Trans

Everybody Agrees This Trans Wrestler Should Compete With Boys, but Government Is the Barrier

Culture is adapting, slowly. Forced solutions make things messier.

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Mack Beggs
Leslie Plaza Johnson/Icon Sportswire/Newscom

Mack Beggs should have been wrestling with the boys. Let's just start with that, but note the lack of use of words like "required" or "mandated" or other suggestions of involuntary placement.

Beggs won the Texas state high school championship in his weight class over the weekend. This victory became international news because Beggs actually competed solely against and defeated girls. Beggs is transgender, transitioning from female to male. He is taking testosterone under a doctor's care, which potentially gives him quite a leg up (pun fully intended) over his female competitors.

When something this awkward happens, inflexible regulations are often to blame, and that's partly the case here. Texas' athletics rules require athletes to participate in sex-segregated sports based on what they've listed on their birth certificates. And while steroids are generally banned substances for athletes, there is an exception for those who have doctor's orders for valid medical treatments, as what has happened here.

So, really, it's the state's fault this all happened. And not a few people are angry about it. There has been a lawsuit by the parent of a competitor to try to stop Beggs from wrestling because the hormone treatments enhance muscle growth and give him an advantage (though also keep in mind that wrestling has weight classes to help control advantages that result from size differences). The Dallas News notes that the controversy probably wouldn't have happened in other states because Beggs would have been wrestling males.

The News also suggests that the rule might not be changing anytime soon, so Beggs, currently a junior, could be put in this position again next year.

As is typical with transgender issues, there's an interest in trying to push through the simplest possible solution that happens to align with one's pre-existing issues of the cultural conflict. Accommodate everybody who declares themselves transgender! Or refuse to accommodate transgender people at all and insist it's not a real thing!

The first solution leads to fears of gaming the system—that athletes will take advantage, in this case men competing as women, obviously. It smacks of the same argument about transgender women in bathrooms—the idea that predatory men who are not actually transgender will "take advantage" of the law and use it to victimize women and avoid the consequences. It's a creepy attitude, denying one group of citizens appropriate treatment out of fears that some other group of people will do bad things as a consequence. Consider this approach in the terms of nanny state bans and the justifications for the drug war and realize that it's awful.

As far as the second solution, it's a terrible idea for a state school system or government to weigh in on the scientific validity of transgender people. It's not for the state to decide whether somebody's experience changing gender is based on something real or not. It's a situation that exists and will continue to exist. It's not going to go away. I've previously argued against government bans on "reparative therapy" (the idea that homosexuality and transgenderism can be "cured" with psychotherapy) partly because it puts the government in the position of determining what is and is not a legitimate application of social science. To the extent that the fields of psychology and child development and several other social sciences are still trying to navigate the increasing numbers of youths identifying as transgender, it's not a situation that calls for government referees.

Unfortunately, as the school bathroom and facilities battles have highlighted, federal discrimination law and Title IX have put the government in the position of having to play a role. Government facilities should accommodate transgender people as much as possible for no reason other than acceptance that we control our own bodies and identities, not the government. Any government intervention based on a person's identity should be based on legitimate claims of fraud.

In the case of Beggs, everybody seems to be in agreement here (well, except maybe for those who think Beggs shouldn't wrestle at all, which is like trying to solve the public bathroom conflict by banning transgender people from using them entirely): Beggs should be wrestling boys. If the hormone discrepancy is a source of conflict, maybe that's a good reason for us to be rethinking what role the government plays in moderating performance-enhancing drugs in the first place. Reason's written a ton on that subject.

There isn't a real crisis here—which is itself a kind of fascinating look at how the needle has moved in public opinion on transgender issues. It's a complex hammering out of a future that can be awkward and uncomfortable to see play out. The general government attitude should be a bias toward accommodation, but much like what happened with same-sex marriage recognition, the state and local-level fiddling and experimentation trying to hammer out policies are more likely to lead to comfortable communities than a blanket, top-down solution from the feds. And I say that as somebody who believes that the government should treat trans people according to their chosen sex.

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  1. It’s not for the state to decide whether somebody’s experience changing gender is based on something real or not. It’s a situation that exists and will continue to exist. It’s not going to go away.

    What if we put our fingers in our ears and yell LA LA LA MENTAL ILLNESS as loud as we can?

    1. I know. It’s like everyone complains that people with bulimia have a ‘mental illness’. Forget that. Maybe in their mind they just feel like they’re fat, bigot.

        1. Yeah, because Tulpa would obviously point out the lunacy of your position.

      1. Hey, from a libertarian position I don’t really see much of a difference. If a bulimic wants to trash their body it ain’t any of my business.

        1. but this person wants to make his/her decision your business and would not mind govt being part of the deal. If you want to inject some drugs, okay but that’s doesn’t make an anatomical female into a male.

          1. Does this issue have anything to do with bulimics or transgendered people making it my business??

            Nah. Just some guy wants to wrestle people whom have similar hormone levels. Rather than keep winning against the weaker group of people with dissimilar hormone levels. And the State is the one saying no to that. Some testosterone-filled wrestler wrestling other testosterone-filled wrestlers instead of wrestling the testosterone deficient doesn’t effect me and is none of my business. The State shouldn’t be the arbiter of this, nor the Voters. Ain’t none of my concern, privatize the schools and let ’em do whatever to best cater to the customers.

            1. So what you’re saying is we just need a division for steroid users?

      2. You mean just bulimia (extreme appetite, often of a temporary nature)? Or bulimia nervosa, the behavior pattern of people who repeatedly stuff themselves & then vomit or induce catharsis?

    2. What if we put our fingers in our ears and yell LA LA LA MENTAL ILLNESS as loud as we can?

      By “we” do you mean these guys:

      1. Position Statement on Medical Necessity of Treatment, Sex Reassignment, and Insurance Coverage in the U.S.A.

        The World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) is an international, interdisciplinary, professional association devoted to the understanding and treatment of individuals with Gender Dysphoria (GD). Founded in 1979, and currently with over 1500 medical, mental health, social scientist, and legal professional members, all of whom are engaged in clinical practice and/or research that affects the lives of transgender and transsexual people, WPATH is the oldest professional association in the world that continuously has been concerned with this clinical specialty.

      2. Gender Dysphoria (GD), often associated with transsexualism, is a condition recognized in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, (DSM-5, 2013), published by the American Psychiatric Association. Previous nomenclature for gender dysphoria includes transsexualism and gender identity disorder (GID), conditions which are also recognized in the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems, Tenth Revision, published by the World Health Organization, of which the United States is a member. Nomenclature is subject to changes, and new terminology and classifications may be arrived at by various medical organizations or administrative bodies, but these events shall not in themselves change the meaning or intent of this WPATH statement.

      3. 1 American Academy of Pediatrics, 1999.

        2 Fraser L and De Cuypere G, 2016.

        are well into adulthood. The various The DSM-5 descriptive criteria for gender dysphoria were developed to aid in diagnosis and treatment to alleviate the clinically significant distress and impairment that is frequently, though not universally, associated with transsexual and transgender conditions.

    3. Does it have a vag? Then it is a girl. Sorry everyone.
      The girls have a legitimate gripe however since it can now be stronger and they cannot do the same thing. And this guy/girl is messed up in the head. Tough life for it.

      We need to have a 3 year long moral debate on whether or not a few people with some serious mental issues can legally marry their car and take out a life insurance policy in case it is destroyed in an accident. That way that person can be monetarily indemnified for his tragic circumstance. Never mind if it is sound rational, sane or outlandishly grasping for a problem that only a few disturbed people have.

      Sorry for people who think they are the opposite sex or are sexually attracted to their car.

  2. Beggs is transgender, transitioning from female to male. He is taking testosterone under a doctor’s care, which potentially gives him quite a leg up (pun fully intended) over his female competitors.

    It’s helpful to start these articles with a definition of terms.

    Beggs is transitioning from female to male and we’re using the ‘He’ pronoun. Scott, is this your choice of pronoun, or is Beggs referring to hxself as “he”?

    In the case of Beggs, everybody seems to be in agreement here (well, except maybe for those who think Beggs shouldn’t wrestle at all, which is like trying to solve the public bathroom conflict by banning transgender people from using them entirely): Beggs should be wrestling boys.

    Also, I don’t see anywhere (I haven’t dug into the links) except for the above regarding who Beggs thinks hx should be wrestling with. Does the ‘everybody’ above include Beggs as well? Since the article indicates government is the barrier here, it seems that maybe Beggs agrees that hx should be wrestling with the boys?

    1. I haven’t looked at the above links specifically, but the other articles I’ve read about Beggs, consistently stated that he wanted to wrestle against boys.

      1. I think that’s laudable. Again, the subtext I find interesting is how this whole transgender thing utterly fucks up the traditional identity politics game.

  3. Seems like the real problem is the state has gender-separated sports to begin with.

    There should just be “wrestling” and not “boys wrestling” and “girls wrestling”.

    I guess that makes me a misogynist. Although to be a misogynist I would have to believe the sexes are separate but unequal.

    In other words, whatever way the wind blows I am always wrong. So why should I even give a flying fuck?

    1. So why should I even give a flying fuck?

      Because we’re all in this together.

      *hugs*

    2. There should just be “wrestling” and not “boys wrestling” and “girls wrestling”

      Yeah, why can’t we do that? I can already see the problems some will voice when boys continue winning these wrestling events because they have a natural advantage (testosterone) like Beggs un-naturally had.

      Buzzfeed: “We need to talk about latent misogyny in wrestling events”

      Twitter: #WrestlingSoMale

      Reason: “Woke Minds and Intersectional Solidarity means that men should not be winning all of these wrestling events, bigot”

      1. “There should just be “wrestling” and not “boys wrestling” and “girls wrestling””

        The pussy grabbing would be yuge.

      2. Just make some new weight classes under “featherweight” then. An nicely divided weight class system that takes into account both typical male and female body types should naturally cause categories where persons of equal muscle mass are paired against persons of equal muscle mass regardless of sex, gender, or any other trait.

    3. That would be pretty much the end of any serious participation of women in wrestling. Maybe one woman in a thousand would be able to hold her own against the men.

      1. That’s less true in wrestling than other sports, particularly at the HS level. They can be pretty competitive in the lighter weight classes where the more masculine female upper classmen are more than a match for the late-blooming freshman and sophomore boys they often come up against.

        1. Plus, awkward boners. Advantage: girls.

          1. Yeah, that too. I always felt sorry for the kids that drew a match against a girl. You’re gonna get mocked the whole bus ride back regardless of the outcome.

          2. “Full Nelson” would take on a whole new meaning.

        2. That seems pretty unlikely. Freshmen boys slaughter varsity girls in sports like basketball, and that’s not controlling for weight.

          1. Yes, boys who have already gained puberty’s benefits do have quite an easy time with girls of any age in most sports. The problem is that HS wrestlers in the sub-120 lb range usually haven’t. On top of that, in a sport like basketball the athleticism advantage boys possess is far more important to the overall outcome than it is in wrestling, especially at the early HS level where the outcome is better correlated with the conditioning and technique advantage.

            I’ve also seen it happen on multiple occasions. We had co-ed wrestling in HS and there were plenty of girls who were passable wrestlers. They were fewer and fewer as you moved up in weight, but that’s totally unsurprising.

            1. what happened in moving from under- to upper-classmen? Seems a junior or senior at the lower weights would be a tougher match than the freshman. Maybe I’m wrong. The question is sincere.

    4. I’m not going to say that there shouldn’t be girls sports. Whatever there is demand for, there should be. And I think girls/women will always want leagues where they can be competitive.

      But this is necessarily an acknowledgement that sex is a real thing that makes a difference when it comes to strength and certain kinds of athletic ability.

      I’m all for accommodating transgender people in reasonable ways. But that doesn’t mean you get easy answers to every tricky situation that comes up.

      1. “But this is necessarily an acknowledgement that sex is a real thing that makes a difference when it comes to strength and certain kinds of athletic ability.”

        I have it on good authority that this all just a social construct and that you don’t realize this because you’ve been raised in our hetero-normative patriarchal bigoted society, bigot.

        1. It is all just a social construct when you saying so is convenient.

        2. Gender is a social construct. Sex is inherent.

      2. But this is necessarily an acknowledgment that sex is a real thing that makes a difference when it comes to strength and certain kinds of athletic ability.

        It absolutely is an acknowledgment of that. And that brings up the question if sex is a real thing with real biological differences, how can your state of mind change that? And if it can, then why can’t it change biological reality in other ways? if it is possible to be transgender, then it should be equally possible to be transspecies or transrace or trans anything else.

        1. Transfat?

          1. A fat person trapped in a body with a high metabolism.

            1. That’s thin to fat transfat. I was thinking fat to thin transfat.

              1. A thin person trapped in the body of one of John’s desires?

                1. Inside every thin person is a fat one trying to get out because it’s very uncomfortable.

        2. if it is possible to be transgender, then it should be equally possible to be transspecies or transrace or trans anything else.

          Maureen Ponderosa and Rachel Dolezal agree.

          1. I actually think we should encourage people to be trans-race. It would really complicate the racial grievance industry.

            1. Fun fact: Dolezal is sticking with it, even giving the same line of reasoning:

              “I do think a more complex label would be helpful, but we don’t really have that vocabulary,” Dolezal told The Guardian. “I feel like the idea of being trans-black would be much more accurate than ‘I’m white.’ Because, you know, I’m not white . . . Calling myself black feels more accurate than saying I’m white.”

              1. “Calling myself black feels more accurate than saying I’m white.”

                Yes, please ignore the obvious reality of what I am; pretend that I’m something else or the problem is you. When did we reach the point not just of supporting delusion, but insisting that govt be part of it.

            2. I actually think we should encourage people to be trans-race. It would really complicate the racial grievance industry.

              We already do. Thomas Sowell and Clarence Thomas are both withe men; Condoleezza Rice is a white woman.

        3. I think there is reason to believe that transgender is a real thing in ways that being trans-species can’t be. But it definitely doesn’t mean that a person is actually, literally the other sex. (And I really don’t think there are many that claim otherwise).

          Being transgender is always going to be difficult because it really is a disorder and not just an alternative lifestyle. That sucks for people dealing with it, but life just sucks sometimes.

          1. I think there is reason to believe that transgender is a real thing in ways that being trans-species can’t be.

            I think your thinking is too contemporary. 60 yrs. ago, Beggs’ doctor wouldn’t have been able to crush enough bull testicles to give Beggs the testosterone to transition.

          2. I agree Zeb. It is a real disorder. And it sucks for the people dealing with it. It is, however, a disorder.

          3. Know what sucks the most? The amount of ‘transgender’ people who kill themselves after the transition. Turns out they’re delusional, but then we already knew that yes? I’m not trying to make light of the individuals plight, but I find the ‘solutions’ to be abhorrent and counter productive. You don’t help someone with a delusion by going along with their delusion.

            Also, who are you to say that transspecies isn’t a real thing? I mean, you’ve already accepted that delusion is a rational basis for coddling individuals in the legal & public sense. Now you want to try to put a limit on the scope? Give me a break. We’re opening a bottomless barrel of literal, clinical madness with this type of thing.

            Go ahead and try going to a BLM meeting and saying that you self-identify as black when you’re, say, a white male. Go ahead and see how that works out. And that is actually a less insane thing than what we’re talking about now.

            Intersectionality and the left in general are no longer rational, and that’s a bit scary when you step back and look at our nation. Rome, in a word.

    5. In Virginia there is just one team and if you can beat the man at that spot than you probably will get his shot.

    6. Absolutely in agreement with you FYCS. ‘Separate But Equal’ is alive and well.

      I don’t care if women never win a wrestling match again without injecting chemicals into their body that wouldn’t otherwise be there. I mean, normally we would call this ‘cheating’ a la steroids but since this person has a mental illness that will increase their likelihood of suicide by a tremendous margin I guess it’s all ok on balance that she got to win a few wrestling matches while juicing.

      And for the record, I really don’t care. Let this person wrestle whomever they want. Men and women shouldn’t have separate teams IF the progressives are correct and we’re all really the same in all ways. If it turns out that most women are simply inferior physically then I guess that will put an end to the ludicrous sentiment that the genders are interchangeable, yes? (OH WAIT, this was mandated to make sports more ‘even’ previously. LOLZ.)

      It’s simply an alien concept to the progressive left that while the genders are not the same or equal in all ways even while the proof that their ideologies flaws are right out in the open for all to see. The Big Lie appears to be a winning strategy with them, but is anyone surprised given the originator of the concept?


      1. * It’s simply an alien concept to the progressive left that while the genders are not the same or equal in all ways even while the proof that their ideologies flaws are right out in the open for all to see.

        It’s an alien concept to the progressive left that the genders are not the same, or equal in all ways, even while the proof of their ideologies flaws are out in the open for every common person to see.

        (Proof reading, how does it work?!)

      2. ^This^

        If I’m coaching a Women’s Basketball team at a third-rate college, I’d run five guys out there with hairy chests and beards- and win the NCAA championship. If anyone whines, “How dare you police how I choose to express my feminine gender!”

        Funny how Title IX- which was originally passed to expand women’s access in college sports- might just be the death of women’s sports.

  4. No. Not everybody agrees. Either he competes with his biological sex or he doesn’t compete. It’s just how the world works. Not everybody can be happy. Treat him like anybody else with a disability or issue that prevents them from competing in their proper area. It’s like Oscar Pistorius. He should have never been able to run against people with real legs. Does it suck? Sure. But it’s the only way to ensure fairness.
    My high school didn’t have a boys volleyball team, and I couldn’t just play for the girls’ team. I am severely colorblind to the point where it affects my job, but I don’t demand the government change traffic light colors. I had asthma and could almost never play in indoor rinks due to the Zamboni fumes that linger on the ice, but in outdoor rinks or rinks with electric zambonis I was fine. I didn’t demand to only play in outdoor rinks.

    The lesson we should be teaching this kid is that life sucks and he can’t always get what he wants.

    1. I don’t demand the government change traffic light colors.

      In certain cases you probably should. Or stay away from Syracuse, NY.

      Unlike nearly every other traffic light in the U.S., the traffic light up on Tipperary Hill in Syracuse, New York displays green above red.

      1. If you’re nearby stop at the Blarney Stone for a fantastic burger!

    2. Life has sucked for you, yet you insist on getting worked up over a minor controversy about cultural norms involving complete strangers?

      1. A ‘minor controversy’ that has a Federal government backing/involvement it in both the USA and Canada.

  5. Taking testosterone didn’t mean the East German women competed against men now did it?

    1. They did it in secret to gain an unfair advantage.

      1. So an unfair advantage is only bad if it’s secret?

  6. Everybody Agrees This Trans Wrestler Should Compete With Boys

    No they don’t. Stop lying.

    1. That made me pause for a second too. Thanks for telling me what I’m supposed to think.

  7. Anyone taking anabolic steroids should not be allowed to compete period. If a cis male did it they would be banned and probably arrested.

    1. Eactly.

      Tell her: you can take testosterone or you can compete. You can’t do both.

    2. That is why letting her compete with the boys is equally as problematic. Testosterone is a banned substance. Libertarians may not like that, but that doesn’t change reality.

      1. Yeah taking T might make him stonger than the cis males in his weight class.

        1. She would still get her ass kicked. But, it still strikes me as wrong to have a special set of rules from some competitors.

          The proper answer to this is that testosterone is banned. If you want to compete in high school sports, put off your sex change until you graduate. She shouldn’t be getting special treatment.

          1. Look who’s slapping everyone in the face with his dictator boner.

            1. And look who’s loving it. “Thank you, John! May I have another?”

            2. Yea dictators insist on a preset set of norms AKA the rule of law.

              1. The rule of law is the opposite of the rule of man. It would seem you misunderstand the meaning of the phrase, but in your defense it’s been stretched beyond recognition as of late.

      2. I’d think that most libertarians who don’t want to see T be a banned substance would still understand why a sports league would have rules against using it. Separate issues.

        1. I agree. And if they have that rule, they have a right to apply it uniformly.

    3. I was going to ask, do they not have rules against performance enhancing drugs in high school sports? And aren’t athletes generally forbidden from using certain drugs that give an advantage, even if they are properly prescribed by a doctor?

      I really don’t care if PEDs are allowed or not (though for adolescents, it seems like a bad idea). But the rules should be applied consistently.

      1. The article says testosterone is a banned substance except for medically necessary treatments. That exception is likely required by ADA standards.

        1. And God fucking forbid anyone stands up and say letting a teenager permanently mutilate her body is a bad idea.

          1. I imagine the exception was created to deal with more conventional maladies.

            1. I would think so. That just further illustrates the insanity of all of this. There is nothing medically necessary about this.

              1. Grow up John. The world isn’t going to stop spinning just because you’re a frightened little idiot.

                1. “Thank you, John! May I have another?”

                2. What a clueless tool you are, Tony.

            2. “Conventional Maladies”

              Great band name.

      2. And aren’t athletes generally forbidden from using certain drugs that give an advantage, even if they are properly prescribed by a doctor?

        Not that I’m aware of. My ADD and asthma meds were against the rules to use without a prescription, but I used them

        1. I was thinking more in high level adult competition. I’m pretty sure (not completely) that having a legit prescription doesn’t mean someone competing in the Olympics can take adderall when they are competing.

          1. I know albuterol is accepted in the Olympics for diagnosed asthmatics.

      3. I really don’t care if PEDs are allowed or not (though for adolescents, it seems like a bad idea).

        This statement has a double meaning. *Lights OMWC signal*

  8. It’s not for the state to decide whether somebody’s experience changing gender is based on something real or not.

    It is if they are running a girls wrestling tournament. If you run a girls wrestling tournament, you necessarily get to decide who is a girl and can compete.

    More importantly, Scott engages in sophistry here. The state by virtue of having any gender standards must decide if the experience is real or not. If the state let this person compete with the boys, it would be commenting on the validity of the experience just as much as they are here. They would just be deciding in the affirmative, which is what Scott wants.

  9. The question being begged here is “what is appropriate treatment”?

    You have a female on testorerone competing with females not receiving hormone treatments, which would normally be a fair play infraction Shackford’s “appropriate treatment” would also require females to compete with biological males, to what result in that case?

    The problem is there are physical difference between male and female that are not and likely cannot be under anyone’s full control, and these have impact on identity. I still do not see any evidence that gender is of prime importance and sex is irrelevant.

    1. What rule does Scott want here? It appears that he wants a system where girls can compete with boys so long as they claim to be boys and take testosterone.

      I don’t think that is an irrational system. It is, however, no less or more rational than saying that girls compete with their biological sex. The only irrationality going on here is the state saying girls can use testosterone if they want to claim to be a boy but no one else can.

      1. I may not have been clear. If Beggs can compete with boys the it would likely be required that a male to female be allowed to compete with the girls. And I question if that is competitively equitable for the opposite reason.

        1. If we limit ourselves to people taking hormone treatments (like Beggs), then yeah actually, after about a year a transwoman loses most of the extra testosterone-induced muscle mass and has no real advantage over ciswomen.

          1. Bullshit. skeletons don’t change just because you’re blocking your testosterone.

            1. Ah, yes. The old “I don’t like it, so I’m just going to call it bullshit” refutation. A time-honored choice, but ultimately a failing one.

              1. uhh… no, I’m saying you’re full of shit. It’s not that I don’t like it, it’s that I know you are wrong in a fundamentally moronic manner.

                1. But really, I promise you, caitlyn jenner still has the wide shoulders and narrow hips he had before he transitioned.

                  1. And it still doesn’t translate to any meaningful athletic advantage, which is why if Jenner were to compete in the Olympics again she would qualify for the women’s events.

                    1. Yes, it does translate to a meaningful athletic advantage. Although your ideology denies it, it is still true.

            2. Bullshit. skeletons don’t change just because you’re blocking your testosterone.

              Not to mention holy-fucking bullshit Batman, Beggs being f-to-m, is in no way representative of any given average *or* m-to-f transition. This is just an extrapolation of the idiotic “If we just *think* equality hard enough!” mentality.

              Give you can crater John Cena’s testosterone levels for a year or pile estrogen on top and explicitly keep him out of the gym. Within months of simply standing around in the weight room he’s going to be larger and more muscular than the average cis-woman. Even one of the same height/weight.

        2. States get a lot of leeway on gender distinctions. I think they might be able to get away with just letting it go one way.

          1. Maybe, but is that what Shackford is suggesting as “appropriate treatment”?

            If acceptance requires everyone around me to treat me as I see myself, then there is no accounting for physiological differences. You cannot bar me because I am not what I belueve myself to be.

  10. As far as the second solution, it’s a terrible idea for a state school system or government to weigh in on the scientific validity of transgender people. It’s not for the state to decide whether somebody’s experience changing gender is based on something real or not. It’s a situation that exists and will continue to exist. It’s not going to go away. I’ve previously argued against government bans on “reparative therapy” (the idea that homosexuality and transgenderism can be “cured” with psychotherapy)

    I’m still trying to understand the opinion here.

    We want to ignore the birth certificate, and let the individual actors decide sans government mandates. I’m all for that. 100% But there’s discussion about how Beggs (or others), being in ‘transition’ have a medically valid reason for taking the testosterone therapy. What if there was no medical transition? Would we be ok with a boy that simply declared he wanted to wrestle with the girls, completely absent any medically recognized ‘transition’?

    It seems that there’s a baby we’re being very careful to not throw out with the bathwater.

    1. That is a good question. Why is taking testosterone because you suffer from a mental disorder okay but taking it because you want to be more competitive not okay?

      There is no answer to that question other than that transgendered are latest protected victim group so FYTIW.

    2. Lets be pretty honest here Diane, I think *all* the boys would be interested in wrestling the girls. But if we let that happen, won’t the men’s wresting team effectively be the place were we dump all of the gay boys?

      *puts on his thinking cap*

      /sarc

  11. No athlete, male, female, or trans should be able to compete while taking steroids….it’s really that simple

    No matter if he/she competes in male or female bracket, they would be taking a performance enhancing drug, and that would not be fair to the other athletes

      1. The entire world seemed to agree on this, until this transgender thing became super ‘hip’. Even the Olympics won’t allow athletes to compete if they are taking performance enhancing drugs

        1. They did let a trans women Caster Semenya compete in the 800 which she dominated of course.

          1. Semenya isn’t trans, she’s born intersex.

            1. Does she have a y chromosome or not? If yes, she should run with the men.

        2. The Olympics has let trans folk participate for years. They recently reduced the time a competitor had to be on hormones to only a year.

    1. I’m curious if this was just an extremely canny way for a girl to go about winning the absolute *shit* out of the competition because they found a legal loophole that they could use to get a competitive advantage.

      I’m actually suspicious of the entire trans-issue tacked on to this after further reflection. I’d love to know about this individuals college submissions and scholarship offers. Very interested indeed.

  12. …Nah, it’s too nice of a day today.

  13. I like how Shackford consistently tries to argue that libertarians are fine with trans people.

    But then the commentators always tell me the rest of the story.

    It’s kind of a reminder why, even if I was 100% on-board with libertarian idealogy, I would never be a libertarian/Libertarian. There’s too many assholes round here for me to ever want to join the crowd.

    1. There is a difference between saying “do what you want” and saying “I buy into whatever you claim”. One does not require the other. Libertarians owe trans people the same thing they owe anyone else, leaving them alone. They don’t owe them acceptance or agreeing with or enabling their views about themselves anymore than they owe that to anyone else.

      1. Dude, you repeatedly attack the very idea that trans folk actually exist, repeatedly call it a mental illness, question his and his families medical decisions, and state, unequivocally, that he shouldn’t be allowed to participate in all sorts of things.

        That’s not “do what you want”, it’s “I’ll stop you from doing what you want even when it doesn’t impact me at all”.

        1. Uh, they obviously exist. That’s not inconsistent with them being mentally ill.

          1. Saying “they’re not a transboy, they’re just a crazy girl” over and over again? Yeah, that’s attacking the idea that trans folk exist. It’s pretty comparable to the Mormon “there are no gay people, just people that struggle with same-sex attractions” bullshit.

            They’re deliberate attempts to undermine people because you don’t like that they exist.

            1. You’ll fit right in with the staffers at Reason. As far as calling them ‘libertarian’ that are A LOT of people who would disagree. But, on the plus side people at Slate.com will think your cool and isn’t that what’s important?

              “Woke Minds and Intersectional Solidarity”

            2. If you’re trans, you’re mentally ill. That is not a judgement of character. I myself am mentally ill. I do not dislike the fact that I exist.

              You are bad at this.

              1. Hey, whataya know! If you look below, you’ll see that John agreed that he attacks the idea that trans folk exist. He really isn’t subtle.

                1. So, in your mind, a man who “identifies” as female is a woman? That’s not how it works. If you want to undergo sex change surgery, then be my guest. (Please do so at your own expense, but have at it.) And afterwards, everyone will still know that Susan was born Bob; it’s something the doctor will be able to determine, too.

                  1. “So, in your mind, a man who “identifies” as female is a woman?”
                    Honestly? I don’t know. I also don’t particularly care. While I can imagine scenarios where whether someone is a cisman or transman will matter?, in the exceedingly vast majority of cases it really doesn’t matter.

                    I honestly don’t consider calling her Caitlyn Jenner to be any more a burden then when a former co-worker asked to be called by his middle name instead of his first. And it matters about as much to me.

                    Or to put it simply… a person’s medical issues are between them, their doctor, and (maybe) their family. Not between them and me. Everything else, the name, the pronouns? That’s just basic respect.
                    ________
                    ?If I survive or divorce my husband, I’ll have renewed interest in the genitals of my would-be conquests.

        2. Dude, you repeatedly attack the very idea that trans folk actually exist, repeatedly call it a mental illness,

          Yes I do, because that is the truth. I don’t owe trans people lying about their condition.

          question his and his families medical decisions, and state, unequivocally, that he shouldn’t be allowed to participate in all sorts of things.

          I don’t think she is able to consent to do such things. She is a teenager. If she wants to mutilate herself, she can do it as an adult. But parents and the state should not be enabling her to make irreversible decisions before she is competent to make them.

          You think that people owe her acceptence and enabling. No, they do not. The state and her parents owe her the duty of keeping her from making irreversible decisions before she is competent enough to make them, a duty they are sadly failing. After that, she can do what she wants but no one owes her acceptance or anything else.

          1. You think that people owe her acceptence and enabling.
            I think that if you want folks to take you seriously on that whole “live and let live” bit, you have to do your part.

            You are not.

            1. I think that if you want folks to take you seriously on that whole “live and let live” bit, you have to do your part.

              You are not.

              So live and let live now means publicly supporting an absurd and harmful lie?

              Go fuck yourself.

              1. “So live and let live now means publicly supporting an absurd and harmful lie?”
                So now minding your own business is the same as “support”?

                “Go fuck yourself.”
                I have a husband for that.

                1. EE, did you miss the “publicly” part or just ignore it? If people want to be delusional, I don’t particularly care. But when they marshal the coercive power of govt and demand that I, too, buy into their delusion – as this wrestling thing does – that’s a bit much. Live and let live works both ways; perhaps this girl, her supporters, the author, and you should try it.

                  1. And did you miss the part where John’s objection to trans folk goes well beyond sports?

                    1. Yes Escher it does. Their right to be left alone does not mean I have to approve of it.

                    2. @John
                      You can disapprove of things without trying to interject your views into their medical decisions.

                      That said you cannot meddle in their personal medical decisions while claiming that you are leaving them alone.

                    3. Escher, you’re going to need to understand that you don’t understand what being libertarian means. I’m sorry.

                      This post chain has unequivocally proven that you can not discern the difference between ‘saying’ and ‘doing’ which is par for the course with many people these days.

                      You believe that because John thinks Trans is a mental disorder, which for the record the mental health profession agrees with, that he is somehow going to act on that to do…what exactly? Make them wrestle people that they don’t have an unnatural chemical advantage over?

                      Please, take the time to seriously examine your belief system before sticking your metaphorical fingers into strangers eyes. People here generally won’t take your emoting as anything more than bullshit. Mostly because emoting is bullshit.

          2. parents and the state should not be enabling her to make irreversible decisions before she is competent to make them

            Not the state. But that’s kind of what parents do. Of course there are limits to what a parent can do or allow their child to do and in this case it may be a legitimate question to ask. But making irreversible decisions for minor children is a big part of parenting in general.

            1. You’re right, not the state. But, then the state cannot be used to impose the decisions made by that family upon everyone else through their tax dollars. Meaning something that is legitimately divided by ‘sex’ (such as sports) should not have to acquiesce to new illogical argumentation that says that the divisions are imposed by ‘gender’.

              This is just moronic and there are a lot of mental contortions that have to be made to justify the position of the transgender ‘special rights’ movement.

            2. What if the parents were part of a religious cult that demanded all men have their testicles removed and become eunuchs? How is this any different than the genital mutilation that goes in in Islamic countries? Sure, some girls object but some do not. Some think it is a great thing and want it done. In those cases, what would you and Scott say about that? Is mutilating yourself when you are a minor okay when it is a fashionable trend but not okay in the name of religion?

              I don’t see how anyone of good conscience could see allowing a kid to transition to the other sex as anything other than child abuse of the gravest sort.

              1. Correct. I admire the way that you comment on this in a calm and rational way. The topic makes me want to gut someone like a fish, honestly. It is disgusting that parents/doctors/educators can do this to a kid and FEEL GOOD ABOUT THEMSELVES FOR IT! God help us.

              2. Like I said, there is a line to be drawn somewhere. I’m not going to pretend I know where it should be drawn in this case because I don’t.

              3. John, how do you feel about the State taking control of children of Jehova’s Witnesses to force medical treatment on them? Is it cool that the State steps in when parents are parenting wrong?

                1. So in your opinion Sparky, circumcision is the same thing as gender reassignment? Is it your opinion that cutting off a foreskin is qualitatively the same thing as cutting off someone’s penis and pumping them full of hormones such that they become the other sex?

                  If so, I would be curious to hear why you think that. If not, then your point is moot.

                  Lastly, circumcision is reversible these days.

                  1. So you don’t want to answer my question then? Alright, even though it has nothing to do with circumcision.

                    The state of MA has in more than one case taken ownership of JW minors that were severely injured to give them blood transfusions. Your comment regarding religion was a bit ambiguous, to me anyway, and I’m curious how much power you’re comfortable with the State having. As you’re not a parent, I’m curious is all.

                    1. I did answer your question. The answer is circumcision is nothing like gender reassignment. It is a medical procedure that is nothing like it in terms of scope, consequences or reversibility. So, just because you say this goes too far in no way obligates you to think circumcision does not. They are separate issues. And you are making a false analogy claiming they are.

                      Comparing gender reassignment to circumcision is no different than comparing it to ear piercing

                      I thought that went without saying. I honestly didn’t think you were dumb enough to think you were making a valid point and that it was assuming you were making a pointless one.

                    2. So you’re still dodging then. Alright.

                2. Sparky

                  My 12 yr old daughter thinks she is the re-incarnation of Mata Hari.

                  Do I pimp her out for a 20% cut of her earnings?

          3. It would be nice if the outcome of this Texas wrestling flap was a severe flogging for the doctors, the parents and every other theoretically responsible adult who facilitated this poor girl getting her life destroyed.

            1. Seems like a big thing to assume that it will destroy her life.

              1. You shouldn’t assume it will, but there is certainly a good possibility of that.

              2. The procedure might not destroy her life, but it’s very possible that she’ll go along with the statistics and kill herself when the transition is completed. Her business, as long as she spends her money on it in my opinion.

                The real tragedy are men who transition to female, as they are far more likely than average to kill themselves after they’ve fully transitioned. If that doesn’t say ‘mental illness’ than I’m not sure what else would. For a woman, ‘transitioning’ is basically taking drugs and maybe a mastectomy. Both of those things can be more-or-less reversed so there’s probably less of a suicide risk attached but I’m not aware of any study specifically examining that angle.

        3. Ummmm….if questioning the logic of allowing a child to decide what gender he/she identifies with before they can legally drive a car and then thinking it bizarre that this mentality be imposed on everyone through the force of the state makes one an ‘asshole’ then what does that make a statist such as you that wants to force this ideology upon everyone through tax dollars?

        4. It IS a mental illness. Gods above.

          It is NOT normal. It’ is not average–it’s a pretty fucking big problem.

          A person’s mental image does not match up with their physical body–if that’s not a mental illness then there’s no such thing.

  14. I cannot believe that the state is allowed to make rules for a program that it funds and administers. This is literally the definition of fascism.

    1. It’s not for the state to decide whether somebody’s experience changing gender is based on something real or not.

      I guess Scott wants the state to stop dividing sports by gender.

      1. I think Shackford’s arguing that segregation by gender is more acceptable to him than segregation by sex, but I do not segregration by gebder making a whole lot of sense.

        1. It makes no sense. By Scott’s logic, a boy can come down and wrestle with the girls simply by claiming to be one. And that effectively makes gender segregation moot.

          More importantly, we segregate by sex because of the physical differences make fair competition between the sexes impossible. We don’t segregate competitions like speech and debate where physical differences don’t matter.

          Sports segregation is not, to use the terms of the transgender movement, segregated by gender. It is segregated by biological sex and done so for obvious and rational reasons. Scott would want physical competitions to be segregated by the state of mind rather than biological and physical differences. He is utterly unprincipled on this issue. He assumes whatever position is necessary to give the transgender what they want.

        2. If gender is a social construct then why should anything be divided by gender? That’s what I’m wondering.

          1. WakaWaka,

            They are saying “gender” is something different than biological sex. Here, by their own definitions, they are not segregating by gender. It doesn’t matter what y ou think you are. It is your biology that matters because your biology is what determines if you can fairly compete.

            So this is not a case of gender segregation. It is a legitimate case of sex segregation. But no one sees that because there is nothing rational about the trans movement.

          2. I do think that nothing should be legally divided by sex or gender. Anywhere it’s really relevant can be defined in other terms, like the ability to become pregnant, or having certain body parts or meeting certain physical standards.

            Of course, there also shouldn’t be public schools and youth sports leagues should be private organizations that can run things however they want.

            1. That is just a cop out Zeb. Okay fine, pretend this is a private league. Now, what should they do? Not what can they do. But what is the right answer if you were running the league?

              1. Obviously the right answer is whatever the private league decides. Their league, their rules. If you don’t want to follow the rules, you don’t get to be in the league. It’s not a cop out.

                1. Seriously. How the fuck am I supposed to know what the right answer is? People who spend their careers studying transgenderism don’t agree on how best to deal with it.

              2. In that case it’s none of my business, which is the whole point.

                As I have often said when discussing this kind of issue, I don’t have a good answer to how it should be dealt with. If I were running the league, I’d probably say that if you want to do the hormone treatments, you can’t compete. I think other people might reasonably reach other conclusions.

                A big part of why many people are libertarian is that they are smart enough not to pretend that they know the right answer to every problem for everyone.

                1. Zeb,

                  There are kids as young as 8 being told they are Trans. And I have never once seen anyone in the Trans movement or any of its toadies object to such. You may think there is a line, but the transgender movement does not.

                  1. John at what age did you affirmatively decide you were a boy?

                    1. And along comes Tony to defend calling 8-year-old kids Trans. Tony, you really will believe anything. An 8-year-old kid has no idea with any certainty what they are. As the link I give below shows, 80% or more of these cases end up fading once the person reaches adulthood.

                      You are a sick sad man Tony.

                    2. I think there is genuine controversy when it comes to children. But if an 8 year-old can wrap his head around gender identity politics, why can’t you?

                    3. “Thank you, John! May I have another?”

                  2. Good thing I’m not part of any movement, then.

              3. In youth football leagues, the girls play w the boys. The team I coached last yr. had 1 girl, the rest boys. Won the championship. The girl played both ways. The main thing is, very few girls want to play football.

  15. It should be pointed out here that the state, on the one hand, says this kid is not competent to vote, drink, sign a contract or consent to sex with an adult and, on the other hand, thinks it is perfectly okay for her to permanently mutilate her body over a feeling of gender disorder that is known to pass in many cases as the person gets older.

    Isn’t our modern, I love science sexually, society great?

    1. This is the most damnable point of all. This is truly why any — not even freedom loving person, but rational individual should be against this so long as those other contradictory pillars of consent still stand.

      I am for uniform rationality. The state either says you must be 18 to kill or fuck or smoke, i.e., to be held responsible for YOUR agency; OR the state says you do not need to be 18 to be responsible for your own action. It cannot, ought not be both ways — simultaneously cherry picked issue to issue.

      1. I think it should be 16 for everything. Maybe even younger. Teens may be idiots in many cases, but they are at least capable of considering the consequences of their actions.

        Making it 18 for sex would be ridiculous.

        1. The age is arbitrary, but it’s the fact that the arbitrarily set age for agency is different across a wide spectrum of issues that makes it so illogical.

    2. As a junior in HS, he’s probably old enough to consent to sex (17 in TX, 16 in most states).

      1. Fair point. But she can’t vote or drink alcohol or sign a valid contract.

        1. I’m actually inclined to agree that it should at least be very difficult for a minor to significantly, irreversibly modify their bodies in ways that aren’t medically necessary.

          But you have to acknowledge that legal ages of adulthood are pure legal fiction and that older teens are, in reality, much closer to being adults than children.

          1. We can debate the legal age all day. And you are right, there is no one right answer. But, there is an answer even if it is different in different people.

  16. OT: For those of you who keep asking, the gigantic pimple I popped yesterday on my back has reduced in size but needs to be popped again.

    As of right now it closely resembles Elizabeth Warren’s clitoris, if her clitoris was inflamed and filled with puss.

      1. Nope. Certain strains of yeast do look a big pus-like, though.

    1. The problem with back zits is you can’t always get the giant puss nugget to hit the mirror when you pop them.

      In any case, I’m sorry for your loss.

      1. the preferred nomenclature is bacne.

    2. Now that’s how you hijack a thread. You paying attention, fellow hit ‘n runners?

    3. Heap biggum pus? You need a shaman.

  17. We have sex segregated sports because most boys are better at them than most girls. If school sports were integrated girls would be completely irrelevant unless quotas were enforced. But if a girl is good enough to compete with the boys, why not let her compete? Still bullshit to carve out an exception for ped’s though.

  18. Isnt taking testosterone a banned substance by the us anti doping agency? I dont have problem with wrestling with the boys but not sure taking a ped is fair even if she is likely not not on par (what about scrawny pip squeak boys?).

    Also wouldnt this have to be applied the other to let boys play on girls team. If so i would have made hs hoops i think

  19. The real problem here is that someone let a minor “transition”

    1. What you just said is literally a hate crime.

    2. Yes. That is the real problem. There is no way she can meaningfully consent to this. And no one, not even her parents, should have the authority to consent for her.

      The transgender movement thinks making kids wait until they are 18 before they do anything irreversible is an unacceptable position. That is a real moderate and reason based movement libertarians have allied themselves with.

      1. There is no way she can meaningfully consent to this.

        Legally, you’re probably right. But teenagers are quite capable of meaningfully consenting to things. Or should all teen sex be considered rape?

        1. The science says otherwise

          As there have been no large studies to date on the course of GID, and, in particular, no studies focusing on causal factors for GID, the evidence level for the various etiological models that have been proposed is generally low. Most models of these disorders assume that they result from a complex biopsychosocial interaction. Only 2.5% to 20% of all cases of GID in childhood and adolescence are the initial manifestation of irreversible transsexualism. The current state of research on this subject does not allow any valid diagnostic parameters to be identified with which one could reliably predict whether the manifestations of GID will persist, i.e., whether transsexualism will develop with certainty or, at least, a high degree of probability.

          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm…..MC2697020/

        2. Less than 20% of the people who feel this way in childhood and adolescence, continue to feel so for the rest of their lives. And it is impossible to tell which ones will get over it and which ones will.

          Now, you tell me how it is anything but horrific to let teenagers do this.

          1. Well, that’s a whole different issue from the ability to consent. People can consent to all kinds of inadvisable things.

            Evidence like that inclines me to agree with you on that. But the studies aren’t very good yet (as the quote excerpt you posted acknowledges) and I’m still not going to act like I’m sure I know what the right answer is.

            1. Zeb,

              I don’t see how telling someone “wait until your 18 before doing something rash” is some kind of a big burden. It is not. The only reason the transgendered activists would object is because like everything with leftists, this has nothing to do with transgenderism and is just another weapon to use to oppress people.

              1. “I don’t see how telling someone “wait until your 18 before doing something rash” is some kind of a big burden.”
                Talk to more trans people then. They’re actually pretty articulate at explaining why they disagree with you.

                But hey, if you want a measurable metric? By forcing them to go through puberty before they can start medical treatment (as opposed to just talk therapy), you’re increasing their eventual medical bills by thousands of dollars.

                1. Go talk to a 8 or 12-year-old kids who are convinced they should be able to drive cars and drink whiskey. Sucks to be a kid sometimes. Are you going to let them do all of those things? Why not?

                  I get it. Trangendered are fashionable and you feel the need to virtue signal your tolerance. But sorry, some of us think rationally about this shit.

                  1. Actually, my first taste of beer was probably in that 8-12 age range. Thought it was disgusting and didn’t try it again until I was 20, so I really can’t fault my father’s decision. Similarly, he would occasionally let me take the wheel when we were on backroads and such.

                    So again, we’re back to the same thing: you don’t like that other families and parents will make different decisions then you, so you want to prohibit them from doing so.

                2. You’re ENB, aren’t you

                  1. I always find it interesting when folks try to accuse me of being someone else. At least in this case, I know who you’re referring to.

                    And no, I am not her.

                    1. How does one half-cut off their penis Escher? And who really gives a shit if it drives up their cost of medical ‘treatment’ to transition later on? It’s a medical procedure that the medical profession itself isn’t sure helps and, in many cases, actually causes the patient to commit suicide.

                      Frankly, I don’t need to accuse you of being one of our resident trolls to call you an emotive fool. That’s just who you are. You don’t think, you feel, which is perhaps the best evidence yet that you’re just a sincere but thoughtless individual who prioritizes what sounds good over any kind of rational or evidence-based approach.

                      Your footnote in an earlier comment up-page where you point out how you might care if this affected you is pretty illustrative of how much you actually think anything through.

          2. This is really that part that frightens me. You’ll hear about parents of pre-teens talking about how their kid is TG. My son is almost a year and a half. He started playing my wife’s shoes yesterday. Clearly he’s demonstrating that he doesn’t identify as a male. I should get him started on massive doses of estrogen so he’s able to medically transition easier!

            1. Calling pre-pubescent kids trans does seem especially questionable (to say the least). I’ve know plenty of kids who didn’t exactly conform to traditional gender roles who end up perfectly happy with their sex-congruent gender identity.

              1. That is one of the bigger ironies of this. A movement claiming to make gender identity fluid, in fact, ends up enforcing very rigid ideas of gender. Just because a man is effeminate doesn’t mean he is not a man or because a woman is masculine doesn’t mean she is really a man. The entire idea that someone could be transgender presupposes a set and rigid definition of gender, otherwise what need would there be to transition to the other gender?

      2. The transgender movement thinks making kids wait until they are 18 before they do anything irreversible is an unacceptable position.

        And there’s a reason for that, John. If you start transitioning before puberty, the end result is close to the desired result.

        1. And all that more damaging if that in fact was not the result you wanted, which as the link above shows is the case more than 80% of the time.

          1. I have said this here before. I am transgendered*. I identify as more female than male. You would not be able to tell that by looking at me or hanging around me because outwardly, I am very masculine and like to bone women. What makes me a great deal different from other transgendered folks is that I never bought into the lie that my genitals had to conform to my identity. That’s a societal pressure exacerbated by the transgendered movement, which coincidentally is part of the Progressive movement.

            * or more accurately gender neutral / gender free.

  20. So Ivan Drago is now the good guy in Rocky 4?

    1. No. Russians.

    2. He was just trying to level the playing field against the known juicer Stalone

  21. “Everybody Agrees” is poor form for a headline. Because that (not here) usually means the appeal to authority fallacy in lieu of solid argument. Also i doubt everybody does agree.

    I agree with competing with the boys….but not if using PEDs

  22. “Everybody Agrees This Trans Wrestler Should Compete With Boys”

    True, but it was a boy transitioning to girl and wanted to be on the girls wrestling team, I wonder if everyone would be as supportive?

  23. Thanks for your take on this, Scott. Keep up the good work.

  24. taking T? should not compete.

  25. Beggs should be wrestling boys. If the hormone discrepancy is a source of conflict, maybe that’s a good reason for us to be rethinking what role the government plays in moderating performance-enhancing drugs in the first place.

    If you’re advocating for the slipperiest of slopes, is it still considered taking a stance? Because I see a bottom or waypoint on this slope that involves Title IX affirmative consent for a girl cum boy to be torn in half by an opponent with a bloodlust, veins full of motivating and enabling chemicals, and possibly, tendencies towards misogyny/racialism/nationalism.

    I don’t see how a doctor prescribes testosterone to a teenage girl without converting the birth certificate first. Does the state manually inspect the plumbing or require video proof of the conversion?

  26. Why are teens mature enough to rationally consent to sex-transformation yet unable to consent to fucking or drinking or smoking? I want to ask this dude if he ever had that pussy pounded yet before he tosses it away — and all the weak would cry out for my head, and as they drug me to the gallows for indecency against the transgendered I’d scream, ‘you said he was mature, that he was capable of reasoning and consenting as an adult! Why can’t rational, consenting, individuals discuss hot fucking??’ and then of course, I’d be lynched faster than any mass murderer.

    1. It is well documented that these sorts of feelings often pass as the person ages. What happens ten years from now when she realizes she has made a mistake? What will her parents and doctors who enabled her to do this have to say then?

      1. is there data to support your assertion?

        i have not found anything yet to support/refute your claim.

        googling longitudinal transgender study turns up this:
        http://pediatrics.aappublicati……2015-3223

        CONCLUSIONS: Socially transitioned transgender children who are supported in their gender identity have developmentally normative levels of depression and only minimal elevations in anxiety, suggesting that psychopathology is not inevitable within this group. Especially striking is the comparison with reports of children with GID; socially transitioned transgender children have notably lower rates of internalizing psychopathology than previously reported among children with GID living as their natal sex.

        Abbreviations:
        GD ? gender dysphoria
        GID ? gender identity disorder

        1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm…..MC2697020/

          I quoted it above. No more than 20% of these cases persist into adulthood and no one as of 2008 at least understands how to tell which cases will not.

          We know for a fact a good number of these cases fade. Given that fact, how is it eithical to take irreversible action before you know for sure if a case will?

          1. the letter to the editor…

            As soon as a diagnosis of transsexualism has been made by child and adolescent psychiatrists, we think that it is not acceptable to withhold hormone therapy from the affected patients and thereby practically force them to experience the irreversible physical changes that puberty visits on their bodies.

            and smackdown response…

            A phrase such as “practically force (the patients) to experience the irreversible physical changes” seems further proof that this debate is sometimes not being conducted in a matter of fact fashion, but in a highly emotional way.

            1. The transgender movement is pure insanity.

            2. I identify as a bird and I need avian therapy, otherwise you’re forcing me to experience the irreversible physical changes that jumping off the Empire State Building visits on my body.

              1. OOPS, SPLAT!

        2. Socially transitioned transgender children who are supported in their gender identity have developmentally normative levels of depression and only minimal elevations in anxiety, suggesting that psychopathology is not inevitable within this group.

          I’ve been thinking about this conclusion for a while as well. The whole ‘who are supported in their gender identity’ bit is a sticky wicket as well. Terminal cancer patients fair better when supported. They still die, of course, but they feel better while doing so. Old people actually live longer and better when supported. The issue there is that you, effectively, have to diminish the life of a young person by tying them to one or more old person(s) to maintain support, but it remains a fact that support improves outcomes. Along the social lines, it’s known medical coverage, without improving care whatsoever, improves perception about medical care. Moreover, conflating teh feelz, #IFLS, and fake news, for a good bit of my adult life, it was ‘known’ that greater social support encouraged plants to thrive.

  27. Mack Beggs should have been wrestling with the boys.

    “should”?

    Should those boys have been taking testosterone boosters as well?, you know – just to be *fair*. One set of rules for everyone, no?

    1. That’s the part that gets me and I’m a little flabberghasted that Scott, repeatedly, performs a rather lithe slide over that transition.

    2. I could have used that in the middle of high school. I was one of the tallest, but the smallest kid there by weight and build. Would have helped a boatload for lacrosse and skiing.

  28. …there is an exception for those who have doctor’s orders for valid medical treatments…

    And there’s the actual problem here. There should be no such exception. Body-changing doses of hormones other than those that treat a deficiency confer an unfair advantage. That’s why they are not allowed. Calling them a “treatment” doesn’t change that.

    Calling “transitioning” a “valid medical treatment” is of course begging the question.

  29. …note the lack of use of words like “required” or “mandated” or other suggestions of involuntary placement.

    Nice try, Shackleford, but that’s not gonna stop mind readers from shitting up the thread trying to tell you what you really think.

    1. By virtue of running a gender segregated sports program, the state must make a determination as to the validity of transgenderism. There is no way for the state not to be the arbiter and Scott is not being honest when he pretends they can.

      1. IKR. People should wise up and get over this retarded wishful thinking bullshit. Ideals are so tiresome, deal with the real world progtards.

        1. What the hell are you saying? The state runs a girls wrestling program. It necessarily has to decide who is and who is not a girl. There is no way for it to avoid making that determination.

          Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

  30. Back in the ’60s and ’70s our society decided to attempt to mainstream mentally ill people. That produced mixed results. But now we’re got a better system for resolving psychological inequities: the entire society has decided to become mentally ill.

    1. Orwell had something to say about transgenderism

      In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality was tacitly denied by their philosophy.

      We are seeing an actual example of what he is talking about.

      1. So people aren’t permitted to decide what gender they are, but you are permitted to tell them what gender they are.

        1. No one is telling you what gender you are Tony. They are describing reality. I can’t tell you that you are five feet ten or however tall you are. I can just state the fact that you are. You don’t get to determine objective reality. Reality does.

          1. Well shit, you said “objective reality is on my side,” so obviously that makes it so.

            I’m operating under the assumption that you’ve figured out the difference between biological sex and gender expression by now.

            1. yes Tony. I didn’t invent or even discover DNA, I just read about it. You are what your DNA and body are. It is funny to hear a confirmed atheist claim that female souls can be trapped in a male body.

              1. So you don’t know the difference.

                1. There is biological sex tony. Gender is your imagination. And again, tell me about these poor sould stuck in the wrong body.

                  You are so fucking stupid, you have no idea the implications of your beliefs. You just emote talking points.

                  1. Yes, there is biological sex and then there is gender identity, which are separate things and may or may not coincide. Did I make the rules? No. The only difference is that you are getting your panties in a wad about something that doesn’t affect you and I’m learning and coping with changing cultural norms like a grownup.

  31. What if my gun is a form of comfort and therapy for me? Does that mean I can get a sign to place on it enabling me to carry it everywhere so I feel good?

    1. Sure! Just sign up on the special gun therapy registry. Then we’ll just need 5 forms of ID and your political affiliation and you’re good to go. /prog

    2. What if my gun is a form of comfort and therapy for me? Does that mean I can get a sign to place on it enabling me to carry it everywhere so I feel good?

      It’s actually a little silver shield and it normally goes on your left breast pocket. It’s good for things like batons, tasers, flashbangs, and MRAPs too.

      The rest of us, who’d really like to have those magical powers and use those things on other people just have to settle for being adults.

  32. I’d honestly love to know the history of Trans and how it became medically/psychologically acceptable to give into one’s delusions to the point of medical intervention and elective surgery to complete that mutilation? I don’t mean that to sound harsh but there are plenty of corollary examples of delusions in which self-mutilation is a primary symptom and doctors don’t carry out the wishes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotemnophilia

    Personally, I don’t give a fuck what you do to your body. When it crosses to the point of forcing me to call you a title by force of punishment, then I get concerned.

    1. I don’t care what you do as an adult either. I think parents carrying out the alleged wishes of minor children in this regard is something entirely different.

      1. Yes you do care John. Other people defying the Leave it to Beaver cultural norms you grew up with bothers you immensely. And you’re not alone, of course. It’s the entire point of being a conservative. I just wonder if you guys ever consider that there are bigger problems in the world than the minor inconvenience you feel in dealing with this stuff.

        1. Yes, Tony. Anyone who doesn’t lie and go along with what the party says is oppressing you. We get it. Sorry, some of us long ago told the party to go fuck itself or never were members to begin with. Now run along back tot he hive mind from where you came.

          1. The difference between people like you and me is that I got over my discomfort with transgender people quickly and you probably never will.

            Given the nature of the modern world, this is why I don’t think people like you should be in charge.

            1. The difference is that you will believe anything that the party tells you to believe. I guarantee you ten years ago you didn’t believe a word of this nonsense. You believe it now because you have been told to believe it and that is what you do.

              Ask yourself something Tony, is there a single thing that Progressives’ believe that you don’t? Have you ever disagreed with the movement about anything?

              1. Any progressive “movement” I would be a part of values objectivity and evidence* above all else when coming to conclusions about reality. If you want to say that the “movement” believes that GMOs are especially bad for people, fine, I disagree with it on that count. Also, fuck the Bernie people.

                With respect to this issue, it comes down to what medical science says, what individuals want for themselves, and what is decent and kind. You’re not going to win this on rhetoric, and if you don’t know that you’re an idiot. So that just leaves you yelling from your porch about things other people understand but you don’t.

                *Objectivity and evidence does not mean self-serving tautology such as “penis = male!”

                1. With respect to this issue, it comes down to what medical science says,

                  The medical science says its a mental disorder. And it also says that it is a disorder that often fades after it appears in adolescents. But you are cheering on kids mutilating themselves because you are sick worthless fuck who is happy to see others suffer so you can feel good about yourself.

                  1. You have to stop getting your science reporting from Tucker Carlson. Biological sex itself is extremely complicated, and you’re insisting that not only is that concept black and white, so is the neurology of gender identity.

                    More perplexing than any of this is that you actually think you and your fellow small-minded idiots are going to win this argument. Or are people like you always aware that you’re retarded, culturally speaking, and that your job is simply to shout into the wind?

                    1. Biological sex may be complicated (most biology is) but ‘gender reassignment surgery’ is not. It is a fraud, and should be treated legally as such. It may sound mean to say to people who are (mentally) Trans, “you’ve been screwed by Nature and there’s not a,damned thing we can do about it”, but pretending that surgery that amounts to mutilation is a fix is worse. The statistics I have read regarding suicide and depression among post operative Trans peolple lead me to think that this fraud is particularly cruel, amd should be stopped.

                      There will probably be a way to shift sexes one day, and maybe one day soon. There isn’t now. Before Viagra, telling men that they could buy a pill to fix their erectile disfunction was preying on their insecurities. I fail to see how this is different.

                    2. It’s almost too obvious to point out, but you’re confusing cause and effect and so are the other people interpreting the studies you’re referring to. Being transgender correlates with a higher rate of suicide than the general population. The Swedish study you may be referring to didn’t actually compare pre- and post-op, but a more recent Canadian one suggests that suicide rates go down the farther along in transition a trans person is. Other groups have high suicide rates relative to the general population: poor people, racial minorities, etc. The cause of the higher rate of suicide is ostracism from mainstream society in every case. The more supportive an environment a trans person has, the lower the chance of a suicide attempt. I am not aware of any evidence of surgery itself causing the higher rates. And you’d think it would have to be pretty compelling for a libertarian to suggest forcing people to forego what they believe to be in their best interest.

                    3. IF the suicide rate pre-op vs post-op are as you suggest, I agree with you, for adults. The apparent trend in teens and younger bother me a great deal, especially since my (admittedly sketchy) understanding of human sexual identity is that many people do go through rapid, non-permenant, changes during adolescence.

                      I still think the surgery is geacily oversold. But then so is pretty much everything.

                    4. Absolutely. Biological sex is a social construct. Penises and vaginas, testosterone and estrogen are just illusions that we have been forced to accept because of our evil patriarchal society.

                      The vast stupidity of post-modernist nonsense

                    5. A small minority of people are of indeterminate sex. Nature deals in spectra, even if your brain can only handle black and white. A small minority of people are also transgender. Are you trying to deny that fact or what?

        2. Other people defying the Leave it to Beaver cultural norms you grew up with bothers you immensely.

          It’s the people who do not change sex who are defying those norms. Don’t you get it, Tony? John & I are saying that it’s better to defy those norms than to satisfy them by changing your sex.

          1. Yes, this. Transsexulism is the most extreme possible expression of sexism.

    2. I’d like to know when women’s lib achieved a 180-deg turn & decided that stereotypes were the reality determining whether someone was a boy or girl, & therefore that they should change sex to match the stereotype, rather than saying fie on the stereotype & saying it’s good for boys & girls to feel as they want about things.

  33. I don’t have to objectively weigh 90 lbs. in order to wrestle in the 90 lbs. weight class, right? I understand if people might not be comfortable with me, as a super heavyweight, wrestling opponents less than half my size. As long as I identify as 90 lbs., take hormones, and lose weight for a year, people should accommodate me. It’s not like I’m demanding to wrestle someone of the opposite gender or anything crazy like that.

  34. No, this person is not ‘transitioning from female to male’, she is ‘transitioning’ from female to mutilated. Her doctor should be brought up on charges of, minimally, fraud. The idea that surgery can and will make a body of one gender belong to the other is a despicable lie. Post op trans people have horrible suicide rates, and I have to believe that this lie is in part responsible for them.

    Now, one day it may well be possible to make such a transition. At that time many of the debates we are having that are goddamned ridiculous today will be absolutely valid and necessary. But for now, all this talk about ‘gender reassignment surgery’ is utter bullsh*t.

  35. He should wrestle guys, who can grab him by the pussy.

  36. Here’s the question for Scott =

    What happens when a transgender athlete wants to compete in a private, club-organized sport, and is denied (because doping is doping, regardless of reason)?

    is the govt still the bad-guy then, or do we insist that ‘sports’ are a public accommodation?

    1. If you’re asking Scott, ENB, Suderman, Chapman, and probably Gillespie you already know what their answer is. When it comes to sexual policy, the state needs to crush all dissent and anyone who has a problem with that is a dumb yokel. That probably explains why Reason is about as libertarian as Chuck Schumer.

    2. If only Reason had a search engine where one could read the kinds of things I’ve written about public accommodation? If … only …

      And if only I had been asked that by somebody who regularly comments on my stuff and therefore already knows my position.

      1. Punked out again by Shakford. I don’t recall your articles on the topic, but I’m going to assume you know your articles better than I.

        I was being factitious in the comment, but you win again. I tip my hat.

      2. If only Reason had a search engine where one could read the kinds of things I’ve written about public accommodation? If … only …

        And if only I had been asked that by somebody who regularly comments on my stuff and therefore already knows my position.

        actually scott, i don’t know, and i’m hope i’m not confused as one of your stalkers like John.

        (*the last time the subject came up, i was making a defense on your behalf fwiw)

        I was just asking a sincere and simple question and i don’t understand why the defensive snark is necessary. If there is a clarifying link, anyone could please point me to it.

        1. actually scott, i don’t know, and i’m hope i’m not confused as one of your stalkers like John.

          IMO, Scott’s consistently demonstrated that he’s a principled individual devoted to upholding the constitution and that when it comes to striking a balance between your right to associate freely and your right to public accommodation, he’s all for it.

  37. The problem with letting her compete with boys is she would be basically the worst wrestler.

    Pump a woman full of testosterone, she’s still a woman. She has a strong advantage over women who don’t use it. But she’s still inferior physically to a real man who has had the effects of testosterone all his life.

    Ideally, there should be a separate league for transsexual wrestlers.

    1. Ideally, there should be separate leagues for boys and girls and so-called “transgenderism” should not be accommodated.

  38. Beggs is a female. No amount of surgery or makeup or fashion or enablers or science-denying idiot writers pretending otherwise changes that indisputable biological fact. At the high school level, female wrestlers should wrestle other females, unless they are juiced up. That’s doping and cheating. It creates and unfair physical advantage. Cheaters ought to be prevented from participating. If SHE wants to wrestle, SHE needs to stop doping. Period. End of story.

    Government didn’t create this problem, but by lacking clear ethical standards, basic morals and common sense, it has knowingly allowed a cheater to compete against physically weaker competition because SHE lives in a fucking fairy tale dream land where HER irrational psychosis is idiotically prioritized over basic common sense. Government can, and ought to, say no to these lunatics and their child abusing enablers.

    1. Actually, I’ll argue that Government shouldn’t do anything of the sort. Society should, and government (if asked) should respond to complaints with “We’re here to enforce contract law and build the roads. We’re busy”.

  39. Wrestling isn’t tennis. The physical contact would, in any other context, count as sexual assault. Are the boys supposed to avoid touching her boobs? Impossible.

  40. It has been shown that the vast majority of children who say they want to be the other sex (like tom boys) change their mind after puberty hits. Like 80%. To start hormone therapy etc on children is simply insane. Perhaps Beggs is 18 and can decide on her/his own, but this stuff is being done to children. criminal.

  41. What it comes down to for me is, if you want to dress like the opposit sex, like an elf (complete with pointed ears), or wear,a,Get dzilla costume, I’m fine with that. We’ll figure out what do do about dorms and bathrooms, starting with dropping anybody who abuses the system in a deep hole. But sex change operations aren’t. If gender is in your head, they don’t change that, either. What they do is put large amounts of money in the pockets of doctors whose ethics strike me as questionable.

    Come up with an operation, or injection, or gene-therapy, or magical incantation, that actually changed one set of plumbing to the other and I will withdraw my objections. Until then, the Trans-supporters are encouraging peole to argue with reality, and that seldom ends well. You got a penis? Deal with it. A vagina? Ditto. You can’t actually change the one for the other, and anyone telling you that you can is, so far, a goddamned liar. Perhaps you should wonder what else they are lying to you about.

    1. What system is in a deep hole?

  42. Prediction: Texas’ schools will impose an upper limit on testosterone level in female athletes, thus preventing people in Beggs’ position from competing at all.

  43. I can glue a horn to my forehead, but that doesn’t make me a unicorn.

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