10 Killed at Texas High School. Explosive Devices Found at Campus.

According to law enforcement, most of the dead are students. Two suspects are in custody.

This post has been updated throughout.

Multiple people have died as a result of a school shooting Friday morning at Santa Fe High School near Houston, Texas.

Ten people have been killed in the shooting, and another ten have been wounded, including a school resource officer. The majority of the fatalities are reportedly students. CNN reports that one of those killed is a teacher. CBS reports that another officer was injured but not shot.

"There's multiple fatalities, anywhere between 8 to 10. The majority being students. One male is in custody. And then a second one, again, was a person of interest. Both are believed to be students here at the school" Sheriff on Santa Fe school shooting https://t.co/dCBeJu80DJ pic.twitter.com/psMS86MYKI

— CBS Evening News (@CBSEveningNews) May 18, 2018

The shooting suspect—identified by CBS as 17-year-old Dimitrios Pagourtzis—has been arrested, and a second person of interest has also been detained. Both, Harris County Sheriff Ed Gonzalez told reporters this morning, are students at the school.

A Facebook profile reportedly linked to Pagourtzis included images of a t-shirt sporting the words "Born To Kill" as well as a black duster featuring pins of an iron cross, hammer and sickle, and cthulhu.

Santa Fe High School Texas shooter allegedly Dimitrios 'Dimitri' Pagourtzis, per students. Facebook page deleted. YouTube account still up. Photos from Dimitrios Pagourtzis Facebook allegedly taken before page taken down - but a fake profile account may have popped up. Insignia pic.twitter.com/yDYjSR8BQA

— Paula Neal Mooney (@PAULANEALMOONEY) May 18, 2018

An Instragram account reportedly linked to Pagourtzis features multiple pictures of firearms.

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott said at a press conference that Pagourtzis left messages on his computer and cellphone saying he intended to commit the shooting and that he planned to kill himself afterward.

Abbot also said that Pagourtzis allegedly used two weapons, a shotgun and a .38 revolver, to commit the shooting. The guns belonged to Pagourtzis' father. It is not known if Pagourtzis was given the weapons or if he stole them.

Law enforcement has confirmed that explosive devices, including pipe bombs, molotov cocktails, and bombs fashioned from pressure cookers, have been found at and near the school's campus. Two residences where the explosive devices are suspected to have been assembled are being searched by law enforcement.

Christopher Ebdon/Flickr

According to witnesses, the shooting occurred between 7:30 and 8:00 a.m. in an art classroom. Witnesses also report a fire alarm being pulled during or right before the shooting.

"We're closely monitoring the situation. This has been going on too long. Too many years, too many decades," President Donald Trump said of the shooting at an event to tout a prison reform bill. His administration would do "everything in our power to keep weapons out of the hands of people" who pose a risk to themselves and others, he added.

As with any developing crime story, it is important to take any reports filtering out in these early hours with skepticism.

This post will be updated as more details emerge.

Comments

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Witnesses also report a fire alarm being pulled during or right before the shooting.

Well, that would certainly be a clever way of getting a large number of students out of the classroom and into the common areas.

[Trainer]

It got them out of the school and away from the shooter while he was busy in a classroom. Why anyone want to huddle and wait for someone to shoot them?

[$park? leftist poser]

Because that's what they're taught to do.

[Trainer]

Apparently someone had the good sense to do what they were taught. I heard witness accounts saying it was a teacher and another saying it was two boys who saw the gun as the shooter was walking down the hallway. Perhaps it was both but thank goodness someone did it.

[$park? leftist poser]

The official government, and thus public school, way to handle this is Run, Hide, Fight.

Run if it's safe to do so
Hide, aka shelter in place, if it's not safe to run
Fight if it can't be avoided

Pulling a fire alarm is recommended when running, unfortunately this also leads to packed hallways which are just a target rich environment.

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[Longtorso, Johnny]

I heard this one used a shotgun.

[Ron]

also heard there were explosives used but the media will be silent on that part

[DJK]

We need common sense explosives control!

[Mezzanine]

It's Ted Nugent's fault

[RodgerMitchell]

No, it's the fault of Hillary's Emails and anything Obama. Definitely not the fault of guns, because as everyone knows, guns don't kill people.

Repeat after me: "More guns, more guns, more guns . . .

[Shirley Knott]

Guns don't kill people ? they just remove agency so people are forced to kill.
Have I got that about right?

[jonnysage]

Guns don't kill people. Blood loss does. Ban blood loss!

[The Last American Hero]

Well there are no guns allowed in school, so I'm calling fake news right now.

[Wearenotperfect]

Where can I get one of those assault pens?

[bevis the lumberjack]

I live in the Houston area so this is wall-to-wall on the TV, obviously.

The shotgun report came from a TV interview with a girl who was in the art class that the shooter started shooting in. She also said she couldn't describe the shooter because she was pre-occupied with skedaddling, so grain of salt and all that.

I also went to high school near Houston and Santa Fe was in our district, so I played basketball against them at their place back in the day. Santa Fe tended to have a lot of "country" kids - back in school when we were less charitable, we called them rednecks. Unless that has substantially changed, there'll be a lot of kids in that school who have been around guns and can accurately tell the difference between a shotgun and a rifle and an AR-15, etc. So......

[Bluebonnet]

bevis the lumberjack: I graduated from Santa Fe. We would take your designation of "redneck" as a compliment. It is a good little town. It has been a long time since I've been "home" but my heart is there today.

[bvandyke]

didn't graduate from Santa Fe but went there up until High School - live about 5 miles away now. Redneck would be a compliment to most.

[bevis the lumberjack]

You did? Cool. The school I went to was a little bit closer to Houston, so we considered ourselves urbane by comparison. Honestly, anybody from within Houston would have said the same thing about us that we were saying about Santa Fe.

Besides, Hitchcock was also in that district, and you can imagine what it was like to go play there.........

[bvandyke]

Hitchcock wasn't nearly as bad as going to Ball High to play.

[Hank Phillips]

Doesn't Santa Fe mean sth like Good Force or Good Faith?

[Marshal]

Santa Fe tended to have a lot of "country" kids - back in school when we were less charitable, we called them rednecks.

Santa Fe has 12k residents, country kids is not surprising.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

"Police have not confirmed teports [sic] that the shooter used a shotgun."

If so that will be a non starter.

[JFree]

Nor will it be mentioned that the 'good guy with a gun' is in the hospital with a gunshot wound after attempting to engage.

[Hank Phillips]

The Texas channels brag about the First Responders? that every few minutes. But weren't there research papers on how overpopulation leads to the initiation of force?

[Chipper Jonze]

We need to ban sawed-off shotguns...oh wait

[Longtorso, Johnny]

Experts say the recent uptick in mass shootings is likely due to the amount of attention the attacks receive and the fixation on the people behind them

[loveconstitution1789]

That and school zones banning guns, apart from cops and the shooters.

[Tony]

Ah the good old days when we all carried guns to school. WTF?

[Juice]

Some people did.

[Juice]

http://www.dailyherald.com/art.....160109001/

http://historyapolis.com/blog/.....to-school/

[Tony]

Are these going to be about times when a major cause of death was birth?

[Juice]

True, it was in the hellscape of the 1970s.

[susancol]

Don't think that was the case in the 1930s and 40s and 50s . . . We have home movies of my dad riding his bike when he was about 10-12 years old, heading through the nice suburban ohio neighborhood with a shotgun across the handlebars (per Dad, he was going to shoot in the woods out of town after school).

[susancol]

Don't think that was the case in the 1930s and 40s and 50s . . . We have home movies of my dad riding his bike when he was about 10-12 years old, heading through the nice suburban ohio neighborhood with a shotgun across the handlebars (per Dad, he was going to shoot in the woods out of town after school).

[NoVaNick]

My high school had a riflery team until the early 1980s when it was axed because of budget cuts-damned Republicans and their tax cuts took the guns out of our school!

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

Yes, people brought their rifles to school and left them in their lockers. This was in the 80s.

[Idaho Bob]

We brought guns in the 80's as well. I remember the morning announcements: "please do not leave your guns in the window racks of your pickups. You will be a target to thieves. Thank you."

True story.

[Vince aut Morire]

I was on my HS Rifle and Pistol teams.

[ThomasD]

On the west coast of Florida in the early 80's there were plenty of guns in the high school parking lot - most in the back window rifle rack of a pickup truck, but some would be on the rear window deck of sedans as well. That's the legal way to transport one in Florida - either securely encased or openly displayed.

[FlameCCT]

It was quite common at my high school. We would bring them so we could go hunting after school.

[CE]

Time to stop covering the shooters' life stories. Just report their name at the arrest and again at the sentencing, and refer to them as the shooter for the rest of the media coverage.

[BestUsedCarSales]

Don't even report their name.

[GiveMeLibertyOrHandouts]

Agreed.

They should be referred to as coward or pussy.

"Today, a coward shot 8 students in Sante Fe, TX. The police are investigating why this pussy did this."

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

I agree, but I don't see how that could be enforced.

[ThomasD]

"I don't see how that could be enforced."

Unlike every lefty preferred speech code.

[Moo Cow]

Like what? And how are they enforced?

[Lawn Darts]

I've been advocating just renaming them all "Looser". "Santa Fe High Looser" should accompany every photo of the guy. The last thing any high school kid wants to be is a "Looser".

[The ghOst of mcgOo]

It's time to make the punishment fit the crime. All people found guilty of mass murder should be executed by vertical impalement. Since most of these cowards want people to know who they are, what better spectacle could there be. Might make some of these chicken shits think a bit before doing something so horrific. Time for humanity to get midevil again....

[Ron]

However in order to prevent conspiracies of the un-named must be named

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

Bailey was writing yesterday about how people seek to be immortalized through their writing. Well, shooting up a school is another way to be remembered. Sadly, it's a way for a total loser to be written into the history books, or at least wikipedia.

[John]

Yes. And that is why the media feeding frenzies over these things just makes them more likely to happen

[Zeb]

And nasty shootings make media frenzies more likely to happen. It's a vicious circle. I don't expect the media as a class will modify their behavior anymore than the alienated, murderous youth who do mass shootings.

[Hank Phillips]

Especially not names like Mohammed, Bin Ladin, Khoumeini, Pagourtzis, Amritsar, Robert Dear, Farook or Malik.

[Zeb]

Yeah, that would be great. It would also be great if people just didn't murder other people. Both occasional mass murders and sensational reporting on those murders and murderers are about as likely to stop happening.

[jonnysage]

I think it's important to understand what led someone to decide to kill a bunch of innocent people. If we could focus on that instead of the tool, we might be able to prevent it.

[esteve7]

Yes, naming the shooters and keeping them in the news 24x7 has been shown to cause more. Like when a high profile person commits suicide, there is an uptick in the suicide rate

[Nardz]

There is a direct correlation between the rise in frequency of school shootings and the number of rules and regulations applying to everyday life.
They will make more rules and regulations and there will be more shootings.
Treat people like animals that need to be herded and tamed, people will act like animals - some of whom rebel violently against the process of domestication.

[Ron]

the rules you speak of often force people into a corner leaving them no solution but violence. all the Bs of dealing with feelings and not resolving real issues only leaves people in conflict that often leaves a young person to the conclusion they only have one choice. If they, the students, only new that high school is only a temporary hell that once they have passed may move on.

[Rufus The Monocled]

+ 1 Falling Down.

Dude just wanted a burger.

[loveconstitution1789]

Great movie!

[Mezzanine]

It really was, it was like a highbrow thinking man's "Death Wish".

[Rhywun]

"Bus' up my store!"

Love that movie

[Bubba Jones]

Am I the bad guy?

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

You can probably tell a lot about someone's politics by whether they thought D-FENS was a "good" guy or not. As good as Douglas' performance was, when you strip away the comedic scenes from the trailer and watch it all the way through, it's really a shitty, manipulative piece of propaganda.

You've got a guy who finally snaps from the strain of mass society, taking out his frustration on all its dysfunctional aspects (including kicking the shit out of a neo-Nazi after making a big speech about the right to have diverse viewpoints without being shamed or punished for it), both serious and ridiculous, and what do we find out later? Surprise, normies! He's actually an abusive father and husband! Eat shit and smile because you don't have the right to criticize this increasingly anarcho-tyrannic Clown World we're building, and if you do that makes you as bad as him!

[ThomasD]

Has there actually been a rise in the frequency of school shootings?

What timeline?

[Quo Usque Tandem]

This did start to occur [Columbine] with the progression of cable news, and has accelerated with social media. Notoriety is the motivation behind these losers, and of course the desire to avenge themselves by taking innocent lives. Every time one occurs it the coverage serves to inspire the next.

[NoVaNick]

Notoriety is the motivation behind these losers

These shootings have become so common now that I don't think the shooter gets much notoriety out of it anymore. I can barely remember the names of most of them.

One thing they all seem to have in common is that they are socially awkward/isolated, some may be on the autism spectrum, and have recently undergone psychiatric treatment. I'm thinking meds might have something to do with it.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

This seems like a nice comforting theory for our brains, which seek to make some sense out of the chaos. What if there isn't a simple explanation? Meds probably contribute, but I don't think that is the sole cause. Has every single shooter been on meds?

[BYODB]

Notably, 'meds' do a little more than contribute to some of these cases. At least part of the time, Columbine in particular, it's because the kids are in transition between one anti-psychotic medication and another which is a particularly dangerous time for psychotic breaks.

Remember, though, that kids on anti-psychotics are in 'regular' school with all the other kids. Go figure.

[ThomasD]

Psychiatrists give kids anti-psychotic medications for many things, and not all of them involve any exhibited psychosis. One of diagnoses du-jour is ODD - oppositional defiant disorder.

I honestly shudder when I think how me and many of my friends would have been 'treated' in today's world.

[AD-RtR/OS!]

Why do they never shoot their psychiatrist?

[Jerryskids]

It doesn't take much to see an obvious connection that nobody wants to talk about between gun violence and TV cameras. Instead of banning folding stocks and pistol grips and medium-capacity magazines, let's try banning news reporting on this stuff and see if that has an effect.

Oh, sure, you're going to have some people whining about "Oh, the First Amendment, the First Amendment!" but those people obviously don't care about the children, they're bitter clingers hanging on to their outdated notions about the Constitution. The Founding Fathers, when they wrote about freedom of the press, never could have foreseen a future where high-speed electronic communication makes it possible for one bad person with bad intent to instantly reach millions of people at the same time and influence their thinking on a mass scale. We need a press adapted to today's society and today's needs, the Constitution is a living document meant to adapt to present-day cultural norms and it's clear a free press has outlived its usefulness in this day and age.

Who's with me on this? All the polls show a majority of Americans don't trust the media to one extent or another, isn't it time we allowed democracy to prevail and we put some checks on the freedom of the press? I'm not talking about banning them, of course, nobody's talking about banning the press, I'm just talking about reasonable common-sense press controls. For the children. Is that really too much to ask?

[Citizen X - #6]

Jerry, you normally do good satire, but this is a little too realistic.

[Rhywun]

I'm OK with banning FB and Instatwitter if that's what it takes.

[mad.casual]

The Founding Fathers, when they wrote about freedom of the press, never could have foreseen a future where high-speed electronic communication makes it possible for one bad person with bad intent to instantly reach millions of people at the same time and influence their thinking on a mass scale.
...
I'm not talking about banning them, of course, nobody's talking about banning the press, I'm just talking about reasonable common-sense press controls.

Right, you aren't saying people can't find out about mass shootings just that the news should only be distributed via paper pamphlet on horseback, which was in common use at the time.

[Citizen X - #6]

Smoke signals, carrier pigeons, and heliographs are also acceptable methods of transmission.

[Zeb]

Beautiful.

[BYODB]

That's gold, Jerry! Gold!

[Nardz]

+1 ovaltine vs risk management

[Sometimes a Great Notion]

I can't remember either but I'm normal (well not fixated by school shootings), I'm sure there are places on the interwebs that extoll the virtue of these people and it helps feed into others delusions of grandeur.

[Hank Phillips]

Do states containing more libertarian voters and less prohibitionism have less gun violence--including service weapon violence?

[mtrueman]

"Notoriety is the motivation behind these losers"

My sources tell me it's just boys wanting to have fun.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

I'm coming to believe it's actually a generational thing-- how kids are raised.

And before anyone thinks I'm blaming "millennials", I'm not. But what I do blame is that if you HAVE someone who's clinically crazy and violent and prone to this behavior, they're more likely to act on it.

Purely unscientific of course but it seems clear something's going on.

[$park? leftist poser]

I agree with you.

[Ron]

in the past, the 70's difficult students were removed from general population and sent to a school for their needs. Now they are all kept together. When you force people to be together who don't like each other, much like prison, you are only stoking flames of violence.

[Harvard]

Yeah. Once we collected the bat shit adults too and sent them to a "school for their needs". They were called mental hospitals. But we let that tribe out to be "socialized". Anyway, you're issue of forcing people to be together could be largely mitigated by.....vouchers, vouchers, vouchers. Or, "scholorships" as has been suggested. Safety and security would make a terrific selling point for a private school.

[mad.casual]

vouchers, vouchers, vouchers

So they can all get shot to death at a country music festival or a BLM rally? No thanks! /sarc

I don't disagree with the idea of vouchers. I just think care should be exercised so that safety and security is portrayed as a feature of the voucher program rather than the voucher program being portrayed as a solution to this problem.

[Harvard]

Privatization of education would free the individual school to concentrate on ANY problem they encountered, be it Singapore Math comprehension or security. If/when they deemed it was necessary to tighten the school with guards, arming staff, or whatever, they'd be free to do so. Parents disagree with armed staff? Take your refund and you and your brat can feel free to move on. My strong hunch is we'll find this shooter pud has been well known to staff and administration as some undesirable they were required to contend with in the past. Under privatization they could feel free to terminate shit birds like this, refund the current value of his chit, and move his ass down the road. Nobody else (private) will take him? He's back in a government school that must take him.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

There might be something to this-- or at least a thread of truth to it. You can't remove troubled students from class any more because it violates rights. You can't kick them out of school because that puts them in the... what is it... school-to-prison pipeline?

Now it seems we put them in the school-to-mass-shooting pipeline.

I dunno. I honestly don't have any answers.

[Trainer]

When you force people to do anything for 12 years of their lives, you are stoking the flames of violence, depression, oppositional defiant disorder etc.

[Shirley Knott]

So, change careers every 10 years, then?

[The Last American Hero]

What part of force was unclear?

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

I am starting to think there isn't a simple explanation for this. It is something that has become a cultural force that sort of feeds on itself and perpetuates itself, like other types of irrational behavior. The more it happens, the more normal and acceptable it becomes, as fucked up as that sounds.

[Qsl]

I've noted the younger generation does seem to be infatuated with celebrity for sake of celebrity with the democratization of mass media. I mean if kids are willing to swallow Tide pods for a little notoriety, I don't see school shootings as that much of a leap, especially with an under-developed brain.

And as numerous mass and serial killers get documentaries made about them (and with an audience that is either macabre or seeking to understand), what an easy means to immortalize yourself especially if you have little chance at recognition by other means.

I doubt if it is crazy in the traditional sense, but more a dark night of the soul. There's a lot of pain out there, and very little to address it except through numbing with medication or endless distractions. With the opioid epidemic, ever increasing teen suicide rates; it seems clear society is failing in a big way (I'd put the rise of Jordan Peterson in there too).

[AD-RtR/OS!]

Ban the Kardashians.

[Juice]

"Experts" say a lot of things and sometimes they're correct. This is one of those times.

[Pro Libertate]

I completely agree. The media--voluntarily, not by fiat--should not make these kids or any other mass killers into infamous celebrities. Report the news, yes, but why give them what they want?

We've had the guns all along, after all.

[Citizen X - #6]

What, and risk losing market share among the coveted 18-49 Burgeoning Serial Killer bracket?

[Hank Phillips]

We also had electricity. Eventually electricity and citizens with 2A rights became a threat to Socialism. Soviet propaganda from 1960 shrieked weather Cassandraism, then about 1962 dupes began interfering with reactors under construction. And unless you're willing to lay your life down to stop rights from existing you hardly qualify as Altrurian. Temperatures are decreasing, and violent crime is decreasing, so someone has to lie about thermometers and commit murder or the statistics won't look like what the Washington Post wants you to see. I believe the Ministry of Truth called the process "rectification."

[Trainer]

And psychotropic meds. I find it difficult to believe that someone could lose all sense of humanity just because they want to be on the news.

[$park? leftist poser]

Are you familiar with humans?

[Trainer]

Very. And I still stand by my statement.

[Zeb]

I find it difficult to believe that someone could lose all sense of humanity just because they want to be on the news.

I don't think it's ever just because they want to be on the news. I doubt it's even primarily because of that in any of these cases. I think they feel like the world is so horrible that it doesn't deserve to exist and they are going to make a statement that shows how little of a fuck they give.

[loveconstitution1789]

Notice how more police are trying to actually stop shooters in progress recently?

I guess not every police officer at these shootings are set for retirement yet.

[Trainer]

Texas!

[CE]

8 to 10? How can a fatality count be an estimate? Shouldn't they report only confirmed fatalities?

[Citizen X - #6]

What, and risk getting scooped by another news outlet?

[The Last American Hero]

I blame Common Core math.

[$park? leftist poser]

I would like to be the first to propose a ban on psychotic students.

[Harvard]

vouchers, vouchers, vouchers

[loveconstitution1789]

Boy, these kids really want avoid changing the Constitution and get guns banned via knee-jerk unconstitutional gun bans.

Super lazy Gen Zers.

[Ken Shultz]

"As with any developing crime story, it is important to take any reports filtering out in these early hours with skepticism."

Will the left wait for the facts to be confirmed before they start calling to repeal the Second Amendment?

[Ken Shultz]

In all seriousness, I think the facts are probably only important to utilitarians--the posture of which is naturally opposed to Second Amendment freedoms.

For those of us who prefer freedom for qualitative reasons, why should we wait for irrelevant facts to be confirmed?

Regardless of whom, why, or how these firearms were obtained or used, I support the right for individuals to bear arms anyway.

Deal with it.

[Leo Kovalensky II]

Yes, every freedom in life comes with a certain risk attached. Freedom or speech means that the Klan exists. Freedom of religion means that cults will continue to bilk people out of their money. The right to bear arms means that necessarily someone will abuse their right to have a gun.

I'd rather live in a free society where these things exist, than a society where the rights don't.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

[Tony]

So why can't I have absolute freedom to come into your house and rummage through your drawers? Stop restricting my natural rights!

Oh, this is all about what you personally want from society, not any cogent distinctions between liberties.

[Leo Kovalensky II]

Property rights. Are you even trying anymore?

[Citizen X - #6]

Tony doesn't try anything unless you buy him a couple of drinks first.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

Tony must be the snarkiest, bitchiest lover ever. I would love to see a love session between Tony and Mikey, after Mikey comes out of the closet. Can you imagine that?

[$park? leftist poser]

You know the dipshit would make Tony wear the Dave Wiegel mask that he made out of popsicle sticks and yarn.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

You can... see what happens when you do.

[gormadoc]

You do. He has the freedom to shoot you for it.

[Freddy the Jerk]

You spent at least four years at a university pursuing a degree in Philosophy and yet you're still able to barf out that comment??? You truly are a special kind of idiot.

(Methinks "useful idiot" might be an apropos appellation.)

[Mr. Gus]

Four semesters. We dropped out midway through fall of junior year.

[Hank Phillips]

Observe how looter collectivism affects the brain's ability to distinguish simple concepts like "your" and "my"... These berserker kids, like Tony, Trump, Hillary and Beauregard, have trouble with that and with concepts like "initiation of force" as opposed to "non-aggression."

[loveconstitution1789]

+1 Ken.

[Alcibiades]

+ 2 Ken

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

+3 Ken

[cunt joke]

[AlmightyJB]

+4 finger Ken.

[Shirley Knott]

Then you find out that 'fist' can be a verb.

[Citizen X - #6]

Like a buddy of mine always said: if you can fit one finger, that's fine, two is great, three is suspect, four is really sketchy, but all five is a whole different ball game.

[DJK]

Why are the facts naturally opposed to Second Amendment freedoms? Significantly more people use guns defensively to stop crime than use them offensively to commit crime. Even the utilitarian argument for gun control in the US fails.

[Ken Shultz]

I refuse to get bogged down by or trapped in irrelevant arguments.

My respect for other people's rights is not contingent on efficacy.

IF IF IF slavery were the economic system that provided the highest standard of living for the most people, I would oppose it anyway because I have a qualitative preference for freedom and justice.

IF IF IF depriving child molesters, murders, arsonists, and Nickleback of counsel, a jury trial, the right not to be made to testify against themselves, and the right to be free of cruel and unusual punishment led to a safer society for innocent children and puppy dogs everywhere, that wouldn't make any difference to me--because I have a qualitative preference for freedom and justice.

[DJK]

The arguments are relevant to the extent that they shape actual policy decisions, which they clearly do.

[Ken Shultz]

The problem with utilitarianism has always been, is, and always will be that it is incapable of accounting for people's qualitative preferences for things like freedom and justice. Unfortunately for utilitarians, those qualitative preferences are among the most important considerations. If they can't input a qualitative consideration into their spreadsheets without triggering an input error, then why would I lend support to making decisions about freedom and justice on that basis.

I will not waste breath talking about statistics that don't matter anyway--when I support the ethical and qualitative arguments that keep people free? Would you support violating the constitutional rights of people who have done nothing wrong if the statistics changed in the future? If the answer is no, I suggest you stop digging a hole with those statistics right now--someday, the gun grabbers are going to bury us in it.

Once they have tricked you into arguing on their terms, they are half way home. It is unethical and unjust to violate the rights of individuals who have done nothing wrong--regardless of what the statistics say. Concede that the statistics are the most important factor, and we're done.

[DJK]

I agree with you re: the problems of utilitarianism. However, ignoring utilitarian arguments in search of argumentative purity is a mistake. We live in a society where the number of voters who agree with you matters. Most people who think about such things take a utilitarian approach. Railing against utilitarianism will do nothing to convince them of your preferred policy goal. Providing a utilitarian argument just might. If you want to see actual progress toward your preferred policy goal, you need to convince other people. You do that by making arguments in every manner possible, including making the utilitarian argument. Adherence to ideological purity (of an ideology that most people don't agree with) will only lead to continuous losses on the policy front.

[Cyto]

No true libertarian would espouse such utilitarian compromises...

[DJK]

I think you're being sarcastic, but.... There are plenty of libertarians who would. This quest for ideological purity is part of the reason the libertarian movement isn't widely embraced.

[Hank Phillips]

Yes and no. The Prohibition Party supported Comstock laws, the communist manifesto income tax and the prohibition amendment with Mohammedan ideological purity. People respected their integrity and let them have their way till it wrecked the economy. But they also used every argument and infiltration tactic to weaken opposition, and their spoiler votes packed law-changing leverage. Libertarians can be consistent like Sarwark, argue persuasively like Sullum, and change bad laws like Hospers & Nathan without the craven whoring after the approval of looters.

[ThomasD]

"Regardless of whom, why, or how these firearms were obtained or used, I support the right for individuals to bear arms anyway."

Well said.

[AD-RtR/OS!]

That's on Speed-Loop.

[AD-RtR/OS!]

That's on Speed-Loop.

[Ron]

BIG question for the media which will be more important to cover? their hatred of guns or their love for the royal wedding, can they do both. As some have said time for the popcorn.

[$park? leftist poser]

Are you kidding? Media outlets love pivoting from happy to tragic and back again.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

That likely contributes to bipolar disorder, no?

[Citizen X - #6]

The unbearable lightness of being, man.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

I liked the scene with the two chicks and the camera. But then who wouldn't?

[Citizen X - #6]

I'm more referring to the chapter of the book dedicated to the question of whether God shits, but that scene was pretty good.

[$park? leftist poser]

As long as there's a story about cute puppies or kitties at the end, it's all good.

[The Last American Hero]

It will be spun as a joyous occasion, to distract us from the recent tragedy suffered at home.

[Billy Bones]

*CBS reports that another officer was injured, but not shot.*

He sprained his ankle while trying to run away.

[bevis the lumberjack]

The cop was shot and is currently in surgery at a hospital in Galveston. He "suffered substantial blood loss". CBS appears to have been wrong.

[SIV]

TRENCHCOAT MAFIA

[Rufus The Monocled]

Jesus. Again?!

RIP to the dead.

Fricken tragic.

[loveconstitution1789]

Its tragic but I am sure heart disease killed more people today.

[$park? leftist poser]

You should immediately go point this fact out to the parents of the dead students. I'm sure it will make them feel better.

[Pro Libertate]

I'm so, so glad we can homeschool.

[Freddy the Jerk]

Ditto. My kids are currently upstairs studying ancient shipbuilding techniques (in their PJs, natch) while the younger one is simultaneously working on a building a tiny grappling hook launcher. None of that prison-educational complex nonsense.

[Pro Libertate]

Triremes?

[Freddy the Jerk]

Last I looked they were looking at older times, specifically ligature construction.

[Pro Libertate]

Start with a dug-out and move up from there.

[Trainer]

Same here. My kids were completely unschooled and as adults are doing very well, thank you, and have never had to ask, "do you want fried with this?" That particular child who the teacher union official claimed would be saying that is now in school for a masters degree in theatre. What the union rep doesn't understand is that the "do you want fries" jobs were created and filled with public school kids.

http://www.houstonpress.com/ne.....er-6586057

[mad.casual]

That particular child who the teacher union official claimed would be saying that is now in school for a masters degree in theatre. What the union rep doesn't understand is that the "do you want fries" jobs were created and filled with public school kids.

Masters in theater? So, technically hasn't graduated from the extended public education program and is very much in a peer group that says "Can I interest you in a scone?" instead of "Do you want fries?". The kid may be bright, but you've provided scant evidence that the egg has successfully hatched.

[Zeb]

As long as the degree isn't in acting, he probably has a chance. Theater is big business in the right places.

[Pro Libertate]

Or education.

[Trainer]

Except that he has been making a living in entertainment now (he started at the age of 10) and is going to school so that he can also teach. He is also a licensed peace officer.

[Cyto]

How did you get him started in the business? I've got one with aptitude and motivation but parents who haven't got a clue.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

I'm so, so glad we can homeschool.

Seconded. More half-educated, backward, superstitious, socially inept, backwater goobers my children and grandchildren get to compete with economically.

May I suggest sending them to Patrick Henry, Oral Roberts, or Bob Jones after you run out of Family Research Council homeschooling outlines on why evolution is "just a theory?"

Carry on, anti-social clingers.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Carry on, ill-educated soyboys.

[Paloma]

The Rev is whistling in the dark about his retard kids, hoping competition isn't too tough because "goobers".

[Pro Libertate]

Um, no? My daughter is learning science, including evolution, among other things.

That was a rude and ignorant remark.

[loveconstitution1789]

I will wait some period of time. I am not the asshole that you are.

I am sure gun grabbers will waste no time letting this tragedy go to waste.

[$park? leftist poser]

I will wait some period of time

"Like, two hours, three tops."

I am not the asshole that you are.

"Nobody is a greater asshole than I am."

I am sure gun grabbers will waste no time letting this tragedy go to waste.

"And if we cut them off at the pass, everyone will bow to our logical mightiness."

/signed loveconstituion1789

[TuIpa]

No wonder you're such a miserable fuck with a miserable shitty job and go nowhere life.

I'm honestly surprised you haven't eaten a shotgun yourself.

[Mr. Gus]

I prefer the ones with peanut butter filling, myself, but maybe you're a marshmallow guy.

[TuIpa]

Stop trying so hard, you could have found an opening that didn't sound stupid fairly easily.

[Mr. Gus]

Holding out for caramel, eh?

[Citizen X - #6]

The only way to maintain a rep as a logical person is to manifest that logic as straight-up callousness in times of tragedy. It is known.

[TuIpa]

Truth hurts bruh. It's not like waiting will change anything.

[Rufus The Monocled]

Logically perhaps but compassionately I'll pass.

[Juice]

The shooter?a male whose name and age has not been released

Don't do it! Keep him anonymous. Just call him the shooter.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

Pathetic fucking loser sounds better.

[Citizen X - #6]

As with any developing crime story, it is important to take any reports filtering out in these early hours with skepticism.

Always good advice. Too bad no one can hear you over the sound of themselves jumping to their preferred conclusion.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

+1 "Just remember, if you hang in there long enough, good things can happen in this world."

[Billy Bones]

The question that keeps eating at me that no one else seems to be asking...Why do these tragedies keep occurring at Government Indoctrination Camps...er, I mean public schools and not private or charter schools? There may be no correlation, but I believe it is question worth asking. Are workplace shootings not colloquially referred to as "going postal", after a series of shootings at another government ran institution?

[Harvard]

vouchers, vouchers, vouchers

[Freddy the Jerk]

No media person ever asks that question.

[Rhywun]

I find it more intriguing that they happen pretty exclusively at suburban public schools. When's the last time you heard of this happening at a city school? You know, where all the crime is?

[$park? leftist poser]

Everybody at those urban schools is packin a gat, you go in there lookin to shoot people and you're gonna get fucked.

[mad.casual]

When's the last time you heard of this happening at a city school? You know, where all the crime is?

If you covered every shooting at a public city school, you'd never get anything done. One here, one there... much easier just to sit back, wait for a larger shooting and do 20X the amount of reporting all at once to compensate.

[ThomasD]

Or a private school...

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Having attended both urban and suburban schools in the pre-Columbine era in Denver, I can attest that even in the 90s when violent crime peaked in this country, the gangbangers and the wannabes in my urban school never, EVER started shit on school grounds. They always took care of business elsewhere. And some of these guys actually packed heat in their lockers; it's amazing that nothing ever happened, looking back on things now. In fact, the only guys who actually started fights in school during my day were the suburban white kids. Maybe it's different now, but that's how it was back then.

A few of the schools had metal detectors and enforced "no gang colors" dress codes, but they were pretty rare. Granted, this was Denver and not Chicago, Compton, East LA, or Detroit, but the schools were pretty laid-back. As society has become increasingly atomized and risk-averse thanks to Gen-Xers and Millennials seeking to mitigate all social harm whatsoever, these events are viewed in a much more stark and apocalyptic manner, and there's more incentive for the socially maladapted to wreak havoc.

[DajjaI]

This happens because the kids keep going on witch hunts (aka gun control rallies) against their autistic and homeschool peers. When you go on a witch hunt guess what you find. How much you wanna bet the perps were victims of autism 'treatment'? They need to round up these kids and bring them to school with them. #incellivesmatter #hugsnotpitchforks

[Freddy the Jerk]

Oh, crap, are you off your meds again?

[DajjaI]

Yep. Good example of the kind of bullying these kids are subjected to. Like I said, #hugsnotpitchforks.

[Shirley Knott]

#nohugsforthugs

[Trainer]

The fire alarm was pulled to empty the school. Smart move since otherwise, kids in other classrooms would have been sitting ducks.

[Harvard]

"Police have not confirmed reports that the shooter used a shotgun."

Ferk. There goes my 1100 trap gun.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

My Mossberg 500 7 + 1

[mad.casual]

I was actually looking at a sawed-off short-barreled shotgun "firearm" (not that specific make/model one). If he used one, I would absolutely expect them to be banned. Harder and faster than bump stocks.

[Pro Libertate]

RIP to the victims, and God bless their families. How horrible.

[Alcibiades]

End the killing fields called "gun-free zones".

[Harvard]

vouchers, vouchers, voucher

[Microaggressor]

His administration would do "everything in our power to keep weapons out of the hands of people"

Too bad they don't have the power to eradicate black markets. You could end this problem overnight by allowing people to defend themselves.

[Harvard]

vouchers, vouchers, vouchers

[Ron]

won't happen, wont happen, wont happen

Now lets talk about something constructive

[Harvard]

You may be guilty (with so many others) of underestimating Trump. He's got Betsy DeVoss in position for a reason. She, that has trumpeted for decades ending government schools.

[Arcxjo]

Better common sense bomb control laws would have prevented the explosive device from being there.

[Citizen X - #6]

Common sense psychopath control laws would have nipped the whole situation in the bud.

[mad.casual]

Insufficient murder control policies clearly to blame.

[Pro Libertate]

Why not arm some certified adults with non-lethal weapons? Not saying no guns, just thinking a solution is needed that won't become a politicized mess.

[mad.casual]

Why not arm some certified adults with non-lethal weapons?

You mean like a folding chair or something?

[Pro Libertate]

Whatever works.

[Harvard]

vouchers, vouchers, vouchers

[Mezzanine]

The dead are expected to include students and staff, according to a senior law enforcement official who was not authorized to speak about the investigation.

That's some top notch police work.

[John]

Students killed at a school shooting. Where would we be without experts to tell us these things?

[Citizen X - #6]

Huh, and here i was expecting the dead to include retirees and astronauts. Thanks, senior law enforcement official!

[$park? leftist poser]

Weird that they don't expect to find any dead archaeologists.

[John]

Yesterday referring to anyone as an animal was the worst sin imaginable. Today, we have to do something about the vicious animals known as the NRA.

[AlmightyJB]

POS.

[Sigivald]

"featuring pins of an iron cross, hammer and sickle, and cthulhu"

1) Cue people totally forgetting every time they've said "Nazis and Communists are nothing like one another and there's no similarity, they're total opposites!"

2) Obviously Lovecraft's fault.

[Mezzanine]

He apparently explained their meaning on Facebook.

Duster Hammer and Sickle = Rebellion
Rising Sun = Kamikaze Tactics
Iron Cross = Bravery
Baphomet = Evil
Cthulhu = Power

[Paloma]

All of the school shooters so far have been boys. Is there a correlation between how boys are now treated like inferior girls in school and school shootings? Or am I going full Jordan Peterson?

[John]

Telling boys they are uslesss, dangerous and inferior to girls in every way might cause some of the more unbalanced ones to become muderous? Wow

[mad.casual]

Telling them would be too forthright, gentlemanly, masculine, confrontational, and violent. You just ask them politely to stop misbehaving whether the misbehavior is disruptive or not and suggest to the peers, parents, and administrators that the ones who don't fall in line start taking medication. We don't want to bully them into feeling inferior, we want them to figure it out on their own and accept it. A more feminine world is an intrinsically less violent and better world.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

"We're a generation of men raised by women. I'm wondering if another woman is really the answer we need."

[Bluebonnet]

Someone reported the shooter wore a trench coat Anyone going into Santa Fe High School in May wearing a trench coat should have set off multiple alarm bells. It isn't cold enough for a trench coat in Santa Fe in December.

[waffles]

Why would the NRA do this?

[JonBlack]

The NRA is strong proponent of late-term abortions.

I think their methods are over the top, but I admire their commitment.

[Mr. Gus]

Winner: darkest post.

[Ron]

they do need a like button at Reason

[Bluebonnet]

Fox News interviewed Rand Paul. Apparently, his nephew was the principal at the school until recently.

[Citizen X - #6]

But not anymore? How suspicious. WHAT DID THE PAUL FAMILY KNOW, AND WHEN DID THEY KNOW IT?

[waffles]

Maybe this is some 'Cabin in the Woods' human sacrifice fuckery. Nothing short of that would satisfy my paranoid mind.

[Citizen X - #6]

I'd expect human sacrifice to involve knives of flint, copper, or obsidian rather than a shotgun, not to mention way more chanting than has so far been reported.

[mad.casual]

knives of flint, copper, or obsidian

No jade or bone knives because everybody knows those races don't do that sort of thing.

[Citizen X - #6]

Look, i don't have time to sit here and list every single material that one human has used to remove the beating heart from the chest of another.

[Rebel Scum]

Dimitrios Pagourtzis

This one will be swept under the rug.

[Zebra Jr.]

?

[Quo Usque Tandem]

Greek heritage, absence of a "black" rifle?

[Bearded Spock]

Precisely. Not white red-necky enough, no AR or semi auto used, didn't legally obtain the weapons.

The only way he could have been a worse fit for the Media Narrative is if he was a member of MS-13 who had recently sneaked across the border.

[creech]

Great Amish name!

[Eidde]

What an awful tragedy, and I can't even get my talking points together yet.

Wait, I have one talking point - I send my thoughts and prayers whether the JournoList crowd likes it or not (remember their campaign against "thoughts and prayers"?).

[Quo Usque Tandem]

Latest reports as saying he used his fathers [legally owned] shotgun and revolver. So AWB would have done squat to prevent this one. Maybe it's not about the way the weapon looks?

[Jerryskids]

an iron cross, hammer and sickle, and cthulhu

Well, the Iron Cross proves he was a Nazi and the Cthulu proves he was a religious nutjob and the hammer and sickle proves he was a Putin/Trump supporter so I guess we got the questions about this one wrapped up.

[lap83]

Homeschool keeps looking better and better

[lap83]

Wasn't meant to be a reply to this comment, sorry

[Zeb]

hammer and sickle

Ban fucking commies.

[Zeb]

If we had to purge confederate flags from the world after that asshole shot up the black church, can we please get rid of commie symbols after this?

[Quo Usque Tandem]

AntiFa circle asshole too while we're at it.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

We can start with the communist choice of beer.

[Deconstructed Potato]

Linky no worky

[The Last American Hero]

No Hale's Red Menace? I am disappoint.

[Paloma]

And The Che t shirts.

[The_Hoser]

I think the way to fix that is to have them spend a week being tortured as if that had voiced a negative opinion of Che, then see how fast they STFU.

[Deconstructed Potato]

I thought the hammer and sickle represented the "workers" united, the "proleteriat", socialism, the revolution? No? Now it's a symbol of "rebellion" because 10 people were murdered? Countless millions callously and torturously murdered in the name of "revolution" and that's apparently fine, but 10 people shot today and it's "oh he isn't one of us".

[Deconstructed Potato]

Oh balls i didn't parse that awkward tweet correctly. Apparently the shooter himself called it "rebellion". Well he's an idiot. Apparently so am I. It's idiots all the way down.

[SOFL Hockey Fan]

Didn't he want breakfast and not a hamburger?

[SOFL Hockey Fan]

Michael Douglas in Falling Down, that is.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Tossing prayer and creationism out of our stronger schools was important.

Hearing right-wingers whimper and rant about gay marriage came out of nowhere is still fun.

Shutting down torture was a moral imperative (with some prosecutions in a few years, let's hope).

Shoving desegregation and voting rights down the throats of southern bigots was great.

Implementing environmental protections continues to generate great benefits.

Turning back the goobers who opposed abortion rights and contraception was huge.

Yanking the leash of drug warriors is always great sport.

But I sense that the backlash against gun absolutists is going to be the most entertaining part of achieving progress against the aims and efforts of right-wing yahoos during my lifetime.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

But I sense that the backlash against gun absolutists is going to be the most entertaining part of achieving progress against the aims and efforts of right-wing yahoos during my lifetime.

Ironically, there were fewer school shootings during this period of moral repression. Maybe a little commie blacklisting is what's actually needed here.

[CE]

What about when a Democratic administration sends crates of guns to drug lords?

[10mm]

"Abortion rights"

=baby-murder.

"Gun absolutists"

=pro-self defense.

"Stronger Schools" -in what universe are you speaking of?

George Carlin warned us of euphemisms. The left is good at white-washing their real motives.

[RodgerMitchell]

The solution: More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns. More guns.

That is the NRA and the right-wing solution. Anyone know of any other solutions?

[Ron]

Can you eliminate all guns overnight? no you can't so eliminating guns isn't a solution either. Your turn to come up with a solution to unsolvable problem .

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

the right-wing solution. Anyone know of any other solutions?

Don't forget praying on it a spell . . .

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Lock up all progressives is a solution as well.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Feel free to pray on that, goober.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

You can throw soy at us and shriek, "Go away! Go away!"

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Starve everyone to death.

[CE]

Close down all the public schools, just to be safe.

[10mm]

Parental legal culpability.

[RodgerMitchell]

Crocodile tears from President Trump. How exactly is he going to"keep weapons out of the hands of people who pose a risk to themselves and others"?

His plan: More guns, more guns, more guns, more handwringing, more guns, more shootings, more money from the NRA.

[XM]

Sigh

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Hopefully you're hit by a drunk driver so you can go after the alcohol industry instead.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Drunken driver, you illiterate yahoo.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Intoxicated Driver, Grandpa Moses.

[DJK]

Multiple American English dictionaries contend that "drunk driver" is just fine. I guess it's time to add wrongly pedantic to the list of your horrible attributes.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Your knowledge of grammar is worse than your knowledge of history. Maybe you should stop copypasting your tired shitposts.

[Ron]

I noticed on another site a kid saying it was eventually going to happen here. she is correct because all schools teach about school shootings now at all age groups and if we know anything about kids is if you teach a kid about something they will act on it. its a self fulfilling prophecy.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

It is being reported the killer got the guns from a parent.

Unless the killer got the guns by defeating generally effective security measures, let's hope the parent is imprisoned for life.

And bankrupted.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

let's hope the parent is imprisoned for life.

On what charge?

[Sevo]

You think the asshole cares about that?

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

"Born To Kill" as well as a black duster featuring pins of an iron cross, hammer and sickle, and cthulhu.

Ok, which H&R comment didn't show up today?

[Bubba Jones]

Approximately 50 kids will drown on the first day of summer.

(3500/year adjusted for the days kids are actually swimming)

[The Last American Hero]

Don't you go putting things in perspective, now. We gots narratives to flog.

[10mm]

Ban lakes, only permitted pools with max 10" deep water to be allowed, after a thorough background check.

Oh, and you have to be 21 to swim.

[XM]

I grew up in an immigrant Confucius / Christian household. The upside of this was that I was always a part of a community. My family and cousins got together for more than a dozen times a year for any number of occasions. People knew me. And if I was going through something, they would feel the obligation to intervene, because my actions would reflect badly on the family name or even themselves. At the very least my aunts and church members would urge my parents to do something.

How do parents not know their 17-18 year olds are posting pics of weapons online AND making potentially dangerous remarks? None of this kid's relatives and friends knew he was walking around with T-shirts that read "kill everyone"? How long until we find out this guy was being monitored by law enforcement and disciplined by the school for threatening behavior, but no one did anything about it?

We've always said the caliber of the gun (or even just the gun) is not the issue, and sure enough, an incel ran over 12 people in Toronto and this lunatic stole non assault weapons to kill 10 people. And he built bombs. By most measures we're at peak safety, but the state of our society is ripe for unstable minds in their formative years can be poisoned or inflated. I'm off every social media platform save Facebook, and I use my smartphones sparingly.

[10mm]

Headline: Crazy white kid shoots up school.

The Left everywhere this morning: Yes! High five, we got them now!

Headline: Reports saying shotgun and a 38, possible explosives

The Left: dammit, moving on...

[Earth Skeptic]

By a show of hands: how many think the over-the-top media coverage is as likely to cause the next school shooting as lax guns laws, lack of funding for mental health care, or violent gaming?

OK then, how many think we shold severly restrict media coverage, cuz we need to do everything possible?

[Pro Libertate]

Yes; fuck no.

[lap83]

1. Probably more likely
2. Obviously we shouldn't restrict media coverage....but personally I avoid the major news outlets at times like this.
It hardly makes a dent, I'm sure, but at least I'm not encouraging them by giving them clicks

[Hank Phillips]

The Nixon anti-libertarian law funds the media to elect looters. Killing your disarmed schoolmates will elect Hillary and Obama, is the subliminal message. Otherwise, prohibitionism, coathanger healthcare, imaginary warming. Likewise the people that instituted the income tax, made medical care unaffordable so they could ban beer and leaves, and want to deport and kill foreigners (and keep 2A) are implicitly blamed for every kid in the Jump against Trump suicide movement.
I distinctly recall libertarians being less easily fooled and stampeded by subsidized teevee and other parties' infiltrators.

[Rock Cowles]

Stop giving these sick POSs notoriety! Erase them from the memory of humanity and the copycats will lose their incentive.

[Echospinner]

An aside but do know about Yitzak Rabin? The former Prime Minister of Israel. He was shot by a Jewish terrorist extremist after he gave a speech in Tel Aviv. The place is now called Yitzak Rabin square.

If you go there is a memorial. It shows exactly where everyone was standing with brass markers and a poster diagram explaining, like a permanent freeze frame of the moment when he was assassinated.

On the ground there are brass rounded plates. Each one with the names of those who were there, Rabin, his security guards and others he was with, are all named in Hebrew and English.

Except one.

The position of the shooter is marked as ??? (rotzeach) murderer. No other name.

I understand what you are saying and agree.

My two cents.

We are missing the point in talking about these murderous rampages. Vapid discussion about statistical probability of how 15 year olds die in the population or various types of weapons. Talking points about constitutional issues. That is not how or why this happened and it happens too much.

I have no great answers. There is clearly a pathology, a disease in our society which needs to be addressed. Something is wrong here.

The path to diagnosis needs specificity and defined terms before we can get to any prescription or treatment. We do not understand what the problem is. Politics blocks any further progress.

[Tionico]

At 17 he could not legally own or possess a handgun in public, nor a shotgun. If these guns were his father's there will be issues with that.... it is certain he could not have bought them at retail.

But the kneejerk response from the jerks will still be t ban assault weapons, raise the age tp purchase to 21, and a few equally idiiotic non solutions.

More useful details will be coming out... I hope his prescriptioin meds lst will be revealed. He MIGHT be the exception to the near flawless record that connects mass shootings with modd altering drugs..... but I sorta smell he's not.

[kifiduwufi]

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[xazeke]

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[bms86982]

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[oliviastephen]

Save Your Relationship and Get Your Ex Boyfriend/Girlfriend Back!contact: [e-mail] is certainly the best spell caster online and his result is 100% guarantee.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

Wouldn't be the first time; if so, the number of fatalities will be cited and lumped for the purpose of an AWB.

[DJK]

Kel-Tec now makes a pump action shotgun with a 25 shell capacity (for 2.75" shells). That's probably 45-50 if using mini shells, which would still likely be lethal at close range. It uses tubular magazines, so reloads are slow. It's probably among the most useful weapons for causing this kind of carnage. I suppose that's why it's not on any "assault weapon" list I've ever seen?

[Quo Usque Tandem]

There's also the Chinese made Lynx 12 semi auto 12 GA that takes Saiga mags; saw it on sale just a couple of days ago for $400. Tempted but I do not fancy AK style weapons nor any gun made in China; the Youtube postings look impressive enough but I doubt they hold up all that long.

[DJK]

I would also never buy an AK or any variant or anything patterned after it. Especially Chinese knockoffs. Why would anyone want a rail, after all? 😉