a favor. I am doing it to help me with my business. But you increase the cost of hiring that worker I just buy a tractor instead. At my current size hiring a worker makes more sense to my banker than buying a tractor (as a small business owner my banker makes much of my decisions for me, it’s called capitalization). But if that worker costs me more than a tractor my banker will encourage me to buy a tractor and increase my herd size rather than hire a worker. And if I have a worker my banker will probably demand I fire them or else risk losing my operating loan. Businesses run on credit.

              1. However, my banker really wants me to buy more head and a tractor and not hire an employee. Because that is better for them. And me in the long run. But an employee would be great for me currently.

                1. And if the cost of a tractor goes up, you’ll just see an employee as having better value. There’s no difference.

                  If you see both an employee and a tractor as just expenses, then you just pick the one that’s obviously cheaper.

                  So obviously you’d try to low-wage the employee as much as possible.

                  1. No, the tractor is an asset. And if it goes up, I have insurance.

                    1. So again, you have no stake in this argument cause you want a tractor instead.

                    2. No I want a tractor now but will need employees in the future. God do you bother reading my responses?

        2. And yes I’d rather buy a tractor. With one more hand I could maybe feed twice my cows, with a tractor eight times more cows.

          1. With a $15 minimum wage, I think you even underestimate the productivity of your future tractors. I will make my money from the robotization boom. With more guns than people in this country though, what will happen next in this country won’t be as easy to government-streamline as, say, Hong Kong or Venezuela.

  31. BTW Christian, who did you support/vote for last November?

  32. If a buisness can’t afford a decent wage, it doesn’t deserve to be in business.

    You don’t hear people complaining about the other costs needed for businesses and saying THOSE costs have to be reduced to run a business. And I’m not even talking about costs related to regulations or licenses. I mean the BARE BASICS like equipment needed or inventory to sell.

    “Oh? This big machine I need to run my store costs $10,000? Screw that! You’re just ruining my mom and pop store! I demand that I only pay $4,000 for it!”

    1. “If a buisness can’t afford a decent wage, it doesn’t deserve to be in business.”
      Is this stupidity or sarc; can’t tell.

      1. Second look: stupidity.
        Fuck off and die, lefty ignoramus.

    2. Please point out a case where government is mandating a minimum price for equipment.

      1. Better question: Why is it businesses are willing to accept costs of necessary needs for a business to run like equipment/inventory, but when it comes to actually paying workers, they’ll fight tooth and nail to pay as little as possible?

        1. First show me a business that will willingly pay more for the same item, supply, or equipment.

          But, assuming your question is just honest ignorance. The answer can be found in most any book on running a business, under the difference between an asset and an expense.

          And is further expanded upon by the section explaining how that expense is also often a liability as well.

          For a simplified example see Soldiermedic discussing his own business operation above.

          Also, do understand that your question asked much less about it’s ostensible subject than it revealed about you.

          1. The fact that you refer to employees as nothing more than an “expense” and a “liability” reveals a lot about you too.

            1. Employees are an expense. The fact that you think this is a rejoinder means you don’t understand basic economics. And most small business owners I know would love to be able to afford to pay more and most owners don’t take a salary themselves. Do it isn’t like they are greedily underpaying their workers. Especially when starting out, you don’t have capital. The article doesn’t talk about how much of an impediment this will be for businesses to even start.

              1. So? Equipment/Inventory are also “impediments” for starting a business too.

                If they can’t properly budget or get the required capital to start a business as needed, then they don’t deserve to be in business in the first place.

                1. Banks will loan for equipment. They will loan for employees also but employees are not assets, so they loan less. Equipment is an asset, they can seize it if you default, they can’t seize employees. You have never applied for a small business loan have you? Your arguments are puerile appeals to emotion that lack logic and understanding of basic economics and especially lack understanding of how small businesses operate and capitlize. For three years I have avoided taking out a loan, mainly because my biggest creditor is a good friend and let my debt ride. But I have been forced to take out an operating loan this year because I have reached the limits of my capital. I know the process and you seem not to.

                  1. All businesses run on credit actually, just big businesses capitalization isn’t difficult but for small businesses it’s a constant worry. My banker is my business partner. That is the reality.

                  2. You apparently don’t have employees, just a tractor. So what stake do you even have on this?

                    1. I don’t have either but understand the cost of both because I want to grow and growing requires one or the other. You seem not to understand the difference between expenses and assets.

                2. Are you literally arguing only rich people should start businesses and everyone else should forget about bettering themselves? Because that is what your argument amounts to. Equipment is an asset the bank can seize, it really isn’t an impediment, in fact it is often a positive when applying for a small business loan. I can get a loan to buy a tractor far easier than a loan to pay an employee. In fact, my banker encourages the former well discouraging the latter. I can get a loan to buy more cows far easier than a loan to hire an employee. Because they have intrinsic value to my lender, whereas an employee doesn’t. And small businesses run on credit. Especially for the first three to five years (which is the average time from startup to profitability).

                  1. No, I’m arguing that if you need employees for your business, you have to properly budget for them.

                    And frankly, the fact that your business apparently entirely runs on having ZERO employees, I don’t see what stake you have in this argument.

                    1. Because I want to grow so my business is sustainable. It is a future cost, even after I get a tractor, at some point I will need help. Because there are only 24 hours in a day. Fuck you are oblivious.

                    2. I tried to debate with you civilly, I tried to have an honest discussion with you but you only resort to appeals to authority and dismissing real world experience and knowledge. Just because I don’t currently have any employees doesn’t mean I am not looking to hire and or buy equipment. If you think a small business is static you are beyond oblivious. As for budgeting, yes they budget but now you want to increase that costs while not increasing their income. So now you just destroyed their budget. Fuck your arguments are sophomoric.

                    3. But apparently buying your new tractor wouldn’t break your budget.

                    4. At this point it will. But later a tractor is an asset I can use for future capitalization. I can’t get a secured loan on an employee but can on a tractor. As I’ve already explained multiple times.

            2. “The fact that you refer to employees as nothing more than an “expense” and a “liability” reveals a lot about you too.”

              The fact that you find that ‘revealing’ reveals that you are a fucking lefty ignoramus.
              Fuck off and die

            3. “The fact that you refer to employees as nothing more than an “expense” and a “liability” reveals a lot about you too.”

              I stated no such thing. To anyone not quite so ignorant as you they are certainly and extremely obviously not “nothing more” than an expense. At the very least they are a means of productivity. If not then why the Hell is the business paying them?

              What you attempt infer from my reply to your question is again entirely indicative of your lack of knowledge, understanding, or experience of what a business is, or how it functions.

              1. You are commenting on a libertarian site.

                Are you concerned with liberty? Do you support individual liberty?

                If so then why do you insist on denying both the employers and the employees the ability to decide the question of payment for services themselves?

                Have you no respect for their individual autonomy?

                1. And, also consider that you have attempted to insinuate that I have no concern for the individual.

                  But please do note that I have gone out of my way to explain your error. Unlike some of the other commenters here, who have simply called you an idiot.

                  Not so much because they disagree with you, but because you are indeed being idiotic.

                  I’m a helper, you see.

              2. “If not then why the Hell is the business paying them?”

                Cause then it’d just be slavery if they didn’t. Though I’m pretty sure most businesses would love it if that were the case.

                1. Read Adam Smith on slavery, paying a salary is cheaper than slavery in most every case. Fuck another stupid ad hominem, implying business owners are all greedy evil people.

                  1. Pretty much, yes. The entire purpose of a business is to maximize profit.

                    1. Making profits doesn’t make them greedy or evil. It means they want to stay in business which keeps their employees employed. Which most also want. God you are juvenile in your assessments.

        2. “Better question: Why is it businesses are willing to accept costs of necessary needs for a business to run like equipment/inventory, but when it comes to actually paying workers, they’ll fight tooth and nail to pay as little as possible?”

          Even better question: How did you manage to get so misinformed about businesses?
          And why are you making a public display of your stupidity?

        3. Better question: Why are you moving the goalposts?

    3. I’d rather it be people who can’t compete in the wage market don’t deserve employees.

  33. More evidence that Democratic Party is populated by progressive ideologues who do not care if their great notions work in the real world. They are married to their idea of “fairness” and if that fails economically they will blame their victims for being wreckers and saboteurs.

  34. $15 isn’t going to stop people from being motivated by greed.

    No regulation means slavery and planes falling from the skies.

    We need enough regulation to support all human rights, the constitution being the primary rules of centralized regulation.

    1. “$15 isn’t going to stop people from being motivated by greed.”

      Well said; Fiat dollars doesn’t counter-balance market influence. Those who supply produce are only counter-balanced by competition. If labor goes up in fiat dollars all those with market influence just increase’s their sticker price accordingly. The only real ‘losers’ are those who lost value due to inflation being anyone who has saved or stored. Punishing the responsible citizens by STEALING their labors through ‘fiat’ numbers.

      The only way to cut greed is by opening up competition; Cut down copyright and patient law, cut down market entry paper-work, cut out market subsidies — cut “crony socialism”.

      1. Paying people a living wage, generally respecting everyone’s human rights, will take a HUGE bite out of the wealth of oligarchs.

        The earth is a closed system. It’s resources belong to everyone. You can’t steal what isn’t owned.

        1. Sure, sure; No one pays a monthly bill for the Sun to Shine or the Rain to fall — but that’s as far as your statement goes concerning “earth resources”.

          A central principle of “human rights” is ownership of a mans own creation, labor and property of which it’s market *value* is represented by the USD. Pretending to have a *right* to other peoples human rights/labor and property out of some manipulated and deceitful delusion that “humans belong to everyone” is complete and utter selfish B.S.

  35. “risk the creation of food deserts”

    The only reason there are food deserts is because racist companies refuse to serve people who don’t look like them.

    If they were not racist, they would not close those stores.

    It is known.

  36. I hire kids out of high school – typically starting at $12/hr (Construction). Yes, it’s hard work. They don’t really know how to do anything but learn. I tell them right off that their job is to make a mistake every day (clearly not what they are expecting). And when I see them I ask, what was your mistake today. We teach them and keep them safe. It is very rare that a “kid” that sticks with us (most do) isn’t making north of 60k per year in 5 years. Would I still hire at $15 – sure – but I would take fewer risks on who I hire. That would be a loss to both of us.

  37. Here’s what happens when we raise the minimum wage.
    1. A floor is created under ALL wages.
    2. Since ALL sellers costs are raised, ALL prices are raised.
    3. Inflation kicks in.
    4. There’s another demand to raise the minimum wage.
    5. Rinse, repeat from step 1.

    1. +All the people who saved for retirement LOOSE their life savings under ‘fiat’ inflation. Nothing says ‘caring’ like *stealing* people’s savings account and retirement.

      1. Don’t keep your savings in dollars.

        1. Silver and lead are my only assets that I call savings.

  38. I live in Florida where we just passed a 15.00/hr referendum on minimum wages. It will gradually kick in over the next 3 years or so. I noticed that the states mentioned where the average rate is at or near the 15.00 rate, i.e. Mississippi, Louisiana, West Virginia are among the poorest states in the nation. I am an avowed progressive and for a long time I was against raising the minimum wage above 10.00/hr, but I have finally come around to throw my lot in with the 15.00/hr minimum crowd. I think this is a living wage for those with minimum skills. I am in my 60s so i can remember when working at fast food joints was work for teens after school or weekends. Today, people are working full-time and trying to raise a family, which is still impossible to do on 15.00/hr. This is a social, systemic problem where adults don’t have the skill sets to command living wages. It is a failure by our education system and a failure by both government and business leadership. Yet, CEOs on wall street continue to earn millions and millions in salaries and bonues, even those who are driving their companies into bankruptcy. Nobody said a free market economy was a fair economy, but as the richest country in the world we should be able to take care of our poor and marginalized fellow humans. God bless America.

    1. Today, people are working full-time and trying to raise a family, which is still impossible to do on 15.00/hr.

      Well, shucks, I guess no one should work a full time job unless you can raise a family on it. It just makes sense. Because we care about poor and marginalized people. QED.

    2. “I noticed that the states mentioned where the average rate is at or near the 15.00 rate, i.e. Mississippi, Louisiana, West Virginia are among the poorest states in the nation. I am an avowed progressive and for a long time I was against raising the minimum wage above 10.00/hr, but I have finally come around to throw my lot in with the 15.00/hr minimum crowd. I think this is a living wage for those with minimum skills.”

      Are you a parody?! Can you see the dissonance you installed right in between your statements?! “The states with about 15/hr are among the poorest => let’s make more states like that.” WHAT?!

  39. “I noticed that the states mentioned where the average rate is at or near the 15.00 rate, i.e. Mississippi, Louisiana, West Virginia are among the poorest states in the nation. I am an avowed progressive and for a long time I was against raising the minimum wage above 10.00/hr, but I have finally come around to throw my lot in with the 15.00/hr minimum crowd. I think this is a living wage for those with minimum skills.”

    Are you a parody?! Can you see the dissonance you installed right in between your statements?! “The states with about 15/hr are among the poorest => let’s make more states like that.” WHAT?!

    1. posted in wrong spot. Wish i could flag stuff for deletion.

  40. The economic science is settled!

  41. I don’t know what’s pro-capitalism about a position of insisting that extant businesses be given special treatment to ensure their survival. If you can’t survive in the environment you’re in, you’re supposed to die. That’s market churn.

    Given that the environment all businesses live in is one with a minimum wage, where that wage is set should take into account disruption in the status quo, and Biden obviously is taking that into account. It’s why they’re not raising it to $30.

    Complain into the wind about simply updating the minimum wage so that it catches up with the last generation of inflation. Nobody believes you’re working for any interest but those that rely on cheap labor.

    1. If the environment is being effected by the government it is no longer capitalism and is leaning toward socialism. The large corporations that the Democrats work for would love to see all competition eliminated by putting small businesses out of business. Wages are set by demand and skill. If the government puts it’s thumb on the scale toward the wealthy elite and large corporations that is not keeping up with inflation. No one works for the 7.25 federal minimum wage and states have raised minimum wage to what the market will bear.

    2. LOL nobody believes you’re working for any interest but those of big monopolists and corporations with your minimum wage babbling. It’s so easy to debunk your points by just pointing out that if the environment is artificial and controlled (which radical marxists like you want), the market is not free but being forced to work for interest groups.

      What you are doing is lock a bunch of people into a public bathroom, make zyklon B come out of the showerheads and then say: “yea, well if they can’t survive under the new conditions, it’s their problem. Not fit for evolution.”

      Who are you trying to fool, marxist? 😀

  42. You know what?

    I’m convinced. We should have two minimum wage laws. One for bona fide small businesses –the definition of which will need to be carefully crafted to exclude franchises, chains, and so-on– should have a lower minimum wage then big businesses.

    Because all these arguments about the terrors of a higher minimum wage? They don’t really hold there. We actually have data on this. You raise the minimum wage on McDonalds, and the Big Mac goes up in cents with no real changes in employment. Wal-Mart really can afford to pay their employees $15/hour and get them off food stamps and welfare.

    So y’all persuaded me. Federal $15 minimum wage for big businesses. State-mandated minimum wages for small businesses.

    1. If that’s true; why don’t you [WE] gang-up with McDonald’s and Wall-Mart workers and strike till you get $15/hr and if that doesn’t work WHY don’t you start-up your very own fast food service?

      WHY must you bring Gov-Guns into the equation? Do you think it’s right that people show up with threats of GUNS and *demand* a certain amount of $ from McDonald’s and Wall-Mart?

      But I’ll tell you the biggest curse of all; Thousands with productive potential being cut-out of the ability to be productive because their production can’t meet the baseline standard. Say goodbye to customer service, say goodbye to full-service gas stations, say goodbye to lawn service, say goodbye to etc,etc,etc…. Now instead of producing or creating those people will have to siphon off dependency pit of despair.

      The result is negative; LESS gets produced and MORE gets stolen with the threat of Gov-Guns.

      1. Same ‘lefty’ corrupt principles in the party of slavery. Hate them, then steal from them. Different target.

    2. Subminimum wages are not precluded in any minimum wage regime. This is very much a scare story trying to tug on heartstrings for the poor mom-and-pop shop that will have to close, when they’re really working on behalf of the Waltons, who eat mom-and-pop shops for breakfast.

      1. Don’t believe anything this radical leftist tells you. He is just trying to make it sound less radical, but you are allowing him to make big steps towards his control utopia if you let him get away with anything at all.

        1. Tony’s right once in a while. Usually when he thinks he’s attacking the Republicans but instead is just attacking a RINO following Democratic ideology instead of the actual Republican Platform.

  43. “‘Nationalist’ Is How a Republican Spells ‘Progressive.’” ~ David French

    Real business people, not cronies and neo-courtiers that do government not business, are caught between two progressive bigger government factions that agree on nearly every bad regulation and policy of substance, like the $15 minimum wage – well Trump did argue that even $15 was too low; but fight so loudly over style that resistance to their mutual bad substance gets drowned out.

    Slade’s bring back Fusionism argument never looked better. It was not pure Libertarianism, but it was a unified and consistent front line against these crazy proggies both D and R.

    “Trump deregulation has been an awful lot of hat and very little cattle.” ~ Thomas A. Firey, Regulation at Cato

  44. The left have no concern of small businesses closing and their model will close down many. Rep. Pressley is proposing guaranteed jobs for all Americans and will put the jobs in black communities. The jobs will start at 15.00 an hour with healthcare and retirement benefits, paid vacations and sick days. Small businesses in these communities will not be able to compete for workers and close down with the government taking over their businesses. Like Ro Khanna, Ayanna Pressley is a Justice Democrat that are socialist/communists. When asked how this would be paid for Pressley shrugged and said Congress would allocate the money. A few trillion a year cost would require taxes to be raised significantly on the working class as many of their programs would. That is where the revenue in taxes is collected. They could raise taxes on corporations and businesses to 99% and it would not bring in close to 1 trillion. These are the same promises Stalin and other dictators made the people.

    1. These are the same promises Stalin and other dictators made the people.
      Deserves a repeat.

  45. Is it reasonable? I think this is unreasonable, 15 dollars?Herve Leger Dresses

  46. This is just another shining example of how coastal elites are completely out of touch with reality. Do they really think that a gourmet burger place in Manhattan or San Francisco has the same cost and price structure as a mom and pop restaurant in Conway, Arkansas or Caldwell, Texas? Cost of living in rural America is much lower – as is the price people are willing to pay for basic goods and services. Let’s apply the Democrats flawed logic to the supply side, say rental rates. If $3000 a month for a studio apartment is okay in New York, it should be fine in Conway, right? What people can’t afford that? Too bad. We don’t want people who can’t afford to pay that rent. Really sounds stupid, doesn’t it?

  47. Let’s change the minimum wage a bit; stop focusing on the wages and focus on Federal Income taxes…EVERY American who earns less than Congress’s $250K/yr ($174K salary + $76K in benefits, {it’s actually much more}) shall be EXEMPT from filing a Federal Income tax return.

    Since we are worried about business, we should ask the question, “WHY ARE WE UTILIZING OVER 2/3RDS OF ALL THE IRS’s RESOURCES TO COLLECT 17% OF THE NATION’s REVENUE?” No American corporation would do that, but the conservatives who are so worried about small business owners, this practice prevents the IRS from focusing on their “SKIMMING” of their Federal Income tax liability.

    Call it what it is, the rich do not want to pay for the military protection that protects their interests around the world. They also don’t want to see the little guys grow unless those little guys are wanting to sell out to the big guys.

    The 5X’s rule would allow any small business owner to apply for worker’s wage assistance to meet the $15/hr threshold. $15/hr=$600/wk=$31200/yr, thus if the business owner earns less than $156K/yr would apply for employee wage assistance from the state or the feds – Given that the business owner can earn up to $250K/yr before he encounters any federal tax liability, that employer would have the opportunity to hire employees and offer a salary of up to $50K/employee, which is just over $24.03/hr, without any of the costs involved to the Biz owner who chooses to exceed the mandated minimum wage.

    Moreover, a simple 1% transaction tax on the purchase of of stocks, corp bonds, options, & commodities and a 1% sales tax on these same items would provide our nation with almost 4 times the revenue it is currently collecting. This tax would also allow our nation to reduce corporate income taxes, keep from raising tax rates on those who earn more than $250K/yr, pay for all the left’s social programs and STILL reduce our national debt.

  48. “Nevertheless, other left-wing commenters approvingly tweeted out Khanna’s original remarks, saying that forcing businesses who can’t afford the new higher minimum wage to close would be a good thing.”

    Unsaid: “Forcing people who can’t find anyone willing to pay them $15/hour to just stay home would be a good thing.”

  49. I think we will very soon, maybe already have, discovered why those much maligned “old white men” deliberately never used the word “democracy” in the Constitution. In fact, many personally expressed a fear that we would be sucked into the siren’s song of “democracy” which unrestrained quickly evolves into winner-take-all mob rule. Is it really “noble” that everyone has a vote? Seriously? Children? Non-citizens? Criminals? Those very ideas are no longer considered absurd in some circles with political clout.

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