You also get sex offender labels that make no sense. In Ohio, a 21-year-old who had a 15-year-old girlfriend is on the sex offender list for 25 years. The authorities there are bending over backwards to act as if the community must be notified that this terrifying individual is in its midst. As Randy Ludlow in The Columbus Dispatch reports (emphasis mine):
Travis Blankenship is marked with what one judge describes as an undeserved "scarlet letter" — that of a sex offender.
Blankenship was 21, working part time at a department store and a few hours away from receiving his associate's degree at Clark State Community College in Springfield when he had an affair with a 15-year-old girl.
But the illicit relationship did not remain secret, and he was arrested. A psychologist found he was not a sex offender, did not require treatment and was unlikely to commit another offense.
A judge likewise did not consider Blankenship much of a threat, sentencing him in 2012 to serve 12 days of a six-month sentence for unlawful sexual conduct with a minor, a fourth-degree felony.
But, under Ohio 's Adam Walsh Act, Blankenship automatically was declared a Tier II sex offender, requiring him to register his address, employment and other information with the sheriff for the next 25 years.
His public defender will argue before the Ohio Supreme Court on Tuesday that mandatory sex-offender registration constitutes cruel and unusual punishment when it is "grossly disproportionate" to the offender's character and crime.
I'll say. If Ohio is worried about young lives ruined, it could do well by not treating Travis Blankenship as a serial child predator.
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But, OTOH, I'm not so sure a 21 year old banging a 15 year old (high school freshman, most likely) isn't a pretty legit object of concern and a legit stat rape charge.
Not a good thing to hang your Free Range Kids logo on, in any event. Free Range Kids should be about children playing, not teenagers banging adults.
But surely extramarital sex like this is a threat to traditional marriage? Isn't that what you've been telling us all along? Surely he ruined the poor girl, and no good christian man would want damaged goods. And what if she were to become pregnant? I seem to recall that a significant number of abortions are performed on teenage girls.
Sorry, I noticed an interesting fact that I knew an explanation for.
Sometimes when I see something I think "Hah! I know why that is!" and feel compelled to post the reason.
15 could be anywhere from a Freshman to a Junior depending on the time of year it occurred but a Sophmore is more likely than Freshman and the whole problem with a hard age of consent that is above 16 is that there are a shit ton of 15 year olds who ARE more than capable of consenting to a relationship with a 21 year old
Agreed.
The age gap wouldn't be as big a deal if she was 17 and he was 23. But when you start getting down to the 15 year olds, these are girls who might be physically mature, but generally aren't emotionally or psychologically mature. I'm inclined to feel that adolescents should only be fucking other adolescents, so they aren't being exploited by an older, wiser adult. This would go for 15 year old boys too.
Yeah, that's one of those times when consistency is a bitch. The real issue is danger of pregnancy, and formerly loss of virginity; neither of which are issues with boys.
A 21 year old woman fucking a 15 year old boy sounds just as creepy to me as a 21 year old man fucking a 15 year old girl.
It's the emotional manipulation / abuse that I'm thinking about here.
Oh, it is creepy from the POV of other adults (but notably not by the standards of the boys). But most of us here, including me, have somewhat of a double-standard. Nobody threatens that slutty teacher (or whoever) with death for banging their HS boy. We propose a slap on the wrist for the woman, or firing if she's a teacher or suchlike; the boy gets off Scot-free, or at worst we suggest he pay token child support if the worst happens.
Actually I would bet from the POV of a 15 year old girl, there is nothing wrong with dating a 21 year old either.
It's from the adult perspective that we become aware of the ways in which older people can manipulate and abuse younger people, and the risks that it exposes them to.
I could see it being a status symbol thing for 15 year olds in general. The 15 year old boy gets to brag to his friends about having sex with hot older woman and the 15 year old girl can brag about having a boyfriend with a car and his own place.
A 21 year old woman fucking a 15 year old boy sounds just as creepy to me as a 21 year old man fucking a 15 year old girl.
I notice to switch woman/girl and man/boy in your statement. At what point do you make the switch from minor to major? What the determining factor? Is it 18 years old?
A 21 year old woman fucking a 15 year old boy sounds just as creepy to me as a 21 year old man fucking a 15 year old girl.
It's the emotional manipulation / abuse that I'm thinking about here.
I'm thinking this should be looked at case-by-case, not with a one-size-fits-all approach.
Nothing in the article, or the link to the dispatch gives enough information to go on. Maybe she pursued him? Maybe she emotionally manipulated him?
Additionally, emotional manipulation happens at all ages and flows both ways.
But when you start getting down to the 15 year olds, these are girls who might be physically mature, but generally aren't emotionally or psychologically mature.
...
This would go for 15 year old boys too.
The problem I have with these lines is that, here we have a 21-yr.-old that is obviously well below average when it comes to wisdom of 21-yr.-olds. I know a lot of teenage guys who are more 'wise' than this moron.
The only real solution I can conceive of is to afford courts greater leeway but that doesn't overcome the 21 v. 15 ickiness.
Where do you get the idea that a 21-y.o. is an "older, wiser adult."???? We are now being told kids brains don't fully develop into maturity for rational decision making until 25. So which is it? Adult or "child" at 21? And have you SEEN the average 21 year old guy lately? Hardly what I'd call a predatory, wiser, or even an adult in many cases.
Youngers are supposed to learn from elders - learning from one's contemporaries more often than not ends up going south in a big way - because the people you're learning from don't know what they're doing, either.
It's the deaf dumb and blind leading the deaf dumb and blind.
I need a little more info. If he drugged her or coerced her it was rape. If she wanted to do it, I think 15 is old enough for her to take responsibility for her choices.
Any strict age limit is going to have that problem, the lower the age the less grey it gets. I think reasonable people can disagree on exactly where to draw the line but I don't see what alternative there is to drawing a line somewhere. Personally, I would be fine with either 15 or 16.
Especially looking at the teen pregnancy rate. Seems foolish to try to legally pretend 15 or 16 year olds don't have sex when enough get pregnant for a show like 16 and Pregnant to exist.
If she wanted to do it, I think 15 is old enough for her to take responsibility for her choices.
Especially if the story is, "They had sex... and nothing else happened."
I'd want a 16-yr.-old who's roofy-ing/impregnating/intimidating girls his own age on the list a lot more than I want a 21-yr.-old who's stupid enough to fall for some jailbait.
Yeah, at that age, taking responsibility for one's choices is more or less anathema. There's like a particular stage of brain development around that age where kids want independence with zero reponsibility.
Having found you in the past to be a pretty reasonable guy, I think you'll agree that simply drawing a statutory line around a couple of arbitrary ages is not justice. A better approach would be an acceptable range of ages that one could describe as 'reasonable' (as in the legal standard).
If a group (jury) of reasonable people (non-retards morally or intellectually) could describe the relationship as inappropriate and warranting juvenile rape charges, then sure press the charges. But if not, like in obvious cases like a 17 year old with a 19 year old there'd be no case. In the grey area cases like this there might be charges but no draconian sentencing possibility or requirement in the event of a conviction.
Once enough jury rulings occur to effectively establish a reliable precedent of legally appropriate age ranges and punishments for those ranges, real justice will be possible. Real justice develops naturally in regular human interaction, not arbitrary statutes and other government dictates.
That also allows the exact nature of the relationship to come into play. Something can be borderline squicky age gap wise but is otherwise a loving, decent relationship is probably more acceptable to most people than a minimal age gap involving abuse or manipuilation.
I don't have kids so I really can't relate, but if your daughter was a willing participant is it really rape? I can see forbidding her from having any future contact and punishing her, but murder.
More than that, it is a justification for the law standing in the way of this sort of relationship. If society won't step in to this role, it will revert to the traditional method. Namely, the father coming after the guy with a double-barrel shotgun.
I have a 12 year old daughter, and if in 3 years she introduces me to her 21 year old boyfriend and lets me know they are having sex the way I treat him will match the way he treats her.
If he treats her with dignity and respect then we'll get along just fine and I could care less about the age difference.
If he mistreats her in any way the cops will be the least of his concerns.
That's my point. If the guy is emotional abusing her it is not okay. If they have a mutual attraction I think 15 is old enough to know what she wants. You as her father should be free to forbid it while under your roof.
"If he could get chick his own age, he would. He can't."
And you know this about him, how, exactly? You spent the last 21 years inside his head, learning more about him than he knows about himself? Maybe she's just really nice to him and treats him as something more than an ATM.
I think it more likely that you're just a douche without a clue as to what a clue even is.
So much depends on whether or not the 21 year old has more in mind than laying her. Many 15 year olds are stupid about the approval of the group just older than their peer group the so desperately want to be a part of. You'd be a dick to use that to get laid.
This gets pretty close to the issue. Girls at that age and just desparate for approval in general - from eachother, from older peers, from everyone except their parents. The dynamics is really obvious between seniors and freshmen girls in highschool, and in college. It's just way too easy for a 21 year old to use that to manipulate much younger girls.
So what? As long as no force or coercion is involved, does it fucking matter whether the girl chooses to do something based on a desire for acceptance? Do you know so much better than her what she wants that you get to decide it's "wrong"?
This handwringing over teenage girls having sex is fucking asinine. People make some goofy choices in life. Voluntarily choosing to have sex with an older man sure as fuck doesn't hurt anyone, why the hell do you people care so fucking much?
Again: why? Why do you even give a shit? Young girls aren't allowed to try different things and learn from them? Why? Because sex is "bad"? Because otherwise I can't see a reason why you would want to pressure young girls from trying something that obviously interests them and doesn't hurt them.
Well, it does hurt them if they get involved with someone who is emotionally manipulative and abusive, which is a pretty high probability if the guy is 21 and is interested in banging 15 year olds.
Well, it does hurt them if they get involved with someone who is emotionally manipulative and abusive, which is a pretty high probability if the guy is 21 and is interested in banging 15 year olds.
You are assuming facts not in evidence.
What if he didn't realize she was jailbait when he met her? Hell, some guys don't even know until they're arrested! I have met many 30 year-old women that pass as jailbait and many more 15 year-old's that easily pass as legal.
why you would want to pressure young girls from trying something that obviously interests them and doesn't hurt them.
I think its the last point that is by no means clear to many of us. It certainly wouldn't be my working assumption that a 15 year old fucking a 21 year old is really not running any risks to be worried about.
Should stat rape be repealed? Maybe.
Should no one have any opinions on whether 21 year old men should fuck 15 year old girls? I think so. And I think they should be free to take those opinions into the social/civil arena.
" Because otherwise I can't see a reason why you would want to pressure young girls from trying something that obviously interests them and doesn't hurt them."
All of the young ladies I had sex with said it hurt.
But I think you're missing the point. Adults are held completely responsible for their actions and allowed to make their own decisions. Children are not. Where exactly that line is can be debated, but there has to be a line somewhere.
It's an even rarer 16 year old. But that's ok, because it's legal.
The 21 year old is more likely to see qualities in her that are attractive, *other than* the snug fit of her pootyparts - but that doesn't matter, right? As long as the age differential is sufficiently small, nothing else needs to be considered.
When I finished high school I was 17,I went to Canada with 5 friend a little older for two weeks fishing.Many fish were caught,many beers emptied. Hell I didn't even call home till we were on our way home.Good times
I think many of us agree that the sex offender registry is terrible. I'm with RC Dean on this. 21 year old "dating" a 15 year old is probably not a relationship between equals. The 21 year old has almost 1/3rd more life experience and probably the most valuable experience.
Regardless, that isn't for you or the government to judge. I find people talking about whether they get to judge (as in create legal standards and penalties, not just an opinion) whether a relationship between two physically adult people is "acceptable" to be highly disturbing.
You're absolutely right. I dated a 21 year old man when I was fifteen and he was no where near as experienced as me. He had lived his whole life in one town and I was his second girl friend, whereas I had lived in 5 different states and 2 foreign countries and he was my 20th or so lover (they tend to blur together--I'd have to dig up my little black book of names and addresses to get the exact number). I dumped him after a couple weeks because he was too immature and needy.
Without knowing the individuals involved, you can't tell shit just from ages.
And there is a huge experience gap between a 21-year-old chick and a 30-year-old successful businessman. Would you have a problem with that too? When does the experience gap become acceptable to you? And why should that even matter if the people involved have agency?
Is this supposed to be some kind of gotcha, Hazel? Because I have no problem with that from a relationship perspective. Both people were adults making choices.
I mean...is it your contention that Lewinsky was "taken advantage" of? You don't think she was totally into what they were doing?
Yeah, actually I kinda do think that Clinton basically used Lewinsky, then a young impressionable intern, and him the President of the fucking USA, for sex. What exactly did she get out of it? A cum stain and a cigar-fucking. The relationship was totally all about her giving him blow-jobs.
21 fucking 15 is not (one adult and one non-adult)
Problem is, "non-adult" is a gradient. A 15 year old isn't a child, but he or she isn't an adult either. Hell, a 21 year old is barely an adult nowadays. Personally, a 21 year old in a sexual relationship with a 15 year old doesn't raise my hackles as much as if it were a 12 year old. Not that I think a relation between a 21 year old and a 15 year old is the most desirable of situations; however, I don't think it falls under the same rubric of a 'sex offense'.
I'd say when they can get a job and independently support themselves and pay for the abortion or heroin habit themselves.
Dude, it's not about agency. It's about protecting your kids from the stupid, stupid decisions they will make until they're old enough to have the emotional and psychological maturity to deal with it on their own.
My own aren't. I can tell you that with no uncertainty right now.
I entered high school at 13. Almost everyone else was 14. If you were 15 and a freshman and your birthday wasn't on the cohort edge or something, you had been held back at some point. 15 was for sophomores, generally.
I graduated when I was 16. I was skipped ahead a grade in elementary. I joined the Navy on my 17th birthday. I did my entire first tour before it was legal for me to drink (which really really sucked).
Yes, scare him straight with a prison/probation sentence, but don't treat him like he's some guy in the bushes next to a high school wearing nothing under his raincoat.
I mean, 25 years? Do thieves have to register for 25 years after their sentence expires?
Nevermind the fact that it CLEARLY IS used as a punishment. Remember that kid in Florida who got sentanced to be put on the sex offender registry for sexting?
The fundamental problem with girls is they physically mature at a very young age (see Olympic-class gymnasts and pro tennis players in their teens). But mentally, they are not adults, and they are along way from adults.
15 to 21 is a huge gap in mental and emotional development. I was married and had two kids when I was 21. The idea that I could date a sophomore in high school if I had been single is absurd.
Seems like the manipulation argument goes in both directions. If you're a 15-year old girl banging a 21 year old boy you have some serious legal leverage to keep him in line. Not that teenage girls could be vindictive or anything.
Sure not too many but they are hardly non existant.
By 15 you're looking at somewhere between 1 and 5% of the population being mature enough to both want sex and use it to manipulate people.
When I was in High School I was a Junior in ROTC and one of the class commanders and I had a Freshman offer to sleep with me if I made her First Sgt of the class. Fortunately even back then I was smart enough to know not to stick it in crazy
If only it were that simple. Thing is, you got some kids pubertizing as early as age 9. But I agree, we should decide on one magic number and make everything legal to a person once they hit that age... and make sure they're well-educated on stuff like alcohol, drugs and sex before that age.
Remember, before the 20th century, people were marrying and starting families at age 15-16. And everything was legal.
Remember, before the 20th century, people were marrying and starting families at age 15-16. And everything was legal.
Check the bio of Loretta Lynn. Married before 16 in the United States wasn't uncommon well into the middle of the 20th century.
The major difference, however, was "life experience". Once upon a time, most young adults had at least enough skills to be independent, productive members of society. Living was simpler. Harder, but less complicated.
The technological revolution, however, has, to a great degree, changed that. Now, it takes a minimum of 10 - 14 years of "formal education" (in what passes for education system) on average for young adults to be prepared to be independent.
Consequently, they are dependent on their parents for much longer than before. And as long as they are dependent, they are infantilized and treated as "children".
Do you all realize the classification of "sex offender' is mandatory and automatic and you are not even ALLOWED to fight it, not even on appeal. The defense attorney can only angle that being listed on the registry "is cruel and unusual punishment."
Will this young man escape a terrible fate? Bring up this video on your computer and see a fine Ohio public defender, Katherine Ross-Kinzie, make the case that putting a scarlet letter on her client ? and potentially others ? is cruel and unusual punishment. Midway through, at the 17 and a half minute mark, Ryan Saunders, a young lawyer representing the Buckeye State, argues this is just what Travis Blankenship deserves and it's no big deal to be on that registry. Many of the judges jump in, too, with surprising questions.
Amidst the courtroom decorum there's even a shocking assertion indicating lust and/or love was involved in this case.
I'd be ready to call the cops or get my gun if a 21 year old boy fucked my 15 year old son in the ass. Why should I be jumping with joy if the same buy fucks my daughter in the pussy?
The sex offender list thing is an abomination.
But, OTOH, I'm not so sure a 21 year old banging a 15 year old (high school freshman, most likely) isn't a pretty legit object of concern and a legit stat rape charge.
Not a good thing to hang your Free Range Kids logo on, in any event. Free Range Kids should be about children playing, not teenagers banging adults.
Not a good thing to hang your Free Range Kids logo on, in any event.
Yep, that.
Exactly - suit the punishment to the crime - some imprisonment/probation, then once the guy repays his debt to society, let him on his way.
Now, I hope LS was simply lazy and put her Free Range logo on this article without thinking.
But surely extramarital sex like this is a threat to traditional marriage? Isn't that what you've been telling us all along? Surely he ruined the poor girl, and no good christian man would want damaged goods. And what if she were to become pregnant? I seem to recall that a significant number of abortions are performed on teenage girls.
The reason for that is that:
1) Teenage girls are too embarassed to ask for condoms or birth control pills
2) Teenage girls get pregnant really easily
Damn you, Hazel, why do you have to inject facts and logic into my taunting of Eddie? You just suck the fun right out of everything.
Sheesh, women - amiright?
Sorry, I noticed an interesting fact that I knew an explanation for.
Sometimes when I see something I think "Hah! I know why that is!" and feel compelled to post the reason.
What does he owe society, exactly?
Was it a public nuisance?
As far as I can tell, all he "owes" society is a big middle finger and a polite "fuck off, jackwagon."
15 could be anywhere from a Freshman to a Junior depending on the time of year it occurred but a Sophmore is more likely than Freshman and the whole problem with a hard age of consent that is above 16 is that there are a shit ton of 15 year olds who ARE more than capable of consenting to a relationship with a 21 year old
Agreed.
The age gap wouldn't be as big a deal if she was 17 and he was 23. But when you start getting down to the 15 year olds, these are girls who might be physically mature, but generally aren't emotionally or psychologically mature. I'm inclined to feel that adolescents should only be fucking other adolescents, so they aren't being exploited by an older, wiser adult. This would go for 15 year old boys too.
This would go for 15 year old boys too.
Yeah, that's one of those times when consistency is a bitch. The real issue is danger of pregnancy, and formerly loss of virginity; neither of which are issues with boys.
A 21 year old woman fucking a 15 year old boy sounds just as creepy to me as a 21 year old man fucking a 15 year old girl.
It's the emotional manipulation / abuse that I'm thinking about here.
Oh, it is creepy from the POV of other adults (but notably not by the standards of the boys). But most of us here, including me, have somewhat of a double-standard. Nobody threatens that slutty teacher (or whoever) with death for banging their HS boy. We propose a slap on the wrist for the woman, or firing if she's a teacher or suchlike; the boy gets off Scot-free, or at worst we suggest he pay token child support if the worst happens.
Actually I would bet from the POV of a 15 year old girl, there is nothing wrong with dating a 21 year old either.
It's from the adult perspective that we become aware of the ways in which older people can manipulate and abuse younger people, and the risks that it exposes them to.
So anything that might carry risk should be illegal?
I could see it being a status symbol thing for 15 year olds in general. The 15 year old boy gets to brag to his friends about having sex with hot older woman and the 15 year old girl can brag about having a boyfriend with a car and his own place.
A 21 year old woman fucking a 15 year old boy sounds just as creepy to me as a 21 year old man fucking a 15 year old girl.
I notice to switch woman/girl and man/boy in your statement. At what point do you make the switch from minor to major? What the determining factor? Is it 18 years old?
Yes, I'm assuming that 18 = adult,
Willing to bet the girl is the manipulator, here.
I'm thinking this should be looked at case-by-case, not with a one-size-fits-all approach.
Nothing in the article, or the link to the dispatch gives enough information to go on. Maybe she pursued him? Maybe she emotionally manipulated him?
Additionally, emotional manipulation happens at all ages and flows both ways.
But when you start getting down to the 15 year olds, these are girls who might be physically mature, but generally aren't emotionally or psychologically mature.
...
This would go for 15 year old boys too.
The problem I have with these lines is that, here we have a 21-yr.-old that is obviously well below average when it comes to wisdom of 21-yr.-olds. I know a lot of teenage guys who are more 'wise' than this moron.
The only real solution I can conceive of is to afford courts greater leeway but that doesn't overcome the 21 v. 15 ickiness.
here we have a 21-yr.-old that is obviously well below average when it comes to wisdom of 21-yr.-olds.
I don't know about that. There are plenty of 21 year old men who will bang anything that moves.
Where do you get the idea that a 21-y.o. is an "older, wiser adult."???? We are now being told kids brains don't fully develop into maturity for rational decision making until 25. So which is it? Adult or "child" at 21? And have you SEEN the average 21 year old guy lately? Hardly what I'd call a predatory, wiser, or even an adult in many cases.
Youngers are supposed to learn from elders - learning from one's contemporaries more often than not ends up going south in a big way - because the people you're learning from don't know what they're doing, either.
It's the deaf dumb and blind leading the deaf dumb and blind.
I need a little more info. If he drugged her or coerced her it was rape. If she wanted to do it, I think 15 is old enough for her to take responsibility for her choices.
Any strict age limit is going to have that problem, the lower the age the less grey it gets. I think reasonable people can disagree on exactly where to draw the line but I don't see what alternative there is to drawing a line somewhere. Personally, I would be fine with either 15 or 16.
Especially looking at the teen pregnancy rate. Seems foolish to try to legally pretend 15 or 16 year olds don't have sex when enough get pregnant for a show like 16 and Pregnant to exist.
If she wanted to do it, I think 15 is old enough for her to take responsibility for her choices.
Especially if the story is, "They had sex... and nothing else happened."
I'd want a 16-yr.-old who's roofy-ing/impregnating/intimidating girls his own age on the list a lot more than I want a 21-yr.-old who's stupid enough to fall for some jailbait.
Same here. I've met 15 year old boys who would worry me far more than this fool.
You and me both.
I think 15 is old enough for her to take responsibility for her choices.
Based on my microscopic sample of 15 year old girls that I know well enough to even hazard a guess, I'd say the odds are against it.
Yeah, at that age, taking responsibility for one's choices is more or less anathema. There's like a particular stage of brain development around that age where kids want independence with zero reponsibility.
The continual failure to think things through to the potential consequences is problem #1.
It's the same age as when they know unicorns aren't real, but they still really hope one shows up in their front yard.
Exactly, it's the age Sarah is at in Labyrinth.
I think 15 is old enough for her to take responsibility for her choices.
You must not know that many 15 year olds.
My own kids have some good decision making skills about some things, but not when it comes to the big picture.
Having found you in the past to be a pretty reasonable guy, I think you'll agree that simply drawing a statutory line around a couple of arbitrary ages is not justice. A better approach would be an acceptable range of ages that one could describe as 'reasonable' (as in the legal standard).
If a group (jury) of reasonable people (non-retards morally or intellectually) could describe the relationship as inappropriate and warranting juvenile rape charges, then sure press the charges. But if not, like in obvious cases like a 17 year old with a 19 year old there'd be no case. In the grey area cases like this there might be charges but no draconian sentencing possibility or requirement in the event of a conviction.
Once enough jury rulings occur to effectively establish a reliable precedent of legally appropriate age ranges and punishments for those ranges, real justice will be possible. Real justice develops naturally in regular human interaction, not arbitrary statutes and other government dictates.
Real justice develops naturally in regular human interaction, not arbitrary statutes and other government dictates.
What used to be called "common law", and has been largely eradicated by arbitrary statutes and other government dictates.
States have a way of arbitrarily eradicating justice.
That also allows the exact nature of the relationship to come into play. Something can be borderline squicky age gap wise but is otherwise a loving, decent relationship is probably more acceptable to most people than a minimal age gap involving abuse or manipuilation.
I'd much prefer a 25 year old and a 15 year old in a caring relationship than 2 25 year olds or 2 15 year olds in an abusive one.
Seems to me that a difference in age is infinitely less harmful than a knuckle sandwich.
+1
Maybe just a douchbag list then
Ohio 's Adam Walsh Act == stupidity
A 21 year-old fucking my 15 year-old daughter could have ended up in a shallow grave.
I don't have kids so I really can't relate, but if your daughter was a willing participant is it really rape? I can see forbidding her from having any future contact and punishing her, but murder.
I think that's a bit of rhetorical flourish. I'm sure he really meant a good beating.
The classic joke is to cleaning your shotgun when he comes to pick up your daughter for a date.
I actually had the father of a girl I dated do that when I picked her up for our first date. We were in high school.
I was so dense that I totally missed the point, and wound up chatting with him about quail hunting.
I imagine you still pass the test.
More than that, it is a justification for the law standing in the way of this sort of relationship. If society won't step in to this role, it will revert to the traditional method. Namely, the father coming after the guy with a double-barrel shotgun.
I have a 12 year old daughter, and if in 3 years she introduces me to her 21 year old boyfriend and lets me know they are having sex the way I treat him will match the way he treats her.
If he treats her with dignity and respect then we'll get along just fine and I could care less about the age difference.
If he mistreats her in any way the cops will be the least of his concerns.
That's my point. If the guy is emotional abusing her it is not okay. If they have a mutual attraction I think 15 is old enough to know what she wants. You as her father should be free to forbid it while under your roof.
21 years olds seeking out 15 year olds to bang speaks volumes as to his maturity level.
If he could get chick his own age, he would. He can't. That alone disqualifies him.
Thanks for playing. My daughter will meet you at the Burger king to see you behind my back.
"If he could get chick his own age, he would. He can't."
And you know this about him, how, exactly? You spent the last 21 years inside his head, learning more about him than he knows about himself? Maybe she's just really nice to him and treats him as something more than an ATM.
I think it more likely that you're just a douche without a clue as to what a clue even is.
+10, yo!
So much depends on whether or not the 21 year old has more in mind than laying her. Many 15 year olds are stupid about the approval of the group just older than their peer group the so desperately want to be a part of. You'd be a dick to use that to get laid.
This gets pretty close to the issue. Girls at that age and just desparate for approval in general - from eachother, from older peers, from everyone except their parents. The dynamics is really obvious between seniors and freshmen girls in highschool, and in college. It's just way too easy for a 21 year old to use that to manipulate much younger girls.
So what? As long as no force or coercion is involved, does it fucking matter whether the girl chooses to do something based on a desire for acceptance? Do you know so much better than her what she wants that you get to decide it's "wrong"?
This handwringing over teenage girls having sex is fucking asinine. People make some goofy choices in life. Voluntarily choosing to have sex with an older man sure as fuck doesn't hurt anyone, why the hell do you people care so fucking much?
I don't necessarily think it should result in jail time, but I do think it should be, at least, socially frowned upon.
Again: why? Why do you even give a shit? Young girls aren't allowed to try different things and learn from them? Why? Because sex is "bad"? Because otherwise I can't see a reason why you would want to pressure young girls from trying something that obviously interests them and doesn't hurt them.
Well, it does hurt them if they get involved with someone who is emotionally manipulative and abusive, which is a pretty high probability if the guy is 21 and is interested in banging 15 year olds.
You are assuming facts not in evidence.
What if he didn't realize she was jailbait when he met her? Hell, some guys don't even know until they're arrested! I have met many 30 year-old women that pass as jailbait and many more 15 year-old's that easily pass as legal.
why you would want to pressure young girls from trying something that obviously interests them and doesn't hurt them.
I think its the last point that is by no means clear to many of us. It certainly wouldn't be my working assumption that a 15 year old fucking a 21 year old is really not running any risks to be worried about.
Should stat rape be repealed? Maybe.
Should no one have any opinions on whether 21 year old men should fuck 15 year old girls? I think so. And I think they should be free to take those opinions into the social/civil arena.
" Because otherwise I can't see a reason why you would want to pressure young girls from trying something that obviously interests them and doesn't hurt them."
All of the young ladies I had sex with said it hurt.
But I think you're missing the point. Adults are held completely responsible for their actions and allowed to make their own decisions. Children are not. Where exactly that line is can be debated, but there has to be a line somewhere.
So much depends on whether or not the 21 year old has more in mind than laying her.
Its a rare 21 year old male who has more in mind than laying any female.
It's an even rarer 16 year old. But that's ok, because it's legal.
The 21 year old is more likely to see qualities in her that are attractive, *other than* the snug fit of her pootyparts - but that doesn't matter, right? As long as the age differential is sufficiently small, nothing else needs to be considered.
So you've never lived with a menstruating 15 year old girl. Lucky you.
I had a sister.
But you weren't responsible for her.
When I finished high school I was 17,I went to Canada with 5 friend a little older for two weeks fishing.Many fish were caught,many beers emptied. Hell I didn't even call home till we were on our way home.Good times
If Ohio is worried about young lives ruined, it could do well by not treating Travis Blankenship as a serial child predator.
I doubt the ruined lives of people are what prosecutors or legislators in Ohio concern themselves with.
I think many of us agree that the sex offender registry is terrible. I'm with RC Dean on this. 21 year old "dating" a 15 year old is probably not a relationship between equals. The 21 year old has almost 1/3rd more life experience and probably the most valuable experience.
Regardless, that isn't for you or the government to judge. I find people talking about whether they get to judge (as in create legal standards and penalties, not just an opinion) whether a relationship between two physically adult people is "acceptable" to be highly disturbing.
You're absolutely right. I dated a 21 year old man when I was fifteen and he was no where near as experienced as me. He had lived his whole life in one town and I was his second girl friend, whereas I had lived in 5 different states and 2 foreign countries and he was my 20th or so lover (they tend to blur together--I'd have to dig up my little black book of names and addresses to get the exact number). I dumped him after a couple weeks because he was too immature and needy.
Without knowing the individuals involved, you can't tell shit just from ages.
Yeah, a 21 year old has 3 years of college behind him.
A 15 year old has three years of high school in front of her. Huge experience gap.
And there is a huge experience gap between a 21-year-old chick and a 30-year-old successful businessman. Would you have a problem with that too? When does the experience gap become acceptable to you? And why should that even matter if the people involved have agency?
What about a 21 year old intern and a 45 year old President?
Is this supposed to be some kind of gotcha, Hazel? Because I have no problem with that from a relationship perspective. Both people were adults making choices.
I mean...is it your contention that Lewinsky was "taken advantage" of? You don't think she was totally into what they were doing?
Yeah, actually I kinda do think that Clinton basically used Lewinsky, then a young impressionable intern, and him the President of the fucking USA, for sex. What exactly did she get out of it? A cum stain and a cigar-fucking. The relationship was totally all about her giving him blow-jobs.
If she was cool with it, and he didn't coerce or otherwise force her, then so what?
21 and 15 is a small gap than between my wife and me.
*smaller
Did you marry her when she was 15?
No, we met when she was 19. I don't think you could get away with that even in Thailand.
29 marrying 19 is socially acceptable (both adults)
21 fucking 15 is not (one adult and one non-adult)
Problem is, "non-adult" is a gradient. A 15 year old isn't a child, but he or she isn't an adult either. Hell, a 21 year old is barely an adult nowadays. Personally, a 21 year old in a sexual relationship with a 15 year old doesn't raise my hackles as much as if it were a 12 year old. Not that I think a relation between a 21 year old and a 15 year old is the most desirable of situations; however, I don't think it falls under the same rubric of a 'sex offense'.
I agree. It's something more on the icky, society should not approve side. Like obvious gold-digger relationships, married for the Green Card, etc.
I'd say when they can get a job and independently support themselves and pay for the abortion or heroin habit themselves.
Dude, it's not about agency. It's about protecting your kids from the stupid, stupid decisions they will make until they're old enough to have the emotional and psychological maturity to deal with it on their own.
My own aren't. I can tell you that with no uncertainty right now.
When I grew up, a 15 year old would be right in the middle of high school...
When I grew up, 15 years old was pretty much a freshman. A few sophomores, a few at the very end of middle school.
This could easily be a college senior banging a high school freshman. Best case, its a college junior banging a high school sophomore.
Neither passes my smell test. Not by a mile.
nope
I entered high school at 13. Almost everyone else was 14. If you were 15 and a freshman and your birthday wasn't on the cohort edge or something, you had been held back at some point. 15 was for sophomores, generally.
Graduate at 17-18
Finish junior year at 16-17
Finish sophomore year at 15-16
Finish freshman year at 14-15
I was "old" and graduated at 18, most of my peers were still 17 when they graduated.
I graduated when I was 16. I was skipped ahead a grade in elementary. I joined the Navy on my 17th birthday. I did my entire first tour before it was legal for me to drink (which really really sucked).
You are the exception to the rule
15 was for sophomores, generally.
Gosh, Epi, I . . .
Best case, its a college junior banging a high school sophomore.
already covered that.
Yes, scare him straight with a prison/probation sentence, but don't treat him like he's some guy in the bushes next to a high school wearing nothing under his raincoat.
I mean, 25 years? Do thieves have to register for 25 years after their sentence expires?
Ugh. This, asset forfeiture, various regulatory shenanigans -- this "civil not criminal" / "not a punishment" bullshit is maddening.
Nevermind the fact that it CLEARLY IS used as a punishment. Remember that kid in Florida who got sentanced to be put on the sex offender registry for sexting?
I was thinking that story would be a better one for this article?
The fundamental problem with girls is they physically mature at a very young age (see Olympic-class gymnasts and pro tennis players in their teens). But mentally, they are not adults, and they are along way from adults.
15 to 21 is a huge gap in mental and emotional development. I was married and had two kids when I was 21. The idea that I could date a sophomore in high school if I had been single is absurd.
Who's the admitted statutory rapist who used to post here? Plopper? That sounds right.
Uh, that guy is an admitted pedophile, not a "statutory rapist", if I recall correctly.
I'm a little gunshy about throwing out the big P. Enjoy your lawsuit, chump.
I never admitted to either.
Not unless admitting to fooling around with a 15 year old when I was 6 counts, that is.
Seems right
Seems like the manipulation argument goes in both directions. If you're a 15-year old girl banging a 21 year old boy you have some serious legal leverage to keep him in line. Not that teenage girls could be vindictive or anything.
Spot on Kilroy.
Not too many 15 year old girls would be smart enough to figure that out. Anyway, they would be too afraid of getting dumped.
Sure not too many but they are hardly non existant.
By 15 you're looking at somewhere between 1 and 5% of the population being mature enough to both want sex and use it to manipulate people.
When I was in High School I was a Junior in ROTC and one of the class commanders and I had a Freshman offer to sleep with me if I made her First Sgt of the class. Fortunately even back then I was smart enough to know not to stick it in crazy
I remember when I was younger some 13 year old girls that looked and acted 21. Sounds like he knew though.
Yes, they all try to look and act like they are 21. That doesn't mean that they ARE 21.
(Remember the blond chick from American Beauty).
Yes, they all try to look and act like they are 21. That doesn't mean that they ARE 21.
(Remember the blond chick from American Beauty).
21-year-old who had a 15-year-old girlfriend
Ugh, I thought it was the other way around. Creep.
that walsh kid still ruining people's lives even after he died
Make puberty the threshold of legal adulthood - problem solved.
If only it were that simple. Thing is, you got some kids pubertizing as early as age 9. But I agree, we should decide on one magic number and make everything legal to a person once they hit that age... and make sure they're well-educated on stuff like alcohol, drugs and sex before that age.
Remember, before the 20th century, people were marrying and starting families at age 15-16. And everything was legal.
Check the bio of Loretta Lynn. Married before 16 in the United States wasn't uncommon well into the middle of the 20th century.
The major difference, however, was "life experience". Once upon a time, most young adults had at least enough skills to be independent, productive members of society. Living was simpler. Harder, but less complicated.
The technological revolution, however, has, to a great degree, changed that. Now, it takes a minimum of 10 - 14 years of "formal education" (in what passes for education system) on average for young adults to be prepared to be independent.
Consequently, they are dependent on their parents for much longer than before. And as long as they are dependent, they are infantilized and treated as "children".
Do you all realize the classification of "sex offender' is mandatory and automatic and you are not even ALLOWED to fight it, not even on appeal. The defense attorney can only angle that being listed on the registry "is cruel and unusual punishment."
Will this young man escape a terrible fate? Bring up this video on your computer and see a fine Ohio public defender, Katherine Ross-Kinzie, make the case that putting a scarlet letter on her client ? and potentially others ? is cruel and unusual punishment. Midway through, at the 17 and a half minute mark, Ryan Saunders, a young lawyer representing the Buckeye State, argues this is just what Travis Blankenship deserves and it's no big deal to be on that registry. Many of the judges jump in, too, with surprising questions.
Amidst the courtroom decorum there's even a shocking assertion indicating lust and/or love was involved in this case.
http://www.ohiochannel.org/Med.....eId=146024
Then don't fuck kids, perv.
I'd be ready to call the cops or get my gun if a 21 year old boy fucked my 15 year old son in the ass. Why should I be jumping with joy if the same buy fucks my daughter in the pussy?
Yeah, I've seen that on ads on here.
This is why the fish in the aquarium stop swimming when Tundra comes over to visit!
It can totally happen. Of course, the older you get the less easily manipulated you are. But 16 and 18 are still relatively naive ages.
It would never happen if he were 16 rather than 21, too, right?
Actually, it's more likely that the 16 year old would be manipulative, not having as much (or even any at all) experience with intimate relationships.