Portland Protests

When a Killing Becomes a Rorschach Test: Dispatch From Portland

Different factions in Portland react to a death in the streets.

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The country is in the grip of a hallucinatory fever, one that has people seeing as monstrous or heroic any action that confirms that their side is right and the other is wrong. 

This was on display Sunday morning, when individuals and media accounts rationalized the point-blank killing of Aaron J. "Jay" Danielson: They claimed that he was an outsider (Danielson lived in Portland), that he'd been coming at the killer while a gun was in his hand (it would prove to be a can of Mace), that the murder of Danielson (who was white) was "a bit of justice for the black people that were killed by police" (at odds with any version of morality), and, always, that he was wearing a Patriot Prayer baseball cap.

This last detail may not mean much to those outside of Portland, but Patriot Prayer and its founder, Joey Gibson, are characterized by left-wing activists and protesters as right-wing extremists who come to Portland to bash heads and stoke division and, thus, are the enemy. Though Patriot Prayer had maintained virtually no presence in Portland since the protests began—up until Danielson's murder by a self-proclaimed supporter of antifa, that is—that did not deter activists from seeing the murder as nothing to be sorry about. On Sunday morning, I watched a video of people cheering Danielson's death. It is both an abomination and evidence of any movement's ultimate failure. You cannot celebrate the shooting of one man by another, no matter how much you claim the killing conforms to your sense of justice, and expect to achieve justice.

Did any on the activist side feel contrition? Maybe. The morning after the murder, some people associated with antifa seemed spooked that a person on "their" side had gone ahead and done the killing that had been crackling in the air for weeks. One member tweeted that he'd gone home early Saturday night because he felt things were getting hot downtown and intimated it was OK for others to do the same, a sentiment that contradicts the nightly chant of, "Stay together! Stay tight! We do this every night!" Another member, who at first asked me to promote the idea that "last night's shooter acted in self-defense," went quiet after video revealed this was not the case and the shooter was positively identified as being on the pro-antifa side.

Which raises the question: What counts as being on someone's side? The shooter, Michael Reinoehl, was a 48-year-old with a troubled past and a police record who in the spring locked in on Black Lives Matter (BLM) as a place he might find purchase. In a post on his Instagram account, he wrote: "Every Revolution needs people that are willing and ready to fight…I am 100% ANTIFA all the way! I am willing to fight for my brothers and sisters!…#Antifa #blaklivesmatter [sic] #fuckthepolice"

In July, Reinoehl was filmed saying he'd been shot while protecting BLM protesters; also, that he'd brought along his young daughter (seen eating from a takeout container in the front seat of a car) because "I'm trying to give her an education…she's going to be contributing to running this new country that we're fighting for." 

Whether Reinoehl thought he would be seen as a hero, or had hate in his heart, or something else entirely may be determined later. What we can know today is that his actions are a symptom of what happens when a movement gets such a glow that it attracts people ready to take things to the next level. For most people, fatal violence causes an instinct to recoil, to take a step back and reconsider. But not for everyone. The night after Danielson's murder, activists again tried to burn a police station. The night after that, they were back at Mayor Ted Wheeler's apartment building, setting fires. That things will get worse before they get better seems inevitable; a movement that justifies intimidation and violence moves in only one direction, and anyone who says they did not see this coming to the streets of Portland has not been paying attention.

***

"He was courageous, but very gentle," Joey Gibson said. It had been 19 hours since his friend Danielson had been shot and killed. Gibson, 36, was back home in Vancouver, Washington, just north of Portland. It had been one day since he and other members of Patriot Prayer had decided at the last minute to join a truck caravan in support of President Donald Trump they'd seen publicized on Facebook.

"It wasn't even a Patriot Prayer thing," he said. "We just went down with a bunch of guys."

Gibson, who's clashed with antifa in Portland many times, had not been overly nervous about the caravan entering the city. "I expected it to be okay because the organizer did not announce the route," he said. "Antifa and these protesters, if you don't give them preparation, it's usually safe."

It is not controversial to say that antifa does not like Gibson and that they see him as the embodiment of the oppression they are fighting: He looks white (Gibson is half-Japanese), he seems to be a Republican (Gibson claims he is a libertarian), and he's a practicing Christian. He is also a provocateur aware of the reaction he provokes. He's like catnip to antifa. Recent forays into Portland have resulted in him being mobbed by protesters, despite what he claims was his mission that day: to promote Black Lives Matter.

"I went in there by myself after Marquise Love pulled that guy out of the truck and kicked him in the head," Gibson said. "I showed up with a bullhorn 24 hours later and went down[town] and called them out. 'You want to stand for black lives? Okay, good. Let's do that. But let's call out these people who are trying to murder other people.'"

If Gibson considers himself a peacekeeper, most Portlanders see him as a fascist. The day after Danielson was killed, Gov. Kate Brown released a statement. "The right-wing group Patriot Prayer and self-proclaimed militia members drove into downtown Portland last night, armed and looking for a fight," she declared. "Every Oregonian has the right to freely express their views without fear of deadly violence. I will not allow Patriot Prayer and armed white supremacists to bring more bloodshed to our streets."

It is true that members of Patriot Prayer sometimes carry weapons. It is true that the truck caravan, made up of different pro-Trump factions, blasted street protesters with paintball guns and Mace. In turn, protesters pelted them with various objects and sprayed them with urine from Super Soakers.

Had this been the Portland of a year ago, the clash between the right and left might have ended there. A Proud Boys versus antifa rally in August 2019 seemed mostly to be LARPing and boo-ya! 

"In the past, it felt like more of a professional wrestling or football type of thing. George Floyd changed that," said Gibson. "Then you've got COVID, you've got the lockdown, everyone's angry. A lot of people aren't working. Tensions are really high. It's definitely true and you can feel it. It's in the air. Even last night, I felt something just in the air, that tension."

***

Aaron Danielson and Chandler Pappas were in downtown Portland just after 8 p.m. on Saturday. The friends were no longer part of the truck caravan, more scouting out what was still going on of the confrontation. Both were carrying Mace and Danielson carried a knife. Both were wearing Patriot Prayer hats. At 8:38 p.m., Pappas heard someone say, "Got a couple of 'em right here! Got a couple of 'em right here!" and, a moment later, "Pull it out! Pull it out!" He and Danielson turned around, and if Danielson registered that a gun was being pointed at them, Pappas did not. Then two shots rang out and people started running. Pappas tried to process what had happened; did someone just shoot at them? He was OK. Danielson was not, he was on the ground. One bullet had gone through the can of Mace he was holding. The other had gone through his chest. 

"Jay's dead because he believed something different," Pappas would say the next day. "Jay's not a racist, he's not a xenophobe or whatever label. He's not an –ist or an –ism. He's an independent man. And he's a good man. And he didn't do anything to earn a bullet in the chest."

When asked what he would want Trump to do in reaction to the killing, Pappas said, "Send troops. Send troops."

The city of Portland and the state of Oregon would not request federal troops. On the contrary, during a press conference the day after the killing, Mayor Wheeler was adamant about placing much of the blame for the city's violence and the violence gripping the nation with the Trump administration and what Wheeler sees as the president's rhetoric of hate. Whatever one feels about Wheeler's or Trump's blind spots or inadequacies, sending federal troops to Portland right now would almost surely escalate the conflict.

Perhaps understanding this, Gov. Brown instead came up with a six-point plan. She would need to mollify multiple groups in Portland at the expense of others. She would have nearby municipalities shore up the Portland Police Bureau. She would request that the FBI "commit additional resources for investigation of criminal activity." Earlier in the plan is where she'd mentioned, "The right-wing group Patriot Prayer and self-proclaimed militia members drove into downtown Portland last night, armed and looking for a fight." There was no mention of any other faction involved in the fight.

Brown's plan to reinstate peace backfired within a day, with the sheriffs in both Washington and Clackamas counties, which border Portland, refusing to offer more than ancillary support. The departments laid out the steps that had gotten Portland where it was—the defunding of certain police programs, the decriminalization of violent acts committed by protesters—and essentially said, you broke it, you fix it.

***

Gibson had left the truck caravan early Saturday evening and headed back to its starting point in Clackamas, 16 miles south of Portland. At that point he saw some video of trucks that seemed like they were "stuck and being attacked" and decided to head back to the city, along with a friend. 

"It was just a coincidence we showed up right where Jay's body was," he said, though he did not see Danielson or yet know that he had been killed. He did see the protesters, who recognized him immediately.

"I came around the corner, and all of a sudden, there's like 300, 400 of them," he said. "I cannot run from them, because when you run, they psychologically just get into the mob mentality of, 'Let's beat him up.'"

Instead, he and his friend walked slowly. They had to; they were surrounded by antifa and other protesters screaming, "GO HOME JOEY!" Someone in the crowd, whom Gibson called "one brave girl," joined them, as did several other people who broke away from the protesters and acted as de facto bodyguards. They got Gibson to a gas station, where he took refuge as dozens of protesters shouted and pounded on the building.

"Anyone else you see in that video that was protecting us? These are Black Lives Matter types," he said "It means a lot to see them step up and try to protect us and put themselves basically in danger."

Gibson claiming to need protection will strike some as hilarious or posturing or evil misdirection. It complicates the picture to see someone nearly always presented as the aggressor as anything else. Being unwilling to complicate the picture—to see people's actions only through a scrim of ideology, or as Brown or Trump would have us see it—has gotten us where we are.

While the grievous police shooting of Jacob Blake earlier in the week in Kenosha, Wisconsin, provoked an enormous national response, the reaction to the killing in Portland has been much more muted. Someone who livestreamed Danielson's killing told the New York Times that he "believed the Portland police should not have allowed the pro-Trump caravan to enter an area they knew would be occupied by opposing protesters." While any protest death can become a political football, some are deemed more useful than others in advancing a narrative. If we want to transcend the deadly impasse at which we find ourselves, we cannot start assigning value to one person's life but not another's, no matter how doing so mixes up the picture.

NEXT: Federal Court Strikes Down State Department Rule Denying Citizenship to Foreign-Born Children of Same-Sex Couples

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  1. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pelosi-san-francisco-hair-salon-owner-calls-it-slap-in-the-face

    We can go to funerals and you can’t. Fuck you.
    We can eat indoors at a restaurant and you can’t. Fuck you.
    We can get our hair done and you can’t. Fuck you.

    1. Salon owner gets shutdown until she fixes all ADA non-compliance issue; poor Nancy almost died trying to get down that small step. Where is the ramp?! Where is the railing?!

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    2. So true. The sheer hypocrisy of it all astounds me. These politicians need to be humbled and broken for their outrageous arrogance.

      1. I guarantee she didn’t pay for her day at the salon either.
        If so it came from her congressional office budget, not her own pocket.

        Rules for thee…… But not for me……

        1. Meh, her and her husband have “luckily” made hundreds of millions since shes been in office. I’m sure she’s smart enough to pay this kind of thing out of her own pocket. It’s just spending money to her and that way nobody can dig up an embarrassing story.

    3. I’m still not clear on why exactly funeral parlors aren’t chucking the bodies in a ditch, hair dressers aren’t shaving their heads, and restauranteurs aren’t pulling a couple shingles off the roof, shitting on them and serving them. What are they gonna do? Shut the restaurant/funeral parolor/hair dresser down?

      1. Because they know that dems wouldn’t hesitate to use the cogs of power to utterly destroy them and the local media would find better things to report on?

        1. While it may not seem like it, that kind of faux outrage is finite.

          1. “While it may not seem like it, that kind of faux outrage is finite.”

            Sure but who walks into the firing line first, before the bullets run out.

      2. Because, yes, the Dems will shoot them in the face if that’s what it takes to maintain power.

        1984 is an instruction manual.

      3. I have a gym in NJ for you to check out. They pushed back against our clown governor for keeping them closed, so the local Democrats pulled their operating license.

        They will use the force of government to make you comply one way or the other.

        1. I haven’t read about them for a couple of days; now that Murphy is reopening gyms on Friday, will he still be going after the gym in Belmawr?

      4. It appears Nancy was caught on video visiting a salon (which are apparently closed in Cali) without her mask on

        1. Is there actually a face under her mask?

          1. Ever see “V” . . ?

      5. In LA the city will shut off your power and water.

    4. Rules are for the common people.

    5. If Biden wins I’m sure all of these small business owners will be thankful that they were able to play a small role in defeating Trump.

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    7. Except that it was a private appointment between two people who were not Covid-19 positive – As it should be.

      Even the actual stylist confirmed that it was a setup.

  2. can’t train the racist out of anyone, stupid sign-holder

    1. And the guy next to him can’t be taught how to space out words on a sign.

      1. the Left can’t typeset.

          1. I learned a new word today. Thank you.

    2. Can’t train the racist out of Democrats, but we can change the definition of “racist” until it only describes non-progressives

  3. I like how Nancy just calmly drops “Patriot Prayer sometimes carry weapons. It is true that the truck caravan, made up of different pro-Trump factions, blasted street protesters with paintball guns and Mace.” and then continues to lambaste BLM and Antifa while totally ignoring PP has a huge history of, and still is, trying to deliberately agitate and “trigger” any action the Left does.

    But I suppose that would go against the “narrative” Nancy wishes to sell.

    1. Can’t wait for you to be killed.

    2. I strongly encourage you to explain to every American that PP brought paintball guns and antifa brought water guns filled with urine.

    3. Antifa: Counter protesters.

      *nods vigorously*

    4. the dead guy in the street wasn’t maced.

      1. I don’t think he literally means maced, but generally refers to any medieval weapon…

        1. dude can you imagine getting hit in the face by a mace?

          1. Would be rough.

            Ever hear a description of how Richard II went down?
            (Not sure if a mace was used, but it was pretty brutal)

            1. no but now I have something to look up later gracias

              1. Died of thrist. You might be thinking of Edward II. Stabbed in the butthole with a hot iron (not exactly a proven fact though).

                1. The autopsy reported it as coronavirus-related.

                  1. dude, you almost made me spill my coffee.

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              2. My mistake.
                It was Richard III, not II

            2. You got the wrong Richard. It is Richard III who died in the Battle of Bosworth who had his head bashed in essentially bringing in the Tudors. The last English king to die in battle.

              1. And I should’ve scrolled down one comment…

                Yea I thought that might be the case, just didn’t add the caveat

      2. The shooter wasn’t maced.

        One bullet had gone through the can of Mace he was holding.

        The dead guy got a face full of it. Just before the bullet through the chest.

    5. She should definitely take unbiased, neutral advice from you… as you obviously don’t have a narrative you’re pushing.

      *long, sarcastic eye-roll*

    6. Who is this message aimed at? I’m pretty sure a large portion of the functionally retarded community would recognize that BLM almost certainly shows up with at least mace if not more dedicated weapons. Are you worried that there are literal drooling idiots who might think BLM protesters aren’t saints? Because I don’t think you’re convincing even drooling idiots of anything except your own sub-par intelligence.

    7. The only cases of pepper spray and pointballs that I saw was when Antifa/BLM were blocking the peaceful caravan of cars.

      I’m sorry, who’s stoking violence?

      1. The Vendeans, Armenians, Kulaks, Jews, Capitalist Roaders, MAGA madmen are stoking violence..

    8. “PP has a huge history of, and still is, trying to deliberately agitate and “trigger” any action the Left does.”

      …so antifa is unable to behave if provoked?

      1. One of the strongest weapons in the civil rights movements arsenal was being able to show up peacefully and receive a violent reaction in response. It illustrated how unjust the situation was.

        The violent response of the left towards peaceful dissent says the same nasty things about them today as it did about their grandparents 50 years ago.

      2. They were trying to have a fiery, but peaceful police station demolition when the Patriot Prayer people came along and provoked them by driving cars and breathing. We all know who the real aggressors are here.

      3. I mean… yes? The left are constitutionally incapable of behaving as anything other than tantrum throwing children.

        “Your stupid face was so ugly I had to punch it, fascist.”

        1. Foreshadowing for those who keep scrolling down thread

    9. “… and then continues to lambaste BLM and Antifa while totally ignoring PP has a huge history of, and still is, trying to deliberately agitate and “trigger” any action the Left does.”

      1) Your cites fell off because you’re stoooopid.
      2) Are you suggesting saying the rioters are full of lefties is somehow ‘triggering’?

    10. “PP has a huge history of, and still is, trying to deliberately agitate and “trigger” any action the Left does.”

      Why aren’t they in the face of Kentucky schoolkids oogling the Lincoln Memorial?

      There must be a deep Structuralist explanation !

      https://vvattsupwiththat.blogspot.com/2020/08/cancel-culture-replaces-tuleremia-as.html
      .

    11. I’m no fan of PP’s tactics, but they didn’t murder anyone. They could justly be charged with assault. But whatever they do, the antifa shits are still responsible for their own actions.

  4. In turn, protesters pelted them with various objects and sprayed them with urine from Super Soakers.

    One of those ‘objects’ was bullet, traveling at particularly high velocity.

    1. “In turn” is also structured in a way that suggests that the paintballs and mace were used FIRST. I find it hard to believe that in response to being shot with paintballs and mace, the ANTIFA and BLM folks were able to just produce, from nowhere, some supersoakers filled with urine…

  5. Whatever one feels about Wheeler’s or Trump’s blind spots or inadequacies, sending federal troops to Portland right now would almost surely escalate the conflict.

    Yeah, it’s wayyy more complicated than that.

    1. I must’ve missed the story where Nancy reported on the feds shooting an unequivocally innocent man to death in the streets.

    2. How many people have been murdered now? Maybe it’s time to end the conflict.

    3. They want a revolution? Show them what that’s like.

    4. If someone’s burning down your house, you may need to escalate the conflict.

      1. No, you must watch the mostly peaceful arsonists. If you try to interfere you are provoking them.

  6. Thanks, as always, Nancy.

    Fucked up situation there in Portland.

    1. Portland is a beautiful city. You ever been to Louisiana? Total shithole. Pollution, interstates running through your neighborhood, asbestos shingled rotting houses everywhere, commercial big rig and dump trucks speeding around, sickness and cancer everywhere around you. But it’s not all that bad but my point is that y’all are fucking dishonest.

      1. Funny how you think we’re all strawmen from your fairytales.
        I live here Victoria, BC, which is an actual beautiful city, and I think Portland is a total shithole.
        But I’ve visited Louisiana, and Avery Island and Venice blow your vagrant shit lined streets away.

      2. “…and then continues to lambaste BLM and Antifa while totally ignoring PP has a huge history of, and still is, trying to deliberately agitate and “trigger” any action the Left does.”

        I see the lefty fucking ignoramus pod has returned under yet another sock.
        Make your family proud and the world a better place; fuck off and die.

      3. Why do you hate black people so much?

      4. Ha, which part of my comment did you find dishonest? The part where I thanked Nancy, or the part where I think it’s a fucked up situation in Portland?

        I’ve been through Louisiana, beautiful country down there, friendly people too.

      5. I guess there are way to many black people in Louisiana for the Bigot of Strazele’s taste.

    2. Why would a self-described libertarian organization purchase and publish accounts from a disaffected, semi-professional clinger like Nancy Rommelmann?

      1. Because their readers have noticed that most of the writers have gone woke and abandoned reality and reason?

      2. Why does such an enlightened person, such as yourself. Continue to read a publications that’s filled with disaffected, semi-professional clingers?

  7. Hadn’t even heard that statement from Kate Brown.
    It’s clear at this point that the government of Oregon, like all the “protesters” in Portland, is a terrorist organization.
    Kill them all

  8. Every generation learns not to poke the bear.

    All these protesters have no objective, no purpose. Just some vague notion of social justice.

    They don’t have any examples of current targeted injustice.

    They show up to vandalize and loot. They resist arrest with violence and get shot becoming martyrs spurring on more random violence.

    What to do?

    Give them some trinkets to fuck off? Eh.
    Put em in jail? Meh
    Declare martial law and show them the true proceeds of crime? Probably.

    1. If only we had a Gestapo to deal with such things, right stormfag?

      1. Martial law for protesters, martial law for non-mask wearers, is there anything this guy won’t promote martial law for?

        1. Martial Law for Jesus?

          1. It’s pronounced “jee-bus”

    2. “All these protesters have no objective, no purpose. Just some vague notion of social justice.”

      Sorry, but those “protesters” wouldn’t recognize justice (social or otherwise) if it bit them in the ass.

      1. Yeah, I’ll never go to or support any protest that has no clear objective.

        Stopping vandalism and looting is a clear objective that I thought law enforcement was responsible to achieve.

        I don’t see how it ends when one side has commitment but no objective and the other objective but no commitment.

        1. “…Yeah, I’ll never go to or support any protest that has no clear objective…”

          Killing Jews (and then lying about it) seems to make you cream your jeans.

          1. That’s the real reason he can never go anywhere.

        2. “I don’t see how it ends when one side has commitment but no objective and the other objective but no commitment.”

          A good quote.

    3. some vague notion of social justice.

      Not even that. They’re all just working out their hatred for their absent fathers on anyone they can outnumber in an ambush.

      -jcr

  9. The time has come to send in troops and put a stop to murder for political disagreements that is happening in our streets. This has gone on for 100+ days…more than three months. Here, in America?

    We settle our differences at the ballot box. That is the way I was taught we settle political disagreements.

    1. We settle our differences at the ballot box. That is the way I was taught we settle political disagreements.

      It is more complicated than that though.

      What if there are structural problems with the status quo that is nonetheless supported by the vast majority? Then the ballot box will not work to solve those problems.

      It isn’t just racial issues either. Take the issue of spending. There are huge majorities in favor of the insane level of spending that we have now. No amount of voting will change that, at least in the short term. But it is a real problem.

      What do you do when there is a problem that cannot be solved at the ballot box? It isn’t just a theoretical question. We’re going to have to face that problem at some point when it comes to government spending, and we are facing that problem now when it comes to issues of racial justice and police brutality. A large majority doesn’t want to see major changes to how policing is done in this country. Do you want to know why “Democrat run cities” haven’t made any progress on issues of police brutality? Because the voters there don’t want it. The ballot box produced the result that the people want more and more cops enforcing more and more crimes and these are the results that we see – overburdened and undertrained cops enforcing all sorts of bullshit petty laws with disproportionate force. It took literal dead bodies before there was even the teensiest bit of progress made in the past few months. Voting didn’t.

      MLK was right when he said that “riots are the voices of the unheard”. I think we need to understand what those voices are trying to tell us, and why those voices will always be unheard if we leave everything up to the ballot box.

      1. What do you do when there is a problem that cannot be solved at the ballot box?

        The left riots and kills people while left-libertarians make excuses for their doing so.

        1. While the right-libertarians happily cheer on the prospect of using police state tactics to quell riots.

          1. No, supporting the restoration of law when multiple people have lost their livelihoods and even their lives to the riots is not happily cheering on police state tactics. It is entirely a correct use of government power, to protect the innocent when others violate the NAP. Fuck, what a non-sequitor retort.

            1. I would regard throwing people into unmarked vans, without a formal arrest, without any charges, and then driven to some courthouse where they are locked up, is a “police state tactic”, wouldn’t you?

              1. No. It isn’t. It is a common tactic with mobs so as to not incite them to be surrounded. The agents were clearly fucking marked. They were held in an investigatory manner and then released. Some were charged. Some weren’t.

                You dishonest fuck.

              2. Except that isn’t exactly what happened. And they were released and charges were later brought against a number of them. So, no if you only misrepresent what happened, yes it could be called a police state. But the officers were identified, they made targeted apprehensions. They detained them for a short period to question and then they released, many were later charged with crimes as a result of the questioning, as were others. No, it should have been handled better but also not a police state.

                1. If questioning by uniformed cops and then being released is your evidence of a police state, it’s a pretty benign police state.

              3. Chemtard, if this was an actual police state you wouldn’t be shitposting your stupidity on here.

                1. I know, right? Everything short of “mass murder by the state in concentration camps” should be considered “not a police state”. False dilemma FTW!

                  1. You’re very unlucky to still be alive

                  2. “UHNORITE?”

                    Chemtard’s pissed because he knows I’m right.

                    1. What makes you think the “actual police state” wouldn’t be throwing your worthless body in an unmarked grave instead?

          2. While the right-libertarians happily cheer on the prospect of using police state tactics to quell riots.

            Sure as long as by “police state tactics” we mean arrest people engaging in criminal acts like assault and arson.

            There’s a reason long-term rioting only happens in left-controlled cities. People don’t riot when they think they’re going to be arrested, so rioting will end quickly (or more likely never start) unless the local authorities provide political protection. This is why offering that political protection was so important to Democrats in these cities (promises of no bail, refusals to prosecute, soliciting donation to pay bail and legal expenses, etc).

            All we have to do is not support riots and they will end, which is why people like you claim any police effort is a “police state tactic” to try protect the rioters as long as possible.

            1. Oh so NOW you want to quibble with a broad-brush characterization of right-libertarians, while engaging in broad-brush character assassination of anyone to the left of Ted Cruz.

              “I am an individual who deserves to be judged on my own merits. But those people over there, they’re all SCUM!”

              And by the way, there are quite a few right-libertarians around here who were fully supportive of the police throwing random people into unmarked vans to be sent to some unknown location and locked up without any charges filed. Where were you on this matter? Trying to split hairs? Trying to find some weak rationalization for it? Have you read some of the comments around here from people who want the state to literally murder all of them, protestors and rioters together? Have you read the comments from people who want Trump to invoke the Insurrection Act? That is more than just “enforcing the law”, that is authoritarian bullshit. But go ahead and keep carrying their water and pretending that all they want is to “enforce the law”.

              1. Always the retarded victim aren’t you?

                1. Haha. Yup. Everything is so terrible and unfair.

              2. They weren’t locked up they were questioned and released. And they were charged the next Monday. The vans weren’t marked but the officers clearly were marked and allowed the proceedings to be filmed.

              3. Oh so NOW you want to quibble with a broad-brush characterization of right-libertarians,

                You don’t even understand the basics do you? I didn’t object to the broad brush, I objected that you are wrong on the merits.

                As everyone but the far left can see normal policing is perfectly suited to preventing long term rioting, which makes the Dem failures all the more glaring and inexcusable. Pretty much everyone supports normal policing including many “left of Ted Cruz”. Unfortunately for you this includes many Dems (mostly uninvolved in politics – that’s how they keep their sanity) which I know is why you and the other frothers are devolving.

                And by the way, there are quite a few right-libertarians around here who were fully supportive of the police throwing random people into unmarked vans to be sent to some unknown location and locked up without any charges filed.

                This is nonsense. The problem is that you think this actually happened. Rational people refuse to fall into hysterics over fantasies. People were arrested. There was no evidence they were not charged, and the assertion they were random is similarly stupid. You repeat the left’s nonsense because you’re indistinguishable from them. This isn’t a college classroom where you can pretend reality doesn’t exist because the professor will fail anyone who comments otherwise.

                Trying to find some weak rationalization for it?

                I don’t doubt you think recognizing your description of events didn’t actually happen is a “weak rationalization”. Since your entire worldview is a fantasy why would something’s existence matter at all?

                1. Right, then none of this happened at all.

                  https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-law-enforcement-unmarked-vehicles-portland-protesters/

                  “I am basically tossed into the van,” Pettibone said. “And I had my beanie pulled over my face so I couldn’t see and they held my hands over my head.”

                  Pettibone and O’Shea both said they couldn’t think of anything they might have done to end up targeted by law enforcement. They attend protests regularly but they said they aren’t “instigators.” They don’t spray paint buildings, shine laser pointers at officers or do anything else other than attend protests, which law enforcement have regularly deemed “unlawful assemblies.”

                  Blinded by his hat, in an unmarked minivan full of armed people dressed in camouflage and body armor who hadn’t identified themselves, Pettibone said he was driven around downtown before being unloaded inside a building. He wouldn’t learn until after his release that he had been inside the federal courthouse.

                  “It was basically a process of facing many walls and corners as they patted me down and took my picture and rummaged through my belongings,” Pettibone said. “One of them said, ‘This is a whole lot of nothing.’”

                  Pettibone said he was put into a cell. Soon after, two officers came in to read him his Miranda rights. They didn’t tell him why he was being arrested. He said they asked him if he wanted to waive his rights and answer some questions, but Pettibone declined and said he wanted a lawyer. The interview was terminated, and about 90 minutes later he was released. He said he did not receive any paperwork, citation or record of his arrest.

                  “I just happened to be wearing black on a sidewalk in downtown Portland at the time,” Pettibone said. “And that apparently is grounds for detaining me.”

                  You’re just trying to gaslight everyone now that this didn’t actually happen. Keep licking those boots, they obviously must taste very goood.

                  Once again, when have you ever denounced people around here who commonly advocate for literal murder of all of them, protestors and rioters alike?

                  1. They read his Miranda rights and released him. Yes, exactly our point. And the rest is his telling of events and his assertion that he was targeted for no reason. We have no evidence to support that this true.

                    1. EVEN IF Pettibone was guilty of something, do you think he should have been thrown into an unmarked van, thrown into a cell, not told why he was arrested, and then let go when he wasn’t intimidated into waiving his rights?

                      Do you think that is how policing ought to work?

                    2. “EVEN IF Pettibone was guilty of something, do you think he should have been thrown into an unmarked van, thrown into a cell, not told why he was arrested, and then let go when he wasn’t intimidated into waiving his rights?”

                      From your link:
                      “…Pettibone and O’Shea both said they couldn’t think of anything they might have done to end up targeted by law enforcement. They attend protests regularly but they said they aren’t “instigators.” They don’t spray paint buildings, shine laser pointers at officers or do anything else other than attend protests, which law enforcement have regularly deemed “unlawful assemblies.”…”
                      You seem to think that claim constitutes evidence. Grow up.

                    3. Sevo, I DON’T think Pettibone did anything wrong. But even if he had, it wouldn’t justify how he was treated.

                    4. EVEN IF Pettibone was guilty of something, do you think he should have been thrown into an unmarked van, thrown into a cell, not told why he was arrested, and then let go when he wasn’t intimidated into waiving his rights?

                      Whether or not the van was unmarked was beside the point.

                      And we do not know why he was let go. For all we know, the feds found out he was innocent,. and let him go then and there (once they verified he did not have any outstanding warrants).
                      In any event, Pettibone’s word was not enough to call the DHS agents “Stormtroopers”, nor to claim that Trump was “stoking the fires of division”.

                  2. Basically you are arguing that we take Pettibones assertions and agree with your conclusions. If we dare disagree we are somehow malfesecent.

                    1. I think you are arguing against me solely for the sake of arguing against me.

                      You’re going to take the opposite position of whatever I take even if it leads to something contradictory.

                    2. That is how fourth-graders behave and I’m a little tired of the nonsense.

                    3. “Waaah, fourth-graders”

                      Oh fuck off, Jeff.
                      You lost the argument because you didn’t know what you were talking about and started lying… as always.

                    4. As if fourth graders weren’t bad enough, here comes Lament here.

                    5. This is the dumbest argument I have ever heard.

                      “I object to using an unmarked van to transport prisoners!”

                      Holy crap, that is stupid.

                      You do know that police everywhere use unmarked vehicles to effect arrests all the time, don’t you? And that the color of the paint on the car is irrelevant to the maner and purpose of the arrest? Right?

                      I would say that this is a joke, but I know better. You guys really are this deranged.

                      Just because the mayor and local prosecutors gave them assurances that they would not be hassled for rioting and vandalism, don’t expect that no other agency is allowed to enforce the law.

                      What a dumb argument.

                    6. I am arguing against you because your argument is partisan trope and not very logically sound. It is nothing but hyperbole and insults against anyone who disagrees with you. Oh and for fourth grade mentality stomping off and saying I am tired of you arguing with me, like you did below, is about as 4th grade as you can get.

                    7. “I think you are arguing against me solely for the sake of arguing against me.

                      You’re going to take the opposite position of whatever I take even if it leads to something contradictory.”

                      You might have narcissistic personality disorder

                    8. You assertion of fact is completely based upon a single persons testimony and you don’t understand why I argued with this? And you really think, after all the times I argued with Tony, DoL, Mod4ever etc about similar things, that I am personally targeting you? No, I don’t like you, I admit, but I am arguing with you because your arguments are based upon circular logic and hyperbole. I am pointing out that your citation of facts are questionable. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.b

                    9. You do know that police everywhere use unmarked vehicles to effect arrests all the time, don’t you? And that the color of the paint on the car is irrelevant to the maner and purpose of the arrest? Right?

                      Speaker Nancy Pelosi made this same point.

                      http://twitter.com/speakerpelosi/status/1284294427654197248

                  3. “I just happened to be wearing black on a sidewalk in downtown Portland at the time,”

                    You mean he dressed up like the rioters to help camouflage them? Sounds like he was aiding and abetting the riots.

                    1. Huh, I didn’t realize that one’s choice of black attire was a suitable grounds for arrest. Is that “normal police procedure” too? To arrest someone just for wearing black clothes?

                      So this is why you want to gaslight people about what happened in Portland. You’re pro-police-state-tactics yourself.

                    2. I didn’t realize that one’s choice of black attire was a suitable grounds for arrest.

                      It’s a lie to claim this is simply choice of attire. He dressed as he did specifically so those committing crimes had a better chance of escape. This is providing assistance to commit a criminal act. This is of course presuming he’s not outright lying and is a rioter himself which is the alternative.

                      Is that “normal police procedure” too? To arrest someone just for wearing black clothes?

                      If someone robbed a bank wearing a Richard Nixon mask and walked outside to mix with a group of a hundred others dressed identically with the same masks you wouldn’t have any problem recognizing they were assisting would you? You just pretend this isn’t true because these are your allies and your mission is protecting them.

                    3. He dressed as he did specifically so those committing crimes had a better chance of escape.

                      Oh, so you are now suggesting that there was some sort of criminal conspiracy afoot? Only because of the clothes? What a cute little goose-stepping fascist you are.

                      If someone robbed a bank wearing a Richard Nixon mask and walked outside to mix with a group of a hundred others dressed identically with the same masks you wouldn’t have any problem recognizing they were assisting would you?

                      Well that would depend. Do you have any proof that Richard Nixon the bank robber conspired with all of the other Richard Nixon mask wearers? Or perhaps it happened to be Richard Nixon Appreciation Day in town? Maybe it was a Richard Nixon Masquerade Ball, where there was a social expectation – not a criminal conspiracy – to wear a Richard Nixon mask. You know, something like that.

                      But with these types of weak justifications that you are presenting for the police to go around arresting people, you are actually making part of the protestors’ argument for them. Maybe the standard that the police should be using for going around hassling people shouldn’t be because, from the police’s point of view, “they all look the same and they all look equally guilty”.

                    4. You claim to use reasonable arguments but you always get personal if anyone fare disagrees with your assertions. And then you play the victim.

                    5. “You claim to use reasonable arguments but you always get personal if anyone fare disagrees with your assertions. And then you play the victim.”

                      Well chemjeff is a pathological leftist, so… yea. Exactly as you describe.

                    6. Well that would depend. Do you have any proof that Richard Nixon the bank robber conspired with all of the other Richard Nixon mask wearers? Or perhaps it happened to be Richard Nixon Appreciation Day in town? Maybe it was a Richard Nixon Masquerade Ball, where there was a social expectation – not a criminal conspiracy – to wear a Richard Nixon mask. You know, something like that.

                      Those are some lovely little hypotheticals you’ve created there. And none of them apply to the situation in Portland. There’s no totally innocent gathering of people wearing black for fun and games out on the town. There is a mob of violent rioters wearing black as a uniform, and everyone in town knows it. Anyone making the choice to wear black there knows damn well what they’re doing.

                  4. I don’t agree with how he was detained and released. Fixed it for you. What exactly was wrong with it? Be specific without the hyperbole or personal insults.

                2. I love how you guys completely omit the responsibility of anyone other than Dem mayors for these riots. You do realize that every city big enough to warrant a protest or sustain a riot is going to be Democrat, right? Republicans don’t get to run large cities anymore.

                  What Portland, and to a lesser extent, Seattle did was counterproductive and stupid. That explains about 5% of the rioting. The rest is because people are fucking pissed (demonstrations) and ever opportunists (looting).

                  So what brought us here? Does a president who clearly feels he only represents his “base”, who erects a fortress around the white house and uses pepper balls and flash bangs to run priests out of their own church, who promotes violence and uses dehumanizing terms and war language about his political and cultural opponents constantly not bear some or even most of the responsibility for the duration, breadth, and intensity of these demonstrations and riots?

                  1. What Portland, and to a lesser extent, Seattle did was counterproductive and stupid. That explains about 5% of the rioting.

                    It’s interesting your own recitation of facts leads to the exact opposite of your conclusion. Why would the fact that most Dem cities can prevent rioting support the conclusion that therefore Trump must be at fault? Rather that fact shows the problem is specific to the relevant handful of cities and their reactions. These handful of cities account for the overwhelming majority of violence and damage, not 5%. The common thread is left wing politicians moving to protect rioters from repercussions and refuse stabilizing opportunities to enhance their own political status. If there was any moderate opposition it laid down because it knows it loses any intra-party political struggle with the far left.

                    The error is created by your analyzing all Dems as one group and considering only Dems v Trump.

                    In the neighborhood of 20 people are dead and all the left cares about is ensuring Trump gets blamed.

                    Meanwhile you pretend this ” promotes violence and uses dehumanizing terms and war language about his political and cultural opponents” is a problem without recognizing the left has engaged in this type of activity for decades. If Trump doing it is a problem Dems are vastly more guilty.

                    1. Meanwhile you pretend this ” promotes violence and uses dehumanizing terms and war language about his political and cultural opponents” is a problem without recognizing the left has engaged in this type of activity for decades. If Trump doing it is a problem Dems are vastly more guilty.

                      Okay? Is this supposed to be a zinger?

                    2. No it is a repudiation of your constant motiff that only the right uses these tactics. .

                    3. Is this supposed to be a zinger?

                      Accept that your hate prevents you from participating in rational conversations and move on.

                  2. No, that is just ahistorical. And we are not talking ancient history here.

                    There are zero federal involvements in the BLM police shootings.

                    Pretty much 100% have been democrat controlled polece, and often with Black chiefs these days.

                    Portland has had anarchist rioters pretty much continuously for a quarter century. It is a white progressive city.

                    No, there are no larger issues. Portland communists look for excuses to ignight the revolution. The government of portland supports them, hoping to use them as a tool against conservative politicians. Or Trump. They have done so for most of that quarter century.

                    This has as much to do with police brutality as it does with the NBA trading deadline. They want their revolution, and they use every excuse to try to get it. Covid just helped fertilize the ground a little bit.

                  3. “I love how you guys completely omit the responsibility of anyone other than Dem mayors for these riots. You do realize that every city big enough to warrant a protest or sustain a riot is going to be Democrat, right? Republicans don’t get to run large cities anymore. ”

                    Hmmm. Interesting to see if there’s some sort of correlation there. Perhaps D mayors lead to riots?

                  4. Republicans don’t get to run large cities anymore.

                    He said about 12 hours after ENB posted a link from SadBeard listing cities run by Republicans.

          3. I wish you would educate yourself to the level that you would understand how pathetic you sound.

            1. Why should you care? You’re not even a right-libertarian, you’re just a pathetic Trump dick-sucker.

              1. And proof is here. You’re too pathetic to have an honest argument. You and chipper both claim anyone who dares say one good thing about trump is a bootlicker or cultists. I even predicted this below.

                You’re a dishonest retard.

                1. Oh I can have honest arguments. Just not with you. You are a dishonest fuck and have demonstrated such on multiple occasions. You aren’t worth it. You go way beyond “saying one nice thing about Trump”. You continually defend him day in and day out. Go back to sucking Trump’s dick.

                  1. Oh I can have honest arguments.”

                    I’ve never once seen you have an honest argument here. After Tony you’re the most dishonest fuck in these threads.

                    1. I disagree. I think he is even more dishonest, although Tony is certainly stupider.

                    2. SgtBone is correct

          4. If “police state tactics” were being used to “quell riots” they would be over now.

            Jesus fucking Christ dude, you don’t need any more people piling on against your idiocy, but grow the fuck up.

            Damn.

            1. Just because the police-state tactics weren’t turned up to eleventy doesn’t mean that they weren’t used at all.

              1. The vans were unmarked!

                That reminds me of something…

                Ahh, but the strawberries! That’s – that’s where I had them.

                That’s it.

        2. But I am sure that some of them are good people.

        3. left-libertarians

          You misspelled “lying commies”.

          -jcr

      2. Barely anyone rioting wants less crimes. They just want unequal enforcement of the laws.

        1. I don’t know if they want fewer laws overall. I’m sure that some do. Some may not.

          But I think it’s safe to say that probably most of them would prefer that incidents such as George Floyd’s or Jacob Blake’s had ended up more like this one:

          https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/status/1299464104357376003

          Here, a cop pulled a gun on a very angry white guy in a pickup truck. The white guy was extremely rude and profane towards the cop. At one point the cop allowed the white guy to get back into the truck, while the gun was still aimed at him, where the guy “could have had a knife” or some weapon. The cop didn’t shoot him 7 times in the back. The cop didn’t subdue him and kneel on his neck. No one died. I don’t know why this guy was pulled over. Maybe it was for something trivial or maybe it was for something serious. Then again why exactly was Eric Garner killed?

          There is a strong perception that there are different sets of policing rules: one rule for minorities and one rule for white people. That has to end. Either the perception has to end, by the police clearly demonstrating that they apply the law uniformly and equally, or the reality of the double-standard has to end.

          1. And this is all anecdotal. Yes a video exists, if it was the same cop it might be evidence. But we also don’t know if race had anything to do with this cop’s actions. He may have done the same thing with a black man, hell he may already have.

          2. And if you looked you could find a dozen videos of the same thing happening to black dudes as happened to the guy in your video. Everyone goes home doesn’t make the news.

            1. Just read some of these statistics:

              https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2016/09/29/the-racial-confidence-gap-in-police-performance/

              Only about a third of blacks but roughly three-quarters of whites say police in their communities do an excellent or good job in using the appropriate force on suspects, treating all racial and ethnic minorities equally and holding officers accountable when misconduct occurs.

              And those statistics are from 2016! What do you think the result would be now? Even worse.

              That video I posted is emblematic of a wider perception, which is what I was trying to get at. The video is an anecdote, but it is not an outlier as far as *perception* is concerned. That is the problem.

              So either the perception is right, and there are widespread structural problems in how policing is done, and that needs to be rectified. Or the perception is wrong, but nonetheless, until that perception is dispelled by overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the problem will persist. Either way, the answer is not “do nothing”.

              1. goalposts moved. From shootings to non shootings.

                1. No, that is one of your standard little tricks. You attempt to narrow the topic of discussion and then when I refuse to let you get away with it, you then claim that I “moved the goalposts”. That is because you are a dishonest shitbag who does nothing but repeat right-wing narratives and carry water for Team Trump.

                  The issue here has always been about policing standards, not specifically about shootings and shootings only. Do try to keep up.

                  1. Statistics = opinion polling…

                2. It’s also not objective. Measuring people’s attitudes is a political poll and is largely driven by politics. Creating this perception is why the left engages in propaganda in the first place.

                  But anyway the original issue is CJ’s argument that any policing of riots amounts to “police state tactics”. The goalpost move was from how to handle riots (i.e., we should continue not pursuing or prosecuting rioters) to what to do about policing generally. It’s completely disingenuous of him (and therefore 100% predictable and expected) that he would pretend supporting cops arresting people for crimes is the same thing as supporting cops shooting people without justification.

                  What else was he going to do? Admit he didn’t have a good argument? That would require integrity. Of course he was going to motte and bailey.

                  1. CJ’s argument that any policing of riots amounts to “police state tactics”.

                    Nope, not my argument. That was your bad-faith interpretation of my argument.

                    I’m talking about actual police state tactics, like throwing random people into unmarked vans without an arrest and without any semblance of due process. Again, where were you when the feds were doing this in Portland? If I go back and look at the comments on those articles, would I find your comments offering rationalizations and justifications for these tactics? I bet I would.

                    Why don’t you ever say one word against the people around here who advocate for the literal murder of all the protestors and the rioters combined? Could it be you don’t mind siding with actual fascists as long as “the left” is defeated?

                    1. Because he sees the events in Portland differently than the way you see them discredits the validity of his viewpoints?
                      As for people talking about killing people there are plenty of trolls on both sides that do that.

                    2. That was your bad-faith interpretation of my argument.

                      It’s always amusing when CJ pretends someone else has a bad faith interpretation of his own bad faith interpretation. Since he’s so good at recognizing this tactic we have to conclude he does it to others intentionally.

                      like throwing random people into unmarked vans without an arrest and without any semblance of due process. Again, where were you when the feds were doing this in Portland?

                      I wasn’t anywhere “when the feds were doing this is Portland” and neither were you since this didn’t happen. People were arrested by uniformed officers and delivered to the normal place for the arresting authority. There’s never been any supportable assertion regular policing procedures were not followed. Quit wetting your panties, your embarrassing yourself.

                      Could it be you don’t mind siding with actual fascists as long as “the left” is defeated?

                      I oppose the left specifically because I oppose fascists.

                    3. Since you try to gaslight people about what happened in Portland it’s not surprising that you try to gaslight people about what my argument is as well.

                      I never claimed that “any policing of riots” constitutes police-state tactics. That is your lie. I even stated the specific objection that I had. You continued to repeat your lie. Because you do not mind lying in furtherance of a cause.

                      Is this “normal police procedures”?

                      https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-law-enforcement-unmarked-vehicles-portland-protesters/

                      I oppose the left specifically because I oppose fascists.

                      How would you describe someone who wanted the state to murder all the protestors and rioters alike?

                    4. How would you describe someone who wanted the state to murder all the protestors and rioters alike?

                      How would you describe people who join street armies to fight police and others and then claim the unrest will go away if people vote for their political allies?

                    5. I never claimed that “any policing of riots” constitutes police-state tactics.

                      Of course you did. You claimed what I as a right libertarian support constitutes police state tactics. This is what I support.

                      I’m greatly amused you think I’m responsible for your idiocy.

                    6. And this is why you aren’t a “right-libertarian”, just another right-wing thug who doesn’t mind hanging out with fascist-adjacent authoritarian dickheads if it means “defeating the left”.

                    7. You claimed what I as a right libertarian support constitutes police state tactics.

                      Once again, not true. This is what I actually wrote:

                      While the right-libertarians happily cheer on the prospect of using police state tactics to quell riots.

                      This is not synonymous with the claim that “anything that you support is a ‘police state tactic'”. You’ll cheer on police-state tactics because whatever libertarian principles you actually have are completely disposable when it comes to “destroying the left”. Who cares if the cops drive around town in unmarked vans throwing people in there whose only ‘crime’ is wearing black clothes? Small price to pay for going after those Marxist Antifa Traitors, amirite?

                    8. “…I’m talking about actual police state tactics, like throwing random people into unmarked vans without an arrest and without any semblance of due process…”

                      Got any evidence?

                    9. You’ll cheer on police-state tacticsi

                      Only people who pretend using an unmarked van is a police state tactic conclude this. Rational people laugh.

                    10. Oh it’s not just the van, it’s the whole shebang. Up above you want to criminalize a person’s choice in the color of clothing. You’re just as much of a fascist as the other cop bootlickers around here. And if you think you represent “right libertarianism”, well, then that’s a sad state of affairs.

                    11. And again Marshal why can’t you answer the question?

                      How would you describe someone who wanted the state to murder all the protestors and rioters alike?

                    12. And again Marshal why can’t you answer the question?

                      How would you describe people who join street armies to fight police and others and then claim the unrest will go away if people vote for their political allies?

                      Blackshirts. I’m impressed they got the color right.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackshirts

                    13. chemjeff radical individualist
                      Once again, not true. This is what I actually wrote:

                      While the right-libertarians happily cheer on the prospect of using police state tactics to quell riots.

                      This is not synonymous with the claim that “anything that you support is a ‘police state tactic’”.

                      You can pretend this of course. But every thinking person understands my beliefs are more representative of them than your idiotic caricature.

                    14. You can pretend this of course.

                      It’s not pretense. It’s called logic. I claimed – and with some evidence, it seems – that right-libertarians cheer on police state tactics for quelling riots. That right-libertarians might ALSO, say, support legalizing pot, does not necessarily mean legalizing pot is a “police state tactic”. See the difference now?

                      You are just gaslighting and lying, as usual.

                      And quelle surprise, you don’t mind looking the other way when others literally advocate for the state to murder all the protestors and rioters combined. Is that supposed to be “right libertarianism” as well? Why do you avoid this subject? What is so hard about saying “no, the state should not murder innocent protestors”?

                    15. “It’s not pretense. It’s called logic. I claimed – and with some evidence, it seems – that right-libertarians cheer on police state tactics for quelling riots…”

                      Where might that eveidence be?

                    16. What is so hard about saying “no, the state should not murder innocent protestors”?

                      How would you describe people who join street armies to fight police and others and then claim the unrest will go away if people vote for their political allies?

                      Blackshirts. I’m impressed they got the color right.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackshirts

                      Why is it so hard for you to oppose actual fascists? Why do you avoid this subject?

                    17. You can’t be this idiotic. You don’t understand what’s actually going along if you think that there won’t be protests if Biden wins. Didn’t the modern era of all this protesting against police brutality really start with Ferguson, when Obama was president? The protests aren’t against Republicans. They are against police brutality and issues of racism in policing. The problems transcend political party. As you all are fond of pointing out, “Democrat Mayors” haven’t solved the problem either. Voting for Democrats won’t make racial issues go away. So what you are describing with reference to Italian Blackshirts is fundamentally different than what’s going on right now. So I am absolutely opposed to actual fascism. I’m also opposed to idiotic attempts at false equivalency to try to portray BLM protestors as some type of fascist mob.

                      Now, why don’t you take a stab at explaining to us what you think about commenters who think that the state should murder all the protestors and rioters together. Good idea or bad idea?

                    18. So I am absolutely opposed to actual fascism.

                      It’s amazing you keep saying this even as you actively support fascism. So why do you keep pretending using a street army with political protection from allied and corrupt local officials to intimidate the public into voting a certain way is not fascism?

                    19. It’s amazing how much you keep lying and gaslighting.

                      I answered your question now you answer mine.

                      Now, why don’t you take a stab at explaining to us what you think about commenters who think that the state should murder all the protestors and rioters together. Good idea or bad idea?

                  2. Up above you want to criminalize a person’s choice in the color of clothing.

                    I recognize helping hide criminals is itself a crime and agree that it should be. If you want to claim that’s fascist I don’t care much. The vast majority of Americans agree with me. I’m not under any misbelief idiots like you are convertible to sanity.

                    You’re just as much of a fascist as the other cop bootlickers around here.

                    The fascists in the discussion are your allies, that you seem to think this a negative description shows you’re befuddled by reality.

                    1. Helping hide criminals, by offering affirmative support as a part of an organized criminal conspiracy? Sure, that’s wrong.

                      “Helping” to hide criminals, simply because you think they all look alike and therefore they are all guilty of something? No, that’s wrong.

                      And your weaksauce appeal to the majority doesn’t change anything.

                    2. “Helping” to hide criminals, simply because you think they all look alike and therefore they are all guilty of something?

                      You just can’t help lying can you? Actively dressing to camouflage criminals is abetting their escape. This is a crime. Your pretense they just happen to look alike is necessary to maintain your lie but just not true.

                      Keep trying Jeff, I bet there’s at least one person out there stupid enough to believe you.

                    3. Is a person’s choice of clothes a material part of some organized criminal conspiracy? No? Then it’s not a crime, it’s people exercising their rights. Fuck off with your fascist bullshit.

                    4. Interesting to see chemjeff come out in support of people wearing kkk robes and hoods as simply exercising their rights.
                      Not surprising though

                    5. I don’t “come out in support” of people wearing KKK robes, or black shirts, or MAGA hats, or clothes with profane messages. But people ought to have a right to do so and not be arrested by the police simply for doing so. There is a difference between supporting someone’s rights to do something, and supporting someone’s decision to engage in that same behavior. It is called being a principled defender of liberty. You should look into it some time.

                    6. chemjeff radical individualist
                      Is a person’s choice of clothes a material part of some organized criminal conspiracy?

                      We all know it’s the antifa uniform. They ask people to dress that way specifically to prevent identification and aid in escape. Those who do have taken an affirmative act to assist a crime.

                      So yes, quite clearly. But you keep pretending not. It’s getting funny, like watching a kindergartner saying we can’t prove he took the candy bar because it might have been some random stranger who broke into the house while we were all in the front room.

                    7. So the proof of your supposed organized criminal conspiracy is “they all wore black outfits”? You can’t be serious. Although I sadly suspect that you might actually be.

                      Simply wearing black is not and shouldn’t be a crime, and the people who think that it ought to be are far more dangerous to the Republic than the people who are actually wearing black.

                    8. Throwing gas on chemjeff’s psychotic frenzy, and self-humiliation, is absolutely a principled stance in favor of liberty.
                      It wouldn’t be a big change, but as soon as chemjeff kills himself we get just a bit further from totalitarian leftism.

                    9. That is the opposite of anything principled, you little fascist wannabe

                    10. Chemjeff: saying something you don’t like is not fascist.
                      Your reaction, on the other hand…

              2. White guys are quite literally more likely to be shot in a violent encounter with police than a black guy is.

              3. This data is four fucking year old. Try to stay current.

          3. And here is tony timpa who as mocked and shot by cops you racist disingenuous fuck.

            https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/02/dallas-police-officers-video-bodycam-tony-timpa

            You keep making shit racial when it isn’t. That is how people know you’re a dishonest halfwit.

          4. “Then again why exactly was Eric Garner killed?”

            Because the Democrat controlled New York state legislature didn’t want to lose a few pennies of cigarette tax revenue?

            1. And because a cop _imagined_ he saw Garner selling loosies. Or he just made something up because he needed to punish Garner for breaking union rules (doing the cops’ job of breaking up a fight).

          5. Here is another study from Harvard showing no racial bias in shootings.

            https://www.thecollegefix.com/black-harvard-economist-finds-no-racial-bias-officer-involved-shootings/

            At some point Jeff, you’re the fucking racist. You think everything is racial. It is your first and last argument.

            1. You are the one who wants to bury your head in the sand and pretend there’s not a problem here. Either the problem is with actual racial bias, or the problem is with a *perception* of racial bias that doesn’t exist.

              And even your own article that you cite doesn’t even say that there is no problem. From your own fucking link:

              The big racial difference shown by the data Fryer examined is the use of force in non-shooting scenarios, where black people were more likely to experience force from police – say, being pushed up against a wall or pepper sprayed. In New York City, blacks were about 17 percent more likely to experience use of force.

              So you tell me, is there a racial bias problem here, or not?

              1. I haven’t read the study, but that paragraph doesn’t prove racial bias.

                1. No it doesn’t necessarily *prove* racial bias, I agree.

                  But it does feed into a perception of racial bias.

                  1. I don’t think anyone doubts there’s a perception of racial bias. Our cities are burning over the perception of racial bias. What we’re trying to do is see if those fires are justified. Various studies have come out which have shown they’re not.

                    But I’ll back out of this conversation because I admit I’m hijacking here.

                    1. No no stick around. We need another sane voice in this conversation. 🙂

                    2. Yes we do need a sane voice. Although, your hyperbole and implying anyone who dare questions your narrative must be racist isn’t exactly sane.

                    3. We need another sane voice in this conversation. ????

                      The nuts always think they’re the sane one.

                  2. “…But it does feed into a perception of racial bias…”

                    Screw facts when we can feel!

              2. It could also be a cultural difference. Blacks have been told to fear the cops for decades. So maybe they resist more. Or maybe cops do have biases. This is purely correlative and doesn’t go to proving causation. No, not saying blacks are more violent inheritintly. I know a number of whites, who because they believe they are victims, or are told they are victims, also tend to get roughed up because they resist when arrested. It is the result of decades of victimhood. And low expectations by their communities.

                1. Yup. This. ^

                  “Everything is so terrible and unfair” has consequences.

              3. you are a horrible person who is trying to make the world a more hateful and overall worse place. Go pray about your inner darkness that allows you to place political team above love for your fellow man.

                1. What are you even talking about?

                  1. What a horrible person you are

                    1. Well I know why you think I’m horrible, because I’m nothing more than a caricature in your mind. I was actually interested in why Cyto thought I was a terrible person.

                    2. Same reason I do – the things you say here, which is all we have to go on

            2. That specific study has been debunked, and the more widely dispersed study by PNAC had been retracted by its authors also due to methodological errors. Not until after it had been plastered all over the news and rightwing blogs.

              Why so determined to prove cops aren’t racist?

              1. That specific study has been debunked,

                The study was not debunked. It was retracted because it contradicted the left’s narrative. This is similar to how media and academia function in authoritarian regimes.

              2. “That specific study has been debunked,..”

                Cite missing, shitstain.

                1. I apologize; you posted it below.

          6. New York times. Racial difference in stops, none on shootings.

            https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html

            Again Jeff. You’re the racist. This is the conclusion of dozens of studies… yet you think every black person shot was done so on racial grounds.

            You’re the fucking racist.

            1. yet you think every black person shot was done so on racial grounds.

              That’s a lie, not surprised to see that you are still peddling your usual lies.

              And I’m not the one who is “making everything about race”. Read the Pew poll that I cited above.

              You tell me why you think 35% of blacks think the police treat everyone equally, but 75% of whites do?

              1. Because you and the other leftists you parrot have created a narrative to convince them as such you dishonest half wit.

                If shit is so bad why do the vast majority of blacks not want to defend the police?

                https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/black-americans-do-not-want-to-defund-the-police

                When asked about the police presence in their communities, 61% of black Americans said they want policing to remain the same, according to a new Gallup poll, even though they tend to have more frequent interactions with the police than do white Americans. Indeed, 79% of those who have had an interaction with the police in the past year said they want the police to spend more or the same amount of time in their neighborhood, the poll found.

                1. And I see he selectively chose polling that furthers his views.

                  1. Jesse selected *one poll* that showed that blacks, like most Americans, don’t want to completely eliminate the police, as some sort of proof that “blacks love the police” or some such, while ignoring the entire rest of the polling out there which demonstrates that there is a significant racial gap between how blacks vs. whites view the police.

                    1. But it is telling that your first assumption wasn’t that I was attacking the logic of your argument, but that I was implying blacks are gullible and therefore I am a racist. This implies that you consider anyone who questions your preferred conclusions must do so because they are racists. This shows a narrowness of perception.

                2. Oh so they’re all gullible morons who believe whatever they are told. Is that so, Mr. Non-racist? Could you be any more patronizing?

                  Maybe, individuals hold the beliefs that they do because they comport with their own lived experiences, which are likely substantially different than your own experiences.

                  1. Uhmm not sure where he implied anything of the sort. Unless this was a response to me. And everyone’s life experiences and expectations are different. So what? That again doesn’t prove or disprove anything.

                  2. And I never said they were gullible. I said that your assertion was circular logic. I said if you create a narrative and repeat it, you can’t use the fact that people believe that narrative as proof the narrative is correct. This is true of any narrative. It has nothing to do with race or gullibility. It has to do with human psyche.
                    For example most rural people perceive urbanites as progressives and most urbanites think that all rural people are conservatives. But this isn’t true. There is some truth to it, but not even close to being true.
                    I was pointing out the weakness of your argument and made no assertions about their gullibility. My point was that your citation could have completely different causation than what you were claiming. It is true that the narrative has been cops are out to get black people for decades and it is also true that there is reason to question this narrative. Pointing to people believing this narrative, rather it is true or not, is not proof of anything.

              2. Maybe because the constant drumbeat that cops are targeting blacks? You create a narrative, repeat it for decades and then point to people believing the narrative as proof that the narrative is correct? Circular logic there.

                1. Maybe this has something to do with it?

                  https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/03/10-things-we-know-about-race-and-policing-in-the-u-s/

                  Black adults are about five times as likely as whites to say they’ve been unfairly stopped by police because of their race or ethnicity (44% vs. 9%), according to the same survey. Black men are especially likely to say this: 59% say they’ve been unfairly stopped, versus 31% of black women.

                  Nearly two-thirds of black adults (65%) say they’ve been in situations where people acted as if they were suspicious of them because of their race or ethnicity, while only a quarter of white adults say that’s happened to them. Roughly a third of both Asian and Hispanic adults (34% and 37%, respectively) say they’ve been in such situations, the 2019 survey found.

                  Again, how other people perceive the world is shaped by their own experiences, and don’t patronize them by telling them to disbelieve their own lyin’ eyes or that they are just succumbing to some type of false consciousness.

                  1. Who said that? You again are using a circular argument. Maybe the stops were unjustified, maybe they weren’t. If they weren’t, correcting that misapprehension is completely justified. Depending on the polls a small percentage of Christians believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. Correcting them is not being patronizing. Disagreeing with them is not being patronizing.
                    It is possible that their exists evidence that the stops really are unjustified, but personal perceptions is not proof. I often feel when I get pulled over the cops were singling me out for a variety of reasons and that it is personal. Is that perception correct? Or is the fact that I was doing 35 in a 25 why I got pulled over? I can’t know.
                    And as for your lying eyes comment, that is just sophomoric.

                    1. The thing is, what constitutes “unjustified” is often in the eye of the beholder. This isn’t the same as whether people believe some mythical tale in a book. This is about what people experience in their own lives.

                      But I’m quite frankly tired of having these discussions with you because you’ve made it clear that you are going to argue against every single word that I post because of your personal animus against me. I’m just tired of that. So go ahead and get the last word in.

                    2. I am against your logic. And your little I am down with this is just childish, frankly.
                      You discount my experience, because you believe it is a fable (that my faith and no I am not a young Earthers). So you just discounted my experience and every other Christians. Yes everyone’s experience is different that is the point. Perception does not equal reality. And unjustified is entirely within the eyes of the beholder is exactly my point.

                    3. Also, you are just admitting you don’t like people disagreeing with you and can’t handle it. No, I don’t like you, but I argue with you because I don’t agree with the logic of your conclusions. And if you post your thoughts, it is hardly becoming to whine or act the victim when people disagree with you and point out their perceptions of the flaws in your argument. And no I am not stalking you. You posted a comment I disagreed with. I offered a counterargument, you then tried to call me a racist. I pointed out that it has nothing to do with race but to do with the false idea that personal feelings equals causation.
                      And that the feeling of what is justified and unjustified is far more complicated and that everyone’s perceptions differ. You basically just admit as much. So I am not sure what your problem is. Other than you seem to believe we should accept personal perceptions as proof rather than question if it is a true perception.

                    4. And as for you being tired of having these discussions, is it mainly because you can’t stand having people push back against your preferred narrative?
                      I debate with lots of people on here. You are the only one who goes off in a huff because you are tired of debating with me. Are you implying I can’t respond to you? Or are you implying that I am being aggressive by questioning your narrative? What frankly are you tired of? Me not agreeing with you? Or pointing out the weaknesses of your arguments? Because quite frankly, I think most would agree with me that what you are really tired of is that I point out the weaknesses of your preferred narrative.

                    5. “The thing is, what constitutes “unjustified” is often in the eye of the beholder…”

                      So screw facts; we got feelings!

                  2. Maybe how cops perceive the world is shaped by their own experiences. You ever live or work in low rent, high crime areas?

                    I have.

                    1. Well sure. But here’s the thing: cops are paid, and trained, to act professionally, and not use their personal biases as the basis for the official use of state power.

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              3. Because racists like you keep promoting that perception

                1. Right, it can’t be based on their own experiences.

                  1. It could be, but that doesn’t make their perceptions reality. It is their experience but that doesn’t translate into what the actual causitive factor was.
                    This is interesting. Do you believe in the war on Christmas? Because to many conservative Christians it is a real thing that they will report has actually happened to them.
                    Do you believe Twitter is personally targeting conservatives, because many conservatives can point to their own experiences to justify their belief that Twitter is punishing conservatives for wrong think.

                    1. The point is that people will believe that they are being unfairly targeted, rather or not it is the truth, no matter their race, color, creed or political beliefs. It is human nature. It doesn’t make it true or not true.

              4. Haha. There you go, being all “radical individualist” again.

                Everything is so terrible and unfair.

              1. Thank you for providing that. I wasn’t aware of the follow-up study.

          7. Did the white guy at any point assault the officer, shrug off a taser, have a weapon, ask the officers to put him on the ground because he couldnt breath in the cop car, or have 3 minors in the vehicle?

      3. MLK was right when he said that “riots are the voices of the unheard”. I think we need to understand what those voices are trying to tell us, and why those voices will always be unheard if we leave everything up to the ballot box.

        Disagree. The MLK quote is being taken out of context and then applied to a false narrative/context. The intervening decades have converted the issue from “voices unheard” to “voices best ignored”. As has been pointed out over and over and over again; it’s not oppressed immigrants and unemployed black heroin addicts rioting in Portland and getting shot in Kenosha.

        1. “Black Lives Matter” is painted on the floor of every NBA game.
          Impossible for them to claim they’re unheard.

          Well, I’m assuming it’s still painted on the court. Haven’t watched a second of it since billionaire LeBron convinced everyone to take their ball and go home.
          Had been watching every game

          1. Wow. Good on you for trying. I like basketball, but I knew that the self righteous virtue signaling by millionaires would be too much. I’m gonna try with football, but probably not for long.

            Hockey is better.

      4. Chem…It is actually not so complicated. Murder for political differences is wrong, and the party label is irrelevant.

      5. You should offer yourself up as a human shield Sparky.

      6. So by this reasoning it would be appropriate for those who think abortion to be illegal to protest and riot in the same manner.

      7. Jeff, you really don’t know anything about history, do you? Since the days of the Great Society, we’ve thrown money at the issues, and there have been many successes. In my 4 decade career, my first 3 professional job bosses were black, and until getting laid off I was working for a black billionaire’s company. It is not a surprise that despite all the successes, the biggest failures are the ones under Democratic rule. Even when Democratic thought leaders like Moynihan agreed with Friedman and Sowell that perhaps the wrong incentives were in place for black families, the Dems political leadership didn’t want to remove the plantation, and blamed capitalism and what ever else they could think of. Hey, capitalism in the form of smart phones and body cams has done more to get bad cops off the street than the democratic party or police unions….

      8. Yes, there is a point where the ballot box is no good anymore. We are very far from that point. Revolutions very rarely go well. They tend to cause a lot of death and destruction and then you end up with a dictatorship. The American revolution was a rare exception. You could probably count some of the former Soviet bloc countries too. Political violence is a very dangerous tool and you don’t use it until there is no other viable option.
        The US does fall short of the ideal of justice in many ways. But compared to the world and all of history, it’s a pretty darn good place to be. Or has been, at least.

  10. Antifa/BLM has slowly outed itself as a rape and murder culture. A cult turned into a movement backed by intellectuals and large political factions.

    “## ME TOO, shut the fuck up, you are spoiling things for us.”

  11. he’d brought along his young daughter

    With him for a dad she wasn’t born with three strikes, she was born with three outs.

    1. Child abuse, pure and simple.

    2. And this dude is 48? Wow.

  12. If Gibson considers himself a peacekeeper, most Portlanders see him as a fascist.

    Not most Portlanders, most far leftists. I can’t believe she made this statement with a quote by the Governor as the support.

    It’s amazing we continue to quote the fascists claiming others are fascist without even challenging their idiotic framing. This is why people think there isn’t a difference between left libertarians and leftists. You not just accept but promote their worldview.

    1. This is why people think there isn’t a difference between left libertarians and leftists. You not just accept but promote their worldview.

      So what’s the difference between right-libertarians and right-wingers then?

      1. Depends on your definition of right wing. However, I think the largest difference is in the propiety of using the government to enforce morality. Conservatives tend to be more in favor of laws against drug use and prostitution, while right leaning libertarians share their views of small government but oppose morality laws. Right leaning libertarians and Conservatives also differ (though this difference is shrinking) in how we use our military and the need for extensive overseas defenses.

        1. Everyone who disagrees with Jeff is right wing.

          1. Oh no, plenty of left-wingers disagree with me as well. It’s just that, this place being what it is and all, there’s far more right-wing nonsense to disagree with.

            1. Funny that you only call out what you term right wing nonsense but never call out Tony, DoL, Mod4ever, Lord or any of the other left wingers who frequently post here. In fact, upstream you just thanked Tony for posting a study that claims to disprove the other study. However, science is ugly they way. One study either way doesn’t prove anything.

              1. Chemjeff, why are you so intellectually dishonest?

                1. Have you stopped beating your wife?

                  1. I love these threads where a dozen people of different points of view all tell you the same thing about yourself, and you just keep retreating into psychotic denial.
                    Fun to watch

  13. “Whatever one feels about Wheeler’s or Trump’s blind spots or inadequacies, sending federal troops to Portland right now would almost surely escalate the conflict.”

    And as the troops will win the escalation, end the violence.
    Worked in Little Rock decades ago.
    Get rid of those sissy M-16s and go back to an M1 Garand with the old WW2 long bayonet. Line up shoulder to shoulder and walk down the street. If any body shoots, shoot back. Have the cops at the other end arrest everyone in sight. Convoy them out of Portland to a state court with a DA that has a pair for state processing, then to a federal court for additional processing.
    Rinse. Repeat.

    1. The feds didn’t murder anyone in the street. They were generally restrained from injuring non-threatening and/or peaceful protesters. After they left, a civilian(?)… bystander(?) got pulled from his truck and beaten into unconsciousness and then a non-violent protestor (in the technically correct sense) was murdered in the street.

      Evidence suggests the escalation is happening with or without the Feds. It almost seems like somebody’s had a chat with Nancy and she’s adjusting to the narrative.

      1. “It almost seems like somebody’s had a chat with Nancy and she’s adjusting to the narrative.”

        Sad if true. Highly likely, given the tone of the writing here the last few months. I’m grateful we were able to read her articles before this change. The Rommelmann before this wouldn’t, IMHO, go to Governor Brown for support of a comment made about the Patriot Prayer head. It’s just silly.

      2. Or that’s what she actually thinks. I don’t think it’s an obvious call. Reasonable people can disagree on the wisdom of calling in federal troops.

  14. So has everyone learned the lesson that you can get away with murdur as long as your progressives or socialist?

  15. The country is in the grip of a hallucinatory fever

    Whoa, dude…Look at all the coloreds…Trippy…

  16. God only knows if Wikipedia is accurate, but this what it has to say about Joey Gibson’s views.

    “Gibson supports a pathway to citizenship for non-criminal illegal immigrants. He supports decriminalization of marijuana, and same-sex marriage.[37] Gibson advocates for establishment of term limits for the U.S. Congress, implementation of a national sales tax, and abolition of the Internal Revenue Service.[13] He opposes what he describes as undue influence of the pharmaceutical industry on healthcare in the United States.[32]”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joey_Gibson_(political_activist)

    If those are extremist positions, then Barry Goldwater was an extremist.

    I suspect anti-fa labels anyone that doesn’t agree with them as extreme right, and, somehow, they imagine themselves as centrists, too. And the media, in thrall of anti-fa, just follows their lead.

    1. This guy sounds pretty cool actually. And this profile is on Wikipedia with a known left bent to it. Why would anyone confuse him with an ‘alt-right white supremacist’?

      You’d have to be completely ignorant or willfully dishonest to label him that way.

  17. Where’s the obligatory Orange Man Bad? You’re going to get shunned by the rest of the staff for forgetting Orange Man Bad.

  18. See, this is how you do reporting, and this is how you call for nuance. Thanks Nancy for the great article, and I hope you have a long career ahead of you.

    1. I also must say I sadly agree that adding in troops at this point, probably wouldn’t help. You send in the troops without Portland getting desperate enough to force their mayor to ask for national guard, then you are going to get a massacre. You get a massacre and the left gets to pretend that none of the last 100 days happened. It goes down in the history books and the next generation gets raised on “Riots are good”.

      1. A massacre would definitely help.
        Fuck totalitarian leftists, and their apologists

        1. After. The. Election.

          Then by all means, glowpost for as many massacres as you want. It’s where this country’s headed.

        2. I’m not convinced on the first part. Heartily agree on the latter.

  19. Reality can never be a a Rorschach Test. With an actual Rorschach image there is no there there. It is always and only about what an individual projects onto the image.

    The same cannot be the case when there are actual events involved. To argue, imply, or even analogize that such events become a Rorschach Test is to flirt with the notion that there is no objective reality.

    I think we’ve seen enough of what postmodernism brings to flatly reject that.

    1. “…To argue, imply, or even analogize that such events become a Rorschach Test is to flirt with the notion that there is no objective reality.
      I think we’ve seen enough of what postmodernism brings to flatly reject that.”

      And anyone should recognize the internal contradiction: If there is no “reality” PoMo also has nothing to tell us.

  20. Health Passport Ireland.

    A friendly PSA with happy cartoons. Welcome to the Future.

  21. Nicely done, thank you.

    “Send troops. Send troops.”

    That’s the part I don’t get. Why not form your own ‘well regulated militia’? Do what you want the troops to do. I wonder if it’s because of fear, or perhaps liability. Maybe this is why ‘qualified immunity’ matters – since militias don’t have it (nor do I think they should).

    Anyway there is no appeasing the mob. They are doing this to demand more free stuff, and because we’ve been paying them trillions to not work – to berate us by day and accuse us of attempted murder for wanting to go to the gym, and then riot and loot by night. The only solution is to stop giving them free stuff and let the country get back to work and school. (And crack down on the troublemakers.)

    1. Because militias are socially stigmatized as radical right, social mis-fits and have been since before Ruby Ridge, but definitely since then.

      And neither side of the political spectrum wants to defend “vigilantism” and since the political spectrum controls debate in this country, there would be no defense of them widespread enough to alter that perception and any shooting between aggressors and defensive militia would be used to smear militias.

      That’s what is happening with Rittenhouse – his involvement in a militia is proof positive of his white supremacist beliefs. The reason it’s not sticking as well is because KR is a baby faced, un-tatted, kid who volunteers to clean up graffiti at schools. It would stick to cabin dwelling, tatted, hermit, hard-nosed, shit-testers no matter how innocent the charge they are.

  22. How you react to a cold-blooded killing isn’t a Rorschach test, it’s a sanity test, and if you can’t tell that, you’re failing it.

  23. he seems to be a Republican (Gibson claims he is a libertarian),

    After many views of various leftwing YouTube sites, my observation is that, as far as the Bernie-bro leftwing “democratic socialists” are concerned the only thing worse than a Trumpista Republican is a libertarian.

    1. Just saying, if any of y’all think that broadcasting your disdain for the Orange Man is going to win you any friends you’re pretty much wrong.

  24. I’m confused here. Could someone help me out. The article and even some commenters believe that troops would only escalate things. How?

    They are literally trained and well equipped to quell this activity in short order. If not by initial show of force, then force itself. Impose a sundown curfew. For all those still out, give a warning to vacate, “or else”.

    1. Because you have a hostile media. If Portland isn’t desperate enough to request the guard on its own, anyone you will send it will be played off as fascism. One of these fuckers will try to shoot someone in a uniform. Then they’ll end up dead, and this will go into the history books as how terrible anyone who is against living in a communist hell hole is.

      Right now this bullshit is hanging firmly around social justices neck, and if it stays there. We might actually get a swing back away from the psychos as a society.

      1. Sure, it’s all because of a hostile media.
        It can’t possibly be because a lot of people genuinely don’t want the US Army patrolling an American city like it was Fallujah or something.

        1. “…It can’t possibly be because a lot of people genuinely don’t want the US Army patrolling an American city like it was Fallujah or something…”

          Or Littlerock?
          “…The Little Rock Nine were a group of nine black students who enrolled at formerly all-white Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas, in September 1957…”
          https://www.history.com/topics/black-history/central-high-school-integration
          Is your ox being gored?

          1. I loved the Earnest Green Story when I was a kid :p and that’s the only reason I know this story.

        2. Or maybe they mean like how we used federal troops to end the Los Angeles riots without having to shoot anyone. Gee more hyperbole on your part.

          1. Tell us, what did the federal troops actually do during the 1992 LA riots?

            1. Regulated.

              But first, they mounted up.

              1. On a cool, clear night (typical to Southern California) Warren G travels through his neighborhood, searching for women with whom he might initiate sexual intercourse. He has chosen to engage in this pursuit alone.

                Nate Dogg, having just arrived in Long Beach, seeks Warren. Ironically, Nate passes a car full of women who are excited to see him. He insists to the women that there is no cause for excitement.

                Warren makes a left at 21st Street and Lewis Ave, where he sees a group of young men enjoying a game of dice together. He parks his car and greets them. He is excited to find people to play with, but to his chagrin, he discovers they intend to relieve him of his material possessions. Once the hopeful thieves reveal their firearms, Warren realizes he is in a considerable predicament.

                Meanwhile, Nate passes the women, as they are low on his list of priorities. His primary concern is locating Warren. After curtly casting away the strumpets (whose interest in Nate was such that they crashed their automobile), he serendipitously stumbles upon his friend, Warren G, being held up by the young miscreants.

    2. Ladies and gentlemen, libertarianism in 2020. Unconstitutional state violence against my political enemies for individual freedom!

      1. Wow, who knew that standing up to vandals, arsonists and killers was unconstitutional?

          1. So you’re ok with citizen militias doing the job then?

            1. No, I’m for less violence rather than more.

              1. You’re a fucking leftist, Tony.

                By definition you’re in favor of violence.

                1. Then I guess I’m not a leftist.

                  1. No you are an apologist who forgives your sides tactics and blames it all on your opponents.

                    1. I blame Trump for inflaming rightwing violence because he is doing it on TV.

                    2. What “right wing violence” has there been in the events connected with the riots that are currently happening?

                      And what “right wing violence” did Donald Trump fail to condemn before the riots that are currently happening?

                      I want a list in detail, with citations.

                    3. “I blame Trump for inflaming rightwing violence because he is doing it on TV.”

                      You blame Trump for everything because you’re a fucking lefty ignoramus and a TDS victim besides.

                    4. What right wing violence? And how does it compare in volume to the left wing violence? Or is he to blame for that as well?

                    5. More. There’s more rightwing violence. Has been the entire time either of us has been alive.

                      Does it never occur to you that FOX News might be lying to you?

                    6. Never change, Tony

              2. No, you’re in favor of ducking an jiving, you pathetic piece of lefty shit.

          2. The National Guard has routinely been ordered out by state governors for riot control. Riot control and crowd management is a significant part of their training,

            And Eisenhower sent the 101st Airborne to Little Rock After Brown v. Board of Education after Gov. Orval Faubus and the Arkansas National Guard refused to enforce the Supreme Court’s decision.

            So yes, there is precedent. Not to mention that whole 1861-1865 thingee.:)

            Antifa and BLM have demonstrated that there is no level of appeasement that will satisfy them. Declaring your sympathy is no guarantee that anyone can escape their rampage.

            They vandalised CNN’s offices in Atlanta after receiving the most craven sympathetic coverage anyone could have given them. Why?

            They attacked the headquarters of the AFL-CIO in DC. Who is a bigger supporter of liberalism than organized labor?

            They have stuck up a huge collective middle finger to the mayor of Seattle.

            And in Portland they have gone even farther with trying to burn down the craven suckup mayor’s condo.

            Seriously, there is nothing short of unconditional surrender to the rule of these vandals, arsonists and killers that will satisfy them. And if you seriously believe that these social and historical illiterates represent any kind of grassroots democratic movement then your even more stupid than you have already demonstrated that you are.

            1. Rightwing groups first. They kill by far more Americans. Take down their websites and smoke out their leaders. Deal with the big problems first. Glad we agree.

              1. Oh really?

                So far in this exchange, what is the body count?

              2. Again, disproven talking point. The same one I disproved earlier today. It relies on a loose definition of right wing and includes all mass shooters, no matter their actual ideology and is mostly populated by decades old incidents. If we used that logic, Norway and Denmark is responsible for a good portion of European violence because that is where the Vikings and Anglo-Saxons came from.

                1. And much more relevant is who is committing the violence right now. There are thousands of self-identified left-wing activists committing acts of violence and destruction right now, in the open, every day. It doesn’t matter which side is worse. This is happening right now. These people are explicitly calling for violent revolution. It’s not a secret plan or a conspiracy theory.

                  1. Even if that were the case, and it’s still not, when it is rightwing terrorists, we let law enforcement deal with it in the normal way. What are you proposing that’s different?

          3. Educate yourself. Read a book.

    3. This is the plan. Get the feds to send in troops. Violently clash with troops. Media reports that Trump is a fascist dictator who violently puts down peaceful exercise of first amendment rights.

      This is not conjecture. They already did it. They said all those things about Trump for protecting a federal courthouse. And then when it suits them, they say he isn’t doing enough.

      They are using people’s lives as political talking points…. even to the point of saying that Trump is causing riots to score political points.

      They believe they have created a chinese finger trap. No matter what happens, the bad is the other guy’s fault and the good is their fault. With a helpful propaganda wing in the media, they give it a pretty good run.

      It remains to be seen how gullible the people are.

      1. The media is so dishonest, which one of my longtime Usenet allies, Christopher Charles Morton, had observed since 1994.

  25. Whether Reinoehl thought he would be seen as a hero, or had hate in his heart

    Technically those things aren’t mutually exclusive. He’s probably filled with hate and delusional enough to think that he’ll someday be hailed as some kind of “hero of the revolution” or some such bullshit.

  26. I live in Portland.

    When Patriot Prayer first started making the news, I looked into what they were about. Joey Gibson and PP are constantly portrayed as hateful, extreme right-wing white supremacists. As near as I can tell, that’s a completely false narrative.

    Here’s the first video I found of Gibson. I challenge anyone to view it and point out what’s so hateful about it.

    1. That’s nearly every right wing group.

      In a poll on media in this country, NRO is considered extreme right. How do you even get to center right if that’s considered extreme?

    2. I think Reason had an article about them a while ago. It was interesting and they came off as somewhat sympathetic. I don’t love their tactics. I don’t think going out looking for trouble is good. I have a lot more respect for people who are just trying to help protect lives and property from rioters. But I can see where they are coming from.

  27. If we want to transcend the deadly impasse at which we find ourselves, we cannot start assigning value to one person’s life but not another’s, no matter how doing so mixes up the picture.

    Careful Nancy, that’s coming awfully close to saying “all lives matter” which, as we all know, is racist hate speech.

  28. Another insightful article. Thank you Nancy.

  29. What are the troops supposed to do when they get there? Not shoot people?

    1. Trump obviously wants confrontation and chaos. It’s so transparent. It’s to cover up and distract from the economic and virus death epic disasters. We shouldn’t even respond to it.

      1. As if a fucking lefty ignoramus is capable of analyzing other’s motives.
        Make the world a better place and your family proud: Fuck off and die.

    2. Back when I listened to Rush Limbaugh, in the 90’s, when Clinton would send US soldiers as “peacekeepers” everywhere, Rush would bitterly object to such a thing (naturally), because the Army’s job was to “kill people and break things”. Not to be doing stupid shit like, you know, maintain a delicate peace in places like war-torn Yugoslavia. I of course don’t listen to Rush now, but I can’t imagine that he wouldn’t be in favor of sending the military to Portland now, presumably, to “kill people and break things”.

      1. Back when you might have learned to read:
        “…The Little Rock Nine were a group of nine black students who enrolled at formerly all-white Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas, in September 1957…”
        https://www.history.com/topics/black-history/central-high-school-integration
        Is your ox being gored?

        1. What is your point?
          Are you advocating for the US Army to be used as police in Portland?

    3. The troops are likely better at not shooting people than the police are.

  30. I must say, every article on my news feed after the Rittenhouse shooting was “far right trump supporter murders 2 protesters” with almost no mention of the events on video or any nuance (I watched it, he is going to get charges dropped or reduced based on self defense). And with the PP guy dead, its either crickets or some version of “far right trump rally leads to one dead in Portland”.

    I will throw out there that I have strong libertarian sympathies, voted Obama over McCain, and went for GayJay in 16 (aka, not really a Trump fan at all), but man, they seem like they are really turning into straight propaganda and not even trying to call balls or strikes nowadays.

    1. We don’t yet know the full context necessary to determine whether he acted in legally permissible self-defense. The jury, if you’re into that sort of thing, will have to decide based on a high standard for murder 1, so we’ll see.

      But people carrying ARs down the street is a scene from a failed state and should not be encouraged. Every decision that led to this guy’s homicides was a bad one on his part.

      1. Except for the whole video showing the kid being attacked by a mob screaming “kill him” that is.

        1. All the while running away from the mob screaming “kill him”.

          Yep, these are just peaceful protesters.

      2. “…But people carrying ARs down the street is a scene from a failed state and should not be encouraged…”

        That state is a far-lefty state, so you are correct; a failed state.

        1. Wisconsin? From your mouth to Allah’s ears.

          1. Portland got moved to WI? Gee, I guess you keep more informed about the 57 states than I do.

            1. No, no. Tony’s right for a change. He’s talking about the Kenosha incident.

      3. But people carrying ARs down the street is a scene from a failed state and should not be encouraged.

        So are mass riots. It’s revealing Tony only applies standards when the result is blame to his partisan opponent. Left wingers carrying guns and decked out as if from the Road Warrior draw exactly zero criticism.

        Every decision that led to this guy’s homicides was a bad one on his part.

        It’s true Rittenhouse shouldn’t have gone. Because left wingers believe their righteousness supersedes societal norms they are incredibly dangerous. But even so every person shot was vastly more at fault for events than RH. They began the attack, refused to be satisfied that he retreated, and cornered him leaving no retreat before he acted.

        It’s revealing Tony completely exonerates the person who attacked RH to start the violence, those who attacked him afterward, and even the person who started the arson.

        Tony bases literally every judgment on whether it supports the left political goals. This is the perfect leftist.

      4. Interesting. No thoughts on the Portland murderer? One of your own.

      5. Yes, they may get him on illegal carry of a gun. WE’ll see. But he was clearly acting in self defense and was not the aggressor. He showed great restraint from what I saw and only shot people who were serious threats to him.

    2. You realize that if you disagree with the “far right” narrative you are a racist..right? I mean it’s how debate has been silenced…facts not allowed and so on. I’m still waiting for an explanation that unarmed citizens killed by police fall into their % of the general public..that sort of contradicts the whole narrative anyway.

  31. “a scene from a failed state and should not be encouraged.”
    Why did Kenosha and Wisconsin fail then?

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  33. Gov Brown is a bolshevik..only bolsheviks rationalize about how victims are the oppressor. She should be removed from office immediately as she refuses to protect citizens life, liberty, and property if they are so called “right wing”..which today is anyone to the right of Stalin or Troysky (I’ll use Trotysky as he is probably the hero for the folks like Brown). I’m sick of hearing about “nazi’s”..seriously where are they? Some fringe groups in Idaho are the bogeyman under every bed now. Their numbers are pale in comparison with the marxists. Communists..nope not there.. despite the obvious evidence of their infestation in the media, hollywood, “non profits” and govt. You are not allowed your natural rights now if you disagree with the “movement.” Its pathetic and honestly Trump has every reason to send in Federal Troops to protect citizens that Gov Brown deems unworthy of their own life.

    1. Communists..nope not there.. despite the obvious evidence of their infestation in the media, hollywood, “non profits” and govt.

      Sure, if by “communist” you mean “anyone to the left of Ted Cruz”

      1. This is a stupid trope. Take the people at their word. They variously claim to be communists, anarcho-communists, socialists… They all proclaim the evils of the world are due to capitalism and that the system must be overthrown.

        It isn’t a secret. They only deny such things when it looks bad. At all other times they proudly proclaim it themselves.

        1. They variously claim to be communists, anarcho-communists, socialists… They all proclaim the evils of the world are due to capitalism and that the system must be overthrown.

          And by “they”, do you mean:
          people who have “infest[ed] the media, hollywood, “non profits” and govt.”
          or, Portland protestors?

          Marxist, Communist, socialist, they are all just thrown around to mean “people we don’t like”.

          1. Like you call everyone else Trump bootlickers or racists or authoritarians whenever they disagree with you?

            1. See, this is the part of you just being deliberately argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. What you wrote about me isn’t true, you know it isn’t true, but you’re just saying it to provoke an argument.

              1. You’ve done it at least four times in your statements today in this very comment thread. You even implied I was a racist for disagreeing with your conclusions. So, stop gaslighting. It is entirely true. You also called multiple people bootlickers in this very comment thread. Yes it is true. Every word of it. This is not being argumentative for argument sake, this is stating a verifiable fact. Your problem is you like to think you are better than this and thus whenever anyone points out differently you gaslight them and imply they are lying.

          2. These are their own labels.

            Have you never even listened to them talk in their own words about what they stand for?

            They certainly do not believe these words are pejorative when they use themselves.

            1. Yes, there are some actual Communists and Marxists and socialists out there.

              They are not, by and large, the people working in government or the media or Hollywood or nonprofits, though. They are either gray-haired academics, or Portland protestors.

              1. Here’s BLM’s beliefs, which is pretty central to what’s happened the past 3 months.
                We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege

                We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

                We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).

    2. Nope, moonbeam isn’t a commie, except by accident. He’s a failed Jesuit, forever guilty of not suffering enough for his ‘faith’ and more than willing to use his power to make the rest of us suffer for him.
      The fact that those tendencies are largely congruent with the Bolshies probably doesn’t even register with moonbeam.
      Remember, like most D politicos, he has never held a job other than being a DJ hired for his name.

      1. Sevo you’d fit right in with the far right screwballs in Oregon. Constantly complaint about PERS(they do have legit gripes), but it seems like they’ve declared war on every govt employee in Oregon(except cops cuz thin blue lines matter?) It’s hard to take any far right loon in Oregon seriously when everything that comes out of their mouth is PERS are worse than Hitler and abortion is wrong wrong wrong! I know you may feel my comment makes no sense, but I’m trying to reach out to you because your comments make zero sense and just insult me.

        1. Says the guy, trying to act level headed, who uses a phrase that implies he feels the killing of rural Americans is justified. Really?

    3. You righties have become a parody of yourself. Anyone to the right of Bill Sizemore and his carpetbagging financial backers is a commie. Maybe there would be more accomplished and comprise could happen if the GOP in Oregon wasn’t so ridiculous. I know Dems had done it before, but hiding in other states to keep a climate change bill from passing is cowardly. Maybe if the GOP of Oregon didn’t try to please the shit kicking religious freaks in Oregon they could maybe actually win elections. All the recall efforts of Brown have been raging successes… In Crook, Wheeler, and Wasco counties. It’s funny the the parts of Oregon that suffer from inbreeding and hookworm hate Brown. However, the parts where people live don’t seem to have a big of problem with her.

      1. No a parody is someone who chooses a handle that calls for the killing of rural Americans and people he disagrees with lecturing others about partisanship and insults and hyperbole.

  34. You know, for a site called Reason, there sure are a lot of people here who have huge murder-boners and want to kill vast swathes of people.

    1. Checks on viagra stock

    2. It gets better. These people are supposed to be the vanguard against state violence.

      1. Unwarranted state violence, but when warranted when others choose to violate the NAP, it is not only warranted but about the only legitimate use for government. As you have been told more times than I can count. By just about everyone on here. Over multiple years.

        1. So you guys are on Team Maximum State Violence because your anti-statist principles require it. Yet statist that I am, I can find a way to be against maximum state violence in response to this. Curioser and curioser.

          1. We’re totes cool with the State not bringing any force to bear.
            We can settle things just fine that way.
            What we object to is the use of State force to protect your friends.
            So let’s get the state totally out of it and we’ll see how things stand when the dust settles.
            Arresting specific “protesters” for the crimes they commit is necessary to protect all the “protesters” from facing retribution for their collective destruction

            1. What we object to is the use of State force to protect your friends *and only your friends

            2. Being a Republican cocksucker has got to be terrible for the blood pressure. Look, they’re all lying to you. Every last one of those TV rapists or bimbos or upjumped teenage boys with a YouTube channel. Isn’t it easier if there aren’t actually Antifas under your bed?

              1. There’s no antifas under my bed, buddy.
                They’re on Twitter and the streets of D cities

    3. You are right, KillAllRednecks for example. Or Tony who hasn’t at all condemned murdering right wingers but condemns a kid who acted in self defense. You nailed it. Good call. Thank you for calling it out.

    4. For a site called Reason?

      Did you just post that for the “drink!” Response?

      Because the word “reason” is orthogonal to killing vast swaths of people. The two largest mass murderers in history both proclaimed their acts to be based in reason and science. Mao and Stalin.. pick your order. Neither murdered from passion. They claimed it was a necessity.

  35. Nancy what are you still doing in Portland? I thought you didn’t like the people there? If it’s nothing but far left violent thugs don’t you fear for your safety? The way you describe it a solo white female isn’t safe there because the whole city is being set on fire by black block, Antifa, blm thugs? How have you not been killed yet? I know many of Reason readers were able to realize there are very few to no peaceful protesters. PLEASE GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN!

    1. If it’s money your worried about I’m sure you’re still working for your husband but saying you don’t. Portland is just cancel culture at it’s worse. People boycotting a business because the owners wife/employee said something they didn’t like. What’s the world come to when people are expressing their opinions about people? That’s not freedom of speech, it’s tyranny.

      PLEASE LEAVE BEFORE YOU GET LIT ON FIRE BY ANTIFA OR SHIELDED TO DEATH BY BLACK BLOCK OR BLACK LIVE MATTERED TO DEATH! YOURE SCARING ME NANCY!

      1. Please get fucked with a running, rusty chain-saw.

        1. There you go Sevo! Just an insult! No explanation for why or even if you disagree with me. I’m flattered someone as incompetent as you hates me so much. THANK YOU

          1. “…No explanation for why or even if you disagree with me…”

            Exactly what your bullshit deserves. Please get fucked with a running, rusty chain-saw.

            1. Thank you Sevo! You realize you don’t have the mental capacity to put together a reason why you disagree with me so you save your self the embarrassment by just insulting me. Good for you! No point in arguing with me when I’d just embarrass you.

              1. Complaining about Sevo insulting people while you use the handle KillAllRedencks, and rednecks has long been a derogatory term for rural Americans. Hypocrisy much?

              2. Exactly what your bullshit deserves. Please get fucked with a running, rusty chain-saw.
                Lefty shitbags posting lies and strawmen do not deserve any more than you’ve gotten.
                Grow up.

  36. Thank you for your reporting. It is important.

    CNN still is not reporting this story. They are pretending that the Mayor’s insane ret-con is reality. They pretend that nobody knows what happened (but it appears that a white nationalist extremist trump supporter attacked a peaceful protester with a can of bear mace, prompting the shooting…. no lie, this is the version they have been going with)

    One quibble: this did not get out of control. This is the intended result.

    1. Take Nancy’s reporting with a grain of salt. She is actively seeking out the people who look the wort and ignoring the majority of people who aren’t causing trouble. She cites a guy frequently that claims to be a “journalist” but in reality is colluding with the alt right armed thugs who collude with the police. Nancy has a history of not being forth coming about her motivationans or employment history.

      1. Please get fucked with a running, rusty chain-saw.

        1. Thank you! Where do you live in CA? My guess is Susanville?

          1. And there you go again, insulting people based upon your perception of where the come from and their political leanings. While also ironically trying to claim above that you are level headed.

            1. Just another partisan hack who hates to admit he is a partisan hack.

          2. “Thank you! Where do you live in CA? My guess is Susanville?”

            Please get fucked with a running, rusty chain-saw. Your family will smile, the world will be a far better place and your continued bullshit gets an appropriate response, you scummy piece of lefty shit.

      2. I watched the videos myself, just as I did the ones from Wisconsin and Minneapolis. There is not much wiggle room. That was a pretty depraved crowd.

        And i watched the video from Fullerton California. But you guys don’t say his name. Or any of the other names over the intervening years of peoplewho were really murdered by police who didn’t get held accountable. No, you only know the names of people from questionable cases that began with false narratives. Names that can be used to divide. Names that can be used to prevent real reforms from taking place.

        1. What does it matter whose names are said, as long as the reforms do eventually happen?

          I don’t think anyone denies that the police murder more than just black people.

          1. That is kind of most people’s point and it is mine consistently. By making this about race you shut out allies and alienate others. It makes any reform far less likely. When people can see the stats and come to a different conclusion in regards to rather this is a black problem and you castigate people who say it isn’t just black lives matter but all lives, you basically tell them to shut the fuck up and buy into our narrative or else.
            Just because someone doesn’t support the current narrative doesn’t mean they are racists, or bootlickers or anything else you have chosen to call us. Most people would support some police reform. But no, you have chosen to focus on a small, perceived, ideologically driven narrative and then demonized us when we don’t buy into it.

          2. It matters because they intentionally choose to cry “racist cop” and proclaim hands up dont shoot when neither is true.

            This is no accident.

            This is not my first rodeo.

            This has been my issue since long before Rodney King.

            It took Balko to teach me about the more systemic issues… I had bought the “bad cop” plus “thin blue line” narrative.

            Balko and Reason and the Innocence project were making a difference. They were on the verge of changing the discussion. The Rise of the Warrior Cop was making headway.

            Then they pulled that hands up dont shoot BS. They turned everything toward race.

            It was a lie.

            They knew it was a lie.

            They pushed it anyway.

            Because they don’t want the solution. They want the issue.

            So asshats like you are the problem. Whether you are cynical in pushing the DNC talking points or just easily manipulated, you are the problem.

            Because we know what the issues are and there are solid proposals for dealing with then.

            But none of them will happen if we keep diverting into the unwinnable war against racism. There are no legitimate proposals for fixing that. It is an unserious charge. A canard purely intended to foment hatred and gin up a fight. It has successfully derailed attempts to fix these issues for decades.

            So i resent all of you useful idiots who derail progress every time we begin, whether you believe your BS or whether you are a cynical operative who knows full well the evil you do.

            1. Because they don’t want the solution. They want the issue.

              With all due respect Cyto, I don’t think this is correct, at least as far as many are concerned, including myself.

              I think a lot of people really do want a solution to the problems of police brutality and disparate treatment at the hands of law enforcement, but they want a *real* solution, and they won’t settle for just some token reforms to paper over a broken system. Let’s face it: “more police training” isn’t going to cut it this time. And it really is the same attitude that a lot of libertarians have, just approached from a different direction. I mean think about it: would you really settle for police “reform” that amounted to “train officers to arrest pot smokers nicely”? Or would you say, like I do, that the *real* solution here is to legalize pot along with most if not all drugs, so that the police don’t even have the opportunity to murder people for victimless drug crimes? Sure the protestors are not, by and large, libertarians, so they tend to approach this issue from a more left-wing point of view. So they see it more in terms of race and class. That the “real problem” is inequitable treatment along those lines. And not, as a libertarian might argue, that the “real problem” is too much state power in the first place enforcing too many damn laws. I guess I don’t have much of a problem acknowledging, and to a degree sympathizing with, this left-wing viewpoint on this matter because (a) I’m not certain that they are entirely wrong, that race and class don’t play a prominent role on inequitable police treatment, and (b) the two viewpoints are not mutually contradictory anyway. Whenever the state does have too much power, it is always the less well off and less fortunate that suffer the brunt of that power, and it is inevitably those who are not in the majority group that suffer the most.

              1. As I say…. not my first rodeo. I have seen the dance before.

                Hands uo… don’t shoot.

                There was real momentum.

                That event made it about race. You cannot fix racist.

                But what hapoened? The initial story was hands uo dont shoot.

                But we had a video shot by someone who was there at the time. The only publicly available information from a contemporaneous source. And he comments that the guy charged the cop

                But hands up.don’t shoot is what got reported.

                So within a few days Obama sends in Eric Holder with the FBI. They are going to get to the bottom of these racist police who kill innocent black people with their hands in the air. Holder locks down the investigstion. No leaks. No more reporting.

                After a couple of months of riots, he comes out with his report. Good shoot. Not a gentle giant. Grabbed officers weapon and fired inside the vehicle, wounding his hand and shooting the inside if the door.

                Here is how you know they wanted the riots. They wanted the issue, not the solution that was coming.

                There was blood and a bullet hole inside the car door. Our gentle giant had a gunshot wound on his hand from close range. From grabbing the gun and the gun going off in a struggle.

                None of that was reported publicly.

                But the police knew that this is what the officer said.

                And Eric Holder knew.

                Within 24 hours he had to know. That is too much evidence. It completely destroys hands up dont shoot, gentle giant.

                We also know that they had the (black lady) motorist eyewitness report the same day. She contradicted the hands up narrative. She said he attacked the officer through the window, ran away. Then turned and charged before he was shot.

                So eric holder knew the truth within 24 hours. Not a complete investigation. But he knew that the hands up dont shoot story that was the basis of BLM was a lie.

                And he held that information for months while riots burned the cities.

                Before the first Target was looted, he knew. And by extension, Obama knew.

                But they kept it secret. They ordered the local police to keep quiet about an ongoing investigation. And they let racial unrest and hatred build.

                Not by accident.

                They knew the story was a lie.

                And they waited months to say so.

                Because they want people angry and in the streets.

                They did the same thing this time. They have no interest in reform.

                Some want a revolution, as you say. But most of all, the politicians want the issue.

                Judge them by their actions.

                They say they support reforms… but they filibuster actual legislation.

                1. Chemjeff doesn’t care.
                  All he really wants is to wrap himself in the warm delusion of his “virtue”.

                  1. But I should say: well written, cyto. Great breakdown

                2. You’re right on. You can’t fix the police accountability problem by treating it like a racial issue.

            2. This is a good post, Cyto. Thank you

              1. Two good posts!

      3. Ngo doesn’t collude with anyone. He stays with groups like Patriot Prayer and the Proud Boys because they’re the only ones not trying to kill him. He is a legitimate journalist, and that’s why antifa want him dead. Because they don’t want anyone telling the truth about what they do.

  37. this shooting in portland could not have been murder because no one on my social media feeds is constantly pointing out as much.

    not like that madman Rittenhouse, came in from far away to fire indiscriminately at peaceful protesters

    1. When I was 17 I was always travelling across state lines with my militia buddies to “defend businesses.” We didn’t know who’s business it was and they never asked us for help, but we always served our communities by showing up to civil unrest with loaded weapons. How dare the facist left wing commies say we were only there to shoot people? While they were hating america by smoking weed and playing video games we were protecting america by taking loaded guns to disturbances that often turned violent. If we hadn’t of been there nobody would of gotten shot and maybe more looting or property damage could of happened. Yep patriots we were! Who cares how or why a 17 year old would have a gun like that.

      1. Actually he worked in that town, and he did know whose business they were. And so what? He took a loaded gun, at least one of the rioters had a loaded gun as well.

        1. He is still only 17. What kind of 17 year old has a gun like that at work as a lifeguard?

          1. He didn’t have it at work. And lots of 17 yo have guns like that and even stronger. Hell, he could legally join the Army at his age and carry something far deadlier than that.

            1. I had guns at that age and my parents were smart enough to not let me have access to them except when hunting or whatever. Letting a 17 year old bring a gun to a protest, civil disturbance, riot is terrible parenting.

              1. In your opinion. By his age and much younger I was hunting by myself and shooting by myself. Just because your parents didn’t trust you isn’t a coherent argument.

              2. And once again you gloss over the fact that at his age he can legally join the military and use far deadlier guns.

              3. Letting a 17 year old bring a gun to a protest, civil disturbance, riot is terrible parenting.

                Probably true. But why aren’t you criticizing the parenting of the three people who attacked a guy with a rifle? I think I identified a flaw in their decision making process.

              4. Yeah, your parents probably had an ounce of intelligence not to let a moron like you have a firearm.

              5. my parents were smart enough to not let me have access to them

                That is because they knew you.

      2. Stupid. Find a better source for your talking points. Pretty much everything is false, starting with the “across state lines” nonsense. The city is on the border. The suburb is across the state line. The dude worked in Kenosha.

        Statements like that out you. Claiming some significance to that is like claiming that going to a mall 20 minutes from your house is significant. These are normal to short commutes for most of the country.

        1. He’s still a 17 year old bringing a gun to a protest. I know you righties think white man’s property is more important than black lives. But property can be replaced, lives can’t. The small dick militiamen are just trying to escalate the situation so they can shoot someone and be a hero(they’re actually cowards). DO YOU REALLY THINK ITS SMART TO HAVE A 17 YEAR OLD BRING A GUN TO A CIVIL DISTURBANCE LIKE THAT? it’s asking for trouble.

          1. What is the white man and black man thing? Some of the property owners he protected were black and the people he was defending them from were mostly whites. And why shouldn’t a 17 yo be able to defend himself? You keep stating his age as if that is somehow pertinent. In a good portion of the country kids his age have been using firearms for years. And you can join the Army at his age.

            1. Most people wouldn’t chase down a 17 year old kid and try to incite a mob to beat the crap out of him either, but it certainly looks like that is where this started.

              1. Well, yeah there’s that too. Why does a 40+ year old man chase a 17 yo and threaten to kill him?

                1. Because Kyle put out a fire.
                  They tried to kill him because he was there literally putting out fires

                  1. Perfect symbolism.
                    Pretty much sums up the whole issue with antifa-BLM and their demonstrations

                    1. ^see cyto’s comment at 2:09 above

          2. There were zero black lives involved.

            You really don’t even have the slightest idea what you are commenting about, do you? Are you 14 or something?

            We have several spoof accounts around these parts, a couple of professional trolls and a disaffected journalist or two slumming.

            This is so dumb I suspect we have a former reason writer doing an impersonation while stoned.

          3. Please get fucked with a running, rusty chain-saw.

          4. I know you righties think white man’s property is more important than black lives.

            “Righties”, apparently uniquely, believe we can protect white and black lives along with white and black property all at the same time. Protecting one does not mean taking the other. I find it astonishing a movement of millions includes nobody who understands this. But such is left wing education these days.

          5. Why are you thinking about the size of this kid’s penis?

          6. DO YOU REALLY THINK ITS SMART TO HAVE A 16 YEAR OLD lecture the UN General Assembly on global warming?

      3. “When I was 17 I was always travelling across state lines with my militia buddies to “defend businesses.”

        Please get fucked with a running, rusty chain-saw.

  38. “if most the protesters are peaceful why aren’t they stopping the violent ones or turning them into police?” In case you missed it these protests started partly in the need of police reform/refund/abolish. Especially among minority communities in Portland the police aren’t trusted. They collude with the far right armed thugs(who mostly live in shithole vancouver area). So it shouldn’t surprise anyone with a brain that the police aren’t trusted by most protestors. “Why not stop the people causing trouble?” Some do and some are reluctant to try and use violence to stop violence. If the cops actually enforced the laws consistently things may have settled down by now. Or if Trump hadn’t sent in DHS troops it may have settled down by now. The feds completely invigorated the knuckleheads causing trouble and the peaceful protesters. Hopefully no one else gets hurt.

    1. Yeah Trump forced us to become violent, it wasn’t like we tried to lock people in a building while we set it on fire before Trump acted, or followed people home and harassed them. It is all Trump’s fault goddamnit.

    2. And you label Vancouver a shithole city but get upset when people call Portland a shithole city. Really, don’t you see the hypocrisy of your statements?

      1. Meant below to reply to you, cuz Vancouver is a shithole and Portland is not… Very simple. Anyone could see that sending in DHS troops was gonna incite people. That’s why the mayor and governor didn’t want them. Trump got what he wanted: more violence cuz he thinks it will help him win. Never mind what’s right, would reduce violence, or truth. Those things don’t matter as long as he gets reelected. He wants to see cities burn if it helps him. Many of his supporters are too stupid or don’t care. They’re facist.

        1. Define fascist and define what makes Vancouver a shithole. Also, most of the Pacific Northwest outside the i-5 corridor considers Portland to be a shithole. Hell they even label Boise East Portland because they consider it an insult. And yes I’ve been to Portland and my SIL, who voted for Sanders, left Portland, for in her words, to get away from that crime infested shithole and get back to real people. Yeah, a granola, sanders voting, self proclaimed hippie thinks Portland is a shithole after living there for seven years.

          1. I love visiting and camping in eastern Oregon and Idaho, but most the people are backwards rednecks. Boise has some nice parts, and Idaho north of lewiston is cool. Southern idaho is full of mormons and practically Utah. So southern idaho and Utah are objectively shithole theocracies and the world would be better off if we got rid of all the mormons. If they hate Oregon or Portland that’s a good thing because they’re all scumbags. Your SIL is just one person, and if she’s anything like you she’s a cunt. For every person like her there’s 3 to 4 who move to Oregon. It’s caused housing and rent to skyrocket in price. Facisim used colloquially can mean lots of things. Someone who impses their views by force. Extreme far right nationalism. Ultra nationalism is usually what comes to mind.

            1. Thank you for proving my point. Thank you for showing your bigotry so transparently.
              They disagree with you so they are evil and backwards. And shitholes. Well guess what, your way of thinking is why everyone else, including my SIL considers Portland a shithole. And why she has disavowed the progressive movement. Because you are all narrow minded bigots who castigate and demonize rural people and anyone who doesn’t fall lockstep into your thinking. Good little Brownshirts, you are.

            2. Uhm check your trends again, people are fleeing Portland and Seattle. The moving companies can’t keep moving vans in stock.
              And you are now calling for the genocide of an entire religious sect (BTW a certain Austrian vegetarian failed painter also felt Mormons should be completely wiped out and killed a number of them in work camps). And as for me being a cunt, why? Or my SIL? Because I don’t agree with you? Because I question you? How dare I not buy into your group think. Thank you for proving how narrow minded and bigoted you are. I love it when the bigots out themselves with no help from anyone else.

              1. You’re wrong people are moving here. Moving companies data? I think the census would be more accurate. Housing and rent prices too. You don’t even know if I’m progressive or not and I could care less if the cunt SIL of a warmongerer hates progressives or Portland. That’s anecdotal. Anyone who defends Mormons is a piece of shit, so I’m glad you disagree with me. Mormons want to turn our country into a theocracy. Anyone who believes the nonsense they believe and worships con artists, pedophiles, and racists is better off dead. They try to convert everyone the contact and breed like rabbits. I’m not gonna let them take over our country and force their extreme nonsense views on us.

                1. Please get fucked with a running, rusty chain-saw, lefty shitbag scum.

                2. What makes you think I’m a warmonger? Oh if you are a veteran you must love war right? The census is ten years old. And we are talking current conditions not ten years ago.
                  As for your being a progressive, it is fairly obvious by your username, your reference to everyone who is rural as backwards and your defense of the violence in Portland, as well as your constant blaming the right and castigation of the right. And once again, isn’t it a bit misogynistic to label a woman you never met a cunt? And you still haven’t explained what backs up your assertion that I am a cunt. So far it amounts to disagreeing with you.
                  Also, you don’t deny being a bigot I see.

                3. Mormon Lives Matter, man.
                  Don’t try to advocate for the annihilation of a minority group because you don’t agree with their lifestyle choices or belief system.

              2. I’m not a bigot. Mormons are the ones who hate gays, didn’t let black people join till 1978, and want to bring back prohibition. Mormons are the bigots. If I’m “bigoted” against them I don’t care. No one is forcing them to believe the nonsense they believe, but the definitely wanna force others to believe what they believe. That’s facisim.

                1. No they don’t hate gays and no they don’t want to force anyone to believe they way they believe. They will try to convert you but never force you. And that isn’t fascism btw. And yes, they have their skeletons, like anyone else, but 1978 was 41 years ago. You don’t know Mormons you just have a caricature and you’ve developed a hatred based upon superficial generalizations. That is exactly the definition of bigotry almost the Webster definition word for word. Sorry, but you are a bigot. You just keep proving it by your misrepresentation of rural people and Mormons. No one forces you to be a bigot but you seem to embrace it. Your last post is a textbook example of bigotry. Bringing up past sins to condemn tens of millions of people around the world because of what their predecessors done. And also, whole most oppose drinking, I’ve never heard one propose prohibition be reinstated. Never in church, never at any gathering, never in their church literature.

                2. Fascism is a system of government with centralized control that uses force to control the population and is marked by tyranny. None of this describe Mormons, who tend to eschew centralized Government (mainly because they have been persecuted throughout their history by centralized governments) and don’t believe in using force to make anyone do anything. Well at least since Bringham Young died they don’t use force. However, you deciding that they need to be killed is pretty much text book fascism.

            3. You are just a simple minded bigot.

          2. Hell I’m just a few miles up I5 from Portland and readily admit that it’s turned into a shithole.

        2. Please get fucked with a running, rusty chain-saw.

          1. Good one Sevo!where in california do you live? Incest ferry? Cousin fucker gulch?

            1. Can you post any original insults? Or is it all worn out left wing trope with you?

            2. Which one was your birthplace, hicklib?

    3. Yeah…. the white youth of Portland are outraged by the systemic racism of the Portland police, who are in league with white supremacists from the northern suburbs. Because that is how progressive politicians in portland roll. They love them some systemically racist police.

      And those disaffected youth are down with the struggle against systemic racism because of all of those black people they have never met, because they don’t live there.

      It is just a vapid argument.

      1. There’s plenty of evidence (text messages,selective enforcement) of the PPB colluding with the proud boys. Why can’t they hold their gun jerk off rallies in Vancouver? I’m sure some Antifa knuckleheads would show up, but it wouldn’t be as bad as when they do it in Portland? It’s because they are looking to brawl with the Antifa knuckleheads, and they know the cops are in their side.

        1. So, because they disagree with you they shouldn’t be allowed to travel to Portland?

          1. That is precisely what the chief of police said. He said that in order rlto support the freedom of speech of all people, he ordered his department to block trump supporters from entering the city. He lamented that some got through.

            He did not lament the innaction of his officers as mobs of mostly peaceful protesters “tossed objects” (cnn term. Tossed)), LOL) at them, blocked vehicles and attempted to assault people.

            He did lament the sophomoric actions taken by those trump supporters to protect their right to drive down a public street.

            Free speech in that area seems to mean something different than the definition we normally use around here.

            1. Yeah. Seems like it and KillAllRednecks wonder why people don’t agree with him that Portland isn’t a shithole?

      2. I don’t get what’s bad about calling out racism. Portland is really white compared to other cities, but there are still lots of non whites. It’s anecdotal, but when I was with my black friends I’ve gotten pulled over and stopped a few times, but doesnt seem to happen if I’m with other whites. I’ve heard plenty of stories about the PPB and watched the news growing up. They have problems.

        1. Calling out racism is fine, it’s using violence to get your point across that is wrong. And not everything you label as racism is actually racism. And some of us have far more experience with living with minorities than most whites. We actually don’t divide people by races. I grew up on an Indian Reservation myself. But I am betting because I am from Idaho you think I have no experience with other races.

    4. KillAllRednecks tells us all will be peaceful if we don’t “provoke” the Redneck-killers with “DHS troops.

      You can’t make this shit up.

      1. Yeah he blames Trump while unironically using the handle KillAllRednecks and calling every city but Portland a shithole.

        1. I can tell from your username you served? In what conflict?

          1. Because I am a veteran I had to serve in a conflict? Or am I not a real veteran unless I saw combat?
            Just FYI, I have a GWOT and an OIF/OEF campaign ribbon but spent my time as an instructor and providing medical support. I volunteered for combat but the Army placed me somewhere else. In fact even during the height of the war, the percentage of veterans who saw combat was less than 50%.

            1. Just curious because from my experience people who joined the military post 9/11 put their life in the line to occupy a country that didn’t attack us.

              1. Well I joined before 9/11 but went back in. And when I joined Clinton was sending our troops to die in several countries that didn’t attack us. Bosnian, Kosova, Albania etc. Also, we fought in two countries, one of which did protect the people who attacked us and provided them support. Again, did you forget Afghanistan?

                1. The OEF part refers to operation enduring freedom which was the codename for operations in Afghanistan. If you weren’t aware.

        2. I didn’t call every city a shithole. I called vancouver a shithole. Southern idaho and Utah are shitholes because they are run by evil Mormons. I thought of a good definition for fascist: Mormon.

          1. How many Mormons do you actually know and how much of that is ignorant caricatures? And what makes Mormons fascist? Please what part of mormonism is fascist? My mother’s family is largely Mormon and they are the most caring and welcoming people I’ve ever met, they’d give you the shirt on their backs. They have openly welcomed in spouses of my cousins from all races. My Mormon cousin is married to a Thai immigrant. My Mormon aunt and uncle have always hosted Asian and South American foreign exchange students. So what makes them fascist? BTW, just so you are aware the fascist actually killed thousands of European Mormons during the Holocaust. Just thought you’d like to be aware of that fact before you label Mormons fascist. Might want to rethink that approach.

            1. I lived in Utah for a year or two. So I knew hundreds of mormons, and 90% of them were evil bigoted facists. That’s how I know I’m right. Why are you defending mormons? You know they want to try and force you to believe the crap they believe? Do you like alcohol? Cuz they hate it and wanna ban it.

              1. No they don’t. And I bet you I know far more Mormons and have interacted with them far longer and more intimately then you have. And I’ve never once heard any try to force me to change. They have talked to me about converting but never forced me to. Nor have they ever mentioned once banning alcohol. And you lived in Utah, so what? From your attitude I am betting you only thing out with like minded people and acted the complete ass to Mormons. And I object to bigotry especially religious bigotry. And what you are doing is textbook religious bigotry.
                And you still are using the word fascist wrong. What you are describing isn’t fascism.

                1. ” I’ve known more mormons and interacted with more” that’s not something to brag about dude! I knew hundreds cuz literally 95% of my classmates and co-workers were mormons. I lived in Provo which is Mormon capital of the world. The college their is named after their 2nd racist pedophile prophet. Their first prophet joseph smith was a con artist pedophile. They’re whole religion is based on the ramblings of a con artist who wanted to fuck 50 different women. I was super nice to them mostly cuz I was outnumbered. Before I moved back to Oregon I told some of them that they were bigoted assholes. I don’t care if you call me a religious bigot. THEYRE RELIGION SHOULD BE RIDICULED! ITS BASED ON THE RANTINGS OF A CON ARTIST PEDOPHILE. ARCHEOLOGIST S HAVE FOUND 0 EVIDENCE TO BACK UP THE BS CLAIMED IN THE BOOK OF MORMON. Why do they send their sons to other countries to knock on people’s doors? If I wanted to buy a beer on Sunday I couldn’t(hell in many places in Utah and Idaho everything is closed on Sunday) I don’t belong to their stupid religion why do they have strict tobacco and alcohol laws in Utah? That’s forcing their fucked up views on the non Mormons there

                  1. Most the stores here in Eastern Montana, including most bars are also closed on Sunday. And they number of Mormons in this area would hardly fill a minivan. Buying a beer on Sunday is proof of anything. And you lived their for 1 year you said. I grew up with it. And no, I don’t believe their religion but I also don’t think because it is laughable they deserve to die. Fuck keep proving how much of a bigot and fascist you really are. The more you argue against it, the more you prove it. And every church sends out missionaries the Mormons just do it on a grander scale.

                    1. Montana has weird alcohol laws, but it’s cuz of lobbyists. Im relieved I disagree with you about everything. The mormons are waiting to make their move. It might not be in my lifetime or they could be stopped. I spent enough time around them to know they are a rotten people who can’t be fixed, that’s why they need to die cuz they will never see what they’re doing is wrong. anyone who believes the kooky shit mormons believed has almost no chance of seeing how fucked up theyre. They’re waiting for more braindead converts and Mormon voters to be born. I don’t care what you fucking say. You and your family are scumbags if you codone LDS bullshit. I’m sure the people who knew your hillbilly SIL were grad she left. And if she’s married to a veteran it means she’s probably a warmonger.

                  2. Minnesota is mostly Lutherans and Catholics hardly people known as teetollars but you can’t buy beer ABV above 3.5 except in liquor stores and most stores are closed on Sunday and until recently you couldn’t buy alcohol on Sunday either.

              2. “I lived in [New York] for a year or two. So I knew hundreds of [black]s, and 90% of them were evil bigoted [n*gger]s. That’s how I know I’m right.”

                1. Nardz, race, gender, sexual orientation aren’t a choice. No one is forcing them to believe the nonsense they believe. Utah is one of the most conservative states in the country. Mormons hate gays. I know I’m right and fuck you for defending scumbag mormons. I was right that most reason commenters are fucking morons. You all blindly follow Trump and support mormons. Mormons are not libertarian at all btw

                  1. Religion isn’t immutable. That’s why all Mormon’s have to die.

                2. If a bunch of Mormon lovers hate me I’m doing something right.

                  1. “If a bunch of N****r lovers hate me I’m doing something right.”

            2. Do the world a favor and kill your mother’s family. Many think mormons are just hanging harmless religious kooks.”theyre so friendly!” They are friendly cuz they want to convert you. Once they have enough converts, first they’ll ban alcohol. “Some people will be upset, but they’ll get over it eventually and it’s for the greater good.” “Jeez, sorry. You know you only drink it cuz it’s addictive? I’ve had non alcoholic wine, people only drink it cuz they’re addicted. We’re helping you.”

              1. Killing people because they belong to the wrong religion. And you have the balls to call others fascists. It is funny, because you and Hitler agree on killing Mormons simply for being Mormon. Is that a death head in your pocket?

                1. Eisenhower liked Hitler’s roads. Are you gonna criticize Eisenhower? I don’t consider mormons people cuz, they try to convert everyone to their religion that makes no sense. Anyone dumb enough to believe what they believe deserves to die

                  1. So converting people to your religion makes you not human? And your point about Eisenhower is a non-sequitor. And you don’t just agree with Hitler, you are calling for the same exact bigotry driven crimes against humanity that he used. You are supporting an aim of the Holocaust. Not sure why it is evil to ask people to convert. They aren’t forcing it. It doesn’t matter if you do or don’t. No Mormon I have ever known has ostracized me when I’ve told them no thanks, nor did my family disown my mother when she left the church and converted to my father’s church. Keep showing it up the more you try and defend yourself, the more everyone sees how much of a bigoted little hate filled fascist you are. And I am not meaning that hyperbolically, what you are arguing for is textbook fascism. Not even a debate. 100% fascism.

                    1. Ok dude, you’ve been charitable to this asshole long enough. Let him stew in his hate.

                  2. I don’t consider muslims people cuz, they try to convert everyone to their religion that makes no sense

              2. You keep saying they are going to ban alcohol, but alcohol wasn’t ever banned ven in Utah, except when the prohibitionist got the Constitiuton to change and prohibition was mostly methodists. I can buy beer in just about any restaurant in southern Idaho or Utah. And so what if they disagree with drinking, good for them. It’s their choice. That doesn’t make them evil. Muslims also don’t allow drinking, and unlike Mormons, actually do ban it in the countries they control. But if anyone said kill all Muslims I doubt you’d agree with that. They also are far harsher in regards to homosexuals and really do use force to convert people. But I would also state anyone who says kill all Muslims is a bigot.

                1. They will eventually if they aren’t stopped. They have restrictive alcohol laws there(they relax them in touristy areas, one thing that’ll get mormons to look the other way from there dumb beliefs us money. They’re all super greedy too.) They know if they tried banning alcohol now wouldn’t work, so they’re waiting till they’ve converted and had enough bastard Mormon kids to control more states. Why do they breed like rabbits? Other religions don’t use birth control but don’t end up with 9-15 kids a family?

              3. Every religion wants to “convert” you. Your hatred of LDS is weird.

                1. Not every religion goes door to door and basically requires all men to spend 2 years going door to door. Not all religions have such homogeneous and restrictive beliefs. And not all religions are based on the rantings of a con artist pedophile. I feel so good seeing all you moron Trump loving Mormon lovers try to defend mormonism. Fuck you far right kooks. Have fun living under a theocracy

            3. The Mormons I worked and went to school with alternated from trying to convert me to ostracizing me cuz my politics and use of alcohol tobacco and drugs. I never tried to force anything on them, but they believed I was what’s wrong with the world cuz I dran, smoked and didn’t have extreme right political views. Not all Mormons are kooks but 90% are and the other 10% is dumb enough to believe the nonsense they believe. Why do you think mormons are so friendly? They’re overly friendly! It’s cuz they wanna convert as many as possible. They breed like rabbits and convert so many so they can turn Utah(first Utah, then idaho, then the US) into a theocracy. I knew I was right to not like you. You’re SIL is a cunt and you have Mormon family members. How do I know you’re not Mormon? Mormons lie and cheat all the time. They can’t be trusted. I pray your mother’s family does. The world would be such a better place without mormons.

              1. I am Lutheran and they didn’t agree with you so therefore they are evil. That says it all. Right there. And no, they aren’t trying to convert Utah into a theocracy. They did back in the 1850s but that was a long time ago. And you don’t like people because of who their families are? Really and you claim not to be bigoted. You just admitted that they disagreed with you so therefore they are bad. And you ascribe evil intent that is pure conspiracy theory. And you label them as either evil or stupid. You really aren’t helping your claim that you aren’t bigoted. And I consider it an honor that a bigoted little fascist like you doesn’t like me. It is a compliment. Because your stand on Mormons is textbook fascism. And bigotry.
                You just can’t help yourself. And I know Mormons who are far right, but also know many who are progressive and moderate right. There almost 7 million Mormons in the US alone. And you just castigated them all based upon very limited exposure and bad personal experience and I am betting you didn’t just disagree with them. Based upon your actions here I am betting you insulted them and spew forth nothing but hatred. And then acted surprised when they ostracized you. Because I can tell that you can’t recognize your own bad behavior and always believe you are the victim. That everyone else is to blame and you are perfect. I am betting you caused most of the problem because you are a hate filled bigot who looks down his nose at everyone. You as much as admitted that multiple times today. And you actually support the genocide of people because you disagree with them. And you label others fascists. Do you not understand irony? You have to be a parody because did hate to think anyone was this little self aware.

                1. THEYRE EVIL CUZ THEY TRY TO FORCE THEIR NONSENSE BELIEFS ON OTHERS. If they left others alone they could believe whatever bs they wanted, but they want to force their beliefs on others. I don’t care if you call me bigoted. Race, gender, sexual orientation is not a choice. NO ONE IS FORCING THEM TO BELIEVE TJE RAMBLINGS OF A CON ARTIST PEDOPHILE. THEY CHOOSE TO AND SHOULD BE RIDICULED BECAUSE THEYRE BELIEFS ARE SO FUCKING DUMB AND THEY TRY TO CONVERT EVERYONE. when I lived there the smoking age was 19. Is it a coincidence that the state run by mormons has the most restrictive alcohol and tobacco laws? No it’s not. I’m glad you don’t like me. Fuck any Mormon lover. They’re scumbags. It’s not worth my life or freedom, but if I knew I would 100% not get caught I’d shoot up an LDS church AND ID BE A HERO!

                  1. You expect that pile of bullshit to be engaged by anyone above the 3rd-grade level? And do you hope any adult would read that as other than a some infantile un-hinged rant?
                    I’d figured you to be a run-of-the-mill lefty shit-bag; now it seems you might well be a contender with OBL as some parody account.

                  2. I think i can clarify what’s going on with KillAllRednecks.

                    He went to college in Utah, where he discovered that he was of subpar intelligence. He failed to make any friends, probably because he’s an obnoxious asshole with no redeeming qualities, and was lonely. He probably tried to get sympathy from girls, thinking they’d pity-fuck him, but they wouldn’t because he’s creepy and unattractive.

                    He’s super resentful, and too psychologically weak to assess himself honestly and do any work to admit his faylts and work to improve himself. Since owning up to his immense self-loathing would lead to suicide, he latches onto an ideology that encourages his hatred and redirects it toward another object (a scapegoat if you will…). That ideology is the entirety of his identity, because without it he’s worse than nothing – he’s just himself

                    1. Short version: he found college humiliating, and has turned that feeling of failure and inadequacy into hatred for Mormons/conservatives, who he has projected all his self loathing onto

                    2. His characterization of ALL Mormons is rather telling.
                      Seriously, you lived in Utah for two years, and didn’t meet a single person who wasn’t Mormon?
                      Every Mormon you’ve ever met is ‘far-right’? Seriously?

                      I’d say he’s painting with a broad brush, but it’s more like a five foot wide roller.

                2. Does your mom’s family wear magic underwear? Ask them about blood atonement? Why did joseph smith, brigham young, john taylor, and all the other early prophets practice polygamy? Why are there phrases in the book of Mormon that are also found in the king james bible despite Mormons believing the BOM was compiled and redacted centuries prior. Why are there so many anachronisms in the book of Mormon. Why has archeology supported 0 of it? I know why: BECAUSE A CON ARTIST NAMED JOSEPH SMITH PULLED IT OUT OF HUS ASS AND THOSE BIGOTED BACKWARDS FASCISTS BASE THEIR WHOLE LIVES AROUND IT. If it weren’t enough that the religion is incredibly stupid, but they also travel to different countries and try to convert everyone they come in contact with. They breed like rabbits so they will eventually have enuf Mormon voters to turn the country into a extreme right wing theocracy. Fuck mormons and fuck the people who defend their despicable asses.

                  1. Yes they wear garments. And blood atonement is doctrine most people misrepresent. As for your theory that the laws in Utah on alcohol is because of Mormonism, Minnesota has similar laws and is dominated by Catholics and Lutherans. jim Beam is distilled in a dry county were drinking is forbidden. The laws aren’t unique. They are wrong but not unique to Mormonism. Hell as a Lutheran I somewhat believe in the body transfiguration of the communion. Every religion has their quirky beliefs that seem weird to outsiders.

                  2. Whoa! We got a raging maniac here!
                    I really don’t care about Smith or Young; they affect my life not at all. And the same is undoubtedly true of you and other idiots like Misek.
                    Fuck off.

                  3. Now run along I am sure you have to get ready for your next SA meeting. Fuck, I juSt can’t believe anyone is this unselfaware. Your have to be trolling or a parody, right? I mean I doubt I’d read anything more hate filled on stormfronts. Your rhetoric would embarrass most Neo-Nazis and Klansman (who BTW share your viewpoints on Mormonism, good company for you I think).

                    1. Mormons are mostly far right, so they’re more Naziish than me. I know you idiot right wing kooks try to tell yourself nazism and racism are left wing ideologies, but actual experts put them on the right(to be fair they can include things from all over political spectrums). Mormons are the ones who didn’t allow black people in till 78. They hate gays. And no one has defended their doctrine of beliefs? Because you all know it’s fucking stupid. Realize you’re all defending the rantings of a con artist pedophile.

                    2. I’ve seen many posters on here(facetiously maybe) talk about arming themselves for the election and killing prog scum. They probably were joking. How is the nonsense mormons believe not as bad as any ideology that people hate. It’s worse because it makes no sense and they will literally come to your house to try and convert you. You all are either Mormon your selves or fucking dumb as shit for defending the pieces of shit.

                    3. Not even Misek is more Naziish than you

                3. “I know Mormons who are far right, but also know many who are progressive and moderate right.” To a leftist fanatic, progressive and moderate right – or anyone but another subscriber to their exact leftist sect – is evil and must be destroyed. Remember how the French Revolution ended…

                  As for their ability to reason, KillAllRednecks is, by his own screen name, trying to start a war with the Americans who own most of the guns – and has not considered how getting that wish would work out.

              2. EVERYTHING IS SO TERRIBLE AND UNFAIR!!!!!’

                Haha. What a whiny bitch.

      2. When protests for police reform are met with more aggressive and excessive police force it should be obvious it’s not going to make things better.

        1. When the protestors burn down buildings and destroy businesses why shouldn’t they be met with police response? Circular logic that 8svalk you have.

          1. How is pepper spraying and beating peaceful protestors ok cuz others are causing damage? Arrest the ones causing damage! Don’t arrest the peaceful ones. Also the feds beat up that navy veteran.

            1. The knuckleheads nixed in with the crowds, pepper spray is meant to disperse the crowds so they can make arrests more safely. If the police had entered the crowds to arrest them, would the crowds have allowed it? Again circular logic. Yes most might have been peaceful protestors but the violent ones were using the peaceful protestors as cover. The cops either allowed the violence to continue or tried to Wade into crowd to arrest those hiding in the crowd or dispersed the crowd. Which choice is the best one?

              1. Libertarians are not supposed to support the most efficient means possible for the state to put people in cages.

                Half of the freedom you’re supposed to care about is about making it a challenge for the stage to punish you for crime. If they can’t find the perps without committing violence against many innocent people, that should be tough shit for the cops.

      3. They shouldn’t be bringing their loaded guns to brawl with other assholes in Portland. They’re just causing trouble. I’ve always thought some of the Antifa buttjoles may have lost interest if they didn’t have the proud it’s coming to Portland on weekends.

        1. Yeah because 100 days of rioting says they are ready to lose interest. And it seems that the Antifa was also carrying loaded guns, why did they have them?

    5. They collude with the far right armed thugs

      Left wingers claim this because police recognized antifa were the aggressors. This is the sort of propaganda nonsense we already get from Tony and CJ caused by their complete inability to understand the world around them.

      1. Both sides are the aggressors. I assume the bitch ass police like the Blue lives matter crowd sucking their dicks. Anyway they should enforce the laws equally for Antifa and the small dick gun club.

        1. Yes they should and that includes the DA not charging any of the rioters but charging anyone who is a proud boy and or a patriot prayer member, as he has done and it is well documented that is exactly what he has done over the past years.

          1. Please show me where proud boys got charged? A few have, and one of them had his probation revoked yet was allowed to fight in portland. but there’s been dozens of protesters arrested, many peaceful. There’s.text exchanges between cops and the small dick gun club. If you say they aren’t colluding you’re lying

            1. Last year during the last confrontation the Proud boys were charged. And what did the proud boys and the patriot prayer folks do wrong this time that warranted getting arrested? Maybe that is why they didn’t get charged.

  39. Because Vancouver is a shithole and Portland isn’t. It’s pretty simple…

    1. No, it is because you are a narrow minded bigots who forgive the evils of your side and blames them on everyone else. I mean look at you fucking username. It says it all about your judgement.

    2. BTW that isn’t an argument that is an assertion lacking evidence.

      1. Anyone from Portland can tell you Vancouver is a shithole.

        1. Gee, and why don’t I consider this a valid counterargument? Is it because most pricks from Portland are just like you and look down their noses at everyone else? Why yes that is exactly why. When everyone calls you a shithole but your main argument is no you are the shithole, it may just be that you are in fact the shithole in denial.

        2. Portland is a shithole if you live in Seattle, bitch.

          Of course, Seattle is a shithole too.

        3. Ask anyone in [City] what they think about [neighboring city]. They’ll tell you they hate it.

          What a self-fulfilling prophecy. People live in the city they prefer, and will tell you the reasons why they don’t live somewhere else.

    3. Please get fucked with a running, rusty chain-saw again.

        1. You’re welcome, lefty shtibag scum!

        2. Sevo doesn’t make apologies he owns his trollishness and his partisanship, he doesn’t try to make excuses for it like you do. You can’t help it. You literally just labeled an entire global religious movement, numbering hundreds of millions fascist and said they deserve to be wiped out. Ironically Hitler, an actual fascist tried to do exactly that during the Holocaust.

          1. Every leftist is fundamentally dishonest to their very core. That is why they are leftist. It has to make for a tortured life.

            1. Leftism is a personality disorder

            2. I dunno, this sounds kinda fashy to me.

              1. See KillAllRednecks final solution plan for 7 million Mormons he doesn’t agree with and get back to us on who is the fascist here.

          2. I appreciate your ‘defense’, but it’s not required.
            Given a claim which is shown and proven, I’m more than willing to yield the point, but I’m not willing to yield a point to the fucking lefty ignoramus KillAllRednecks.
            I’m not by any means a troll; I’m not willing to allow that sort of bullshit to go without challenge.
            Simply KillAllRednecks is a fucking lefty ignoramus, bereft of any evidence supporting his/her bullshit clams and, yes, it is beyond doubt that the world would be better if shit-for-brains like KillAllRednecks were dead. And their families would be prount

  40. Leftists are psychotic.
    We have videos explicitly showing the case of self defense in Kenosha, and political murder in Portland.
    This is literally indisputable.
    But here’s the hive mind disputing it.
    There is no compromise with the hive mind, because its fantasy rejects reality.
    It would be nice if we could leave its members to themselves, but the hive mind is totalitarian.
    Its destruction is inevitable. Its demand is to take the rest of us with it.
    It can no longer be tolerated.

    1. Then what are you doing here on a comment board? Time for you to go join the fight, don’t you think?

      1. This is part of the fight.
        I’ll venture to other fields when it’s sensible

        1. Uh huh sure

    2. Leftists got to the prosecutor?

    3. Righties think it’s perfectly normal for a 17 year old kid to have an assault rifle at a civil disturbance. You also defend the rantings of a pedophile con artist. Goddamn you cons are morally bankrupt.

      1. An AR is not an assault rifle…

        1. And as it turns out the AR was needed

            1. Kyle can fondle its memory as he’s getting passed around on the cellblock.

              I have heard that pudgy, racist dropouts have a great time in prison.

              1. Uhm you realize Kyle is bi-racial?

              2. Stop imagining underage kids getting raped, dude.

  41. Summary: Nancy Rommelmann unleashes a torrent of false equivalence.

    1. Really, how did you get that take? It contrasts with your preferred narrative?

      1. Equating pstriot prayer and a (completely legal and orderly) joyride through the city to antifa and their rioting is definitely a false equivalence

      1. Nice

        BTW: has your fat ass ever considered that you might be the source of your emotional problems?

        1. Have you considered getting help for your fascist desire to murder innocent people?

          1. I don’t want to murder anybody.
            Fighting back against the totalitarian socialism you support, like tyrants mandating shutdowns/masks or roving bands of pedophile political thugs terrorizing innocent people, on the other hand is simply a necessity at this point.
            You gotta learn some new words, because you pretty much never use ‘fascist’ or ‘racist’ correctly.

          2. Funny you label Nardz a fascist but given the long thread of KillAllRednecks defense of his proposed final solution for 7 million Mormons, you didn’t bother to say a word.

      2. And how much violence and property damage was there?

    1. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-craigslist/fact-check-craigslist-ad-seeking-actors-to-protest-against-trump-is-doctored-idUSKBN2411EH

      I think it’s cute that even the phony hoax liberals from your phony hoax fake doctored bullshit support a $15/hr wage.

      1. Somebody explain to Tonie the difference between wage and wage-at-gunpoint.

  42. And, of course, Kyle Rittenhouse is under arrest, while Michael Reinoehl is just “under investigation”.

    1. Amazing how that works huh. No politicking going on there right? No way!

      1. Reinoehl was doing the statists bidding.
        Rittenhouse was defying them

  43. So Kyle Rittenhouse is just a dumb kid? As it turns out not so much.

    Yes he probably should have not been in the shit hole he was in. But when you are in the shit hole AR15’s come in handy.

    Lesson learned.

    1. The Patriot Prayer folks should take note. Next time you wade into ANTIFA. Bring the AR

  44. Is there a way to donate money directly to ROMMELMANN? I don’t want to give it to Reason and have it end up in Suderman’s hands. Can we take a vote and get him kicked off the Reason Roundtable?

    1. Maybe she has a pateon?

  45. Sheriffs to Portland: “You broke it, you fix it.”

    Best take away today.

  46. “Michael Reinoehl”

    Well, at least Nancy will say his name.

    It has yet to appear in the Washington Post.

    Wonder why?

  47. Nancy Rommelmann is an ardent apologist for armed, violent bigots.

    Fuck her and her disaffected wannabe journalist “career.” Outside the clingerverse, I doubt any publisher as good as the average college newspaper would hire her these days.

    1. She’s an apologist for sel-declared Antifa Michael Reinoehl?

  48. And the Portland DA is apparently so afraid of what the mostly peaceful Antifa might do that he still hasn’t charged or arrested Michael Reinoehl.

    And the Washington Post still hasn’t mentioned his name.

  49. “Though Patriot Prayer had maintained virtually no presence in Portland since the protests began—up until Danielson’s murder by a self-proclaimed supporter of antifa, that is—that did not deter activists from seeing the murder as nothing to be sorry about. “<–This is a lie. Patriot Prayer was brawling so much in Portland a week before that shooting that the cops led them be and stopped intervening.

  50. At this point it’s just like watching typical gang warfare, that’s all it is.

  51. Why are all of these blue eyed cracka devils who protest out of state scum paid by Soros to agitate? Cause libtardians in their state were told this was a winning formula. Now that Black Lying Marxists approval has sunk to zero, the morons in the DNC have dropped their pet cause like a hot potato.
    Another idiot elected official stated that looters shouldn’t be prosecuted based on their needs.

    I need a Ferrari, let me know where the nearest dealership is and I’ll get my game face on.

  52. I’m having trouble being surprised. A bunch of religious mixed-economy statists gung-ho for the initiation of force flow into a bunch of less-religious or pagan collectivists equally thrilled at the initiation of force. Who’d a thunk someone might get hurt?

  53. “sending federal troops to Portland right now would almost surely escalate the conflict.” No it would not if they went in , as they should, with full auto and live ammo and mow the rioters down like weeds.

    1. And soon after, all libertarians (anarchists) would be rounded up and put in FEMA camps, to “make the U.S. Empire safe again”.
      Cause, do you want to be free or safe? Choose. Oh, never mind, we’ll choose for you, as your reps we can do that cause you voted your sovereignty away, remember?

  54. “ What we can know today is that his actions are a symptom of what happens when a movement gets such a glow that it attracts people ready to take things to the next level. ”

    Uh, okay.

    At exactly what stage of this homicidal Communist terrorist group’s existence were they not a bunch of violent sociopaths looking to install a totalitarian state to murder and enslave everyone else, again?

  55. One politician can order everyone in the jurisdiction (state, city) to stay at home indefinitely, except for protestors/rioters, and that’s not violence, but when another politician criticizes the violence stemming from the rioters, that’s the cause of the violence?
    And MSM pretends this makes sense. Then MSM/politicians claim libertarian-anarchists are nuts? I guess we’re lucky they didn’t blame us for the violence. Let them fight among themselves. We’ll pick up the pieces and bring reason, voluntarism to society.

  56. Check out the concept of the Overton Window. As public opinion shifts to the left or right (or is perceived to shift), fringe elements on one side or the other will believe their more radical and violent actions will be better received in the public eye. Push the window to the left, you get a nutcase antifa-type believing he can murder someone on the other side and get away with it.

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  58. Like ANTIFA found out the hard way in WWII, sometimes the only answer is that you just the kill the mother ʄuckers.

    Given Rightwing Conservatives embrace of “alternative facts” they have proven they are incapable of operating withing reality and need to be put down like the rabid dogs that they are.

    One could even argue that the brains structure difference between homo sapiens and those with the regressive Conservative mutation makes Conservatives a competitive hominid species – A competitive hominid species that is conspiring to commit mass murder on a global scale with AGW, when they are murdering people with their vile evil murderous pro-pollution ideology, for short term economic gain as the expense of human lives – making them no better than mob hitman.

    1. One could even argue that the brains structure difference between homo sapiens and those with the regressive Conservative mutation makes Conservatives a competitive hominid species

      ooooh… now do skin color difference

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