Foreign Policy

Americans and Their Foreign Entanglements

Nothing in U.S. history suggests that ordinary Americans are isolationists—but nothing suggests they've embraced international adventurism either.

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Isolationism: A History of America's Efforts To Shield Itself From the World, by Charles A. Kupchan, Oxford University Press, 464 pages, $29.95

It is not unusual for intellectuals who study U.S. history to conflate the views of political leaders with those of all Americans. This is how Charles A. Kupchan, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and former member of the National Security Council, convinces himself in Isolationism: A History of America's Efforts To Shield Itself From the World that from the founding until the Second World War, "Americans" were dangerously, consistently, and almost universally opposed to foreign interventions—with the "notable departures" of the Spanish-American War of 1898, the subsequent decadeslong occupation of the Philippines, and U.S. entry into the killing fields of the First World War.

Since the intervention against the Axis in the 1940s, Kupchan argues that Americans have vacillated between a reluctance to intervene outside the national borders and a desire to remake the world in their image. But throughout our history, he maintains, "isolationism" has remained Americans' abiding attitude toward foreign relations.

Until the 1930s, no polls measured U.S. attitudes on the subject, leaving us little information about the foreign-policy views of Americans who did not hold public office. But we know quite a bit about the beliefs among American presidents, members of Congress, and political intellectuals from all periods of U.S. history. Among this class, the record shows a remarkably consistent commitment to forging, expanding, and maintaining a worldwide American empire.

Like many historians, Kupchan repeats the standard claim that George Washington's famous warning against "foreign entanglements" represented the views of the Founders and was followed by American leaders until the mid–20th century. In fact, the Founding Fathers were aggressive, unapologetic imperialists who fantasized about the creation of a global America.

Long before he entered politics, John Adams developed a theory of historical change that predicted America would become the next Rome. He wrote to a friend in 1755 that "the great seat of Empire" had been transferred from Rome to Britain and would likely move "into America." The new country would "obtain the mastery of the seas, and the united force of all Europe will not be able to subdue us."

Like Adams, Benjamin Franklin dreamed of an infinitely expansive America empire. In 1751, he provided a rationale, derived from John Locke's theory that property belongs to those who mix their labor with nature, for conquering and occupying all the land held by indigenous people in North America. Industrious Anglo-Saxons, who Franklin expressly preferred as the inhabitants of the new republic, were to replace the Indians with a new empire: "Hence the Prince that acquires new Territory, if he finds it vacant, or removes the Natives to give his own People Room; the Legislator that makes effectual Laws for promoting of Trade, increasing Employment, improving Land by more or better Tillage; providing more Food by Fisheries; securing Property, &c. and the Man that invents new Trades, Arts or Manufactures, or new Improvements in Husbandry, may be properly called Fathers of their Nation."

As president, George Washington, whose heroes included Caesar and Alexander the Great, allowed Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson to push for a buildup of the Navy and the creation of a Marine Corps, as well as for continued expansion westward across North America. Jefferson called for sending troops and warships to attack pirate ships operating from the northern African Barbary states that had captured and plundered American commercial vessels. Jefferson's rival, Alexander Hamilton, agreed that the United States was "the embryo of a great empire," even predicting that the U.S. would one day hold overseas colonies.

Within days of Jefferson's inauguration in 1801, four U.S. warships set sail for Tripoli. Throughout his first term, American ships patrolled the Mediterranean, blockading the ports of several north African states and sinking or capturing Barbary pirate corsairs and Tripolitan ships. By the summer of 1804, virtually the entire U.S. Navy was deployed to the region—23 war vessels in all—including a squadron of gunships that remained anchored in the harbor of Tripoli, bombarding the city with impunity. The next year, Jefferson sent ashore a fighting force of Marines and mercenaries who besieged the pasha's palace and replaced him with his brother, who had sworn to cooperate with the U.S.

In 1801, Jefferson told James Monroe of his vision for a totalizing and universal Americanism, calling it "impossible not to look forward to distant times, when our rapid multiplication will expand itself beyond those limits, & cover the whole Northern, if not the Southern continent with a people speaking the same language, governed in similar forms, & by similar laws." The United States established an extensive network of formal representatives in the Mediterranean, with American consuls and Navy personnel stationed in more than a dozen cities. Jefferson also negotiated the Louisiana Purchase of 1803, which brought a swath of 828,000 square miles of land, with all the diverse peoples living on it, into the United States. In an instant, the country's territory had doubled.

Kupchan not only ignores the Founders' messianic globalism but claims that isolationism held sway throughout the 19th century. He overlooks the exceptionally aggressive ideas of Abraham Lincoln, who shared the Founders' interpretation of natural rights as a doctrine of imperial obligation. As the historian John Patrick Diggins has put it, Lincoln treated the claim "all men are created equal" as "a moral imperative rather than as a scientific postulate." The conquest, occupation, and reconstruction of the defeated Confederate states followed this line of thinking.

For Kupchan, the first "notable departure" from isolationist thought was the Spanish-American War. He acknowledges that the term isolationist was coined during this period by the war's proponents as a slur against anti-imperialists. It implied that those who opposed the conquest and colonization of foreign lands and the "march of American civilization" were blinkered, anti-modern curmudgeons.

Kupchan's second "departure" was Woodrow Wilson's campaign to send hundreds of thousands of young Americans to fight and die in Europe. After that, Kupchan says, the U.S. entered a period of "naive" "abdication" of the duty to protect the world from Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany. Leaving aside questions about whether either regime possessed the desire or ability to expand beyond its geographical region, we know that most ordinary Americans during the notorious "isolationist era" of the 1920s and 1930s were interested in shielding themselves from war, not the world.

Opinion polls conducted in the 1930s did show that a majority of Americans opposed military interventions abroad. But when they were allowed, Americans voted overwhelmingly—with their wallets and their feet—for engagement with the world through trade and travel. Despite tariffs on a range of foreign goods, the total value of merchandise imports into the U.S. rose steadily through the 1920s. The number of U.S. visitors to Europe jumped from roughly 15,000 in 1912 to 251,000 in 1929. That same year, 8,500 Americans traveled to Japan, more than ever before. After the devastating Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act was repealed in 1934, imports rose rapidly, despite the global Depression.

Kupchan concedes that in the period between the end of the Second World War and the rise of Donald Trump, isolationism became an epithet as the United States established itself as the most powerful global empire in human history. Trump questioned wars of choice, regime changes, nation building, and the very idea that America is obliged to oversee the world, though he didn't follow through on any of these ideas. American troops still remain in Afghanistan and Iraq, and none of the 800 military bases in foreign countries that he inherited has been closed. Nonetheless, Kupchan wrote this book to counter what he sees as a Trumpian threat to the internationalist order.

Kupchan believes he's offering a warning: He fears that an overly aggressive set of foreign policies has pushed ordinary Americans and some in the political class to follow Trump in abandoning America's role as the world's hegemon. Kupchan wants the U.S. to reduce much of its military presence in the Middle East, where he considers the policies of recent presidents to be acts of "overreach," but he wants to remain the dominant power in Europe and globally. A little bit of isolationism, judiciously applied, will save American internationalism: "An informed, cautious, and selective pullback is far preferable to a precipitous retreat."

Nothing in U.S. history suggests that ordinary Americans are isolationists—but nothing suggests they've embraced international adventurism either. The fact that the federal government needed to rely on conscription to fight each major war from the Civil War to Vietnam, and is now relying on aerial bombing and small Special Forces operations rather than drafted soldiers to do most of its killing in foreign lands, suggests that it is only the political class that stands between us and a new, unplanned and ungoverned world order.

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    1. “The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.”

      For decades, they asked the American taxpayer to spend more and do more for the global elites than any other country on Earth while being treated as though they should be grateful for the “service” of Hillary ($2 billion from service), Obama ($70 million from his service), Gore ($200 million off his service).

      And then there’s Trump (from CNN): “In 2016, Trump was worth $3.7 billion, according to Forbes. That dropped to $3.1 billion in 2017 and held there for 2018 and 2019. But this year Trump’s net worth dropped to $2.5 billion. That $600 million decline led Trump to drop from the 275th richest person in America in 2019 to the 352nd richest in 2020 — a drop of 77 spots.

      He lost over a billion dollars while being President, but listen to the media stories about him and the glowing stories about Hillary and you know all you need to know about stupidity.

      Now the global elites are HAPPY. Because we have Dementia Joe at the helm, ready to make being an oligarch fun again.

      1. I’ve said it before. Trump and Brexit were the ordinary peoples revolution against the internationalist Davos class.
        Joe Biden and the frauding of the election was a counter-coup by that class.

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      2. Wait, woah, woah. Are you trying to sell the story line that Trump’s businesses lost money because he was sacrificing his interests for the good of the country, because he was working so hard at President-ing?

        Are we simultaneously supposed to buy his own narrative that he is a business genius?

        1. A business genius who wasn’t around to run his business? Yes.

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        2. That’s missing the point. The point is that a Biden presidency signals a return to the globalist-favored warmongering-interventionist policies of the Bush/Clinton/Obama era and away from the inconvenience of an unreliable Trump.

          Who gives a shit about Trump’s businesses? (Other than to mention that, over the decades, his businesses created tens if not hundreds of thousands of jobs for Americans — including for undocumented workers — while Clinton-Obama-Bust destroyed American jobs.)

          1. WK would rather politicians get rich in office. That is his complaint.

            1. She’s a consistent supporter of Top Men.

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            2. Actually, my criticism was of a Trump fan trying to advance a narrative that Trump is sacrificing himself selflessly for us.

              1. Such a tedious twat you are.

              2. Lol. My narrative was not that Trump was “sacrificing himself selflessly for us.” My point was that the “good guys” who care so very much when “folks are hurting” are in reality the ones who go into politics to get rich, be worshipped, and act like they are saints while they fawn on each other and give each other Nobel prizes for doing nothing.

                At least Trump is a real, live obnoxious person who isn’t a giant ass phony.

                1. Dee has TDS, so she will consistently misunderstand what anyone is saying when discussing Trump.

                  I mean, she’s pretty dumb about understanding things in general, but it’s worse with Trump.

          2. Perhaps, I wasn’t addressing the main point. I’ll concede that. I was focusing in on the “Trump is selflessly sacrificing for us” narrative.

            1. Riding in on your noble charger, to save us all from the realization that maybe Trump isn’t actually the demiurge.

              1. Maybe you, personally, don’t need reminding. Others do:

                https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1342872502306009089?s=20

                (Including Trump, himself.)

                1. I think you’re confusing messianism with the demiurge.

                  Messianism runs deep in American politics, but that’s just a small taste compared to what you guys did with Obama. Even the left was self aware about it.
                  https://www.politico.com/story/2007/12/messianic-rhetoric-infuses-obama-rallies-007281

        3. LOL. If Trump’s a “business genius” I’m the second coming of Jesus Christ.

          1. How many buildings have your name in them?

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  2. The problem is our political class is ambitious and they must leave their mark upon the world, for they are the anointed of the Lord to be men of destiny, to do great things. Who wants to be a humble public servant when you can be a master and commander?

    “Let me have men about me that are fat,
    Sleek-headed men and such as sleep a-nights.
    Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look,
    He thinks too much; such men are dangerous.”

    We need more fat politicians, the kind who are easily sated by a little of the usual corruption rather than the incorruptible sort who have Big Ideas. God save us from Big Ideas.

    1. The United States is a Big Idea (see the DOI).

      1. But a Big Idea based on the principal of minding one’s own business – a new thought in most ages!

    2. The irony being that the Catonians, and the Senators who assassinated Caesar, were the worst kind of corrupt plutocrats you could imagine. They didn’t fear Caesar because he was a tyrant, they feared him because of his popularity among the plebians. They’d spent decades, if not hundreds of years, building and nurturing their sinecures, and Caesar was a direct threat to that because of his influence.

      Augustus ultimately triumphed not just because he had a great military commander in Marcus Agrippa, but because he was one of the greatest politicians in the history of the Western world, and knew how to manipulate the people AND the Senate into bending to his will, without them fearing his ambition enough to launch a coup.

  3. “It is not unusual for intellectuals who study U.S. history to conflate the views of political leaders with those of all Americans.”

    Ya think?

    1. Good point! However, human affairs being complex as usual, there ARE time when the political leaders can accurately be conflated with those of MANY Americans (if not all Americans).

      Case in point: Many Americans right now STILL believe, as does our Great Whitish-Orangish Pumpkin-Father, that just because we can pussy-grab others, at SOME times, and they (the pussies-grabbed) also SOMETIMES do NOT manage to pussy-grab us right back, then… Then pussy-grabbing those others, for our benefit, makes general “good policy”, to be engaged in at all times!

      1. Sorry that you’re not grabbing enough pussy. Perhaps it has something to do with your personality.

        1. In my household, we are the “companion humans” to two “companion pussy-cats”, and we have the maturity and general benevolence to not GRAB them, hardly ever, except when they need to go to the vet, take their meds, be bathed, etc. It also helps us not get bitten or scratched quite so often! (I hang my head in shame and admit I am wearing a recently-torn, otherwise-perfectly-good shirt, because I recently didn’t listen to my own good advice, with regards to an outdoor pussy-cat who hangs out around here and mooches food).

          1. I should have assumed you were a cat person. Do you eat the cat poo right out of the litter box, or do you rinse off the cat litter before you eat it?

      2. Which is worse? Talking privately to a dude about your pussy grabbing ideas or smelling a young girl’s hair for a really long time while she winces on live video? I don’t like the word pussy, so I choose the first one, but I could be wrong. I do know that only one involved a nationwide march of hundreds of thousands of women wearing crocheted vagina hats paid for by Soros.

        1. I’d rather have less Government Almighty all around… Just enough to secure our rights against despots domestic and foreign, and then no more.

          That said, I would rather be subjected to the depredations of a Hair Smeller in Chief, than a Pussy Grabber in Chief!

          1. I think I will take my chances with the pussy grabber. Because as an adult I have a few more options than a 12 year old forever memorialized by a hair sniffer…but it’s not an easy choice.

          2. The disciple of wapo and the atlantic says he is for less government as he cheers on Biden. Lol.

    2. Its probably more usual for intellectuals to conflate their own views with the leaders and people they consider right-thinking, and with the way the world should be.

  4. Thank goodness France circa 1776 didn’t believe in isolationism…

    1. Good point! From the perspective of most people in the USA, that is, although “alternate history” is totally unknowable. “Harry TurtleDove” fiction is just that… Purely fiction.

      From the French perspectives (think victims of the savage French Revolution’s excesses), “France circa 1776” might not look so good. Here were French peasants, being (sometimes literally) starved to death by WAAAY high taxes! To pay for freedoms from Tyranny… For foreigners (Americans)! French peasants taxed (by un-elected royalty) to pay for a war to free foreigners (Americans) from un-elected royalty! Their freedom matters FAR more than MY freedoms, French peasants might think!

      That’s how I feel about my tax money getting spent to bring “freedom” to Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, African nations, etc., when I live in the ONLY nation on the planet that makes me get PERMISSION to blow upon a certain cheap plastic “lung flute”, AKA, dangerous medical implement of death and destruction! Can we bring the troops home, please, to fight against, and secure our freedoms from, the tyrants at the FDA? Freedoms for Americans FIRST! Freedoms for foreigners SECOND!

      To find precise details on what NOT to do, to avoid the flute police, please see http://www.churchofsqrls.com/DONT_DO_THIS/ … This has been a pubic service, courtesy of the Church of SQRLS!

      1. You’re of course not in the position that French peasants were then.

        1. I’m paying for military troops to bring freedom to foreigners, where the foreigners have more freedoms, in certain categories, that I (the payer of taxes for THEIR “freedoms”) do! Other than standards of living world-wide having gone up in the meantime, same difference!

          1. You live in the most free state ever.

            1. Freedom isn’t one-dimensional. As I understand, for example, Burma (Myanmar) has little political freedom lately (recent decades), but, has for a LONG time, had a LOT more medical freedoms than we do here! MANY drugs that we can’t get without a prescription, they can get w/o one! Same is true in Mexico I think.

              “Freedom” (as with many things) depends on who is doing the measuring, based on what criteria. Grab one at random here…

              https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-new

              From there…

              The jurisdictions that took the top 10 places, in order, were New Zealand, Switzerland, Hong Kong, Denmark, Australia, Canada, Ireland, Estonia, and Germany and Sweden (tied in 9th place). Selected countries rank as follows: Japan (11), the United Kingdom and the United States (tied in 17th place), Taiwan (19), South Korea (26), Chile (30), France (33), South Africa (68), Argentina (70), Mexico (86), Brazil (88), Kenya (93), India (111), Russia (115), Turkey (119), China (129), Saudi Arabia (151), Egypt (157), Iran (158), Venezuela (160), and Syria (162).

              1. Freedom isn’t free. No there a heafty fuckin fee, and if you don’t pitch in your buck o five who will

                1. Fuck Yeah!

            2. Here’s another FYI…

              https://rsf.org/en/ranking_table
              Data of press freedom ranking 2020

              USA #45!!! Hooray!!! USA #45!!! Hooray!!!

              Here’s to hoping that we can claw our way up to be #44 or better!

              1. Why in America I am free to….can’t really think of anything much.

              2. Democratic group rates socialist countries higher. Lol.

            3. We live in the state with the largest and most expensive government in human history.

    2. The British wouldn’t have held a separatist America regardless of French assistance.
      Fighting fellow “Englishmen” wasn’t the same thing for them as battling the Hottentots, stomping popish Irishmen or pushing drugs in China. Their hearts weren’t in it.

      1. That’s doubtful. British could have held the major cities and ports for a very long time but not the countryside. We’d probably be living in some sort of Canada situation today. I wonder how the Great War would have ended up had the U.S. entered the war, as did Canada, in 1914? Germany may never had attacked in the first place.

        1. The British couldn’t have held the cities for long. I think that worst case scenario they would have capitulated to creating regional lower parliaments.
          You have to remember that Britain viewed the American and Canadian colonies as they did Scotland and Wales, as part of the nation. We weren’t “conquered” foreign lands like the Indian subcontinent.
          This is why American independence was so damaging to the British national psyche.

    3. France and England had just wrapped up a major war with each other. They weren’t exactly allies.

    4. True. They did believe in fighting a proxy war against England, though.

  5. Honestly sometimes I still think we’re being manipulated by the damn British. Make the world England and use American muscle to do it.

    Anyway our sabre rattling and defense expenditures are nothing compared to our welfare state. That is our undoing.

    1. But, as often revealed in polls, populists on the left and right KNOW the money we waste in overseas meddling, funding either defense or foreign aid, is HUGE. And if we cut that we could afford all kinds of domestic program expansions.

      1. Do you really think that the powers that be are spending that money out of some insistent wokeness? That money benefits powerful American interests or it wouldn’t be spent. I mean, there’s reasons to oppose foreign aid, but that it’s not effective in achieving anything is not one of them.

    2. I can VERY easily think of humans driven extinct (and life at large on the planet ravaged) by nuclear war, as a result of “sabre (sic saber) rattling and defense expenditures”. What holocaust do you envision as possibly resulting from too much welfarism, that can compare to that?

      1. Mass rebellion and disorder? The Romans powers that were didn’t provide bread and circuses because they were feeling generous. If you ended all ‘welfarism’ today we’d have the equivalent of the French Revolution tomorrow. This is why many people rightly say FDR saved capitalism.

        1. “Sometimes Bad Is Bad” was slamming the welfare state, not envisioning what bad things could happen for the lack of it. Typical conservative… What gets lost as usual here, is how much poverty is the RESULT of too much government meddling! Too many in prisons for victimless crimes, and WAAAAY too many licenses needed before you can make an honest living, and needing permission from a proctologist before you can scratch your own bottom, etc.!

          1. I’m quite opposed to imprisoning people for victimless crimes and the spread of restrictive licensing laws. That has little to do with the ‘welfare state.’ Unless you are old, a veteran or a mother there’s not much welfare state to speak of here in the US.

            1. Piss off Jeff.
              Libertarianism isn’t solely about being cool with the way that sex and drugs works for the American upper-middle class elite.
              Shilling for military adventurism and the welfare state means you’re definitely not libertarian.

              1. “Libertarianism isn’t solely about being cool with the way that sex and drugs works for the American upper-middle class elite.”

                It’s not? Oh. Do you know of one that is? Asking for a friend.

                1. No, it’s not solely about that.
                  You’re looking for libertinism, not libertarianism. The words sound similar but the concepts are not.

                  1. There is some connection between the two, though. As libertarianism allows for the possibility of an individual choosing to live a libertine lifestyle without government persecution for doing so.

                    1. Yes, libertinism is permitted under libertarianism, as is hedonism. But libertarianism isn’t libertinism or hedonism, nor is it beholding to them.

                  2. Aha.

                    Sense of humor have you not?

              2. LOL, if Mother’s Lament was walking down a Canadian sidewalk, angrily ranting at a person who isn’t even there, we’d assume he has schizophrenia, but here it’s just called Sunday.

                1. Did you even read what he wrote?

                  Tell me WK, do you agree with his advocacy for the welfare state?
                  “If you ended all ‘welfarism’ today we’d have the equivalent of the French Revolution tomorrow. This is why many people rightly say FDR saved capitalism.”

                  Or with his intimation that food stamps, medicare, CHIP, TANF, SSI, housing assistance and the other 80-plus federal welfare programs amounting to $1.3 trillion annually aren’t real and because “there’s not much welfare state to speak of here in the US”?

                  You’re such a kneejerk troll. You saw my name and had to ride in a save poor Jeff, without even reading the garbage he wrote.

                  1. Jeff isn’t here. Hasn’t posted here in at least a week.

                    1. Lol. He socks more than you sweetie.

                    2. He’s already posted a dozen times in this very thread. He’s pretty obvious despite using multiple socks.

                2. The xenophobe is back.

                  1. Canadian sidewalks are apparently special and noteworthy to WK.

                    1. Nah, it was just a little bit of color. Like when Donald Fagen wrote “Spandex jackets for everyone” instead of “jackets for everyone”.

                    2. A spandex jacket is notably different from a cotton, rayon or wool jacket. How is a “Canadian” sidewalk different from those south of the border?

                      Admit it. You were making a cheap attempt to try and deminish me by referencing my nationality as something other than American.

          2. You support the GND through biden. You ignored obamas lack of energy exports. Cheap energy lifted more out of poverty than any poverty program ever did. You are ignorant to basic reality.

            1. You are part of the anti-Trump Alliance, and a traitor! Take SQRLSY One away!

    3. at least the welfare state helps people

  6. Either Kupchan’s book failed to mention how Donald Trump has ended (and has worked to end) foreign entanglements of previous presidents, or Russell didn’t mention it in his article to appease the anti Trump financier and editors at Reason.

    Despite his flaws, Trump has been the most libertarian president since Cal Coolidge.

    1. A sea horse is not a horse but it does kinda look like one.

      1. If it looks like a horse, walks like a horse, and neighs like a horse, then it probably is a horse.

        Name a more libertarian president in the last 90 years.

        1. None of the above.

          1. Name a more “libertarian” president then

        2. “Name a more libertarian president in the last 90 years.”

          Jimmy Carter… He helped deregulate the airlines, trucking, and more. He started no trade wars or shooting wars. He didn’t scapegoat immigrants. Despite CLEAR provocation by the Iranians holding diplomats hostage… A legit cause for war, as understood for thousands of years… He did NOT get a huge “war boner”, even over that! … So Jimmy Carter… By no means any kind of super-effective “by-the-book” libertarian, but certainly more so than Der TrumpfenFuhrer!

          Also, unlike Reagan who followed him, Carter didn’t have a huge “drug war boner” either…

          1. Trump leads Carter 10 to 1 in deregulatory measures, but more importantly, while Carter didn’t start wars, he didn’t end any either, nor did he try.
            Trump signed a peace agreement with the Taliban in February, ending a twenty year war. He was the first president ever to try and end the seventy-year-old Korean War and negotiate directly with DPRK leadership.

            Oh, and Jeff and Sqrls, a question for you both.
            Trump’s withdrawal of troops from Germany and Afghanistan is being stymied by the Democrats who passed an amendment making it illegal in July.
            Do you both support the Democrats attempts to stop Trump from withdrawing the troops?

            1. “He was the first president ever to try and end the seventy-year-old Korean War and negotiate directly with DPRK leadership.”

              I like how Trump fans give him partial credit for things he made half assed attempts at, then abandoned.

              1. I find it astonishing that even a purported libertarian would dismiss any attempts at rapprochement and efforts to end an eighty year war, let alone the first real ones.

                As for “abandoning”, the negotiations are still ongoing this year. If you didn’t just watch CNN you may have known that.

                1. Trump worshipers love to give him partial credit for his half-assed efforts at Presidenting. When you throw your lot in with a childish, mercurial moron I guess handing out As for effort is all you can do.

                  1. Biden worshippers seek to not give him any credit. Remember how you claim the Abraham accords are a big nothing?

                    1. I don’t believe I used the words, “big nothing”. What I actually said is that Trump worshipers make them out to be more of an achievement than they are.

                    2. No you blew them off, just like you blew off the rapprochement attempts.
                      Because for you orangemanbad and shaking your fist at the deplorables is far more important than any peace process attempts.

                    3. Sorry, I don’t worship Trump like I am supposed to.

                    4. No, you worship whatever the DNC throws up; because despite your protestations to the contrary, you’re an blatantly obvious party shill.

                  2. Trump worshipers love to give him partial credit for his half-assed efforts at Presidenting

                    He got 3 Muslim countries to sign peace treaties with Israel. That is better than anything Obama, Bush, or Reagan did. Carter did get Egypt to recognize Israel.

              2. How about you answer the question, White Knight.

                Trump’s withdrawal of troops from Germany and Afghanistan is being stymied by the Democrats who passed an amendment making it illegal in July.
                Do you both support the Democrats attempts to stop Trump from withdrawing the troops?

                1. No, I don’t support them.

              3. “…I like how Trump fans give him partial credit for things he made half assed attempts at, then abandoned…”

                I like how TDS-infected shits make up stories to support their TDS, TDS-infected shit.

                1. Oh, so we HAVE gotten out of Iraq and Afghanistan, huh, Sevo? Wow, I must’ve missed that! Thanks for telling me, brah!

            2. I support any and every political party who supports gradually (in an orderly manner) withdrawing American (tax-paid troops, excluding mercenaries who, of their own free will, want to work for USA-friendly nations) troops from ALL non-American soil! Full stop!

              (Trump just moved troops form here to there, for the most part, and has NOT moved, in a serious over-all manner, towards bringing them ALL home. ALSO, Trump is now giving amnesty to convicted USA war criminals!).

              https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/12/trump-kicks-off-pardoning-spree-by-granting-mercy-to-convicted-war-criminals
              TRUMP KICKS OFF PARDONING SPREE BY GRANTING MERCY TO CONVICTED WAR CRIMINALS

              HEY MAMMA… Does the above help you welcome American troops to Canada, to bring you “freedom”?

              1. You didn’t answer my question, Sqrls.

                Trump’s withdrawal of troops from Germany and Afghanistan is being stymied by the Democrats who passed an amendment making it illegal in July.
                Do you support the Democrats attempts to stop Trump from withdrawing the troops?

                You don’t need fifty lines, a yes or no will be fine.

                1. “I support any and every political party who supports …”

                  That means I support Trump in his STATED objectives of drawing down USA war powers overseas, and oppose Democrats who want to get in his way. Trump’s actual ACTIONS on the ground belie his noble words, though, frequently!

                  I read Reason mag hardcopy… The most recent issue (can’t find it on-line yet) shows that war-mongers in the Trump admin war-mongered enough to get USA troops in Syria move in for a local “oil grab” there, an unwise move, and contrary to the wishes of the locals, and of the wishes of the Kurds. This kinda shit just props up “Americans are just here for our oil.”

                  Democrats ain’t no saints, either… See https://reason.com/2020/11/24/joe-bidens-secretary-of-state-pick-has-been-an-avid-backer-of-american-military-intervention/

                  1. That means I support Trump in his STATED objectives of drawing down USA war powers overseas, and oppose Democrats who want to get in his way.

                    Good. I’m glad to hear it.

                    1. Sounds like time for Smedley Butler Quotes…
                      There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights.
                      War is a racket. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.
                      War is just a racket… I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else.

                      “I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”
                      ― Smedley D. Butler, War is a Racket: The Antiwar Classic by America’s Most Decorated Soldier

                    2. “Sounds like time for Smedley Butler Quotes…”

                      Fucking ex-marine running for public office on a populist platform; every bit the loser that spaz here is.

                  2. A relevant read here…

                    https://www.newsweek.com/trump-syria-oil-fears-us-policies-1471848
                    Donald Trump’s Oil Moves in Syria Play Into Old Fears of U.S. Policy in Middle East
                    BY TOM O’CONNOR AND JAMES LAPORTA ON 11/15/19

                  3. God. When did sqrsly become a trump cultist. I mean thats what he calls anyone who agrees with a single policy of his, even in this thread.

            3. Carter started both the DoE and DoEd. Fuck him. He wasn’t libertarian. He believed in Central planning.

              1. You are absolutely correct. The only claim being made is that he was more libertarian than any other President.

                It’s kinda funny how you have to turn every speculative conversation into a “fuck you” death match. Can’t be good for your blood pressure. You, Nardz, and several other of the Trump fans could stand to mellow out a bit.

                1. “You are absolutely correct. The only claim being made is that he was more libertarian than any other President.”

                  Which you’ve failed to support, TDS-infected shit.

          2. Yeah, Carter was my answer, too.

            The rare decent human being in high office.

            1. Every globalist seems to have a gard on for the guy who started 2 of the worst federal departments. Weird.

              1. You are totally correct. Carter was by no means a libertarian in every aspect of his Presidency.

                Conversations like these used to be the kind that were enjoyable here in the commentariat before it was invaded by fanatical, angry Trump fans like you.

          3. Even after leaving office, Carter has done as much or more for world peace than Trump.

            1. He did negotiate the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt. That was good.

              1. Yes it was.

                And what about the peace treaties between Israel and the UAE, Bahrain, Morocco and Sudan, or Serbia and Kosovo? Do you feel that those are a good thing too?

                1. Yup that was good. Israel was never actually at war with those places but having formal and friendly relations is a big deal.

                2. I don’t think it makes either one of them in any way libertarian though.

                3. Wk already said those were a big nothing.

                  1. Well they are very good. Kushner started working on that as soon as Trump got in and finally succeeded. They finally figured out that there was no getting anywhere with the Palestinians and bypassed them.

                    The gulf Arabs wanted weapons which is good in terms of Iran and not a threat to Israel. They have no problem doing business with the Hebrews. Morocco for centuries had a Jewish population coexisting there. Everyone has lost patience with the Palestinians.

                    So good job on this.

                    1. Let’s recap:
                      – Sold out the Palestinians.
                      – Selling more weapons to Middle Eastern muslims.
                      – Normalized relations between countries that were already peaceful with each other.
                      So, sort of an accomplishment, but one that came at a price and is trumped up too much by Trump fans.

                    2. – Sold out the Palestinians.
                      No. Nobody did. This is about Israel, the UAE, Bahrain, Morocco and Sudan. Why do you think the Palestinians were “sold out” by peace?
                      You’re not even making sense.

                      – Selling more weapons to Middle Eastern muslims.
                      You just spent four years calling everyone “racist” against Muslims, and now they can’t purchase from American companies because they’re Muslim?
                      Did you even think before pounding this out?

                      – Normalized relations between countries that were already peaceful with each other.
                      You’re so amazingly dishonest. Peaceful countries don’t have laws on the books stating that they’re “in a state of war with the Zionist entity”.

                      Why do you lie so much? You’re obviously not good at it.

                    3. “You just spent four years calling everyone “racist” against Muslims”

                      I did? Is this one of your vague “you”’s that includes not just things I have said, but things my supposed sock puppets have said?

                      Regardless, I’m taking about selling weapons to theocratic nations, not individual Muslims.

                    4. “Peaceful countries don’t have laws on the books stating that they’re ‘in a state of war with the Zionist entity’.”

                      Countries that are truly at war with the Zionist entity actually do war-like stuff and don’t have their own well-treated Jewish communities.

                    5. The White Knight
                      December.27.2020 at 4:04 pm
                      “Let’s recap:..”

                      Yes, lets:
                      You.
                      Are.
                      STILL.
                      Full.
                      Of.
                      Shit.

                    6. “Countries that are truly at war with the Zionist entity actually do war-like stuff and don’t have their own well-treated Jewish communities”

                      Yes, please do tell me all about how “well treated” the Gulf state Jews were in 1947 and again after the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.

                    7. Or the Sudanese Jews.

                      In 1967, anti-semitic attacks began to appear in Sudanese newspapers following the Six-Day War, advocating the torture and murder of prominent Jewish community leaders.[251] By 1970 almost all of the Sudanese Jewish community had left the country.

                      Wonderful treatment there too. Almost as good as the Gulf States.

                    8. WK – “B-b-b-b-but Morocco”

                      Okay, let’s have a look;

                      “In June 1948, soon after Israel was established and in the midst of the first Arab–Israeli war, violent anti-Jewish riots broke out in Oujda and Djerada… n August 1953, riots broke out in the city of Oujda and resulted in the death of 4 Jews including an 11-year-old girl.[55] In the same month French security forces prevented a mob from breaking into the Jewish Mellah of Rabat.[55] In 1954, a nationalist event in the town of Petitjean (known today as Sidi Kacem) turned into an anti-Jewish riot and resulted in the death of 6 Jewish merchants from Marrakesh… In 1955, a mob broke into the Jewish Mellah in Mazagan (known today as El Jadida) and caused its 1700 Jewish residents to flee to the European quarters of the city. The houses of some 200 Jews were too badly damaged during the riots for them to return… Between 1956 and 1961, emigration to Israel was prohibited by law;[59] clandestine emigration continued, and a further 18,000 Jews left Morocco… By 1967, only 50,000 Jews remained.[72] The 1967 Six-Day War led to increased Arab–Jewish tensions worldwide, including in Morocco, and significant Jewish emigration out of the country continued. By the early 1970s, the Jewish population of Morocco fell to 25,000… in 1948, over 250,000[74]–265,000[75] Jews lived in Morocco. By 2001 an estimated 5,230 remained”
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries#Morocco

                      Hot damn, White Knight, that’s som real pEaCeFuL cOeXiSTenCe.

                      See, this is the problem with you being so historically ignorant. You embarrass yourself in debates.

          4. Iran took hostages because of Carters actions and his attempt to rescue them was a complete military failure. That though was a failure by the generals in charge. What a cluster fuck. Carter also f’d up several negotiations with n korea totally interfering with President Clintons negotiations without permission

          5. Lol. Sqrsly is chipper. All tbe cosplay globalists think the same ignorant bullshit.

        3. Chipper thinks Carter was. Not even joking.

          1. There is really no such thing. You can pick any president and find a few things libertarians would agree with but that is just coincidence.

    2. Kupchan’s book failed to mention how Donald Trump has ended (and has worked to end) foreign entanglements of previous presidents

      It sounds like he mentions it plenty. Apparently ending American foreign entanglements petrifies Kupchan:

      …[H]e fears that an overly aggressive set of foreign policies has pushed ordinary Americans and some in the political class to follow Trump in abandoning America’s role as the world’s hegemon.

      The United States having a defense budget that is essentially the size of the rest of the world equals abandoning our moral obligation to hegemony.

      1. Half the yearly budget is for troop pay, housing, and medical. Now normalize the data.

        1. Well the more troops and stuff you have the more you have to pay for all of that. What if we had a leaner meaner force. Keep the qualitative edge but smaller numbers.

          Build ships, planes, tanks, and the other goodies but less of them and fewer troops. That keeps production and development going if we need to upscale.

          We need a defense force. This is way more than we need for that.

    3. Yeah, Trump has really fixed those Iran and Korea quagmires.

      1. Lol, you’re so disingenuous.
        Tell me what president in the last eighty years did more to try and end the Korean war?

        “quagmires”
        And is America currently at war, or has it ever been at war with Iran? Does it have troops on Iranian soil? Aside from Carter’s failed helicopter hostage rescue, when has the US had military in Iran uninvited? Remember, every hostile interaction with Iran has occurred outside of Iran. Explain to me how it’s a quagmire.

        1. Trump stopped trying when he ran into difficulty, and just lost interest.

          1. Remember when John Kerry said normalization between Israel and muslim nations was impossible and you dismissed all normalization Trump has helped with? You’d prefer to keep funding Iran’s nuclear program for some reason.

            1. Actually, I don’t remember Kerry saying that, but I’ll take your word for it.

              My guess is he probably meant it was impossible without throwing the Palestinians under the bus.

              1. “…My guess is he probably meant it was impossible without throwing the Palestinians under the bus…”

                Given that you’re full of shit, your guess if that of a full-of-shit person.

              2. https://www.jpost.com/american-politics/why-john-kerry-and-others-were-wrong-about-peace-and-israel-analysis-642643

                Also, explain how the Arab countries threw the Palestinians “under the bus” by making peace, you demagogic warpig.

          2. But they’re still negotiating right now. Just because you haven’t heard Maddow bitching about it lately, doesn’t mean nothing is happening.

            1. Maddow is Rachel Maddow, right? I think I heard her radio show or something. Once.

              1. *rolleyes*

        2. It is because we have to maintain a large military presence there which is very active and dangerous. Also the Iranians are enriching more uranium and continuing the missile programs.

          There may not be much anyone could have done about that. This has been going on since at least the Iran Iraq war.

          Korea, well nobody has had much success there either but I would not call any of what happened a success. We got suckered on that one.

          So those are just plus minus as far as I am concerned.

          1. “…There may not be much anyone could have done about that. This has been going on since at least the Iran Iraq war…”

            Maybe not, but Obo shoveling box-cars of cash to them didn’t help matters.

        3. In answer to your question we are about as close to war with Iran as you can get as anybody at Centcom or the fifth fleet could tell you.

          More ships heading there now.

          https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2020/12/21/the-us-navy-is-surging-a-lot-of-firepower-into-the-persian-gulf-and-its-not-clear-why/?sh=6223e6aa2c91

          1. Is this a close as when Trump started World War Three back in January?
            https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2020/01/07/are-we-on-the-edge-of-world-war-iii.html

      2. raising the bar a bit. amazing there was any mess left to clean up after Obama.

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  11. https://twitter.com/PolitiKurd/status/1343198831287169024?s=19

    Thank goodness they’re not doing this in a church bc that would be dangerous

    1. https://twitter.com/ElijahSchaffer/status/1343013506594054144?s=19

      Someone please relieve these front line workers, can’t you see how difficult it’s been?

      1. Are you crazy?! This was a beautiful video of a beautiful moment of humans coming together, joining forces and joining hearts, and overcoming difficulties in times of hardship. Perhaps you have no heart? Perhaps you hate happiness? Or have no ability to process abstract metaphor/dance? Either way, thank you for sharing this astounding video, I’m teary-eyed and ready to face my day head on now. Even though I find you detestable as a person, you unintentionally did a good thing today and for that I am ever grateful.

        1. Amen brother. I’m going to share that one. Thank you for spreading the joy and hope Nardz. ב״ה

          1. Lol, I told you that you’re flying to close to Poe’s Law with your Enlightened Atheist bit. You just got an “attaboy” from Jeff.

            1. It really is a nice video. Did you see it?

              1. I’m 100% fine with what they’re doing, but I don’t want to hear one word about churches, or social distancing or Christmas parties from anyone who ❤ and shared the videos.

              2. Fuckin’ LOL at these “tired,” “frontline workers” doing this bullshit on a Chinese government spyware app, and you clapping along to it like a trained seal.

            2. I don’t think it is what Nardz had in mind when he posted it.

              1. No, just pointing out your disingenuous nature as you bitch about “overwhelming the hospitals” and the “hErOeS” on the front line to justify destroying the lives of people who run small businesses.

                We’re about fucking fed up with you parasitic pieces of shit.

  12. https://twitter.com/Timcast/status/1343186369443733506?s=19

    “No Evidence”

    Right away you know he’s full of it
    There is evidence, in fact quite a bit

    I have personally corroborated some of it and I still think Biden will be president on the 20th

    Adam can’t admit to any evidence because that would require an inquiry

    1. Do you have a non-political hobby you can engage in? Maybe go to the park today, or play catch with your kid? You need to let it go.

  13. I recall an interview with Harry Browne when he was running and he was asked about foreign affairs. He said something like “I’ve had a few of those. They were fantastic”.

    1. https://twitter.com/Wizard_Predicts/status/1343185993462140928?s=19

      Big shoutout to all the small businesses destroyed by the lockdowns.

    2. https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1343191835926257665?s=19

      If you can, please listen to this amazing Red Scare interview with NYU Professor @mcrispinmiller, now being formally investigated by NYU with threats of firing because — in a class on **propaganda**! — he encouraged students to review the conflicting messaging on mask-wearing:

      I hope this will be made available to non-subscribers. The story is amazing. *One student* in the class whined on Twitter that she was upset by his teachings on COVID propaganda, and so the University apologized to her & assured her he’d be investigated:

      You’ll be unsurprised to learn that the @ACLU hasn’t weighed in despite its being at NYU, but the always-principled and apolitical @TheFIREorg has, warning that these formal investigations pose a grave threat to academic freedom:

      Miller has expressed views that I don’t like or agree with. He deviates from orthodoxies. But that’s the point of tenure! Like free speech, tenure isn’t needed for NYT-reading, NPR-listening mavens of mainstream pieties who fill faculty lounges. It’s for people like Miller.

      The witch hunt against Professor Miller was started by a few petulant students but now, unsurprisingly, is being led by liberal NYU Professors who think scholars should be fired for not parroting their trite agitprop. More info here, with a fundraiser:

  14. https://twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/1343092720710148096?s=19

    Do people know how infuriating this is to Cuban Americans? Fidel and his men killed innocent Cubans, stole everything from our families and threw all of the Cubans brave enough to dissent into jail for opposing his “revolution”. Raphael Warnock had his church celebrate him.

  15. For Kupchan, the first “notable departure” from isolationist thought was the Spanish-American War.

    Given the Monroe Doctrine predated the Spanish-American War by 75 years and was very clear articulation of our “interest” in Cuba in the first place, I think Kupchan can be safely ignored as an “intellect” on the subject.

    Nonetheless, Kupchan wrote this book to counter what he sees as a Trumpian threat to the internationalist order.

    Confirmed.

    1. Invasion of Canada, War of 1812?
      Invasion of Mexico 1847?

    2. The most obvious departure was WWI and its aftermath to WWII where it became an article of faith that the USA is responsible for maintaining peace among the great powers instead of merely pursuing its own interests.

    1. Quite the rant.

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    With an impressive length of 100 cm, the Hyacinth Macaw is the largest of all the species of parrots in the world. They live in the open air and the savannah meadows of northern Brazil. Their population has declined in recent years. Today, there are less than 5,000 Hyacinth Macaws in the world. Habitat decline and hunting are major threats to the Hyacinth Macaw.

    In addition to its large size, this species is famous for its striking plumage with bright yellow rings around the eyes. Due to this striking color, it is also called “Macau Blue”. They also have a beautiful long tail and curved black plume.

    With the right training you can become a great pet. To make these parrots feel comfortable, you also need to give them plenty of space. They are very playful animals, but they do not learn words as easily as some other members of this family.

    But beware! No one can guarantee that they will not bite you even with proper care and training. Hyacinth Macaw can also be extremely strong when they are in a team.

    Hyacinth Macaw the largest of all the species parrots in the world.

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  18. Nothing suggests that other than rooting for a guy who’s never seen a foreign war he didn’t like to get elected president.

    1. Most people don’t vote for someone. They vote against the other guy.

      1. Wrong, I voted for Biden and against Trump.

        1. *Chef’s kiss*

        2. For China, Iran, AND against America

        3. That is not surprising; I’m sure you’re hoping for an intellectual equal in the WH, and if slobbering Joe keeps to his current decline, you should get it in a couple of months or so.

      2. I voted for someone. That nice libertarian professor lady.

      3. It’s true though. The other four members of my family voted Biden as anti Trump votes. Three of them had never voted before. The other one had always voted Republican in the past. Oh and LC will be glad to hear that we are moving to Georgia.

        1. You want to die.

        2. Atlanta? Pretty strong Conservative shuls in that area. Chabad is everywhere, of course.

        3. “…The other four members of my family voted Biden as anti Trump votes. Three of them had never voted before. The other one had always voted Republican in the past.”

          Can you spell A N E C D O T E?

      4. “Most people don’t vote for someone. They vote against the other guy.”

        As well-supported as most all of your bullshit: Not at all.

  19. Leave Asia and Europe and Africa and Australia to their own devices.

    Make sure the Western Hemisphere is free and safe. Free Cuba. Oh wait, we’ve tried that. Maybe try peaceful cooperation, get Cuba and Venezuela to adopt free market reforms in exchange for aid.

    1. Ending the War on Drugs would go a long way to cleaning up Latin America too.

      1. Giving more work visas for Central Americans would also help. Most of them send money home which helps the economy and poverty so people can do something about the gangs. Most of them make some money here for a while then go back home.

        Say a five year renewable visa.

        1. Government Almighty BLESS you benevolent-minded people, CE and Echospinner and others! I hope that 2021 will bring good things to humanoids and all other (non-disease-causing) organisms and orgasms worldwide! Especially those who espouse FREEDOM for all!!!

          1. celebrating New Year’s Eve a bit early it seems, but okay

    2. “…get Cuba and Venezuela to adopt free market reforms in exchange for aid.”

      Aw, how cute! Did you get your pony from Santa also?

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  21. Who is Kuchan? CFR? Has the CRF been right on anything?

    Why do I smell a neocon here?

  22. You can’t compromise with totalitarian leftism.
    If anyone meets the people posting as echospinner, white knight, etc, put them in the ground permanently or they will help destroy all your freedoms.

    1. HOW could you leave MEEEE out of your list?!?!? What am I, a less-than-insignificant pest like Tulpa? I resemble that remark!

      So Nadless Nardless the Nasty NAZI… Has it EVER occurred to you, that yin needs yang? Male needs female? And… Wait for it now… “R” party needs “D” party? Maybe even an “L” party too? Or else we have a one-party DICTATORSHIT? That’s what you really want, Nadless Nardless the Nasty NAZI? Have you ever studied a thing called “history”?

      THINK HARD and contemplate the below, ideologically blinded fool!

      For all ideological hard-core warmongers everywhere…

      So ye lust after the utter, eternal destruction of the “D” team, and the eternal victory of the “R” team? (The inverse kind of ideological idiot exists also, but not so much, on these pages).

      “R” team likes to demonize “D” team? Biden is going to outlaw the internal combustion engine, tomorrow, to “Make American Green Again”? The NEW MAGA? Bullshit, demonizers!

      “D” team likes to say that the next “R” POTUS (Alex Jones maybe?) will outlaw ALL abortion, and birth control? And turn ALL women into enslaved baby-making machines, because every sperm is sacred? Bullshit, demonizers!

      All is for The Hive… The Tribe-Nation… Or, All is for the Individual, and you may NOT (of your own supposed “free will”) join a VOLUNTARY commune?! There can be NO compromise, traitors!!!

      The males must UTTERLY DEFEAT the females, who must NEVER speak again!

      Yin must smash Yang, till Yang exists no more!

      Creation must smash destruction! NO eggs may be broken, for making omelets!

      Life must rule over death, and NO ONE may die, to make room for the new living! No matter HOW old and decrepit they get! YOU MAY NOT DIE!!!

      Do you ideological idiots NOT see that “R” v/s “D” falls into the same category? You would destroy it ALL (multi-party democracy, “balance”) in the name of your POWER PIG FANTASIES!!!

      The ONLY way that ye will get your “ultimate victory” is in the DEATH OF IT ALL!!! The new POTUS, Alex Jones, will declare Nuclear War for the Ultimate Victory… And yin and yang, male and female, “D” and “R”, individual v/s tribe… they all ARE NO MORE!!!

      Are you HAPPY now, ideological idiots and power-lusters?!!?

      1. Of course, if the R team ever got rid of the D team, the R team would immediately turn on itself. Oh, wait, we are already seeing the R team turn on itself: Trumpers vs actual conservatives.

    2. That’s awfully close to a straight-up death threat from Nardz. Any of his allies here want to denounce this: Sevo? Mother’s? JesseAz?

      1. I will.

        Stop talking rot, Nardz. We stop them by winning hearts and minds.

        1. Well, “minds” of the left are not really available, but violence is acceptable only in defense.
          Not that WK was ever actually threatened, rather than triggered.

        2. Good on you

    3. Calling for violence is too far. As annoying as they are you should retract and apologize.

  23. Amazingly enough – as long as one ignores all the events of American history that don’t resemble ‘isolationism’, then what is left bears a striking resemblence to isolationism. Course one could also substitute ‘duck’ for ‘isolationism’ with the same outcome.

    I still think Walter Russell Mead wrote, by far, the best book about how Americans broadly think about foreign policy – called Special Providence. It got ignored because it was set for publication in Sep 2001. It is very easy to see the one school of thought (he calls it Jeffersonian) that can be tarred as ‘isolationist’ if you squint hard enough. But the fact that he generally avoids that useless epithet is the best sign that Mead is writing actual history rather than some bullshit polemic by a know-it-all elitist asshole who’s spent his entire life in DC attempting to corrupt govt to his careerist impulse.

    And because Mead is interested in actual history, he can include events like American involvement in China, opening Japan, negotiating the historic consular agreements with about 70 state in pre-‘Germany’ Europe that directly led to the mass immigration that defines the US, the filibustering of the planterocracy in Central/South America, the US Navy’s coaling/basing agreements throughout the world. And it’s easier to put those into a broader perspective because there are FOUR schools of thought – Jeffersonian (mind our own business), Wilsonian (further ‘ideas’ via foreign policy), Hamiltonian (make the world safe for McDonalds), and Jacksonian (get offended easily and fight like the devil and see what changes).

    All of those also ‘fit’ the regular Americans notion of how we should view the world and what we should do in it

    1. “…Hamiltonian (make the world safe for McDonalds),..”

      So every one of your investments tanked and you’re really hoping to blame your idiocy on those ‘evelll korparashuns!’?

      1. Apparently you are one of those ‘non-interventionists’ who’s ok with war as long as it is profitable – for someone. Who thinks Eisenhower was a commie the nanosecond he admitted to a military-industrial complex. Who has exactly the same blindspots in domestic policy as in foreign policy. You think cronyism, corporatism, and fascism is just fine because the alternative is commies.

        You are – a demented old buffoon.

  24. There is no “vacillation” involved: the majority of Americans have opposed entering wars, again and again, and had to be manipulated through government propaganda into supporting each war the US entered. Americans are also pretty clear that they don’t want open borders, but instead limited immigration of skilled immigrants.

    Americans do like to travel, meet people in other cultures, be charitable when other countries face unexpected natural disasters,and trade with other countries. Americans don’t want to bomb other countries or subsidize other countries.

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