A Pennsylvania Town Wants to Force an Amish Widow to Give Up Her Outhouse

A Pennsylvania town is trying to force an Amish widow to ignore her religious beliefs in the name of public utilities.



An Amish widow in Pennsylvania is at the center of a case pitting religious freedom against modern waste management.

Sugar Grove Township is attempting to force Iva H. Byler to pay monthly fines of $100 for refusing to hook up her home to the city's public sewer, as required by the state's Sewage Facilities Act. Byler currently uses an outhouse as her religious beliefs prevent her from using electricity, which would be required to connect to the public sewer. The town has argued that Byler has failed to satisfactorily show how a sewage connection would harm her religious liberties, and therefore must pay the fines.

In April 2017, a Warren County judge sided with Sugar Grove and ordered Byler to pay up. This decision was reversed on Friday by state Judge Patricia A. McCullough, who ruled that the state's religious freedom law protected Byler's right to maintain her unconnected outhouse.

In addition to Byler's religious freedom, McCullough also argued that Byler could not possibly pay the fines as she had no source of income and relied on support from her sons, who are carpenters.

The case is part of a larger fight between Sugar Grove Township and the Old Order Amish community. Earlier in the year, the Yoder family of Warren County was ordered to connect to the public sewer. The family, which is also Old Order, was forced to do so despite the need to use electricity and foot the cost in the process. Senior Staff Attorney Sara Rose of the American Civil Liberties Union said the decision "didn't consider the other ways that the government could have achieved its ends."

"What we have here is a situation, perhaps one of frustration, where the township has been unable to force the Old Order Amish to connect their homes to the sewer systems which requires an electric grinder pump," wrote Bernard Hessley, Byler's lawyer. Hessley said the Amish community was willing to move to another town or even to New York so that they could practice their religious beliefs.

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  1. Lousy sewer system if you need a grinder pump. Or should I say a crappy system.

    1. Its a rural system so I’m guessing that without making the solid waste into mush/paste there is not nearly enough water flowing through it to actually transport the waste.

      1. Not a compelling enough reason to violate someone’s religious liberty. Accommodation should be provided

        1. Certainly
          I was just thinking why a system would require something electric to work.

          Honestly, such a low population density place shouldn’t even have a sewer system to begin with.

          Septics (preferably) and outhouses are perfectly acceptable means of sewage handling for rural areas.

          1. I really was quite shocked to hear that such a place had sewers. There are areas of New York City that are too backwoods for sewers.

            1. Right

              For 10 years I lived in an unincorporated but still somewhat high density area of a Chicago suburb.

              We had aerobic septic and a well (always tested clean of ecoli and other nasties) on our small lot.

              When I bought the place I was actually surprised that it had those instead of actual water/sewer hookups.

            2. And those septic systems have been implicated in a recent study as being a major source of pollution.

              1. Begone, Septic skeptic!

          2. Depends on the septic system and the waste load. Septic systems have been shown to be a pretty major source of nitrogen and phosphorous pollution. Newer designs do a better job.

            That said, one little old lady and an outhouse isn’t a big deal.

            1. so you’re saying we shouldn’t give a shit about this?

      2. Usually it is due to the pressure of the main sewer line. The main sewer line is under pressure so you need a pump to overcome that pressure in order for your sewage to enter the main line. Could be also the length of the run or the fall (shit runs downhill w/o one).

      3. Which just shows that they shouldn’t be installing a sewer system. It’s most likely just a money grab by a politically connected contractor. It happens all the time in the sticks.

  2. What a shitty thing to do. Next they’ll take her corn cob.

  3. Sugar Grove Township has a shitty attitude.

  4. And the judge said, no poo poo jokes.

    1. It must be just what this gal needs.

  5. Zuri Davis is a nice addition to Reason.

    1. A black, female libertarian is a great thing to see as well. We need more diversity to help fight the appearance of being a fringe white guy movement.

      1. “After graduating from Florida Atlantic University at the age of 18”

        Race and sex are irrelevant, you bigot.

  6. Senior Staff Attorney Sara Rose of the American Civil Liberties Union said the decision “didn’t consider the other ways that the government could have achieved its ends.”

    The ACLU is such hot garbage. They sue Catholic hospitals to provide abortions and transgender surgery and then piggyback on religious liberty suits that other groups like the Beckett Fund are defending just so they pretend like they care about this stuff

    1. Apparently, the ACLU, at least on the federal level wants a law saying “that RFRA cannot be used to defeat protections against discrimination, to skirt wage and labor protections, to avoid compliance with laws protecting against child abuse, or to thwart access to health care guaranteed by law.”

      1. I think they should call it RFFCPOA – the Religious Freedom For Cool People Only Act.

        1. Or RFDATPWDLA – the Religious Freedom Doesn’t Apply to People We Don’t Like Act.

          1. Assuming that the right and the left are morally equivalent, I presume that all the stereotypical right-wingers will soon come up with their own RFDATPWDLA, so that RFRA would not protect

            -drug users (like the peyote Indians)

            -Convicted criminals (much of RFRA litigation is from prisoners)

            -Persons who violate the anti-mask laws (eg women in burkhas)

            -Draftees and armed-forces members who invoke religious reasons for not responding when their country calls

            -People who give stuff to bums on the street

            -other icky and unpatriotic people

    1. What if your religion requires you to be in business to make icky profits?

      1. You’re (no pun intended) SoL.

      2. What religions would that be? Quakers, Calvinists, Jews? Creflo Dollar?

        1. Profits are how Protestants know God likes them.

        2. Speaking as someone who used to be one, Mormons.

        3. oenidans, with their wonderful assortment of flatware?

      3. Is this going to be about Jews?

        1. What isn’t about the Jews?

            1. that’s just not kosher.

      4. My religion says that prostitution should be legal. 🙂

      5. Why stop there? Mr. Burns got his lawyer to declare hunting humans as part of his religion.

        1. I think there is a pretty clear line to be drawn at actually harming other people.

  7. Sewer systems require paying the a bill to the town. That’s all the local government cares about. People are taking a shit and the government isn’t getting paid. And it pisses them off.

    1. What kind of petty tyrant does it take to say “How dare you drop a dookie without paying me?” with a straight face?

      1. *gives a Vanna White presentation of the Village Fathers of Sugar Grove Township*

      2. It all started when people complained about cholera over a century ago.

    2. I had some suit come to my ass when some faggot narc’ed on me for building a shrine to stolen poops of one my femme-boy neighbors.

  8. It’s the Yoder family. It’s always the Yoders. Or the Millers. I think there’s only two Amish families, the Yoders and the Millers. I know what a miller does, I don’t even know how to yode.

    1. I have been taught how to “yode” by none other than Yoda Himself!!!

      For a small fee, grasshopper, I will teach you how to yode…

    2. The closely related religious group known as the Old Order Mennonites also have Brubakers and Stauffers, for
      example. Now here even the almost-all-knowing SQRSY One has to bow in humility, and admit that Yours Truly does NOT know how to Brubake, or to Stauff…

      1. You’ve probably done Stauffing before as the past tense is Stouffer.

        1. is that like bukkake?

      2. I think you Brubake by writing music in odd time signatures.

    3. Yoder is an anglicized spelling of Joder. Joder as a surname is usually derived from the placename Joder, a canton in Switzerland. Depending on which records you trust, Yoder/Joder as a name traces back to either 1260 or 400.

      By the way, Stoltzfus is a more common surname among the Amish than Yoder (though less common than Miller). Among the Pennsylvania Amish, 4 thru 10 respectively are Beiler, Schwartz, Troyer, Bontrager, King, Graber and Fisher. The Ohio Amish have a different distribution.

    4. Japanese yodeling. I can’t do it.

  9. Oppressive, meanspirited and–what is worse–entirely unnecessary. Voluntary, mutually beneficial arrangements between the diverse communities of a modern free, pluralist society could produce far better solutions.

  10. SQRLSY One to the rescue!!! There may be a technical solution!!!…..h_tech.htm for example will tell you that air pressure (and electrical storage batteries, solar collectors, etc.; but ESPECIALLY high-pressure air) is known as “Amish Electricity”.

    You name an electric tool (or blender even), and there will be an air-pressure-driven alternative!!! Some Amish have HUGE wood-working businesses… And all of the power tools are driven by internal combustion engines, or ditto, turned to high-pressure air.

    So slice and dice and chipper-shredder those turds in the wastewater, with an air-pressure tool, not an electrical tool, and the Amish God will NOT be torqued off any more!!!

    1. That solution still required spending a bunch of money to hook up to a public water system.

      Even better accomodating alternative.

      Composting toilets.
      No water or electric necessary
      Provide a benefit for the user (compost for the garden)
      The Amish already have everything they need to construct and maintain them.

      1. Have you been in the same house with a composting toilet? I think there’s little mystery why Amish and English alike in that position inevitably go with the outhouse instead.

        1. you can do them in outhouse form

    2. Different communities of Amish have different rules that they work out, of course. But I’m hardly surprised that these products have arisen.

      I did not know that these new factories were actually Amish-owned though. (I think the ones that make those ridiculous electric “fireplaces” are not.) I know that Amish, who contrary to people’s assumption for some reason (maybe they are thinking Shakers, who btw are extremely enthusiastic embracers of technology) have not traditionally been craftsmen, have been having to take up work in manufacturing as small-scale farming has become less financially viable. (Maybe they can go organic and start selling to the hipsters. Then again maybe they are too unwoke. I hear ugly rumors they have banned same-sex marriage and have very few undocumented people of color in their denomination.)

      1. …But I’d hear with these developments that there was for the first time in a long time (after all, they are thriving in numbers and have a great retention rate, with–as is usual with insular communities–the most conservative doing the best) some anxiety about disruption to the Amish way of life. I’d assume if the factories were Amish owned this wouldn’t be the case. Maybe they are just talking about the inequalities brought into the communities by having Amish megacapitalists and wage slaves, or about Amish transitioning to communities of ordinary houses with lawns and backyards instead of homesteads with barns.

        1. “Amish furniture” is a ginormous going concern or industry… Just Google it…

          About 20-ish (or more?) years ago there was a “Wall St. Journal” article interviewing an Amishman was was fantabulously rich, very successful at business, to include this kind of thing (also buying and selling wood, saw-houses and such). The Amish elders shut him down (or at least ragged on him badly) for being so un-humble as to “brag” to the Wall St. Journal. So now Amish Mega-Moguls keep their lips sealed…

          I would look for a link, but those BAAAAHSTAHDS at the Wall St. Journal make you PAY for the most trivial access!!!!

          1. “Saw-houses” = “lumber mills”; I could not think of the phrase, am getting old…

            They also often use “family labor units” of young teenagers, offspring of theirs, and Government Almighty often looks the other way… About “child labor”, as if a 16-year-old was really a “child”… In other places, young people are NOT allowed to work, so they go gang-banging instead!!!

            1. Great to know! Also:

              (1) The children may not be able to work, and may be ever more coddled at ever younger ages and even well into adulthood (what with their still-forming brains and all), but they can gangbang their way right to the polling booths, where the kids of DC will be after they are granted, later this summer, the right to vote for President in the 2020 election. This is the Democrats’ ace, which they can play at any time; and this prominent normalization will open the floodgates and give them the nerve to give themselves permission. Mark my word every blue state will by 2024 at latest; it will completely change the game and grant them a permanent structural advantage. They just have to dare–which they most certainly will after DC strikes the first blow.

              (2) You can thwart the BAAAAHSTAHDS by AAAAHCHIVING and viewing that page. I hope this doesn’t get around too fast, because I think it’s pretty easy to defeat it but most publications just don’t bother as it’s mostly redditors for now.

              1. Is your (1) point to indicate a “plan” (for lack of a better term) to reduce the voting age? I’m afraid your verbiage was somewhat convoluted and not especially clear.

                1. I am saying DC is planning to reduce its voting age this fall, which will allow children to select Presidential electors in 2020. And I am predicting the blue states will rapidly follow.

              2. How many kids age 14 to 18 will vote for more school funding and how many of them will vote to eliminate high school? The Democrats might be underestimating the power of their public sector teachers.

    3. That sounds like a scam, or at least a religious dodge. God doesn’t want me to use electricity, but my gas-powered margarita machine is just fine…

      1. God doesn’t want you connected to the grid. That’s the distinction. Self-reliance. If they were Korean they’d call it juche.

        However, regular deliveries of oil/gas for the generator in your barn is just fine.

        1. Yup, a dodge at best. Like when I was a kid and happened to be hanging out with a Jewish friend on Saturday, and his mom asked me to turn on the dishwasher.

          These people must imagine their gods like a Jewish/Amish lawyer.

          1. It’s a mater of jurisdiction. I’m not allowed to own a statue, but I don’t smash other people’s states. That reminds me, the one year anniversary of that whole Charlottesville thing is coming up.

    4. That’s not an accurate description of the Amish restrictions. Air-pressure-driven tools would be equally prohibited if for unnecessary purposes. Amish businesses are allowed to use tools – including electrical tools – when that is the necessary solution.

      In this case, neither electricity nor air-pressure are necessary. The old-fashioned outhouse seems to have worked just fine for the past few millennia.

      1. Hey y’all, I haz been thinkin’… How about that them thar AMISH TELEVISIONS?!?! AYE?!?!

        Internal combustion engine, solar collector, what have ye… As first source of energy… Interpose it to “Amish electricity” in the form of high-pressure air, first, depending on the dictates of the rural Elders and Ministers of the rural community first, to purify the source, further, if need be… AND THEN let the mechanical energies be transposed into electrical energies, locally, isolated, NOT on the grid… To power the local DC electrical energies to run a TV set! Wallah, we have… AMISH TELEVISION!!!!

        I can do the EE (Electrical Engineering) part… All we need is MARKETTING!!! HOW do we market “Amish Television” to the Amish, and WHO IS WITH ME??!?! WHO has a few $100K to spare to FUND this with me, and WHO has the legal expertise to get the 173,982 Government Almighty PERMITS to bless this all?!?!?

      2. I don’t think that’s accurate either. Hopefully one of our Amish commenters will chime in soon to accurately explain their beliefs to us.

        1. The above is a simplification. The core of their belief is humility. They avoid colored clothing and chromed cars because it is prideful. Unnecessary use of modern conveniences is also prideful and against how they believe God wants them to live. But that does not mean that all modern innovations are forbidden. True necessities have always been allowed.

          Bear in mind, however, that even things you and I consider necessities (like certain levels of medical care) are, in their minds, still conveniences.

          Also bear in mind that the “Amish” are not a monoculture. The Mennonite faith has a significant diversity of opinions on the appropriate expressions of humility. It goes all the way from ‘avoid everything made after 1870’ to ‘you can drive a car but buy one without any chrome’. The appropriate behaviors are often decided by individual pastors for their small communities.

  11. Your religious beliefs and practices are whatever you say they are. If there is any stricter standard, then there can be no religious freedom.

    1. I believe it’s already been established that the courts can decide if you’re a religion or not. Essentially, your religion needs a constituency that carries some weight.

      1. That’s what the RFRAs are supposed to guard *against,* by saying that you can’t arbitrarily step on some minority’s religious belief, even by accident, even if they don’t have influential lobbyists.

        1. That and to let you trip balls, man. I wonder what Elizabeth Warren sees in her visions.

        2. But the appeals court says Barnes’ belief in marijuana appears to be a personal one, not one rooted in religion. The court says there’s no requirement that he grow marijuana or donate it to the church.

          I’m no lawyer (or Doctor) but it seems here that the court determined that his religion lacked a… constituency.

          1. That’s interesting, thank you.

            1. Yeah man, if I worship the Church of the Holy Algebra, then Algebra is a RELIGIOUS matter, and it should ****NOT**** be able to be taught in the pubic schools!!!

              But somehow (IMAGINE this!!!), NO ONE gives ONE the slightest SHIT that I worship Algebra, exactly as I imagine it, and so, PROFANE versions of Algebra get RIGHT ON being taught in the pubic schools!!!

              There is NOT the slightest REAL respect paid to religious freedom, and I for one resemble it highly!!!!

              (The Cuntstitional provisions for “religious freedoms” has a clause written in invisible ink, it seems, that says, “Except if a Federal Judge has used his or her mind-reading powers, and has determined that yer religious beliefs are not “sincerely held” “).

        3. That’s what a constitutional republic is supposed to be about too, and how’s that working out for you?

      2. Not exactly. Courts may (and should) decide whether your stated religious beliefs are sincerely held or are mere pretext for avoiding some otherwise-applicable law. Courts may not evaluate your stated beliefs against those of any established church.

        In other words, you can state that your beliefs as a Christian require you to be a pacifist (for example, in order to claim conscientious objector status). It matters not a whit that almost all the established Christian churches not only allow but have actively supported war at one time or another. It doesn’t even matter what your own pastor says. It doesn’t even matter whether your own family agrees. Your beliefs and your interpretation of your religious obligations are yours alone.

        On the other hand, if your “deeply held” religious beliefs are suddenly discovered the day after you get your draft card, the courts have a right to be deeply skeptical.

        1. To your Michigan Marijuana case, the decision was that the court found his belief to be sincere but not actually connected to any religion including his own. So I guess you’re right that there is a minimum constituency. It must include at least one.

        2. What is nakedly arbitrary, of course, is the state deciding it will only excuse pacifists. If a religion has a doctrine about just war, however clearly stated and central to the practice it might be, but is not unconditionally opposed to violence, the government will not excuse you from any war it decides to compel you to fight in, no matter how much it clearly violates your faith’s deepest teachings.

        3. (The Cuntstitional provisions for “religious freedoms” has a clause written in invisible ink, it seems, that says, “Except if a Federal Judge has used his or her mind-reading powers, and has determined that yer religious beliefs are not “sincerely held” “).


          If they can read my mind… Then WHY do they imprison me for “forgetting” my cell phone password?!?!? If they can tell that I am forgetting my password DELIBERATELY, then WHY can’t they READ my password out of my mind?!?!?

          They are demonstrably, logically full of HORSE SHIT!!!!

          1. Having served as the investigating officer in a conscientious objector case during the First Gulf War, I can tell you that there is a lot more objectivity and a lot less mind-reading than you think. At the bottom, it’s the same assessment of evidence and determination of credibility that we expect juries to make thousands of times every day.

            1. OK, so I am a pacifist, but yesterday I got busted for starting a fight and beating someone up. Can you read my mind and see whether or not I really-really sincerely regret what I have done, and sincerely repent? Resolve strongly NEVER to do it again? Since I started a fight, am I no longer now allowed to be a “conscientious objector”, next time that the draft comes up? We are right, straight back at Government Almighty reading my mind and judging my soul! And having a jury do the mind-reading doesn’t clean up and make all pretty, the arrogance of Government Almighty!

              (Note that in this scenario, I’m not saying I should escape punishment for beating someone up, I am just saying that Government Almighty DOES effectively claim to mind-read sometimes, and it STINKS).

    2. As long as I they don’t come after my devotion to Star Trek, I’m fine.

      1. So you’re the one that starts the Star Trek Wars.

    3. So my religion considers the nearby mountain (owned by the Feds and managed by the Forest Service) sacred. And your religion considers snow boarding a holy sacrament, or at least the only reason to live. And the enviro-witch coven down the street considers wasting water a sacrilege. So the town and the Feds concoct a plan to use recycled effluent water (you know, the kind astronauts drink) to make snow on the mountain. Now I am upset–but are my religious rights violated?

      (all true, BTW, except for the named parties)

      1. The Earth recycles water all the time! You are drinking T-Rex jism and mastodon menstrual fluids. And the snow-boarding water is the same, and is recycled by the Earth to water the trees and the bunnies. So no one’s rights are violated in any way… Either that, or the Earth violates us all day, every day, making us all drink T-Rex jism and mastodon menstrual fluids!!!!

      2. San Francisco Peaks, anyone?

      3. I’d say your religious rights can’t include the right to control property that isn’t yours. Religious freedom means you are free to do things that are in your control. Not that you are free to do anything or force anyone else to do anything. If you consider that mountain sacred, you have the right to try to buy it, not the right to control it because you say so.
        As I see it, religious freedom needs to be part of a general freedom to act. Which is why we will never have it, because it would require a very libertarian approach to law and regulation.

        1. Good call, good distinction!

          I think I recall, leading up to the moon landings, some Native Americans (the Hopi maybe?) objected, because the moon is sacred to them! Good luck trying to control what everyone else does, in the name of your religion!

          Then again, if I buy that mountain, I am going to have to pay a TON of real estate taxes!!! Which can be used (has been used against Native Americans) to take away your property, and then…. GOOD LUCK with that!!!!

    4. New Jersey requires accommodations for “sincere beliefs” as well as religious beliefs so that you don’t need clergy to sign off on your deeply held convictions.

  12. Reports such as this demonstrate that a church for which gay marriage, abortion, and doobies are sacraments should be developed.

    If one can derive special privilege from a claim religion forbids use of electricity, why not a claim of religious objection to inaccessibility of gay marriage, marijuana, abortion, cocaine, ecstasy, contraception, or the like?

    Fight fire . . . er, fairy tales with fairy tales.

    1. On what planet do you think forgoing electricity is a special privilege?

      You really are a supreme asswipe.

      1. I’m sure there’s a dimension like that.
        Pretty sure.

      2. Refraining from comply with a generally applicable, reasonable law is the special privilege for which these snowflakes want a superstition-based eligibility.

        Get someone with an education to explain this to you, you bigoted rube.

        1. Its reasonable to demand people spend thousands of dollars to hook up to a water supply, install an expensive holding tank and pump system, and equip their house with electricity?

        2. No – what this is is proof that you are incapable of understanding the concept Leave people alone if they aren’t harming anyone

          That’s not really just libertarian. It’s more an indicator of whether you are a decent human being – or not.

          You are not.

    2. Let’s see…if you’re lost in the wilderness, would you rather have an Amish person or Kirkland to help you out?

      1. If your lost in the wilderness, neither the Reverend nor an Amish person will save your ass from being STEVE SMITH’ed.

      2. I don’t care if I’m in Times Square in Manhattan, I’d rather have the Amish person.

      3. I guess it comes down to: who would you feel less bad about eating?

        1. Ate a clown once.

          Tasted funny.

    3. The Union of Reform Judaism has 2 out of 3. Give them time, Rev.

  13. As I walk to the outhouse where I empty my bowels…

  14. I want to fuck a ginger Amish girl (boy), but that’s how almighty God tests his subjects.

    1. What cute Unicode art! It’s cute and I don’t even know what it is.

      1. Kaomoji, bro. (o^?^o)

    2. I also miss Crusty. Perhaps he is on an extended shaggathon with his van. Are there any proggie protests going on right now? Or any new arrests of female teachers?

  15. Why don’t you Rhomites talk about the Muslim terrorist that shot up all those people in Toronto? What are you Rhoemites covering up now? The Jew you love to hate *more so than the others) is back!

    “There’s no need to fear. Undezog is here.”

    1. This guy’s comments are like Godwin’s law on steroids.

      Anyway, how the heck are ya? How’s everything?

      1. Tell the Rothschilds thank you for the weather.

    2. We covered the Toronto attack a long time ago. How about news regarding circumcision and kosher meet in Europe?

    3. Underzog! Got any new piano playing videos?

  16. Mahwah, NJ wrote a law to prevent Orthodox Jews from building an eruv there, and, if I recall correctly, they also prosecuted members of the indigenous Ramapo tribe for living in tents.

  17. OT: I guess Ladies night is cancelled too.…..-speak-up/

    ” He got angry comments from people who said he was discriminating against the nonreligious.

    Someone passed along a form letter from the Freedom from Religion Foundation that told patrons to alert restaurant owners “to the illegality of the practice.”

    Jim Helton, the national field organizer for American Atheists, said legality is not always a clear-cut case. How the discounts are applied and other factors are key.

    “A lot of the answers in these cases are: It depends. In this case, it was illegal because it was only offered to churches,” Helton told WLWT-TV.

    Helton said the discount is different from a senior citizen discount or a military discount because religion or lack of religion are considered protected classes.”

    1. What about a church bulletin from the Ethical Culture society?

      1. Or the Episcopalians, if you want some ritual to go with your atheism.

        (If you’re offended, I wasn’t referring to *your* branch of the Episcopalians)

        1. I take heed of Almighty “BOB”.

        2. And if I were that easily offended I wouldn’t be here.

  18. When outhouses are outlawed, only outlaws will have outhouses.

  19. Town must offer a nonelectric solution. Stay with the existing outhouse, require a mini-septic field to be added to the outhouse, or allow a sewer hookup without an electric grinder. It’s called a drain sieve.

  20. “An Amish widow in Pennsylvania”

    How does “widow” relate to the story? Are we just trying to boost the feelz here?

  21. Ode to the Little Brown Shack Out Back, by Bobby Bare:

    Don’t let ’em tear that little brown building down,
    Don’t let ’em tear that little brown building down,
    Don’t let ’em tear that little brown building down,
    For there’s not another like it in the county or the town . . .

    1. Dang, beat me by a few seconds…

      1. But you provided the link! Thanks for bringing some culture to this board.

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