Media Criticism

Gretchen Whitmer Blames Trump's Rhetoric for the Plot To Kidnap Her, but There's No Evidence It Played a Role

Trump's rhetoric is often wrong, but that does not make it the underlying cause of every cruel or criminal event that transpires while he is president.

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Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer criticized President Donald Trump during a press conference on Thursday, linking the president's rhetoric to a recently foiled plot by Michigan militiamen to kidnap the governor.

The FBI has arrested six men in connection with the conspiracy. All of them had been extensively monitored since they first reportedly expressed interest in taking violent action against Whitmer early this year. An affidavit describing details of their plans was released to the public on Thursday.

"Our head of state has spent the past seven months stoking distrust, fomenting anger, and giving comfort to those who spread fear and hatred and division," said the Democratic governor. "Just last week, the president of the United States stood before the American people and refused to condemn hate groups like these two Michigan militia groups. Stand back and stand by, he told them."

Trump's comment was directed specifically at the Proud Boys, since that was the extremist group that debate moderator Chris Wallace had named. Those involved in the Whitmer conspiracy belong to a very different organization: the Wolverine Watchmen, a more traditional militia group that uses the language of freedom vs. tyranny, preserving the Constitution, etc. (The Proud Boys, by contrast, define themselves as "western chauvinists.")

Trump did famously tweet "LIBERATE MICHIGAN" at the height of the state's pandemic lockdowns. But if the affidavit is any indication, Trump had little to do with the development of the militiamen's plans. The president's name doesn't appear in the document at all. Moreover, Brandon Caserta, one of the six conspirators, can be seen on video referring to Trump as a tyrant. "Every single person that works for government is your enemy," he said. "Trump is not your friend."

Amy Cooter, a Vanderbilt sociologist who studies militias, believes Trump's call on people to stand up to their governors has factored into the actions of militia types in general, but she tells Reason she couldn't say for sure whether it had an impact on this particular group.

According to the affidavit, militiamen believed Whitmer and other state governors who had implemented strict lockdowns were violating the U.S. Bill of Rights and should be tried as traitors. This talk alarmed at least one member of the militia, who then contacted law enforcement to warn them. This is an interesting but unsurprising fact of the case, says Cooter.

"In usual times, about 90 percent of militia groups are what we call constitutionalists, meaning they are law abiding, they see themselves as working with law enforcement, while still being prepared and watching for signs of overreach," she says. "It is quite typical that groups in that category see it as their job to watch out for extremists."

From there on, the FBI monitored all aspects of the conspiracy to kidnap Whitmer. The group's efforts to procure gear and weapons were conducted with law enforcement's active involvement. There was never any chance that the conspirators could pull off their crime, and Whitmer was in no real danger.

Even so, the governor clearly sees the arrest of the six men as a good opportunity to excoriate Trump, whom she deemed "complicit" in their crimes. "Hate groups heard the president's words not as a rebuke, but as a rallying cry," she said. "When our leaders speak, their words matter."

This sounds suspiciously like the claim that Trump's rhetoric has fueled a surge in hate crimes, an assertion that grows much murkier when the actual data are considered.

On Thursday night, Trump responded angrily, calling Whitmer an ungrateful governor who has done a "terrible job."

"Rather than say thank you, she calls me a White Supremacist—while Biden and Democrats refuse to condemn Antifa, Anarchists, Looters and Mobs that burn down Democrat run cities," the president tweeted.

It's a perfect example of the thesis: Trump's rhetoric is often wrong, but that does not make it the underlying cause of every cruel or criminal event that transpires while he is president.

NEXT: The Police Tactics That Caused Breonna Taylor's Death Should Infuriate Second Amendment Advocates

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  1. This talk alarmed at least one member of the militia, who then contacted law enforcement to warn them.

    Was this the same one who was paid $8600 to introduce the agents provocateurs to these clowns?

    (as noted in the charging documents)

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      Lesson: dont conspire with Americans you dont know their resolve.

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    5. The likelihood that this is linked to Trump’s exact suggestion that militia should “stand by” for their next marching orders is unlikely what swayed these guys. One of them thought it up while they were drinking and shooting at stop signs on deserted Michigan dirt road. Luckily they were stupid and the Feds got a whiff of it and nailed them.

      1. Turns out the MSM lied…again.

        The Michigan guys are Anarchists and Lefties who hate Trump.

        Making sure Michigan will definitely go Trump because to vote Democrat means more Lefty violence.

      2. They also started plotting this in August well before “stand back and stand by.”

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  2. Undercover FBI agent – “Guys, we really need to kidnap the governor.”

    Militia members – “Well, we don’t know. Sounds sort of extreme.”

    Agent – “Oh, come on. I’ve already got handcuffs and IEDs in case we need them.

    Militia – “We’re still not sure it’s a good idea”

    Agent – “Pussies”

    Militia – “Okay. Tell us your plan.”

    Agent – “You’re all under arrest for conspiracy to kidnap.

    Militia – “Wha???”

    1. Yeah, that sounds about right.

      Part of the reason these groups watch out for and report “extremists” is because they know the “extremists” are probably government informants trying to entrap them, and the only way to effectively stop it is to report the government’s own agent provocateur to the government, on the record.

    2. The plot twist here is that one of the arrestees, Brandon Caserta, is an anti-cop anarchist who’s made anti-Trump ChinkTok vids.

      I said way back in June that it’s not a coincidence that no one even heard of the “Boogaloo Bois” before Fenty Floyd, because that shit glows so bright it could light up New York City for a year.

      1. Yep. I am expecting that asshole in Scotts Valley, who shot and killed some security officers in Oakland a few months ago, to be outed as a Fed CI or hanger on. Then again, Paddocks motivations remain an official mystery so far…

        The only difference in this case, vs the FBI’s usual MO, is that the accused aren’t MENA immigrants or home-grown newly ‘radicalized’ Islamists.

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        2. The only reason Caserta’s rants even came out is because someone managed to archive them before Facebook deleted all the evidence.

    3. If someone in the group brings up illegal activities, they are the narc.

    4. It’s completely normal for groups of men to talk about things like pulling off the “Boogaloo” (really? Boogaloo? Who named it that- The Proud Boyz?) through encrypted apps, attend militia training camps, and build faulty bombs. Any infringement of that kind of planning goes against what the Founding Fathers assumed would constitute typical rural entertainment.

    5. Yeah…this kind of stinks of Michigan swing state politics to me.

      It will back fire for democrats because probably more michigan residents want to do harm to their state politicians than care to admit.

    6. Says the guy who has zero proof and goes by what Alex Jones tells him is true.

  3. It doesn’t matter Soave. This point will be blared across the airwaves just as much as the “very fine people” charge.

    Frankly, the one good thing about a Biden administration will be that the shrill screeches of ghouls like Whitmer will once more fade into the background. Reason can go back to “Both Sides” criticisms while the democrats finish what they started with the Obama administration. They will re-weaponize the FBI and CIA, and get their regulation of “fake news” finished.

    But they will do it without a brash attitude, mean tweets, or icky conservative stigma. So Reason will be able to ignore it- or both sides it. And in 30 years or so when this has all metastasized into a government so terribly polite, and ruthlessly gentle that none oppose the Party in power, I will be retired- or dead- and it will be your problem.

    1. There won’t be a Biden administration. I don’t know where you’re getting this stuff from.

      1. All right Harris administration if you gotta be technical about it.

        1. We won’t know whose administration until after you vote Biden in.

          1. We have to vote in order to find out what in it.

          2. I have a pretty strong feeling we will find out Jan 22.

      2. Biden, Harris, Potato, Potahto.

        It’s all the power brokers running things anyways. That is why they picked two brainless mannequins as their broodqueens.

        1. It won’t be a Harris administration, either. Trump will win this time around, too.

          1. What will you do if he doesn’t?

            1. You know what he will do. He will claim voter fraud and say Biden is not a legitimate President, because he didn’t really win.

              1. Probably say crazy shit about Russians .

                1. And systemic racism, a super dangerous plague, and voter “suppression”

              2. Progressives refuse to accept the legitimacy of presidents; conservatives don’t, we just cope.

                1. It’s funny. I know a lot of progressives. I’ve listened to a lot of Progressive speakers. The only place I have ever heard the assertion that the left “never accepted the elections” has been from right wing media and those who get their talking points, usually verbatim, from them. People were disappointed about Trump’s win. They very reasonably accepted the intelligence agencies’ insistence that Russia helped. Watching Trump scurry to bury the story looks to any reasonable person like somebody hiding something, and Barr’s mischaracterization of the Meuller report only fanned those flames of suspicion.

                  From the standpoint of the majpority of Americans, the shit that Trump has gone through has not only been justified by his caginess, much of it has been brought about by it. The left coped with every previous conservative president prior. They did not jump on Trump because he was a Republican, they jumped on him for completely legitimate reasons. Did you see his performance in Helsinki alongside Putin? I cannot understand how any reasonable person could come away from that fiasco with any doubt that he was under Putin’s thumb, and he’s only done more to justify those thoughts.

                  Yes, Trump was elected legitimately. Even if Russia sowed discord and distrust in his favor he still won it legitimately- he got more thatn 270 electors in the 2016 election. But he als looks a lot like a crook. Anyone but the President of the United States would have been forced to answer subpoenas including letting his taxes be examined by congress. It doesn’t delegitimize his election in 2016, but it’s worth learning to whom he owes millions of dollars, especially if it looks a lot like those loans are from people who could compromise him. Does that clarify things for you? Good.

                  1. Woof, the gaslighting here glows brighter than the boog operation.

                    1. Ever notice the leftists so often cast themselves as what they clearly are not – free thinking, moderate, individualist, and so on?

                      This one is just another typical NPC

                  2. I’ve listened to a lot of Progressive speakers. The only place I have ever heard the assertion that the left “never accepted the elections” has been from right wing media and those who get their talking points, usually verbatim, from them.

                    Obviously, listening to “Progressive speaker” too much has rotted your brain.

                  3. The Libertarians on this site are a surprisingly low-brow bunch of stump-butters. Don’t waste your time trying to REASON with them.

                    1. The lefty shits who show up here are typically slack-jawed droolers afflicted with TDS, lefty shit.

            2. Stop paying taxes.

              Good luck trying to finance the GND without people like me paying taxes.

              1. I think a tax revolt is an awesome idea. I mean doesn’t Modern Monetary Theory basically just completely sever the value of money from any kind of backing? If no backing is needed other than the blessed guarantee of the holy government, then why are we ever taxed at all? Just keep those presses humming!

                1. You misunderstand. I’m not advocating a “tax revolt”, I’m simply talking about retiring somewhere outside the US.

        2. Biden, Harris, Potato, Potahto

          Dude, that’s pretty racist.

      3. Hindenburg-Harris administration.

      4. Lol only an idiot would think Biden isn’t going to win with Trump acting like a goddamn loon.

    2. A what now?

    3. 30 years, nothing. I’ll be surprised if it happens in less than 4. Why wait?

      1. Yea, 30 years down the line is fantasy.
        The totalitarianism will be almost immediate.
        See: 2020

        1. Not if Trump is defeated.

          1. No, only if we eliminate enough of you and your comrades.

  4. I think I’d like a lot more information about these people, and the actions of the FBI. I really hope there are copious amounts of unedited/unaltered video that show the FBI’s actions were totally aboveboard and unassailable.

    Because frankly, I no longer trust the FBI.

    As for these assholes….if they actually took concrete actions to advance this plot to kidnap a sitting governor, then they belong in a cage. For a very long time.

    1. “Because frankly, I no longer trust the FBI.”

      Putin won! (Did I do that right?)

      1. Sadly, the FBI lost my trust because of the actions of many FBI agents and the actions of corrupt FBI leadership. Based on what has come out, I have concluded thatn the FBI should be downsized ~90% and the FISA Court must be abolished.

        1. Entirely eliminated.
          Use the US Marshals service.

            1. ^! And open up their files to the public.

        2. The FBI was actively involved in trying to coup a duly elected president.

          Fire them all and hire new federal law enforcement. Any agent not directly involved likely covered for corrupt agents, like comey and mccabe.

      2. The FBI managed to “accidentally” shoot the unarmed Vicki Weaver through the head a long time before Putin was in power. What have they done since to increase their trustworthiness?

        1. Totally an accident. I mean the shooter was only an HRT guy, sitting 150 meters or so from the door, and they brag about being able to shoot quarter-sized groups from that distance.

          Completely a mistake then, to yank the shot by a few feet, and kill the likely psychological leader of that group.

          1. I saw something yesterday that referenced Ruby Ridge, which was odd because it was trying to imply something sinister about people with no faith in the federal government. That is an incredibly obtuse take when Randy Weaver was acquitted and subsequently won his civil suit against the FBI.

            1. Actually, I think the government settled that one out-of-court. Which kept it out of the news…

              1. No, they didn’t. I only saw the news coverage because I was watching for it. Weaver was a broken man after they killed his family and best friend.

                1. The federal government murdered weavers baby and son.

                  He showed great restraint in not killing janet reno with his green beret hands.

    2. That’s why this kind of a stunt is a bad idea. More often than not, it ends badly and all you’ve accomplish is lots of bad publicity.

      1. They’ve managed to make an evil bitch the victim.

        1. that may have been the intent

        2. Don’t worry. Whitler is working overtime to make the militia people look sympathetic in comparison.

          1. She’ll do her best.

    3. Every “terrorist” or “militia” person who has been caught by the FBI were almost all groomed by the FBI and all of them would have been just bar room braggers or in todays parlance key board heros and nothing more

      1. Ron…my attitude is: Show me the evidence.

        1. Every one had an agent who set them up, Ruby ridge is a fine example.

          1. I suspect this shit didn’t start with Ruby Ridge and Waco – knowing J. Edgar Hoover, it’s always been this way – but certainly Ruby Ridge and Waco should have given you fair notice of how they operate. This myth that the FBI were ever anything other than the secret police is nonsense.

        2. Didn’t the FIBs catch John Dillinger and send his crank to a museum?

      2. Ruby Ridge worked for them. They successfully convinced a man desperate for money to make and sell them 2 sawed off shotguns, then got to kill 1/2 his family without any repercussions. Some got promotions.

        They’re sticking to entrapment as the primary play to pull out if the book. There’s no going back.

        1. “Some got promotions” Yes, while a few low-level personel were subject to discipline, Larry Potts, the guy who was in charge at both Ruby Ridge and Waco went on to be awarded a Presidential Commendation. Had he been working in the private sector, he’d have been looking for a different job after the first fiasco.

          1. Looking…from inside the big house.

    4. It doesn’t matter.

      Here’s the thing – the ‘defund the police’ people are going to support the FBI in this no matter what because ‘right wingers’.

      The right wingers are going to support the FBI in this no matter what because ‘law enforcement good’.

      No one believes in personal freedom and government control except for in a narrow slice of things they are personally interested in. As soon as you step outside that slice then they forget about all the bad things and overreach they know government does constantly – because they’re in *support* of that shit except when it affects them directly.

      That is why libertarianism is ultimately destined to fail. Not because we’re obsessed with pot, ass sex, and Mexicans, but because people like to control other people. They like to control them so much they are willing to allow their own lives to be made hellish as long as there’s something they can point to in someone else’s misery and say ‘I caused this’.

      1. I’m a right winger and I’d like to get rid of the FBI and the CIA and the ATF

  5. https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1314326901683617792

    Here is the Michigan nutjob with the big anarchist flag talking about how anti-Trump he is

    1. https://twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/1314267058339819520

      This is a video of Brandon Caserta, one of the ringleaders of the group of men arrested for a plot where the group planned to kidnap Governor Gretchen Whitmer. Caserta has an anarchist flag behind him and in YouTube videos trashes police. He’s not a Republican, he’s an anarchist.

    2. He is an anarchist in the “government in always the problem” like Reagan said. I know of few of them. They hate modern Republicans because they spend trillions of dollars we don’t have like Dubya did and Trump does. They hate globalist centrists like Obama and Biden even more.

      You Trump Trash spawned these far-right motherfuckers like Tim McVeigh and Dylan Roof so don’t try to disown them. They are like the fucker that flew his plane into the IRS building in Austin – he was an anarchist who hated both parties but in particular Democrats.

      1. McVeigh blew up a building full of cops to protest cops setting fire to a building with 20 children inside. He’d fit right into antifa.

        1. McVeigh is one or your ilk – you fetid piece of Trump Trash.

          1. McVeigh was an atheist who was executed well before Trump ran for anything. His actions fit antifa better than the GOP.

          2. McVeigh was a marxist

            1. “McVeigh was a marxist.”

              And a co-conspirator with radical, bombmaking Islamists. Unless you think it was totally coincidental that Terry Nichols and Ramzi Yusef—he of the first WTC bombing—were in the same small city in the Phillipines for a few weeks.

          3. McVeigh is one or your ilk – you fetid piece of Trump Trash.

            So you’re saying the people who burned 20 kids alive are yours, you hicklib pederast?

            Considering how many government employees get caught looking at child porn on the taxpayer dime, that would make sense.

          4. You get off on videos off children being raped and tortured. You likely fuck children yourself. So you’re directly aligned with everything dark and evil in the world.

        2. A building full of cops. And not cops and children. Think that engendered sympathy for the Branch Davidians? Think that moved the antigovernment movement forward, the terrorist murder of children?

          1. As I recall, McVeigh said that he’d been unaware of the daycare. But he still meant to murder people, so that’s not much of an excuse.

            If he’d left the van in the parking lot, with a note on the dash, “Next time you murder people, for real.”, and then just called it in instead of blowing it up, I might have had a bit of sympathy. He didn’t have to actually kill people just to deliver a message.

            But what he actually did was inexcusable. And, yeah, it really set back the movement, even if it did throw enough of a scare into the feds to get them to clean up their acts a bit.

            1. It also helped Clinton’s reelection a great deal. What a way to discredit the Right after that ass-kicking he’d taken by Gingrich et al, six months before.

            2. You are the real victim, if anything.

      2. Oddly your defense of anarchists being caused by Republicans sounds awfully similar to the leftist anarchists here.

      3. “You Trump Trash spawned these far-right motherfuckers like Tim McVeigh and Dylan Roof”

        Dylan Roof shot up a Church, Buttplug. He’s one of yours. Look at your pal Kirkland advocating the same in this very thread. Roof believed in critical race theory and killing Christians at worship. You can’t get woker than that.

        And McVeigh died 15 years before Trump even ran for president. Did Trump Trash have a time machine that went twenty years into the past?

        Fucking idiot.

        1. Roof is a racist POS Trump Trash.

          1. Democrats remain the biggest racists. It is what CRT is built on dumbfuck.

          2. No, Roof is one of you guys, Plug. Shooting Christians at church is your thing.

      4. Now do antifa.

        1. Antifa, no murders.
          Rightwing militia types, lots and lots of murders.

          1. Antifa – tons of attempted murders. Incompetence is not a defense.

          2. Antifa, no murders.

            “Just ignore the ones in CHAZ and the guy who was stalked and executed in Portland.”

            1. And his accomplices, who are on video and identifiable (just as the executioner in CHAZ is), haven’t been picked up.
              FBI goes after people who haven’t actually done anything, but nothing on the hit squad who committed a political murder on video.

          3. The killings in CHAZ, Minnesota, and Portland were just our imagination, I guess.

            What a worthless fucking troll you are. Though good at your job. I was wondering before I clicked on this, why it had 250 comments.

            1. I condemn all murder. How about you?

              1. Tony
                October.9.2020 at 12:45 pm

                Antifa, no murders.
                Rightwing militia types, lots and lots of murders.

                1. Makes sense. In Tony’s world, the Proud Boys are not people, therefore, not murder. Putting down an animal is actually humane.

                  1. In Tony’s world, the Proud Boys are not people, therefore, not murder.

                    Apparently Black Lives Don’t Matter here if they’re killed by Antifa while joyriding in a Jeep.

      5. So you far left motherfucker’s deserve no blame for spawning them? None of your hateful rhetoric, none of your constant attempts to weaponize the government for use against people who just want to be left alone?

        If you constantly tell someone how much you hate them and show them how you’re actively working to destroy their lives – don’t be surprised when they take you seriously and act accordingly.

    3. Faster than me. Saves me a link. Came to post. 2 of them had videos as anarchists.

    4. Never forget that Hitler and his socialists burned downed the reichstag and blamed it on commies.

      Why would the german commies burn down the reichstag? History never provides an adequate answer. Commies in france or any orher western European nation never burned down a legislative building. Hitler used national tragedy to seize power. It wa literally his MO.

  6. Those involved in the Whitmer conspiracy belong to a very different organization: the Wolverine Watchmen

    “Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel said seven of the men — all of whom were in custody on state charges under Michigan’s Anti-Terrorism Act — were “linked to the militia group Wolverine Watchmen and associates of Wolverine Watchmen.”

    Nessel didn’t provide any further details about the group or take questions from reporters during a news conference in Lansing.

    The Wolverine Watchmen don’t appear to have any online presence and aren’t listed among 576 “extreme antigovernment groups” identified as active during 2019 by the Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors American hate groups and other extremists.”

    Does Robbie know something we don’t know about this “militia group” that plotted to kidnap Whitmer? Because from what I’ve read, the group “reached out” to militia groups, and the militia groups immediately turned them in to the authorities.

    Not to mention which, this whole operation smells exactly like the usual FBI “foiling” of “terrorist plots” – find some drunk half-wit talking shit about what he’d like to do and, since he lacks the intelligence and the means of actually developing a plot or carrying it out, have an undercover FBI agent supply him with both a plot and the means of carrying out the plot, then bust his ass when the dipshit agrees to go along with the plot and crow about how you just foiled a master criminal. No, you just talked a retard into agreeing to do something you suggested he do, which is hardly a difficult task.

    1. I mean, it’s a well-known adage among these various groups that as soon as you hear one of the members talk about committing criminal acts, you kick him out of the group because he’s an FBI informant and if you let him stick around you’re going to get busted on a conspiracy charge even if the FBI informant is the only one who has ever talked about committing a criminal act.

      1. But I guess this narrative serves its purpose – to prove that right-wing extremists are the real threat to America, even if your right-wing extremists are actually left-wing extremists. And here’s Robbie cheerfully furthering the narrative by going along with the lie that these people were part of some “militia group”, which we all know are right-wing extremists. Jesus Fucking Christ, it pisses me off that this transparent attempt to influence the election isn’t seen for what it so obviously is. It’s pure propaganda by the FBI.

        1. Blmantifa are an organized group who have been committing political violence for months.
          They haven’t just planned it, they’ve done it and continue doing so.
          Where’s the FBI?

          1. At the ready to take down anyone who opposes BLM and Antifa.

          2. “Where’s the FBI?”

            encouraging them from within.

            It’s been surmised that half the people present during the Oregon siege a few years ago were FBI informants. It beggars belief to think the FBI can infiltrate some backwoods militia losers, but haven’t infiltrated BLM/Anitfa urban militia losers. The former they round up as a PR stunt every other year. The latter? nothing.

          3. I had to point out to some friends this morning that just because the name of the group might be Antifa and they claim to be anti-fascist, does not make them in fact *not-fascists*. If the shoe fits…

            The Sturmabteilung (SA; German pronunciation: [ˈʃtʊɐ̯mʔapˌtaɪlʊŋ] , literally “Storm Detachment”, was the Nazi Party’s original paramilitary wing. It played a significant role in Adolf Hitler’s rise to power in the 1920s and 1930s. Its primary purposes were providing protection for Nazi rallies and assemblies; disrupting the meetings of opposing parties; fighting against the paramilitary units of the opposing parties, especially the Roter Frontkämpferbund of the Communist Party of Germany (KPD) and the Reichsbanner Schwarz-Rot-Gold of the Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD); and intimidating Romani, trade unionists, and especially Jews such as during the 1933 Nazi boycott of Jewish businesses.

          4. “Where’s the FBI?”

            Sniffing Whitmer’s panties!

    2. “Linked to” is a particularly annoying weasel word. You know what it means? Not that you have anything to do with whoever you’re “linked to”, not that you’re a member, or cooperating, or that they’d know you from Adam.

      It means, literally, nothing more than that somebody mentioned both of you in the same context.

      1. Where are the notarized membership cards?

        1. I’m sure white knight will be along shortly asking for evidence that they are truly connected to militia groups, right?

          1. Thanks. I came here specifically to see if WK would be here making that argument. Didn’t figure he would, so no surprise that he’s not.

            1. It’s almost like she’s lying about not being a lefty.

          2. First of all, this proves once again that is the CACLLs here who make discussions about me. I don’t. I wasn’t even in this discussion, and you all brought me up.

            Here are my comments on this yesterday:

            https://reason.com/2020/10/08/the-pence-harris-debate-was-a-model-of-civility-evasion-and-obfuscation/#comment-8510032

            [Ken Shultz wrote: ] “The press calls everybody who doesn’t like the government a ‘militia’”

            [I wrote: ] I hope you can see the irony that this is exactly analogous to all the links posted here to “BLM” rioters who have no affiliation with BLM.

            1. I also posted this more joking comment:

              https://reason.com/2020/10/08/trump-threatens-to-drop-out-of-virtual-debate/#comment-8510037

              “So you are saying you want to see the far-right ID cards poking out of their pockets.”

              1. Mr. R Mac can moo!
                Can you?!

            2. Antifa and BLM are appearing together nightly in the Portland vandalize/trash/arson/intimidate olympics. A tag team match against cops and citizens.

          3. He already has the cites ready to link for us – due to his extensive online research.

            1. Sure looks like I did.

            2. And yet he managed to not actually ever say that these guys are not militia. He asked a question about irony and joked about it, but never actually said, “there is no proof this is an organized effort.”

              Hmmm.

              Sounds like a fucking weasel to me.

              1. There is no proof these guys are militia. In fact, there is evidence they are not.

                Happy? Cleared up?

                1. Yes 🙂

      2. But if you murder a Trump supporter and say you’re “100% antifa”, you’re NOT linked to antifa.

        1. That would be ‘within’ Antifa. ‘Linked to’ means fewer than 5 degrees of separation.

    3. It’s more of an idea than an organization.

      1. So, this proves ideas really are violence.

  7. A democrat politician tells blatant lies.
    Robby, to be sure, this is not news.

  8. The Ransom of Red Karen

    1. Woah. I haven’t thought about that short story since I was a kid, I thought it was so funny back then.
      I’m going to go look that up.

    2. *golf clap*

  9. Huh. And here I thought Nardz lived in Georgia, not Michigan.

    1. We know you’d never kidnap anyone over eleven, Jeff, so no worries there.

      1. To be fair…. he just watch videos of kids being kidnapped. Hard to do it when one waddles.

        1. Is Pedo Jeffy a fat kid?

          1. He said he was when I asked him.

            1. I’m confident you are accurately recounting the conversation, with no mis-characterization on your part of what was said.

    2. The guy who calls everyone else a fascist applauds state violence to punish thoughtcrime.
      How unsurprising.

      1. It is always funny when ‘one of the true libertarians’, according to sarc, can’t resist getting his fascist lefty giggles out and reveals his deeper motives. Humiliating anyone that disagrees with him.

        The guy that stole your cookies when you were a kid did us all a disfavor, Baby jeffy.

    1. In the end it’s probably going to turn out to be an Antifa cell that tried recruiting a real militia group for cover.

      1. NRA REDNECKS FOR BLACK LIVES MATTER!

        That is not a thing.

          1. That news conference is going nowhere.

        1. Slimy turds for didddling kids is a thing.
          Fuck off and die.

      2. left wing instigators? or are there only right wing instigators?

    2. Trump is so evil and insidious that he can even get his haters to do his bidding, the fiend.

      1. The fact that Lefties are scrambling to hide the political affiliations of these dupes is very telling.

  10. “Gretchen Whitmer Blames Trump’s Rhetoric for the Plot To Kidnap Her, but There’s No Evidence It Played a Role
    Trump’s rhetoric is often wrong, but that does not make it the underlying cause of every cruel or criminal event that transpires while he is president.

    The horseshit headline sounds like White Knight wrote it.

    If it’d been Trump behaving like Whitmer as Governor of Minnesota, and there was a plot to kidnap him, Robby’s headline would have read like so:

    “Without Evidence Governor Trump Blames Top Democrats for Possible Kidnap Conspiracy
    Trump refuses to consider that his own totalitarian actions in Minnesota during the Covid crisis may have contributed to any desperate actions”

    1. So, you are agreeing that I have a good point: that we should make sure, when some person or persons accused of or caught doing something bad, that we have proof of the affiliations of those persons with some organization or movement before we claim that they have affiliation with that organization or movement. And we should also not overstate whatever evidence we have. No matter whether the organization we are discussing is Black Lives Matter or militias, the same principle should apply.

      Thank you for acknowledging that I was making a good point, and that I was right about it.

      1. Guys involved in the “plot” who posted videos saying they were anti-cop and anti-Trump probably provides a good indication of where their sympathies lie.

        As do people chanting “Black Lives Matter” while throwing bricks through the windows of people’s homes.

        1. If you are referring to the videos John linked to twice yesterday, nobody chanted “Black Lives Matter” in this videos.

          1. They weren’t chanting it during the “protest”?

            1. They weren’t protesting so much as they were violently rioting. Do you not know the difference?

              1. So you’re admitting the protesters are rioters now?

                1. If you want me to go along with the CACLL narrative that all protestors are rioters, that isn’t so.

                  The people in THIS video are rioting.

        2. Here’s the videos of the rioters in Wauwatosa, WI. Nobody is chanting “Black Lives Matter”, nobody is wearing “Black Lives Matter” t-shirts or waving “Black Lives Matter” signs:

          https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2020/10/08/daylight-reveals-the-damage-to-businesses-and-homes-after-last-nights-rioting-in-wauwatosa-wi/

          They are rioters with no name brand attached to them. If you call them “Black Lives Matter” rioters with no evidence that they have anything to do with “Black Lives Matter” you are just making things up.

          It is precisely analogous to assuming the people conspiring to kidnap Whitmer are right-wing militia. (By the way, just want to highlight that I have not made any such assumptions.)

          1. This hyper-legalistic deflection on your part doesn’t get any less sad in the repeated attempts.

            1. “hyper-legalistic” = truth and accuracy

              Got it.

              1. Stop lying.

          2. Here’s the videos of the rioters in Wauwatosa, WI. Nobody is chanting “Black Lives Matter”, nobody is wearing “Black Lives Matter” t-shirts or waving “Black Lives Matter” signs:

            These people showed up to a public event organized and branded by BLM. It’s amusing we’re supposed to believe the BLM protests are important because it shows much of the country supports their positions, but if any of them trigger criticism suddenly it’s “they’re not with us”.

            1. Can you cite a source that Black Lives Matter organized an attack on people’s homes?

              1. Why would an attack on a home be the relevant issue? BLM branded protests have ended with attacks on buildings, cars, and people as well as residences. There was a long-ish article from a man in an apartment building in NYC. One night of rioting including them breaking into the lobby area while the two doormen and sever residents reinforced the access areas to the apartments. Then of course there was the notorious attack on the Portland Mayor’s apartment building which included lighting the bottom floor on fire.

                Keep up the search for the one thing they haven’t attacked. I’m sure many left wingers will agree with you that whatever you can come up with is the single important issue and everything else can safely be ignored.

                1. Your “they” is overly broad. You are associating with the Black Lives Matter organization incidents that they did not organize and that included no participants affiliated with them.

                  It’s not like there aren’t real criticisms of BLM to be made. Why not stick to what is factual.

                  1. Why not stop White Knighting for BLM, faggot.

                    1. I’m not. If you are incapable of understanding that you have a problem with understanding subtle arguments.

                  2. It’s not like there aren’t real criticisms of BLM to be made. Why not stick to what is factual.

                    Note how WK went from asking for instances where homes were attacked but when reminded that has happened moved on to a new demand. For people who only want to protect the shield any satisfied demand will always lead to a new demand. This is how you identify unserious people.

  11. What are the career prospects for a faux libertarian, Trump-stained clinger in modern journalism, Robby?

    You have three months, buddy. After that, maybe Uber or GrubHub?

    1. You must have the right opinions to get the right jobs. Utopia!

    2. He can join the Harris Resistance.

    3. Fascists brook no dissenting opinions. Shoe fits.

    4. Gonna “cancel” all the libertarian journalists, Rev? Pretty convenient to get them out of the way,eh?

  12. Given that the Michigan Supreme Court has said that Whitmer was abusing her authority as governor, and her own imperious attitude towards criticism of her actions, it does not require Trump’s rhetoric to explain why there is hostility towards her in the state.

    1. The court action is why the FBI pulled the trigger on a ‘plot’ an informant had been stringing along to be used when needed.

      Propoganda.

      1. the Deep State managing the news cycle?
        sounds like a conspiracy theory, and those are going to be banned.

      2. Weeks before an election in a swing state.

        FBI is an enemy of the People.

    2. Did they actually put down their beers and get off they assess to do something, or was it all talk?

      1. Not ALL talk; false affidavits are required.

      2. Won’t be surprised if 6 of the 7 end up being FBI plants and the 7th guy is mentally challenged.

        Like they used to do under Obama…e.g. Operation Fearless

        http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/12/allegations-against-the-atf-using-the-mentally-disabled-as-pawns/282226/

    3. Came to say something similar. Wether these guys are FBI stooges or the real thing, treat your citizens like shit even after the courts say stop it and you don’t then this is the type of thing that will happen and honestly must happen. When our leaders ignore their own laws and suppress the citizens there comes a time when good men must stand up and since they already went the legal route that left them one choice. Whitmer brought this on her self.

      1. -That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.–Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

        1. Shall we start a list?
          I’ll go first and begin at the beginning:
          – IRS targeting groups with “patriot” in their names

  13. Here’s a couple of interesting items about this militia group that nobody ever fucking heard of before a couple of days ago.

    Arena, who also hadn’t heard of the Wolverine Watchmen before Thursday, said the allegations against the group are “eerily similar” to the 2010 case involving the Hutaree militia movement, which was based near Adrian.

    In that case, federal prosecutors alleged group members planned to kill police officers and then kill more officers who attended their funerals. Nine members of the Hutaree group were arrested and charged.

    “Eerily similar” to the Hutaree case, you say? And who might the Hutarees be? Let’s check them out.

    The group became widely known in 2010 after the United States FBI prosecuted them in federal court for an alleged plan for violent revolt. The prosecution said they intended to kill a police officer and to attack the funeral with bombs. The presiding judge dismissed these charges. Three members pleaded guilty to possessing a machine gun and were sentenced to time served.

    Yes, “eerily similar”, indeed! Announce some monstrous plot to commit unspeakable acts to great fanfare, but as soon as a judge gets a good look at the charges, the whole thing falls apart as the extreme silliness it really is.

    1. I should note that the first quote was from a newspaper article that quoted some “expert” on hate groups who warns us that there are many of these groups “flying under the radar”, “flying under the radar” being used as an excuse for why he’d never heard of this group before, not that “because the group doesn’t fucking exist” wouldn’t be a perfectly reasonable excuse for why you’ve never heard of them. Needless to say, the quote about the Hutaree group ends with the “Nine members of the Hutaree group were arrested and charged”, it doesn’t mention the part about the charges subsequently being dropped for lack of evidence that any such plot actually existed.

      The second quote comes from Wikipedia, which actually details the “plot” and the arrests and the outcome of the whole shit show involving the Hutarees.

    2. I read an article that said this militia wants to build a society around the Bill of Rights–which is obviously insane!

      1. Extremists!

    3. If the goal of this ‘foiled attempt’ on Governor Whitmer is to focus attention away from the Michigan Supreme Court’s decision last week and to make Trump look worse, I would say that it is working. Governor Whitmer is getting a lot of sympathy that she didn’t have a week ago. Anyone questioning the efficacy the COVID response such as mask-wearing and lockdowns is now being lumped with the Wolverine boys as a passive co-conspirator.

      The Hutarees immediately came to mind when I read this story in the Detroit News yesterday. I recalled the story and the outcome.

      The story did get some traction back in 2010 as Michigan is famous for its militia movements dating back to Norman Olson and ‘Michigan Mike’ in the early 90s. We all recall Tim McVeigh and the Nichols Brothers blowing up things on the Nichols’ farm near Howell MI before the Oklahoma City bombing. It was a joke when the charges were quietly dropped although the Hutaree training videos on Youtube provided light entertainment for anyone with an actual military background.

      1. Wolverine, I wonder what movie they got that name from, could it be Red Dawn. Starting sound more made up every minute

        1. They could be ‘X-Men’ fans too.

          1. Or even a more extreme offshoot of a Hugh Jackman fan club.

        2. They’re not U of M, alumni seemingly. Your guess is probably right.

        3. Michigan is the Wolverine State, so it’s not that much of a stretch.

          1. I blame the movie for inspiring them, sue whoever made the movie. But leave the great actor Patrick Swayze out of it

            1. Jennifer Gray was the cutest girl Wolverine.

  14. If Democrats like her get to play the rhetoric victim card, so does the president based on what they’ve tossed in his direction.

  15. I’ll just go ahead and blame the kidnapping plan on climate change, since it causes every other ailment according to “experts”. They were all probably climate refugees from Detroit or something.

    1. Well, OK, but don’t forget that the kidnappers hate Whitmer because she is black.

      1. Damn those systemic racists

  16. Once again, Soave and other anti Trump left wing propagandists (who call themselves journalists), have totally misrepresented the facts of this situation. I’ve read a dozen front page news articles about this bust (and Whitmer’s false accusation against Trump), but none of those stories revealed this was an FBI sting operation.

    It was the FBI, not the idiots who they arrested, who tactically planned and orchestrated this bogus plot to kidnap the tyrant Whitmer, and then arrested those who they had manipulated and duped into participating in a make believe crime they knew would never occur.

    This is very similar to how otherwise innocent, but gullible, people are entrapped and lured by undercover law enforcers (who pose as underage girls looking for sex) to correspond and meet, and are then arrested when they show up.

    1. After reading the entire affidafit, it appears the FBI encouraged their confidential informant to continue meeting with (while secretly recording) and plotting the kidnap plan (with those who were arrested) throughout the summer.

      Had the informant stopped actively participating in the plot (after he first contacted the FBI), this thing may have fizzled out. Based upon the affidavit, the informant appeared to be encouraging and emboldening the others to follow through with the suggestion to kidnap Whitman.

      1. typically the FBI agent proposes the plot, then tries to recruit participants, then a second FBI agent supposedly will sell them all the weapons they need to carry out the plot, then they arrest the recruited dupes.

        1. Most of the “foiled terror plots” of the past 20 years follow the same script, only they try to recruit Isis/Al Qaeda sympathizers instead of right wing nutjobs.

          1. I’ve heard talk that the OK city bombing was actually following the same script, except that the feds lost track of McVeigh and didn’t swoop in in time. Thus explaining some of the odd loose ends that never got followed up.

            Wouldn’t shock me.

  17. “Gretchen Whitmer Blames Trump’s Rhetoric for the Plot To Kidnap Her”

    It’s entirely appropriate to blame the victim–at least partially–especially when the victim is partially to blame. If governors don’t want to enrage these people by their blatantly unconstitutional behavior that costs hundreds of thousands of people their jobs, their homes, and their futures, one way to avoid that is to not engage in blatantly unconstitutional behavior that ruins people’s lives–something Gretchen Whitmer has done according to the Michigan supreme court.

    LANSING, Mich. (AP) — A 1945 law repeatedly used by Gov. Gretchen Whitmer to respond to the coronavirus pandemic was declared unconstitutional Friday by the Michigan Supreme Court, a striking decision that puts months of restrictions in jeopardy while COVID-19 continues to flare up around the state.

    . . . .

    Coincidentally, the court’s action emerged on the same day that Whitmer’s foes submitted more than 539,000 signatures in a bid to repeal the ’45 law.

    . . . .

    But Whitmer did not signal that she was giving up. She said her emergency declaration and related orders still can remain in place for 21 days, and then many of them will continue “under alternative sources” of law.

    https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-legislature-michigan-legislation-gretchen-whitmer-c79f38dc0cd73f4f2d175b2a30460131

    It’s a tragedy when someone is mauled by a bear, so if you come across a bear in the wild, don’t poke at its cubs with a stick like Governor Whitmer did, okay?

    1. Oh shit, Michigan has 539,000 militia members!
      We have their names right there…

    2. Huh, Ken, I didn’t realize there was a “she had it coming” exception to the NAP.

      1. Ok, let’s give chemjeff a chance here…

        Whitmer has assumed tyrannical power. She has used that power to destroy millions of people’s lives and businesses. She has ignored the legislature when they tried to rein her abuse of power in. She has ignored the court when it ruled the power she claims and exercises is illegitimate.

        What is the proper response?

        1. “What is the proper response?”

          Whine about some irrelevant issue? Did I get that right?

          1. “Whine about some irrelevant issue? Did I get that right?”

            That’s the Biden plan.

            1. Yes, they did. No kidnapping required.

      2. “Huh, Ken, I didn’t realize there was a “she had it coming” exception to the NAP.”

        Did you join Tony in early morning drinking?
        It’s hard to realize that anyone is stupid enough to compare what Ken posted to violating NAP, but you quite often lower the bar farther than what we’d think possible.

        1. Being a libertarian does not mean we have no duty to defend our lives and property and the lives and property of others.

          Whitmore has committed treason and needs to pay the price. If we fail to impose the price of treason upon traitors we all hang.

          The aggression was already committed by Whitmore.

          Hang the bitch.

          1. The state police should put her in a holding cell.

    3. It didn’t take long …

      I’m subscribed to updates from Michigan’s Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs and just retrieved a notice from it containing the following link:
      https://www.michigan.gov/coronavirus/0,9753,7-406-98178_98455-541962–,00.html

      Since I have cavalierly ignored all of the EOs – and also must be one of those militia members since I signed the Unlock Michigan petition – I can’t right now compare it to those. But on first blush it appears at least as extensive as, if not more so than, the EOs which the Michigan Supreme Court determined were without authority.

  18. Isn’t it amazing that one can say Trump is responsible for so much good yet he is never at fault for the bad things?

    Come off it. His rhetoric is nothing short of terrible and he directly inflames tensions wherever he can.

    1. Given that the American left are essentially Sauron’s army right now and are behaving like psychotics, it’s hard to talk about their lieutenants like Gretchen without opprobrium.

      She’s behaved like the Wicked Witch of the West, but somehow it’s Trump’s fault that even some lefties want to kidnap her.

      1. We are irredeemable evil because we want to save the Affordable Care Act?

        1. We are irredeemable evil because we want to save the Affordable Care Act?

          We are deplorable because we believe there is some limit to government authority? See how dishonest Tony’s schtick is?

          1. Everyone believes that. I’m trying to figure out why American liberals are irredeemably evil. For which policy? They’re not the ones who set up actual concentration camps where, and I’ll quote the actual policy, “cruelty is the point.” They’re not the ones who stood by with their thumbs up their asses because they were simply too incompetent to handle a pandemic, letting hundreds of thousands die.

            But they would prefer you keep your spittle to yourself and maybe not be rude to trans people. KILL THEM ALL.

            1. They’re not the ones who set up actual concentration camps where,

              Actually, they were. The only camps are immigration centers which were set up under Obama.

              They’re not the ones who stood by with their thumbs up their asses because they were simply too incompetent to handle a pandemic, letting hundreds of thousands die.

              Actually, they are. Governors exert executive authority in the US and all the states with the worst performance are Dems – left wingers but “liberals” in your usage. The government employees in the responsible medical institutions are also overwhelmingly left wingers.

              One of the reasons you’re so dismissable is your Pavlovian and juvenile belief everything wrong is the result of your enemies and everything good is the result of your allies. You have no ability to understand anything because you force every issue into a partisan framework.

              I’m trying to figure out why American liberals are irredeemably evil.

              I wouldn’t use that term. But for starters I:

              1. Oppose your desire to control everything.
              2. Oppose your efforts to punish any deviation from (1) including by making political loyalty a job requirement.
              3. Oppose the lying about both reality and people’s beliefs to incite hatred to bolster political loyalty.
              4. Oppose your belief the results of my work are yours to distribute.
              5. Oppose racial discrimination.

        2. The “Affordable Care Act” is an irredeemable evil because it punishes innocent people who have committed no crime.

          Trying it uphold it is as bad as dirty cop Kamala and Lord of the Flies Pence supporting the war on drugs.

          This government is illegitimate and has been since forever.

          Impose the Constitution, one rope at a time.

          1. “it punishes innocent people who have committed no crime.”

            You must hate this guy on this thread named Jeb Kerman who keeps calling for the extrajudicial murder of his political opponents.

            1. Tony, it is way too late to play the “moral high ground” double standard game.

              1. Because I maintain the moral high ground I’ve always had?

                1. What was that, the bottom of the Grand Canyon?

            2. Impose the Constitution specifically excludes extrajudicial conduct.

              Words matter Tony.

              I do wish we had an edit button though. I thought my line was pretty good but I somehow blew the word ‘to’…

              Trying to uphold it is as bad as dirty cop Kamala and Lord of the Flies Pence supporting the war on drugs.

    2. His rhetoric is nothing short of terrible and he directly inflames tensions wherever he can.

      You are so right! Goddammit, it pisses me off so much that Trump just can’t keep his fat mouth shut and take the abuse from the Left with the grace and good humor that Bush and McCain and Romney displayed. So undignified for him to engage in shitslinging when he’s having shit slung at him – it takes two to make a fight and if Trump didn’t fight back there wouldn’t be a fight at all. Why doesn’t he just roll over and play dead like a good Republican?

    3. His rhetoric is way worse than the riots and burn it down rhetoric of the left. You nailed him good.

      1. One is a bunch of kids, and one is the president.

        1. “One is a bunch of kids”

          Like ISIS was the JV team?

    4. “Isn’t it amazing that one can say Trump is responsible for so much good yet he is never at fault for the bad things?”

      Yes, that would be amazing, but all the stuff that lefty shits try to blame on him, well, they’re all lies.
      Fuck off and die.

    5. Free speech is dangerous.

    6. Isn’t it amazing that one can say Trump is responsible for so much good yet he is never at fault for the bad things?

      So, do you wish the Governor had actually been kidnapped as long as it made Trump look worse?

      Asking for my friend, Agen… I mean Mr. Smith.

    7. Name something ‘bad’ that is Trump’s fault.

      I can name a few. The tariffs for example.

      The rest of the MSMs argument, that I have seen, is BS lefty lies.

      1. We’re assured he’s to blame for 200,000 deaths, but no one ever comes up with any mechanism to explain that.
        Sorta like jackass whining about how ‘doing something about cliamate change’ is gonna make all those nasty wild fires disappear.

        1. Yep. Original estimates were 2 million dead.

          Trump kept it to < 20% of that.

          Trump!

          Best president in 50 years.

        2. I don’t support Trump, but he wasn’t the one who ordered nursing homes to accept coronavirus patients, it was several incompetent left-wing dictators (including Whitmer, who has shown an incredible lack of self-awareness). And that 200,000 figure is phony because it conflates people who died WITH coronavirus with those who died OF coronavirus.

    8. somehow Trump is divisive and an enemy of democracy because the other side refuses to accept the result of the election for 4 years, smears him with fake charges, tries to impeach him over their own corruption, and sends mobs of mostly peaceful protesters into the streets to burn, loot, destroy and intimidate.

      1. Burning, Looting Marxists

      2. We were warned that if Trump was elected, there would be more violence.
        He was, and the left delivered the violence.

    9. His rhetoric is nothing short of terrible and he directly inflames tensions wherever he can.

      Which, if true, would make Trump equivalent to essentially every public Dem or left winger.

      Biden: “They [Mitt Romney Republicans] want to put ya’ll [black Americans] back in chains”.

      It’s interesting that even as the entire Dem social and political effort is inflaming hatred none of the people whining about Trump ever have a word to say about it. Why would that be?

  19. You write an article about a keystone cops/Elmer Fudd kidnapping “plot”, but you can’t mention the daily discovery of ever more facts in the gross criminality of Hillary and her minions (Obama) prior and post 2016 election?

      1. Sarc or stupidity?
        I’m going with STOOOOPID.

      2. No, in this case it’s the confirmed notes of the CIA director at the time detailing a conspiracy to defraud the federal government and elections in conjunction with the previous administration and one of the candidates

        1. If Gillespie and Welch were libertarians, they’d be going for the Pulitzer on this story. But they’re not.

          1. It’s a story without likely competition from the MSM too. No need to shove aside, E.g., Jake Tapper to talk to witnesses.

            Sad.

      3. Hey, Chuck, I’ll give you credit, it’s pretty fucking bold to use your West Virginia government email address as your handle. It’s not that often that people deliberately dox themselves like that.

        The funniest part is that you’ve added to the ever-growing list of hicklibs that post here.

        1. turd has outed himself enough to make it clear that he is as despicable in reality as his persona here.

      4. You really are an ignorant partisan ideologue if you think this is about the email server.

        1. He didn’t even get to the illegal server; he claims it’s about some emails.

      5. If those emails had been yours, Hillary would be the first in line to hang you for them.

        You need better friends Charlie. Proggies will hang you out to dry and laugh at you and steal your shoes while you breathe your last.

  20. Interesting twist on the counter-speech doctrine. The best way to address rhetoric with which you disagree is more rhetoric. Or, to paraphrase David Mamet, “Always be politicizing.”

    1. Coffee is for politicizers.

  21. If by Trump’s rhetoric Whitmer means whatever Donald said that triggered the FBI to go all deep state and palace coup, that spilled over into field agent entrapment, and was reported by equally triggered media, then sure.

  22. While I’m sure most Trump voters in 2016 were not racist and xenophobic, ALL the Proud Boys, Patriot Prayer guys, Boogaloo Boys, white supremacists, Oath Keepers, etc. were 100% solidly behind Trump. With his election, they feel vindicated and empowered. Their antics will only get worse in the years to come, whether or not Trump is reelected. This stunt by the Wolverine Watchmen is emblematic of this.

    1. Trump’s victory in 2016 may be the only thing keeping the people on the radical right in check. Trump winning means that populists can still have a voice in spite of the elitists that control the rest of the government.

      When people on the right lose faith that their ideas and beliefs can have any influence on liberal institutions, they don’t lose faith in their ideas and beliefs. They just lose their faith in and tacit support for liberal institutions.

      In other words, to the extent they still have any faith in liberal institutions, it may only be because it’s still possible for someone like President Trump to win an election. Denying the right their influence isn’t the road to a liberal society. It’s the road to illegitimate government.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_(political)

      If you want a more liberal society, you must use persuasion.

      1. Damn good post, Ken.

      2. the IOW paragraph is spot on.

      3. We lock up terrorists in this country, if they’re lucky.

        1. ^ Liberal Institutions respond.

        2. We lock up terrorists in this country, if they’re lucky.

          Not for long though. Then as soon as we can we pardon or parole them and reward their loyalty to the cause with jobs in education and nonprofits so they can move into terrorism management.

    2. While I’m sure not all of that hag’s support was made up of brain-dead lefty shits, every brain-dead lefty shit was in her camp, as you can see from this brain-dead lefty shit. Their idiotic push for a planned economy will only get worse in years to come.
      Biden, Harris, AOC and Bernie are emblematic of this.

      Lefty shit? My version is true; you’re is a addled whining of a lefty shit.

    3. Delusional progressives unite.

    4. You know, I probably shouldn’t be surprised that you set up shop right next to a high school, considering how many radical left-wingers turn out to be pedophiles and sex pests.

      I suspect you and your fellow hicklib Buttplug up there would get along famously–he got banned for posting kiddie porn and had to set up a new account.

    5. The boogaloo bois are a meme gone live to fuck with dimwits, much like the okay hand sign being a ‘white power’ symbol. The proud Boys have a ethnic minority membership of roughly 15%. Patriot Prayer and the Oath Keepers are similarly ethnically diverse but smeared as white nationalists. The claim that Trump’s election emboldened any group is one that can be shown with facts, but not facts that support your claim -Antifa is not just an idea. Your assertion that ‘their antics will only get worse’ seems unlikely, as right-wing groups, although portrayed as violent, tend to obey the law. The outliers are an issue.

      1. At some point the law, or the rule of law, ceases to be legitimate when it routinely abused and selectively applied.

    6. When Harris cracks down on them, she probably will provoke a few groups to get worse, then she’ll say she told us so.

    7. With his election, they feel vindicated and empowered. This stunt by the Wolverine Watchmen is emblematic of this.

      This is proven false by the fact that similar stunts predate Trump’s involvement in electoral politics. The simple truth is that you left wingers are only interested in advancing the narrative and thus don’t actually care if your nonsense theories are true or not.

    8. So, would it be fair to say that if Biden wins all the antifa and other Marxist and/or quasi Marxist groups will be empowered and emboldened, and that *their* antics will only get worse?

  23. According to the affidavit, militiamen believed Whitmer and other state governors who had implemented strict lockdowns were violating the U.S. Bill of Rights and should be tried as traitors.

    Well, they were. And they should. Just not by some small group of nutters.

    1. I agree this is treason and the hangings should begin but remember, the US revolution was fought by 3% of the population.

      It is always small groups that impose the constitution upon the government.

      The law is silent in times of war. This is war. Either small groups of patriots impose the US Constitution or we lose it forever.

      If the US Constitution is to be imposed we will have to do so against the FBI.

      1. Unfortunately, far less than 3% of the population is willing to do anything at this point. And a bigger part of the population needs to at least passively support the action of those actually fighting.
        I don’t think it’s a bad idea because it’s against the law. I think it’s a bad idea because it will end up harming the cause and providing propaganda for the other side. Another thing you should do in war is avoid battles you are not likely to win.

        1. Not sure about the 3%.

          The $64,000 question then is when? When are we more likely to win than today? Certainly not if Biden gets control of the military. CCP already controls the media so propaganda is assured regardless.

          Obama split the military already. Trump can only control 30% to 50% of the military due to the treasonous “resistance” to the Constitution.

          When would be a better time?

          1. I don’t know. I’m not sure anyone ever does.

              1. We are headed into a contested election.

                The side who owns the FBI will win.

                Between Nov 4 and Jan 25 it will be over.

                The fate of the free world hangs in the balance and your vote means less than nothing.

                1. Every vote for Trump makes their job slightly harder.

                  1. Yep.

                    I didn’t vote for Trump in 2016. I don’t like him.

                    However, he has proven to be the best president in my life time for keeping his promises and after the Russia coup, the impeachment and now Antifa and the riots he has earned my respect.

                    I still don’t like him, but I do respect him FAR more than any other candidate out there. FAR FAR more than Biden or Harris or Romney.

                    I can’t wait to vote for Trump in 2020.

                    1. Need an edit button…

                      My vote is a hail Mary.

                      My rifles, armor, training and ammo are the things I have and will depend on.

                      Being able to vote the Commies away though is, IMO, a pipe dream.

        2. all battles start somewhere and i think the left already started it and is winning, they have the media and most of the government including teh FBI like someone else noted why wast time on small time militia member when there are thousands of BLM/Antifa to go after.

  24. Let me try my hand at headline writing.
    “FBI conspiracy to distract from fascist governor yields minor results from socialist propagandists”

    1. ^^This^^

      The FBI had years to infiltrate ANTIFA and we have burning, looting and rioting in the streets. Attempts to stop it have been met with violent force from police and FBI.

      This is a Communist takeover in progress. Whitmer is a traitor. The FBI has committed multiple acts of treason as well.

      Either we start imposing the Constitution by force or we are headed to the gulag one by one.

      1. Either we start imposing the Constitution by force or we are headed to the gulag one by one.

        Or both of those things could happen. I think it’s still time for speech and persuasion. Civil wars rarely end well. I think that most people still don’t quite see what’s happening and that there is some hope that saner voices will step in. Maybe I’m too optimistic, but the alternatives are very bad.

        1. And your evidence for optimism is… the amount of resistance to lock downs and mask mandates?

        2. I still hope there is time for speech and persuasion but I’m not risking my life, my liberty or my sacred honor on it.

          Won’t be a civil war if the government employees accept the Constitution as they swore to do.

          I have no beef with government employees who abide by the Constitution.

          We have a duty to capture or kill those who do not.

  25. Soave is strawmanning Whitmer’s argument. She did not say Trump was the underlying cause. She gave the vanilla “comforting the enemy” argument that the right gives all the time about the left. A leader’s job is to condemn negative elements in society, something Trump does the opposite. Just because you cannot prove there is causation does not make his rhetoric neutral or something to dismiss.

    The right has a problem. They denounce the emergency powers of governors but to what alternative? Let a pandemic spiral out of control? They refuse to use legislatures to implement appropriate strategies. It is mostly just complaints and the refusal to take on any difficult leadership positions. It’s always easy to criticize the government and then feast on its carcass. I suppose the militias will be happy in a mad max world where there will only be a recycled economy and the best jobs will be security guards for warlords. This is what happens when we give in to infantile dreams.

    1. Whitmer is comforting the enemy and supporting a Communist revolution by violating the US Constitution with her illegal executive orders.

      She meets the explicit definition of traitor in the US Constitution.

      Hang the bitch.

    2. “They refuse to use legislatures to implement appropriate strategies.”

      Whitmer refused to allow the legislature to have any say in the decisions. There was a whole state Supreme Court decision about it. You should know what is going on before you expose your ignorance.

    3. “…A leader’s job is to condemn negative elements in society, something Trump does the opposite…”
      We can assume you find antifa a positive element?
      Strike ONE!

      “…The right has a problem. They denounce the emergency powers of governors but to what alternative? Let a pandemic spiral out of control?..”
      Yeah, that damn right-winger Cuomo sure showed us how the lefty keeps control of the pandemic.
      Strike TWO!

      “…They refuse to use legislatures to implement appropriate strategies. It is mostly just complaints and the refusal to take on any difficult leadership positions…”
      Let’s see, Newsom, Cuomo, Whitmer and Murphy will probably dislike you calling them right-wingers.
      Strike THREE! You’re OUT OF HERE!!!!

    4. The pandemic spread wasn’t stopped by the unlawful lockdown orders. That’s like defending the unlawful War on Drugs by saying if we didn’t have it there would be drugs on the street.

    5. Now now, to accurately represent an argument from someone on Team Blue automatically makes you a left-wing radical Marxist traitor. As we all know, the appropriate responses whenever anyone on the right-wing acts badly, is to (a) deflect, (b) claim it’s fake news, (c) WHATABOUTANTIFA, (d) claim it’s the “deep state”, or (e) minimize the badness.

      1. “Now now, to accurately represent an argument from someone on Team Blue automatically makes you a left-wing radical Marxist traitor…”

        Who do you think takes that sort of steaming pile of bullshit seriously?
        Your momma? Your dog? You, when you’re drunk enough to be falling down?

        1. Chemjeff definitely seems like more of a cat… person

      2. BTW, you pathetic excuse for a sentient being, read two posts up where each of his points is taken apart.

    6. They denounce the emergency powers of governors but to what alternative? Let a pandemic spiral out of control?

      I’ll supply one piece for you: we call this “Begging the Question.”

      I’ll leave it for you to figure out what the question is that you’re begging.

    7. The right has a problem. They denounce the emergency powers of governors but to what alternative? Let a pandemic spiral out of control? They refuse to use legislatures to implement appropriate strategies. It is mostly just complaints and the refusal to take on any difficult leadership positions. It’s always easy to criticize the government and then feast on its carcass.

      It’s revealing exactly zero left wingers including you made this defense of Trump’s efforts to stop the rioting.

    8. I’d rather fight the virus than the government.

      That is the specific purpose of the US Constitution, to ensure that no governor has any emergency powers that remove rights without a fair trial.

      Whitmer is a traitor. Hang the bitch.

  26. So, Soave, this whole event prods you to excoriate Whitmer. According to you, she never was in harm (are you really serious?), and shame on her for suggesting Trump’s words played a role. Are you real sure they didn’t?

    Certainly to be expected from this website. Blame the intended victim, particularly if it involves militias with guns.

    Soave, did you pay any attention to what has occurred here, even in the slightest? A duly elected governor was the target of a kidnapping plot, one in which she was to be taken to a secure location to stand trial. Do you think that any armed militia that kidnapped anyone, no less a governor, and whisked them away to stand trial wasn’t intending life threatening harm? And the plot was much more…attack the State House, target the homes of law enforcement, and much more.

    But it’s armed militias and military weapons…gotta point to something else as the issue, right? You’re a disgrace.

    There are times this website sinks real low, Soave…you’re the epitome of that honor.

    1. Whitmer is a traitor.

      Hang the bitch.

    2. Hey, jackass! Do I say ‘fight climate change!’ three times while patting myself on the head to make the nasty wildfires go away?
      Did I get it right?

    3. “There are times this website sinks real low, Soave…”

      Yes, it sank when your sorry ass showed up again. How can we miss you when you won’t stay away? And I mean it, you stinking pile of lefty shit.

    4. A duly elected governor was the target of a kidnapping plot

      Yeah, one apparently discussed by a bunch of anti-cop, anti-Trump anarchists.

      You might want to let this one drop, stupid.

    5. Not surprising that you are sure she was at risk and that this article is victim-blaming. If the Feds say Whitmer was never at risk due to their presence and involvement, then, those six scary men with scary guns who had been under constant surveillance were not going to accomplish anything. Instead of accusing Soave of not paying attention, perhaps you could focus on the details. There was a plan, that was monitored by law enforcement through all stages. The group discussed and discarded the idea of attacking the State House, police in their homes. All members were under surveillance. The six men were arrested for conspiracy. All the rest is your biases and inability to accept facts outside in-group narratives.

      Your claim about attacking the State House, LEOs, all of this was discarded early on, so get your facts straight.

      1. Peaking of facts, read and weep, genius.

        “Six men were charged in federal court with conspiring to kidnap the governor before the Nov. 3 elections in reaction to what they viewed as her “uncontrolled power,” according to a federal complaint. Separately, seven others linked to a paramilitary group called the Wolverine Watchmen were charged in state court for allegedly seeking to storm the Michigan Capitol and seek a “civil war.”

        https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/10/9/21509246/gretchen-whitmer-kidnapping-charged

        It’s 13 men, but then, idiots like you can’t keep up. And yeah, they were going to attack the State House, dopey. Oh, so it was monitored by law enforcement, eh? And law enforcement never makes a mistake, and monitoring never goes wrong, right? Gee, you must not be a libertarian. Well, you’re a phony one anyway.

        If it was your wife I’m really sure you’d be saying, “meh, nothing to worry about.” Idiot.

        1. Gee, jackass found a source saying 13 men instead of 6, and then armwaves the rest of your statement.
          Real shmart, ain’t jackass here?

          1. Whitmer’s staties arrested an additional 7 people “in connection” with the 6 the feds got

        2. “And law enforcement never makes a mistake, and monitoring never goes wrong, right?”

          “But we can 100% believe their story!”

        3. If Whitmer were my wife, I’d hang the traitor.

    6. Blame the intended victim, particularly if it involves militias with guns.

      Now do Aaron Danielson.

      1. Who was murdered for purely political motives in an organized and planned-in-advance hit with a minimum of a half dozen participants.
        No apparent interest from the FBI.

        1. “No apparent interest from the FBI.”

          Nope. It was one of their own who committed the murder. It was done to spark a response that the left could use to demonize Trump but it didn’t work.

          1. It was one of their own who committed the murder. It was done to spark a response that the left could use to demonize Trump but it didn’t work.

            I think your medications may need adjustment.

              1. Oh, I don’t doubt that that sort of thing happens. I’m just more of an “Ockham’s Razor” type.

            1. Dude, the FBI has been murdering Americans since its inception.
              https://time.com/3665643/deadly-drinking/

              IMO, the Stasi and KGB were modeled after the FBI.

      2. Now do LaVoy Finnecum.

  27. Tim McVeigh was right.

    The FBI and police are progressive, socialist constructs.

    Support your local sheriff. Abolish the police and Trump needs to exterminate the FBI with extreme prejudice.

    1. Nice try Jeff, but you’re still no parodist like OBL.

      1. It’s not me, and it’s not a parody.

  28. Let a pandemic spiral out of control?

    Like Sweden did? That was terrible, they’re still picking up their millions of dead. Well, at least they can afford it because they didn’t kill their economy like the rest of us.

    1. Have you even once consulted a chart comparing Sweden’s outcomes to other countries?

      Advocate for a more-death policy if you want, but stop pretending like Sweden is some kind of success story. It didn’t have any economic benefits from its more-death approach.

      1. It’s better than some and worse than others on deaths per population. You are totally full of shit on the economics. Yeah, they took a hit because the whole fucking world lost its mind. But they didn’t destroy their domestic economy, or force mass unemployment and business closures.

      2. Have you even once consulted a chart comparing Sweden’s outcomes to other countries?

        Have you ever consulted a chart comparing Sweden’s outcomes to all other countries, rather than a select few?

        1. It’s just totally nonsensical to hold it up as a success story. You’re picking the one country that tried an alternative more-death-faster strategy and declaring it a success despite the actual data. This is absurd.

          1. Tony
            October.9.2020 at 12:38 pm

            Have you even once consulted a chart comparing Sweden’s outcomes to other countries?

            Advocate for a more-death policy if you want, but stop pretending like Sweden is some kind of success story.

            No one called Sweden a “success story.” You decided that’s what people are saying, king of the straw man that you are. Sweden’s outcomes aren’t particularly noteworthy compared to other countries’.

            What is noteworthy is that they didn’t shut down at all, and still have outcomes that aren’t particularly noteworthy compared to other countries’.

            1. Except for the more death.

              1. Except for the more death.

                Have you ever consulted a chart comparing Sweden’s outcomes to all other countries, rather than a select few?

                You have the attention span of a gnat.

                1. I didn’t say it was the worst in the world. I’m criticizing the claim that there is some rational reason to emulate their approach.

                  1. Because it made no discernable difference to the death toll, and didn’t destroy their economy and strip people of their rights.

      3. stop pretending like Sweden is some kind of success story. It didn’t have any economic benefits from its more-death approach.

        The point is not that Sweden’s experience is better than any ohter country, but rather that it is firmly within the normal range. If the alarmists were correct it would be an outlier.

        Sweden’s position mirrors that of the US where different states enacted different policies at different times. The states with the most lenient policies have similar growth patterns as those with the most restrictive. This suggests the lockdowns and other policies had little if any effect on the virus spreading.

        But whether the lockdowns were effective is simply irrelevant to left wingers. All they care about is the opportunity for political propaganda.

        1. Progressives offer a minimum-death strategy plus economic aid to get the economy through it.

          This is in contrast to the Trump “miracle” approach that got 35 people in the White House infected last week.

          1. Progressives offer a minimum-death strategy plus economic aid to get the economy through it.

            “Economic aid” comes from somewhere, it is not a net benefit. Nor is the progressive strategy to minimize death unless we consider all plans minimum death. The data shows their actions had no effect on the death rates. Thus an accurate summary of the progressive plan is “maximum economic cost for no gains in deaths”.

            This is a good example of progressive plans for pretty much everything: exorbitant costs for only propaganda benefits.

  29. “Something happens. Democrat/Republican blames Republican/Democrat.”

    Fascinating.

  30. “Our head of state has spent the past seven months stoking distrust, fomenting anger, and giving comfort to those who spread fear and hatred and division,” said the Democratic governor.”

    NO it is you a the democrats and MSM spreading Hate.

    1. And Trump could have said “Michigan’s head of state has spent the past seven months stoking distrust, fomenting anger, and giving comfort to those who spread fear and hatred and division.” And it would ALSO have been accurate.

      1. Ron, was not disagreeing with you, was riffing of the quote you included.

  31. She’d get far more traction blaming her own party’s rhetoric for every malady afflicting the black community.

  32. nobody kidnaps a governor this whole thing is stupid.

    1. I was going to fix it for you with ‘nobody holds a governor responsible’, but then I remembered Blagojevich.

      The whole thing is still stupid. You are dead on about that.

  33. Does anyone else find it amusing that the alleged plan was to kidnap her at her vacation home?

    I thought those were closed to Michiganders . . .

    1. She called Nancy for some tips.

      1. Speaking of…

        http://twitter.com/Timcast/status/1314596306241847298?s=19
        “a process for future presidents”

        lol she straight talking about Biden yo

        they are guna remove Biden under the 25th and Kamala is going to be the one to invoke it

    2. yeah, right after she ordered people not to go to their vacation homes, her husband went to their vacation home and was trying to get priority to launch his boat since his wife was the governor.

      at least Biden didn’t pick Whitmer as VP. even Harris is better.

      1. I thought for sure he was going to do it, MI being a battleground state and all. Guess he needed to pander more to minorities, and Abrams was a step too far even for him.

        1. He didn’t pick his VP.
          I suspect 44 did.

  34. Obviously the way to get rid of Whitmer is at the ballot box, and to try to stop her unlawful edicts in the courts. Federal civil rights charges against her and other governors who deny their citizens the basic civil rights to work and travel would also be fitting, but professional courtesy stops politicians from going after each other for criminal charges.

    But governors didn’t need security details and protocols and armed compounds before. They were considered kindly local officials, who might try to recruit businesses to the state, or help out small towns with state aid when they were hit by a flood or tornado.

    But when they start acting like mini-dictators, telling people where they can go and if they can work or operate their business and what they can do, it’s not surprising that they need to take security precautions like real dictators do.

    1. This woman is a tyrant who is destroying thousands of people’s life’s work. You start destroying people’s businesses and way of life, some of them are not going to take it lying down. A few of them might want to kill you over it.

      But someone like Wittmer is so stupid and her understanding of the world so far removed from reality, that never occurs to her. She honestly thinks she can destroy people’s businesses and jobs and condemn then and their families to poverty and everyone will think it is great because she is trying to do the right thing.

      1. Whitmer was calling the anti-lockdown protestors from a few months ago Nazis since some of their signs had swastikas.

        But the swastikas were from the protesters calling Whitmer a Nazi.

        1. Whitmer is engaging in a more widespread version of kristalnacht

    2. There will never be another legitimate election in the US again.

      Hillary ended faith in elections.

      This is war. The law is not in effect.

      If we are to impose the Constitution will have to do it by force of arms over the bodies of tens of thousands of these “resistance” traitors.

      1. Nobody here is going to see your post. They have a magical blind spot to their own pro-violence rhetoric and encouragement of such. It’s remarkable.

        1. A rare moment when Tony is right.

          1. No, he isn’t.
            There is no blindspot.
            There is consideration.

            1. Just come out as a fascist already, man. At least be honest about it.

              1. You clearly don’t know what the term means, but parrot it like an obedient little leftist.

        2. It seems much like the left’s refusal to address the riots, violence, and murders by BLMAntifa with one major difference: their events are actions and this guy is all talk.

          But lecture us more on why words mean more.

          1. Our leader has addressed it on multiple occasions. He has condemned all violence and looting. What about yours? Has he condemned rightwing terrorism, or is he asking that they kindly stand by and harass voters who don’t look like they might vote for him?

            1. He has condemned all violence and looting. What about yours?

              Me personally, I don’t consider Trump my leader, as I consider myself my leader, but I think even you have to admit that Trump has condemned violence and looting repeatedly. In fact, people on the left have been complaining that he’s been so too much.

              Has he condemned rightwing terrorism

              Yes. Now, I’m not sure I’d say he shares your definition of who does and who doesn’t count as a “rightwing terrorist,” but you’re the guy who doesn’t think barricading occupied buildings and setting them on fire for political reasons is “terrorism” but some anti-police anarchists half-assedly talking through a plot to kidnap a governor is “rightwing terrorism” and a “major threat.”

            2. or is he asking that they kindly stand by and harass voters who don’t look like they might vote for him?

              Like a number of prominent Democratic politicians have encouraged people to do?

            3. Our leader has addressed it on multiple occasions.

              You’re referring to the person who waited 6 months to address it and only did so when not doing so was hurting him in the polls? It’s interesting taking 6 months to do something no one should have a problem doing immediately earns your support – as long as he started out an ally. Sometimes it almost seems every one of your positions is predetermined by whether it helps or hurts Team Blue.

            4. Your leader?!?!

              You are an AMERICAN!

              AMERICANS HAVE NO LEADER

              We have representation. If we have taxation without representation we leave or we hang the tax man. Then we build a representative government for ourselves.

              It’s the American way since 1776.

    3. This is a bizarre moment. I don’t recall a moment in my life where a sitting Michigan governor drew such an emotional response. It’s obviously fueled by the climate we’re in.

      You can’t have a rational discussion about COVID, masks, or lockdowns. It’s a partisan issue and there is no middle ground. You’re either “all in” – masks, line and sinker – or you’re associated in some way with the Wolverine Militia and Trump.

      Unfortunately, there will be no resolution until one of the sides gets its way. Seeing how Pearl Jam, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, and Kamala Harris have locked arms and resources to oust Trump, I am pretty certain of the outcome.

      1. “Unfortunately, there will be no resolution until one of the sides gets its way. Seeing how Pearl Jam, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, and Kamala Harris have locked arms and resources to oust Trump, I am pretty certain of the outcome.”

        And further misfortune regards what we get if Biden is elected; the ‘new normal’ is not going to be pretty, nor anything like the constitution intended.

        1. I don’t think the election will matter.

          The “new normal” will never look like the Constitution intended until We the People impose it.

        2. New Normal = Soviet-Nazi USA

  35. You are missing an ellipsis in your quote of Whitmer. Here is the actual full quote according to the NYT, with square brackets indicating the missing section. “Just last week, the president of the United States stood before the American people and refused to condemn [white supremacists and] hate groups like these two Michigan militia groups. Stand back and stand by, he told them.”

    Leaving out the ellipsis is as editing error, but it shouldn’t be left out at all. It’s an important omission. The kidnap planners don’t appear to be white supremacists (I may be missing information), and the proud boys unquestionably aren’t. Sot it’s a lie about the president, and about the people planning the kidnapping.

    1. Boogaloo boys are often but not always white supremacists.

      1. So are elves.

      2. Boogaloo boys are almost exclusively seen at blmantifa protests allied with them

        1. Nobody here is on Antifa’s side dude. While I am anti-fascist, as you should be, I trust our criminal justice system to handle any illegal activity, if anything, too efficiently.

          1. I trust our criminal justice system to handle any illegal activity

            Then you’re not paying attention.

            1. Well, the president’s crimes excluded.

              1. Along with Antifa’s.

    2. http://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/trump-has-condemned-white-supremacists/

      And since that factcheck was posted…

      President Donald Trump condemned “all White supremacists” Thursday evening after pointedly refusing to do so at Tuesday’s presidential debate and in the days since.

      “I condemn the KKK, I condemn all White supremacists, I condemn the Proud Boys. I don’t know much about the Proud Boys, almost nothing, but I condemn that,” Trump told Fox News’ Sean Hannity,

      1. Third time’s the charm.

        1. Third time’s the charm.

          You think the left-wing media is going to acknowledge that he condemned white supremacists now? Oh, you poor thing.

          1. A fucking President shouldn’t take three attempts to condemn Nazis.

            1. “Condemn Nazis” or “Condemn Person/Group x as Nazis even though they’re no such thing”?

              1. If I wanted to be gaslit I’d call my ex-boyfriend.

                It’s gross enough that you’re spending time out of your life defending that fat sack of disease. But to pretend that he doesn’t have a symbiotic relationship with far-right groups? Come on.

                If something is good to you then you should not be ashamed to defend it.

                1. It’s gross enough that you’re spending time out of your life defending that fat sack of disease.

                  I don’t really care about Trump. He’s a jackass. What I tire of getting showered with bullshit every day for five years running.

                  But to pretend that he doesn’t have a symbiotic relationship with far-right groups?

                  Please detail which Nazi groups he supports.

                2. If I wanted to be gaslit I’d call my ex-boyfriend.

                  So that’s who you learned it from.

                3. But to pretend that he doesn’t have a symbiotic relationship with far-right groups? Come on.

                  It’s amazing you say this while pretending the same isn’t true of Dems and antifa and the rest of the far left.

                  1. Trust me the Democrats would not shed a tear of Antifa disappeared tomorrow.

                    1. Now that antifa went public and hurt Dems politically sure Dems wish they weren’t around. But will Dems give up the hate-mongering and indoctrination which created and maintains antifa? Of course not, because the hatemongering and absurd misinterpretations of reality which create antifa also create reliable Dem voters. This is why liberals are always surprised when antifa applies the standards liberals use to demonize others to liberals. Everyone is supposed to realize when they grow up this is only theater. The message isn’t supposed to be taken seriously which is why people like you never apply the standards you create to yourselves.

                      This is the same reason you try to minimize antifa rather than oppose it. You prefer not to have the negative reaction to antifas extremism blow back on “liberals” but ultimately they’re a result of a process you support.

          2. He designated the KKK as officially a terrorist organization

        2. It doesn’t matter how many times or how vehemently he condemns them and disavows any desire of support from them. The left will say that he doesn’t mean it and that his words are really coded “dog whistle” calls for the racists to rally for him.

          At some point, it becomes “Why bother?”

            1. Ah, so now we’ve changed from “he hasn’t condemned white supremacists” to “I can think of ways in which he maybe could have done so more vehemently than he did.”

              A true Nazi, that one.

          1. The left is psychotic and totalitarian.
            There is no reasoning with them since they literally deny reality.

            1. If your opponent can’t be reasoned with, the only solution is violence. If your solution to the current political climate is to enact violence against millions of people who have committed no crime, then you have no right to call anyone psychotic.

              1. You’re continue to use words you don’t understand.
                Psychosis is the state of mistaking your fantasy for reality, and acting accordingly.
                For example: 2+2=5.
                If you’d like to argue why self defense to the violence already being waged against Americans is inappropriate to the situation, go ahead.
                I disagree, and don’t think totalitarian leftists will stop of their own volition.
                But it seems you’re incapable of presenting a rational argument and don’t have the balls to take a firm position.
                It which case, sit down and shut the fuck up while the rest of us discuss the current condition we find ourselves in.

  36. You mean turning your state into a totalitarian police state for months on end might drive some people over the edge and cause them to want to kill you? Who knew?

    1. Here’s the thing–the guys who supposedly plotted this are turning out to be a bunch of anti-cop, anti-Trump anarchists. This whole operation glows brighter than the sun, and it’s certainly having its intended effect as Whitmer is getting sympathy now for supposedly being the target of a “right-wing” plot.

      With that said, any governor that’s intent on enforcing a personal edict based on the “fuck you that’s why” principle, better be aware that such an action may not be taken kindly when the legal system that’s supposed to guide their governance is ignored, despite that legal system saying, “you need to stop this shit.” If Trump has to follow these rules whenever a judge decides that the executive orders of his predecessor are immutable, but his are illegal, Whitmer certainly shouldn’t be allowed to act as an exception, either.

      This whole episode just reinforces the fact that the left never acts in good faith and will always exercise a double standard while demanding that their enemies follow the rules to the letter. THAT’S what’s increasing the risk of a no-shit civil war kicking off.

      1. From your comments, I suspect you’re in Michigan as well and agree with you one hundred percent, particularly your first paragraph. Judging from the media, there is a full-on Whitmer lovefest taking place. I’m expecting the supreme court majority to reverse themselves sua sponte.

        Considering we’re only into early-Week 2 of October, it’s becoming morbidly entertaining what for the next “October Surprises” to be rolled out. Maybe a high profile arrest, Biden gets COVID, a new more lethal strain of COVID and the lockdowns that will ensue, a terrorist bombing of a U.S. embassy in the Middle East with suspected Iranian involvement, Kevin Spacey admitting publicly that he’s always been gay?

        1. [I wish they had an editing function]. “… waiting for the next “October Surprises” to be rolled out,” I meant say.

      2. You need to stop consuming far-right YouTube videos dude. You haven’t the slightest idea of how unhinged you are.

        But only unhinged for one side. If leftists dare engage in street violence you are all over that shit. Totally illegitimate right?

        Propaganda-addled boogaloo boys sparking civil war because they’re bored—don’t say you didn’t warn us!

        What psychotic cunts you are!

        1. You need to stop projecting your own neuroses and guessing what kind of media people consooooooome. Your clairvoyance skills suck ass more than a porn star.

          If leftists dare engage in street violence you are all over that shit.

          Don’t engage in street violence and you won’t get a reactionary response.

          Propaganda-addled boogaloo boys sparking civil war because they’re bored

          Thanks for admitting that boogaloo boys are anti-cop and anti-Trump, if the video evidence of their own words is anything to go by.

          What psychotic cunts you are!

          “It’s not fascism when we do it” is the ultimate in psychosis.

          1. You can keep trying to paint me as supportive of left wing activist vandalism, and I’ll keep reminding you that I’ve never once suggested that I am. I was against the BLM protests during a pandemic from the start.

            So do you think elected officials should be murdered for enforcing laws you don’t like, or will you join me in condemning all political violence?

            1. Whitmer is breaking the law and ruining people’s lives and forsaking her oath during a time of civil unrest. She’s a walking, talking felony in progress.

              We don’t want to hang her. We have to

            2. You can keep trying to paint me as supportive of left wing activist vandalism, and I’ll keep reminding you that I’ve never once suggested that I am.

              It’s interesting people like Tony pretend to believe political support is only proven if they openly state it – when convenient at least. But compare this to their accusations of White Supremacy. Suddenly open admissions are not the standard. Saying he’s never stated support for violence – an illegitimate standard – is an attempt to obscure whether he passes appropriate standards.

            3. will you join me in condemning all political violence?

              When you do, I’m sure people will join you.

              But by your own standards for Trump’s condemnations of white supremacists and Nazis, you have never come within a light year of condemning “all political violence.”

            4. So do you think elected officials should be murdered for enforcing laws you don’t like, or will you join me in condemning all political violence?

              Hey fuckhead, the Michigan Supreme Court just declared her actions unconstitutional, and she flat-out said she was going to ignore them and keep up her edicts through extra-legal means.

              Thanks for confirming that ” the left never acts in good faith and will always exercise a double standard while demanding that their enemies follow the rules to the letter. “

          2. “Your clairvoyance skills suck ass more than a porn star.”

            DAMN that is funny!!!

      3. Whitmer is getting sympathy now for supposedly being the target of a “right-wing” plot.

        What is hilarious, is the only reason this is reflexively getting labelled ‘right wing’ is that Whitmer is so far fucking left that nobody can imagine it wasn’t a right wing group that wanted her gone.

        Same thing with the proud boys. If they oppose antifa, they must be far right. They appear pretty damn centered to me. Antifa is just so far gone fucking Marxist that everybody looks right in comparison.

        1. Opposing collectivist tyranny is now an exclusively right wing position.

    2. Keep exaggerating hysterically like this and then playing the innocent when more people commit and attempt to commit violence against government officials.

      I would have to go back and look, but I wonder if you ever blamed Democrats for any recent street protests and perhaps vandalism. Think that’s the case?

      1. Just where exactly do you think this is all headed, tony?

        1. You crying into a tin of cake frosting?

          1. So you haven’t thought about it

      2. The political class should fear the people. When they go as far as they have to disenfranchise people, the threat of physical violence is the only avenue left. The people of Michigan are in perpetual lockdown. Should they have to wait years to get their natural rights back?

        What these dipshits should have done is mailed her pictures from a rifle-sight camera with her head in the crosshairs. That would have sent the message without landing them in prison for the rest of their lives.

        1. That’s the main lesson of Livy, which I first realized while reading Discourses on Live by Machiavelli.
          The Roman republic worked because the elites would continue pressing boundaries until the Roman people had enough and put them in check. This was possible because no matter how wealthy a patrician may be, he still lived in close proximity to the plebs.
          But as they conquered territory outside the Italian peninsula and expanded into an empire, the Roman ruling class gained more and more ability to separate themselves from the masses. Removed from that physical threat, there was no longer a check on their abuse except from other elites.
          This was untenable, and led to Marius, Sulla, and eventually the Caesars.

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  38. They’re not “militia” or “domestic terrorists”…they’re “mostly peaceful protesters”. I’m of the understanding now that “mostly peaceful protesters” can get away with pretty much anything up to and perhaps including murder, so what’s the big deal?

  39. OT:
    “Citing 25th Amendment, Pelosi, Raskin move to create panel that could rule on president’s fitness for office”
    https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Citing-25th-Amendment-Pelosi-Raskin-move-to-15632159.php

    I’m guessing this is an effort to have it set up in case Biden wins.

    1. Wow, she’s really going through with this?

      These fuckers really do seem determined to provoke a civil war.

      1. Well, that impeachment worked out great, so she’s doubling down.

      2. Why would you start a civil war over a piece of legislation passed under normal order?

        Thanks to the president’s recent health issues and apparent mental breakdown, we’ve all learned about the gaps in succession law. It’s not like they’re going to pass this and apply it to Trump in the next 30 days. So why do you want to commit mass violence against your fellow citizens again?

        And why did you spend months and years shitting your girl undies over street skirmishes if you think a full on civil war might be justified?

        1. Why would you start a civil war over a piece of legislation passed under normal order?

          Considering this “commission” has no authority to remove a sitting President under the Constitution, it’s pretty obvious what this is all about.

          So why do you want to commit mass violence against your fellow citizens again?

          Why do you and your allies continue provoking mass violence? Is it okay if I come to your Oklahoma shithole and throw a brick through your window as long as I’m chanting “Black Lives Matter” while doing so?

          And why did you spend months and years shitting your girl undies over street skirmishes if you think a full on civil war might be justified?

          The lack of self-awareness here is astonishing.

          1. Answer my question with a statement, not a question.

            The problem you have is that Biden has repeatedly condemned street violence while Trump has promoted the very paranoid atmosphere leading to rightwing terrorism. And don’t pretend that he’s an innocent. “It’s pretty obvious what this is about.”

            1. The problem we have is that Bernie bros started all the violence to impact the election and the Commie media lie about who is at fault and the purpose of the violence.

              Trump is the reason the Commies are burning and looting and murdering. They hate him and cannot tolerate the US Constitution, individual human rights, liberty or justice.

              Commie violence is why Americans are starting to fight back.

              Biden is irrelevant and has been since Bernie won CA. He won’t last 60 days in office before Willie’s cum dumpster takes him out.

            2. Answer my question with a statement, not a question.

              You’re begging the question, so it’s not worth answering.

              The problem you have is that Biden has repeatedly condemned street violence while Trump has promoted the very paranoid atmosphere leading to rightwing terrorism.

              “Citation needed.” It is, after all, your allies destroying property and people’s homes. If you don’t consider that to be terrorism, that’s fine–but don’t be shocked when people who don’t agree with that stance express sympathy for the idea that anyone doing so should have their heads put on a pike.

    2. Like the court packing idea and the nuclear option on legislation idea being floated, if Trump wins and the Senate holds, wait for the outcry when Trump and Senate Republicans say “Hey those were good ideas!” and start moving forward on them. They should at least troll the Democrats with the notion.

      Democrats (Tim Kaine notably), after all, floated the idea of going nuclear right for SCOTUS right before he and Hillary lost, and have complained bitterly ever since Republicans went ahead with the notion.

      Harry Reid and Senate Democrats implemented the nuclear option for non-SCOTUS judges and other executive appointments, and have complained bitterly ever since Republicans took over the Senate and started pushing Trump’s nominees for vacant court seats (Obama left something like 125 seats vacant, so Trump got a huge head start there).

      Obama said “Elections have consequences” and “I have a pen and a phone” and have complained bitterly ever since they lost the important elections and Trump has used his “pen and phone”. Democrats have somehow managed largely to get some courts to say that Obama’s “pen and phone” orders cannot be overturned by Trump’s own orders.

      1. And we can look to FDR, that saint of lefty shits everywhere, for a real effort at packing the court.

      2. There are no more mere norms. There is power and the grabbing of it. Republicans are absolutely more at fault for that, and they’ll smile when they admit to it.

        As long as the majorities are being represented in this project I don’t have a problem with it. Democrats have some catching up to do. The real violation here is that Republicans are making policy via the courts because there is no democratic mandate for those policies.

          1. Of what? Right now Trump-appointed judges are focused heavily on ensuring that voting in the upcoming election is as difficult as possible, with some outlandishly absurd rulings that are clear about the goal being disenfranchisement.

            I’m a pacifist, but that’s the sort of suit that justifies revolution.

            1. What novel policies have they imposed?
              How do these policies differ from the laws that are and have been on the books?

            2. that’s the sort of suit that justifies revolution

              Tony
              October.9.2020 at 1:58 pm

              You can keep trying to paint me as supportive of left wing activist vandalism, and I’ll keep reminding you that I’ve never once suggested that I am. I was against the BLM protests during a pandemic from the start.

              So do you think elected officials should be murdered for enforcing laws you don’t like, or will you join me in condemning all political violence?

        1. First of all, we live in a republic specifically so we don’t have majority rule.

          Then what policies are you talking about?

          1. Y’all took something you learned in 8th grade civics about the constitution having checks on simple democracy and have extrapolated that to mean that Republicans always get their way regardless of the will of the people.

            We’ll get to the real problem later, which is that yes the founders imposed strong barriers to much of the population having a say in their own government, and that those are largely bad things that have to some degree been rectified.

            First you must read up on how the system actually works, and how democracies in general are supposed to work. There is no foundational argument for the electoral college or senate as they exist in a country of 350 million people spread from coast to coast. You like the system precisely because it is absurdly undemocratic.

            Yet as you have clearly argued, you are more than willing to murder people when things don’t go your way.

            1. It is kind of silly trying to have a strong national central government with 300+ million people across a few thousand miles making decisions for everyone beyond the most obvious, noncontroversial laws.

              I didn’t expect you to make that point, but I welcome the progress.

              1. It’s not a terribly strong national government with respect to domestic policy. But whatever it is, it should be elected by majorities instead of minorities.

                1. Thank goodness: the last thing I need is Biden telling me what to wear.

                  Democracy is fine as far as a group of people choosing to make decisions together. But that’s the thing: choosing. No one thinks is undemocratic that Chinese people can’t vote for the president, because we didn’t agree with the Chinese to do it that way. And, what with all this talk of illegitimacy of the president, the senate, etc, it would be foolish to assume that we should throw those away, yet maintain the assumption that we all agree to do democracy together. That’s just cherry picking.

                  Anyway, if we are to renovate the federal government to be less confined by a constitution: what is the template for that?

                  The countries by population are:
                  1 China 1,404 million
                  2 India 1,368 million
                  3 United States 330 million
                  4 Indonesia 269 million
                  5 Pakistan 220 million
                  6 Brazil 212 million
                  7 Nigeria 206 million
                  8 Bangladesh 169 million
                  9 Russia 146 million
                  10 Mexico 127 million

                  Which one do we pick? Or perhaps we go with Germany, #19 on the list, with ~80 million people?

                  I’m fine with renovating the government to look more like someone else’s, but then let’s not play pretend games that 300 million people across 10 million km^2 are supposed to share the same government: let’s divide it up.

                  How about, say, 50-57 states? And then you pick the one with the people you agree with the most. That’s freedom to choose right there.

            2. The Constitution is the result of the Declaration of Independence which itself is the result of things like the Magna Carta.

              Democracy was invented in Greece. Plato himself had some really great notions about democracy. Here is a short version.
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_five_regimes

              Read Tony. Read.

              Republics can last for hundreds or even thousands of years and the stability they create can lift millions of people out of slavery and despotism.

              Democracies fail and devolve into tyranny in short order.

              We live in a federal republic with individual, democratic states. The purpose of the feds is to keep the states from devolving into tyranny.

              The purpose of progressive socialism is to devolve a democracy into a tyrannical, communist dictatorship by creating a national government instead of a federal government.

            3. I’ve seen it referred to as “so 18th century” Coming from the left, it seems odd that they are decrying a mechanism for electing the US President that is almost identical to the mechanism used to elect the European President (President of the European Union). I say odd, because the left constantly holds the EU and their democratic socialist governments up as the shining examples the US should strive for (as in “in civilized countries like…”).

              In the federalist government we have in the USA, each State in the Union gets a say in the election of the President. Each State has its own distinct interests but also share common interests with other States. The total number of members of Congress each state has is the basis for the total number of votes for President each state has in the Electoral College. Since each State has two Senators and at least one Representative, each state receives a minimum of three votes, with California–the most populous State receiving the maximum of 55 votes. The number of Representatives is currently capped at 435 (the apportionment of Representatives to States is adjusted every 10 years, based on the census), and the number of Senators is currently 100 (as we have 50 States), and the District of Columbia is also given 3 votes for a total 538 which implies that 270 votes are needed to win the EC.

              Under the Constitution, each state is free to determine how they appoint their Electoral College voters and how they are supposed to vote. Currently, every State uses a popular election to select EC voters (and all but two use a winner-take-all method), but there’s nothing preventing a State from passing a law allowing the Governor to simply appoint whomever he chooses (i.e., no popular election) or from using a proportional assignment based on election results.

              The electors meet and cast their respective votes for President, and assuming there is a majority winner the process is just about complete. Let’s ignore the fall-back rules if no majority is obtained as it is outside this discussion.

              Virtually the same mechanism as the US Electoral College is used to elect the EU President, except it is the Parliament that elects the EU President and not a separate body specifically for the purpose. But the mechanism is very similar.

              In the EU, each member nation in the Union gets a say in the election of the President. Each member nation has its own distinct interests but also share common interests with other member nations. The total number of members of the European Parliament each member nation has is the basis for the total number of votes for President each member nation has. Each of the 28 member nations has at least 6 MEPs, with Germany–the most populous member nation–receiving the maximum of 96 votes. The number of MEPs is currently capped at 750 by treaty. Occasionally, the binding treaties are modified to reapportion the MEPs, this requires unanimous consent and generally reflects changes in membership and population shifts. The EU President is elected by the European Parliament by a majority of its component members (which corresponds to at least 376 out of 750 votes).

              MEPs are elected by popular elections in the respective member nations. At the appointed time, MEPs then vote for President, according to their respective party affiliation and national instructions.

              How odd that the modern EU, most members of which are democratic socialist states, chose to use this 18th century structure that is so very similar to our own EC mechanisms.

              1. Each EU country having a minimum number of MEP and a maximum number of MEP keeps the EU from being a “we do what Germany says” organization. Sure Germany has a lot of votes, like California, but not enough to win every election.

        2. “As long as the majorities are being represented in this project I don’t have a problem with it.”

          Old, white people?

    3. Pelosi specifically said this wasn’t about Trump, that it would apply to future Presidents. Given her age and her shaky grasp on reality, do you really expect Pelosi gives a shit about “future presidents” other than Biden? This is totally about making it easier to slide Biden out of the way, not Trump.

  40. So Whitmer only imposed draconian COVID restrictionists to fire up right-wing militias so the FBI could run a sting operation on them.

    Sound conspiracyish enough?

  41. “Gretchen Whitmer Blames Trump’s Rhetoric for the Plot To Kidnap Her”

    Her 7-month (and counting) campaign to turn Michigan into North Korea had nothing to do with it.

  42. “Our head of state has spent the past seven months stoking distrust, fomenting anger, and giving comfort to those who spread fear and hatred and division,” said the Democratic governor. “

    It’s an odd way to describe herself.

  43. Seems a lot like these guys took the hysterical rhetoric of the Republican covid messaging campaign and all of the pants-shitting on these comments boards to the logical next step. They’re in jail because you all are just pussies too afraid to act on the supposed tyranny of not being able to infect other people with a deadly bad painful respiratory disease we have no vaccine for.

    1. OK, that’s it; flagged

    2. Look at the mindless Russian bot expressing faux outrage and righteous indignation. Warms the heart.

      1. I’m tired of drunken rants.

      2. Why is BLM bad but rightwing terrorist plots are just silly follies? Federal law enforcement disagrees with that formulation.

        1. Right-wingers are anti-cop and anti-Trump anarchists? Since when?

          1. They aren’t anti-Trump per se, they are anti-government. There is such a thing as right-wing anarchists, you know.

            1. Right-wingers are anti-cop?

              1. Anarchists in general are anti-authority, including cops, who are the enforcers of the state.

                1. Which doesn’t refute my statements in the slightest.

                  1. What it means that “pro-cop” does not necessarily mean “right-winger”.

                    1. Which still doesn’t refute my statements in the slightest.

        2. Why is BLM bad but rightwing terrorist plots are just silly follies?

          Two scenarios:

          1) Activists sealing up exterior doors to a building knowing people are inside and setting it on fire with the expressed intent of killing those people because they have the wrong politics.

          2) Some guys talking about how the governor is behaving unconstitutionally, as recently decided by her own state Supreme Court, and how they’d like to see her on trial for that, maybe by kidnapping her, hypothetically.

          Which one, in your honest opinion, is most fairly characterized as “terrorism?”

          1. I condemn both without reservation.

            1. Tony
              October.9.2020 at 12:52 pm

              Why is BLM bad but rightwing terrorist plots are just silly follies? Federal law enforcement disagrees with that formulation.

              1. The FBI treats rightwing militia groups as a major threat and Antifa as not a major threat because of the reality on the ground. If you reverse this assessment, you disagree with federal law enforcement, and even if they weren’t Trump’s own agency, they are hardly radical leftists over there.

                1. The FBI treats rightwing militia groups as a major threat and Antifa as not a major threat because of the reality on the ground.

                  ?

                  Two scenarios:

                  1) Activists sealing up exterior doors to a building knowing people are inside and setting it on fire with the expressed intent of killing those people because they have the wrong politics.

                  2) Some guys talking about how the governor is behaving unconstitutionally, as recently decided by her own state Supreme Court, and how they’d like to see her on trial for that, maybe by kidnapping her, hypothetically.

                  This is the reality “on the ground.”

                  If you reverse this assessment, you disagree with federal law enforcement

                  The assessment that some mentally challenged people fantasizing about putting a governor on trial for violating people’s constitutional rights, in agreement with the state Supreme Court, and who came no ways near to enacting that plan, are a “major threat” while the people literally locking people in buildings and setting them on fire are “not a major threat?”

                  Yeah – I disagree with that assessment. But the new liberal way seems to be “trust the Authorities, they would never misrepresent.”

                  even if they weren’t Trump’s own agency, they are hardly radical leftists over there.

                  So? What’s you point? That since the FBI aren’t radical leftists that they are therefore completely trustworthy?

                  1. It’s the difference between normal crime and terrorism.

                    1. It’s the difference between normal crime and terrorism.

                      Which is the “normal crime” and which is the “terrorism?”

                      Please be specific about your reasoning for each. Bonus points for referencing standard definitions of “terrorism.”

                    2. Throwing bricks through people’s windows and burning property = normal crime.

                    3. Well I don’t make the rules, but terrorism requires some degree of organization and affiliation to known violent ideologies.

                    4. So, the federal government is terrorist?

                    5. Not legally, but it has a much higher body count.

                    6. Well I don’t make the rules, but terrorism requires some degree of organization and affiliation to known violent ideologies.

                      Bonus points lost.

                      ter·ror·ism
                      /ˈterəˌrizəm/

                      noun
                      the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

                      Which is the “normal crime” and which is the “terrorism?”

                    7. And just look how hard you’re working to avoid condemning left wing violence.

                      Tony
                      October.9.2020 at 1:50 pm

                      I condemn both without reservation.

                    8. Legal terrorism sounds like the worst kind.

            2. Tony
              October.9.2020 at 1:50 pm
              I condemn both without reservation.

              Then you forsake your duty as an American.

              I uphold the Constitution because I swore an oath to do so. I don’t care who I have to kill to uphold the Constitution.

              If you don’t act to subvert or destroy the Constitution you won’t be in my rifle sights.

              Please, I’m begging you, stay out of my rifle sights.

              1. I don’t mind admitting that I’m sexually aroused right now.

                1. Yeah…. me too.

    3. They’re in jail because you all are just pussies too afraid to act on the supposed tyranny of not being able to infect other people with a deadly bad painful respiratory disease we have no vaccine for.

      So you’re mad that an anti-cop, anti-Trump group of anarchists that was supposedly plotting to kidnap and kill the governor was stopped before they actually went through with it? Because complaining that the commenters here haven’t done such a thing themselves to prove you right is one of the spiciest takes I’ve ever seen.

    4. Seems a lot like these guys took the hysterical rhetoric of the Republican covid messaging campaign and all of the pants-shitting on these comments boards to the logical next step.

      There’s no evidence of this since they seem to hate Republicans also. But it’s interesting you link hysterical rhetoric to violence only when it comes from Republicans. We have an indoctrination system bathing left wingers in righteous hatred for decades but it has no responsibility for the far greater violence by left wingers.

      Revealing.

      1. There isn’t far greater violence by left wingers. It’s just a fact. I’m not saying it’s impossible for left wingers to become a dangerous terrorist threat. Terrorism can be perpetrated in the name of any ideology. It happens to be the case, however, that far-right groups are overwhelmingly more responsible for violence and terrorism in this country. This is all shit you can look up if you’re interested.

        1. There isn’t far greater violence by left wingers.

          Of course there is, you just don’t care about it.

          The study you reference is propaganda. It intentionally misrepresents groups and motivations to arrive at the conclusion they needed for their PR efforts by people like you. It’s no more reliable than “studies” which claim 1 in 4 or 5 women are sexually assaulted during a 4 year college career.

          But regardless that reference was to the current protests where the overwhelming majority of violence is by the left. But only when the right can be blamed does the left care. We see that in this case where there wasn’t even any violence but you and the other idiots think it means the world ended even as you ignore actual violence by the left.

          1. You’re right and the data are propaganda. Checks out.

  44. Her own rhetoric played no role?

    Because I’m thinking that if she weren’t strutting around like a budding dictator talking about how she’s above the law then maybe no one would have thought about putting her in the ground.

    1. If merely the party affiliations were switched you guys would be rending your panties in fury. You have set yourselves on fire with fear and outrage over a spray-painted Whataburger. The minute a Democrat is the target of an organized rightwing terror plot, you make excuses for the terrorists.

      I insist that you stop pussyfooting around and call for the specific violence you think should be committed to achieve your political goals. Because otherwise you should probably just condemn it.

      1. Why do you think everything is about Trump?

        Governors have seized dictatorial powers and don’t seem eager to give them up. That’s real. Maybe you think that what they are doing is good, but how they are doing it is pure authoriatarianism.

        1. No they haven’t. Lots of people here are arguing in favor of violent tyranny, but Democratic governors are just trying to save lives.

          1. Democratic governors are just trying to save lives.

            Then why is Newsom saying that counties need to remain shutdown only if there are hotspots in minority-dominated areas, but it’s okay if the hotspots are in white-dominated areas?

            1. You people have lost your damn minds over a goddamn spittle guard.

              1. Just as harmless as a yellow star.

                1. Way to prove me right.

              2. You people have lost your damn minds over a goddamn spittle guard.

                I actually don’t really care about the spittle guards, but as we all know if you didn’t straw-man arguments, you would have nothing to say.

                The things that bother me are the fines for not wearing masks, outlawing gatherings, fining businesses for trying to open up, mandatory flu vaccinations, having to carry paperwork to prove that you’re authorized to be outside – that kind of stuff.

                In addition, of course, to deliberately inducing panic and hysteria for political purposes.

                1. Do you acknowledge that there is a pandemic of airborne virus right now?

                  1. Do you acknowledge that there is a pandemic of airborne virus right now?

                    Do you acknowledge that none of these mandates have made the slightest difference?

              3. And further, how is that even a response to my observation that Gavin’s new rules have nothing whatsoever to do with “just trying to save lives,” since whether or not “hot spots” are important depends only on the color of skin of the people who live there.

                How in heaven’s name is that related to “saving lives?”

              4. I don’t care about a mask.

                I care when it’s mandatory and imposed by cops using force of arms.

                At that point, it isn’t about a mask.

                I don’t care if Breonna was killed over drugs or a mask. The bottom line is she wasn’t harming anyone and the goons issuing the orders thought it was right to impose by force of arms.

                This needs to end. Asking people to wear a mask is fine. Asking them not to do dope is great. Killing people over it is wrong and should result in severe consequences both for the order followers and the order issuers.

              5. Scientifically unsupportable rules are bankrupting businesses ruining the owners’ lifetime of work and their and their employees financial futures.

                Tony is so dishonest he minimizes this to “spittle guard”. This is the nature of the left.

          2. It’s not working.

      2. No one is making excuses for a bunch of anti-cop, anti-Trump anarchists, you drunk fool.

        I insist that you stop pussyfooting around and call for the specific violence you think should be committed to achieve your political goals.

        Or else what?

      3. If an alternate-history Trump had ordered the same things that this-reality Biden says he should have ordered (and would have ordered himself) the left would be screaming TYRANT at the top of their lungs, which they be able to do so much better because they’d all refuse to wear a mask like doppleganger Trump in that reality would have ordered them to wear.

        1. If Trump had treated this pandemic with even the slightest amount of seriousness and competence, he might be on his way to reelection.

          1. Maybe, but you’d be screaming about what a fascist he is for trying to control everyone’s lives.

            1. All he had to do was shut up and tell us to listen to the CDC. He chose otherwise.

              I’m not like you people. I have a healthy respect for the technocracy.

              1. All he had to do was shut up and tell us to listen to the CDC.

                And if he had done so, you would be screaming about what a fascist he is for trying to control everyone’s lives.

                1. Admittedly it is hard to imagine a counterfacial history in which Donald Trump put aside his incessant need to be the smartest expert at everything.

                  But if he said shut up and listen to the CDC I absolutely would not do that. I’m not like you. I’m not a partisan unless being partisan is justified. You’re a partisan despite any rational justification.

                  1. “…I’m not a partisan…”

                    Man, that hangover is gonna be a monster.

                  2. But if he said shut up and listen to the CDC I absolutely would not do that.

                    We’ve all known you for a long time, so there was really no point in saying this.

                    You’re a partisan despite any rational justification.

                    What sort of partisan am I?

                  3. But if he said shut up and listen to the CDC I absolutely would not do that.

                    The same CDC that can’t even make up their fucking mind on public health protocols? The same one whose director said that wearing a mask was more effective than a vaccine?

              2. I have a healthy respect for the technocracy.

                No matter how many times it’s wrong or how much damage it does.

              3. So the CDC told us not to bother with masks and now you want us to believe them?

                Once it was obvious to even the dumbest knob that WHO and CDC were lying their asses off to protect CCP, Trump did the right thing. He told us to deal with this locally and ask for federal help if/when we need it and then went about fixing the disaster that Obama left of the federal stockpile.

                The CDC is neat idea but the “resistance” has ended any legitimacy it may have once held.

                You have respect for the “technocracy” that created Obamacare?

                HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

                GHASP

                AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

              4. All he had to do was shut up and tell us to listen to the CDC.

                What nonsense. The CDC fucked up time after time. Further (1) none of their advice was significantly different from what was done and (2) none of it made any significant difference anyway.

                This faith belief that government can do anything is what led to FDR’s New Deal – which turned a recession into the Great Depression and extended it most of a decade. At some point people have to give up their childish belief that there are simple answers to every question.

                1. Your choice was to follow the pandemic specialists at the CDC or noted cheesy marketer Donald Trump.

                  1. You actually had other choices. I wonder if you can imagine what they were?

                  2. Your choice was to follow the pandemic specialists at the CDC or noted cheesy marketer Donald Trump.

                    Trump did what the CDC suggested.

                    In real time the Dems main complaint was ventilators. We had a reserve of 25k for the country and Cuomo wanted 16.5k for NY. Trump saying no was supposed to be consigning people to death. In reality NY needed 1,600 and it turned into a non-issue. The temporary hospitals went almost entirely unused because the technocrats you fantasize are capable in reality could not develop a workable plan to use them.

                    Left wingers still pretend those predictions of mass deaths because of ventilator shortages actually happened. You’re just not capable of functioning in the real world.

                  3. Again, there isn’t a choice since the recommendations were the same. You have been unable to identify a single difference between them, largely because the biggest difference is tone. But you keep pretending this is an issue because tone and feelings are translatable to votes which is the only thing you care about.

        2. “If an alternate-history Trump had ordered the same things that this-reality Biden says he should have ordered (and would have ordered himself) the left would be screaming TYRANT at the top of their lungs”

          And, in that scenario, they’d be right.

          1. Yes, they would be. But in this reality, when Trump didn’t do what they want, they’re complaining about him not having done it.

      4. The minute a Democrat is the target of an organized rightwing terror plot, you make excuses for the terrorists.

        Interestingly many people and cities around the country have been targeted by organized left wing terror plots for most of a year and all you’ve done is make excuses for the terrorists.

    2. I thought we used to call this ‘blowback’… or is that out of fashion now?

      1. Where do they think this will end? What will America (and the world) look like when it ends? Are they going to willing get in line for a vaccine putting their complete faith in Big Pharma, particularly if a vaccine is required to travel internationally, work, or go to school? Most people do not seem bothered by any of this.

        1. You can’t advocate for a herd immunity approach and then be anti-vaccine.

            1. You can’t argue for a herd-immunity approach and then be anti-vaccine.

              1. No, we all saw what you said. You’re just confirming that you don’t understand why it was idiotic.

                1. There has never been a successful effort to immunize enough of the population without a vaccine.

          1. I can be anti *rushed* vaccine they may not have cleared all protocols…kinda like the rushed swine flu (H1N1) vaccine in the 70s and the rushed H1N1 vaccine in 2009 that did a lot of harm to a lot of people because they were rushed out ahead of protocols. And the 1976 swine flu “epidemic” had already fizzled (never materialized) before the vaccine came out, but it was still pushed on 40M+ people because “we promised a vaccine, you’re gonna get one dammit”.

            http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/long-shadow-1976-swine-flu-vaccine-fiasco-180961994/

  45. If the FBI is legitimate they would have arrested Whitmer for treason and this “plot” to uphold the Constitution by civilian “militia members” wouldn’t have happened.

    Try her in the Senate, convict her and hang the bitch right in the middle of the Black Lives Matter street mural in DC on 11/4.

    If that doesn’t end this Marxist revolt, we should start cutting the heads off Antifa goons, soaking the heads in quicklime and slinging them at BLM “protesters” who violate curfew.

    Kill a Commie for Mommy!

    1. That’s the kind of alpha shit I’m talking about. You can’t defeat political ideas you disagree with without a few beheadings. Right libertarians?

        1. Probably on the floor; you can’t be that drunk and stay upright.

    2. Treason? How are her overreached in using her power as governor “treason”?

      1. I was just hoping the Kill a Commie for Mommy would get the Proggies all riled up. 😉

        I think Tony’s head is about to explode.

        1. Uh, carry on then?

  46. I wish the Dems would make up what little there is of their minds. Is Trump a hapless dim-with, or a brilliant Svengali who can manipulate even those who hate his guts into doing what he wants them to do?

    1. Have Democrats ever said the latter? I have seen them claim he can manipulate his own followers and that he blows racist “dog whistles” that manipulate right-wing groups, but never a claim that he manipulates those who hate his guts.

      1. I take it that you didn’t bother reading any of this piece and the subsequent comments…wherein you will find Whitmer blaming Trump’s “rhetoric” for the alleged plan to kidnap her by anarchist groups that openly despise him…before rushing to respond. I further surmise that you’ve had your head so far up your own ass for the past 4 months that you haven’t read/heard them blaming Trump for the violent behavior of antifa/BLM goons in the various Dem-run cities where they’ve been rioting/burning/looting.

        1. In this particular incident there is leftist rhetoric about Trump’s whipping up of alt-right groups being partially responsible for this plot, BUT that is all premised on their incorrect assumption these guys were alt-right. So, when leftist are sayin those things, they are thinking they are saying he can influence people who are fans of his.

    2. Don’t! Reason and logic are tools of the patriarchy and white supremacy!

  47. Even if you could put remove Whitmer from office and lock her up permanently, it wouldn’t help: the people who voted for her are still all around you, and once leftists come to power, it’s all downhill.

    The only way to deal with that situation is to leave the state/country while you still can.

    (Speaking as an immigrant.)

    1. Not entirely correct here though.

      Jefferson was BRILLIANT. He knew this would happen so he crafted the Declaration of Independence to give us the instructions and means to re-boot the system.

      The DofI is above the law where Congress can’t get at it. It is the purpose of Americans, what defines us and who we are and shows us where we get the right to self governance.

      We have a duty and a right to stand up for it. All is not lost until we lose the right to “alter or abolish the government and create a new one” to defend our individual rights enumerated in the DofI.

      The punishment for aiding and abetting the enemy in a time of war is hanging. Don’t lock Whitmer up. Hang the bitch. Drain the swamp and impose the Constitution upon this government using the authority granted us by our founding document; the Declaration of Independence as peacefully as the leftists allow.

      1. Jefferson was BRILLIANT. He knew this would happen so he crafted the Declaration of Independence to give us the instructions and means to re-boot the system.

        “Rebooting the system” usually involves a lot of violence and bloodshed. I’m just not up for that, sorry. If it comes to that, I’ll be a few thousand miles away, but I wish you luck.

        1. I concur.

          I hope and pray it doesn’t come to that. Then I go out and practice and prepare for the day it does.

          Long ago I swore an oath. I cannot run from trouble. I run toward trouble so those who cannot fight for their own lives and livelihoods can get a few thousand miles away.

          Wish Kyle Rittenhouse luck. He went forward so you could step back.

    2. Where are you going to go?

      All nations run by the right-wing are hell holes.

      1. All nations run by the right-wing are hell holes.

        Most of Europe (with the exception of Italy, Sweden, and Greece), Japan, and Australia are run by right wing parties, usually Christian conservative parties. None of those are “hell holes”. (Perhaps you labor under the misconception that Europe is left wing?)

        I don’t think Europe is a good place for young people and I think its long term future is dim. But for the next few decades, it’s still a good place for well-off Americans to retire.

    3. Nope. Amend the constitution. Deport socialists to countries like commie china. Eminent domain their property and reduce their compensation by their share of the national debt.

      These socialists are not just talking about anti constitutional treason but conspiring to destroy the USA. Fuck them. The 1st amendment does not protect unpeaceful assembly or criminal violence against americans.

      1. Okay dum dum.

        Humans are a SOCIAL species. SOCIEty is the most socialistic thing we’ve ever invented.

        A progressing advancing society becomes more-and-more socialistic over time. Particularly as labor saving machinery increases productivity, reduces scarcity, and provides more free time for people to pursue their passions, to relax, and enjoy life. More socialism (like universal healthcare, soon a universal basic income, etc…) is the hallmark of the healthiest most advanced societies.

        And no we’re not talking about the sort of “socialism” that involves dictatorial control by a handful of rich elites over the masses. That’s little different than the ultimate end of unrestrained capitalism (something America is flirting with).

        Machines are becoming more and more advanced. They are becoming “intelligent”, and SOON you will be out of whatever job it is that you do.

        So unless you are a defacto “owner” of the means of production (these machines), you’ll be in the dirt with the masses.

        OR, we recognize how countless generations of society built the whole of society including the advanced intelligent machines that will be doing most of the work, and we ALL benefit from their production.

        That’s the future, and if YOU don’t like it, die soon or leave.

        1. There’s nothing more hilarious than some know-it-all know-nothing showing his ignorance about the limits of scale and how complex societies don’t go on forever.

          Try reading a history book that doesn’t require Imagine Ink to finish.

        2. Machines are becoming more and more advanced. They are becoming “intelligent”, and SOON you will be out of whatever job it is that you do. So unless you are a defacto “owner” of the means of production (these machines), you’ll be in the dirt with the masses.

          Nice! We’ve got ourselves a Luddite and a socialist rolled into one.

          In actual fact, machines and automation make nations wealthier. You know what prevents machines and automation from being deployed? Democratic socialism and cheap third world labor, bot policies Democrats increasingly favor.

  48. I mean, some lunatic tried to send Trump Ricin and anarchists who proclaim “ACAB” executued police and innocent black lives. Only people without a modicum of self awareness could resort to such nauseating hypocrisy.

  49. Is 2020 over?

    Gretchen is wretched.

  50. Why is this site called ‘Reason’ again?

    The title is absurd and then it’s immediately followed by a strawman logical/rhetorical fallacy.

    It’s perfectly reasonable to assume that Trump’s clearly inciteful words incited one or more of these guys who gathered others around him for this ridiculous plan. And it’s FAR too early to claim there is no evidence Trump’s words didn’t play a role. Being there is a better than average probability that they did, it’s completely unreasonable to make this claim as of yet.

    Governor Whitmore is perfectly within bounds or reason to suggest that Trump’s dangerous rhetoric played a role in these men’s actions. And frankly if you’re going to make assumptions, THESE are the kind you want to make in order to hopefully instruct Trump to NOT make these sorts of remarks. Whether they played a role or not (again it’s reasonable to assume that here), Trump should NOT be making such reckless statements.

    1. It’s perfectly reasonable to assume that Trump’s clearly inciteful words incited one or more of these guys who gathered others around him for this ridiculous plan

      Actually, it was the FBI that incited this ridiculous plan.

      And if you’re going to hold Trump responsible for the actions of a tiny number of nutcases because of his “rhetoric”, then you certainly must hold Biden and Harris responsible for every single instance of violence and murder perpetrated by Antifa and BLM supporters.

    2. I thought the article was about WHitler’s reckless statements. But after reading your comment about inciteful incitefulness, I discovered it was El TrumpO all along.

  51. Did anyone think she would blame herself?

  52. Obviously, the author is utterly ignorant of one of the most poignant historical moments in the 20th Century demonstrating without a doubt the proverbial wisdom that “words have consequences”.

    Exhibit 1: Kristallnacht

    I wonder if the irony of the fact that you write for Reason magazine is lost on you? Which is a rhetorical question, Robby. You might consider familiarizing yourself with the Socratic method, as well as Aristotelian Logic. It would serve you well.

    Last, but not least?

    Exhibit 2: what one of your fellow writers posted today on this website. Talk about the irony of all ironies?

    https://reason.com/2020/10/09/are-americans-provoking-each-other-into-political-violence/?login_error=credentials#comments

    1. Obviously, the author is utterly ignorant of one of the most poignant historical moments in the 20th Century demonstrating without a doubt the proverbial wisdom that “words have consequences”. Exhibit 1: Kristallnacht

      You mean the evening when hordes of young men indoctrinated into racial and economic grievances went around destroying the businesses and homes of their supposed white male oppressors?

      You know, just like what BLM has been doing for many weeks now?

      Yes, let us not forget Kristallnacht, and let’s hold the demagogues responsible for its modern US equivalent responsible.

  53. I’m more convinced by the left wing violence that is far more prevalent in our society than some alleged scheme by the michigan militia. If only reason would cover the real parasites that infest our country instead of trying to prop them up as heroes of the revolution or whatever douche bag theme you have going on here.

    1. I know, right? Let’s exaggerate the violence by the “other side” and minimize the violence by “your side”. That is the surest way to create a moral argument!

      1. “UH KNO RITE?”

        Feel free to show how the violence on “your side” isn’t as bad as the violence on the “other side,” you Twinkie-hoovering fatass.

    2. Its a Lefty plot to save michigan from going Trump in 2020.

      It wont work just like hillary lost and Trump was not impeached and removed from office.

      More and more Americans hate the democrats and their lefty propagandists.

      1. You really are a true idiot.

        Or perhaps you’re just another Russian propagandist rabble rouser.

        1. “MUH RUSSHA!”

          1. Wouldn’t expect you to respect intelligence.

            Let alone what every U.S. intelligence agency and apparatus has told us is going on in no uncertain terms.

            The Russian propagandists are here. Your dismal of that truth is an indication you could very well be one. But then you could just be one of Trump’s “uneducated” that he loves so much.

            1. The Russian propagandists are here.

              They’ve been here for 70 years. Ditto for Chinese, German, and French propagandists.

              Your dismal of that truth is an indication you could very well be one.

              Your ignorance of that truth shows suggests that you are an ignorant, partisan, privileged American with a highly partisan agenda. Of course, you might also just be a Chinese agent.

  54. I gotta say that all I need to see in these comments is how often “Hang the bitch” is said. The fact that that is your go to says everything I need to know about which side is the violent one. You don’t even realize what you sound like. That’s how far gone you are. Paranoid delusional and praying for violence. Color me surprised that your attitude is exactly what the FBI is accusing this militia of having. And the entire time you are accusing the FBI of making shit up. You are literally proving that the FBI is correct. It’s stunning. Btw…you are an insanely stupid ass warrior in that you are typing that shit in a public forum. Which is also what the other idiots did. I’d be worried if you weren’t so damn lousy at exactly what you are proposing.

    1. Have you considered suicide?
      Could help.

    2. Fortunately these Trump cucks are all uneducated imbeciles, so their conserva-cuck incel revolutionary dreams of a deplorable future are just that…. fevered dreams.

      They’re so stupid they’re pretty easily infiltrated too by big burly white guys like me who fit right in with them, but with the intelligence to imitate them, to act and sound like them, and get them to reveal all their laughable plans of insurrection.

      Which would be merely laughable if not for the fact that they are walking around with firearms.

      1. They’re so stupid they’re pretty easily infiltrated too by big burly white guys like me who fit right in with them, but with the intelligence to imitate them,

        Oh, honeybuns, your metrosexual silicone implants don’t make you “burly”. But you certainly are stupid.

    3. SoOnFire — Give a call to your local FBI office and report your stunning comment-section discovery. The SAC won’t treat you like some kind of kook.
      You will feel better about yourself. Maybe even heroic.

    4. Or, you might consider that the “side” actually committing the vast majority of actual, for-real, physically violent acts–as opposed to rhetoric–might, just might, be the true instigators of the continuing and escalating violence, which you claim to oppose.

  55. Lefty politicians and their propagandist in the media are traitors to the constitution and Americans should get rewards for bringing them to justice.

    1. Divest Comcast and Disney!

  56. Trump is a very, very powerful voice, probably the most powerful influence on public opinion. His silence with respect to a democratic governor’s and mayor’s illegal, tyrannical edicts is tantamount to endorsement given his constant bickering with them over little things. Trump lets the big, destructive attack on liberty go on. Why? Maybe he is just like the democrats on fundamental politics, e.g., the oppressive abuse of power. Perhaps he will outdo the democrats in his second term. Perhaps those who would choose a voluntary, non-violent politics, a non-violent POTUS, have no option. Perhaps the whole political circus is a distraction to disguise tyranny.

    1. Perhaps it’s always been this way. Those with money and power use the rest of us to do their bidding. Jingoism and appeals to patriotism to entice 18 year-olds to enlist to die by the hundreds of thousands in trenches in eastern France in a war started by Europe’s royal families or, more recently, to gain control of Middle Eastern oil. Why anyone would trust the integrity of a politician is beyond me.

      That said, while I am very unhappy with many things that have taken place during the reign of Trump, the prospect of America under Kamala Harris worries me more. When Hollywood, the MSM, RINO neocons, the MIC and BigTech, among others, pull out the stops to defeat Trump, I have to believe that he is doing something right.

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  58. The far-left Washington Post buried the news one of the alleged plotters in the scheme to kidnap Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D-MI) is a Black Lives Matter supporter.
    You have to trudge through more than a dozen paragraphs to find this:
    One of alleged plotters, 23-year-old Daniel Harris, attended a Black Lives Matter protest in June, telling the Oakland County Times he was upset about the killing of George Floyd and police violence.

    But-but-but I was told by the media, Joe Biden, and Whitmer all the plotters are right-wing, racist, militia men inspired by Donald Trump!!
    Byline: Breitbart 11 Oct 2020

  59. At this point, Whitmer should be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail.

  60. Interesting that she blames Trump when it looks like they were Left leaning and had ties to groups Trump is speaking against.

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/man-accused-of-hatching-plot-to-kidnap-whitmer-is-blm-supporter-and-made-comments-critical-of-police

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