Donald Trump

I Don't Hate Trump Because He Is 'the Average American in Exaggerated Form.' I Dislike Him Because of His Policies and Temperament.

In the name of owning the libs, Yale's David Gelertner smears Americans as venal narcissists who can't agree to disagree.


Todd Krainin

Where were we? Oh yeah, talking about how the politicization of everyday life turns people into monsters. Politics is mostly zero sum, meaning one side wins and the other loses and just has to eat it. From a classical liberal perspective, this is one of the main reasons that politics should be squeezed into as small a corner as possible, reserved for those few things that require forced consensus (courts, law enforcement, taxes, some roads and schools). Most parts of life are more voluntary and open-ended, with exit being a prime option. If you don't like somebody's restaurant or store, you can just go elsewhere. If you don't like the reigning party's tax policy, you still have to pay up.

Over at The Wall Street Journal, Yale computer scientist David Gelernter inadvertently illustrates the bad that happens when politics oozes over everything like some spoiled sauce that fouls your barbecue and everything else on your plate. He does this during an attempt to mind-read the libs and divine "the real reason they hate Trump." Liberals don't hate Trump because of any policy he has espoused, any grotesque pussy-grabbing boast he has made, or any violent threat he has leveled, says Gelernter. No, he declares, the liberals hate the billionaire real estate developer because

he is a typical American—except exaggerated, because he has no constraints to cramp his style except the ones he himself invents….

The difference between citizens who hate Mr. Trump and those who can live with him—whether they love or merely tolerate him—comes down to their views of the typical American: the farmer, factory hand, auto mechanic, machinist, teamster, shop owner, clerk, software engineer, infantryman, truck driver, housewife. The leftist intellectuals I know say they dislike such people insofar as they tend to be conservative Republicans.

Gelernter further contends that part of the "leftist intellectual" agenda is "to do away with the jobs that sustain all those old-fashioned truck-driver-type people," which would be news to Bernie Sanders and all the AFL-CIO types who can't stfu about America's deindustrialization (which started in 1943) and the desperate need to bring back "good-paying" jobs like driving trucks. It is a peculiar and generally unconvincing smear to say that left-wingers hate the working class, which might explain why Gelernter doesn't provide much in the way of direct quotes.

There's another problem here: If Trump reflects the typical American, are we then all resigned to be venal narcissists and habitual bullshit artists? After stating several times that Trump is actually an "exaggerated" form of the typical American, he does ask:

Is it possible to hate Donald Trump but not the average American?…

What I see on the left is often plain, unconditional hatred of which the hater—God forgive him—is proud. It's discouraging, even disgusting. And it does mean, I believe, that the Trump-hater truly does hate the average American—male or female, black or white. Often he hates America, too.

I have written a lot about "Trump Derangement Syndrome" (TDS), which leads sufferers to talk about premature impeachment, invoking the 25th Amendment, doing away with the Electoral College, and more. What Gelernter's column drives home for me is that TDS is not simply a left-wing or #NeverTrump phenomenon. It pushes Trump fans—who as often as not will claim to not really, you know, support the guy except insofar as he's not Hillary or Bernie or Kamala or whomever—into their brand of lunacy and to demonize opposing points of view. If you're not for Trump, you're against him and you hate America. Wuh?

The most annoying (offensive?) thing about Gelernter's piece, like others of its type, is that it presumes there really are only two possibilities, pro-Trump and anti-Trump, that swamp everything else, even traditional partisanship. Worse still, the binary hinges not on issues of substance or policy but ultimately on issues of style. To wave away Trump's relentless cheapening of discourse—calling a porn actress to whom his personal lawyer paid $130,000 in hush money horseface is so fucked up on so many levels—is not really any different than being disgusted that he eats his steak well-done and with ketchup. Trump's m.o. is to make everything about himself.

The best response to Trump's general mode of discourse is to not take the bait and make everything about him and his personal preferences. There may be only two major parties in America, but the rest of the political spectrum is alive and well and the increasing number of us who are not represented by existing Republican and Democratic coalitions need to make our independent voices louder than ever. It bears repeating: Just 26 percent of Americans identify as Republican and just 27 percent of us identify as Democratic. Forty-four percent call ourselves independent.

Some of Trump's policies are good and worth defending; many are not. In the main (and this is very disappointing to partisans of either major party), he's probably more like his predecessors than not. The bigger, more important response to both Trump and his fanboys and haters is to refuse to make everything about politics. Because that way madness lies.

NEXT: Migrant Caravan Hysteria Returns

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  1. What difference does his temperment make? If you liked all of Trump’s policies, would you still dislike him because of his “temperment” whatever that means? If you wouldn’t, then you are lying here Nick and don’t dislike him for his temperment. If you would, then you are utterly shallow and more concerned with image than you are with results or any of the policies that you claim to care about.

    Worse still, the binary hinges not on issues of substance or policy but ultimately on issues of style. To wave away Trump’s relentless cheapening of discourse?calling a porn actress to whom his personal lawyer paid $130,000 in hush money horseface is so fucked up on so many levels?is not really any different than being disgusted that he eats his steak well-done and with ketchup. Trump’s m.o. is to make everything about himself.

    If you think poltiical discourse hasn’t always been cheap, you are an idiot. The only difference with Trump is that he aims that discourse at people like you and you don’t like it. Well tough shit Nick. You are the one that choose the world’s most loathsome profession, AKA journalism. You are the one who hitched your sense of social status to the sad sack collection of intellectual midgets and emotional toddlers known as the major media. The fact that you didn’t realize some enterprising politician would come along one day and make an entire political carreer off of the general public’s loathing of you and your ilk is your fault not his.

    1. Why is journalism the world’s most loathsome profession, John?

      1. Because it is and has always been a low rent profession based mostly on lying to sell copy and never done by serious people except as a way to support themselves why the did other worthwhile things. You only don’t think it is because journalists agree with your politics. Since you are literally too stupid to understand anything except through politics, you think they are great.

        1. You only read right-wing bullshit on the internet. Is the fact that it’s only very charitably called journalism why you don’t count yourself as a hypocrite?

          Where should people get their news from? Old men on porches?

          1. “Where should people get their news from? Old men on porches?”

            WOW. You heard it folks, Tony thinks women are too stupid to tell you what’s going on in the world

            1. Tony is a complete idiot. So there is that.

          2. *You only read right-wing bullshit on the internet*

            Categorically untrue. He’s here on Reason isn’t he?

            1. He’s here to vomit rightwing lies in the comments section and bitch at the authors here every time they don’t regurgitate in the same manner.

              1. Yet he gets much, much closer to the truth than you do.

              2. “RIGHTWING LIES”
                But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. Tony had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.

              3. What are you here for? Is it just your programming?

          3. Tony saying John “only reads right-wing bullshit on the internet” shows how he is the epitome of the low-info useful idiot.
            That “right-wing bullshit”, which pales in comparison to the volume and reach of the leftist propaganda fed to us in the vast majority of newspapers and especially the broadcast television “news”, is the only counter to what we have been seeing since the cold war days.
            Tony wants us to just accept what the mainstream “journalists” tell us, despite what they refuse to report on, because it is all part of the leftist narrative.
            Moving us, where? To a “progressive” utopia?
            Most Americans, when give all the facts, not what the mainstream media tries to tell us, think what the left wants is far from “progressing”, at all. Just the opposite.

        2. Not to mention that Progressive Democrats Bernays & Lippmann developed methods of propaganda for journalists to control “the people” and direct them onto the chosen path/agenda. They first used these methods in support of Progressive Democrat President Wilson to garner country-wide support of segregating the federal government. They were used to support the KKK, implement Jim Crow laws, destroy the black stock market, deny MLK his Constitutional Rights especially 2A just like today’s Progressive Democrats.

          These same methods have been admired and used by numerous other variants of Marxism, in particular by National Socialist Goebbels of Germany, Communist Lenin of Russian, Communist Mao of China, and more recently by Progressive Democrats in the USA.

        3. Journalism is not about lying to sell copies of their papers. If that was the case, journalism would be a great upstanding profession. News organizations make their money on ad space. They are lying to protect the corporations and industries who are funding their enterprise, and making it sound palatable to the American public.

      2. Is that a serious question? I thought it was just widely accepted.

        1. The spreading of inaccurate information on the internet is a problem. I agree too! That’s what we have journalism for. (Everything John thinks he understands about the world he gets from inaccurate information on the internet. The fact that so much of it comes directly from Russia propaganda warms my cockles.)

          1. “That’s what we have journalism for.”

            To spread inaccurate information on the internet?

            1. To inform us more or less accurately.

              Rightwingers becoming truth relativists has been quite something to witness these last couple decades.

                Of late Tony had taken to bleating “Four legs good, two legs bad” both in and out of season, and often interrupted the Meeting with this. It was noticed that he was especially liable to break into “Four legs good, two legs bad” at crucial moments in Snowball’s speeches.

                1. I agree with Tony. And you other guys fit the recent and sadly common right wing mold.

                  1. I agree with Tony
                    Did Hihn finally show Tony his patented sock technique, or did Media Matters pay for another fifty-center?

                    1. You despoil the very concept of rational thought with your whoring out of Orwell for fascist right-wing ends.

          2. Every individual jounalist/editorialist is biased. One may agree or disagree with those biases, but to only get “news” from those one agrees with is going to result in reinforcing one’s bias.

            A better way to use news sources is to get input from a collection of sources with widely differing biases, and then compare the information from each source with that from all the others. This will result in one getting a feel for the range and direction of the various biases and get a closer view of the underlying truth.

            The result will still be biased; however if done correctly the bias should be markedly less.

            1. People are sick of propagandists saying that they are unbiased reporters of the news.

            2. This is how I’ve always done it. I know a left wing rag will bring up stats or arguments you’d never hear from a conservative or libertarian rag, and the conservative rag will have its own angle, and the libertarian one will have their arguments too. Once you look at all the info and opinions they all have to present, one should be able to logically parse through the info and arrive at a fairly intelligent and accurate assessment of what the hell is ACTUALLY going on. Even idiot leftists sometimes bring up valid issues, although their solutions are basically always wrong.

          3. That’s what we have journalism for.
            That’s what you have the JournoList for.

            Today’s progressives and The John Birch Society of the 80’s have become indistinguishable.

          4. The fact that Tony thinks much of the “inaccurate” information on the internet “comes directly from Russian propaganda” shows what a true idiot he is, or simply extremely mendacious.
            Tony, it is you commies, who loved everything that came out of Russia, since 1917. Something that hasn’t changed much, since their loss of your desired form of government – sovietism.
            The idea that they are pushing the liberty, that you describe as “right-wing bullshit”, is as ludicrous as is your on-line persona.

      3. What you call journolism is propaganda.

        1. No it’s journalism, just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it fake news as indicated by Der Fuhrer

      4. In addition, studies show that journalists score lower than average on IQ tests.

    2. Temperment is important to a lot of voters.

      At least it is when their opponent is an asshole.

      1. To all whose posts are above: the word is “temperAment”, not “temperment”. Don’t any of you get little squiggly red lines when you spell something incorrectly?

        1. Wingnuts signal each other and establish anti-elites credibility with subliterate spelling, capitalization, etc.

          1. Left wing pseudo- intellectual half brains signal each other by using “signal” and “dog whistle”. And mobbing people.

        2. I don’t need squiggly lines, spelling mistakes jump off the page at me! Makes it hard to read a lot of things though.

    3. +1 john.

    4. While I think you have a point, you are also, perhaps inadvertently, proving the point of the article. In a climate with exchanges like this, where the gloves come off immediately, the term derangement syndrome seems only a mild exaggeration.

    5. Only a Trump asshole licker would defend Trump and hate on journalism (one of the few things keeping politicians slightly leaning honest). Nick G is on point with this article.

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  2. “Gelernter further contends that part of the “leftist intellectual” agenda is “to do away with the jobs that sustain all those old-fashioned truck-driver-type people,” which would be news to Bernie Sanders and all the AFL-CIO types who can’t stfu about America’s deindustrialization (which started in 1943) and the desperate need to bring back “good-paying” jobs like driving trucks. It is a peculiar and generally unconvincing smear to say that left-wingers hate the working class, which might explain why Gelernter doesn’t provide much in the way of direct quotes.”

    Yup, those “leftist intellectuals” are totally the same people who talk about buying union made products and trade protectionism.

    1. I like this game that Gillespie is playing. Pretending like “leftist intellectuals” are the same people who support trade protectionism and bemoan the loss of manufacturing jobs. It’s adorable, because it’s so unbearably dishonest.

      Gee, with all those pro-union leftist intellectuals, it’s a real wonder why Democrats keep losing in the Midwest? It’s almost as if the base of progressivism is not comprised of the working-class but instead people who Gillespie has cocktails with.

      1. Nick lies and lies and lies and then acts surprised when people dont believe anymore.

      2. Yup. Once upon a time there used to be a lot of those sorts in the Democratic party… But no longer.

        The left really has been completely taken over by pampered wealthy white pseudo-intellectuals who believe in communism, and their voting base is mostly just welfare cases at this point, or at best minimum wage employee type people. I just don’t see many middle class blue collar types that swing to the left anymore. I mean sure, they exist, but not like they used to… And what few are left seem to be leaving the left at a pretty good clip. Some just haven’t quite figured out that the Dems do not give a shit about them anymore yet.

        1. Not so much communism those pampered, wealthy, white pseudo intellectuals believe in, as it is sovietism.
          Under soviet rule, the elites get to keep what they have, while it is the proletariat that have to accept their status and turn over what money they earn to government, to be distributed as the elites see fit, with a hefty portion going to them.
          And that elite status is only gained from the kind of process the elites create – mostly through showing loyalty to the party and having connections within their circles.
          The left wants a United Soviet States of Amerika. It is a simple as that. They’ve wanted it since they saw it in the USSR.
          They just won’t admit it.

          1. Pretty much. The benefit of calling a system “communism” is just to give positive spin to a system that is even MORE concentrated in wealth and power than any capitalist system on earth. Hell, it was more concentrated in the USSR than in feudal systems!

      3. On the other hand, can you really say that Republican party is pro-union? Exactly who is supporting the union workers in the Midwest? Republicans are union-busters. Maybe Trump by accident.

        1. I hope they are never Pro-Union. You can be pro-Jobs and pro-Worker without being pro-Union. In fact, it actually helps if you aren’t.

          1. This. The actual job holders are not helped much by the left. The coal mines are shut down. The EPA hits plants with fines and regs. But the union bosses… they benefit greatly by the left. It’s exactly how the union boss in Atlas Shrugged describes it. He can get the tubes to vote… but he admits it will not work and they will get crushed. But hey… he’s having cocktails with the power brokers and is cool with it.

  3. At least he’s not Hillary. Talk about temperament.

  4. Venal narcissists? That sounds accurate for your average American who follows politics.

    1. But not you. You’re different.

  5. >>>He does this during an attempt to mind-read the libs

    silly computer scientist …

  6. I like how, to show that you aren’t a narcissist, you went with a headline that uses “I” twice

    1. Nick never explains why he “hates” Trump other than he disagrees with Trump on some but not all issues and doesn’t like the way Trump talks about his opponents. Of course lots of politicians whom Nick disagrees with more do not qualify for being hated by Nick. So ultimately, Nick hates Trump rather than just disagrees with him because Nick doens’t like his style.

      But Trump is the shallow narcassist here not Nick.

      1. >>>Nick never explains why he “hates” Trump

        chicks don’t let Nick grab them by the anything.

        1. i’m sorry that wasn’t nice…maybe they do what do i know?

        2. Grab them by = Seize
          the pussy = the means of production

          Don’t know why Nick and neo-Reason would be against Marxist sentiment.

          1. Well done

      2. I don’t actually disagree with a lot in this piece, but it would be easier to take it seriously if we hadn’t spent the last year subjected to Reason fawning over assholes like McCain and Flake. And it seems obvious to me that policywise, so far at least, Trump is far better than a president Hilary or McCain would have been. But pointing that out makes me a partisan fanboy I guess.

        1. Trump is clearly one of the best presidents in some 80 years.

          Nick hates that. Nick hates that the USA has not imploded so anarchyland can rise from the ashes.

          Anarchists are like that. Bitter that the world survives without anarchy.

        2. Watch your six. The enlightened “woke” often express their peaceful political disagreement from ambush with blunt objects.

          But never fear, they’ll get right back to civility as soon as the voters have been intimidated into returning the Democrats the power to which they are entitled.

      3. He wrote in the headline he DIDN’T hate Trump. But hey, you’re on a roll.

  7. And it does mean, I believe, that the Trump-hater truly does hate the average American?male or female, black or white. Often he hates America, too.

    It is incredibly offensive for Drumpf’s defenders to accuse us in #TheResistance of hating America. In fact, we are the patriotic ones. As has been thoroughly documented by now, Drumpf is a puppet installed by a hostile foreign power that hacked our election in an attack on our democracy no less serious than 9 / 11. The people who hate America are the ones who tolerate Vladimir Putin effectively controlling our government, like this Yale guy apparently does.

    So the author is a professor of computer science, huh? Look, I love science, but maybe he should listen to Ivy League professors in more relevant fields. Professor Tribe of Harvard Law, for example, has noted the extent to which Putin dictates high-level personnel decisions in the Drumpf Administration. According to Tribe’s analysis, Tillerson was ousted as Secretary of State on Russia’s orders because he would no longer play ball. Do I “hate America” because I find that outrageous? Hardly.


    1. Good to see you back on top of your game.

    2. Ok, I admit (again) that I am slightly sarcasm challenged. Is this sarcasm? If so, then very well done OBL. If you are serious, then wow. Just wow.


      1. The beauty of OBL is that it is indistinguishable from an actual lefty. OBL could BE Tony, or Buttplug, or chemjeff save that it is much more well spoken.

    3. And one of the leaders of your pathetic resistance is Obummy, who was clearly a NWO Globalist Elite puppet!…Y’know, the same Obummy who won a Nobel Peace Prize & then committed enough War Crimes throughout the Middle East & North Africa to make Shrub #2 look like Mr. Rogers!

  8. This is delicious, watching pro- and anti-Trumpers coming out of the woodwork. Go Git ‘Em Gillespie!

  9. It is a peculiar and generally unconvincing smear to say that left-wingers hate the working class, which might explain why Gelernter doesn’t provide much in the way of direct quotes.

    Trumptards don’t need quotes or facts.

    1. Yeah, you don’t hate the working class at all. You call them Trumptards out of love and respect.

      1. Trumptards are relatively middle class people who are fixated on the threat of a swarthy man impregnating their daughter. The working class voted for Democrats the last time around, tear-jerking media narratives about poor meth heads to the contrary.

        1. “…the threat of a swarthy man impregnating their daughter.” I understand there is an entire porn industry prefaced on that very idea.

        2. As opposed to progressives, who so live in terror if being considered intolerant that they cannot being themselves to tell swarthy men that it is bad form to molest other people’s daughters.

          1. We got Cosby didn’t we.

            1. He went off your plantation into conservative rhetoric before you got him. I believe that made him inauthenticly black.

              1. As far as Tony and the DNC were concerned, Cosby was a race traitor.

        3. Really? Then why is it leftists who keep bringing that up? And why was it Democrats who gave us the term “miscegenation”?

        4. SPB, Tony,

          Why the need for name calling? I suppose is seems clever to you to blend Trump and retard into one word, as if somehow that reflects badly on Trump supporters. But surely you know if reflects badly on you. Don’t you? Don’t misunderstand me, there is a lot to dislike about the trump presidency, but childish name calling suggests that you don’t have anything more intelligent to offer.

          1. Nut up snowflake.

          2. You tell him!

    2. The only problem with Gillespie’s contention is that voting results and polling don’t support his contention.

      1. It’s insanity at this point to pretend as if the working class doesn’t skew Republican with or without Trump. Labor union leaders have warned about this and so have fellow Democratic representatives. Gillespie is being purposely disingenuous here.

    3. So when Hilary told us about the Deplorables she was describing east coast journalists and professors? Not working class people in flyover country? She really should have clarified that at the time.

  10. If Nick is so concerned about the cheapening of political discourse, perhaps he should stop virtue signaling and saying he “hates Trump”. Perhaps one of the biggest problems with have with political discourse is that no one can ever seem to disagree with anyone without hating the other person. What has Trump done to Nick that justifies Nick hating as opposed to disagreeing with him? Nothing as far as I can see.

    This whole article might be some kind of new high in lack of self awareness. The point of the WSJ piece is that Trump represent a sort of courseness and plane spokenness and willingness to break with conventional wisdom that appeals to the country at large but is seen by the elites as a reason to hate and look down upon the country at large. So what does Nick do? Proceeds to explain how he hates Trump because his policies are different from the conventional wisdom Nick loves and because Nick thinks he is course. And as an added bonus, Nick accuses Trump of coursening poltical discourse in an article with the headline that says Nick hates Trump.

    1. Nick said he didn’t hate Trump, you moron. He said he “dislikes” him.

      1. Read the headline retard.

        1. Where Nick clearly says “I don’t hate Trump”.

          You are plainly stupid. Your reading comprehension is atrocious.

          1. He didn’t say he doesn’t hate Trump. He just said he doesn’t hate him ‘”because He Is ‘the Average American in Exaggerated Form'” and/or “because of His Policies and Temperament”.

            He could still totally hate Trump for having more Twitter followers or looking better in a leather jacket or whatever.

            Also, I’ve always taken, or at least frequently come across, the “I don’t hate… I dislike” as a disingenuous deflection or Mott-and-Bailey: I don’t mean to be racist… I don’t hate black people, I just dislike black culture, politics, and temperament.

            1. He just said he doesn’t hate him ‘”because He Is ‘the Average American in Exaggerated Form'” and/or “because of His Policies and Temperament”.

              He could still totally hate Trump for having more Twitter followers or looking better in a leather jacket or whatever.

              That is correct.

              However in the headline Nick immediately modifies the term “hate” and replaces it with “dislike”. He italicized for emphasis.

              So therefore John is wrong and still just as stupid as ever.

              1. When you’re that wrong buttplug, pedantry isn’t going to help.

              2. Buttplugger takes propagandists at face value.

                He no understand why Americanos no believo media hacks.

    2. It’s coarse, not course!…But, other than that you are Spot On! Bravo!

  11. If America is 44% independent and Trump and Hillary were historically unpopular….the LP is dead in the water. Have “independent” parties even combined to hit 7% of the vote, much less the 44% Nick ckings to here?

    1. That is a great point. If Trump and Hillary were so unappealling to everyone as Nick claims, then the fact that the LP still couldn’t get any traction says very bad things about the future of the LP. That should bother Nick a bit and cause him to if nothing else be a bit hesitant to make that claim. But, he doesn’t seem to think through his ideas very well and just emotes whatever sounds good at the time.

      1. I joined the LP back in the late 70’s. We all knew at the time that we’d have to grow fast, or the major parties would realize the threat before we were able to defend ourselves, and enact all sorts of barriers to our succeeding.

        Well, we didn’t grow fast enough, they did figure out we were a threat, and they did enact those barriers. And some time around the mid 90’s, all the serious people figured out that the LP was no longer a viable way to attempt to turn American politics libertarian, and moved on.

        And the LP was left with the dregs, who either couldn’t figure that out, or didn’t care.

        Now, even given a historic opportunity like Trump vs Hillary, the LP stupidly runs candidates who aren’t even really libertarians. It’s not even an educational vehicle anymore.

        1. And this is why, barring a collapse of one of the major parties, the Republican party simply needs to be taken over by more libertarian leaning folks.

          I said a long time ago that once the older so-cons start to die off, there is no reason the Republicans can’t become more libertarian on social issue, which should leave them killing it electorally. Most people in the US are socially center left, and fiscally center right… So if the Republicans go that way, the more libertarian way, they should dominate.

          1. I don’t know if the Republican Party will ever be “taken over” by more libertarian leaning folks, but the old so-con constituency is definitely on the wane. If the GOP is smart, they will certainly incorporate a more libertarian approach, but the pessimist in me understands that the GOP isn’t known as The Stupid Party for nothing.

            On the other hand, the Democrats aren’t known as The Evil Party for nothing. Most Americans understand that we are faced with a political reality in which our choice is indeed binary, and outside of highly concentrated “blue” enclaves, they simply aren’t buying the incoherent mess of progressive, statist, identity tribal warfare the Democrats are selling.

            The Democrats have become an existential threat to individual liberty and personal responsibility, and they must be absolutely defeated. Hopefully the GOP won’t blow it this time. There is really no other game in town for libertarian leaning people.

            1. Well, taken over can mean different things to different people. I wouldn’t mean to imply that libertarians will ever be 100% of the party… Since we’re rigged to only have 2 parties that can get anywhere because of laws, they’re always going to be coalition parties. BUT what part of the coalition is calling the tune can change.

              The paleo-cons, squishy moderates, so-cons, neo-cons, etc have all had their day running the GOP. And they all still exist to certain degrees within the party today. If the libertarian wing could become the dominant wing, obviously giving some concessions to the other parts of the coalition, that would be a pretty tolerable outcome.

              Imagine if guys like Ron/Rand Paul, Amash, etc were the TOP dogs everybody was falling in lock step behind. Not bad at all!

              I really do think the only way to save America is taking that general tact, and throwing in a good dash of nationalism that moron purist libertarians are against, and there ya go. No other way will likely save the country, economically, politically, culturally, or otherwise… Because the Dems have turned into an existential threat as you say.

              1. Agreed. But I’ve seen Lucy yank the proverbial football away at the last minute too many times to be overly optimistic about the libertarian trajectory of the Stupid Party. But then again, I was wrong (and grateful to have been) about Trump. Hopefully, my pessimism is misplaced. In any case, since the Democrats are an absolute horror show, and the LP is fundamentally unserious, there really isn’t any alternative.

            2. The Republican Party IS in the process of being taken over by more libertarian leaning folks–while they desperately avoid Libertarian leaning folks.

              Big ‘L’ libertarians are that part of the ideology that has succumbed to Conquest’s Law. They have, over time, become leftist.

              And, in so doing, are an active anti-liberty skein in Libertarian clothing.

              The fact of the matter is that actual libertarian ideas are seeping into the GOP–at such a base level that many of them seem to simply be part of Republicanism at this point.

              1. I think that is fairly true. Almost all young people who identify as Republican or conservative are REALLY just libertarians. They may be more or less pure, but they’re definitely within the libertarian part of the Nolan Chart. Seems inevitable to me this will continue as the so-cons essentially die off, and hence lose their influence. There are brand new so-cons being born, but in far smaller numbers than the olden days. And who cares about neo-cons anymore? Nobody takes them seriously, except the MSM and Reason! LOL

                So I think the trajectory is in a libertarian direction. It probably won’t get as libertarian as most here would like anytime soon, but any trending that way is a good thing.

    2. Over the past 50 yrs. in the USA, 3rd party candidates & independents have not only gotten hi vote %ages in many elections, but gotten candidates elected to high offices. In some states 3rd parties have been a significant force. It’s just not LP. So yeah, LP is dead in the water, but not solely for the reason of #3 disadvantage.

      1. Ross Perot didn’t do badly. Hell, Jon Anderson got 10% in 1980 if I am not mistaken. The LP is a joke that appeals to virtually no one.

    3. Progressive Party won 27.4% when Teddy ran in the 1912 election.

    4. The problem was that so many people were afraid of one side or the other winning that they felt they had to vote R or D, rather than I to stop either Trump or Hillary from winning. That is the major problem here. lIbertarians aren’t taken seriously enough to get people to vote for them. They dont want to be the reason one side or the other wins and they “wasted their vote on a third party” . That is something I had a lot of during the 2016 campaign. People kept telling me I was wasting my vote. I didn’t care. I would not vote for someone I didn’t want to in order to help one side or the other. I wasn’t selling out out of fear. Too bad most people couldn’t be convinced to do the same.

      1. To some extent, this is true, I think. But I also think the LP got caught a bit flat footed in 2016. Had there been some advance warning that Donald Trump would be Hillary’s opponent, pitting arguably the two most reviled candidates in the history of modern politics against each other, surely other libertarians would have stepped up in the primary, and we would have had a better candidate. No, he/she would not have won. But 2016 was the opportunity to deliver to America the libertarian message, when America was listening.

        1. ” Had there been some advance warning that Donald Trump would be Hillary’s opponent…”

          There was plenty of warning. We simply persist in listening to people who have repeatedly proven themselves wrong.

          Wishful thinking is not a plan, and if Reason was a serious libertarian publication it would have cleaned house after the election.

    5. The LP is dead in the water because they put forth idiots like Weld & Johnson in 2016, who think it is OK to FORCE private businesses to serve sexual perverts even if it violates their conscience & religion & desecrates one of their sacred spiritual rituals!

  12. OK shit for brains, explain to me how Trump is different from Clinton (Bill that is). The policies are almost entirely the same and while one has spoken about how some women allow you to take liberties with them because of your wealth or position, the other has had actual allegations of rape lodged. So no, they don’t care about the policy positions or the vulgar language they hate him because he reminds them of the people they fled and/or look to control.

    Seriously, most everything done so far is the same as the last 3 presidents (a bit better here, a bit worse there) and the only difference is just how insane the left activists, DNC and journolist propagandists have gone in the last 20 years.

    1. The policies are almost entirely the same

      Not true at all.

      Clinton was a free trader and balanced budget guy.

      The Dotard is neither.

      1. No, Clinton was not. He signed that budget because Dick Morris said if he didn’t he’d lose re-election.

        Gingrich was very much a balanced budget guy. And, way back then, so was John Kasich.

        Times change, though.

        1. Bullshit. Zero Republicans signed “that budget” in 1993.

          They signed a meaningless balanced budget resolution with no teeth or cuts in it.

          1. The 1993 budget didnt balance a thing, son.

            Thats why it did not “balance” for several more years after several budgets later.

            1. Yes it did, boy. It put into place the rates that (combined with a juggernaut economy) would create a surplus by 1999.

              A 39.6% top rate is not libertarian but it worked great for the budget and combined with some modest spending cuts put us solidly into the black (until the Bushpigs came along and left town with trillion dollar deficits)

              1. Yes it did, boy.

                Explains the deficits of $200B indefinitely in hhe budget submitted in 2005 by his OMB. Because he balanced the budget in 2003.

                It put into place the rates that (combined with a juggernaut economy) would create a surplus by 1999.

                His own administration predicted deficits of $200B for damned near ever in 2005. You’re going to have to explain that one away, junior.

                A 39.6% top rate is not libertarian but it worked great for the budget and combined with some modest spending cuts put us solidly into the black (until the Bushpigs came along and left town with trillion dollar deficits)

                The only trillion dollar deficit budgets were signed…by Obama. Bush signed exactly zero of them.

                1. You know nothing about budgets and deficits.

                  Bush never SIGNED a trillion dollar deficit but he CAUSED them.

                  By Jeanne Sahadi, senior writer
                  Last Updated: January 7, 2009: 5:00 PM ET

                  NEW YORK ( — The U.S. budget deficit in 2009 is projected to spike to a record $1.2 trillion, or 8.3% of gross domestic product, the Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.

                  The dramatic jump to the highest-ever deficit in dollar terms compares to a $455 billion deficit in fiscal year 2008 and $161 billion in 2007. The estimate does not account for the massive spending and tax cuts proposed in President-elect Barack Obama’s economic rescue plan.

                  “As a share of the economy, the deficit for this year is anticipated to be the largest recorded since World War II,” the CBO said in its annual budget and economic outlook report

                  Bush was STILL POTUS, boy.

                  JAN 2009

                  1. Hey dumbass. Bush was warning about over leveraging markets and mortgages all the way back to 2003 only to be stopped by Congress, most notably Barney Frank. Blaming bush for the crash proves you’re fucking retarded.

                    1. 2003 only to be stopped by Congress, most notably Barney Frank.

                      God you’re a fucking idiot.

                      A House member can’t stop anything, can’t filibuster, can’t block, can’t do shit.

                      The Bushpigs pumped up the junk mortgage biz by giving every deadbeat $10,000 for a downpayment.


                    2. GOP had full control of the House 1994-2007 you dumbass.

                      Hastert was Speaker. DeLay was majority leader.

                      Frank was a nothing.

                  2. Also, FY09 was signed by Obama fucktard.

                    1. Barney Frank “stopped” The Hammer and Bushpigs from legislation!

                      I am still laughing about that one.

                      Did Fat Rush tell you that?

                    2. Buttplugger seems more and more upset with every angry post.

                      Its been a tough 22 months with trump as prez.

                  3. Budgets come from the year before, and the House puts them together.
                    2007 (Signed in 2006) – the last budget by Bush and a Republican controlled House – you know? the ones with the purse-strings – was $161B.
                    The next year, it was Nancy, who was in charge of the House and the deficits rose from there.
                    Two years later – “the great recession”.
                    The president doesn’t create budgets, just proposes what he wants and signs the one presented to him, or shuts down the government.
                    Clinton never balanced a budget – it was through manipulation of the figures that made the phony claim of a “surplus”.

  13. and yet every Dem in my redneck of the woods is pretending to be running against The Donald instead of whomever is their actual Repub opponent. All Repubs are the same, aren’t they now?

  14.…..n-peterson is an excellent list of the mis-doings of Trump, Pence, Arapaio, and other ? people who are totally scummy, but Team Red defends them anyway!!!

    Trump is a non-grownup in a job where we need a grownup. I can forgive those who voted for Trump in the general election, with Hillary as the other alternate. I can NOT forgive those who voted fro Trump in the primaries, with SOOO many better choices to be had!

    1. Because Donald’s rotten character was already obvious at the primaries.

      All Hail to THE Pussy Grabber in Chief!!!

      I fundamentally think that a huge percentage of Trump voters (who bothered to study up in the slightest) voted for a Pussy-Grabber in Chief who would pussy-grab for them, on behalf of them and theirs! If PGC (Pussy-Grabber in Chief) could pussy-grab the people whose loans he defaulted on, people who’d been ripped off by his “school”, and illegal humans who’d worked on building his buildings, and on and on, then SURELY the PGC can grab some pussy for us selfish, short-sighted voters! We can pussy-grab our international trade partners, and other nations, races, and creeds in general!

      These voters simply cannot or will not recognize the central illusion of politics? You can pussy-grab all of the people some of the time, and you can pussy-grab some of the people all of the time, but you cannot pussy-grab all of the people all of the time! Sooner or later, karma catches up, and the others will pussy-grab you right back!

      1. They voted for the candidate who didn’t hate them. Funny that. A platform of open disdain towards large sections of the country did not induce said sections to vote for the candidate running on the platform.

        1. How about the primaries? Did Jeb Bush hate the common, ordinary peon? That’s just ONE candidate there…

          1. Yes Jeb did. Jeb made it clear that he considered immigrants superior to native born Americans and felt we needed to import them to improve the country. The entire GOP sold out on immigration and trade and ceded the field to Trump. And then called his supporters racists and made no effort to co-opt any of his issues.

            1. I can’t feel the hatred of me when I am forbidden from hiring or associating with the illegal humans, in the name of the collective hive. I can feel the hatred when the collective hive makes these kinds of decisions for me, then claims to be my moral superiors.

              1. Ooops, typo, I can feel the hatred in both cases…

              2. You just admitted you hate these people. Thanks for proving my point.

                1. I fee the hatred of the collective hive. Did I say that I hate them back? I just wish they’d learn about karma…

          2. Ummmm….yes?

            Are we to believe that those counties that flipped from voting for President Obama to voting for Trump were only interested in grabbing pussy? That literally makes no sense.

            What kind of bizarre counterfactual history are we playing with here?

            1. FIGURATIVE pussy-grabbing!!! Getting Trump to be selfish on the USA’s common SUPPOSED good, in a short-sighted manner! Have you no poetry in your soul?

              Obama did not go bankrupt 6 or 7 times, or commit the other abuses of the public, that Trump has done, even before getting elected.

              1. I have no idea what any of the nonsense that you just spewed has to do with the fact that the working class doesn’t vote Democrat anymore and has been trending in that direction for almost twenty years now. Do you have a point here?

                1. OK, not TL;DR this time… Short-sightedly selfish voters voted for Trump because he had a known track record of being short-sightedly selfish on the behalf of Trump and Trump’s family. Trump is now being short-sightedly selfish for the supposed good of the nation (thanks, shallow voters!). We may reap a bitter harvest if better people do not keep him in check.

                  1. When I think selfish voters the first people I think about are unemployed factory workers and coal miners.

                    Your point, if there is one in which I can’t discern, doesn’t make a whole lot of sense

                    1. Unemployed factory workers and coal miners can be greedy, yes… If they use political power to “fence out” those who are willing to do the work for less money than they will accept. Don’t go pissing and moaning for high minimum wages, and having destructive riot-strikes, and then piss and moan some more, when your work gets out-sourced overseas, where people aren’t as greedy. Poor people can be greedy, too! You want more money?! Work more, produce more!

                      We are a nation of buyers as well as producers. Try to keep all the “good jobs for good residents of Just Say’n’s house”, trade with no-one, and see how rapidly that bites you in the behind! You will have to live with little more than what you can make with your bare hands and teeth, and rocks, mud, and wood. Donald lies to us about this!

                    2. Unemployed factory workers and coal miners can be greedy, yes… If they use political power to “fence out” those who are willing to do the work for less money than they will accept.

                      You misspelled “legally CAN accept”.

                    3. ‘You misspelled “legally CAN accept”.”

                      It’s so weird how the open borders crowd always forgets to include that caveat.

                      Regardless, this conversation began with me refuting Gillespie’s nonsense that working class people support Democrats. A contention that does not bear out in polls or voting results.

                      Another example of Nick Gillespie Gillespie’ing himself

                    4. It’s also weird how the MAGA crowd brings up poor unemployed factory workers who can actually move to another state and get another job, but are unwilling to, because they believe they are entitled to not just jobs but GOOD PAYING jobs, just for being them.

                      Immigrants are willing to uproot and take jobs, but these entitled louts think that the world owes them a living.

                    5. “It’s also weird how the MAGA crowd brings up poor unemployed factory workers who can actually move to another state and get another job, but are unwilling to, because they believe they are entitled to not just jobs but GOOD PAYING jobs, just for being them.”

                      While perhaps a fair characterization of some ‘working class’ people this sort of assertion does tend to indicate why they – and many other ‘working class’ people recognize that the Democrat party, while always about special interests, is not about looking out for their interests.

                      When the party of free shit looks you in the face and says ‘no soup for you’ it is rather obvious what they think of you.

                    6. You misspelled “legally CAN accept”.

                      Yeah man good point!!! Sad to say, we must all obey the collective hive, or risk paying the price…

                      I recall Cathy Gifford (WAAAY back when) “abusing” sweat-shop workers in Central America to make “Cathy Gifford” branded clothes. The do-gooders had a hissy fit about low wages, so the “sweat shop” workers got put out of jobs!!! Sweat shoppers were pissed that they had “been done good unto”.

                    7. We are talking about goings-on INSIDE the USA. Your non sequitur failed to do so.

                    8. Poor workers (some of them who support unions and some who don’t, some who support min-wage etc., and some who don’t) all suffer together under too much Government Almighty meddling. Taxes (tariffs) from Trump are NOT going to help, because we are all buyers as well as producers (well, at least many of us are the latter).

                      If I have just about no job skills, and want to get on the bottom rung of the ladder and learn to flip burgers, but I can only earn $10 per hour not the mandated $15 per hour, for my employer, so my employer can’t afford to give me a chance and a job… That’s a shame! Maybe I can make an under-the-table “gift” back to my boss, of $5 per hour, so the boss can afford to let me flip burgers? Can the boss trust me to keep this under my hat? He’ll be skinned alive if I rat him out!

                      Life in the Collectivist States of America does suck indeed…

                    9. Poor workers (some of them who support unions and some who don’t, some who support min-wage etc., and some who don’t) all suffer together under too much Government Almighty meddling. Taxes (tariffs) from Trump are NOT going to help, because we are all buyers as well as producers (well, at least many of us are the latter).

                      Cheap goods and no jobs isn’t exactly an ideal solution.

                      If I have just about no job skills, and want to get on the bottom rung of the ladder and learn to flip burgers, but I can only earn $10 per hour not the mandated $15 per hour, for my employer, so my employer can’t afford to give me a chance and a job… That’s a shame! Maybe I can make an under-the-table “gift” back to my boss, of $5 per hour, so the boss can afford to let me flip burgers? Can the boss trust me to keep this under my hat? He’ll be skinned alive if I rat him out!

                      Citizens are blocked from doing this.

                    10. “Citizens are blocked from doing this.”

                      THAT is where the real problem is — government eliminating options from those who consider the options acceptable. Thuggery, pure and simple.

                    11. Life in the Collectivist States of America does suck indeed…
                      Then go somewhere, where there isn’t any kind of “collective”.
                      The North or South poles might fit.
                      Or maybe Somalia.
                      Venezuela, soon.
                      But your constant whining about “the collective” – AKA democracy – is really tiresome.
                      And spare us the “we’re not a democracy, we’re a republic”, because those republican representatives are chosen democratically – BY THE COLLECTIVE.

              2. That’s true about Obama. Of course, it is also true that he never went into business for himself, never had to meet a payroll, never balanced a checkbook, in fact never took responsibility for anything even after being elected to the WH, not even his drone strikes in the Middle East. So let’s go a little easy on the “we need an adult in the Presidency”, shall we?

                1. Lefties cannot admit that their ideas suck.

                  Trumps plans are more popular.

          3. How many primaries did Trump get more than 50% of the vote in, as opposed to taking advantage of the fact that there were 18 other candidates splitting the vote? It’s kind of disingenuous to claim that the Republican party rallied around Trump during the primaries.

            1. IT is equally disengenious to say that a candidate who failed to get 50% in a huge field like that somehow wasn’t actually popular even though he won. He got the most votes, won the nomination, and then got 90% of the Republican party votes in the general election. The party certainly did rally around him, though its leadership didn’t.

              1. Hey, I like what he has done as president, but don’t distort the facts to make it seem like the party rallied behind him.
                He had two big “supporters” – the “open” primary demoncraps and the vast majority of the media – both of whom wanted him to win the primary because they thought him a sure loser to the only opposition he was going to face – Bernie was a stalking-horse.
                In the general, he got less of a percentage of the vote than Mitt Romney did. It is only because the other side was less popular, in those key states, that he won – or more accurately, HiLIARy lost.

          4. Jeb and the rest of the Bushes are not remotely fond of the “Rabble” that is the GOP base. Just not their kind of people, after all.

          5. Jeb was blue stocking to his core and we all knew it. In fact, his entire family is that way. The only difference between him, Bush 41, Barbara and Bush 43 is that they are better at pretending to be one with the common man. Jeb never bothered and never will. And he, like the others, and like Hillary, just couldn’t stand up to Trump’s heat. There wasn’t a fighter amongst them and that’s what conservative voters wanted: someone who brought bare knucks to a fight, not a word processor. I don’t know if the bloom is off the rose as far as 2020 is concerned, but most folks I know who voted for DT in 2016 are ready to do so again, especially in light of the “field” the Dems are considering

            1. And plenty of us who did not vote for Trump in 2016 (I voted for the LP ticket) are poised to vote for him in 2020. I thought there was no way Hillary would lose, and that even if she did, Trump would quickly implode and usher in Democrat domination for decades, with either outcome being essentially “game over” for our little experiment in constitutional republicanism.

              Never have I been so grateful to have been so wrong. To my great surprise, I have been pleasantly surprised by much of President Trump’s performance, while the Democrats, in an astounding feat of ineptitude, have exceeded themselves in becoming an absolute horror show of bad ideas and screeching emotionalism.

        2. Says the guy who called someone a retard a few comments up and lacks self-awareness to the point that he can’t even acknowledge that he openly hates all of the people who he imagines to be “coastal liberals” (as though that’s a small % of the US population).

          Here are some easy examples that even Breitbart readers can understand.

          You can acknowledge the vagary of politics but expect a President to at least be minimally respectful. No one forces Trump to attack private citizens on Twitter and you whining about people responding to his self-inflicted chaos is getting old. At least Reagan didn’t say patently offensive shit every day then whine about getting called out on it. Snowflake.

          You can hate when police murder people AND when people murder police.

          You can support working class people and still not believe that means we should go back to stupid crap like coal mining.(BTW do you seriously believe that only “Republicans” drive trucks and work in factories? Really? Apparently you believe in a state like Massachusetts there just must not be roads or restaurants or factories or anything, only Harvard and Boston College??)

          You can believe that the government is wasteful and we should pay less taxes without believing that your only recourse for that is to plot Civil War 2 and murder all those damn librulz..

          You can love America and disagree with your fellow American on the particulars of what America means to you as opposed to it being “America vs. communism”


          1. Maga!

      2. Since when is private character the same as public character? Admiral Nelson abdoned his wife and kids and took up with the wife of a British diplomat in Italy. Is that good character? Should he have been fired from the Navy for it?

        In contrast, often times what is considered “good character” is in the right circumstances someone’s downfall. George Bush for example was loyal to his friends and refused to attack his enemies with the same ferver they attacked him no matter how awful they were. As a result, he ended up letting Don Rumsfeld and others talking him into some enormous blunders and allowing his opponents to attack him in all kinds of untrue and unfair ways. History is full of people whose otherwise good character traits end up being their downfall just like it is full of people whose bad character traits like subborness or meanness ends up allowing them to do great service to country and humanity.

        So you can’t judge an office holder by their character. You judge them by their performance.

        1. I don’t want assholes to be assholes on my behalf. It is bad karma, and it will come back around to bite us in the ass. If not us, our children… Or maybe ourselves, in a future life. We just don’t know. I take it as an article of faith that one shouldn’t be assholes for one’s own selfish gain. Nor should we assign that job to someone else.

          Yes, there is justice. Sometimes we have to punish wrong-doers, to get karma… To make sure that what goes around, comes around. That may often outwardly look like revenge. But the MOTIVES matter in the long run. Revenge per se is a dangerous motive! From what I see of Trump, his greed, narcissism, and selfishness leaves the USA at risk. The guy who jumped from the 52nd floor was doing fine as he passed the 20th floor, you know… Time will tell…

          1. I don’t want assholes to be assholes on my behalf. It is bad karma,

            Then you are an irrational idiot who believes in cheap pop superstitions. That makes your opinion unworthy of rebuttal. Thanks for letting everyone know you can be safely ignored.

            1. So you don’t believe in “what comes around, goes around”? People do NOT look at you as an individual or as a nation, and see you acting like a selfish asshole, and treat you the same in return? They do NOT see you acting generously and kindly, and treat you the same way in return?

              “No good deed goes unpunished” may sadly be true at times, but it is NOT the general rule!

              People are NOT as stupid as you think they are! Smug one!

              1. We’ve been “Evil” for decades. Trump is doing nothing different. Bush was a super nice and friendly guy and the world HATED his guts. His lack of heart to fight critics made me lose all respect for him.

              2. The thing is, other than our wars, which were not started by Trump BTW… We’re NOT being evil, OR being assholes. Being assertive, but fair, does not make one an asshole.

                Our nation has basically gone out of its way to NEVER defend our own interests for decades now, outside of a few wars that were really decided internationally anyway, and then financed mostly on the backs of American tax payers.

                Demanding fair treatment does not make one an asshole, sorry. And anybody who gets pissed at somebody for demanding fair treatment, instead of allowing themselves to be treated like a doormat, can go outside and play hide and go fuck yourself.

        2. “History is full of people whose otherwise good character traits end up being their downfall”

          Exhibit A: Jimmy Carter

          1. Jimmy Carter is another southern democrat that failed as a president along with bill clinton.

          2. Yup. Being a nice guy is NOT always the right way to do things. Many of the best leaders in history were in fact actual assholes. I think the best ones should aspire to be tough, but fair. Because there is simply no argument against being like that that holds up to scrutiny.

      3. You do know that he never did grab anyone by the pussy, right? Or even say that he had?
        If you listen to what he said, it was that some women would let you do that, to have access to power and celebrity.
        As someone in that position, I think he would be able to proclaim that, without having actually done it.
        Not sure why anyone would keep up that false narrative, unless they were women, who know he was right.

    2. What has actually happened in the country that has been so bad under Trump? The deficit is high but it has been high forever. Either Trump is a grown up or the job really doesn’t require one.

      1. Totally un-needed trade wars, un-ethical and immoral treatment of illegal humans, continuation of the drug wars (Jeff Sessions fer Chrissakes!!!), pissing off the vast majority of our decent allies, and kissing up to despots, for starters. It will take many years for us to repair trade and diplomatic relations with the rest of the world.

        And making excuses for white-nationalist thugs at Charleston, too!

        1. The trade wars have not seem to affected the economy. So try again. And Trump’s immigration policy is no different than the country’s policy under a ton of other Presidents. And our allies needed pissed off.

          You disagree with Trump on trade and immigration. You don’t even disagree with him on our allies. You are just grasping at straws on that one.You can’t point to any ill effects of this. Perhaps your biggest problem with Trump is not that he isn’t a grown up but that he actually is and is forcing you to live the counter factual and question your closely held beliefs. That is Trump’s biggest sin among people like you and Nick. He is forcing you to confront facts you don’t like.

        2. pissing off the vast majority of our decent allies

          With decent allies like these, who needs enemies?

        3. Totally un-needed trade wars,

          That consist of allowing certain previously legislated tariffs go into effect. Congress left it that way for any administr’n to supsersede parts of.

          un-ethical and immoral treatment of illegal humans,

          Only marginally different from the tx they got before.

          continuation of the drug wars

          Such horror: continuing policies of a century’s duration that just about everybody but us support.

          (Jeff Sessions fer Chrissakes!!!),

          Not back-stabbing a guy without whose support Trump might not have been elected.

          pissing off the vast majority of our decent allies,

          Like we should care what those other bosses think?

          and kissing up to despots,


          It will take many years for us to repair trade and diplomatic relations with the rest of the world.

          No, it won’t.

          And making excuses for white-nationalist thugs at Charleston, too!

          Who had some pretty good excuses to begin w.

          Trump still excels the avg. POTUS since ever. Or head of state of countries generally.

        4. pissing off the vast majority of our decent allies

          Israel likes us a lot. Eastern Europe seems fond of us. Who are the “decent” allies we’re pissing off?

          And making excuses for white-nationalist thugs at Charleston, too!

          Except he did not do that.

          Stating that all people protesting against statue removal were not neo-nazis is hardly “making excuses”. Nor is noting that the neo-Nazis and antifa were equally terrible doing so.

        5. But what is actually different, because of Trump? Other than a meaningfully lower corporate tax rate, I cannot really think of anything significant. The ‘trade wars’ don’t seem to have had any impact. Border policy is unchanged from several previous administrations. Drug war continues unabated. Allies / enemies continue to play their chess game with the US. Nothing has really changed. Other than his words / tweets / bombastic language / idle threats / etc. If you set aside Trump’s words, and look at the real impact of his actions, not much to see. Even if you don’t credit his policies for the strong economy, at a minimum it seems clear that his policies have not harmed the economy. Honestly, if we just ignored him a bit, I think we all might be happier.

      2. What has actually happened in the country that has been so bad under Trump?

        Economic disaster (read any Palin’s Buttplug post to understand this).
        A draconian immigration policy that involves literally ripping children from their parents’ arms.
        Emboldened hate groups.
        Net Neutrality reversal.
        Turning the US into The Handmaid’s Tale by restricting reproductive rights.
        Two dangerous right-wing extremists on the Supreme Court.

        Should I keep going?

      3. If you say one goddamn word about the deficit under President Warren I will call you out. I will!

        1. If I saw a word about the deficit under President Warren, I wil be doing so on my flying pig. You really are comically stupid.

          1. President Potted Plant (D) then. Whatever. Like I give a shit.

            1. I doubt I will be posting on here in 2029, the next time that is a realistic possibility.

              1. Nobody likes Mike Pence. No way he’s winning in 2020.

        2. Who?

    3. What to that EnviroPig thread where all your posts disappeared and left mine hanging in mid-air? I thought maybe you’d gotten banned and forgotten.

      1. I am SQRLZombie, with the supernatural power to rise from the dead! Avast, ye the living!

  15. Carl Bernstein: Trump is Preparing to Declare Midterms ‘Illegitimate’ if Democrats Win

    The good news is Democrats are going to win the House and Senate in a #BlueTsunami. The bad news is Drumpf is going to complain like a sore loser when it happens, just like he would have in 2016 if Russia hadn’t hacked the election for him.

    Yeah, Mr. Yale Computer Expert, I think hating this evil regime is justified.

    1. I’m just glad that no one has been claiming that the 2016 election was illegitimate for the past two years. Bernstein must be in a real comfortable bubble

      1. False equivalence. The 2016 election actually was illegitimate for a few reasons:

        1. Russia hacked it.
        2. The Comey letter (see Nate Silver’s writing on its likely decisive impact).
        3. The candidate who got 3 million more votes was declared the “loser.”


        1. Any time a Democrat loses an election, the election was illegitimate. I’m old enough to remember how the 2000 election and the 2004 election were stolen

    2. Won’t that be fun. Not as fun as seeing Trump’s tax papers, but must-see TV nonetheless.

      1. Tony finds common cause with a parody account. Introspection did not follow

        1. Tony is a parody of himself. If he ever had a remotely introspective thought, he would self-annihilate like matter and anti-matter. Fortunately for Tony, he lacks the capacity for introspection.

  16. You know those people who when you ask them why the white, blue collar, middle class thinks that progressives hate them, and they quickly respond with a list of reasons why the white, blue collar, middle class should be hated? I have more problems with Trump’s polices than those people do.

    Most people who hate Trump don’t hate him for his policies. They really do hate him because the white, blue collar, middle class of the Midwest like him.

    1. They hate him because they hate his supporters. Nick is no different. The fact that Nick felt the reason to write and entire article denying this guy’s claims and is so vehement and one sided in doing so, shows how much it struck a nerve.

      I don’t think it is going out on much of a limb to say a large portion of the left and the media loath most of the country. That Nick can’t admit there is even some validity to that claim just shows how defensive he is and how right the author likely is.

    2. Exhibit A: Rev Arthur Kirkland

    3. I literally had a progtard person I know say straight up to me not long after the election, after I had proceeded to explain to her that if you compare Trump’s ACTUAL policy positions to Bill Clinton’s that they’re basically the same… And I quote: “It’s not Donald Trump that really worries me… It’s all the people that voted for him. All of the racists, and sexist people that he’s made feel like they can just say or do whatever they want again…” and so on.

      She basically just came out and said “I hate white people who aren’t part of the progressive hive mind!” because that’s all she really meant. She knows that most of those people aren’t actual racists, she just can’t stand blue collar white people who are conservative. That’s all any of them really mean.

      1. That was pretty poor wording on her part (all the people etc). But did you read her mind? She’s probably thinking about guys like the ones who were carrying tiki torches in Charlettsville.

        Honestly, I didn’t get a swastika painted on my property, ever, until after Trump was elected. Maybe it was a coincidence. I think racists and an sexists do feel more free to come out from under their rocks since Trump was elected. I don’t think that half the people who voted for Trump were racists and sexists, though. It was probably more like only 20%.

        1. Many of such acts of vandalism, when investigated by law enforcement, turn out to have been perpetrated by the alleged victim.

          I’m not saying that all “victims” of such despicable acts are pathological liars with a progressive ideological axe to grind, though.

          It’s probably only like 20%.

        2. I’ve known her for years. Not best friends, but well enough. She’s just one of the leftist hive mind people frankly. She obviously hates actual white nationalists the most… But she also has immense disdain for, saaay, a flannel shirt wearing, NRA supporting, welder from a small town too. Like legit DOES NOT LIKE such people. Pretty typical for urbanite lefties in my experience, and I have a LOT of experience living where I do.

          As far as things go, nothing anywhere NEAR 20% of the people that voted for Trump are rabid racists/sexists by any meaningful or legit definitions of the terms.

          If you’re using the current insane modern progressive definition of somebody being racist/sexist, then maybe. But accepting that women are physically inferior to men in almost all ways is just being able to accurately perceive reality… Not being “sexist” IMO. Being able to read crime statistics which show minorities DO commit the vast majority of crimes does not make one racist either. Wanting to enslave all black people again? THAT is racist. And there’s basically 0.1% of Trump supporters that think such things.

          As far as your house, as mentioned, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a lefty trying to get attention. After Trump was elected a rash of such incidents happened, because they wanted to bring attention to the “issue” of increased racial intolerance, and since it wasn’t materializing on its own… Well somebody had to do it!

  17. I disagree with the contention that politics is necessarily zero sum. It’s mostly competing visions of inefficiency.

    1. It is. And no ideology is perfect. Politics is about competing interests and issues and there is never a perfect answer. Nick is a shallow idiot who thinks style and ideology can somehow change that.

  18. Horse face. It seems Carly Fiorina took particular issue with that insult.

  19. I should add something.

    One of the reasons the progressives hate Trump so much is because they’ve always imagined themselves the champions of the working class.

    Yes, both things are true.

    There’s an old story about a conversation overheard between two guards at the entrance to Auschwitz. One guard says to the other, “Look at all these Jews. They’re so helpless!’ The other one replies, “Ja, and dangerous, too!”. How can they believe that those people are both helpless and dangerous?

    Easy. People hold conflicting beliefs all the time, and the progressives are excellent examples of that.

    We’re here to fight for the little guy!

    God, I hate those white, blue collar workers!

    Somewhere in there is an explanation for why communists often send the people they’re fighting for off to the gulag.

    1. You know what it’s like?

      It’s like the myth of the noble savage.

      They love the idea of a noble people suffering at the hands of capitalism.

      They hate real people in real life thinking for themselves and pursuing their own best interests.

      1. Sholznitzen put it best in a passage in his novel Cancer Ward. In describing a communist party official he says that the official love the People with a capital P but hated people with a lower case P. The idea of the People was a great thing to him. Actual people were all just low rent disgusting beings he found beneath him.

        1. Yes, history rhymes:

          The Russian radicals who belonged to Narodnaya Volya, couldn’t stand the peasants in whose name they were committing acts of terrorism and seeking to overthrow Czarist rule. They also couldn’t understand why the fly-over Russian of the 1870s did not want to jump on board their crusade.

        2. Like sarcasmic and his rants about Libertarians vs libertarians.

          Anarchists hiding among Libertarians are just wolfs in sheeps wool.

    2. The left has a huge problem with the working class. Why Nick feels the need to die on this hill defending the left from charges of elitism is a very good question. You would think a Libertarian would have no dog in this fight or at least not enough of an interest to feel the need to deny something that obvious in order to defend one of the sides Nick is forever claiming to not be on.

      1. Nick is an admitted anarchist.

      2. Again with “the left hates the working class.”

        As if a) “right wingers” are incapable of ascending higher than the working class and (b) MA, RI, CT, NY, CA, OR, etc. just must not have any middle class. It’s literally just millions of professors driving Bentleys, right?

        1. I drove x-country this year. I saw 100s of what I’m sure John believes to be the “only true Americans” in my travels. The need for the Johns of the world to proclaim their moral superiority with “who loves Jesus more” t-shirts and bumper stickers (whilst handwaving their true messiah paying hush $ to pornstars after cheating on his 3rd wife) was striking.

          For every assumption John thinks someone like me makes about Midwesterners, I bet he makes 4x as many about me because I’m coastal. He likely believes I’m some weak little soy boy that drives a beige SUV and went gluten free last year. It would blow his mind to know that even in “liberal” Northeast people like me still have and raise kids to have rules and respect (w’out needing the threat of “hell” to have authority).

          I’ve voted for candidates from 4 parties. I hold a CCW permit. I think the govt is wasteful and I also think DJT is a douche. An infantile, garden-variety car salesman-type “leader.” I think we have too many laws and too many officials. But in John’s THERE IS ONLY RED OR BLUE world, I must just be a college prof that hates America because I’m not a “Middle Class Midwesterner.” He can’t comprehend how anyone would dislike DJT and still love America. He can’t grasp that someone exists who thinks on an issue basis instead of a team basis.

          1. I think John, the same as most who overall accept Trump as not being LITERALLY HITLER, would think you’re an in betweener.

            The fact is that an overwhelming chunk of the population in the big cities on the coasts fit most of the stereotypes. I live in Seattle, and deal with these douche bags all the time. They are mostly NPCs! Just hive mind believers.

            Not to say that the same doesn’t exist on the right, it totally does too. The difference is, IMO, the hive mind on the left is a LOT more destructive to society than the hive mind folks on the right, who mostly believe in correct/decent things. They actually believe in the basic ideas America was founded on, whereas the modern progressive left is essentially fundamentally opposed to it all. So, it’s not entirely wrong to exclude Progs from being “true Americans” because they’re not.

            The reason the caricatures work is because they accurately describe a large number of people. You seem to lie somewhere in between. As many people do.

          2. “The need for the Johns of the world to proclaim their moral superiority with “who loves Jesus more” t-shirts and bumper stickers…”

            And this bothered you exactly why? Please don’t say it didn’t, because it clearly made an impression.

            Are there any people who engage in similar exhibitions of moral superiority where you come from?

            Maybe they don’t bother you as much because they represent where you chose to live, rather than where you chose to leave?

          3. I don’t think that John said that he has moral superiority over you, or anyone like you.

            He’s calling Nick out on typical “we’re not Republicans… SEE… we hate Trump” articles that have been written/published on this site for the past two years.

            John’s right in his criticism, too.

            On a side note I do agree with your criticism about Christians how overlook Trump’s treatment of women and act as if he’s some kind of great and pure individual because of team. I take no issue with anyone that thinks that Trump has been a very good president, but we (Christians) can’t just ignore his faults. If we do, we’re no different from the vast majority of Democrat voters.

    3. What’s so funny about that? Helpless in here, dangerous if let out.

      1. So dangerous “out” that they were easily rounded up and herded into cattle cars for a trip to the slaughterhouse?

        There’s such a thing as trying to be too cute.

    4. This is why I’m so disgusted by all the Leftists who claim that it’s impossible to be racist against white people. They are using the same mentality that the Nazis did: “How can we be persecuting the Jews? The Jews have all the power! They control the government, the media, the banks, big business! We’re ‘punching up’!”

      1. Exactly that. And that is what the communists told themselves when they were murdering people. Telling themselves that some group of people are a powerful enemy that is harming the world and therefore it is okay to murder them is what leftists do.

        1. People aren’t defending Trump because of TDS, they’re doing it because the accusations hurled against him are often retarded and without reason.

          Yet, Nick seems to equivocate this with TDS. I say, RUBBISH!

          Who gives a shit about Trump’s temperament anyway? As long as he does his damn job. Plenty of shit heads through recorded history have led countries and corporations. So I don’t see why this is such a fricken issue.

          1. Who gives a shit about his temperment? Shallow thinking morons like Nick. That is who. Anyone with half a brain doesn’t care and only cares about his performance.

            1. That’s why you were here bitching about Hillary’s policy positions exclusively and definitely never talked about anything like her temperament or looks or the sound of her voice.

              1. Yes, that’s exactly what we do.

                We only pile on about her wicked character and low moral fibre once we establish she stinks on policy.

                She’s a horrible crank and should go away. Shoo! Shoo!

              2. Hillary had policy positions?

            2. That’s much of the reason why I don’t like Trump. Though it’s a bit of a love-hate thing since I’m glad he fights back but he does so in such a stupid way that it is cringeworthy.
              Frankly, he was really close to the bottom of my list for the 2016 primaries. He is no ideological conservative or libertarian. Still, for the most part I’ve found his policy actions to be much more positive than negative. Of course that could be more of his cabinet’s influence but I’ll take whatever good we can get

              1. Surprising that a no-libertarian like Trump could get so many Libertarian-ish things done as president.

                According to some its 100% random.

                1. Yeah but he hasn’t really cut spending. Lowering taxes is almost pointless with out it. I also am not a huge fan of some of his trade barriers, but I do understand why he’s done what he’s done and China is an asshole that needs to be stood up to.

                  So Trump has been better than expected, and probably more libertarian than projected. It’s a glass half full type of thing I suppose.

          2. The funny part is Nick’s inability to accept basic reality.

            Trump is behaving in a manner consistent with the behaviors that got him elected. He didn’t become a crass, pompous windbag after the election. The American people knew exactly what they were supporting.

            And that’s the part that really stings, doesn’t it Nick?

            Why the fuck would Trump suddenly change tack mid race, when he’s ahead? The only person who would want to see that is someone who wanted to see him fail.

            Right Nick?

            Trump will change his behavior when his current behavior ceases to be effective.

            Until then, if you have half a mind to keep, you might want to accept reality.

    5. If the “oppressed” aren’t suffering enough, sometimes they need a little shove in order to make the narrative work.

      Eggs for the Utopian omelette, don’t you know.

  20. To wave away Trump’s relentless cheapening of discourse?calling a porn actress to whom his personal lawyer paid $130,000 in hush money horseface is so fucked up on so many levels?is not really any different than being disgusted that he eats his steak well-done and with ketchup. Trump’s m.o. is to make everything about himself.

    There really isn’t anything to “wave away” as you say because the discourse was already highly corrosive before Trump announced his candidacy. I don’t know if Nick is being dishonest, or if he’s completely forgotten about the 2012 election. You know, the one where Democrats were accusing Romney of tax fraud, killing a woman (albeit indirectly), saying Republicans would put blacks back in chains, accusing them of being prepared to kill old people, etc.

    Now, Trump does say some stupid things that I think he shouldn’t, and I disagree with him on trade heavily. However, it’s still hard to believe that the people who dislike Trump seem to have this weird idea that vulgarity is somehow worse than outright maliciousness.

    1. Gillespie is lying through his teeth, which he does a lot. He despises Trump, and this is obvious if you pay attention to the stuff he says on Twitter.

      To find out what the fugazis of Reason really think and believe, you have to pay attention to their Twitter feeds, because that’s where they’re unfettered and the mask often slips off.

      1. Gillespie doesn’t hate Trump nearly as much as he hates that what Trump is doing is working.

        It’s the same way a lot of people hated Obama, not so much because of Obama, but because of the way his media sycophants repeatedly protected him from his own malfeasance.

        1. The media hated when he was criticized by anyone that didn’t support him. That’s why they started using the “oh it’s because he’s black” defense after awhile.

          We can have open and respectful discussions with leftists any more, because they hate us all and classify us as alt-right Nazi’s.

          So whatever case Nick is trying to make is pointless for him, because they hate him just the same despite his espousing a watered down version of classical liberalism or libertarianism.

    2. What do you call it when a president takes children from their parents and puts them in concentration camps?

      1. If you are President Obama, you call that good policy.

        1. I take it the one thing you like about Obama was his immigration policy?

          1. Not totally but it could have been a lot worse. Absent DACA, he did a credible job of defending the borders and largely allowed CBP and ICE to do their jobs.

        2. Won’t be long Democrats are gonna take pride and claim Obama deported more people than Trump!

          The internal logic being something along the lines of “Trump is a racist dirt bag who puts kids in concentration camps because he hates immigration but Obama was better at it than him! fucko!”

        3. If youre FDR, youre called an icon.

      2. National socialist german workers party?

  21. So conservatives are infected with TDS, huh.

    Is that like how Robby keeps telling us conservative snowflakes are totes just as bad as progressives on campuses?

    1. They’re certainly paler and more likely to be found in three-piece suits no matter how unfashionable they are. And weird, greasy hair.

      But yeah, if they ever stopped whining about the left whining longer than 5 minutes they might actually have a point to make about something.

      1. lol.

        Tony: Why are you sending me to the gulags?
        Blue Cap: I don’t understand. It’s for your own good.
        Tony: How is it for my own good?
        BC: Because you speak against your own interests. And when you do that, you speak against the state
        Tony: I protest! How dare you take away my rights!
        BC: Here’s your NPC number. Take your protest to Cell block 3.

        /single snowflake gently lands on Tony’s nose.

        1. /single snowflake gently lands and melts on Tony’s nose. He looks back mournfully. Blue Cap waves happily with wide grin.

          1. Wait–does moving to the gulag cancel out my mortgage and credit card debts?

            1. Dude, they TAKE YOUR HOUSE and then squat in it.

              Look up kulaks.

              1. Will they feed the cats?

                1. Not if they’re proven to be productive and efficient.

            2. They will confiscate your house, but the debts will remain.

              And you’ll work off those debts or never leave the camp.

  22. Orange Man Bad. See funny Orange Man faces. HA HA HA

  23. I hate Trump absolutely, but I hate people who like Trump only conditionally. I’ll forgive them if they come back to the liberal fold, or at least come back to the traditional Democratic fold, embracing class warfare against bosses and hedge fund managers. But Trump, no forgiveness. I want to see him dragged in restraints from the Oval Office, locked away in Bedlam, spending his final days heavily medicated and confined in a strait jacket, muttering, screaming, and defecating all over himself in a rubber room, and in his few, fleeting lucid moments damning to hell everyone who ever suggested to him he could be President.

    1. muttering, screaming, and defecating all over himself

      So just like one of his rallies.

  24. Nick should explore the breed of people who don’t identify as conservative or are supporters of Trump but are turned off by all the TDS.

    I reckon it described most people who read Reason.

    1. “describes.”

      I leave change under the pillow every night hoping Reason brings one. Strangely, the change is gone in the morning but still no edit fairy.

    2. What a ridiculous attitude. Since when do people who read Reason required not to exaggerate their hatred of a powerful government official? And really, you’d have to be pretty fucking deranged to actually be deranged in your hatred of Trump, the most vulgar human in existence.

      1. “Come slowly, Tony
        Lips unused to thee.
        Bashful, sip thy jasmines,
        As the fainting bee,
        Reaching late his flower,
        Round her chamber hums,
        Counts his nectars?alights,
        And is lost in balms!”

      2. lolwut?

      3. Tony, in your haste, you let your TDS inform your hyperbole: Although Trump is vulgar, I can post a very, very long list of far more qualified candidates for the position of most vulgar human in existence.

        Starting with: William Jefferson Clinton and battle ux

    3. Or people who don’t necessarily like Trump as a person but vote for him because they feel he is the only candidate in politics who doesn’t hate them or will in any way look after their interests.

      Doing that and what you suggest would require Nick actually getting otu with an open mind and talking to people outside his buble and listening to them. And that is just not someting Nick does. Smug condescension is Nick’s move.

  25. Listener up there! what have you to confide to me?
    Look in my face while I snuff the sidle of evening,
    (Talk honestly, no one else hears you, and I stay only a minute longer.)

    Do I contradict myself?
    Very well then I contradict myself,
    (I am large, I contain multitudes.)

  26. ‘A Poem Called Trump’

    (for Tony)

    I am the best builder.
    Nobody builds walls better than me.

    I build the best product.

    Nobody can build a wall like Trump.
    I’ve always had people say, “Donald, you have the most beautiful hands.”
    I have the steadiest hands. I have a very good brain.

  27. Oh good heavens. It is completely consistent to hate Trump but not hate his supporters.

    This smear is just another variation of the schtick used by some Republicans to re-define “real American” as someone who supports right-wing politicians. It’s disgusting to question the patriotism of a fellow citizen just because that person votes a different way.

    And no, I don’t like Trump. I don’t dislike his supporters, as a group. How can I? They are all individuals with their own different and separate motivations for supporting him. Some of them support Trump for reasons that I can find understandable even if I disagree with them. Some of them support Trump for reasons that I find disgusting and intolerable (the white nationalists, for instance). I strongly dislike those supporters. But your typical guy living in Nebraska? No, of course not.

    1. But the thing is Jeff, tons of them DO hate his supporters. I live in the Peoples Republic Of Seattle, and you have NO IDEA how often I have to listen to white, upper middle class, prog retards go out of their way to talk about their disdain for white, working class, conservatives. Many of them really do think they’re the scum of the earth. I have, on numerous occasions, heard people say “We just have to wait for all these old conservative white men to die off!” the presumption being that then they can implement their socialist utopia or whatever…

      As far as things go, if somebody said somebody wasn’t a “Real American” for voting Democrat in 1976, or even 1996, I would say that was a bit much… But that was before the Democrats decided to officially become socialist lunatics. At least at the national level. I’m sure there are sane midwest Democrats running for local office still… But they’re not running the national party anymore.

      As far as the national party goes, anybody who supports the crap they’re talking about IS NOT a Real American. They stand for tons of horrible ideas, and stand against everything this nation was founded on. Just as Stalin could not have been a Real American with his views, so too these people do not count in my book. America was an idea, and those people DO NOT believe in that idea.

      1. “…and you have NO IDEA how often I have to listen to white, upper middle class, prog retards go out of their way to talk about their disdain for…”

        Yes, he does know. He’s simply not going to talk about it, because that’s not a problem.

        1. Indeed. He’s all for it!

  28. “Politics is mostly zero sum, meaning one side wins and the other loses and just has to eat it. ”

    Politics is negative sum, because at minimum there are greater transaction and opportunity costs of communications, decision making, and enforcement over individual choice.

  29. I give Trump credit when he calls Stormy ‘Horseface’: at least he’s not talking to her chest .

  30. The day after Trump was elected, a friend observed, “People who are flipping out over the way he acts have never lived in Queens.” The Yale dude is saying the same thing, two years later.

  31. Only in the mind of the mentally diminished is Donald Trump similar to a racist caricature of rural white people. Donald Trump is the very shining icon of the Limousine Liberal. That he is today in control of the republican party is a joke on everyone.

    1. I think the distinction Yale dude was making was really between upper class and lower class, not necessarily between urban and rural. There are truck drivers living in Queens, Trump’s home borough. People in Queens have a certain way of expressing themselves that can be a shock to people not from Queens. But it’s still urban and part of New York City. I have no idea if Queens trends D or R, but but I suspect the people there understand, and tolerate, his presentation the same way that people in rural areas do, much to the bug-eyed chagrin of elites from sea to shining sea.

      1. In short: He speaks his mind, bluntly, and isn’t afraid to use colorful language in doing so.

        This freaks out pretentious yuppies.

  32. Has CNN bought this domain?

    1. Close enought, the Kochs have some input.

      That and anarchists run this website.

  33. Trump’s a pretty good troll.

    Also kind of a boorish clown.

    The trade war sucks. Fuck that noise.

    But: two Supremes. Possibly a third. Imagine if it had instead been The Hag. That alone is worth it to me. Keeping The Hag away from power, telling The Hag to fuck right the fuck off. That’s really great.

    These are interesting times.

    1. “The trade war sucks. Fuck that noise.”

      And I tend to the open-borders side of the issue (but not that crowd headed north in Mexico), so that wall’s a stupid idea.
      But let’s face it; the best anyone hoped for was keeping the hag from appointing one more RBG, and we got plus DeVos, out of that Paris money hand-out, an end to that mandate, a second SC appointment, death of net price fixing, a reduction in regs and a major reduction in the growth of same, a SMOKIN’ economy, and two more years to add to that.
      I don’t like the personality, either, but ‘utopia ain’t an option’ as the saying goes; I’ll take it with a smile.
      And if he pisses off all those folks who were gonna ignore that hag’s baggage, I’m even happier…

      1. Tell you what. When we eliminate the welfare state and institute a universal citizenship/voter I.D. requirement, then we can talk about loosening the border.

        First things first.

  34. “he’s probably more like his predecessors than not.”

    Pretty much.

  35. Gillespie hates Trump for the very reason I love the guy. He beat Hillary.

  36. Pls pls, don’t go pissing and moaning for high minimum wages, and having destructive riot-strikes, and then piss and moan some more, when your work gets out-sourced overseas, where people aren’t as greedy.

    1. DJT is trying to prevent out-sourcing with tariffs.

  37. I read this Gelernter piece and was shocked. I hope he’s a really good computer scientist at Yale (I have no idea actually), of the sort that Noam Chomsky was a MIT PhD linguist who became a botch Leninist historian. Academic credentials shouldn’t be exploited beyond their range, and I struggle with this when topics touch upon personal expertise.

    1. You can add Ehrlich to that lot.

      1. Point taken, but there was no Jewish connection to my post. I have sensitivity on different issues when it comes to the exploitation of science, and my vitriol points in all kinds of different directions.

      2. And Krugman.

        Remember when he said there was going to be a global recession because Trump?

        That’s TDS in action right there.

        Or how about when it was forewarned a nuclear holocaust was imminent? Or that climate change was going to ‘insert catastrophe here’ because Trump denies it?

        Nick dislikes his policies. Fair enough. But dammit he’s done some pretty good things too.

        I just don’t understand the hysterics; especially framed around his boorish behaviour. Laugh but I’d rather him going to bat for my country looking to slug one out than Trudeau. Justin is like the pinch hitter batting .191 with a .202 OBP who has no eye at the plate.

        1. With those numbers, he’s like Kike Hernandez and Yasmani Grandal.


        2. Well, now you’ve crossed the line in ‘my’ thread. Krugman, the boring Keynesian, is not not deserving of any prize. However, I really believe Trump is lucky that he walked into an economic upturn. He’s not just boorish…he’s a nut, or maybe just senile. I love that he took a meeting with North Korea, but beyond that, his administration has been a waste of time. And, that’s the good news. Things could be much worse.

          1. Again with that ‘upturn’ or ‘expansion’ stuff.

            If there’s one thing that grates, it’s Obama somehow getting (taking) credit for this economy.

            1. I don’t give Obama or Trump credit for the good economic numbers. I actually blame Obama for the slow turnaround after 2008. If Obamacare had actually benefited more people, and not punished the rest, we could call that a punt. But clearly, nothing Trump has done has contributed to much positively, and he’s been awful with immigration, as his base electorate has demanded.

              1. Ah. On the economics. Still, he must have done something for it to have shot up like it did. That is, GDP and unemployment. The numbers are record breaking.

                1. But I agree and subscribe to the notion we give too much credit and assign too much blame to leaders for the economy.

                2. So you must have been one of the ones not paying attention, who still thinks unemployment went from 10% to 4% the moment Trump took office. Look at the facts: The economy has been improving under Trump more or less exactly as fast as it did under Obama.

                  1. LMAO!! Seriously? The main difference between this economy and the Obama economy is two fold First, growth. Obama tried to convince us that 2 % growth was ” the new norm” and we would never have an economy that grew at 3-4%. He was wrong. Second, his “low unemployment” was coupled with the lowest labor participation rate in US history. Only 62% of the population was working and his numbers were fudged because they did not include people whi simply stopped looking for work or were underemployed. This economy has low unemployment as well as 1.7 million unfilled jobs due to lack of workers. Wages are rising because of competition for employees and the manufacturing jobs Obama said would never return are coming back to US because lower corporate taxes makes it profitable to operate here. Obamas economy was smoke and mirrors. Trumps economy is real and growing. That is the difference.

            2. With the economy, the tax cuts and regulatory cuts have helped… But mostly it is just the sentiment. When you elect a crazy leftist that ran on doing a bunch of stuff that is horrible for business… It makes you be reserved about any expansion plans. With Trump they knew they weren’t going to be having anything bad coming down the pike, so everybody has gone full steam ahead.

              I think that is the main reason the economy has been doing so well.

          2. Please. He is a business man who understands how things work. Remember when he renegotiated the contract for the new Air Force One and saved taxpayers about 3 billion dollars? Go back and look at history. In 1960, the tax rate on the top 1% was 90% and the result was a stagnant economy. That was under Eisenhower, a Republican. Seems back then all those nasty wealthy people were paying their fair share like Democrats today love to whine about. First thing Kennedy did when he took office in 1961 is cut taxes and the exonomy took off. Sorry but Obama raised taxes which is why everything was slow to grow but Democrats have never cared as long as they have money to spend on programs to make more people dependent on government for survival

  38. I liked this article, but I was hoping for more mention of specific policies that you don’t like. I’m sure you’ve written about them elsewhere, though.

  39. “Politics is mostly zero sum”

    At it’s very best, politics is zero sum. It is typically negative sum: the winning side in a political conflict benefits, but less than the losing side loses. Friction loses can be quite significant, but they are often eclipsed by the economic distortions created by coercion.

  40. The Jacket has become more impressed with Twitter reactions than policy.

    I disavow him as a Rutgers grad.

  41. Dear all,

    If you will allow me to bring fourth a European perspective from the liberal centre right.

    Pretty much since the Republicans took over Congress in the first midterm of the Clinton presidency, I see gradually worsening symptoms of the Trump derangement syndrome that make Bush senior’s presidency seem like a paragon of halcyon moderation.

    Bill Clinton was a perverted psychopath. But it gets worse: Bush junior was a retarded war mongerer with little concern for human rights. Obama – an iconoclastic socialist who was not even a real American. And Trump, well, he is an agent provocateur par excellence that managed to dial up even an already disconcerting trend.

    This completely stifles policy making. Take abortion. In my country Sweden, we have free abortion but much lower abortion rates – because the left and the right explored the principles and trade-offs involved and put in place the checks, balances, prevention programmes, and social safety net that for the most part prevented the problem in the first place and offered legion options when it did. The same goes for gun control, charter schools, higher education, wealth redistribution, and licensing.

    This is why, in a country that vaunts itself the beacon of liberalism, we see no rational debate around free trade – and if any country in the world stands to benefit from opening up borders to goods and services, it certainly is the US.

  42. “From a classical liberal perspective, this is one of the main reasons that politics should be squeezed into as small a corner as possible, reserved for those few things that require forced consensus (courts, law enforcement, taxes, some roads and schools)”

    When the hell did schools get added to that list?

    1. Wondered if anyone else was going to catch that.

    2. I did. And just shrugged, because Nick is pretty awful about stuff. He seems to not only accept that in the real world we may have to make concessions on what kinds of things have socialized costs, but he seems to actually favor such things even in his hypothetical “perfect” world too.

  43. Politics is obsolete. It is the proverbial buggy whip.

    Gone is the need to have a representative of the government travel the countryside to ostensibly represent your simple choices.

    Politics morphed to a more destructive level in the 1970s when junk science was politicized and our democratic choices now include ideology, theocracy.

    Our choices today are complex and many and propaganda insidiously corrupts our decisions.

    We can eliminate the problem by voting online for all issues. We cannot vote science out, in favour of lies. This will be more important when minority’s from shithole countries become the majority.

    Why vote for a lying ideological politician when you can vote specifically for the details you want?

    1. Vote online? Seriously? Talk about setting up a system open to foriegn interference. Congrats perhaps the stupidest suggestion I have ever heard.

      1. Security

  44. ./ here is my problem with the “Resistance”, When the Democrats were joined by many members of what has become to be known as the Republican “Establishment” they collectively did not wait for a policy debate,, they along with Hillary, the MSM and what has become the New Anarchist left, first, Foremost and to this day they first dispute the election results, methodology, and thus its political and social reality. So maybe a third of the Republican “Party” has totally missed the first two years of what may be their last chance to affect public policy for this Country.
    Also they have stood back, far back from the Necessary repair of Obama’s foreign policies and destruction of our military.
    Finally though the Democrats as they always do, went Two Bridges too far, First with the Kavanaugh mess they woke up Little Mitch and Lindsy,, and I think that they now sees the political power of choosing the right side in this D.C. death match. Now with a re run of the “Refugee” swarm at the border they once again to recreate their Child separation hysteria.
    The border issue is of course the defining issue,, Chamber of Commerce Republicans need at this point to flood the Trump administration and establish policy around their goals of available cheep labor,, Trump offered much in the democrat rejected DACA deal so I refuse to believe that in Trump’s logic that there is not room for a multi faceted compromise.

  45. As I’ve said in other posts, it is 110% accurate to say that for a lot of people they DO in fact just hate Donald Trump because he is a regular, good old fashioned American.

    The people who hate and are ashamed about basically everything in American history really can’t stand people that love everything about America and our history.

    This of course doesn’t describe everyone, but it does describe many millions of people.

    As far as things go, it is perhaps one of the things I love most about Trump. The mere fact that he doesn’t feel the need to kneel, and grovel, and apologize about how horrible our country is at every possible opportunity, unlike saaay Obama… That is pretty damn awesome.

    Personally, I think all the people that hate America should just move away. If we’re sooo awful you can’t stand it, why not just move to your beloved, enlightened, socialist paradises like Canada or Europe? I’d bail out on America in a heart beat if some nation came up and became as awesome and libertarian leaning as the US used to be, so why don’t they put their money where there mouth is and move to places that are already like what they claim they want the US to be?

    1. Not everyone is so eager to bail to wherever the grass appears greener.

      Some people actually take off their rose coloured glasses, see the beast within, and choose to tough it out fighting the good fight to effect change for the better.

      When they tell the cowardly bailers about the beasts the hypocrites derogatorily suggest they should leave.

      See the beast.

      1. I’m not going anywhere. America is as good as it gets, so I’m making my stand here. If America falls to tyranny, there will be nowhere left to run anyway.

        But I still say these leftists are idiots for not leaving. People all originally moved to America because they liked the idea of the place… If people don’t like the idea of the place now, the logical choice is to go where you agree with the way the place is run.

        But I guess Leftists aren’t big on logic…

        1. You mean your idea of the place.

          1. Well, actually, they liked the STATED PURPOSE of America as a free country, with a small and non intrusive government, low taxes, individual liberties, gun rights, etc.

            All the TRADITIONAL American values. These are the things the leftists, and you, seem to hate. You cannot change the past. Those ARE the ideals of America. That some people decided they didn’t like them, and want to go a different direction, does not change the fact that THEY are the ones going AGAINST the ideas the country was founded on.

            It’s like founding a company and saying “We’re going to make the best socks in the history of the world!” and after being wildly successful for 200 years, some of the stock holders decide socks are simply the worst! They don’t want to make socks, they want to make dildos, because dildos are THE BEST!

            Well, if those people start talking about how the company was founded to make the worlds best dildos… It just ain’t so, so matter how much they declare it to be true. Not that there’s anything wrong with making dildos… But it’s a lie to say the company was founded 200 years earlier to make dildos, when it was clearly founded to make socks.

            Now if most of the shareholders want to continue to make socks, and tell the other faction “Why don’t you just go invest in a sex toy company instead, and leave us to making the worlds best socks? We like it the way it is… It makes a lot more sense on your part too…” are they wrong to say that? I think not.


    2. LOL, and in what way is a billionaire real estate mogul with international ties who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and has lived his life as a self-aggrandizing celebrity a “regular, good old fashioned American?” Is it his arrogance that you love so much? Is it the fact that he shows America’s worst side the reason that you think he’s “one of you?”

      1. He was born RICH… He wasn’t born CLASSY. LOL

        That’s basically what it comes down to. Lemme give you an example. I live in a thoroughly gentrified neighborhood in Seattle. A 3 bedroom on my block now runs about 1 million straight up. A 2300 Sqft 4 bedroom sold for 1.425 million.

        I own businesses. I make solid 6 figure money. My new next door neighbor LITERALLY won’t make eye contact with me… Because he’s a pretentious yuppie douche.

        I probably make as much money as he does, despite him being several years older than me. I will definitely make more money throughout my lifetime, because I actually know how business and making money works… He’s a chump employee. Yet HE thinks he’s better than me because I wear punk band t-shirts and don’t drive a Prius like his fat wife does. He’s a snob.

        Donald Trump is more like me. He’s rich, and he’s kind of a douche bag, but he’s not so smug or snobby. He’s more like a regular human being in his demeanor. The richest guy I ever knew well was worth about 100 million… One of the LEAST classy people I have ever known. Very down to earth. Being a regular guy does not mean not having money.

      2. Trump went to private boarding school (New York Military Academy because he had behavior problems and that’s where rich kids with behavior problems go). Then he went to Fordham University until his connections got him into Wharton at U. Penny (fancy Ivy League Business school). If he’s not elite I don’t know what is.

        1. Again, what does that have to do with ones mentality? Julius Casar was from an elite family, and got killed by other elites largely because reforms he was making benefited regular Romans, and hurt the elites…

          Being born into money doesn’t make one a stereotypical “elitist.” From some stuff I’ve read, it seems very obvious that Trump was never “accepted” by the smug, pompous, elitists in NYC because he was always too gruff. I think this just made him double down on not trying to impress them, and in fact ultimately to scorn THAT type of elitist.

          He’s not an intellectual… I think everybody, even his most rabid supporters, accept that. Those stereotypical smug, arrogant, my shit don’t stink, pseudo-intellectual elitists are what everybody means when they talk about “the elite,” not guys who like McDonald’s, have tacky taste in decor, don’t give a shit about fine art, etc BUT happen to have piles of money. Which is what DJT is.

    3. What they hate is someone who stands up to their tyranny. Leftists use the courts and executive branch to impose values that are rejected by Congress (aka the people). When anyone threatens this power to impose their will, they respond with anger and hate as we have seen for the last twonyears. It was the same when Reagan was in the WH. When he threatened the status quo suddenly he was portrayed as crazy, unstable and a threat to world peace. Sound familiar?

      1. Pretty much! They can’t stand to be challenged. It’s not just a disagreement with them, it’s heresy!

      2. You know there is a tiny chance that the Democrats might take the congress in the midterms. Will Congress still be aka the people then?

        1. If they do, they’ll certainly be doing what some of the people want.

          Frankly, I don’t care. I think democracy is a horrible thing. I don’t believe in universal suffrage, as it is an AWFUL idea. There’s a reason the Founders limited who could vote. Even in that context they further limited the democratic aspects of how our system worked.

          Democracy has always been a bad idea, and always will be. Having a few democratic flourishes in a republican system is okay… But the well structured ideas of the Founders have been ruined by changes since then. The senate no longer represents the state governments, and we let any moron over 18 vote. Bad news bears. If the system the Founders put in place still existed, or one that maintained the spirit of limiting voting to responsible and intelligent people through some other means, our nation would be infinitely better off. I am sure of that.

    4. Yes because naturally there are only two possible mindsets…agree 100% with every word Trump says, or hate America.

  46. The left wing doesn’t hate working class people only white working class people.

  47. The idea that liberals think Trump, a real estate billionaire born with a silver spoon in his mouth who is also a self-aggrandizing celebrity, is any sort of “typical American” is so absurd on its face that it just goes to show how clueless the Right is about the Left.

    1. Read my post above. Having money isn’t ALL there is to a person.

  48. The reason leftists, like Tony, hate Trump and conservatives is we think everyone should have a voice in how this country is run. We do not think anyone is more “qualified” to make decisions and beleive we are ALL free to live and do as we choose, not some group of politicians or bureaucrats in Dc. We believe in the government being limited as defined in the Constitution and it truly being one “of the people”. Elitist a d leftwing intellectuals love the ruling class because they helped create it and have worked to maintain its power. President Trump and all his supporters are a threat to that power which is why they hate him. It is and has always een about power and only power. He threatens theirs so they hate him.

    1. I hate you because you’re fucking stupid as fuck and you demand to control the government policies of the country I live in despite being a) fucking stupid as fuck and b) not being able to win democratic elections without cheating.

      1. Uhhh, so the Republicans control almost every government body in the country because of cheating huh… It’s not because they’re more popular everywhere in the country except a few blue bubbles in certain cities?


        1. You do get that the more popular the Stupid Party is, the worse it is for people?

          1. I disagree 110% there Tony.

            I would make MASSIVE changes to the GOP if I could magically call the tune… But the GOP is infinitely better than having the lunatics in the Democratic party running anything. I live in a big, hip, cool, progressive, coastal city… And it is a hell hole. Which is why I’ve finally decided to move. I will be moving to a nice Red part of the country, and it will be amazing.

      2. You just paraphrased his entire premise and repeated it back

  49. Trump is the opposite of Obama but I’m not sure that that’s really what got him elected–although it’s probably what *some* people like about him.

    Obama: cool, smooth, courteous to a fault, a class act…though not even *trying* to represent “The People” in any way.

    Trump: loud, orange, obnoxious, never accused of being a gentleman…claiming to represent “The People” on one or two less important issues, while never losing sight of his own personal bottom line.

    But from where I was sitting it appeared that how Trump beat the other Republicans, all 15 of them better qualified than he, was that he didn’t start asking voters for money until they’d all demonstrated inability to raise as much money as Trump was spending. That’s it, that’s all.

    1. People liked Trump because he had the balls to say a lot of stuff others were thinking… And because he just said what he thought, even when it was obvious it was going to outrage some people. Love him or hate him, he’s probably the most honest politician in generations! He beat all the other Republicans in the primary because they were a bunch of cucks. People are tired of wishy washy politicians who say what they think you want to hear, and then never follow through.

      1. You’re confusing “lacks basic adult conversation skills” with “honesty.” Seriously? Honesty?

        1. He could certainly be a better speaker, while saying the same outrageous things… But the fact that he just comes out and says shit that normal people think, and doesn’t even bother to sugar coat it… Even though he knows it will outrage people… That is kind of an honest way of going about things.

          It’s certainly more honest than saying the exact opposite of what your real opinion is, because opinion polling says it will be popular… Which is what most politicians on both sides do.

          He certainly lies, and stretches the truth, to make points… Like all politicians. But he also seems to honestly put forth his general opinions, AND actually tries to follow through on them. NOT typical of politicians nowadays.

    2. “courteous to a fault” ?? Yeah, that never happened

  50. Gelertner’s generalizations in that article were VERY apt.

    Nick Gillespie may be unique and special, but this doesn’t disprove the generalizations. It just means Nick is a naive intellectual libertarian who’s wrong on some issues. 🙂

  51. At least Trump doesn’t wear a ridiculous Fonzie jacket in public. That’s Reason enough to hate someone

    1. ^^ Dude jealous that he doesn’t have a Fonzie jacket and, even if he did, he’d look like a total dweeb in it.

  52. The real reason liberals hate Trump is because he beat their Anointed One and he has an R next to his name. The same insanity would still be emanating from the left if any other republican was sitting in the White House now. But the fact is that no other contender for the republican nomination had a snowball’s chance of in hell of overcoming the rigging of the election coverage by Clinton and her cronies, because Trump was and is the only one willing and able to hit back.

    1. Which is Gelertner’s point.

  53. I am going to have to cancel my Reason subscription due to the obvious infiltration of political establishment bots

    Any true libertarian would welcome a distributor like Trump.

    1. Problem is, you don’t have a Reason subscription. Secondly, you don’t even know what a libertarian is.

  54. The potential (perhaps inevitable) rematch of Trump and Hillary in the 2020 campaign will be epic, particularly if Donald’s blow-out re-election is followed in 2022 by Sarah Palin becoming a U.S. Senator from Alaska. When that happens the mainstream media may as well throw up its hands and slink away in defeat. It can’t destroy anyone anymore, certainly not as easily as it did Dan Quayle back in the day with a set up trick by Democrat activists that the media amplified and re-amplified like it would never, never, never do an Obama or Biden gaffe.

    The Democrat party reminds me of a desperate dare devil performer who has strapped fireworks to every inch of his body and plans to belly-flop dive off a 50 foot platform into a plastic wading pool full of 18 inches of water after the fireworks are ignited electronically.

    The problem is the pool has sprung a leak and by the time he lands there will only be three inches of water left.

  55. You have to remember that David Gelernter is from New York. So, maybe for him Trump does seem like a typical American.

    To the rest of us, Trump is annoying, obnoxious, and completely full of crap, which pretty much describes a large percentage of people from his part of the country.

    1. You just described all left-wingers…

  56. Gelernter’s piece is brilliant. It is brilliant because it calls out the modern day Left for what it is. Which libertarian journalists can’t comprehend. It isn’t about President Trump.

    The Left are the Enemy Within, as I’ve stated elsewhere.

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