An Immigration Deal May or May Not Be Happening, FTC Investigating Equifax, Motel 6 Responds to Reports of Collaboration with ICE: P.M. Links


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  1. But he says the wall will come later.

    Schumer and Pelosi are going to pay for the wall themselves!

    1. All in all, he’s just another prick for a wall.

      1. Jesus, how many glory holes are there in this wall?

    2. Hello.


  2. Apparently Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) is just happy that Trump likes him.

    Both men just want to be liked!

    1. This is going to turn into a gay porno that I can’t wait to release.

      1. Which one has the bigger moobs?

        1. +1 Pearl Harbor

        2. Schumer, Trump’s just seem bigger because of the tiny hands.

      2. these euphemisms are tmi

        1. I don’t know if I could be less euphemistic then what I said.

    2. Is that so wrong?

  3. Equifax apparently had a fix for the vulnerability that led to its data breach but failed to update their security.

    But Windows Updates is such a hog.

    1. In Argentina, their login and password was ‘admin’ – wish I was making this up.

      1. Big Head: My username is ‘password’ and my password is ‘password.’

        Richard: Your username is ‘password’?

        Big Head: It was just easier.

  4. After Motel 6 got extensive publicity over allegations it was sharing guest lists with immigration officials in Arizona so that they could more easily round up people here illegally, the hotel chain says it would stop the practice.

    If it is a national practice I wish everyone would stop highlighting that this one case happened in Arizona. We get it, people think we hate Mexicans there.

    1. After Motel 6 got extensive publicity over allegations it was sharing guest lists with immigration officials nationally so that they could more easily round up people here illegally, the hotel chain says it would stop the practice.

      Is that better for you?

    2. What part of “arpaio” do you not understand?

  5. The police union in Stamford, Connecticut, is filing a labor complaint over orders that they carry Narcon to help reverse drug overdoses because it wasn’t agreed upon in their contract.

    Being ready and equipped to save lives? Not their job.

    1. Public employees should not be allowed to unionize.

      1. Is that you, FDR?

    2. To protect and serve…themselves

    3. They want overtime pay for learning to carry it.

    4. They want overtime pay for learning to carry it.

    5. It’s time for concerned citizens to start carrying around high-dose ampules of fentanyl for injecting into police union officials.

  6. After Motel 6 got extensive publicity over allegations it was sharing guest lists with immigration officials in Arizona so that they could more easily round up people here illegally, the hotel chain says it would stop the practice.

    When you’re the dirt-cheapest thing available, I guess you don’t need to worry much about public perception.

    1. “Dear ICE, here is our guest list. We’ll leave the light on for ya.”

      1. You already know that police often drive thru motel and hotel parking lots at night scanning license plates?

        I believe part of the reason government is against Air BnB, etc. is that they do not have huge corporations helping out the police state, so people can stay somewhere overnight free from government’s prying domestic spying. Well, if you use a burner cell phone that is.

  7. Former CIA Acting Chief Michael J. Morrell has resigned from his senior fellowship at Harvard’s Kennedy School in protest after Chelsea Manning was invited to be a visiting fellow there this year.

    The best part about her time in prison is it finally gave the time to finish her dissertation.

    1. Does she actually have anything to offer as a fellow at Harvard? A fellowship is supposed to be for actualy scholarly work, isn’t it? As far as I know, all Manning did was release some files that were supposed to be secret and then get caught and treated poorly. I suppose she might have some insight into how government operates, but probably not the sort they want to teach at the Kennedy school.

      Am I missing something here?

      1. You’re missing that it’s a move to piss off everyone who believes in national security.

        1. I’m going to need both you to stop your assault on transwomen. I. Just. Can’t. Even. Today

        2. I’m having a hard time figuring out how the CIA provides any national security.

          1. The dark side of American exceptionalism?

      2. As far as I know, all Manning did was release some files that were supposed to be secret

        Without even looking at them. So, yeah – hard to see what expertise would be there to draw on.

    2. Harvard is just following other great examples of once strong institutions purposefully weakening themselves for political opinions.

      Novel Peace Prize for example.

  8. Former CIA Acting Chief Michael J. Morrell has resigned from his senior fellowship at Harvard’s Kennedy School in protest after Chelsea Manning was invited to be a visiting fellow there this year.

    But really it was to duck Spicer.

    1. “That fucking guy? Man, i’m outta here.”

    1. I had to read the article to realize the picture of the seahorse with the cottonswab was sad.

    2. The one with the tongue parasites gives me the creeps.

      1. Tongue parasites are the worst.

        1. Even worse than Nikki.

          1. Whatever happened to her?

            1. Maybe having people constantly tell you that you’re the worst gets old after a while?

    3. Also, the sleepy squirrel one looks like a painting instead of a photograph.

  9. The police union in Stamford, Connecticut, is filing a labor complaint over orders that they carry Narcon to help reverse drug overdoses because it wasn’t agreed upon in their contract.

    Speaking of not having to worry about public perception.

    1. Who are you gonna call if you don’t like it? The cops?

      1. This is why I keep a portable Batsignal in the trunk.

  10. The details were provided anonymously by seven administration officials.

    Don’t make fun of Trump’s anti-leaking schemes so subtly, Shacklefrod.

  11. Study: Women in long-term relationships more likely than men to lose interest in sex

    Women are more likely than men to lose interest in sex while in a longterm relationship, according to a new study.

    The study published in the journal BMJ Open surveyed 4,839 British men and 6,669 women aged 16-74, and found that overall 15% of men and 34.2% of women reported lacking interest in sex for three months or more in the previous year. For both men and women, the reasons for lack of interest in sex varied, with some reporting that age, health, and depression affected their desire.

    Just get a sex doll, men. Sex dolls are where it’s at.

    1. until the sex dolls are advanced enough to lose interest too

      1. Then you just push the reset button.

        1. Post pics of your Negative Nancy doll.

      2. They were never that in to you.

  12. There won’t be a wall.

    THERE ALREADY IS A WALL. It’s just not long enough yet.

  13. …Chelsea Manning was invited to be a visiting fellow there this year.

    Visiting fellow? I guess the Kennedy School hadn’t got the memo.





            1. That’s like getting rid of your Blu-Ray’s and buying some Betamax.


                1. I can’t deal with all these caps. At least Gilmore is not here with all his italics.


                  2. What’s wrong with the greasy italics? Racist.



          1. Fallow is more like it! Amirite?!?!? Uh, is this thing on…


  14. ‘It looked like a cheerleader-type pyramid’: Hospital staff suspended after 15 crammed into operating room to gawp and take PHOTOS of a patient with an item lodged in their genitals

    A ‘ton’ of medical staff crowded into a Pennsylvania operating room to take photographs of an unconscious patient’s genitals, an investigation has uncovered.

    Three physicians were suspended after the ‘chaos’ in which the staff used their cell phones to photograph the patient, who had been submitted after a ‘foreign object’ was inserted into their genitals, the state’s Department of Health said.

    ‘I was attending to the patient and at one point when I looked up, there were so many people it looked like a cheerleader-type pyramid,’ a surgeon at UPMC Bedford Memorial hospital told investigators.

    ‘I did not have a purpose to be in there,’ EMP11 admitted. ‘It was sheer curiosity. I did take pictures and shared them with my spouse…’

    1. their genitals

      “Honestly, we could not determine the gender of the patient. It was that bad.”

      1. At least the article clarified, as at first I assumed “it looked like a cheerleader-type pyramid” was referring to the patients genitals.

        1. I heard genital warts could get bad, but daaaamn.

    2. Is this different from the case of the nurses at a corpse’s junk from earlier today?

      1. I was thinking of opening a pub called The Corpse’s Junk but it was already trademarked.

        1. Yeah, great band.

    3. I forgot the best/worst part:

      Exactly what the object was is unclear, but the report says that the tools used to extract it created ‘sparks’ that required protective eyewear.

      What the dickens!

      1. Sounds like fucked up and shoved a cock ring inside rather than at the base. Rookie mistake.

          1. I’m surprised your link still works.

    4. ‘I did take pictures and shared them with my spouse…’

      Sounds like a good night.

    5. Sadists. They aren’t even going to deign to tell us whether the patient was male or female.

    6. Pics or it didn’t happen.

  15. American tank brigade rolls into Poland as fears grow Russia is planning ANOTHER Ukraine-style land grab

    The arrival of some 1,000 pieces of US military equipment is part of the largest reinforcement of eastern Europe since the end of the Cold War.

    Behind it all is Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 2014, and its ongoing “shadow war” is support of pro-Moscow separatists in Ukraine.

    The tanks’ arrival comes just days ahead of Russia’s controversial Zapad 2017 war games, conducted with its ally and neighbour Belarus.

    Poland has expressed fears the manoeuvres are practice for a future invasion, intended to expand the Russian Baltic Sea enclave of Kaliningrad ? located between Poland and Lithuania.

    It has also highlighted how regions of Belarus with large populations of ethnic Poles have been designated “terrorist insurgents” as part of the games’ imaginary scenario.

    Others have expressed fears the exercise could be a cover a massive ? and permanent ? re-positioning of Russian troops, and possibly even a takeover of the pro-Moscow ally itself.

    “Don’t worry Poland, you can trust us.”

    1. I swear I saw this episode before.

      1. Circa 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

    2. Warning: NSFW images on sidebar.

      1. :clicks link:

        1. :immediately regrets clicking link:

  16. The police union in Stamford, Connecticut, is filing a labor complaint over orders that they carry Narcon to help reverse drug overdoses because it wasn’t agreed upon in their contract.

    First responders?

    1. Their first response was “Not my job, mang.”

    2. So long as “they” get home safely, civilians are on their own.

    3. Heroes first. Then Warriors! Then Union brothers.

  17. John Judis shows the world what it means to lack self-awareness and a glimpse of peak irony. In a piece arguing that the Democrats need to walk away from identity politics, Judis says “Especially following his noxious comments on Charlottesville, it’s hard to see Trump’s election as anything but a national revival of white supremacy” without a hint of self awareness.

    What this article proves is that even when Democrats are aware enough to understand the problem, they still can’t help themselves from engaging in racial identity politics. White liberals like Judis have what can best be described as a compulsion to assert their moral superiority over non liberal whites and specifically do so on the issue of race. Even when they understand that it is harmful, they still can’t help themselves.…..rats-wrong

    1. He says the Republicans play racial politics and the Democrats should stop doing so because “it plays into the hands of Republicans”. He never bothers to consider why Democrats play racial politics. They do so because it is the only way they can get minorities to vote Democrat in large enough numbers. Judis assumes that minorities would be automatically attracted to the Democratic economic message and Democrats don’t need to play racial politics to get minority voters. And that is absurd. He doesn’t seem to know why Democrats play racial politics or even think to ask the question.

      1. So do you not consider what Trump and the entire GOP does to be racial politics?

        1. No. If you can hear dog whistles, then you’re the dog. QED

      2. It’s classic example of an extreme partisan. All the issues you might take with your own team are stemmed from an evil of your opponent. Perhaps he believes Republicans started all this racial politics stuff when they stood against slavery.

      3. John, the racial identity politics of left and right are not symmetrical.

        The racial identity politics of the left has its basis in the idea of trying to secure the fundamental rights and liberties for groups that were oppressed in the past, oppressed often due to race. Now it is arguable that this is what racial identity politics of the left NOW is. But that is its origin.

        What is the origin of racial identity politics of the right? It isn’t to try to secure fundamental rights and liberties for white people. They haven’t been historically oppressed *collectively* in this country, and especially not due to race. What is its purpose, if not as just a reaction to the identity politics of the left?

        I personally do not like identity politics, I wish people wouldn’t engage in it, I am completely an individualist at heart. But if we are going to talk about identity politics of left and right, then let’s not create false equivalence.

        1. Abraham Lincoln was a republican.

          LBJ spent most of his career blocking the republican civil rights act.

          So perhaps the correct answer is that republicans simply aren’t built around identify politics. I suppose you could point to religion, but that isn’t racist.

    2. Welcome back.

      Though honestly given my sporadic attention to Reason these days, I didn’t notice, but I do think Reason’s comments section is lessened without your intelligent and vigorous debate.

      In fact, 15 years ago, there were a ton of very thoughtful commenters. Now there’s fewer. Without you and like 5 others, if imagine many more would stop dropping by too.

      Just 2-3 years ago- threads like this would be 300+ comments, now hardly a thread rises above 100. It’s the loss of that core set, you being one of them, that has lessened the appeal of this site.

      Not that we ever agreed on everything, but glad you’re back.

      1. You missed the part where John went full alt-retard and turned into a raging dick to anyone that opposed Trump during his last few months around here.

        1. Those were not the best times for many. Forgiveness is a virtue.

        2. No Hazel, you went full retard. I am the same person I have always been.

      2. A good portion of those missing comments were looong threads about sports. Now you can’t even get a good NYC v. CHI pizza thread off the ground.

    3. People virtue signal when they have no honorable character.

      The worst part about this is the effect it has on the young – they learn that virtue signalling is more important than honor so they discount even trying to become honorable. The young have been trained to believe victimhood is a point of honor.

      In a way it explains Hilary and TDS. She has no honor at all, and despite his flaws Trump shows occasional flashes of honor moreso than maybe a handful of Congressmen and Governors. It’s easy to hammer at Trump’s obvious flaws and lies because you can number them – Hilary has so many lies and so much dishonor in her history that one simply runs out of time listing them. Even her supporters could only point out her gender as a point of honor – as if being a grown girl was something she achieved rather than something that was inevitable without any effort. And really they only point to her sex as if that somehow makes her disadvantaged and therefore a victim of some sort.

  18. Star Wars — should we even care anymore?

    But Disney’s direction here is a complete antithesis of what Star Wars represents to begin with. “Star Wars, A New Hope” (the very first Star Wars film, released in 1977) as an original film would never have been made if not for daring risks and bold directions taken by George Lucas or the studio that agreed to distribute it. “The Empire Strikes Back,” perhaps the greatest film sequel in history, took the groundwork of the original and flipped it on the ear of conventional wisdom. Lucas turned over an extraordinary amount of creative control to Irvin Kershner and screenwriters Lawrence Kasdan and Leigh Brackett. “Return of the Jedi,” while not as revered as its predecessors, was a satisfying conclusion to the trilogy with its own iconography in film culture.

    Disney appears to be doing the exact opposite and seems content with cashing in on the back of Darth Vader’s lightsaber for the foreseeable future. Instead of opening the universe up to new storytellers with fearless visions and ideas they are clamping down.


    1. I know one thing, I’m not gonna trick myself into thinking JJ Abrams might actually not make a steaming shitpile this next time.

    2. The original movie was the only good one and mostly because the special effects were awesome at the time.

      1. This is the only good opinion you’ve ever had.

        1. How about when I said that you were worse than Nicole? You can’t argue with that.

      2. That is waaaay off target.

        The first two are really good – the second better – and the third is decent.

        The 4th and 5th are abysmal, the 6th was decent but still not as good as Jedi.

        #7 was . . . not good. Not bad, but definitely not good. The, whatever the hell it was, ‘EU movie’ or whatever wasn’t any worse than mediocre.

        But I won’t be seeing the next one. I am totes not interested in what happens to Ray and her BFF’s and especially not Darth Moodswings.

    3. Yeah, Disney is a shit company.

      1. They really are they ruin everything they touch. They rewrite ancient stories, and fuck them up, then an entire generation grows up thinking Aesop’s fables and lesson teaching Greek mythology are Disney stories, usually with extra princesses shoved in.
        Also, Walt was a Nazi sympathizer. Fuck Disney.

    4. People are really steamed about that one (vital) scene in Rogue One, huh?

      1. I just think Disney is kind of soulless in general. They have exceptions, but by and large they make technically proficient blandness.

        1. It’s the destinction between craftsmanship and artistry. Current Disney movies are excellent craft but terrible art.

          1. I would say that’s historically true of them as well. Their strange ones are few and far between, and they often seem to be ones people don’t really like that much. Like Rescuers.

            Don Bluth is the one true son we need. Even if his 90s films were iffy at best.

            1. The Black Cauldron is one of their best animated movies, IMO. Box office bomb, but a great movie.

              1. Yeah, truly underappreciated.

              2. Black cauldron. Blackspotation movie

          2. I thought Zootopia was good

            1. I liked that one too. One of the rare ones. Probably because it’s development was so fucked.

              1. Emperor’s New Groove turned into a surprisingly good movie after development hell too.

        2. Agreed, with both of you. Episode 8 will be the real test for me. If Rian Johnson can’t make a solid SW film, I’ll point all my fingers at Disney.

          That Han Solo movie sounds like trash and completely unnecessary.

        3. My oldest liked Force Awakens and I thought it was okay due to the special effects, but it’s plainly obvious that the entire movie was a fucking marketing exercise rather than an attempt to tell an interesting story. If it had been called “Galaxy Raiders” rather than a Star Wars flick it would have bombed.

        4. Pixar proved that. So Disney bought ’em. Someone currently with children would have to tell me if Pixar has kept their quality storytelling or slipped into the current Disney blandness.

      2. Rogue One was one of the best Star Wars movies made so far. I’ll put it right under Return of the Jedi. No, actually ahead of it.

        1. I wouldn’t go that far, but it’s my favorite since the original trilogy. There are some flaws – deep flaws – but I didn’t find it dour or pandering or what so many critics complain about. It’s mostly a nice story of lost people doing something good with their lives, with laser guns and space ships.

    5. Disney is not exactly known for their risk taking.

    6. They did pay several billions of dollars for the rights. I’d clamp down, too.

      I would like to see a Guillermo del Toro, Peter Jackson, Christopher Nolan, or James Cameron Star Wsrs story. That would be great.

      I think TLJ will be tits. I think IX will be awesone. But, to be frank, I would watch a SW film if it was directed by Uwe Boll and starred Dennis Hopper as Jar-Jar’s uncle and Dolph Lundgren as C3P0.

      1. A Uwe Boll SW movie would be hilarious. From what I hear, Boll despises nerds and he’d go way over the top in shitting all over their precious franchise.

  19. Mnuchin: Honeymoon plane request was ‘not about convenience’

    Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin on Thursday defended his request to take a government plane on his honeymoon, insisting that it was about national security, and “not about convenience.”

    Government waste matters again!

    “Let me be clear: I’m very sensitive to the use of government funds,” Mnuchin said. “I’ve never asked the government to pay for my personal travel, and this was purely about alternatives of how I’d be able to be involved for national security.”

    Mnuchin’s comments echo an earlier defense from a department spokesperson, who said the secretary made the request because “it is imperative that he have access to secure communications, and it is our practice to consider a wide range of options to ensure he has these capabilities during his travel, including the possible use of military aircraft.”

    Oh wait, the “national security,” excuse matters again!

    1. I can hear SECDEF chuckling from here.

    2. If the Secretary of the Treasury was so vital to national security, why did they run the debt up to 20 trillion?

    3. His wife is freakin’ hot

  20. If we assess means, motive, and opportunity, it’s hard not to conclude that Mike Pence is the leaker. And those six other guys.

    1. The call is coming from inside the cabinet!

      1. That’s a great idea for a movie. The Killer VP.

        1. Oliver Stone already did it. It was called “JFK”.

        2. Isn’t that basically the plot of Season 2 of House of Cards (the Netflix version)?

  21. The police union is, however, required to carry Dorkon.

  22. (Spoiler: There won’t be a wall.)

    Then there will be no second term.

    1. There’s not going to be a second Trump term no matter what. Most likely he won’t last that long. Even if he does, reportedly he has no interest in being president now and certainly doesn’t want to do it again.

      1. I heard those predictions the first time. 3.5 years is a ways off yet.

      2. Obama never ended Bush’s wars.

      3. Tony|9.14.17 @ 6:32PM|#
        “There’s not going to be a second Trump term no matter what. Most likely he won’t last that long.”

        Welcome to the nit-wit fantasy world!

      4. Yeah I find it hard to believe Trump will be re-elected in any case.

        His election was such a fluke, mainly because of the horrible D candidate who turned off so many D voters who stayed home. He’s not getting anything done, and with elections drawing closer, it’s not going to get any easier. And Republicans in Congress are just breathtakingly incompetent. Which R voter is going to step up and try to reward them for what they have “done”?

  23. “President Donald Trump wants a deal to protect young immigrants from deportation in exchange for increased border security, but not necessarily a wall. But he says the wall will come later. (Spoiler: There won’t be a wall.) “
    SPOILER: There already IS a wall.

    1. But both that and the wall Hillary called for are shorter than the wall Trump calls for.

      1. Honestly, it’s not about the security or demography. Trump just literally wants a “big beautiful wall” because he’s got a very specifically awful sense of design. Hell, if they could build it out of gold, he’d be even happier!

    2. I was wondering how Trump’s followers would handle being completely mindless Trump bootlickers while not getting the big thing he promised that made them like him in the first place. And here we have it: He already did the wall! Winning! America is great again already you just didn’t notice!

      1. I would have thought your personal experience of being a mindless progressive bootlicker would have provided the answer for you

      2. No, there actually is a partial wall. Trump didn’t build it, the Mexicans didn’t pay for it, and it didn’t satisfy the hardcore restrictionists in the past so why should it do so now.

        1. I just saw data that showed that if Trump expresses support for immigrants, his followers start showing it too.

          Yeah I would have thought they hated immigrants first and loved Trump second too.

          1. In other news, apparently support for free trade has always been a left wing position, and we have always been at war with East Asia.

            1. Support for free trade has long been a center-left position, and rejection of free-trade remains a Berniecrat position.

  24. Authors demand to be subsidized in their choice of a not quite lucrative profession…

    “The healthcare debate in our country is in a pause as the sides take stock and regroup. But it’s only a pause. The fight will resume soon enough. If you want to support your favorite authors, first, buy their books. Second, write reviews. But a close third is to call your reps. Let them know the truth of the ACA. That it hasn’t killed jobs, but created them. That the people using it aren’t looking for a handout, but are doing everything they can to pay their own way. To create. To contribute. To weave their own little corner of the tapestry that is the proud tradition of American storytelling.

    They deserve that chance. As does everyone.”

    See article

    1. People say “I’m doing everything I can do” way too easily. I’m not sure they should do everything they can, but everything is way beyond working a part-time job.

    2. To weave their own little corner of the tapestry that is the proud tradition of American storytelling.

      “Lemme tell you bout the time I demanded, ‘GIBSMEDAT OR YOU A MONSTER,’ and they did.”

    1. There is so much evidence that no one should go outside, and yet we continue to be blind.

  25. I’d be interested in a libertarian take on Bruce Schneier’s view of how to deal with Equifax-type breaches. He argues that it’s a market failure, since Equifax’s customers (people like mortgage companies, car dealers, Macy’s) have nothing to lose if our data is stolen, but we have no leverage over Equifax, since we’re the ‘product’, not the customer:
    The market can’t fix this. Markets work because buyers choose between sellers, and sellers compete for buyers. In case you didn’t notice, you’re not Equifax’s customer. You’re its product.


    1. Market failures like this can only be solved through government intervention.

      To me, saying that the market failed is nonsensical. The market just is. It doesn’t succeed or fail.

      If you don’t like how careless Equifax was with your data, don’t waste your breath complaining to Equifax. Complain to your government.

      Don’t waste your breathe complaining to Equifax, waste it complaining to your agile, responsive federal government.

      Sean ? September 13, 2017 1:38 PM

      Hopefully this breach will accelerate adoption of blockchain-based distributed ledger technologies in this field.

      Hopefully the government will mandate it, you mean?

      1. The market just is. It doesn’t succeed or fail.

        So fucking retarded. The sun just is, too. But if it explodes, it’s something of a problem.

        1. But is it a failure? Did the sun fail to reach some goal? No. Same with the market. The market itself has no particular goal. If you failed to reach your goal, that’s not the market’s fault. If you didn’t get what you want, that’s not an excuse to initiate force to get it.

          1. Yes, with respect to its role in sustaining human well-being, it failed by exploding. That’s what we mean when we say market failure. Its entire purpose (and it is a human construct, not a natural phenomenon) is to allocate goods and resources efficiently. Efficiency in the market ultimately refers to improving the lives of humans. When it doesn’t allocate goods and services efficiently, it’s called a market failure.

            These are basic concepts that anyone with an economics-centric political worldview needs to understand.

            1. And how are we to decide what the correct and efficient allocation of goods is?
              With a magic 8-ball? Last time I checked the government was much, MUCH shittier at deciding how to allocate resources, not to mention less fair.

              1. Last you checked you were spoonfed that idea rather than verified it. When I mentioned that the market is a human construct what that means is that it is constructed by humans via governments. No rules, no market. I take it we agree that the purpose of both governments and markets is to improve human well-being.

                Because simply worshiping the market and accepting its outcomes as good by definition is dumb. The only question is when the mass suicide is gonna happen.

                1. When I mentioned that the market is a human construct what that means is that it is constructed by humans via governments. No rules, no market.

                  Nope. No government is necessary to exchange resources.

                  Because simply worshiping the market and accepting its outcomes as good by definition is dumb.

                  Who said any outcome is good? I said that any outcome is just what it is. Your success or failure is not a success or failure on the part of the market.

              2. In this case, no one is asking the government to set prices or allocate goods. It’s being asked to set the rules of the game so that we’re protected when the market self organizes into a place where citizens are hurt. This appears to be the case with Equifax: the market forces de-prioritized security and consumer choice. In common parlance, the market failed the people of the country.

            2. Yes, with respect to its role in sustaining human well-being, it failed by exploding.

              Why can’t you understand this?

              Staying alive is a human goal, not the sun’s. The sun just is. It just does it’s thing.

              Buying or selling what you want for the price you want is a human goal. The market is a natural phenomenon that arises from human action associated with those goals.

              It allocates resources as efficiently as the humans involved will allow. The sun burns as long as its hydrogen fuel allows. They are both just natural phenomena.

              Maybe this is just semantics because yes, people CALL it a failure of the market, but it’s a misnomer. Just because there was an outcome unfavorable to you doesn’t mean the market failed. And it surely doesn’t mean that the remedy is the initiation of force and violence.

    2. I have been thinking about this actually. I don’t have any particular answer. These are just random thoughts I’ve had and I don’t posit them as forming a cogent position.

      One is that there should be legal repercussion people can take to deal with this. We do sign paperwork giving legal right to Equifax and other credit agencies to hold our data when we take out lines of credit, thus there is certain legal expectation on the part of the consumer to what they do.

      Another is that this is a problem that requires less centralized means of identification. These hacks will never end, we can pass 1000 laws and all of us can pat ourselves on the backs but these leaks will happen as long as there are very centralized forms of singular identification such as SS. And centralized repositories such as Equifax. Can we come up with more distributed and anonymized ways to get this type of information. Ultimately, credit bureaus are just information supplied to say something about an individuals credit risk, can we do this less centrally?

      Also, I don’t think that really fits the definition of Market Failure. I think he’s getting at just unpleasant outcomes from events, but that’s slightly different than my understanding of the term market failure, which has to do with failure of allocation of goods. I think at least.


      1. One is that there should be legal repercussion people can take to deal with this. We do sign paperwork giving legal right to Equifax and other credit agencies to hold our data when we take out lines of credit, thus there is certain legal expectation on the part of the consumer to what they do.

        There is likely some sort of tort here. Most privacy agreements say things like “we will do what we can to protect your personal information” or something like that. *shrug* But IANAL so I don’t really know.

      2. That is the strict definition of market failure, but a lot gets squished to fit the term. And usually it’s justifiable, I think. In this case, something about the costs not being fully borne by the involved parties, and maybe the opportunity for Pareto improvements. Certainly, there’s now the problem that creditors are not getting the service they paid for, and if it’s a recurring failure due to the nature of this particular market, it would probably fit the bill.

      3. We sign paperwork with our bank, our landlord, Macy’s etc. We have no contact with Equifax, Experian or the others–we have no legal relationship with them, yet they contract with the aforementioned to tell them whether we are trustworthy. We have no recourse if they say we aren’t, since they don’t work for us, we don’t pay them and they have no obligation to us.

        1. Naturally. You see the problem in paying the company that judges your credit-worthiness, right?

          I was too kind in my response below. Of course we are not their customers, but they still have customers. And while fraud harms us third parties, it does also harm their customers. Will it harm the customers enough to motivate them to compel notably better security from credit bureaus? We have to wait and see.

    3. You could avoid being Equifax’s product by refusing to apply for credit with anyone who reports to them.

      Unfortunately not practical anymore since the fedgov heavily regulates credit reporting agencies to the point where there’s really no competition. i.e. not the market’s fault.

      1. There is literally NOBODY who doesn’t report to them. It’s like suggesting you shouldn’t use the Internet. Sure, if you want to live off the grid, but if you want to eat normal food, live in a normal house (either rented or owned) and buy a computer you can’t not deal with EQUIFAX. In the long run maybe there might be a way to work this out, but how long are you willing to go without electricity? (good luck getting an account with your power company without a credit report). Or water?

      2. My thoughts exactly. Unfortunately, while there are lists of lenders who don’t pull from Equifax (most of which are outdated and not very reliable), there is no list of lenders that don’t report to them.

    4. The ‘market’ and law adapt, and the market ‘works’ beyond his simplistic description. If interests are not aligned enough that big errors regularly occur and cause misery, the rules should and will change to better align them.

      He makes an okay argument that this is an intractable market failure stemming from a principal-agent problem, but note that the dude also calls restaurants and food market failures.

  26. “”We welcome carrying a new tool that can help out not only our members, but the public, too. We welcome the opportunity,” he said. “But this is an additional workload and so it is the subject of bargaining.”…

    “The police union filed a similar unfair labor practice complaint last year when the department began a program to implement body cameras. Engstrand said the requirement for some officers to carry the cameras represented a change of working conditions that was not included in the police union contract.”

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