Coronavirus

COVID-19 Herd Immunity Is Much Closer Than Antibody Tests Suggest, Say 2 New Studies

If the findings are true, that's really great news.

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The prevalence of immunity to the coronavirus that causes COVID-19 may be much higher than previous research suggests according to an intriguing new study by researchers associated with Karolinska Institute in Sweden. In addition, a new German study by researchers associated with the University Hospital Tübingen in Germany reports that people who have been previously infected with versions of the coronavirus that cause the common cold also have some immunity to the COVID-19 virus. If these reports stand up to further scrutiny, it would be very good news because they suggest that the pandemic could be over sooner and ultimately be less lethal than feared.

First, a few caveats: Both studies are based on small sample sizes and neither have yet been vetted by peer review.

In the Swedish study, researchers not only checked 200 participants for the presence of immunological proteins called antibodies produced in response to COVID-19 infections, but also for T-cells which are another virus-fighting component of the immune system. Detecting and evaluating T-cells is a bit trickier than measuring antibodies.

The Karolinska researchers, according to the accompanying press release, "performed immunological analyses of samples from over 200 people, many of whom had mild or no symptoms of COVID-19." The study tested COVID-19 patients, exposed asymptomatic family members, healthy blood donors who gave blood during 2020, and a 2019 donor control group.

"One interesting observation was that it wasn't just individuals with verified COVID-19 who showed T-cell immunity but also many of their exposed asymptomatic family members," said Karolinska researcher Soo Aleman. "Moreover, roughly 30 per cent of the blood donors who'd given blood in May 2020 had COVID-19-specific T cells, a figure that's much higher than previous antibody tests have shown."

"Our results indicate that roughly twice as many people have developed T-cell immunity compared with those who we can detect antibodies in," noted Karolinska Center for Infectious Medicine researcher Marcus Buggert.

Study co-author Hans-Gustaf Ljunggren told The Telegraph that if the study's findings are replicated, they would apply to any country. London, for instance, might have about 30 percent immunity and New York above 40 percent. If so, some parts of the U.S. are much closer to herd immunity than population-wide antibody testing currently suggests.

Herd immunity is the resistance to the spread of a contagious disease that results if a sufficiently high proportion of a population is immune to the illness. Some people are still susceptible, but they are surrounded by immune individuals who serve as a barrier, preventing the microbes from reaching them. Epidemiologists typically estimate that the COVID-19 threshold for herd immunity is around 60 to 70 percent.

Still the Swedish researchers caution, "It remains to be determined if a robust memory T cell response in the absence of detectable circulating antibodies can protect against [the virus]."

In a second study, German researchers analyzed blood samples of 365 people, of which 180 had had COVID-19 and 185 had not. When they exposed the blood samples to the COVID-19 coronavirus, they found, as expected, that blood from those who had had the illness produced a substantial immune response. More significantly, they also found that 81 percent of the subjects who had never had COVID-19 also produced a T-cell immune reaction, reports The Science Times. If the German study's results prove out, that would suggest that earlier common cold coronavirus infections may provide about eight in 10 people some degree of immune protection from the COVID-19 virus.

The findings in both of these studies are potentially very good news with respect to public health and the course of the COVID-19 pandemic. Here's hoping that future replications will validate them.

NEXT: 3 Things To Know About the 'New NAFTA' That Begins Today

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  1. “If these reports stand up to further scrutiny, it would be very good news because they suggest that the pandemic could be over sooner and ultimately be less lethal than feared.”

    AUGHHH! No!! Must. Keep. Fear. Alive!!!

    1. Oh, don’t worry. They’ve got that angle coveredalready.

      1. Second virus from China already in the news.
        “New Swine Flu Virus In China Has ‘Pandemic Potential,’ Here Are 7 Reasons Why”
        https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2020/06/30/this-new-flu-virus-has-pandemic-potential-here-are-7-reasons-why/#67ff82d71767
        Ready, set, just waiting for Go!

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    3. Ron Bailey doesn’t like hydroxychloroquine and may not want to tell us about this news:

      Hydroxychloroquine lowers COVID-19 death rate, Henry Ford Health study finds

      https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/07/02/michigan-henry-ford-health-study-finds-hydroxychloroquine-lowers-covid-19-death-rate/5365090002/

      1. The study is here:

        Treatment with Hydroxychloroquine, Azithromycin, and Combination in Patients Hospitalized with COVID-19: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971220305348

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  2. this is how Fauci knowing that more people already have it but can use outrageous numbers by claiming 100,000 people a day can become infected as a scare tactic to get people to comply with protecting themselves from something they already have. its like claiming a million people will wake up with sore backs today we better do something about it now. Fauci is either a power hungry bastard or has a financial benifit from a potential vaccine or from mask manufactures.

    1. “Anthony Stephen Fauci is an American physician and immunologist who has served as the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases since 1984.”
      Fauci didn’t get where he is by being a shy wallflower, he has always wanted power, and fools people with his shy “little guy” portrayals.

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  3. Good county-level coronavirus map

    You can tell where Trump’s support is the strongest.

    1. Well the map won’t load for me, apparently their server is crashing.

      But it just strikes me as so sad how mask wearing and simple VOLUNTARY preventive measures became so politicized.

      I can understand resenting being forced to wear a mask.

      But being asked, politely, to voluntarily wear a mask, as a sign of courtesy and decency to other people, is viewed as some sort of demand to submit to some terrible tyranny. Is holding open a door for strangers “submitting to tyranny”? Actually there probably are some feminists out there who would view a man holding open a door for women to be a form of “submission to the oppressive patriarchy” or something. That is the level of insane thinking that we have going on around here.

      1. “But being asked, politely, to voluntarily wear a mask, as a sign of courtesy and decency to other people, is viewed as some sort of demand to submit to some terrible tyranny. Is holding open a door for strangers “submitting to tyranny”?”

        Still pumping this crock of shit, Jeff? It’s NOT the same as those gestures.

        It goes a little beyond that as we’ve strenuously explained to you over several articles.

        I don’t wear it on the grounds it’s RETARDED. The science is basically inconclusive on it as we’ve repeatedly gone into detail with you.

        It’s engaging in pointless action while forming a habit we shouldn’t be getting used to. Sorta like how people are developing OCD. I went to dinner the other day at a friend’s house and she had two Purell’s on the table.

        That’s when your little skeptical brain should begin to spin (provided you hamster isn’t lazy) and wonder about it all.

        Know what else I do Jeff? Because my business has me going into several stores a week, I pretend to squirt my hands with the soap they want me to wash my hands with. If I’d use it every time, I’d have skeleton hands and no microbes left.

        Just like they want mask theater, I go through the motions of pretending to press the nozzle and even rub my hands as if I’m rubbing it in. All that’s missing is me smiling for the cameras – which I will be doing shortly if the stupidity continues.

        Which judging by your posts, may continue and even get worse.

        But my thoughtless, impolite, racist (sure, why not?), libertarian instincts are ready. I may even slam the door on some little old lady’s face or foot.

        /middle fingers all around.

        1. If you refuse to wear a mask inside an establishment that requests it, you are a dick, pure and simple.

          1. See, I don’t care for that. I think the dicks are the ones pretending this sort nonsense works.

            But so be it.

            1. Inconclusive means it doesn’t work? What burden of proof do you need to do the smallest, most insignificant gesture that has the potential to save someone’s life? Seems comically selfish.

              1. That is why you will never be a libertarian. You think people not doing something they are not obligated to do is selfish. When you drop paper on the ground am I selfish if I don’t bend over and pick it up for you?

                Don’t get me wrong. I am the type of person who will pick up another’s litter. But I don’t do it as an obligation, and would never think negatively of someone who passes it by. There are positive, negative and neutral acts in this world. Being neutral is not worthy of shame. In fact the shame is on people like you who demand that people do more than neutral acts.

                1. We probably contribute the least to the tragedy of the commons.

                  These brats probably don’t.

                  The ones who squawk about ‘common courtesy’ probably practice it the least.

                  My neighbour has breast cancer. Her husband left for a fishing trip. I drag her garbage back to her garage.

                  I do not consider masks to be on the same level. I don’t mind people who do, though I think they’re misguided, but spare me this absurdity of making this a virtuous act.

                  Retarded.

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                2. Yes, people not doing the smallest possible act to save another’s life is selfish. Voluntarism is a big part of libertarianism, and a libertopia would require personal responsibility. Like taking responsibility for not potentially spreading your infection during a pandemic.

                  1. Kind of like how libtwats refuse to use birth control or abstinence and abort instead?

              2. It has exactly zero potential to save anyone’s life. That’s kind of the point.

                1. It has great potential. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7191274/

                  The science is in, over many studies. Masks are effective. End of story.

                  1. One. Thank you for the link. Two. Did you actually read the study? Pretty much all studies were medical masks. And, not all studies found that even medical masks were effective. And, of course the next bombshell.

                    “The study suggests cloth masks may increase the risk of infection (MacIntyre et al., 2015), but may not be generalizable to all homemade masks. The material, design and adequacy of washing of cloth masks may have been a factor (Macintyre et al., 2020). There are no other randomised controlled trial of cloth masks published at this time, but if any protection is offered by these it would be less than even a medical mask.”

                2. All this sterilizing bullsh** is only making us weaker (natural immunity relies on being physically in contact with your surroundings, with other people, bacteria, viruses, in short with NATURE. Prescription based medicine doesn’t want that, hence the massive emphasis on keeping us sterile and replacing natural herd immunity with vaccine immunity, which actually destroys natural herd immunity which is passed on from mothers to their babies and adults getting natural boosters from children/grandchildren (if people’s immune systems keep them healthy (again), this would put the mainstream medical establishment out of business – only emergency medicine would survive this new – well not so new, of course – paradigm).

          2. What about refusing to wear a mask in an establishment that has been threatened with $1000 fine/per violation if they don’t post signs that say all person entering the premises must be wearing a mask?

            Does that change the equation on who is being a dick?

            See: City of Austin Executive Order 20200617

            1. In that situation, the person refusing to wear the mask is still a dick.

              1. Why does it not surprise me that you don’t mind when they circle around and surprise you through the back door?

              2. Coming from a stupid cunt who thinks referring to a person with a penis as a man is a form of discrimination that should result in jail time, you can kindly go fuck yourself with a rusty railroad tie you pathetic piece of bootlicking Marxist shit. Fuck you. Die of AIDS.

                1. Hahaha, calling me a Marxist. I am a Mises fan, you dumb fuck.

                  1. Ugh, I just responded to Tulpa.

                    [scrubs vigorously under a running shower]

                  2. “Hahaha, calling me a Marxist. I am a Mises fan, you dumb fuck.”

                    Liar or too stupid to understand?

                  3. Everyone not named Tulpa is a Marxist. It is known.

            2. Each of the city council members or other city government critters that are responsible for such garbage.

          3. Private businesses are free to require whatever ridiculous dictate they wish in order for customers to enter their establishments, so long as those dictates don’t infringe on a civil liberty.

            It’s up for debate whether mask-wearing is an infringement. But what isn’t up for debate is their efficacy. There are dozens of peer reviewed research studies that say they offer little to no protection against viral transmission, and that goes for medical grade as well.

            Since that is the case, I have the right not to submit to what I feel is simply a performative gesture based not on common courtesy (that would be not sneezing or coughing on someone) but on hysteria and control.

            So I do not enter any establishment that forces me to wear a mask. And I won’t patronize them in the future, either.

            1. You summarized my feelings better than I could.

          1. “The study suggests that community mask use by well people COULD be beneficial, particularly for COVID-19, where transmission may be pre-symptomatic. The studies of masks as source control also SUGGEST t a benefit, and may be important during the COVID-19 pandemic in universal community face mask use as well as in health care settings.”

            Could and suggest don’t equal CONCLUSIVE.

            We all know they *could* hence all the theatre. I’m talking an actual conclusive study that justifies all this ‘virtuous’ nonsense.

          2. “It’s pretty conclusive. ”
            You stupid shit, you should read what your link says:
            “…could be beneficial…”
            “…may be important…”
            “…may prevent…”

            1. I took a couple of journalism classes in my day and it’s amazingly distressing how people take those words and equate them to evidence. They don’t realize they’re being herded around by cheap word play.

              When I say people are illiterate, I don’t mean they can’t read.

              I mean they can’t *READ*.

          3. Since you posted the link again, I posted my response again.

            One. Thank you for the link. Two. Did you actually read the study? Pretty much all studies were medical masks. And, not all studies found that even medical masks were effective. And, of course the next bombshell.

            “The study suggests cloth masks may increase the risk of infection (MacIntyre et al., 2015), but may not be generalizable to all homemade masks. The material, design and adequacy of washing of cloth masks may have been a factor (Macintyre et al., 2020). There are no other randomised controlled trial of cloth masks published at this time, but if any protection is offered by these it would be less than even a medical mask.”

        2. See, there’s just a difference between how you and I view libertarianism.

          What most appealed to me about libertarian philosophy when I was learning it, was that it was the only philosophy which regarded the dignity and self-worth of the individual as of paramount importance. So it behooves all of us to treat others the way we would want to be treated ourselves, as individuals worthy of dignity and respect. Since I don’t know in detail what your situation is, I don’t mind making minor voluntary inconveniences to accommodate your unique circumstances. I don’t know if you are in a higher risk category or not. So why take the chance? I am respecting you as a person by taking the trouble to make a minor inconvenience in my life to accommodate you. Every day we are all surrounded by strangers who all have unique circumstances and who all deserve the same level of respect that we demand for ourselves. It is just hypocrisy to demand that we should be treated as sovereign individuals but then treat others like crap.

          That is where I come down on things. It is not “submitting to an agenda”. It is respecting you as a person.

          1. It is not “submitting to an agenda”. It is respecting you as a person.

            Actually cytotoxic, performing utterly ineffective security theater because you are ignorant as to the feelings and preferences of others is not sensitivity to others, it’s you projecting your idiotic neuroses onto them and then pretending you’re altruistic for doing so. Fuck you, and suck my dick you bootlicking little Marxist piece of subhuman shit. Feel free to keep seeing how many feet of government cock you can fit in your colon. We all know you’re a pathetic sniveling little bitch. When others fail to join you, that’s their prerogative, and you can shut your fucking little bitch mouth about it, because that’s what actual liberty means.

          2. “That is where I come down on things. It is not “submitting to an agenda”. It is respecting you as a person.”

            The heart of being a libertarian is the Non-Aggression Principle. The only obligation we have to one another is to not infringe on another’s rights.

            Not wearing a mask does not violate anyone’s rights. Because it is rights neutral. Viruses, bacteria and other contagions are a fact of nature and no one is responsible for protecting you from nature. If you choose to do that, good for you. I might even laud you for it.

            Essentially, your choice to wear a mask is an act of charity. You are making a sacrifice to reduce a tiny risk by an unknown amount to other people. The problem is that you keep trying to shame people who don’t want to partake in the same charity.

            So when you try to get all high and mighty and claim that you are “treating people the way you would want to be treated”, you are actually inviting people to shame you for not engaging in whatever charity they think is more important. Why haven’t you given to my local school, Jeff? If you would just voluntarily chip in some cash, they wouldn’t have to raise taxes on everyone. What is wrong with you?

            1. Know how I shut a friend up forever when he said, ‘We’re in this together’?

              I asked him to lend me money for my business rent.

              No?

              Fuck off then.

            2. The heart of being a libertarian is the Non-Aggression Principle. The only obligation we have to one another is to not infringe on another’s rights.

              But WHY? What is the rationale for adopting the NAP as the guiding principle? I believe, it is as I wrote – out of a fundamental respect for every individual’s dignity and self-worth.

              Essentially, your choice to wear a mask is an act of charity.

              Sure, to an extent. I also think it is more in keeping with the spirit of the NAP as I laid out above.

              You are making a sacrifice to reduce a tiny risk by an unknown amount to other people. The problem is that you keep trying to shame people who don’t want to partake in the same charity.

              If you view polite requests as “shaming” then that’s on you, not me.

              Why haven’t you given to my local school, Jeff? If you would just voluntarily chip in some cash, they wouldn’t have to raise taxes on everyone. What is wrong with you?

              If you can persuade me that donating money to your school is a better use of my money than what I’m currently spending it on, then sure, I’ll do it. But you’ll have to make a pretty persuasive case.

          3. No, it’s not. It’s actually DISRESPECTING the individual, by assuming their body is weaponized with a virus that could sicken or kill someone else—thus justifying draconian dictates and force. It presumes guilt instead of innocence and is a violation of due process guaranteed us by the 14th amendment.

            1. Strangers with whom you come in contact don’t know if you are infected or not. YOU may not even know if you are infected or not. At a minimum it creates a small amount of peace of mind that the mask wearer has a lower chance of spreading any infection to others.

              1. “At a minimum it creates a small amount of peace of mind that the mask wearer has a lower chance of spreading any infection to others.”

                Here’s a chance for even more peace of mind: Scared? Stay home.
                Your health is YOUR responsibility; quit trying to hand it to others.

              2. Then. Stay. Home.

                Why did Chemjeff cross the road?

                Because he was scared of the coronavirus. But then he realized the coronavirus was talking to him from the trees so he ran back to the other side and then the coronavirus was giggling from the grass. And then he just put on a mask and crossed again and never got his peace of mind because the coronavirus followed him home and raped him to death.

                1. Look I get it, you think that people are a bunch of pussies for getting worked up over “the flu”. I agree that COVID-19 is not as bad as was originally projected. But there are some people out there who have legitimate reasons to be anxious about the virus. I’m not just talking about myself. I’m talking about people who have say lung problems or immune system problems or are just generally not in great health. It is good advice to tell them to stay home but not everyone is in a position to do that 100% of the time. They have to go to the store to buy milk just like everyone else. So you can either shame them for not being the John Wayne stereotype you think they ought to be, or you can meet them where they are and, with a bit of humility, attempt to understand their situation and relate to it as best as you can. You can either call them cowards and pussies or you can make a tiny inconvenience on yourself to give them a small comfort to their state of mind. The choice is yours.

                  1. That’s not what we’re saying at all. We are saying that life is risk, and we are all responsible for deciding how we want to mitigate that risk—if at all.

                    You know who I see running around NOT wearing masks? The elderly. The obese. People in wheelchairs. They have obviously chosen to be out and about AND not wear a mask. That’s their right. You are awfully full of it if you think you can speak for every so-called “vulnerable” person out there.

                    WE should understand their situation? How about you not presuppose it, okay?

                    But, hey we get it. You caaaaaaare way more than we do, and are just thinking of others.

                    But look down through history. The welfare of humanity is always, ALWAYS the alibi of tyrants.

          4. “See, there’s just a difference between how you and I view libertarianism.”

            Yes, your view is simple: ‘Do as I say or we’ll bring in the guns’.

            1. In your stereotypical little mind, sure, whatever man.

              1. Called on your bullshit again I see.

          5. “So it behooves all of us to treat others the way we would want to be treated ourselves, as individuals worthy of dignity and respect.”

            I would NEVER ask or expect anyone to wear a mask on my behalf. What kind of a jackass would I have to be to impose my concerns on someone else?

            1. I’d anyone is that frighted Ed to be out in public, they should just stay home.

        3. “That’s when your little skeptical brain should begin to spin (provided you hamster isn’t lazy) and wonder about it all.”

          Considering there have been studies going back decades on general mask use efficacy in viral outbreaks, my skeptical brain started spinning back when the CDC was still explicitly telling us not to wear masks.

          See, you are engaging in basic conspiracy-theory psychology. You feel superior by “questioning” (read: reflexively denying) the popular opinion despite whatever new evidence is produced. It makes you feel smart. It’s an easy mistake to make, because you are correct that the sudden advocacy of masks is a reversal by people who don’t really know what they are talking about and are repeating what they are told to. But really in this case you’re just regurgitating the line you’ve been fed for years (that masks are just a crazy thing Asians do and don’t work) rather than the new line we’re being fed now.

          1. Considering there have been studies going back decades on general mask use efficacy in viral outbreaks, my skeptical brain started spinning back when the CDC was still explicitly telling us not to wear masks.

            It’s interesting that your skeptical brain had that reaction since the evidence from the studies you mention is, at best, inconclusive, and just as often as not shows that masks are not effective at preventing transmission of viruses. Turns out that droplets transferred by sneezing into one another’s mouths is not actually a realistic model of disease transmission, and that most people acquire viruses through interacting with contaminated surfaces and then touching their face. You know what makes people touch their face a lot more than they normally would? Having to fiddle with a mask attached to their face 16 hours a day.

            1. No shit. I actually wonder if this continual fiddling with our masks isn’t partly responsible for this current “spike” in infection.

              Touch a surface, pick up the virus, touch mask, inhale virus.

              Until the face diaper dictates, we were all being pretty careful not to touch our faces and to wash our hands dozens of times a day. But the mask has given us a false sense of security.

              1. They aren’t worth a shot to begin with. But people are stupid.

              2. The spike is almost completely a result of increasing testing, from <1k a day, to better than a milli9n a week. Critically, and illustratively, hospitalizations and fatalities continue to decline.

          2. It’s the same line the CDC still feeds us with non-Corona viruses, like the flu. Also the same line that the WHO feeds us.

            Either the CDC was lying before or they are lying now. The explanation from the admitted liar himself was that they told us they were not effective before to save them for medical workers. Now they tell us to grab a bandanna or a T shirt and wear it over your face. Was there some shortage of T-shirts I didn’t hear about back then, or perhaps me cutting up a T-shirt would cause a N95 mask in a hospital supply room to vanish into the ether?

            It doesn’t make much sense to suggest what Fauci did. If he knew that masks were effective by non-medical people back then, what sense would it make to say that they are not effective, thereby sabotaging any future efforts to get people to comply once the shortage ends? Why not suggest improvised masks then just as they are now?

            It really does not seem plausible that Fauci would be that dumb.

            On the other hand, if we consider the possibility that he’s lying now, it all makes sense. It explains why the current CDC guidance for the flu matches what they said previously about COVID. It explains why the WHO’s advice matches what the CDC used to say. It doesn’t require someone to explain how cutting up old T-shirts contributes to the shortage of medical masks in hospitals, or why someone would say something like “masks don’t work” when he knows they do, and therefore that someday they will want to suggest them to people.

            If the goal was to preserve masks for the medical people, they could have said only that (they did say that then, but they didn’t stop there) and told people to use improvised coverings at that point, but that’s not what they did. They flat-out told us they are not effective and not recommended unless you are sick or caring for someone sick, and that makes plenty of sense.

            Watch anyone wearing a mask for a few minutes. See how long it takes to touch their face with their obviously unwashed hands. Masks make people touch the stupid things constantly, moving it down to get some fresh air when they sense a Karen-free environment, pulling it back up when one may be around… scratching itches, repositioning it, futzing with it because it doesn’t belong there, quite effectively transferring whatever is on their hands to their face, right where the air passes through on the way into the lungs. Much more face touching, and actually placing the germs right into the airstream into the lungs rather than beside it, is not going to protect anyone.

            Masks give people a false sense of safety, and they do things they would not otherwise do. I’ve even seen an RN doing this, someone who definitely should know better. It would be easy to say that this tendency is easily solved… just wash your hands, don’t touch your face, and keep doing all of the other stuff (distancing, etc) too. Thing is, people don’t work like that. They are not going to stop doing the things that make wearing a mask a hazard. They will make a certain amount of effort and stop there. “Good enough,” they might say, perhaps adding the suffix “…for government work.”

            The average, non-critically-thinking individual has heard the talking heads on TV say to wear a mask so many times, they think that’s the “main” thing to do, and that occasional violations of the other suggestions, like not washing hands, face touching, and distancing (so many of the mask Karens still continue to have social get togethers, that kind of thing) are minor transgressions that won’t make any difference in and of themselves, like eating a small candy bar one time when you’re on a diet, where people say things like, “I was good, I ran an extra mile today! I earned this.”

            With a virus, you can’t be “good” enough in advance to make it not risky to stick a virus-laden finger onto your mask later on. It does not work like that… but human beings do think that way, and you’re not going to be able to change that bit of human nature for hundreds of millions of people with a decree or edict. They’ll wear the mask, sometimes grudgingly, sometimes happily, but they will not do it on your terms. Everyone knows they should not lower the mask below their noses, but tons of people do it anyway. That’s why medical people have to be taught to understand how pathogens work and why one must not touch their face rather than simply being told to “do it because I said so.” They have to internalize the information, and getting people who aren’t training to be medical professionals to accept that is going to make herding cats look easy.

            The various petty tyrants of municipal, county, or state governments even enshrine that “either or” idea in their royal decrees, saying things like “If you can’t maintain 6 feet of separation, you have to wear a mask.” Actually, in terms of compliance, it IS an either-or thing, but if the goal is to stop disease and not merely comply with royal decrees, it’s only encouraging the wrong kind of behavior.

            It depends on what the goal of donning the mask is. I do understand why one must continue to employ the other protocols, particularly hand washing and avoidance of touching, but if I were to wear a mask and if I felt like I needed to adjust it, I’d likely do it anyway. I would not be wearing the thing to prevent disease, after all. It’s not a realistic goal to prevent everyone from having his turn with COVID. Might as well spin the wheel right now when I am feeling healthy and well.

            1. Well put.

              I went in for a scan at the hospital in April and had to wear those stupid kabuki things. During it I had to adjust it because I had NEVER worn a mask before and it was really uncomfortable. I’m an antsy person with ADD. There’s no way in hell I can go one minute without touching it. And I’m sure it’s the case for millions. I observe people in stores too. Everyone is being an idiot. They lower it below their chins, put it back up, lower, back up. It makes the whole exercise a futile exercise in utter stupidity.

              The problem is, people’s psyche are fractured and they’ll cling to the falsehood it ‘helps’. It’s Linus’s blanket.

              1. Thank you for sharing that Rufus. That was very brave of you.

                If wearing a mask is a real challenge for you then by all means don’t do it. Or if it is possible – I don’t know – find some happy middle ground.

                I also agree that too many people are misusing their masks. Wearing the mask below the nose is just generally a bad idea. I see that quite frequently now and it irritates me.

                In general, I think, people just aren’t taking the pandemic seriously. You may think that it is a “win”, and it is in the sense of resisting tyrannical state power, but it is not an unqualified “win” because there are still people out there who have good reason to be anxious about the disease.

                If there is ever going to be a purely voluntaryist approach to public health, it has to start with individuals internalizing a respect for other individuals. If everyone said “screw you I will do what I want” then there would be plagues everywhere and very few people would put up with that.

              2. Rufus gets it.

                +1000000

        4. Pedo Jeffy doesn’t learn, and pretends none of these things are covered. He’s a lying, sophist, child rape enthusiast.

      2. “But being asked, politely, to voluntarily wear a mask, as a sign of courtesy and decency to other people, is viewed as some sort of demand to submit to some terrible tyranny.”

        Come on, man. This is silly.

        You know for a FACT that nobody has been asking politely. The reason this became a political war was because Karens like you won’t let it fucking go. Every single thread, you are popping in to bring up masks. Did that map from Chipper have anything to do with maps? No, but there you are complaining about masks.

        I go on Next Door, and it is wall to wall Karens screaming about masks. I go on Reddit, and it is “Can someone tell me if there are any stores in the county that enforce mask wearing!?”

        You ask how this became a line in the culture war, and there is your answer. You won’t let it fucking go. You want to be smug, explaining how cautious you are. You want to claim to be the man of science (even though the science here is not conclusive at all). You want to argue about it.

        So your next statement is going to be, “Well I wouldn’t have to argue about it if you would just put on the mask.” But I am sorry. From a libertarian perspective, it is YOU who is asking ME to take an action on your behalf. Not wearing a mask is a neutral action. It is neither positive or negative. Telling me to wear a mask is a request, and so by constantly bringing it up, and insisting that I have a responsibility to wear a mask, YOU are causing this problem.

        1. We’re one Liveleak away from a Karen in a mask caught in a road rage incident.

          2020: Rise of the hypocritical mouth diaper wearing pant shitters.

        2. Your (emphasis on the you) rights seem extremely important to you. Have you considered your responsibilities as well? It seems not.

          1. “Have you considered your responsibilities as well? It seems not.”

            In fact I have. Feel free to go back to the numerous times I have explained from a libertarian perspective that nobody has a responsibility to protect YOU from a scourge of nature. Forcing me to mitigate the risk of a natural effect is a violation of the NAP. I have been doing this since Ron Bailey initially came out in favor of compulsory vaccinations, so you can start as far back as that.

            If you would like to make a counter point to that argument, I’ll be here all day.

            1. What about just wearing a mask voluntarily, because there is strong evidence it works and costs you nothing?

              Forced to or not, taking precautions to save other people’s lives is required for the NAP. If you shoot a gun into the air in a city, you are a negligent asshole in violation of the NAP, even if no one is hit. Likewise with being in close proximity to other people during a pandemic that has already killed 130,000 Americans. Reckless and negligent actions that are easily and costlessly mitigated do not need to be tolerated.

          2. I don’t have a responsibility to perform pointless theater to assuage your neuroses. If masks work the way you think they do then it doesn’t matter whether I’m wearing one or not. So continue to hide under your bed like a pathetic bootlicking little bitch with a strip of paper over your mouth letting through viruses like a sieve because its pores are several orders of magnitude too large to prevent their passage, and I’ll go ahead and not do that, and if you don’t like it you can get fucked.

            1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7191274/

              Scientists know more than you. It’s what they do.

              1. Why do you believe that? Esp when we are talking “experts” who are essentially little more than bureaucrats first, who happen to have scientific or medical credentials.

          3. “…Have you considered your responsibilities as well?…”

            Shitstain, your health is NOT my responsibility.

          4. I’ve already agreed that I will remain at home if I feel sick or have a fever. I’ve always done that, not just as a means of recovery, but because I don’t want to spread whatever I’ve got.

            I don’t feel sick. I haven’t taken my temperature, but given that all the times I remember having a fever, I felt awful, I can reasonably conclude I don’t have one.

            So my burden is met.

            If you want me to take the affirmative action of wearing a mask to protect others, the burden is on you to show that I specifically, personally present a risk to them. That would require proving that I have the virus, first of all, and also that I am shedding enough of the virus to make someone sick.

            Simply having the virus present is not enough, as a study published in Respiratory Medicine recently demonstrated. 455 people were exposed to someone with asymptomatic COVID, mean time 4 days for non-medical contacts and 5 days for medical people. At the end of the study, none of the 455 people had COVID. At least some people who have asymptomatic COVID are not passing the disease on to others.

            If you can show me that I am actually shedding enough of the virus to sicken someone, I’ll go one better than wearing a mask (because that probably won’t make a bit of difference)– I will stay at home.

            Until then, the odds that have the virus at any given moment are slim, and the odds that someone that does not feel any symptoms can spread the virus in the momentary non-touching “contact” I would have with a stranger are also slim.

            I’ll voluntarily isolate if I have reason to believe I am shedding the virus, or any virus, but there’s a limit. I’m not going to act on hypotheticals.

            1. I’ve already agreed that I will remain at home if I feel sick or have a fever. I’ve always done that, not just as a means of recovery, but because I don’t want to spread whatever I’ve got.

              If you want me to take the affirmative action of wearing a mask to protect others, the burden is on you to show that I specifically, personally present a risk to them.

              Strangers don’t know that you have committed to stay home if you are sick. As far as they know, you are a raging COVID factory. So how are others supposed to know that you aren’t a risk? By assuming that you wouldn’t go out if you were sick? There are plenty of at-risk people who would love to stay home all the time but must for whatever reason venture out from time to time in public. Maybe you are one of those people. How is anyone else to know?

            2. I came back from Italy in early March. I own a business and we gladly stayed home for two weeks in case.

              I didn’t need De Opresso and his ilk to take that decision. I certainly didn’t need the damn government.

              We did it because it was prudent at the time to do so because we just didn’t want to risk other people.

              But I’m the one who lacks courtesy because in the middle of summer I don’t want to wear a mask six months too late.

              It’s like beating back Zombies having to explain simple, valid logic.

              ‘More brains….’

          5. Pedo Jeffy, why did you switch socks?

            1. Hey Shithead, why are you such an asshole?

              1. Was that meant to somehow explain your pathetic use of sock puppets? And for your information, I’m and asshole (no buts about it) because that’s what you bring out in others with your sophistry, and your other less attractive qualities.

        3. You know for a FACT that nobody has been asking politely.

          I have been. That’s the libertarian way – persuasion over coercion.

          Not wearing a mask is a neutral action. It is neither positive or negative.

          Not wearing a mask is a discourteous action. Wearing a mask is a courteous one.

          Neither one is neutral.

          I don’t think courtesy should be mandated.

          And BTW I am not the “Karen” here. I don’t demand masks be made mandatory.

          1. “And BTW I am not the “Karen” here. I don’t demand masks be made mandatory.”

            And that’s the key, right? Mandates really ARE a restriction of freedom, but that doesn’t mean they are a bad idea. But for some reason everyone wants to frame the debate as either you want a mask-enforcing gestapo, or you think the whole idea of masks is a CCP plot to somehow take over the US.

            1. Not CCP plot, but rather Dem party, to justify canceling their convention and allowing unlimited, unsecured, mail in balloting.

          2. “And BTW I am not the “Karen” here”

            You are Jeff. Because you will not let it go. You can say you are asking courteously, but when you do it over, and over, and over, and over again it is rude. My kids saying “please, please, please, please” a thousand times after I have said, “No” us also rude, regardless of the words we are using.

            Again. YOU started talking about masks, despite the fact that this thread had nothing to do with masks. You did that.

            “Not wearing a mask is a discourteous action. Wearing a mask is a courteous one.”

            I say that repeatedly asking me to wear a mask is discourteous. Where do we go from here? I start by looking at each of our requests. The natural state is where we were 6 months ago. Now you are asking me to change my behavior to protect you. Why is it discourteous for me to decline to change my behavior? I am under no obligation to you.

            The choice to wear a mask is similar to saying hello on the street. If I pass you on the street, it is neither courteous or discourteous to walk on by. To smile and nod is a courteousy specifically because I am doing more than I am obligated to do.

            1. >>I say that repeatedly asking me to wear a mask is discourteous.

              I say it’s treating me like a fucking leper and it makes me outwardly angry.

            2. Well I suppose it depends on how you define “Karen”.

              My definition of “Karen” is someone who goes running to the authorities in order to demand enforcement of the rules. That is not what I propose at all in this case.

              I say that repeatedly asking me to wear a mask is discourteous.

              Fine, the next time I bring up masks, feel free to ignore the conversation and pretend I’m not talking to you.

              The natural state is where we were 6 months ago.

              It’s problematic to view the pre-pandemic state as the normative state.

              Why is it discourteous for me to decline to change my behavior?

              Definition of courtesy (Entry 1 of 2)
              1a: behavior marked by polished manners or respect for others : courteous behavior

              It is not about obligation. It is about respect for others.

              You are right, you have no obligation to be respectful towards others, other than what you choose to oblige yourself to do as a decent human being. (I assume you will from time to time hold open doors for strangers because it’s just a decent thing to do, not out of any formal requirement.) If you do not view wearing masks as respectful towards others, and I can’t change your mind, then fine, the matter is settled then. But I would ask why you don’t view it as respectful towards others. I understand you are not under any *obligation* to wear a mask, or hold open doors for strangers, or give up your seat on a crowded bus to the pregnant lady. But most people would view the latter two as courteous acts. Why not the former?

              1. >>It is about respect for others.

                respect for others because of lies is ludicrous.

                1. What is the lie in this case?
                  Masks do reduce the spread of the virus to others by some small amount.

                  1. And yet have so many negatives. Masks are bullshit, and create a false sense of security. Far better to correct the ignorant than accommodate them. Although that doesn’t appear to have helped you.

                    1. Masks CAN cause a false sense of security, if not used properly. Sure.
                      That is not universally the case and shouldn’t be assumed as such.

                    2. News flash: masks aren’t used properly. And are likely at least as much as a detriment as they are helpful. It also doesn’t help that really ignorant people shrilly bellow in a panicked manner when other people don’t wear them.

                      Those people are to be sternly corrected. Not accommodated. Indulging the weak and stupid is how we have so many progressives running wild.

                  2. Quantify that amount, and come back when you have. I will listen to you if you can show a 90% reduction. I will laugh at you if you can only show a 1% reduction in spread of the virus with proper use of decent quality masks

              2. “…It is about respect for others…”

                Bull.
                Shit.

                1. Well, it is.
                  I know that in your little misanthropic world, respect for others is a foreign concept. But for some of us, it is actually an important idea.

                  1. Wearing a mask is not a virtuous act.

                    Get off this retarded track already.

                    1. Well I suppose that depends on how you define “virtuous”. That is not what I’m arguing.

                      I am arguing that it is respectful towards others. For all they know, you could be a raging COVID factory. How are they to know otherwise? A mask helps to reduce the spread a little bit.

                    2. So what if you are a raging COVID-19 factory (and you almost assuredly are not if you are asymptomatic)? You are highly unlikely to pass it on in passing. Almost all transmission has been in close quarters over at least some period of time (maybe as short as several subway stops in NYC). And, of course, there is little, if any, indication that the virus has been passed outdoors.

          3. Well thankfully for everyone, your opinion as a pathetic sniveling little Canadian bitch means as much as the shit I just flushed, so you can fuck yourself up the ass with a corncob. How’s that for courtesy, you cocksucking little faggot? Courteous enough for your Canadian boipussy?

            Actually though, you worthless bootlicking little cunt, masks have been made mandatory in several states because of courteous little coprophiles like yourself.

            1. You seem angry.

              1. There’s a reason for that.
                We have a toddler here screAming BUT I WANT IT!!! I REALLY REALLY REALLY WANT IT!!!!
                That would be you, and it’s tiresome.
                It’s been pointed out to you that we don’t care whether you hold others responsible for your health. Grow up.

                1. This is not about “holding others responsible for your health”.

                  OF COURSE if someone gets sick, it is the sick person’s obligation to deal with it. Not “society’s”.

                  This is about how we interact in public in a decent and respectful way.

                  If I hold open a door for you, because I see you have your hands full and could use a bit of help, it is not because I think you are “holding me responsible for your building egress needs”. It’s because I’m a decent human being who does not mind a minor inconvenience in order to help someone in need.

                  You could use a little bit of that yourself.

              2. Pedo Jeffy, we’ve all pretty much had it with all your bullshit. Is that difficult for you to understand? Your sophistry, your sock puppets, your enthusiasm for foreign child predators…….

                No one likes you. You are idiotic and loathsome. Just go drink Drano. Or at least go away.

                1. Shithead, you advocate for the literal murder of your ideological opponents. You are the closest thing to a Nazi that we have in these forums. The only reason you are still here is because you have likely been banned everywhere else, except possibly 8chan.

                  At least with Tulpa he demonstrates by his actions that he is not right in the head. You don’t have any such excuse.

                  1. I’ve never been banned anywhere. And as usual, you create some garbage strawman distorting everything I’ve ever said. Which is typical, as you’re a known liar and a weasel.

                    I’ve never done any such thing that you’ve said. Although I would be just fine if you committed suicide. Or if one of your illegal alien pedophile friends killed you. That would just be poetic justice.

                    You just don’t like that I relentlessly call you out on your lies, and your vile beliefs.

          4. Not wearing a mask is a discourteous action. Wearing a mask is a courteous one.

            This whole line of argument has been stirring in me the parallel to ribbon wearing for causes. People love to vibe people into wearing these things [almost like advertising one’s virtue signaling rather than just implying it by judging others].
            The argument above reads to me like one side taking the position that mask wearing is equivalent to ribbon wearing in efficacy. Lets say that is true. What if, in spite of this, it becomes a social norm
            that it is discourteous to not wear a pink ribbon for whatever cause….? why is it that one persons view that it is righteous to signal ones virtue trumps another’s abhorrence of such empty virtue signaling? What is responsible for the onus for consideration of potential viewpoints only seems to fall on one side? Is it impossible to anticipate people might just as easily be offended by empty gestures or the onus to partake in them as it is to anticipate people being offended by someone not partaking in their preferred superstition.

          5. “I have been. That’s the libertarian way – persuasion over coercion.”

            You.
            Are.
            Full.
            Of.
            Shit.
            You’ve been whining, claiming those who don’t agree are horrible people, and so forth.
            Put a sock in it, you pathetic piece of shit. We get you’re an authoritarian who would pull guns in a New York minute if you had a chance.

            1. claiming those who don’t agree are horrible people, and so forth.

              That is a filthy lie. I have never not once claimed that those who don’t wear masks are “horrible people”. Stop it with your ridiculous slander.

      3. Why do you want to prolong the pandemic?

        1. Agreed. Best way to kill the pandemic is to build herd immunity. And you do that by exposing the young, probably anyone without comorbidities, beneath the age of maybe 30. Then maybe below 40. They aren’t going to get very sick, or if they do, not enough to need hospitalization. Almost none of them are going to die from COVID-19. Reopen the schools. Reopen the bars. Even the universities (but make sure to isolate older staff).

      4. Sigh. *Everything* is fodder for being politicized in the Team Red vs. Team Blue culture war.

        1. And you’re such a superior person, right?

      5. I don’t know who said this first, but he was right: Wearing a mask to stop a virus is like putting up a chain link fence to stop mosquitos. It doesn’t. Work. A few years ago everyone either pitied or ridiculed Michael Jackson for wearing a mask, but now it’s some kind of “you’re in the club” stamp that makes retards all tingly inside. You’re talking about cowering from a virus with a .02% mortality rate. 99.98% of the people who get it survive it. Up to 90% of the people who get it don’t even know they have it. That’s how scary and fatal it is. There’s a reason why human immune systems didn’t evolve with flaps over our noses and mouths, and until six months ago everybody knew what it was.

        But fuck it: Sane people are the rude ones now, so the two whores who accosted me in the grocery store, yelling and gesturing that I wasn’t following the floor arrows or wearing a face diaper, have the moral high ground because they *care*. Their level of caring and selflessness and consideration for others is so high that they’re willing to scream at a stranger and grab her cart to stop her in the middle of the aisle. What they weren’t expecting–despite their face diapers I could tell they were shocked–was my heartfelt promise to beat the fucking shit out of them if they tried that again. Stupid bitches probably wish they were born 50 years ago so they could lead struggle sessions under Mao.

      6. “Wear the fucking mask or we won’t perform the MRI” even though you have to remove the mask to get the MRI isn’t “polite.”

        It also violates ADA, because there are actually people who cannot wear a mask for medical reasons.

        So an acquaintance of mine is being forced to choose between being crippled for life, or being harmed by a worthless mask.

        And if you think this sounds melodramatic, you are part of the problem, and not a libertarian.

        I also won’t wear a fetish mask due to extreme asthma. I immediately start coughing and people will think I’m dying of Covids.

      7. If masks work, as proponents claim, then they also delay herd immunity, potentially putting more people at risk. Experts who dissent from the flip flopping Fauxi and CDC advise protecting the high risk while the rest of us achieve herd immunity. How long do mask proponents recommend the high risk stay quarantined? Months? Years? There’s two sides to the story, and they both should be discussed (without disparaging the other side) but the MSM is ignoring the side because herd immunity does not bring in advertising dollars.
        First 5 experts disagree with lockdown measures: https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/covid-19-how-new-information-should-drive-policy?fbclid=IwAR0wphAjHOHXC1EHVrRZy4r-wTp7VLZBl8_hjTfE03bLeiKtJHx8QBrEhyk

    2. *checks notes Los Angeles?

      1. The map he posted is based on a 7 day moving average. So. Cal. will look much worse on the map next week.

    3. And thank you for that link, I will bookmark it.

    4. Yet when you actually do a comparison, red counties and blue counties are suffering at the exact same rates. Maybe, just maybe this virus doesn’t care about political affiliation or a person’s position on Trump.

    5. Hey cool, a non-functional link from the same data farm that projected 2-5 million deaths in February. Solid.

    6. My last month paycheck was for 1500 dollars… All i did was simple online work from comfort at home for 3-4 hours/day that I got from this agency I discovered over the internet and they paid me for it 95 bucks every hour….Read More.

  4. time and everyone going outside fixed everything.

  5. If the German study’s results prove out, that would suggest that earlier common cold coronavirus infections may provide about eight in 10 people some degree of immune protection from the COVID-19 virus.

    Those of us who said, and continue to say, that this is little different than the common cold will now accept apologies.

    1. The common cold doesn’t cause permanent lung damage.
      The common cold doesn’t cause brain damage.
      This is worse than the common cold.
      It is not Ebola-level scary or something on that order of magnitude, no.
      But it is not just the sniffles that you get over with some chicken soup.

      1. Well for the vast majority of people it is actually the sniffles or less.

      2. And just to be clear.
        I do not favor exaggerating the dangers of coronoavirus.
        But I do not favor minimizing the dangers either.

      3. Often the common cold turns in pneumonia for many every year my father had this problem several times and every time you get it it destroys your lungs more causing COPD wether or not you smoke. guess what pneumonia also does it limits oxygen to the brain which causes brain damage.

        1. Ron, you can just look up the numbers for covid complications vs the common cold. It’s not even close. I thought you claimed to be a scientist? So use data, or it will be assumed you are arguing in bad faith.

      4. Huh actually I was wrong. The common cold can rarely cause encephalitis.
        https://www.mdlinx.com/article/5-surprising-serious-cold-and-flu-complications/2RIynpqlR8Jo4EZElIIRmh

        1. Huh actually I was wrong.

          I know. Feel free to apologize.

      5. Actually I read that one of the novel effects of coronavirus is that it causes the blood to get thicker, meaning that there is a higher chance of blood clots and therefore strokes. I don’t think the common cold does that.

        1. In reality you can find anything that will do most things to anyone because we are all different. thats why there are multiple medicines for similar illness since some work for some but not others. the other day they came out with an longer list of ailments that can be signs of covid-19. the darned thing is the list may be correct but for someone like me several of the new symptoms are symptoms i get on a regular basis due to an inherit blood disorder I have and so do 1 in 5000 people. Life is full of mysteries and we take a chances every day.

          1. My wife has a bad habit of picking out outliers with Corona.

            ‘Yes, but a 39 year-old father of three died of it.’

            It’s enough with this senseless emotional crap. It’s sad but welcome to, you know, LIFE.

            It’s not an excuse or justification to SHUT DOWN AN ECONOMY.

            1. Your comment sounds like emotional crap to me.

              1. Good for you.

                Don’t forget to spin the propeller on your beanie before you wear that mask. If you don’t, the corona virus can come git ya.

                /tickles CMW with scary growl.

                1. [giggles]

                  1. At least you’re a good sport.

                    1. Always. Despite our differences, you know I like you, Rufus.

              2. Having the government strip away your livelihood for no reason is a good reason to get emotional. Hearing that someone, somewhere got struck by lightning is not.

                1. Well the problem is that Chipper Morning Wood is a Marxist, and by unfortunate happenstance, also a literal fucking retard with a sub-70 IQ.

                2. I have a huge problem with people who show no sympathy for people who lost their businesses.

                  Huge.

            2. Most people don’t understand that anecdotes are not data. That’s why the media uses so many anecdotes. As an aside, some don’t understand that their own experiences are anecdotes, even as they bellow about having seen it first-hand. Doesn’t make it not an anecdote!

        2. I don’t think the common cold does that.

          Cheeseburgers and high fat dairy does that far more than coronavirus ever could both transiently and long term. It’s the main part of the reason why they want you to fast *and* they want you to sit for ~30 min. prior to having metabolites run. Draw someone 30-60 min. after eating a cheeseburger or fried chicken and their blood looks like strawberry milkshake.

        3. You know what else causes the blood to get thicker? Dehydration. Drink more Purell.

      6. I think that we can say it’s not a common cold. Coronavirus is holding at somewhere between flu and measles in effects. From what we can tell, it’s notably less dangerous than measles in children (coronavirus only has a higher death rate due to low detection of minor infections and a relatively high death rate on the elderly).

        I prefer the comparison to measles because people tend to understand that it’s a potentially (if rarely) deadly disease, but that people used to get it routinely. So getting it isn’t good, but it’s not close to the end of the world.

        1. Pretty much how I view it. But it’s a respiratory illness described as a viral pneumonia.

          Still not enough to continue the madness of locking down and seeing the avatar of left-wing politicians wearing masks on their stupid Twitter handles.

        2. No it is not the common cold yet, it will be next year and thereafter. All the viruses currently associated with the common cold started this way and then we developed resistance to them or they mutated to a less lethal form. Here’s a fun fact, the average human has 5 cold infections a year and the symptoms range from none to severe up to, you guessed it, death. The majority of these are elderly and those with deficient immune systems.

          1. Perhaps, next year, when there is herd immunity, it will be so. However, right now it has killed 130,000 people and hundreds of people are still dying daily (a number that will likely go up soon from all the new cases).

              1. You spelled ‘overcount’ wrong.

                Just sayin’

                1. They’re going to *quietly” adjust those numbers downwards is my strong guess.

                  “Patient died of gun shot wound, heart attack and a dildo shoved up his ass too deep causing internal bleeding. Plus Quaaludes.”

                  “Soooo, Covid?”

                  “Yup”.

                  1. Those fucking nerds and their “studies” with their “data” and their “numbers”!

                    1. 2 -5 million deaths!

                    2. I know, right? They should just “believe” in science like you do, right Tony?

                2. Keep raging against reality.

                  1. Keep licking boots you pathetic sniveling Marxist bitch.

                    CDC admitted 2 months ago that every death WITH Sars-COV-2 is being counted as a death FROM COVID-19.

                    1. George Floyd?

                      Actually, it might have been a contributing factor. The problem for him was that it was combined with half a typical lethal dose of fentanyl, plus sickle cell anemia, all probably contributing to O2 deprivation. The fentanyl reduces the drive to breathe, while the suckling reduces O2 transport efficiency. Plus, of course the knee to his neck (that did not show up as bruising in his autopsy).

                  2. We live on one earth two realities.

                    The papayas running Canada expected 22 000 to 40 000 deaths by the end of April. We’re at 8500.

                    Oooops. Someone forgot to carry the one.

                    They have ZERO credibility to me. May as well be Chrissy Snow up there babbling now.

      7. Here is another article about what coronavirus does to the brain.

        https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-06-stages-covid-brain-neurologists.html

        The paper proposes the adoption of a three stage “NeuroCovid” classification scheme to provide a basis from which to build on future hypotheses and investigations regarding SARS-Cov2 and the nervous system. These stages include:

        NeuroCovid Stage I: The virus damage is limited to epithelial cells of nose and mouth and the main symptoms include transient loss of smell and taste.
        NeuroCovid Stage II: The virus triggers a flood of inflammation, called cytokine storm, which begins in the lungs and travels in the blood vessels throughout all body organs. This cytokine storm leads to the formation of blood clots which cause small or large strokes in the brain.
        NeuroCovid Stage III: An explosive level of cytokine storm damages the blood brain barrier, the protective insulation layer in blood vessels of the brain. As a result, blood content, inflammatory markers, and virus particles invade the brain and patients develop seizures, confusion, coma, or encephalopathy.
        Fotuhi points out that many patients with COVID-19 may have no noticeable neurological symptoms at first; but in some cases, patients may present with neurological symptoms even before they have fever, cough, or shortness of breath. In addition to having an MRI while at the hospital, he stresses that patients will need to be monitored in a few months after their hospitalization.

        “Our experience with previous forms of coronaviruses suggest that in the long-term patients may develop depression, insomnia, Parkinson’s disease, memory loss, or accelerated aging in the brain,” elaborated Fotuhi. “For those recovering from COVID-19, I recommend regular exercise, eating a heart healthy diet, reducing stress, and improving sleep; these are critical ways patients can rejuvenate their brain and minimize having poor outcomes in the future.”

        I’ve read that other flu viruses can potentially cause ‘cytokine storm’ so I don’t know how much worse it is for coronavirus compared to something like H1N1 or H5N1 but it is still troubling.

        1. everyone one of those can be attributed to many things which is clear since they are calling for the usual line of eat right and exercise and sleep which is the answer to everything

          1. COVID-19 causes Syndrome X!

            1. no no no; Syndrome X causes COVID-19

        2. Jeff, do you wear a diaper and helmet when you go out?

          Because I gotta tell ya, you’re acting like you do.

          1. Do you wear a coat in the winter? Or do you say “screw you, you liberal pussies, I’m not going to bow down to your oppressive demands!”

            I take reasonable precautions to mitigate risk when I go out.

            Mocking people for taking reasonable precautions is a sure fire way for people to get hurt when they refrain to do so out of public pressure.

            1. no no no. all the scientists are wrong. the gut feeling i get when i see trump calling the virus a democrat hoax is all I need!

            2. Listen Jeff. I’m from CANADA. I used to play in -20c weather in a fucken baseball cap while playing shinny with a bunch of drunk French-Canadians who chopped wood with one hand and slapped a puck with the other and held a beer in the other hand.

              Once upon a time America sent Joe DiMaggio, Jimmy Stewart and Ted Williams off to war to kill some Nazis. Then they came back and kicked ass.

              Today, we have illiterate, over-compensated, drama queens passing off as tough athlete too scared to play because of a virus. They may be physical specimens but they’re a bunch of pansies compared to the athletes of the past.

            3. I wear a coat when it is cold because I dislike discomfort. It is not a precaution against anything beyond that.

              Masks cause discomfort.

              1. Sure, masks cause a tiny bit of discomfort.

                Then again, holding open the door for someone with their hands full is also a type of discomfort.

                Giving your seat to a pregnant lady on a crowded bus also causes a bit of discomfort.

                If your standard is “I never want to be inconvenienced ever at all” then frankly that position is a bit too narcissistic. Of course your own interests should come first. But, IMO, your own interests should also include a dictum to help those in need if the cost of that help is very minor in comparison. If it doesn’t? Fine, I am not going to force it on anyone, nor should any libertarian. I will however attempt to freely persuade people to adopt a more humanist approach to libertarian thought.

        3. It’s horseshit. They said the same thing about Lyme Disease originally. Now the people who say the same thing about it are as well regarded scientifically as the people who say vaccines cause autism, roundup causes cancer, and gluten sensitivity is a thing.

          1. Someone made a wrong conclusion at some time about some disease, therefore all medical science is horseshit. Got it.

            1. Medical and other science is only as immune to groupthink, confirmation bias, hucksterism, and general quackery as the idiots consuming it. This is demonstrated daily by people like yourself.

              1. It’s also a fallacy of generalization to conclude that because one person made one wrong conclusion at one point of time, that the entire field of study is rubbish. It is just lazy thinking. If you have a problem with the conclusions that I cited in the paper, then say so. I’m not saying they are holy writ, just what has been found so far. But bringing up what someone said about Lyme disease is a crock.

                1. It’s also a fallacy of generalization to conclude that because one person made one wrong conclusion at one point of time, that the entire field of study is rubbish. It is just lazy thinking.

                  You mean like when I never said that then entire field of medical science is rubbish when I was referring specifically to one of the most contemporary and hyped-beyond-hyped medical ‘catastrophes’ of any age and you generalized it to all of medical science?

                  If you have a problem with the conclusions that I cited in the paper, then say so.

                  The problem isn’t with the paper. You just proved that you are your very own living, breathing, walking, talking logic fallacy. You are the problem.

                  1. I was referring to your claim here:

                    It’s horseshit. They said the same thing about Lyme Disease originally. Now the people who say the same thing about it are as well regarded scientifically as the people who say vaccines cause autism, roundup causes cancer, and gluten sensitivity is a thing.

                    That some people made an erroneous claim about Lyme Disease does not mean that the claims made about coronavirus are false. Yes the whole “medical science is rubbish” thing was hyperbole, but it was still a fallacious conclusion.

                    1. “…That some people made an erroneous claim about Lyme Disease does not mean that the claims made about coronavirus are false…”

                      Strawman, and you’re either too stupid to know it, or hope someone here will buy your bullshit.
                      m.c did not generalize; s/he used an example to show that hype-claims are not unknown in the medical field any more than they are among tree-huggers.

              2. What? Scientific research is not credible if the results are accepted by idiots? Masterful reasoning, that.

                1. Weird how I utter the words ‘groupthink’, ‘confirmation bias’, and ‘idiots’ and *both* you and chemjeff show up with the same stupid overgeneralizations.

              3. It’s so funny that you can easily ascribe “groupthink” to teams of scientists working in their field, but not to a large gaggle of morons all crying about how wearing a piece of fabric over their nose when go shopping is tyranny.

                1. It’s also hilarious you can construct a total non-sequitur while replying to one of your sockpuppets and think you are making an actual point.

                2. “…but not to a large gaggle of morons all crying about how wearing a piece of fabric over their nose when go shopping is tyranny.”

                  I can certainly ascribe it to a large group of lefty assholes demanding I take responsibility for their health, lefty asshole.

        4. Our experience with previous forms of coronaviruses suggest that in the long-term patients may develop depression, insomnia, Parkinson’s disease, memory loss, or accelerated aging in the brain

          So they know other previous strains of coronavirus cause Parkinson’s Disease, et al. but you insisted that previous colds didn’t do such things.

          1. Rhinoviruses and coronaviruses are not the same thing.

            1. But rhinoviruses and coronaviruses both cause colds.

              And no one mentioned rhinoviruses in the quoted text, so why include them?

              1. Because he’s a retard, has been made to look like the retard that he is, and now needs a red herring so he can retreat like a pathetic little bitch and pretend this conversation never happened.

                1. I’ll bet he hopes in his heart of hearts that the studies in this article are wrong.

            2. our experience from previous coronaviruses

              Do you even read your own material?

              1. Colds are caused both by rhinoviruses and coronaviruses.

                A cold caused by a rhinovirus may not have the same effects as a cold caused by a coronoavirus.

                Moreover a coronavirus that creates a cold may not be the same type of coronavirus that creates SARS-like illnesses.

                So a claim that “coronavirus may cause Parkinson’s disease” may or may not be equivalent to the claim that “colds can cause Parkinson’s disease”, which is I believe the point of your original complaint here.

        5. Yes, the cytokine storm was the primary cause of death in the 1918 pandemic.

      8. Please provide a detailed list of the countries that completely shut down the national economies for Ebola.

      9. “…This is worse than the common cold…”

        Hint:
        Crawl in a hole and stay there.

      10. Up to 90% of the people who get it don’t even know they have it. So no: It’s not worse than the common cold. The common cold commonly develops into viral pneumonia in the same risk populations that are vulnerable to KungFlu. Since globally pneumonia kills over 800,000 kids under the age of 5 every year, your obsession with KungFlu is misplaced and your ability to assess relative risk is fucked up.

      11. Covids is like AGW. It causes thousands of varying symptoms that change as needed for the narrative. Apparently including priapism.

        And you’re wrong. Even rhinovirii can cause lifetime side effects https://academic.oup.com/qjmed/article/94/1/1/1587820

    2. Don’t hold your breathe. Their won’t be any apologies or anything but more hubris and hysterical hand wringing till this is over and we move on to the next thing.

    3. Remember the spread rate was supposed to be astronomical?

      It’s turning out it’s in line with the flu or slightly hire according to German studies.

      We will wait until Jesus comes back before we get an apology.

      Heck, they’ll never admit they were hoodwinked and that everyone in positions of power simply OVER REACTED.

      I give leeway if you still ‘followed the science’ pimped by medical bureaucrats for, say, 60 days. Now? You have no excuse. There’s enough data and literature to conclude with some measure of confidence coronavirus isn’t what we thought it was.

      Stunning people aren’t evolving along with the new data.

      I just had a friend, who completely misunderstood what I was saying about our protocols, reply in a tone suggesting ‘finally you get it’, ‘good, you’re following the science’.

      Yes, I am. Just not yours or the government. You’re just following orders. Dude, you wear shoe coverings because of the virus.

      And I’m the science denier.

      I’m gonna marry a carrot too.

      1. No, no, no. Per the anti-gay marriage crowd, you have to fuck a toaster.

  6. My area has seen very few deaths or cases. I’m sure there are people that have yet never got, get sick. I’ve spent this time working, going to the store when needed, grilling and drinking beer while listening to tunes on my patio with some friends now and then. We’ve even ate out each of the last four weeks.

    1. even though general business were sheltering in place everyone was going out to the local hardware stores in mass without mask since thats all that was open.

      1. Were you wearing a mask when typed that? /narrows gaze.

        1. Caught me, no mask at the keyboard in my private office

    2. For fuck’s sake, your anecdotes prove jack shit.

      1. Yeah, what are you going to believe, SCIENTIFIC models PROVING that the death count will be 2-5 MILLION or your lying eyes?

  7. Ta-dah!

    If this goes anywhere, makes you realize just how beyond ludicrously laughable the mask mandatory virus really is.

    Either way. I still think all this is one of the great health panics in my lifetime – heck, probably ever.

    Idiots. Just a bunch of pussies, clowns, dolts, knaves, sheep and buffoons pretending to be virtuous citizens and playing the part of governing us.

    Not impressed at all.

    1. I think the mask thing would have been a good idea at the start instead of closing down business and maybe shutting down large gathering unless mask are worn. People were willing to put up with it but instead they have lied to us multiple times and come out with outlandish predictions even now Fauci is claiming there may be 100,000 a new victims a day. Fool me once shame on me fool me twice shame on them. well they have fooled us to often and now we can’t believe them at all since they think exaggeration and lying is the way to get a compliant society but as Ken as pointed out that many were taking precautions before the government said to. they have lost their authority while the sheep, Karens, are clamoring for more authority since they don’t believe in self determination or are looking for a father figure in the form of government to solve everything

      1. So much this. Of course we’re six months too late. Cases have collapsed in Canada and the death rate is off 90% in the USA but here we are, the morons ruling us (and at this point save for a handful of people I wouldn’t let ANY of them near my lemonade stand because they’d squeeze the lemon and miss the jug they’re so fucken useless) now clamouring for MUH MASKS MANDATORY.

        Karens also want masks in schools.

        Despite the cold hard data and paediatricians saying NO to that.

        They project their fears onto their kids. Every time I see a kid in a mask riding his bike I think, ‘Poor kid. His helicopter mother made him do that’.

        smh.

        Know what else masks are good or used for?

      2. Back in the 80s, Fauci was off by an order of magnitude or more about AIDS fatalities because he refused to believe, despite all the available evidence, that it was spread primarily by gay sex.

    2. >>one of the great health panics in my lifetime

      we got War of the Worlds-ded on a global scale

      1. Incase if this was not enough, a new ‘flu virus’ on the way from CHINA.

    3. The Lefties tried to use KungFlu to take advantage of a Lefty caused panic to seize power. Never letting a disaster go to waste is in their playbook.

      It backfired.

      Although, I wish more Americans told Democrat and Republican tyrants running these states, to FUCK OFF, many Americans essentially told the tyrants to fuck off by hitting the beaches and not wearing masks.

    1. The weight of the irony of the “I Can’t Breathe” movement coinciding with the mask mandates is immense. That both are the result of naked aggression on the part of people who are supposedly paid to protect the public should be enough to collapse into a black hole.

  8. In a second study, German researchers analyzed blood samples of 365 people, of which 180 had had COVID-19 and 185 had not.

    Was Helmut Kentler involved in this study?

    1. Were the blood samples from rectal bleeding?

      1. Why? Were you hoping to lick it up?

  9. Really just a question: How often does Reason call attention to studies that “are based on small sample sizes and . . have yet [to be] vetted by peer review”? That seems to be exactly the kind of evidence Reason would assail if they don’t like the conclusion of a study. Does Reason have consistent standards on this?

    1. Every time those studies can generate a click bait headline.

  10. Canada’s dumbass public health officials have changed their propaganda slogan from ‘stay home, save lives’ to ‘wear masks, save the economy’.

    I swear. 2020 is one creepy ass year.

  11. Wasn’t the purpose of lockdowns and masks to delay exposure and it’s byproduct herd immunity? We may have had herd immunity by now if these assholes had let everybody go about their business as usual. Now they’re delaying again because of the bogus 2nd wave which is simply the first wave delayed.

  12. One can’t help but notice that the important research on C-19 is coming from abroad. America is, still, very gravely hampered by our initial and continuing testing failures of over reliance on government monopolies and petty political considerations to “…slow the testing down, please.”

    “Truth
    During the biggest health crisis of this generation, Trump asked his officials to slow down the one thing that could keep us safe: testing.”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEzfHfLaLG4

    1. Stuff your TDS up your ass.

      1. How can anyone resist such fact based, detailed, and eloquent argument as provided by Trump apologists and supporters?

        Trump and Trumpers are about like domesticated turkeys, so unintelligent that they are at real risk of drowning in a rainstorm for looking up and letting their beaks and nostrils fill with raindrops.

        1. “How can anyone resist such fact based, detailed, and eloquent argument as provided by Trump apologists and supporters?”

          How can anyone credit the steaming piles of shit spouted by asshole TDS victims, asshole TDS victim?
          I’m glad he’s got your attention 24-7; you’re stupid enough that you might cause harm if you weren’t obsessed.

        2. Well, I’m convinced.

          Newsletter?

          1. Pretty sure the newsletter consists of:
            1) Subject
            A) How this relates to orange man bad.
            2) Subject
            A) How this relates to orange man bad.
            3) Subject
            A) How this relates to orange man bad.
            4) Subject
            A) How this relates to orange man bad.
            The asshole posting under that handle has yet to suggest how his/her sentiments relate to the listed claim, which is not a surprise. Most new arrivals (or socks) using such ‘noble’ handles prove themselves to be lefty assholes in short order.

  13. I am an anthropologist of 81 years. I have no medical knowledge. However, I do have a brain. The poor information that’s poured over us for months makes me extremely skeptical of “new” calls to action by the same addled “experts” and power-hungry politicians who have had many of us dancing like puppets. Today is DAY 1 of mandatory face masks decreed wholly illegally by Governor Kate Brown of Oregon. I will not comply.

    1. So, where is the evidence for regular cloth masks? I have yet to see it.

    2. CA has required them for a week or so now.
      I put one on when entering a business which requires them. No tickets yet.

    3. Kate Brown can go fuck herself as any governor who pulls this crap.

      I would pay good money for anyone who investigates and films them. I bet you they don’t follow ANY of their protocols.

      They just do it for the cameras and their dumbass avatars on Twitter.

      They’re despicable control freak jerk offs.

  14. ‘If the German study’s results prove out, that would suggest that earlier common cold coronavirus infections may provide about eight in 10 people some degree of immune protection from the COVID-19 virus.’

    Once again Covid-19 is proven not to be magical but to behave like other viruses. Once again, Covid-19 is proven not to behave like a bacteria. Who would have figured?

    1. I’ll make another guess based on general knowledge of how viruses behave. People who have t-cells or antibody counts to low to provide total immunity will get much less severe infections. Anyone want to bet?

    2. If having had earlier common colds provides some measure of protection that kinda suggests a good reason why children seem to fair well.

      I’ve been miserable the last 7 winters because the little germ factories keep bringing home colds and I get it every time.

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  21. In case you did not see my response in the thread. Here is is. For all of you who really think masks work and keep citing the same study, please read this response. FYI. The quote comes from the study:
    One. Thank you for the link. Two. Did you actually read the study? Pretty much all studies were medical masks. And, not all studies found that even medical masks were effective. And, of course the next bombshell.

    “The study suggests cloth masks may increase the risk of infection (MacIntyre et al., 2015), but may not be generalizable to all homemade masks. The material, design and adequacy of washing of cloth masks may have been a factor (Macintyre et al., 2020). There are no other randomised controlled trial of cloth masks published at this time, but if any protection is offered by these it would be less than even a medical mask.”

  22. Tiny non-peer reviewed studies mean nothing. I must assume the studies used lab serological tests, but there has been a number of non-sss studies (small sample size) published that disagree with these findings. Besides, we do not even know yet how long T-cell immunity is conferred. If it is like the two coronavirus vaccines that go out in every season’s flu shots it is 7-9 months, max.

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