Coronavirus

Miami Police Setting Up 'Mask Traps,' Issuing $100 Fines to People Wearing Masks Improperly

The theoretical case for government mask mandates has to be weighed against the reality of their enforcement.

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It's been less than two weeks since Miami-Dade County announced it would be fining people for not wearing masks in public. Already, Florida media outlets are filled with stories of people cited for wearing masks improperly, lowering masks to sip a drink, or removing their face coverings once outside of a store.

On Thursday, the Miami Herald reported that the Miami-Dade Police Department has issued 162 citations for violating the county's mandatory mask ordinance, which comes with a $100 penalty.

One woman, Johanna Gianni, says she removed her mask in the parking lot of a Publix grocery store in North Miami Beach, when a police officer approached her and wrote her a ticket for not wearing a mask. Gianni told the Herald the parking lot was nearly empty and that she felt set up by police.

She's not the only one.

The ABC affiliate Local10 reports that Dean Gonzalez was fined while leaving a North Miami Beach Publix because his mask didn't cover his nose. The encounter was captured on video; in it, an officer can be heard telling Gonzalez that improper mask usage is as bad as not wearing a mask at all. Gonzalez accused the cops of setting up a "mask trap" and said that they threatened him with arrest if he didn't sign the ticket he was issued.

The Herald article includes several other examples of people being fined while wearing masks, including a customer at a barber shop who lowered his mask to take a sip of water right as a police officer entered the business.

NBC Miami reports that Miami-Dade police conduct 500 random compliance checks each day to enforce the county's public health ordinance.

The Herald also identified one Wawa convenience store where eight people were cited over two days for not wearing masks, suggesting that police are indeed setting up "mask traps."

Mask mandates have proliferated across the United States as a way of combating the spread of COVID-19. Police are often empowered to enforce these rules through fines and even arrests. Enforcement varies between jurisdictions, however, with some communities aiming for voluntary compliance.

Miami-Dade County appears to be among the most aggressive enforcers of its mask mandate. The Mercury News reports that in San Francisco, another large city with a mask mandate, police have issued 26 citations for violating that city's emergency health order.

One could make a libertarian case for government mask mandates during a pandemic, on the grounds that no one has an inherent right to cough deadly pathogens on another person. But that theoretical case has to be weighed against the reality of policing in America, where cops frequently resort to petty and overaggressive enforcement.

To judge from these reports in Miami, the pandemic has done little to change how such officers go about enforcing the law.

NEXT: The Government Should Stop Mandating the Use of "Race" in Medical and Scientific Studies

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  1. There is no case for requiring masks. It is a violation of people’s rights. If you don’t like people being fined for it, then don’t support the law.

    1. We don’t live in an anarchy. Meaning we do have a government and we do have government imposed rules. And our system provides for the government to impose emergency measures during an emergency.

      Now you could argue that there is no judicial oversight over the mandates, and you would be correct. But that in itself does not make the mandates against the law. Especially when it’s the government that has the monopoly for deciding what is the law.

      When you don’t fix your car and it belches noxious pollution onto other people, and the police tell you to stop, it’s NOT a violation of your rights. And when mask wearing has been shown to reduce the transmission then a mask mandate when in public is NOT a violation of your rights. What is wrong here is not the mandate, it’s the absence of judicial oversight and the cops setting up traps.

      1. “Meaning we do have a government and we do have government imposed rules. And our system provides for the government to impose emergency measures during an emergency.”

        +1, There’s a clear rational medical reason for requiring the masks. And yes, I know the point is somewhat debatable, but not to the point it trumps an emergency situation. It’s a temporary and mild usurpation of our rights.

        A temporary requirement to wear masks is less onerous IMO than a permanent requirement to wear seat belts or not being allowed to smoke in a bar or to not be able to hold your phone while driving.

        1. You can’t require shit if you cannot show I am sick. You are just expanding public health powers to take away the rights of everyone instead of just those who are sick.

          1. “You can’t require shit if you cannot show I am sick. ”

            Are you smoking crack John? Of course the government can require it. At best you can claim it’s not Constitutional. But that’s a matter for the Courts to decide on. And frankly, the Courts have a history of deciding in the favor of medical experts in these kind of crisis.

            The government can require you to wear a seat belt, it can require you to turn your radio down at night, to only walk across the street at a certain designated spot, to not be able to drink alcohol while you are walking down the sidewalk, etc.

            Those in my mind are all more onerous than requiring people to wear masks during a pandemic.

            You are picking a really dumb hill to die on.

            Furthermore, that comment is silly. The government all

            1. Since your only defense of it is an appeal to authority, I would say it is an excellent hill to die on.

              It has turned traditional public health powers on its head. Those powers are enormous because they are only supposed to apply to the sick. Apply them to everyone and we have no more rights. We live in a police stare right now with restrictions on our freedom that were unthinkable in the past. And people like you support it.

              There is always going to be the flu. By your logic, these measures can never be declared unlawful. You are literally advocating making all of our rights subject to some vague definition of pandemic or health. It is unbelievable that you could be so stupid not to understand that.

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              3. I am with you. The rest of these cowards can go suck it.

              4. You’re absolutely correct, John. Keep up the good work. Failure to get the annual flu vaccination kills plenty of folks. Nevertheless, fewer than 50% of folks bother to get a flu shot each year. We don’t see everyone wearing face masks during the flu season.

                But now, in the era of extreme virtue signalling, wearing a mask is a sign of true “caring” for one’s fellow humans. When will it end? Thanksgiving Holiday is my projected end date, as people accept the risk of seeing long, lost relatives (who might be infected) without the burden of masking up inside the host’s house.

                Be brave, Pilgrim!

            2. JWatts, I’d check what you are smoking. John is right. Unless it can be proven that a person has a disease or has been potentially exposed to a disease the edicts from the Health Department are non-binding. Now if the Governor petitions the Legislature and the Legislature agrees then the edict has the force of law. That has not happened in any State.

              1. ” Unless it can be proven that a person has a disease or has been potentially exposed to a disease . . . . ”

                How is anyone going to prove that? You best stay out of my medical records!

                1. That kinda sounds like a problem for the government there. A mandate they cannot defend is not one that should be enforced, IMO.

              2. No, it’s established law that Health departments can impose emergency measures in the case of a declared public health emergency. That’s indisputable.

                I understand that Libertarians have a problem with those measures, but they are completely legal. Furthermore, arguing against such popular measures is a hill you are choosing to die on. People will think less of Libertarians and will dismiss them as cranks if they refuse to follow emergency health measures.

                1. Established law where? Not here in Ohio where I live. Pandemics don’t suspend the constitution. The legislature exists for a reason. If it wants to create laws, with enforceable penalties, then it needs to run through the process. Govt just can’t make stuff up as it goes along.

          2. Doesn’t equality under the law mean you can’t single out only sick people, that it must be everybody or nobody?

            1. No. Equality under the law means you can’t single out people without a rational reason and some level of due process

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            2. Equality under the law doesn’t mean we have to arrest innocent people to balance out the number of guilty people who are arrested.

          3. That’s kindof like saying the government can’t require you to wear a seatbelt unless they can show that you are going to be in an accident

            1. Which would be fine, but also isn’t analogous.

              With a seatbelt, there’s always the possibility I get into an accident where it would’ve helped. It’s insurance against an unlikely but entirely possible event.

              With masks, there’s no chance I just randomly infect someone unless I’ve actually got COVID. There’s no “accident”, either I’m infectious or I’m not. It’s impossible for a healthy person to give someone else COVID, so requiring them to wear a mask accomplishes nothing as it isn’t even insuring against an unlikely but possible event. It’s insuring against the impossible.

              We can’t easily prove whether or not someone is infectious, so we have blanket mask mandates instead. That doesn’t mean they’re a good idea or that they’re not an expansion of government power.

            2. Well, there are still some of us who believe that mandatory seat belt laws are, despite now being accepted due to decades of enforcement, are still unconstitutional, and a flagrant violation of one’s rights. BYMMV

              1. Personally, I think the permanent mandatory seat belt laws are worse than the temporary mask requirements.

                1. I’ m honestly not sure why you assume mask mandates are temporary. I have little faith.

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                2. I’m not aware of any mask mandates with a fixed expiration date. They are permanent.

            3. Driving a car is not a right. If the state says you cannot drive, they have not actually violated any of your rights.

              It’s a dick move for sure…but not a constitutional matter.

              1. Driving a car on a public street is a right. The states just don’t recognize it.

        2. Nope.

          Aside from the fact that this was done via executive fiat rather than through the legislative process, this applies to everyone, not just those impacted by the virus. Sick people get quarantined, requiring healthy people to not work or not to congregate is a gross violation of rights.

          We know that most crime in neighborhood “X” is committed by a certain demographic group. Imposing a curfew on the entire group would be an unconscionable abridgment of rights. This is no different.

        3. Temporary? This is the new normal, dude. Governments are not going to relinquish these emergency power willingly.

          1. The ability to force people to wear masks is a pretty lame superpower.

            1. It takes a totalitarian state to enforce petty rules like that.

              1. Or a homeowner’s association.

                1. >>totalitarian state
                  >>homeowner’s association

                  same words, different letters.

                  1. Nope.
                    HOA has no guns.

              2. Like “petty” rules to wear clothes in public or not drive 100MPH on neighborhood streets.

                1. “Like “petty” rules to wear clothes in public or not drive 100MPH on neighborhood streets.”

                  Need help carrying that straw man around?
                  Fuck off, slaver.

          2. I’m telling you right now, there will be multiple vaccines approved and available within months. That STILL will not be enough for these people. They’ll keep it going as long as they can no matter what.

            1. Duval County (Jacksonville, FL) teachers union had a protest today, and they sound like extremely stupid people.
              If the chick who spoke for them was the best they had… yikes.
              Anyway, they want to prohibit schools from opening until there are 0 cases in the entire county for 14 straight days

              1. Whenever a school board election comes up, I find out if any candidate is endorsed by the teacher’s union. If so, I vote for their opponent.

              2. Note, at my college, the football players would mock education majors as jokes.

                Because they were jokes.

        4. There’s a clear rational medical reason for requiring the masks.

          No there isnt. For decades they have researched mask wearing in relation to the flu and cold. No research has even shown a correlation. The most comprehensive study was on dentists who wear masks always and they showed statistically no difference on infection rates.

          Until march of this year the CDV continued to post masks as not preventing cold and flu. They still say masks have no effect on the flu.

          What changed? Models claimed they had an effect.

          Social distancing and washing hands more likely has the stronger effect.

          1. For decades, it has been proven that wearing a masks cuts down on breathing in water vapor, etc. Just like wearing shoes helps from getting your feet wet. Only morons do not understand this.

            1. For decades, it has been proven that wearing a masks cuts down on breathing in water vapor, etc.

              Masks do not cut down on breathing in water vapor.

              And water vapor does not transmit disease.

              Geez, can you try to be at least marginally informed when talking about medical issues?

        5. An individual has no right to demand another individual to wear a mask. If they can, what’s to stop them from demanding you wear a hazmat suit? If you think that’s over the line, ask yourself this; 8 months ago, would you have thought it ok to demand someone wear a mask?

          1. You have a right do demand anything you want. And the gov’t has the legal authority to require that people wear clothing in public, including a mask to help prevent a deadly virus from spreading.

            1. And the gov’t has the legal authority to require that people wear clothing in public, including a mask to help prevent a deadly virus from spreading.

              Infringing on people’s rights in that way requires strong evidence that that infringement is justified based on scientific evidence; as far as masks are concerned, that evidence is lacking.

        6. There’s a clear rational medical reason for requiring the masks.

          There was a “clear rational medical reason” for eugenics, segregation, and forced sterilizations. I suppose progressives are consistent: they imposed those evil policies just like they are imposing mask wearing.

        7. I would buy your argument if there was an actual emergency. OF course there is NONE. If there was an emergency of this magnitude requiring masks, then why not mandate forced testing? FOrced Quarantine? Why don’t the police “check” the person’s temp to make sure they are not sick. I assure you, the science is clear that MASKS DO NOT PREVENT the spread of a virus. Why? They can’t stop a virus because it is too small. This started as a means to create a crisis to hang on Trump. Now it is laughable because the mortality rate of COVID – 19 is less than 1%. And you don’t arrive at mortality rate by dividing the total deaths by total recoveries – also another proof that the COVID – 19 Brown Shirts are not only fascists, they are stupid.

        8. A rational medical reason for requiring masks would require there to be empirical data supporting that reason. There is a dearth of evidence that masking requirements have any impact on an epidemic curve. Many of us have grown weary of governments jumping from fake measure to fake measure just to give the illusion that they have something uncontrollable under control.

        9. Ideally masks should be worn voluntarily. But compliance was low even when businesses required it . Where I work ( doctor clinic ) we had many patients or family members come in without masks despite clear signage saying it is required. Once the governor mandated it, that stopped the problem.

          And you would be surprised how many got angry when we told them they had to wear masks before the mandate.

      2. I am only a threat to someone if I am sick. If I am not sick, you have o right to force me to wear a mask. Public health powers have never been applied to the healthy or to those the government cannot prove are sick.

        By your logic the state could make it a crime to have sex without a condom. It doesn’t work that way and never has. You can’t force people to wear masks unless the government can prove they are sick. You assholes are abusing the public health powers to create a police state.

        1. TBF: In our current world, you absolutely can justify mask wearing. There are all sorts of risk-mitigation schemes imposed on people by law despite those people not engaging in NAP-violating behavior. Take Seatbelt and Helmet laws as a simple example.

          But from a libertarian perspective, you are absolutely right that mandating healthy people to wear a mask is clearly a violation of the NAP.

          1. Our current world is a police state the likes of which I never thought I would see in this country

            1. Which is why I tend to laugh when people condemn libertarian values because of some absurd hypothetical libertopia that, in their view, would be functionally like Somalia or whatever.

              We are far, far, far away from contemplating a reality where we “went to far” in pursuit of liberty. We literally have people using a virus to justify covering my daughters’ faces in public, sticking needles in their arms when a vaccine is available, and otherwise defining the terms of every social and commercial activity I am allowed to be in. We aren’t talking margins here. We are talking drastic reductions in our liberty.

              There may be a time to discuss what to do about Roadz, but that time is a long ways away. Let’s get the fucking government boot off our neck NOW, and then talk about the margins in a couple years.

              1. Pretty much all that.

              2. Yep. A libertarian administration could spend two full terms doing down the list of stuff that needs “fixing”, and we’d still be nowhere near the roads and nurses.

                End the Drug War
                Stop the Actual Wars
                Reform Civil Asset Forfeiture
                Massively reduce spying

                Nobody thinks we’d have 7 1/2 years left after tackling those issues. We’d likely not even get through those.

          2. Even in the US today, government infringement on individual rights needs to be justifiable; some of these mandates may not survive a court challenge.

          3. Seatbelts and helmets have actual data that show efficacy. Also, driving is not a right. Assembly in public places is.

        2. Life is a threat to people. We should arrest life.

      3. Your mask is off.

      4. So here’s the thing about masks: it’s not “just a mask”
        It’s a psyop.
        Pure gaslighting.

        Run scare stories, pitch her/experts’ “solutions”, and then run polls of picked (if not entirely invented) numbers that say she’s popular.
        That most people, not your neighbors but your neighbors’ neighbors, think she’s doing a good job and agree with her edicts. That maybe you’re assessment is incorrect. If most people think she’s doing the right thing, maybe you’re the crazy one.
        Then you submit. [This was in reference to Whitmer’s polling, but is generally applicable to all covid stats they’re pushing]

        Only, the media has tanked it’s credibility over the past decade, and especially the past 5. During that span 2 things happened: anthropogenic global warming (climate change if you prefer) gained cultural primacy, and social media gave everyone a public voice.

        AGW has been pushed so hard and became so widespread that everybody had to deal with it.
        But our experience of AGW is completely imaginary – we can’t feel it, and wouldn’t otherwise notice anything unusual. We can’t really relate to what AGWworld is supposed to be, what it feels like. So we have to invent prospective sensations out of whole cloth.
        Some experience(d) AGW as terrifying and apocalyptic (because that’s the moral of the AGW fantasy), others didn’t much care (because they can’t feel it).
        Then the story had to deal with billions of public voices, to one extent or another, talking about that fact. “Settled science” wasn’t so settled anymore, and AGW’s numbers were challenged out in the open.
        The prophecy isn’t looking so promising these days.

        Trust was lost because the primary threat sold to the public never appeared.

        “You can lie to all the people some of the time, and some people all of the time, but you can’t lie to all the people all of the time.”

        But they will try.
        And that’s where the mask comes in.

        They seemed to have learned from their AGW push. They’ve upped their game with covid19.
        That’s why the masks are such a big deal to the Faith.
        AGW doesn’t have enough effect. How do you make someone feel it?
        Fortunately (for them) the virus gives them the opportunity to utilize special effects.
        We notice the closed stores, the lost job or working from home, and especially the masks.
        Why especially? Because they’re ubiquitous and out of place. We remember to put them on before going into a store, or forget and have to go back to get it (reinforcing habituation through our instinct to correct error) – we are reminded that we must wear the mask.
        And we can feel it. Putting it on and taking it off, fogging our glasses, altering our breathing, and muffling our voices.
        We see, taste, hear, and touch the mask. I’m sure a lot of people smell it too.
        Unlike AGW, all 5 of our senses experience covid via the mask.
        Thus covid19 fantasy makes itself real, though a step removed.

        Does that make fighting the mask a hill to die on?

        1. And the purpose behind all this, as noted by John, overt, snd others above, is to *normalize* totalitarianism.
          To habituate people to having social interaction dictated from above.
          To make daily life as unintuitive and unnatural as they can get awY with

          1. Well, that turned out to be pretty easy. Very sad.

          2. Investments in public education finally paying off

      5. Where has mask wearing been shown to reduce the transmission of this virus? The virus is .1 micron. Even an N95 mask allows the passage of things as large as .3 micron. All masks do is impair the breathing of people who are forced to wear one. And we are being forced to wear one to supposedly reduce the small risk that an asymptomatic person passes on the virus through casual contact. The science didn’t change since March (when we were all told wearing masks is useless), only the politics changed. Authoritarian governments have become a bigger problem than the coronavirus.

        1. Your desperate fantasy world is a bore. We get that you are too cowardly to face the harsh reality of the pandemic, but pretending masks don’t work is especially pathetic. I truly pity you.

          1. We get that you are too cowardly to face the harsh reality of the pandemic, but pretending masks don’t work is especially pathetic.

            That’s pretty much the same totalitarian view the eugenicists in the US and Germany had in the 1930’s.

            I truly pity you.

            I truly despise you.

          2. Here is a summary with links to all the peer reviewed studies that show masks don’t work to stop the spread of viruses.

            https://www.rcreader.com/commentary/masks-dont-work-covid-a-review-of-science-relevant-to-covide-19-social-policy

      6. Brandybuck: “And our system…”? NOT “our system” your system. I repudiate the monopoly of violence, threats (law), fraud that was adopted with the Constitution by a minority who presumed to speak for all, giving themselves power to violate rights to protect rights.
        I’m not surprised the judicial branch of govt., appointed by the executive branch, doesn’t limit their brethren, their partners in crime.
        The protection from a few roaming sick coughing on others is not to lock down, put under house arrest, the entire populace. Arrest just the criminals and leave the rest of us alone. It’s only logical,

      7. @Brandybuck
        1. “Especially when it’s the government that has the monopoly for deciding what is the law.” That “monopoly” belongs to the legislature. The governor has absolutely NO authority to legislate. Period.
        2. If you’re not sick, you’re not “transmitting” anything. Therefore your point is invalid.
        3. This entire thing is a hoax from beginning to end. This particular variety of the HUGE family of corona viruses is in reality no more “deadly” than seasonal flu. And the high number of “cases” being reported by the whores in the media include every single variety of corona virus including the common cold.
        4. If you want to wear a face diaper, you should absolutely have the right to do so. Those studies you refer to do show that it reduces the likelihood of transmitting any respiratory illness, they also demonstrate that they are ineffective in preventing you from catching an airborne pathogen.
        So by all means, diaper up, but don’t expect those of us capable of looking beyond the MSM propaganda spouts to buy into the hoax.

      8. Thousands of people massing shoulder-to-shoulder in the streets and shouting is still okay though.

      9. What is wrong with the mandate is that it requires people who may not be spreading the virus to wear a mask.

      10. While I agree with your overall point, in this case, there’s more wrong than merely the absence of judicial oversight and cops setting up traps. The mandate as it’s written in Miami-Dade county is also a problem. Within MDC, one must wear a mask not only indoors and when in proximity to other people (when there’s a plausible health basis for wearing a mask) but also *when one is outdoors, far from any other human beings*. You can be outside 300 feet from the nearest other person, and you must be wearing a mask. There is no actual health basis for this; it is simply public health theatre.

        Oh, yes, and you must also force your *two year old* to wear masks, when outdoors, no other human being as far as the eye can see, in 90 degree heat and oppressive humidity. Now if you’re *smoking*, that’s another story. If you’re smoking, you can remove your mask, no matter how close you are to other people.

        https://www.miamidade.gov/global/initiatives/coronavirus/emergency-orders/emergency-order-20-20-amendment-1.page

      11. Your position is anti-libertarian.

        Virus spread is NOT an externality. If you stay on your property by yourself, you are unaffected.

        If you choose to go to a store that doesn’t require masks, you CONSENT to the risks. Let property owners decide. Get the gov’t out of it.

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      13. ” And when mask wearing has been shown to reduce the transmission then a mask mandate when in public is NOT a violation of your rights. ”

        That has never happened. Masks have not been shown to reduce transmission. That’s a flat-out lie. The truth was what we got from the WHO, CDC, and other health orgs when the plandemic started, which is that masks among the general populace do not help and can cause harm with regard to respiratory viruses. That was the dominant medical view (and still is, if you’re not pushing an agenda other than truth) based on 100 years of study of flu and cold and 20 studying SARS-CoV-1, the close cousin of SARS-CoV-2, the COVID virus. The entire paradigm of masking didn’t suddenly change within the first couple of months of the pandemic… it doesn’t happen that fast. To refute the well-established, uncontroversial view that masks among the public are not helpful for respiratory viruses would not and did not happen in two months. To make such a claim would be extraordinary, and as Carl Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. What we’ve seen isn’t even close to that standard.

        It has been known for ages that colds (both coronavirus and rhinovirus) and influenza spread by aerosol (airborne transmission). Why it was ever assumed that COVID does not is mystifying, but that’s the assumption, and all of the six foot rule and mask dogma is based on the idea that if you stop the droplet, you stopped the transmission. The idea that COVID does *not* transmit by aerosol would be another extraordinary claim for which there is no proof. Now the evidence has become quite clear, if you’re into the kind of science that is based on actual reality rather than adherence to a political narrative (to use Fauci’s word), that COVID is by no means unique among respiratory viruses. It’s also an aerosol virus, and masks and 6 foot rules are worthless against aerosol viruses.

        There was a study that had COVID patients (symptomatic) wear masks and cough onto viral growth media. The masks did not provide protection against the expelling of virions from the patients, and interestingly, the outside of the masks was where all of the virus particles were hanging out, not on the inside. Perhaps the airflow outward when the person coughed pushed the virions to the leeward side of the polypropylene fibers of the masks, while the rest were ejected into the test media as aerosols. We know masks can stop droplets, but it’s virions that make people sick, and they clearly do not stop virions.

        This “protection” provided by masks is not from the virus, but from fear of the virus, to those cowardly simpletons who believe the media and are not capable of seeing the obvious propaganda for what it is. That comes at a price for the wearer… masks cause people to touch their face far more than they otherwise would with their unwashed hands, and that puts the virus that may be on those hands right into the path of inhaled air. Brilliant, isn’t it? Even the surgeon general of the US warned about this early on. That, like the early advice of the CDC, was the stuff based on science.

        As if that was not enough, masks are also a putrid petri dish for bacteria that one wearz (again) right in the path of air he is inhaling. The inner surface of the mask is kept moist and incubated to near body temperature, and the bacteria are given a nice protein-filled snack of mucus to munch on while they colonize. That’s an environment rather similar to the inside of your lung, and any bacterium that happens to like colonizing inside people’s lungs (meaning that it is the kind that would infect your lung if given half a chance) would be very happy there. Having that many respiratory bacteria half an inch in front of where you inhale air into your lungs is not what I would call a good idea. You’re going to get the respiratory infection from those bacteria, and you’ll go to the doctor and probably be told you have COVID, and they will use that case as more proof that we need masks, just like the mask that caused the infection in the first place.

        Why should I be expected to take these risks in order to reduce the fear of some person I don’t even know? Their fear is not my problem, and it is certainly not my duty to place myself at actual risk of disease to reduce their irrational fear of me not wearing a mask.

        Despite what the government has been telling us, it is far from scientifically sound to suggest that asymptomatic spread of COVID is an actual thing. The result of one study that had 455 people exposed to a person infected with the virus but with no symptoms, for an average of 4 hours, was published here on Reason not long ago. None of the 455 caught COVID, and that was with four hours of exposure… which is WAY more than I would have with some random person at the grocery store.

        It matches what is already known about how viruses work. Viruses do not colonize like bacteria do… they can only reproduce by destroying your cells, and having your cells destroyed makes you sick. If you have so little of the virus that you feel fine, you haven’t had a lot of your lung cells killed by it, and that means it has not reproduced much inside you. That, in turn, means your viral load is low, which means your viral shedding is low, if present at all. You don’t get enough viral load to have significant shedding without symptoms.

        Again, COVID is not an amazing new supervirus… it’s a rather pedestrian virus that follows all the same rules as the other viruses of its type. We as a species have been studying coronaviruses (which cause a lot of colds) for decades. They’re not new. We, as a species, already know all of this.

        Even if masks did reduce the spread of the virus, that is not a desirable goal. We need it to spread (preferentially among the healthy, while the most vulnerable can choose to turtle up and try to ride this out if they choose) to get herd immunity and END IT. When you’re going through hell, keep going! Don’t slow it down… that just kills more people and prolongs the agony. Sweden, Belarus, and Uruguay got it right, but the rest of the world got it wrong.

        We do not know if a safe, effective vaccine will ever exist; none has for a virus of this type ever before. Until one does appear, we have to assume it will never exist, and that being the case, there is only one end to this, and that’s herd immunity by natural means. Nothing else is going to do anything else other than kick the can down the road a bit.

        The only thing that makes sense is to apply greater delaying measures for those who are the most vulnerable, though never against their wills, and to let the rest of us go out there (key word there is ‘let,’ not ‘make’) and take the hit on behalf of those who cannot. If we avoid taking the hit equally, we bend down the death curve by the same amount that we bend down the herd immunity curve. It accomplishes nothing other than changing the dates on a lot of death certificates, and at significant cost.

    2. The main issue I draw is the lack of congruent science behind it. Articles now say HVAC systems can spread it. If that is to be believed. Then the virus can make it through an industrial filter, blower, evaporator, and an immense system of ducting…. yet a cloth on the face is going to stop it? If a justification for limiting rights is to be made. It should be on solid fact. Not if’s, or maybes.

      1. Four months ago, it was obvious that HVAC systems were spreading it. Some of us don’t need “articles” to recognize the obvious.

        1. Remember the presser that NY “leaders” were shocked that so many people who were staying home caught the bug?

          HVAC systems.

        2. The Northeast was the epicenter in the spring when it was cold and people were indoors with forced air heating systems.

          Then in July there was a surge in warm weather states where people were indoors with forced air cooling systems.

    3. There are lots of things you can’t do in public.

      During a pandemic now not wearing masks is one of them.

      Don’t want to wear a mask? Stay home.

      1. How about we put a bullet in your head instead?

        1. Your moms calling. Your pizza pockets are ready.

          1. My mom died 3 years ago

            1. I hope she never saw the dipshit you turned into.

              1. You should commit suicide. You’re a vile LITERAL nazi.

                1. You first, scaredy bigot.

      2. Virus spread is NOT an externality. If you stay on your property by yourself, you are unaffected.

        If you choose to go to a store that doesn’t require masks, you CONSENT to the risks.

        Let property owners decide. Get the gov’t out of it.

        1. Public places are external available to everyone.

          You have no right to spread death around public places.

    4. There is a case for it. Your rights stop at your face. You don’t have the right to spread a deadly pathogen willy nilly wherever you want into my face. I can’t believe some libertarians think wearing masks is a good thing to do especially when that same virus is killing our economy and our out of control government is spending like a mofo to try and prop it up.

      1. Virus spread is NOT an externality. If you stay on your property by yourself, you are unaffected.

        If you choose to go to a store that doesn’t require masks, you CONSENT to the risks.

        Let property owners decide. Get the gov’t out of it.

        1. If you want to spread death by not wearing a mask, you can stay on your own property.

      2. The virus isn’t killing the economy. Politicians are.

        Unless you can show I am actually spreading a deadly pathogen, you need to STFU and mind your own business.

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    6. Well, they can make a vigorous Libertarian case for violent Marxist assholes rioting for months on end, they can make a Libertarian case for anything

    7. I wonder if they’ll be handing out tickets next time there’s a BLM/Antifa “peaceful” protest…not holding my mask-covered breath.

    8. You’re wrong here, John. Wearing a mask in public has been proven to slow down the spread of the Covid-19 virus, and the people who’re deliberately and knowingly violating the rules of wearing masks in public, with both their noses and mouths covered, as well as social distancing (of six feet or more from other people), are not only putting others at risk for Covid-19 infection, but themselves, as well.

      1. That’s why California stopped their spread with masks!

      2. How are mandatory masks working in California?

        LA has mandatory masks since March, yet today they have record high cases.

    9. Average IQ of people who don’t wear masks, and are against them, is likely around 87. But 60 million people in the USA have an IQ of 85 or below…plenty of morons out there. And you know who you are…deep down, at least.

      1. Average IQ of people who don’t wear masks, and are against them, is likely around 87.

        And this from the brownshirt who thinks that “water vapor” spreads COVID.

      2. Strange that I have a STEM degree. How did I do that with an IQ of 85?

        Why should my rights be violated to improve your safety? If you die from the virus due to a pre-existing condition, that’s a problem on your end. You don’t have a positive right that others wear masks to benefit your safety.

        Let property owners decide. We can have stores with & without mask requirements. Let the free market decide which is better.

    10. The article states that a “libertarian” can case be made for mask mandates since coughing contagion on someone violates the NAP.

      Okay, so you’re talking pre-crimes since you’re stopping people ahead of time and furthermore, who the devil runs around coughing on people?

      No, there’s no libertarian case.

      1. More fundamentally: Virus spread is NOT an externality. If you stay on your property by yourself, you are unaffected.

        If you choose to go to a store that doesn’t require masks, you CONSENT to the risks.

        Let property owners decide. Get the gov’t out of it.

    11. Every open mouth and nose is a loaded [1] gun waving in other peoples faces. This will, quite reasonably, cause them to be afraid for their lives. Therefore under the local stand your ground laws (if any) they may shoot the unmasked dead on the spot in self defense.
      And that would be a good thing.

      [1] Admittedly most are loaded with blanks, but we can’t tell which are which.

      1. Not wearing a mask isn’t aggression, as virus spread is NOT an externality. If you stay on your property by yourself, you are unaffected.

        If you choose to go to a store that doesn’t require masks, you CONSENT to the risks.

        Let property owners decide. Get the gov’t out of it.

      2. Virus spread is NOT an externality. If you stay on your property by yourself, you are unaffected.

        If you choose to go to a store that doesn’t require masks, you CONSENT to the risks.

        Let property owners decide. Get the gov’t out of it.

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    13. I welcome the escalation of the current civil war. It’s long past time to settle accounts.

      1. You would.

        Yet you’re too stupid to realize that your side will suffer more casualties from covid19.

        Pretty stupid strategy eh? Dipshit.

        1. Why not let property owners decide whether masks are required?

          If you CHOOSE to go to a store that doesn’t require masks, you CONSENT to the risk.

          If you are afraid, you can only go to stores that require masks. Let the free market decide which is better.

          1. Sure on your own private property You don’t need to wear a mask. Just make sure the warnings are clearly visible to all entering. Your UPS packages will be left at the curb.

            In public places, you need to wear one.

        2. Covid 19? What a weaksauce thing to be afraid of that would be.

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    15. Anyone who pays their $100 slave mask fine is a sucker. We all knew that the petty weasels in state and local governments would turn the china flu outbreak into a cash cow.

  2. “One could make a libertarian case for government mask mandates during a pandemic”

    One could, but they would be wrong.

    1. Because externalities are a myth? Huh? Wat?

      1. No. They just don’t exist if I am healthy. You know what is also not a myth? Due process. You can’t take away my rights and treat me like I am sick without some showing I actually am.

        Go fuck yourself.

        1. If you’re asymptomatic you can still spread the disease. That’s the point of the masks. So I can see a case for ordering masks when social distancing isn’t possible.

          Though it makes absolutely no sense to wear a mask when nobody is around. Anyone who orders and/or enforces such a mandate is a total dick.

          1. But if you have no idea that you are infected, then why should you be wearing a mask?

            Viruses and other pathogens have gone through populations as long as there have been populations. It is a fact of nature. Should roof you too, because you might get rained on? Am I obligated to sterilize a mountain stream just because it happens to run through my property before getting to yours?

            1. I said I can see a case for requiring masks. I didn’t say I agreed with it.

              1. There is no constitutipnal power to ban masks or require Americans to wear masks.

                1. Indeed.

          2. Then test me. The burden is on the government not me. What if I am guilty of robbery and carrying stolen property? Does that give the government the right to search my car without probable cause? No. So the possibility that I might have this doesn’t give the government the right to automatically treat me as if I do.

            1. As I said to Overt, I’m not trying to justify the bans. Just that I can see the point of view.

              Governments are imposing these mandates because they can. They’re enforcing them because they can. And they will keep these “emergency” measures because they can.

              Say goodbye to freedom. It died this year.

          3. No, you fucking can’t spread it if you’re asymptomatic. That’s what asymptomatic means: that you don’t have enough virus on board to make you sick and thereby transmit it. In any case, you’re talking about a virus that 99.98% of people survive. If you’re afraid of that, then put a fucking face diaper on. You have no right to demand that anyone else wear one for your sake.

            1. Both wrong and right. Yes you shed less of the virus when you don’t have symptoms, but less is not none.

              Yes the mortality rate ain’t what they thought when they decided to destroy the economy.

              I’m not afraid, dipshit, nor am I demanding anything from anyone.

              Dolt.

            2. It’s certainly possible to be asymptomatic and spread a disease. Remember Typhoid Mary – thousands of people recovered from the disease with no germs left, but _one_ person was different somehow, and she infected at least 53 others. It may or may not be possible for that to happen with COVID-19, but the way it has evaded all attempts at quarantine fits well with asymptomatic spreaders.

              You can argue that masks don’t do much to slow the spread. You can argue that it’s not dangerous enough for merely slowing the spread to be worth all the disruption. But with the data we have so far, you can’t reasonably argue that the next person you walk by cannot be carrying and spreading the disease without even suspecting he is infected.

            3. You’re wrong, DEdwards The fact is that a person CAN be infected with the Covid-19 virus, still be asymptomatic, and still spread the disease. Try to understand that the requirements for wearing a mask in public, and social distancing 6ft or more from other people have been implemented for a reason: To at least slow down and attempt to control the spread of the Covid 19 virus. Nobody, including you, has the right to put others at risk, especially during the middle of a pandemic.

          4. “”Though it makes absolutely no sense to wear a mask when nobody is around. “”

            The mask Nazis disagree.

          5. >>asymptomatic you can still spread the disease

            every cold & flu ever. run!

          6. You cowards denying life and disease are annoying as fuck.

          7. Now do young black males.

          8. It has never been proven that it is possible to spread the disease without having symptoms. It has also never been shown that masks make any difference, except in increasing the risk to the one wearing it.

      2. “Because externalities are a myth? Huh? Wat?”

        Acts of nature are not externalities. They are…acts of nature. Are hurricanes externalities? Tornados? Packs of wolves?

        Requiring someone to take precautions to limit your exposure to an act of nature is not limiting an externality.

      3. Because externalities are a myth? Huh? Wat?

        I don’t think you know what externalities are and much more exactingly, how to differentiate wholly unsubstanitated ‘externalities’ from ‘things I/we find to be icky’ in the collective consciousness.

      4. Because externalities are a myth? Huh? Wat?

        Yes, externalities are a myth. Glad we agree on that point.

      5. Virus spread is NOT an externality. If you stay on your property by yourself, you are unaffected.

        If you choose to go to a store that doesn’t require masks, you CONSENT to the risks.

        Let property owners decide. Get the gov’t out of it.

    2. 20 Years ago I was marveling at how we went from Reagan arguing to abolish the Department of Education, to Bush II proposing No Child Left Behind as the “Conservative” solution to education.

      A few months later, some assholes crashed planes into buildings, and the Libertarian response was broadly, “Woah, now, people- let’s not let this crisis lead us to blindly grant the government powers that can be used against us.”

      And here we are 20 years later, and even REASON, the vanguard of libertarian opinion has lost its fucking spine.

      Then: “Yes there may be terrorists living and plotting among us, but that doesn’t require us all to give up our privacy and other liberties”

      Today: “There is a scary virus among us, so the argument could be made that the government has the right to wrap us in masks and (soon enough) stick needles in our arms.”

      We are all frogs sitting in the pot, and the water keeps getting hotter.

      1. >>(soon enough) stick needles in our arms

        the tipping point or I’m out.

    3. No they would be correct.

  3. “One could make a libertarian case for government mask mandates during a pandemic, on the grounds that no one has an inherent right to cough deadly pathogens on another person.”

    No, you can’t. Pathogens exist all the time. Unless you want 24/7/365 mandates, you don’t actually believe this BS.

    1. Libertarianism: You have a right to swing your fist right up until the point you hit my nose.

      Reason-style Authoritarianism: In order to be free to swing your fist, you first have to don a mask appropriately, whether you’re actually carrying any pathogens, deadly or otherwise, or not. Then, if in the process of swinging your fists, your mandatory mask comes loose, you’ll be punished whether you actually harmed anyone or even *could* harm anyone, or not.

  4. Just an FYI, because I haven’t seen a Reason article on this:

    “Murder of black Trump super-supporter Bernell Trammell leads to calls for federal probe”

    “The murder of a 60-year-old black supporter of President Donald Trump in Milwaukee last week just hours after he gave an interview to local media has led to calls for a federal investigation from Wisconsin lawmakers.

    Bernell Trammell was shot and killed at the same location where he was interviewed, explaining why he supports the president, leading local police to suspect the murder may have been politically motivated.”

    https://www.bizpacreview.com/2020/07/27/murder-of-black-trump-super-supporter-bernell-trammell-leads-to-calls-for-federal-probe-952164

    1. Can you imagine if this event was somehow flipped? A black vocal Biden supporter getting shot to death in the middle of white Trumpistan ?

      The new york times would be jacking so hard to that.

      Instead, crickets.

    2. But trust us, people are being completely honest when speaking to the pollsters, and the polls are definitely accurate.

    3. That story is impossible. There are no black Republicans.

      1. Come on, the Times is busy writing fashion tips for permanent masking and for protestor-wear (not making this up). Plus their daily quota of Trump bashing.

      2. Of course they are Black Republicans. However, they are all the victim of evil white Republican mind control rays!

    4. Stay on topic please.

  5. WHY HASN’T THE NRA SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THIS?!?!

    1. They’re too busy running guns to Chicago via their clandestine network of traffickers from other states. Mayor Lightfoot talked about this. Haven’t you been paying attention?

    2. “We contacted the NRA and they declined to respond, but their silence speaks volumes.”

      1. but their silence silencer speaks volumes

        FTFY

      2. You did it better. 😀

      3. It doesn’t take volumes to say “We’re a gun rights organization. That has nothing to do with gun rights. We have no official position on it.”

  6. “The Herald also identified one Wawa convenience store where eight people were cited over two days for not wearing masks, suggesting that police are indeed setting up “mask traps.””

    Eight citations in 2 hours might be a “mask trap”. Eight citations in 2 days is more likely a convenience store that a group of cops tend to stop at. Good doughnuts maybe?

    1. Wawa donuts are adequate, but they’re no Krispy Kreme.

      1. Well, of course not, the very idea is …. sacrilegious.

  7. Well, this should make Liberals happy, since they’ve been so concerned about COVID in Florida.

    1. Liberals like and respect civil rights. And dislike stupid, authoritarian because-daddy-said-so order-for-order’s sake nonsense.

      No, this is a classic conservative kink. Although it is funny to see ’em realize ACAB.

      1. That’s a pretty ignorant comment. He was clearly talking about Left leaning Americans. Furthermore, your comment about it being classic conservative kink”, just conflates conservative with authoritarian. There are a great many Left leaning authoritarians. To ignore all that is the height of ignorance.

      2. There are no more liberals the prog left racist fascists ate them. And reason mag has taken up the left wing cause because they have a beef with the cops.

      3. Liberals like and respect civil rights.

        The term “liberals” in the US refers to progressive, a political ideology that is related to fascism roughly in the same way democratic socialism is related to communism: as a precursor.

  8. Well, at least cities have found one way to supplement the revenue they are losing due to decreased sales tax revenues.

  9. no one has an inherent right to cough deadly pathogens on another person

    True but it’s easy enough to talk to people and convince them to wear a mask. Forcing people doesn’t work because it will backfire in other ways by making them angry, careless and rebellious and thereby spread contagion. (Which is not necessarily a bad thing.)

    A few weeks ago, an old guy came into the store and took off his mask and starting railing about masks so I went up to him and pointed to my mask and said, “I’m wearing this for you.” After a little back and forth he grumbled and put on his mask and walked away. That’s how to do it. It’s called ‘being a libertarian’. Anyone remember that?

    1. I went up to him

      As in, within 6 ft.? You murderer?

      I shook hands with a number of people last week. No masks. I know it may surprise you to learn that, so far, no one has died because of it.

      1. Thanks for making my point.

        Also you don’t have to wear a mask as long as you agree to cede your hospital bed if they are in short supply. You’re probably better off at home rolling over onto your stomach anyway. Once you’re on the vent, the chances of death and long term disability increase.

        1. “Also you don’t have to wear a mask as long as you agree to cede your hospital bed if they are in short supply.”

          No. How about you agree to give up your hospital bed because you are already limiting risk so much? Oh you aren’t confident in the effectiveness of masks?

          1. The whole point of limiting risk is so that you can get a hospital bed. Everyone seems to have forgotten the strategy here. It’s not to prevent every infection but just to flatten the curve so hospitals can provide adequate service.

            1. It’s not to prevent every infection but just to flatten the curve so hospitals can provide adequate service.

              The curve was as real as a climate curve. Giving undue faith and credit, it relied on assumptions that were suspected to be exaggerated and are now known to be categorically wrong.

              Shove your mask up your ass.

            2. We dont close beaches. We dont ban sugar. We dont have government mandated diets. We drive over 25 mph.

              Your cries to limit risk are hollow.

        2. Also you don’t have to wear a mask as long as you agree to cede your hospital bed if they are in short supply.

          If you walk up to me and say “I’m wearing this mask for you.” and I tell you to take it off, do you?

        3. Good point about ceding your hospital bed if there is short supply. If you have health issues due to a bad diet then you should also cede your hospital bed. If you don’t wear a seat belt and get into a bad car accident you should also cede your hospital bed. If you have lung cancer due to years of smoking you should also cede your hospital bed.

          Let only the responsible have first rights to hospital beds.

          1. Your list notably omits needle drug users, those infected with HIV, and even things like accidental pregnancies.

    2. Yeah. The purpose of the masks isn’t to keep you from getting sick. The purpose is to keep you from getting others sick. I see it as kind of a courtesy.

      1. How do you even remember to breathe in and out when you’re that retarded? Keep your alleged solicitude to yourself. The purpose of the face diapers is to condition people to submit to arbitrary, pointless, irrational orders. Telling retards that they’re doing it for the sake of others, that their obedience is a virtue and not spinelessness, is obviously a winning tactic.

        1. What’s even more stupid is that face coverings have become a political issue.

          If you wear a mask the assumption is that you’re a sniveling leftists who is afraid of house flies.

          If you refuse then you’re a big, bad, tough Trump voter who spits on leftists.

          There is no in between.

          And I’m the stupid one?

          1. And I’m the stupid one?

            Masks may come and go but your stupidity appears to be permanent.

            1. Spoken like a true twelve year old.

      2. Real saviors wash people’s feet.

      3. For courtesy purposes, please dont drive over 25 mph.

        1. I promise not to go over 250 mph.

      4. How could I get others sick when I do not have any pathogen to give them?

    3. you should be under your bed if you’re still this afraid.

      1. I’m not afraid. I’ve said from the beginning that we should achieve herd immunity as we protect our elderly & obese. We just need to flatten the curve. If we agree on that then why are you arguing with me? It only shows you’re the coward (or hypocrite). Fight the doom dealers and panic pushers on Twitter and The Hill. You’re on friendly territory here and are preaching to the choir.

        1. >>We just need to flatten the curve

          you’d have to believe government figures to believe a curve requires flattening.

          >>we should achieve herd immunity

          won’t happen if everyone covers their faces and doesn’t interact. chicken pox parties were not on zoom.

          1. Except from the beginning I’m arguing against mask mandates. It makes no sense why you’re arguing with me. Are you just lonely?

            1. >>it’s easy enough to talk to people and convince them to wear a mask

              this was your first sentence and you speak of flattening curves. and i’m not arguing with you

              >>“I’m wearing this for you.”

              if you said this like an asshole and flipped him off, I would cheer you. the story reads different.

    4. “I’m wearing this for you.” Congratulations on finding a way to make your pants-pissing cowardice into a virtue. Fuck you and fuck your face diaper. Diapers don’t work against viruses, you scientifically illiterate moral degenerate.

      1. No, but they work on the droplets of saliva that carry the virus.

        But you can call me names if it makes you feel better.

        Fucking politics has become a religion. If you support Trump then you just know that masks are stupid and for stupid people, and that makes you awesome.

        Fucking retarded.

        1. They have become a religion on the left as well. People are regularly making arguments that masks are a replacement for social distancing, which is a dangerous, dangerous lie.

          I watched last week on my local Next Door feed when someone called out another person with Covid, claiming that she had obviously not worn a mask.

          The left has literally turned COVID into a scarlet letter- if you contract it you are obviously unclean- a sinner who did not obey the strictures handed down on high.

          I wear a mask when I go into stores, or end up in situations where distancing is difficult. But this lunacy has to stop on both sides, because my kids are going back to school in fall, and these fuckers are going to terrorize 8 year olds into thinking that if grandpa dies from COVID, it was because she couldn’t wear a mask correctly. That is fucking bullshit.

          1. I was thinking about this today. One way to find out how the virus spreads is by asking people who have COVID how they think they got it. Everyone will probably say they don’t now and that they’ve been wearing masks and staying away from others. Anything else and they will come across as irresponsible and the likes of Tony and Dajjal will turn them into the authorities (not wearing a mask in my state can result in a fine or jail time).

            1. Except I’ve supported herd immunity and argued against mask mandates from the beginning. You are just angry because apparently I’m the only non-anarchist libertarian left on this site.

        2. Good ole sanctimonyic.

        3. With every breath you exhale millions of tiny vapor particles too small to be stopped by a cloth mask, each of which can carry a viral load large enough to infect someone. The amount of viral spreading the mask stops is effectively zero.

        4. Droplets of saliva evaporate. Virions do not. Once the droplet is gone, the virions are free to hitch a ride on the next puff of air through the mask, right through the comparatively massive pores, and into the air as an aerosol.

          Stopping droplets doesn’t end the story. It just ends the study that was cooked up to “prove” a predetermined conclusion.

    5. “I’m wearing this for you.”

      Fuck you.

    6. “…so I went up to him and pointed to my mask and said, “I’m wearing this for you.”…”

      Sorry he didn’t knee you in the balls, you self-righteous piece of shit.

    7. You’re not a libertarian. You’re a progressive. It’s time to rid the country of your kind.

    8. Interestingly 9 out if 10 people I see not wearing masks are elderly and/or obese, two of the groups with the highest mortality. If I find breathing with a mask difficult, I can only imagine how hard it is for them. As sad as it is that so many elderly in nursing homes have died, most nursing homes are just a pit stop on the way to the funeral home. I told my kid to do me the favor and smother me or hold my meds if I become such a burden a nursing home is the only option. Maybe the elderly and obese know they aren’t going to live forever. I wish they’d spread the word since so many think not dying from COVID is the key to eternal life.

  10. I really doubt these mask mandates will go away. So get used to perpetual acne and mask-tan, folks. This is the new normal.

  11. Ultimately, every law is enforced at the point of a gun. Are you willing to shoot someone for not wearing a mask? Then you shouldn’t make it mandatory.

    1. Remember when libertarians knew this?

      1. Pepperidge Farms remembers.

  12. Are the citations properly sanitized before being laid on the ground and backed away from before the offender can enter the 6′ zone to retrieve it?

    1. Laid on the ground? Littering. I’m going to have to fine you for that, too.

      1. It is a bit amusing how all the fast food napkins and bags that used to line the gutters converted to masks overnight.

        I can’t wait until some 9 yr. old calculates that 90 billion masks are dumped into the ocean every year.

        1. No shit. The Walmart parking lot is taking on a blue hue from all the disposable masks on the ground.

          1. And polypropylene is not biodegradable either.

  13. This should be implemented very before, as it is very serious matter

  14. “Mask mandates have proliferated across the United States as a way of combating the spread of COVID-19.” LOL. Are you on crack? They’re not a way to combat anything except independence and self-ownership. Face diapers are to viruses what chain link is to mosquitoes. The point of the exercise is to condition people to submit to the arbitrary and the irrational. That’s it. Face diapers now, camps later.

    1. Just get rid of the progressives. Debate and elections won’t get it done. It’s us or them. I prefer us.

      There can be no freedom while progressives exist in this country on significant numbers.

  15. >>One could make a libertarian case for government mask mandates during a pandemic

    one would be branded a maroon, but knock one’s self out.

  16. Some people: Defund the police!
    Also the same people: Arrest people for not wearing masks!

  17. I dislike the mask mandates but they are clearly constitutional.

    However, arbitrary and capricious mask mandates that exceed the CDC guidelines and that are disconnected from everything we know about the science of disease transmission are on a lot shakier ground. The CDC (and everyone else with two working brain cells) recommends wearing a mask when in public and social distancing measures are hard to maintain. In other words, if you’re in the parking lot with nobody near you, that’s public but even the CDC won’t require a mask.

    1. >>clearly constitutional

      clearly. lol.

    2. Are you on drugs? How in the world is this remotely LEGAL period?

      Masks is liberty.

    3. Lies. Mask requirements and mask bans are unconstitutional. There is zero constitutional authority for either.

      Pieces of shit lie rossami never cite anything because no constitutional supports their lunatic ravings.

      This dipshit thinks states have plenary powers.

  18. A few reminders:
    1. The mandates are actually for “cloth face coverings” (CDC’s definition) not masks because they “cloth face coverings” do not stop any virus transmission. It is CLAIMED that they stop “larger droplets” that MAY also contain virus particles. Of course, so does a handkerchief; but then you put the handkerchief and all those nasty pathogens back in your pocket where they are less likely to get breathed past the “cloth face covering” in the next few hours.
    2. If you ask about the alleged exemptions to the order, like a “cloth face covering” will drop your oxygen levels, you get this:
    As a point of clarification, the Mayor’s Executive Order requiring Face Coverings is not an enforceable mandate. As such, there are not procedural requirements in place for those individuals who cannot tolerate a face covering for medical, sensory or any other condition which makes it difficult from them to utilize a face covering. (so am I exempt or not? Will the county protect me from the rioters when I show up at the grocery store without a “cloth face covering”? Who is John Galt?)
    3. Note that in the sexist, racist, slave owning, homophobic history of this country, this is the ONLY virus to let the fascists take over the economy. THE. ONLY. ONE. Now, someone please tell me what biological difference there is with this, and only this, virus. Because the mighty, infallible, ever changing CDC says this about the “real”flu and masks: “Unvaccinated Asymptomatic Persons, Including Those at High Risk for Influenza Complications:
    No recommendation can be made at this time for mask use in the community by asymptomatic persons, including those at high risk for complications, to prevent exposure to influenza viruses.”

  19. The circle of bad laws continues. And in many cases, these aren’t even actual LAWS, just edicts from one entity or another that isn’t the legislature.

    All because “It might be better than nothing.” (Evidence shows not so much.)

  20. One, this is a tax.

    Two, it has nothing to do with coronavirus.

    Three, a good way to get people to wake the heck up already about the bull shit about masks.

  21. It’s been less than two weeks since Miami-Dade County announced it would be fining people for not wearing masks in public.

    I can’t find anything that says this is anything but an executive order by the mayor. People need to clog up the courts with these cases. Plead not guilty and the reason is that there is no law that is being enforced.

    1. A bad law should collapse under its own weight. Imagine a decree.

      Beccaria must be spinning in his grave.

  22. Who’s keeping score? What are we at?

    Sweden 12
    USA/Canada: O.

    Something like that?

    What a mess.

    1. Sweden 12
      USA/Canada: O.

      Is liberty a zero sum game?

      Sweden: +6
      US/Canada: -6

  23. Citizens need to resist the cops who are trying to enforce this unconstitutional order. Use all necessary force.

  24. I honestly can’t believe cops, in any appreciable numbers at least, are going out of their way to enforce something like this. I had commented last week that mask laws were stupid and pointless because, among other things, good luck getting cops to enforce something like that AND that even if they did enforce a requirement that you have a covering, no one would ever be able to enforce proper usage. I guess I stand corrected- while I still think that statement is broadly true, and many departments have indeed said they will not be enforcing these edicts, apparently there are some who will not only enforce them, but do so with gusto and get you on every technicality they can.

    So, with that said… what in the HELL is wrong with these cops? After EVERYTHING that has gone on in the past couple months, you are willing to put your ass on the line and have a negative interaction with the public over THIS? I’m not up to speed on the political situation in Miami, but I can only assume that it is similar to any other sizable city in the nation and that the cops have been getting treated like dirt by politicians and public alike. So why on earth would the cops so zealously enforce a new and polarizing order like this? Do they not realize that the “fuck masks” crowd and the “back the blue” crowd have a significant overlap? Cops are going to lose any support and credibility they have left with ANY segment of the population if they keep this shit up.

    1. Just turning tricks for the treasury.

  25. a customer at a barber shop who lowered his mask
    What do they do, shave thru your mask?

    I would actually drink right thru the mask to technically comply in the cop’s face while making the mask useless.

  26. The insatiable appetite of municipal government must be fed right, and money is what it feeds on.

  27. Are the mask mandates passed by an elected legislative body, or is the executive branch now in the business of making laws?

    1. The mask “ordances” are by and large executive orders.
      The executive branch has been doing that for centuries

    2. Even if the state legislatures or congress passed mask laws pro or against, theose laws are unconstitutional.

      There is zero constitutional authority to force people to wear masks or prevent people from wearing any kind of masks.

  28. Masks don’t keep you from getting COVID, the keep you from spreading COVID. So if you don’t have it, you should not be forced to wear a mask. Just like quarantining a healthy person does nothing to improve public health. In both cases you are essentially ‘guilty’ of having COVID until you can prove you are innocent. This holds true for any disease. If I accuse you of having Ebola, should you have to quarantine until you prove you’re healthy? No.

    1. Makes don’t keep anyone from spreading anything. Since you don’t understand science is will explain it to you.

      Bacteria and viral matter are too small to be stopped by a cloth mask. Therefore, they are largely ineffective. Also, most masks are ill fitting at best and require regular readjustment. So this leads to people touching their faces with great frequency while in public. If any bacteria or viruses are on the person’s hands when they touch their mask. those particles will slip right through the fabric.

      Masks don’t work. Period. Now that I’ve educated, feel free to thank me.

      1. Jeff was actually making a good point aside from the bit where he should have said “they are supposed to stop you from spreading COVID.” We know they don’t work, just as Fauci, the CDC, WHO, and the surgeon general know. That’s why they let it slip early on that masks don’t work, before they got their marching orders and official “supported by science” list of political talking points.

  29. Good thing there’s nothing better to do…you know like investigate or stop murders, rapes, lootings, stealing…that sort of thing.

  30. There are lots of things you can’t do in public.

    During a pandemic now not wearing masks is one of them.

    Don’t want to wear a mask? Stay home.

    Your breath is a dangerous weapon.

    1. Muzzles (masks) are apparently worn to prevent spreading the virus. However, if the masks work AS YOU CLAIM (they are basically TWO WAY filtration devices) and YOU are wearing one, YOU ARE PROTECTED. Why FORCE me to wear one?

      1. A mask doesn’t completely protect the wearer. Unmasked infected spread the viruses onto all surfaces making self defence almost impossible.

        So fuck off asshole, wear a mask or stay home.

        1. “So fuck off asshole, wear a mask or stay home.”

          Stuff it up your ass so your head has some company, you cowardly piece of shit.

          1. Says the anonymous coward and bigot.

    2. Your idiocy is a dangerous weapon.

      Tell the government to fuck off. Dont wear a mask.

    3. I’m not going to wear a mask, or stay home. Also, the Holocaust really happened.

      1. The virus is happening. Wearing masks saves lives.

        It’s obvious why you post as an anonymous coward here. Your ignorance and narcissism should stick to you like a bad smell.

    4. Don’t be silly. My breath is harmless. I don’t have the virus.

      1. Who said anything about a virus?

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  32. It may be wise for individuals to decide to wear a mask, however it is not wise individuals to allow government to mandate the side spread wearing of masks. Companies have the right to require patrons to wear masks and I would even say that governments can require the wearing of masks in city building. Governments should however only make recommendations and guidelines. Laws implicitly imply that the laws will be enforced using force or at the point of the gun. Not wearing a mask or wearing a mask improperly should not be a crime. The crime is that the city council of Miami passed a law requiring wearing face masks and the police department is funding themselves by issuing tickets. I would like to see the city council and police department we watched like a hawk and recorded on video because at some point they will violate their own rules and really should be served with a citizens arrest.

    1. “Companies have the right to require patrons to wear masks”

      Except for the obvious fact that, if enforced, it violates the Americans with Disabilities Act.
      You know, reasonable accommodation for any of a bazillion conditions that make reducing your ability to breathe problematic. And in particular since we are actually talking about “cloth face coverings”, not real, effective masks.

  33. Hahha. Who wears a mask?

    I have been traveling around the USA for months now and never worn a mask.

    Typical media hype to scare people into giving up their constitutional right to NOT wear a mask. There is zero government authority to force people to wear masks.

    1. Yeah that’s it. A massive mask conspiracy.

      Dipshit.

      1. “Yeah that’s it. A massive mask conspiracy.”

        We knew your were a scumbag bigot, now we see you can’t read.

      2. Rob, you’re the anti Semite Holocaust denier here. You have no room to lecture or scold anyone. Also, read further up what I wrote about why masks are near useless. As you require an education.

        You too may feel free to thank me for straightening you out.

        1. I do deny the holocaust narrative because there is zero physical evidence to support it and mountains of evidence refuting it all illegal to share in every nation where it allegedly occurred.

          You can’t deny that you’re a bigot who refuses to review and consider the evidence.

          Now you wont consider the evidence that masks prevent the spread of the virus.

          You and your ilk are the bigots who have nothing of value to offer civilization.

          1. Like I said, no physical evidence.

            Lots of people will have some extra spare time during this pandemic.

            If anyone wants to share a ressoned opinion they must review the evidence that soundly refutes the false holocaust narrative.

            Read the book,
            Breaking the Spell: The Holocaust, Myth & Reality.

            http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23629458-breaking-the-spell

  34. It is very difficult to cough out your nose.

    The most common route of infection is people with virus on their hands touching their face (eyes or nose). People who are not trained and do not have a known risk factor (health care worker, live in household with sick person, visiting a hospital where patients have the virus) increase their chance of catching the virus by wearing a mask and increasing their hand contact on their face.

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  36. “One could make a libertarian case for government mask mandates during a pandemic, on the grounds that no one has an inherent right to cough deadly pathogens on another person.”

    This is such a strawman argument. If you have PROOF that someone has COVID, then this argument is at least debatable. Absent proof of infection the mask laws are violations of our rights under the Constitution and as human beings.

    The goverment has no right to force you to wear a mask because you MIGHT have COVID just like they can’t jail you because you MIGHT commit a crime.

    1. But they can take all your stuff even though you DID NOT commit a crime.

  37. Wearing masks is a COMPLETE Orwellian fraud. This COVID-1984 non-science gaslighting operation needs to stop now May 2020 – New CDC and WHO Study Proves “No Evidence” Face Masks Prevent Virus
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy_7a8GNN4Q

  38. When you are at war and do not know it, your enemy has an enormous advantage. Know it — we are at war.

    Masks are a symbol of submission, of mindless obedience to arbitrary rules — a pledge of allegiance to the official narrative of the coronavirus “pandemic” promoted by the government and the corporate media: “See, I’m a loyal American! I’m not asking any questions! I’m doing what I’m told!”

    The international corporate elite that runs things behind the scenes has taken an illness whose real effect is no more dangerous than the common flu (and probably far less so) and turned it into an excuse for an enormous expansion of government power and an enormous redistribution of resources — literally, trillions of dollars — from the citizens to the corporate elite.

    The only way to stop police from ticketing or arresting us for not wearing a mask in public (or for “not wearing it properly”) is all-out physical self-defense at the moment of incident. We must defend ourselves again the mask police the same way we would defend our children against a knife-wielding home invader.

    Our goal must be to do whatever we can to discourage the people the government sends to attack us from attacking us or anyone else in the future.

    Of course, those who defend themselves against the mask police will be jailed, injured, or killed — but if enough of us fight back, very few of us will have to.

    The police who do this to us are looking for fun, not risk. They count on us being passive victims and passive bystanders. If we fight back 100% all-out at the moment of incident — if we make attacking us genuinely risky for them — they will stop, because it won’t be fun anymore.

    If police began to be injured and killed because the people they were trying to ticket or arrest for mask violations fought back all-out, they would stop doing it. The official reason would be because they do not want to carry out orders that are immoral or illegal, but the real reason would be that it is no longer fun.

    And there are so many more of us than them.

    1. @We must defend ourselves again the mask police the same way we would defend our children against a knife-wielding home invader.“

      That’s a feeble attempt at propaganda. Are you communist?

  39. Well, when the close the sex trafficking massage parlors where no sex trafficking takes place, where else is the revenue to come from?

  40. “One could make a libertarian case for government mask mandates during a pandemic, on the grounds that no one has an inherent right to cough deadly pathogens on another person.”

    Fuck off slaver.

  41. Caped Crusaders hardest hit.

    “You call that thing a mask? It covers neither you nostrils nor your mouth!. And I can’t find a registration for this car.”

  42. I like to come here to Reason for a more balanced approach to news than much of the MSM and I’ve read some eloquent comments on here from some commenters.

    Regarding this article.
    Unless there is a national response to mask wearing and enforcement one county doing it just contributes to the continued spotty, uncoordinated and erratic response to the COVID 19.

    I’m sure the last thing police want to do now is get on people about masks and fine them and get into possible difficult situations about it.

    I believe masks help and are the minimum people can do right now to try to curb transmission but I think it’s over-reach to fine or ultimately arrest someone because if non-compliance.
    And I understand we have health and safety laws, like seatbelt laws that save lives.

    But I can tell you as a citizen I would greatly resent getting fined for a mask infraction during a time when some places in this nation are tolerating crime, large gatherings and are deciding who can enjoy thwarting the law and who cannot. Believing one walks on the side of angels in their beliefs doesn’t put their needs above anyone else’s.
    And I am very moderate and middle of the road for the most part , but the incongruity and hypocrisy of getting fined for trying to comply by wearing a mask while others are doing much more egregious or dangerous things is wrong.
    The irony is Miami wants to go after the very people who are trying to do the right thing, that’s a pretty easy mark.
    And I’m sure others would feel that way.
    And it’s that issue that would make people less compliant about masks.

    The governments, Federal, State and local need a clear strong message for everyone.
    COVID doesn’t care who you are or what you believe.
    Let’s do it for one and other and move forward.

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  44. It was only a matter of time. If you give the government a lever to extort revenue with, they will pull it. I would say the “law of unintended consequences” or “unforeseen outcomes,” but we’ve been at this long enough to know better.

  45. I have yet to hear a mask analogy that helps me understand under what authority the government can mandate that I wear something over my face in public, outside.

    It’s not quite like seat belts or speeding. I’m not driving a car.
    It’s not quite like smoking. I’m not smoking.
    It’s not quite like wearing a lifejacket. I’m not in the water.

    I just have a face and they want me to keep it covered.
    Why don’t you cover your face and leave mine out of it?

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  47. Miami-Dade Police Department never fails to make the news for despicable, tyrannical behavior. Why wasn’t the burning down of the Miami-Dade Police Department put on the early schedule?????

    If you’re going to go about your life being completely ignorant of the law, then get used to being abused by it. No natural right can be abrogated by any “ordinance” or statute and no part of any of these mandates is “law”. Any armed people of Miami-Dade should invoke stand your ground and put down the rabid dogs violating their oaths of office. I suggest walking around in large, well armed groups, with no masks.

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  49. Masks don’t do a thing to stop the spread of a virus. But they are great for revenue harvesting.

  50. I find it interesting how the liberal left continues to make it less and less attractive to live in big cities.

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  52. The author of this article is neither a libertarian, nor intelligent. From the looks of many of the comments here, that goes for a significant proportion of Reason’s readers as well. There is no libertarian argument to be made for dictating what people wear in public, period. Fake pandemic or no fake pandemic. A truly pathetic bunch you are.

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