Trump's Executive Order Targeting the H-1B Visa Program Is Pure Theater

He is baiting opponents to sue him.

Donald Trump was back in campaign mode yesterday doing what he does best: Beat up on immigrants. But this time he didn't go after low-skilled undocumented workers. He trained

Todd Krainin

his fire on high-skilled foreigners on H-1B visas.

He travelled to the headquarters of Snap-On Inc, a tool manufacturer in Kenosha, Wisconsin, and announced that he was signing a "Buy American, Hire American" executive order to stop companies from using this program to replace high-skilled Americans with cheaper foreign workers. "Right now, widespread abuse in our immigration system is allowing American workers of all backgrounds to be replaced by workers brought in from other countries," Trump harrumphed.

This is complete and utter nonsense. There is no evidence that "widespread abuse" of the program exists much less that it is hurting American workers. Indeed, as I recently wrote, unemployment among Americans with advanced STEM degrees is about 3 percent and in certain specialized professions such as computer network architecture near 1 percent. In other words, fullest of full employment! Typically, STEM jobs go unfilled for several weeks longer than non-STEM jobs, suggesting a tight market for talent in those fields. Furthermore, H-1Bs are not "cheap" – they are paid almost $5,000 more than natives with bachelor's degrees in the same occupation.

Snap-On CEO Nick Pinchuk even complained to Trump about how hard it is for his company, which manufactures high-end diagnostic tools for the transportation industry, to find "workers with the necessary training for the high-tech work," according to a White House travel pool report.

But instead of reassuring him, Trump joked that he would take a "sledgehammer" to the H-1B visa program, one of the few avenues that folks like Pinchuk have to meet their labor needs. Trump declared that he would end the "random lottery" that is used to allocate the 85,000 H-1B visas handed out every year and replace it with a "merit-based" system that ensures that the visas go to the most skilled, best-paid immigrant workers. (This lottery, which draws twice more applications than the slots available, gets filled within few weeks of opening every year, leaving the unlucky employers cooling their heels for another year.) By this he presumably means that he wants to prioritize these visas for foreign techies with advanced degrees commanding higher wages.

Trump has ordered a review of the program. Regardless of what the review shows, the fact of the matter is that he can't implement radical reforms via executive order. Indeed, Theresa Brown of the Bipartisan Policy Center points out that the 85,000 H-1B cap and its method of allocation is set by statute. The 1965 Immigration and Nationalization Act expressly says: "the numerical limitations [pertaining to H-1B] shall be issued visas (or otherwise provided nonimmigrants status) in the order in which petitions are filed for such visas or status."

This means that Trump will need Congressional action to reform the program. And, indeed, there are a couple of bipartisan bills already in the works that want to make such reforms.

So why is Trump going it alone instead of working with Congress? After all, any executive action that messes with the existing system will be sued before it makes it through the door. One would have thought that the travel ban debacle would give him some pause.The only plausible explanation is that he is baiting opponents and wants litigation so that he can look like the hero valiantly trying to champion the cause of American workers.

It's a cynical strategy that isn't likely to accomplish much. And he wouldn't be the first president to play politics with this issue. His predecessor's games doomed immigration reform.

The tragedy, however, is that Trump has totally changed the conversation on immigration from where it needs to be. So far there was a consensus that whatever the case with low-skilled immigrants, America needed more—not fewer—foreign techies. After all, almost every other IT startup in Silicon Valley has an immigrant founder. Immigrant smarts have spun IT gold out of sand and made America the global high-tech leader. Now, scaring them away with tough talk is apparently the recipe for making America Great Again.

Sad!

Comments

[Idaho Bum]

Jesus, the photo of Trump's hole is creepy

[Citizen X - #6]

I still maintain that's actually a closeup of a plecostomus.

[SQRLSY One]

Amen! All we need to add, to complete the picture, is a Swastika tattoo at the tip of His tongue...

[$park? leftist poser]

Maybe a diamond Nazi grill too.

[The Last American Hero]

I thought it was from V for Vendetta.

[Tak Kak]

"The tragedy, however, is that Trump has totally changed the conversation on immigration from where it needs to be. So far there was a consensus that whatever the case with low-skilled immigrants, America needed more?not fewer?foreign techies."

I have to thank him for disrupting that terrible consensus then.

[mad.casual]

I have to thank him for disrupting that terrible consensus then.

Right, nevermind that people in the *private* industries that make the most extensive use of H1Bs have complained that the H1B visa program is broken for years before Trump and that the GAO cited fundamental flaws in the system that required 'tweaks' by the Obama Administration and that Shikha's fundamental argument in favor of low-wage/low-skilled immigrants is in direct thematic opposition to the H1B program... there was pristine consensus and Trump besmirched it simply by running for office and winning.

[HazelMeade]

Well, it's been broken because there just aren't enough H1-B visas available, so it was backlogged. I think the backlog cleared up since 2008, but maybe it piled up again.

[mad.casual]

Except that the Obama Administration's tweaking wasn't to make them easier to access, more available, or otherwise clear a/the backlog. There are/were various technical and financial interests that weren't so keen on seeing their talent/IP/secrets effectively co-opted and then outsourced.

And, again, the whole program is set up in rather direct opposition to equal immigration for all and/or immigration is a human right.

[A Cynic's Guide to Zen]

OT: Recipes that guarantee sex. Go.

[A Cynic's Guide to Zen]

I'll start.

6 Egg Yolks, 1/2 cup of sugar, mixed thoroughly in a bowl
1 Qt. heavy cream, add one vanilla bean plus seeds, brought to a boil and then covered removed from heat 15 mins

Strain cream, removing bean stalk
Slowly introduce cream into egg mixture
Pour mixture into 7-8 ounce ramekins placed in a large baking pan with edge taller than the ramekins
Add hot water halfway up the sides of the ramekins

Bake at 325 for 45 minutes

Sauce: Melt half-stick of unsalt. butter over medium heat. Add 1/2 cup brown sugar, teaspoon of salt and 1/2 cup heavy cream

stir the mixture with a rubber spatula until blended, boil 4 to 5 minutes.

Remove the mixture from the heat and stir teaspoon of vanilla extract. Cool.

[Crusty Juggler aka "Chad"]

Need: 1/2 oz eac of vodka, rum, gin, tequila, triple sec.
1oz each of sour mix, 1oz cola.
1 lemon slice.

Fill a cocktail shaker with ice. Pour vodka, rum, gin, tequila, triple sec, and sour mix over ice; cover and shake. Pour cocktail into a Collins or hurricane glass; top with splash of cola for color. Garnish with a lemon slice.

Boom, Long Island Ice Tea.

[Crusty Juggler aka "Chad"]

Need: a fuckton of oysters, two bottles of white wine, some butter, a knife.

Open bottle of wine.

Boil water in a large pot. Place oysters on a tray in the steam for 3-5 minutes. When some shells open, remove oysters. Open closed oysters with a knife. Splash oysters with melted butter. Eat. Unzip pants, pull out tackle, and wait.

[Citizen X - #6]

Whiskey. Repeat.

[loveconstitution1789]

Blue Crystal Meth Rock Candy for Breaking Bad
? cup water, ? cup light corn syrup, 2 cups granulated sugar, 2 tsp clear flavoring extract, 1 drop blue gel food coloring (I used Americolor Sky Blue gel coloring), Candy thermometer
Line a baking sheet with foil and spray the foil with nonstick cooking spray. In a medium saucepan, combine the water, corn syrup, and granulated sugar. Place the pan over medium-high heat, and stir until the sugar dissolves. Bring the mixture to a boil, then stop stirring and brush down the sides with a wet pastry brush to prevent sugar crystals from forming. Insert a candy thermometer. Continue to cook the candy without stirring until it reads 290-295 degrees Fahrenheit (143-146 C) on the thermometer. Watch the temperature carefully--a lower temperature might produce sticky candy, while a higher temperature runs the risk of producing green candy! Once at 290-295, take the pan off the heat and let it sit for a few moments, until bubbles stop breaking on the surface. Add the flavoring and a drop of food coloring, and stir everything together. Pour the candy onto the prepared baking sheet and tilt it so that it runs into a thin layer. Let it set completely at room temperature. Once set, break it into small pieces by hand. For the complete "crystal meth" experience, place the pieces in a large zip-top bag and smash them with a rolling pin until they are crushed. Store the candy in an airtight container at room temperature.

[The Last American Hero]

Handkerchief and ether.

[loveconstitution1789]

Ask: Does this smell like chloroform to you?

[Rebel Scum]

I look forward to Dalmia's expose' on Canadian immigration law and how it compares to the U.S. I won't hold my breath.

[Longtobefree]

"Regardless of what the review shows, the fact of the matter is that he can't implement radical reforms via executive order. Indeed, Theresa Brown of the Bipartisan Policy Center points out that the 85,000 H-1B cap and its method of allocation is set by statute."
Well, based on how many executive orders Obama signed that overrode statute, Trump can sure give it a try. Some of Obama's overreaches got slapped down by the courts, but a lot of them got a free pass. So try the court lottery first. If it fails, try legislation.

And once again, a co-mingling of legal and illegal immigration.

[mad.casual]

Well, based on how many executive orders Obama signed that overrode statute, Trump can sure give it a try.

Ooh... shiny;

On Feb. 17, 2009, President Obama signed into law the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 ("stimulus bill"), Public Law 111-5.[40] Section 1661 of the ARRA incorporates the Employ American Workers Act (EAWA) by Senators Sanders (I-Vt.) and Grassley (R-Iowa) to limit certain banks and other financial institutions from hiring H-1B workers unless they had offered positions to equally or better-qualified U.S. workers, and to prevent banks from hiring H-1B workers in occupations they had laid off U.S. workers from.

[HazelMeade]

H1-B immigration would be the legal kind. So you're in favor of it, right?

[Slocum]

It's not really immigration, though -- more like an indentured-servant guest worker program. H1-B visas are temporary and employees are effectively tied to their sponsor. The minimum salary is $65,000, which is not a low wage overall, but it is a low wage for tech workers in California. And, in any case, most H1-B holders are not paid that salary for long, because the biggest users of H1-B visas are outsourcing firms. They cycle employees through temporary positions in U.S. for training and then send them back to India where they continue to perform the same contract work for much less money.

It's not a healthy system. It would be much better to get rid of it and allow real skill-based immigration at the same level, where the workers would be genuine immigrants who planned to stay in the U.S. and who had real choices and bargaining power with respect to employers.

[MikeP]

And once again, a co-mingling of legal and illegal immigration.

Indeed, they should always be distinguished.

Virtually the entire problem with immigration is that there are laws against the migration of peaceable people. Recognizing that fact is the first step to fixing it.

[mad.casual]

Virtually the entire problem with immigration is that there are laws against the migration of peaceable people.

Yup. Entirety of the problem right there. Nowhere in human or evolutionary history can a single shred of evidence of a migratory people or organism entirely wiping out a native organism accidentally or by entirely passive means be found. Doesn't exist.

Europeans distributing out smallpox-laden blankets to indigenous Americans? Wholly the Natives' fault for not developing vaccines and finding the most libertarian way to achieve herd immunity faster.

[Mithrandir]

I think it's disingenuous to insinuate that the European arrivers to the Americas were peaceful persons.

They came, they saw, they conquered.

[HazelMeade]

Also there's the fact that Europeans where technologically more advanced than the Natives.

I mean, maybe if our immigration came from an alien species with warp drives, we would be in trouble, but we're talking about people from third-world countries. They aren't going to wipe us out with their superior technology.

[OldMexican Blankety Blank]

By this he presumably means that he wants to prioritize these visas for foreign techies with advanced degrees commanding higher wages.

The argument floated around by anti-immigrant xenophobes like those in the CIS and FAIR, and Tucker Carlson (the newest and most vociferous immigrantion critic in the media) is that companies were using H1B visas to get workers willimg to work for lower wages, positing the weirdest of admonitions possible: that somehow companies are immoral for looking for bargains.

Let's assume that the H1B visa program is revised and restricted so that companies are forced to use the program to bring only higher-paid brainiacs from China or India. Do you really expect the bigots at the CIS and Carlson to be happy, or should we expect to listen to new attacks on companies offering a HIGHER wage to a foreigner instead of a native-born? If you're honest about this, youbwill figure out that this immigration brouhaha has NOTHING to do with fairness or the market.

[mad.casual]

If you're honest about this, youbwill figure out that this immigration brouhaha has NOTHING to do with fairness or the market.

So... the libertarian position would be to take a sledgehammer to the whole program (preferably in the hands of a low-paid, low-skilled immigrant), right?

[Guevera]

The H1B program is used to drive down wages in tech. It's rife with fraud.

If you want to argue for open borders fine, buy as lo g as that's not the case ylthe H1B program let's companies defraud America and screw the workers.

I think a program for highly skilled people with rare specialties is a great idea. But you don't hire those people in the tens of thousands and pay them 45000-60000 a year.

The H1B program today exists because the very well paid directors of big companies don't think they should have to pay IT pros $100,000+ a year

[Fuck you, Shikha (Nunya)]

Well, the companies all tried outsourcing. Most seem to be bringing it back. However, and I don't give a shit what Sitka says, you're right about the fraud of H1B. It's a scam. The workers get screwed. Mostly it is the contract companies that bank.

Even the folks I know that are here on H1Bs hate it.

[MikeP]

The reason that workers who are on H-1Bs hate them is that they are limited in number, limited in duration, limited in choice of employer, and limited in applicable occupation -- and that they present ordinary hassles such as requiring periodic reentry, requiring reapproval on change of employer, etc.

Somehow I don't think you are going to argue that all those limits should be lifted.

[aelhues]

Aww, I was curious about about the EO on H1-B, but checked to see if Shikha wrote it, and then didn't read a word.

[Ken Shultz]

It's hard to believe that a President, in the United States of America, would make a campaign issue about something like this--especially in a swing state like Wisconsin that will likely decide whether he's reelected.

I'm mortified.

Is that what I'm supposed to say?

"This means that Trump will need Congressional action to reform the program. And, indeed, there are a couple of bipartisan bills already in the works that want to make such reforms."

So, reform is being considered in Congress and Trump is stumping his own position? Isn't that what Presidents are supposed to do, or is this another one of those 'deportation = enforcing the Fugitive Slave Act' moments?

Isn't Dalmia against using visas at all regadless of whether Congress has the enumerated power to set the rules of naturalization because immigrating to the United States is a right?

[HazelMeade]

Why the hell would people in Wisconsin care about H1-B workers?
Almost all of them go to Silicon Valley or a few other tech hubs, which Wisconsin is not.

[Ken Shultz]

The average people who voted for Trump in Wisconsin may not be STEM people, but average people care about being nudged out of opportunities by foreigners--especially if they have hopes for their children.

Oh why won't those pesky hicks stay down, huh, Hazel? They have no hope of escaping their blue collar, midwest lives anyway, huh?

And UW-Madison is a major research university with more than $1 billion spent on research last year.

[HazelMeade]

LOL. So you are saying that American kids are too dumb to compete with foreigners, but we should reserve tech jobs for relatively dumb Americans. Because what the US tech industry is for is to provide high-paying jobs to US kids, even if they aren't the best and brightest, not to develop the best products.

[Ken Shultz]

"Why the hell would people in Wisconsin care about H1-B workers?"

You asked that question.

I answered it.

Your contempt for average Americans has nothing to do with my answer. Those are your biases, not mine.

[HazelMeade]

You know, the whole point of my post below is that Americans AREN'T too dumb to compete with foreigners, because they just don't have as good an educational system.
And the reason graduate schools are full of foreigners isn't because there's too much competition to get into those programs. In fact, enrollment in STEM programs has been falling for years. The problem is that American kids just aren't enrolling in STEM fields, so the slots are getting filled by foreigners -
from lack of competition.

[chemjeff]

"The problem is that American kids just aren't enrolling in STEM fields, so the slots are getting filled by foreigners -
from lack of competition."

As someone in the STEM field, this is absolutely correct.

Part of the reason why is because American math & science education largely sucks. It goes through too many fads and too many kids wind up with the impression that it is all too complicated, too hard, too difficult, only "geniuses" and "Einsteins" can ever be scientists, etc.

By contrast, in my experience, the STEM training of foreign students tends to be based largely on memorization. Very little creative thinking. They can recall all sorts of technical information but they have a hard time piecing it all together into a coherent story.

[chemjeff]

Why don't those "pesky hicks" get a real education and a real career path? Huh?

If those "pesky hicks" sleep through highschool and wind up as an adult with the job skills of a 13-year-old, why should anyone be surprised that their job is outsourced to the cheapest 13-year-old worker on the planet?

Now if those "pesky hicks" go to college, go to trade school, get a real career path going, get a job that can't be outsourced like physical therapist, or plumber, or doctor, then good for them. But we likely wouldn't be calling them "pesky hicks". We'd be sneering at them as coastal/urban elites dictating to the hicks on how they should live their lives, amirite?

But if those "pesky hicks" expect a job to be handed to them just by virtue of being an American even when that person has minimal skills, then I have no sympathy for that person. Make something of yourself and get a real career and a real job Don't demand that Trump or anyone else rearrange the entire US economy so as to benefit your lazy ass.

And by the way, substitute "ghetto gangbangers" with "pesky hicks" in the above and the exact same conclusions apply.

[mad.casual]

Oh why won't those pesky hicks stay down, huh, Hazel? They have no hope of escaping their blue collar, midwest lives anyway, huh?

Virtually every jobs program touted by the left for assuaging the unemployed masses in (e.g.) flyover country (nominally or explicitly unemployed by free trade, energy regulations, environmental regulations, union and tax regulations, etc.) rather explicitly highlights training these people for high-skilled technology work that wouldn't necessarily require them to relocate. You don't even, exactly, have to limit it to flyover country; every revitalization project anywhere for the last decade, be it hicksville or podunk, Detroit or Baltimore, etc. has hinged on making some failed part of some urban center into the next Silicon Valley.

Much like the rest of America and/or libertarians 'opposed' to immigration finagling. I'm not against the H1B Visa program or people coming here to work, I'm opposed to government managed handouts from both pockets to competing interests. If you can't effectively balance employment and wealth/job redistribution from Georgia to Michigan to New York, you're guaranteed to be fucking it up if that triangle were expanded to include one or more oceans.

[HazelMeade]

If you can't effectively balance employment and wealth/job redistribution from Georgia to Michigan to New York,

What the fuck are you saying? That the government should "balance" geographical job distribution so people don't have to move? That's retarded.

Markets are crazy dynamic things. If people in Wisconsin don't want to have to move to Silicon Valley to get a tech job, tough fucking titties.

[Slocum]

Actually, they don't. Most H1-Bs are hired by outsourcing firms that provide contract workers to large companies all over the U.S.

[Eric Bana]

*It's hard to believe that a President, in the United States of America, would make a campaign issue about something like this--especially in a swing state like Wisconsin that will likely decide whether he's reelected.

I'm mortified.*

Jesus, Ken. Don't be disingenuous. The issue clearly isn't whether it's horrible that shitty politicians act like shitty politicians. The issue is why this is a shitty thing to do. Don't attack a straw man, as you well know you shouldn't.

[Ken Shultz]

"The issue clearly isn't whether it's horrible that shitty politicians act like shitty politicians. The issue is why this is a shitty thing to do."

You've really missed the point, here.

Read the whole thread. I am absolutely on point.

The issue is that Hazel genuinely doesn't understand a) Why Trump would make this pitch, and tha'ts because she doesn't understand b) why average American taxpayers don't want to pay for foreigners to go to graduate school.

Seriously. She doesn't get it.

Trump voters and their children are just a bunch of stupid hicks anyway! They're never going to be anything. Why do they care if they have to pay for the foreign elite to go to graduate school? What, are they crazy? Don't they know they're supposed to hate themselves as much as the elite do?

[Eric Bana]

It's hard to believe that a President, in the United States of America, would make a campaign issue about something like this--especially in a swing state like Wisconsin that will likely decide whether he's reelected.

I'm mortified.

Jesus, Ken. Don't be disingenuous. The issue clearly isn't whether it's horrible that shitty politicians act like shitty politicians. The issue is why this is a shitty thing to do. Don't attack a straw man, as you well know you shouldn't.

[HazelMeade]

You people fearing that those H1-B workers are going to come and steal your tech jobs are getting agitated about nothing. There aren't THAT MANY great tech workers in India and China. Seriously. There are lots of smart people but their education systems aren't as good and they don't turn out top level engineers, software developers and so forth. Lots of code-monkeys and IT support, sure, but very few Software Engineers of the calibre that US universities train.
Of course, the really smart Indian and Chinese kids go to US universities, where the graduate schools in CS and Engineering are upwards of 50% foreigners, but that's still a limited number of people, due to limited admissions at those schools. Those people are the elite of the elite, there just aren't masses of them clamoring to get into the country.

[Ken Shultz]

"Of course, the really smart Indian and Chinese kids go to US universities, where the graduate schools in CS and Engineering are upwards of 50% foreigners"

How much are federal and state government spending on these universities?

[HazelMeade]

Foreign students pay out-of-state tuition. They actually subsidize the US students.
Often, out of state of tuition is twice or more what the in-state tuition rate is.

[Ken Shultz]

The fact that state schools charge more to out of state students is more a function of people out of state not paying state taxes to support the school.

And research subsidizes STEM graduate students.

[HazelMeade]

Not really. As a STEM graduate student from Canada, I was unable to recieve research grant money directly. I worked as a Teaching Assistant instead. Funding pretty much has to come from private sources because the public grant stipulate that only US residents are eligible to be awarded Research Assistantships.

[Ken Shultz]

That money goes to support those schools and STEM programs.

Do the sources and uses analysis.

The facilities, professors, dormitories, and TA salaries all come from general revenue. The schools engage in research because it helps those programs and filters through to their bottom line.

[HazelMeade]

Yes, research supports the school. And foreign grad students do the research. Without getting paid for it, in most cases.

[Ken Shultz]

Incidentally, how well does using Canadian taxpayer's money to finance foreign students go over with voters in Canada?

How much does the Chinese government spend on public universities that primarily benefit foreign students?

I suspect the people of Wisconsin aren't much different from people everywhere. The flip side of "no taxation without representation" means that people think they should have say in how their money is spent--and I bet most Canadians, Chinese, ans Americans think their tax money should be spent for the benefit of their fellow countrymen--rather than foreigners.

It really isn't hard to understand.

[HazelMeade]

All countries have more or less the same system. Foreign students can come and work at research labs and pay tuition to attend schools, but they can't get paid research stipends. The US is no exception.

[Ken Shultz]

Just using Berkeley as an example, in fiscal 2016, of $674 million Berkeley spent on research, $478 million came from federal and state government.

http://vcresearch.berkeley.edu.....ch-numbers

478/674 = 71%

[HazelMeade]

Most public funding is restricted to US residents. It can be very hard to fund foreign graduate students unless there is a private research grant. Many of them work as teaching assistants so they get a stipend. Or else, if it's a very large lab with some big NIH grants they might be able to find a way to give a research stipend to a foreign student out of lab money (money being fungible) - but they can't be funded directly by a government grant.

[Ken Shultz]

You're telling me that foreign grad students at research universities don't benefit from research grants? Even IF IF IF what you are saying were true, money is fungible.

Regardless, you don't understand why spending taxpayer money on programs that are primarily enrolling foreigners might not go over well with average voters? Are you aware that average voters are also American taxpayers?

[HazelMeade]

Only very indirectly, such as the lab equipment is paid for by the NIH funding, so they get to use the lab equipment in their research. But can it be used to pay their tuition, room or board, NO. On very rare occasions you might see a foreign student funded out of "lab money" , where there is a mix of public and private funding sources for the lab. The public money can be allocated to spending on equipment, and the private money reserved for awarding a tuition scholarship to the student, but there is extremely rare. Most labs don't have that kind of spare cash lying around.

[Ken Shultz]

"Only very indirectly, such as . . . "

This is horse shit.

Sources and uses statements and frangibility are not difficult concepts to grasp--unless you're being willfully obtuse.

[Ken Shultz]

frangibility [fungibility]

Auto correct must have been programmed by a foreigner.

[HazelMeade]

You have no idea what you are talking about.
There is VERY LITTLE private research funding out there. Almost all of it is public and foreign students cannot receive grant money out of it. It is a rare and lucky foreign student that gets funded out of a private grant. Foreign students pay full out of state tuition, which is often tens of thousands of dollars a year. They are a net financial gain to American universities.

[Ken Shultz]

"Almost all of it is public and foreign students cannot receive grant money out of it."

Do you really not know what fungibility means? Have you really never seen a sources and uses analysis?

The money universities get for research goes to pay for stadiums and cafeteria's, too. And all that money comes out of the taxpayers' paychecks.

Yes, it also benefits foreign students, too. If it weren't for the taxpayers covering your costs, you'd still be off in some frozen Canadian shithole. If there's so little in the way of private research, that only underscores the point.

It's interesting, too, that you can't seem to get your head around the fact that we're talking about why Trump would make this pitch to average voters in Wisconsin. And that's not only interesting because you're the one that asked the question. It's also interesting that your obvious contempt for the taxpayers being forced to pay for you against their will--is the very reason Trump's pitch clicks so well.

Has it ever occurred to you (or Shikha Dalmia) that the reason white, blue collar, Americans think you despise them might be because you despise them? And why should they want to pay for universities (out of their paychecks) if and when the people who benefit from that a) aren't Americans and b) hold average Americans in contempt?

[HazelMeade]

The money universities get for research goes to pay for stadiums and cafeteria's, too.

This is so utterly false that I don't even know where to start. Research funding is FOR RESEARCH. The university literally CANNOT spend it building a stadium or cafeteria. You cannot take your $2.3 million NIH grant and spend it on a cafeteria because you feel like it. That money has to come out of some other funding bucket.

Foreign students pay tuition far in excess of the cost of educating them. They pay full out-of-state tuition and are ineligible for financial aid. It's probably the one funding stream that has the single greatest profit margin for US educational system. They are not net money losers. Being against accepting foreign students is like saying that we shouldn't sell cars to the Japanese because the Japanese would be unfairly benefiting from the military funding that GM gets. You argument is essentially "Money is fungible, so US casts would cost EVEN MORE if GM had to provide military vehicles for free, so therefore we're subsidizing the Japanese by allowing them to purchase US products!"
Derp.

it makes no fucking sense.
If a foreign person comes to New York and uses a public toilet does that make them a welfare queen? Let's ban tourism! We don't want tourist driving on publicly funded roads! Welfare queens!

[Ken Shultz]

There's a word for ingrates who live off the taxpayers. Has anyone ever called you a welfare queen, Hazel? Because that's what you act like. Maybe your insistence that the $1 billion a research university gets every year doesn't help foreigners because it's equally split up among native born American graduate students is ridiculous. How could you really not understand what the word "fungible" means?

That's like saying none of the money Wisconsin football makes only benefits the coaches. It's plain stupid! Money doesn't work that way.

You want average Americans to stop complaining about their tax money going to benefit foreign graduate students? Here's the first step: Stop biting the hand that fed you. You benefit from universities overwhelmingly supported through taxpayers--and yet you hold those taxpayers in total contempt.

Be ashamed, you ungrateful welfare queen.

[chemjeff]

What is your argument, Ken? That publicly-funded American universities should not accept even one foreign student?

[Ken Shultz]

If you can read everything I wrote and not know that it's answering this question:

"Why the hell would people in Wisconsin care about H1-B workers?

Then why would anyone bother to respond to you again in the future?

If addressing the question and referencing repeatedly doesn't help, then the answer isn't me answering the question again.

Maybe you need to go talk to a psychiatrist. Look at Ritalin or something.

[MikeP]

"Why the hell would people in Wisconsin care about H1-B workers?"

Still waiting for a citation that Trump went off on foreign students attending American universities.

In the absence of such a carefully thought out argument, I'm going to go with Occam's Razor on this one: people in Wisconsin care about H-1B workers because of raw protectionism and plain demagoguery.

[HazelMeade]

The $1 billion a year research university educates the foreigners and charges them tuition. We are selling them a product.

And you have no idea how university research funding works if you think universities can just go and spend their research grants on whatever they want. They are effectively government contracts. They have to account for where the money goes. Nevermind that the foreign grad student basically works for free, enabling the lab to apply for and receive grants based on their research - which they can't be paid from!

AT BEST, a foreign student might get tuition waived and a small stipend in exchange for teaching a class. Which a value-for-value exchange. And they have to report the tuition waiver as income and pay taxes on it. That isn't a subsidy to the student - it's a job. Often teaching assistants work 20 hours a week and then put in another 40 doing their research.

[MikeP]

I don't believe average voters have any concept of how much or how little taxpayer money goes to research universities and/or foreign students of those universities.

It is really stunning how far you have to reach to be against high skilled immigrants.

[Ken Shultz]

Yeah, I think they all just sit around, watching the corn grow, scratching themselves, eating with their hands, and generally just waiting around to accidentally shoot themselves while cleaning their guns.

Regardless of whether average people know that university STEM programs are dominated by foreigners, Donald Trump was making this point to them, right? Whether you think they knew about it before is immaterial.

[MikeP]

Citation? I'm coming up empty.

[HazelMeade]

STEM programs are dominated by foreigners because US kids aren't going into STEM programs, not because the foreign students are taking those slots. Most STEM programs do not have that kind of competition for admissions. Enrollment has been falling for years and they are under capacity.

What are US research labs supposed to do? Close up shop because they can't find American kids willing to spend 5 years in grad school pursuing a PhD on a measly $800/month stipend? Yeah, that will help American competitiveness, I'm sure. Let's just not do research unless we can find AMERICANS willing to do it.

[MikeP]

The complementary point is that there are 2.5 billion people carefully funneled by their home countries into a couple hundred thousand who graduate from top technical institutions every year and want to continue their education at the best universities in the world.

Presumably taxpayers are funding US research universities* in order to make them the best universities in the world. The best universities are even better with the best students in the world. Turning away people who pay full rides merely because of their condition of birth is frankly insane.

* SLD applies. But then without that funding these universities would be even more reliant on full tuition foreign students.

[HazelMeade]

Now he's not just against H1-B visas, he's against student visas too. Can't have them furriners benefiting from the US educational system! Them schools is publicly funded! Even if they pay tuition, I'm sure they are using the bathrooms or something! Those bathrooms come from public money!

I wonder if there is a form of legal immigration he isn't against.

[loveconstitution1789]

I am sure that you would love to show us where immigration is a right enumerated in the Constitution?

[MikeP]

Since the Constitution is specifically and exactly about the powers of government, not about the rights of people, perhaps the better question is where in the Constitution does the power of the federal government to control immigration appear.

[Ken Shultz]

You don't even know what this conversation is about--and you're the one that started it.

You conflating how I feel with how average Trump voters in Wisconsin feel is like necons calling my a terrorist sympathizer for pointing out that Al Qaeda actually had some legitimate gripes about our foreign policy.

It really betrays the same sort of prejudice. You're not just an elitist. You're a bigot.

You're a Canadian who hates average American taxpayers for not wanting to give you their money.

And that's not speculation. I don't even think you're arguing that you don't hate average Americans. Your argument is that average American deserve to be hated. Go back to Canada if you hate Americans so much--that way you can go make a living without parasiting off of the American taxpayers' money.

[chemjeff]

The bottom line, Ken, is that there are not enough domestic students available to fill all of the research assistantships at domestic universities. So what is your plan?

[HazelMeade]

You're a Canadian who hates average American taxpayers for not wanting to give you their money.

And that's not speculation. I don't even think you're arguing that you don't hate average Americans. Your argument is that average American deserve to be hated. Go back to Canada if you hate Americans so much--

You're totally fucking unhinged.

[mad.casual]

It is really stunning how far you have to reach to be against high skilled immigrants.

Again, the issue isn't, rather explicitly, being against high-skilled immigrants as much as government finagling of the program(s).

HazelMeade says it herself, there aren't that many foreign-born tech geniuses. The system is inherently getting mostly entry-level technicians and offering them below-grade pay and frequently (or not infrequently) doing so in order for these individuals to turn around and take their skills and trade back to their nation of origin. Not necessarily privately-held corporations in these foreign countries openly and admittedly game the system in this manner. Moreover, all of this is done while, at the same time, we pay ex-coal miners in KY to learn to code after we put them out of work with the clean air act.

Highly-skilled individuals coming to the US of their own free will to live and work is one thing. The fact that we are talking about the H1B Visa *program* inherently demonstrates that is not what we're talking about as much as our government tipping the scales in their favor. Even if you point out that it's a boon for Americans to do such a thing, you're effectively OKing the government to manipulate trade, immigration, and markets because some immigration is good or immigration is a right not enshrined in The Constitution but is something they should be involved in.

[MikeP]

Even if you point out that it's a boon for Americans to do such a thing, you're effectively OKing the government to manipulate trade, immigration, and markets because some immigration is good or immigration is a right not enshrined in The Constitution but is something they should be involved in.

?

It's the prohibition of immigration that is the government manipulation here.

I am all for reforming H-1B visas. They should be (a) without quota, (b) without expiration, and (c) not bind an employee to a specific employer.

Then maybe we'd stop hearing these complaints about their misuse, since they would then represent completely free participants in the labor market.

[HazelMeade]

@mad.casual

Actually, the main reason the H1-B program is popular is because it is the one "temporary" visa that supports "dual intent". Which is to say, that you are allowed to pursue permanent residency through the employer sponsorship route while living and working in the US on an H1-B. it is the primary path to legal immigration for employment sponsorships. Since the employment sponsorship can take 5 years to process, the H1-B, renewable for up to 6 years provides just enough time to legally immigrate.

The H1-B program is ALL ABOUT highly skilled individuals coming to the US to immigrate legally. it is the main door to legal immigration via the employment sponsorship route.

[HazelMeade]

All I'm saying is, if you lifted the H1-B cap, we're not going to be suddenly flooded by crazy good programmers who are going to take all the jobs away from American tech workers and cause wages to collapse. There are good foreign programmers, there just aren't THAT MANY of them. There aren't so many that it's likely to be a problem for US workers to compete with them.

[chemjeff]

Let me guess, 30+ comments complaining about Shikha?

[Ken Shultz]

Write stupid shit on a regular basis, and what do expect in response--a dissertation on air quality?

[MikeP]

Arguing against high skilled immigration requires an incredible amount of economically backwards thinking that approaches the delusional.

It is really astonishing that people who otherwise take libertarian or free market positions can be against it.

[Longtobefree]

Substituting personal experience for uncited statistics and studies:
I worked 45 years in the computer field, all of it large mainframe systems, using the COBOL programming language. Which is a skill anyone with patience and average intelligence can learn in 6 months.
I have a BS degree, which was irrelevant to the field. (When I graduated, there were no computer degrees, I am old and retired) I worked with many programmers who were not American born, some good, some not so good, just like the American born. Some were on H1B visas, some were here legally through other means. In no case was there the supposed "highly skilled, unavailable from US citizens" distinction. They were just programmers like all the rest of the team. What was consistent among the H1B visa holders was that they worked for contract firms that had gotten the visas in the lottery, and those companies held on to the workers passports so they could not work for anyone else. The client companies paid the same billing rate for everyone, but the visa holders, in general, were paid less by the contract firms than the US born citizens.
It may be that there are some H1B holders that are doing magic stuff that no one in the US can do, but all of my direct experience is that it is a scam to get low wage workers.

[OldMexican Blankety Blank]

but all of my direct experience is that it is a scam [sic] to get low wage workers.

One good thing is coming from this immigration debate, and that is that at last the closeted Marxists are breaking down the door with flamboyant glee: "?Ay, pap?!"

So you're saying that looking for bargains is a "scam"?

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

This is a subject which really needs a deep dive and I've yet to see it.

I have seen an influx of foreign born H1B Visa holders in my field. From a standpoint of personal (anecdotal) experience, it was a mix. Some were good, some were awful, however, even the good ones had a very narrow experience set and were very poor and had lousy diagnostic skills outside of their training. Even within their training, I found that they were competent at 'building' a system (setting it up correctly) but were uniquely awful at problem solving when things went wrong. As a colleague of mine once said of our H1B Visa colleagues, "the manual tells you how to set it up, it doesn't tell you how to fix it when things go sideways."

But there are multiple story angles here. The companies hiring the H1B Visas openly claim they can't find candidates with the skillsets they need. I tend to not believe this. I think there's something else going on, and yes, the unspoken driver might be: At what I'm willing to pay.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt-- there is a magic pinpoint skillset that's hard to find in the native population.

If that's the case, then there are two new angles to explore:

1. Why aren't Americans pursuing these highly in demand skillsets.
2. Are the colleges and universities (and other educational institutions) ignoring these high-demand skillsets-- are they failing to respond to market conditions and turn out or even offer students the pathways to fulfill these requiremements?

If it's the former, then why aren't young people flocking to these fields? Are my preconceptions true, that millennials are too busy pursuing photography, printmaking and French Literature degrees? Are they just picking anything because there are government loans available with no connection to an ROI on your education tab?

If it's the latter, are colleges disincentivised to provide these education tracts because again, there's no connection to the graduates they churn out and their success after college?

Something's going on and I'm not really hearing it covered well anywhere.

[HazelMeade]

It's the student loan program. The US offers financial aid to students at the same interest rates and on the same terms regardless of what field of study the student enters.

This effectively denies the student price signals he or she would otherwise receive about which skills are in demand.
Many students might be aware on some level that STEM fields pay more, but they are also harder, and a student will have an easier time getting As in a liberal arts field. Discount rates being what they are, a lot of students don't think ahead 4 years to where they are going to get a job.

And then there's the idea that we tell students to pursue an occupation they will enjoy, which translates to "do some thing fun", which pretty much means, take the fun classes. And thus you have film studies at overcapacity and nobody going into the School of Mines.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

I too believe this is true, but it so tickles all of my preconceptions, I'm willing to entertain many theories at this point.

[Len Bias]

I also believe this. People believe that either the US education system fails us, or that all STEM spots in our univiersitiez are taken by the Indian or Chinese. In reality, many American students feel like college is a time to find themselves and major in the humanities.

[HazelMeade]

Well, an H1-B is not transferrable to another company, but the employer cannot literally "hold onto the workers passport". If that's happening it's fucking illegal.

The problem is that because it isn't transferable the employee cannot switch jobs, which reduces his negotiating leverage.

[XM]

Some of these STEM jobs are more white collar / administrative positions. Lots of kids with STEM degrees might get office or lab jobs somewhere where they won't write code or create software.

I helped process H1-B visas at USCIS, and had a chance to glance over the applications. The Indian applicants (winners are picked by lottery) send supporting documents that are maybe the size of a big dictionary you might have used in the 90's. The companies and colleges send boatloads of paperwork detailing their contribution to the field, which sometime span decades. These people are cream of the crop and their services were requested by the likes of IBM and Microsoft.

Are are Americans just as talented ready to take those jobs? Probably. But the employment offer letters that I read made it CLEAR that this was a contract / at will position. The salary is impressive, but it's usually just an assignment. These companies do NOT want to get locked down in long term pensions, healthcare benefits and unionization. Working at USCIS made realize (even more) the duplicity of these dem donors who run the tech business.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

The salary is impressive, but it's usually just an assignment. These companies do NOT want to get locked down in long term pensions, healthcare benefits and unionization. Working at USCIS made realize (even more) the duplicity of these dem donors who run the tech business.

That makes as much sense as anything.

I think it's more complicated than "There are no Americans with this skillset".

[HazelMeade]

You'll have a hard time finding ANY professional jobs that are not "at will" employment. That doesn't exist in professional fields. There are no defined benefit pensions or unions either. You get a 401(k) and healthcare, as the norm.

Defined benefit pensions, unions, job security, etc are features of lower-class manufacturing work. That just isn't how things are done in the professional world.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Defined benefit pensions, unions, job security, etc are features of lower-class manufacturing work

Except in government.

[mad.casual]

Only at Reason do we get libertarians arguing in defense of a program where the government literally and explicitly unequally decides both the number and salary at which those people will imported, hired, and retained/paid from outside it's own borders.

In the past, I and others have wondered about how (e.g.) the Germans woke up one day to discover that they were the baddies. I wonder if this manner of approved government-mandated redistribution in light of a supposed opioid epidemic couldn't, in some future retrospective, be recast as some manner of Holodomor. I mean, if you were liberally onboarding/naturalizing half of Eastern Europe why the fuck would or should Hungarians, Romanians, Czechs, or even the Muskovites, Georgians, and Chechens give two shits about the dumb hicks in the Ukraine who can't even feed themselves?

[MikeP]

Only at Reason do we get libertarians arguing in defense of a program where the government literally and explicitly unequally decides both the number and salary at which those people will imported, hired, and retained/paid from outside it's own borders.

The only number and salary where the government would not be deciding is "what the market will bear" and "what the market will bear", respectively.

But you seem to be against that.

[mad.casual]

The only number and salary where the government would not be deciding is "what the market will bear" and "what the market will bear", respectively.

You're talking about libertopia. I'm talking about the H1B visa program. Not only that, you're talking about your libertopia as being invoked when Congress and other top men/special interests magically get the H1B special sauce just right.

[MikeP]

I'm talking about the H1B visa program.

No, you were accusing people who were talking about the H-1B visa program of specifically supporting the "government literally and explicitly unequally decides both the number and salary at which those people will imported". If you are now talking about that program, you must now count yourselves with that number.

...when Congress and other top men/special interests magically get the H1B special sauce just right.

It doesn't need to be just right to be better. Any improvement is an improvement. Raise the cap to a million so it doesn't get hit, allow easy transfer of employees between employers, and stop having cows that employers might take advantage of the program to hire cheaper employees.

It's not that much to ask. Strangely, in any other setting, removing government restraints and allowing lower costs of production would be celebrated by libertarians.

[HazelMeade]

One of the major reforms that libertarians advocate is to make the H1-B transferrable, which would improve the negotiating leverage of foreign workers and keep them from depressing wages. Not that there's really any evidence that H1-B workers hold down wages - since the employer has to pay them the "prevailing" wage by law. But still it would make it slightly less likely that there's any wage shenanigans going on.

[mad.casual]

One of the major reforms that libertarians advocate is to make the H1-B transferrable, which would improve the negotiating leverage of foreign workers and keep them from depressing wages.

So we're clear, these are the sort of libertarians who support the government still controlling who can and can't enter the country, what work they can and can't do, and doing so in a manner that addresses (vitual or non-existent) wage disparities, right comrade?

Do I/we get to wonder if these libertarians also support regulations on carbon emissions, renewable energy subsidies, foreign aid, nationalized or single-payer healthcare or do we just assume that because somebody somewhere can remotely interpret their actions or intentions as libertarian, they're members of the tribe?

[MikeP]

So we're clear, these are the sort of libertarians who support the government still controlling who can and can't enter the country, what work they can and can't do, and doing so in a manner that addresses (vitual or non-existent) wage disparities, right comrade?

Just so we're clear, what is your proposal?

[HazelMeade]

Obviously in an ideal situation there would be no H1-B program because anyone could come here and get a job.
But if your complaint is that H1-B workers depress wages because they can't switch jobs, then the solution is to allow H1-B workers to switch jobs. Besides, the H1-B cap is 85,000 visas which is piddling number of people compared to the number of US born tech workers. It's a drop in the bucket.

[mad.casual]

Besides, the H1-B cap is 85,000 visas which is piddling number of people compared to the number of US born tech workers. It's a drop in the bucket.

It also happens to be rather piddly relative to the number of naturalized citizens annually. It's entirely possible Trump could eliminate the H1B program and 85,000 more foreign-born bachelor's holders show up within our borders in the following year. Or 800,000 immigrants show up and 10% earn their degrees here. It's entirely possible that, two years after that, Bernie Sanders gets elected and fucks every single one of them over by offering everyone a free college education and a $15 minimum wage.

The only reason to keep and tweak the H1B visa program is because you think that, after fucking up the native intellectual capital generation system the government will somehow get it right when importing the same/replacement capital (and owes no debt to the native, but not necessarily born, capital that it fucked up) or at least won't continue to fuck it up too badly.

[MikeP]

...after fucking up the native intellectual capital generation system...

Total non sequitur.

On the one hand you are practically advocating slavery in keeping technically competent natives on a technical track when they elect to leave it. On the other hand foreign societies have already done the hard work of handing the US technically gifted 20 year olds perfectly willing to study and work in this country, and you think the US government is going to mess that up in the same way.

There are three obvious reasons to keep the H-1B visa or something similar that is welcoming of high skilled immigration: (a) the US should not abrogate peaceable individuals' unalienable rights, (b) H-1B visa holders are unquestionably net producers for the economy, and (c) by drawing high skilled labor to the US while it's the most productive economy in the world, it gets to retain that lead and all the benefits that accrue to the rest of the economy.

The only reason I can see to get rid of paths of high skilled immigration is plain old nationalist pride, envy, or protectionism. There is certainly no economically defensible reason.

[HazelMeade]

The value of the H1B program is that it is one more legal avenue for people to pursue happiness. I prefer to make things legal, rather than to make them illegal.

[pxm]

Ceteris Paribus any additional supply of X will depress the price of X; pretty sure that's econ 101 land. Also the "prevailing wage" is only applicable to jobs with compensation less than $60K a year or applicants with less than a Master's degree.

[Ken Shultz]

Incidentally, student visas are largely a relic of the Cold War.

The hope was that if the elite in countries that were an ideological battlefield came to the United States and absorbed American culture, then once they graduated to power in their home countries, they would be more in tune with and sympathetic towards the Untied States.

All the stuff about diversity was secondary to that right up until the end of the Cold War.

It sort of backfired. From 9/11 and up to now, what we've generally imported is an elitist foreign class that isn't hardly even interested in going back home but is also, somehow, contemptuous of average Americans.

[HazelMeade]

Ken Shultz, libertarian, thinks that people shouldn't be allowed to go to school in other countries.
Ken Shultz, libertarian, thinks that people should have to suck up to flag-worshipping working class white people in order to pursue happiness.
Ken Shultz, libertarian, thinks that in order to love America, you have to love flag-worshipping white working class people - because flag-worshipping working class white people instrinsically define America in a way that non-white, non-working-class, non-flag-worshipping people don't. Because flagwaving working class white people are "real Americans" and everyone else isn't.
Ken Shultz, libertarian, doesn't think your really an "American" unless you're a member of the white working class.

[Ken Shultz]

If you read what I wrote and come to those conclusions, then you're blind.

If your response to being accused of hating average Americans is that average Americans deserve to be hated, then you might be someone who hates average Americans.

[Ken Shultz]

Nothing wrong with rethinking these policies. No matter where you land on the issue of student visas, democracy is the appropriate format within which to have this discussion, and if we don't want average Americans to express themselves through their President and congress on this issue in a way that isn't expansive and tolerant, then the first thing we should do is work to convince average Americans that the foreign elitists they're paying for aren't contemptuous of average Americans.

That would need to be true to be an effective strategy, of course, and watching immigrants who genuinely are contemptuous of average Americans pontificate on how much contempt they have for average Americans--for various reasons--really isn't helping the situation any.

This piece and the comments under it largely undermine the argument for open immigration.

[LarryWilson]

I'm assuming this is so he can get a better price on his own imported H1B visa purchase when he decides to trade it in.

She's not getting any younger.

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[pxm]

I thought it was well-understood that the whole H1B program is by and large a labor cost arbitrage for occupations with >$60K market cleaning wage? There's a reason why a handful of indian staffing companies dominate the application process: you can either get a sql server DBA for $90K a year, or you can get an H1B one for little north of $60K a year.