Brickbat: You Can Never Leave

Miquel Llop/NurPhoto/Sipa USA/Newscom

The Spanish government has seized more than 1.3 million leaflets and other materials promoting a referendum on independence for Catalonia. Meanwhile, prosecutors are threatening to charge elected officials with civil disobedience, abuse of office and misuse of government funds if the vote takes place.

Comments

[Telcontar the (Obama) Birther]

"Prime Minister Streisand has warned the Catalan officials of further penalties if they attempt to distribute the leaflets."

[Lily Bulero]

I don't get it.

[Telcontar the (Obama) Birther]

I've been known to have that... EFFECT on people.

[sharmota4zeb]

I think there was this guy named Robert Lee who believed that states and provinces have the right to secede from a nation.

[some guy]

So what is going to be the Catalan version of Fort Sumter?

[Telcontar the (Obama) Birther]

The Running of the Bulls... *With Freakin' Lasers Attached to their Heads*. Through the Vatican.

[Telcontar the (Obama) Birther]

You misspelled "George Washington".

[loveconstitution1789]

Who is this Robert E. Lee? I think I remember there used to historical markers to let us know who this Robert was and why there were markers. Oh well, I guess it was not important.

[Conchfritters]

He's a college football commentator or play by play guy for ESPN. You can see him calling games in the Northeastern and North Central regions of the United States.

[Liberty Lover]

And he was only able to hold the belief for a short time. Mr. Lincoln change his mind on that.

[Liberty Lover]

And he was only able to hold the belief for a short time. Mr. Lincoln change his mind on that.

[Fist of Etiquette]

I don't know Spanish politics. Are the Catalans the ones who speak with an intentional lisp?

[loveconstitution1789]

yesp.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Ha!

[loveconstitution1789]

So long gay boys!

[Hateful Reactionary]

No, they are the ones that vote to ban bullfighting. They speak in a hybrid language that's basically half french. But on the other hand this secession is awesome. And the rest of Spain becomes dramatically more conservative upon Catalan exit. So this is a win-win for freedom if they do pull out. Viva Espana!

[Rhywun]

No, those are the Castilians.

[Shirley Knott]

No one expects the Spanish Civil War.

[Radioactive]

Inquisition much?

[loveconstitution1789]

Where is the Alt-Right Condor Legion when you need them?

[Lily Bulero]

Secession is a morally neutral tool which can be used for good (eg, breaking off from George III's British empire) or evil (eg, founding a slave republic).

If I knew more about the Catalonian situation I'd be able to say which kind of secession this would be.

[Hateful Reactionary]

Their main goals are social liberalism like banning things like bullfighting and smoking.

People always refer to the South as a slave empire. Y'all realize that Abraham Lincoln headed a slaving republic for years, right? And cared vastly more about secession than slavery? If the Confederacy was a slave empire, the USA was a slave empire too, and the North was fighting for slavery because KY and MD were in it.

The Second American Revolution was as just as the first, and our national obsession over the wonderful morality of 600K mindless deaths of American youth, the worst event in our history by a country mile, is fucking disgusting.

I hope that when freedom-loving Americans rise again, the state won't murder such a high percentage of people, but of course they will.

[Hateful Reactionary]

And if you don't think a civil war is coming, you aren't paying attention.

[Conchfritters]

Where are the battle lines? Where will the Mason Dixon line be this time? I also heard rumor the world is going to end on Saturday.

[Hateful Reactionary]

Every day brings new notice of people being attacked in the streets for political incorrectness. And the police don't protect people from Leftist violence.

[Stormy Dragon]

Where are the battle lines?

The coming civil war will consist mostly of Hateful Reactionary being extra mean to people on the internet.

[Lily Bulero]

"the USA was a slave empire too"

It was certainly turning into on in the 1850s, which is largely why Lincoln got elected in 1860. He would limit slavery to where it already was - Lincoln hoped it would wither away if denied the chance to expand.

Secession put the issue, in Lincoln's mind, as union v. disunion - he didn't immediately go for full-on abolitionism, it took a year and a half to commit to freeing *most* of the slaves (in the Confederate territory he proposed to reconquer) and he began jawboning to free the rest (in the federally-occupied slave territories). And it took quite a while for him to realize that his solution for the freed slaves - sending them out of the country - wouldn't work.

Then as every Spielberg fan knows, he pushed an abolition amendment through Congress shortly before he croaked.

[Robert]

He would limit slavery to where it already was - Lincoln hoped it would wither away if denied the chance to expand.

I've never understood how that was supposed to follow, except in a disingenuous way: by admitting non-slave states to outvote them.

It's like those who say the threat of Star Wars got the USSR to overspend & exhaust itself. That works only if you believe they had to, to defend themselves from a nuclear war of aggression.

[Wizard4169]

Limiting the expansion of slavery would have doomed the southern economy as it existed, which was actually the main driver of secession. Ante-bellum southern agriculture was intensive but primitive, which was very hard on the soil. Soil erosion and mineral depletion were leading to falling crop yields in what had previously been rich farm land. Better farming techniques were available even then, but southern elites tended to be knee-jerk reactionaries, so any suggestions for agricultural reform were met with indifference, if not outright hostility. This meant that the only way to keep their system going was to acquire new land.

[Wizard4169]

As of 1860, outright abolitionists were still a distinct minority, but support for limiting the expansion of slavery into any new territories was strong and growing. This was actually the primary driver behind secession. (Note that the newly-proclaimed Confederacy immediately claimed several territories that had not yet achieved statehood.) This is also why letting the CSA peacefully go their own way would have delayed war, but probably wouldn't have prevented it. I can't think of any reason that the USA wouldn't have continued westward expansion after secession, and the CSA had to expand. Since there was only so much land to go around, conflict would become steadily more likely. Considering just how contentious the debate over whether new territories should be slave of free was even when the USA and CSA were a single country, it's hardly implausible that the two separate countries would resort to violence to settle their quarrels.

[Radioactive]

I like mine dipped in chocolate with some confectioners sugar...ooooh thought you said cannoli's...never mind.

[Citizen X - #6]

Come and see the violence inherent in the system!

[Rebel Scum]

Meanwhile, prosecutors are threatening to charge elected officials with civil disobedience, abuse of office and misuse of government funds if the vote takes place.

At least they are not threatening violence and bloodshed for declaring sovereignty.