Brickbat: Sign This

Pavalache Stelian / Dreamstime.com

Minneapolis residents who were involuntarily sedated by EMTs with ketamine were also signed up without their consent for a study of the effects of the drug. These people, many of whom were not charged with a crime, were sedated at the direction of police. They awoke to find they'd been enrolled in the study.

Comments

[Adans smith]

I guess it beats a lead injection. This ",study ' I assume is fixed by a government grant. No conflict there.

[Adans smith]

Funded.

[Shirley Knott]

Lucky they still had both kidneys.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Don't drug me, bro.

[Longtobefree]

What a way to wake up on the Fourth of July.

I thought being drugged without your consent and taken away by force was human trafficking, not medical care.
Silly me,

[gaoxiaen]

That's how cops get their "dates".

[sharmota4zeb]

That's how psychiatrists get their "clients". Sex-workers are better in my opinion, because their clients tend to hire them voluntarially. The drug study makes this case unusual. A hospital normally limits itself to having patients sign forms that say they consent to treatment and promise to pay for it when the bill arrives. About 3 years ago, the staff at my local county hospital gave a patient his first involunary long term injection. Rutgers University will soon run a forensic science teaching program at the county hospital, because the county had so many suspicious deaths recently that the county employees could not keep up with the demand.

[Duke Powell]

I worked as a paramedic for 36 years and have administered Ketamine in the pre-hospital setting.

Ketamine is widely used as a quick, safe and effective way to sedate those in the throes of a mental health crisis or chemical intoxication where the patient is a danger to themselves or others. These are medical emergencies. These are patients and not criminal suspects.

The danger is sudden cardiac arrest due to continued and uncontrollable strenuous physical activity. There are well documented instances where people have died in such circumstances due to metabolic acidosis. It has now been shown, by medical studies, that death can be averted by prompt chemical sedation.

It is common to sedate those already restrained due to their continued struggles even when escape is hopeless. In fact it is a really good indication that sedation is needed.

The need for sedation of some patients, whether in the hospital or in the field is not controversial. In the pre-hospital setting the choices historically have been Haldol, Versed or a combination of the two. The addition of Ketamine over the past few years has given medical personnel an option that is quicker acting, shorter in duration of effect, and fewer serious side effects.

[Don't look at me.]

And just when I thought there was something I could be outraged about, you spoil the mood.

[sharmota4zeb]

In other words, when your rubber gloves are on, you can do what you want to a guy's body for his own good.

[Duke Powell]

Police and paramedics occasionally find people wildly out of control due to chemical intoxication (PCP, Methamphetamine, Cocaine or alcohol) or in the midst of a mental health crisis that generally is caused by a patient not taking their meds.

Out of control means OUT OF CONTROL ! They are a danger to themselves and/or others.

What would you have public safety agencies do? Leave them?

What they don't need is continued struggle. They need to be sedated. This is not a controversial treatment in the pre-hospital setting. The patient's well being may very well depend on it.

[SQRLSY One]

Hi Duke,
Agreed! You're talking to some out-of-balance (and / or sometimes way sarcastic) Libertarians here... But I think you're correct.

Sad to say, life is almost always ridiculously complicated. You say the problem is often "...caused by a patient not taking their meds." You are correct! Some bipolar patients enjoy the manic phase, and/or the delusions of grandeur. Others hate the sedation and weight-gain side effects.

And... Uggghhh!!!! Sometimes they also go crazy because they ARE taking their meds as prescribed by incompetent shrinks!!! See my comments not immediately below, but below that, about incompetent shrinks giving anti-depressants to bipolar patients...

[loveconstitution1789]

Police leave people to their maker all the time. In fact, in the USA police have zero obligation to assist people.

Everything should be videoed with police so these types of stories can be objectively evaluated.

[Rock Lobster]

"The need for sedation of some patients, whether in the hospital or in the field is not controversial."

True. However, lack of informed consent is.

[Duke Powell]

No it isn't.

Do I need informed consent to treat a patient in cardiac arrest?
Do I need informed consent to treat a confused hypoglicemic patient?

I don't need informed consent on the scene of a medical emergency.

[Duke Powell]

My last sentence in my reply above is wrong....

I don't need informed consent to treat patients who are disoriented and/or cannot be expected to reliable decision makers.

[loveconstitution1789]

A DNR patient needs no emergency medical care.

Forcing people to do things, even in a medical emergency, has been taken advantage by our government. If the person says 'no', leave them alone. Government is too scared to force video on EMTs as the reality of trauma scares the shit out of many people.

[Duke Powell]

I agree that DNR patients need to emergency medical care.

That's why I wonder why they, or their family, call EMS for emergency medical care.

We "force" people when it is obvious they cannot care for themselves. It happens multiple times, everyday, across this country.

If EMS were to leave those vulnerable patients to care for themselves, then we would be criminally liable.

[Duke Powell]

Sorry, the first sentence needs to read: I agree that DNR patients don't need emergency medical care.

My apologies.

[SQRLSY One]

FYI, Ketamine is effective for some people in reducing suicidal thoughts, and, unlike other drugs for this, it is quick-acting... Like, in 4 hours. So if you have an occasionally- suicidal loved one, you might want to have a stash on hand...

In conjunction with some mental illnesses (biploar maybe) it can cause or aggravate haklunications, though...

Be sure to check with your doctor, though, because doctors who have degrees, licenses, credentials, and diplomas on their walls... They know everything about everything!!!!

[SRoach]

My mom's a pharmacist, and the number of times I've heard about doctors prescribing something that she caught, whether it would have interacted poorly with one of the patients other medications, or where the doctor misplaced the decimal point when writing the prescription, should have you rethinking ever buying your medications without someone there to talk to as a backup to the docror's script, and should set you straight on the docs knowing everything.

But yes, talk to a doctor. They know more about more, just not everything.

[SQRLSY One]

Yes, I agree, I was being sarcastic as usual!

You MUST "own your own disease" and study up on side effects and drug interactions!!! Google the crap out of things!!! Because there are a LOT of incompetent quacks out there with degrees, licenses, credentials, and diplomas on their walls... Who THINK that they know everything about everything!!!!

But in reality they are often stupid... I had a close relative who has bipolar, and he knew it and the shrink knew it. "Google" bipolar and anti-depressants, or Google anti-depressants together with "mood stabilizers" (such as lithium), and The Google (who, unlike the doctors, DOES know it all!) will tell you NOT to mix these 2 drugs, or to give anti-depressants to bipolar people!!!

But that's exactly what the stupid shrink did... Predictable results? Mania, and almost 1 month in the mental hospital...

So if I am going to have to (with the help of Google) doctor myself anyway, WHY in the HELL is it that I MUST see these quacks for permission to get a few pills and some blood tests?!?!? Frickin' trolls under the bridge, is what they are...

[Rock Lobster]

Happy 4th of July, yank!

And welcome to the British Royal Navy.

[This Machine Chips Fascists]

Great... now we have to invade Canada again.

[loveconstitution1789]

This time, we'll just play Anne Murray records outside of their strongholds and they will go where the sweet sound is.

[loveconstitution1789]

So when you need police, they have can refuse to help you.

When police want to "help" you, you cannot refuse.

Seems about right for this Nanny and Police State that we have allowed to be the norm.

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