Sex

In Defense of Drunk Sex

They warned us for years, "Don't drink and drive." Now it's, "Don't drink and fuck."

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Is it acceptable to have drunk sex? Most people who aren't citizens of the Islamic State or followers of some frigid Christian group will answer with an emphatic: "Hell, yeah." Not only is it acceptable, they'll think; it's good, one of life's great pleasures, a rare moment when you can ditch the pesky rational thinking required in everyday life and instead abandon yourself—mind, soul, and genitals—to a moment of dumb, beautiful joy.

Well, enjoy it while you can, folks. Because like everything else pleasurable in the 21st century—smoking in a bar, complimenting a lady on her looks, drinking a bucket-sized Coke—drunk sex is under attack from that new caste of killjoys who wouldn't recognize fun if it offered to buy them a drink ("unwanted sexual advance.") Drunk sex is being demonized, even criminalized: turned from something that can be either wonderful or awkward into, effectively, rape. They warned us for years, "Don't drink and drive." Now it's, "Don't drink and fuck."

Alison Saunders, Britain's Director of Public Prosecutions, the boss lady of all the British state's legal actions against suspected lawbreakers, has issued new advice on rape. Sent to cops around Britain as part of a "toolkit" of tips for dealing with rape cases, it says society must move "beyond the old saying 'no means no'." Because apparently women are sometimes incapable of saying no when they would probably like to. When? When they're shit-faced, as Americans say; or pissed as a fart, as us Brits prefer.

"It is not a crime to drink," said Saunders (she might have added a "yet," because I'm sure some teetotaler in the corridors of British power is working on this), but it is a crime "to target someone who is no longer capable of consenting to sex through drink," she continued. And she wants the law to be better able to deal with what the press has called those "grey areas" (50 Shades of Grey areas?) in which sex happens when someone is "incapacitated through drink or drugs." Her advice to cops and lawyers is that in every case of allegedly dodgy, drunk, disputed sex, they should demand of the suspect: "How did [you] know the complainant was saying yes and doing so freely and knowingly?"

There are many terrifying things about this advice. The first is its subtle shifting of the burden of proof so that it falls to the defendant to prove that the claimant said "yes" rather than to the claimant to prove she said "no" and was ignored. As Sarah Vine of the Daily Mail says, this could lead to a situation where "men in rape cases [will] automatically be presumed guilty until they can prove they obtained consent." In essence, this would mean sex becoming default a crime until you, the drunk dude who slept with the drunk girl, can prove that your sex wasn't malevolent. Imagine raising such an idea in the year in which we celebrate the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta, midwife of the presumption of innocence, which for centuries guarded citizens from the whims and prejudices of the mighty state and powerful prosecutors like Ms. Saunders.

But even worse is her thought-free mash-up of drunk sex and rape, as if they're the same. When Saunders talks about sex that happens while one or both parties is hammered, she's sticking her snout—the state's snout—into what for many people is a perfectly normal part of life: college parties, house parties, youthful get-togethers, at which the truly shocking thing would be to see sober people getting it on.

She's following the lead of the campus killjoys: the Orwellian junior sex leagues masquerading as feminists who for a decade have been turning student sex into something foul and potentially criminal.

On both sides of the Atlantic, campuses that were once hotbeds of anti-The Man radicalism have become conveyor belts of conformist policymaking, particularly in relation to anything that has what these prudish heirs to Andrea Dworkin consider to be the rancid whiff of s*x. And what kind of sex do they loathe most? Drunk sex.

Numerous colleges now insist that it isn't possible to consent to sex if you're three sheets to the wind, which means that all sexual acts carried out under the influence are potential crimes. The University of Georgia warns students that sexual consent must be "voluntary, sober, imaginative, enthusiastic, creative, wanted, informed, mutual, honest." There are many problematic words in that—"imaginative"? Can't we consent to sex unimaginatively, maybe by saying "Oh, go on then"?—but the most problematic is "sober." Apparently sex must always be booze-free.

These consent commandments are found on campuses across the West. At Oxford and Cambridge in the U.K., sexual consent classes are now compulsory for all freshmen (Compulsory classes on consent? What delicious, Orwellian irony.) At these classes, students are told they must be of "sound and sober mind" to consent to sex. So, no paralytic, sozzled, WTF sex.

The University of Wyoming takes this authoritarian downer on drunk sex to its logical conclusion by warning students: "Sex that occurs while a partner is intoxicated or high is not consensual… it is sexual assault." If this stipulation were enforced retroactively, pretty much every person I went to university with could be arrested for rape. Everyone had a blind-drunk bang at some point, because it was fun.

Some of the sex-scared authoritarianism on campus merely mirrors shifts in certain states' law, where intoxication is increasingly said to void consent. But elsewhere, the student anti-sex leagues are helping to reshape the law, as can be seen in Saunders' enthusiastic embrace of the idea that drunk sex is A Very Bad Thing.

It's hard to know what is most repulsive about this creeping criminalization of shit-faced sex. Is it the way it infantilizes women with its sexist implication that they are less capable of negotiating sexual encounters while drunk than men, hence the drunk man must shoulder responsibility for these apparently depraved shenanigans? This echoes the temperance movements of the late 19th century, which likewise warned dainty ladies that getting blotto would lead to sexual misadventure and downfall. Or is it the way it demonizes men, turning even the sweet, utterly non-violent young lad who has to have eight vodkas to buck up the courage to sleep with his beau into that most heinous of criminals: a rapist? Or is it the fact that its aim is to deprive us of one of the great hoots of human life: stupid sex, where you don't know or care what is going on, where the condom is, or even if she's on the Pill? That moment of madness, that instant when feeling takes over and your brain has a night off, that time when you can't string a sentence together but somehow you can still have sex… seriously, students, you should try this.

The big problem is the shift in recent years from talking about rape to "sex without consent." Rape is a violent word that describes a conscious act by a wicked man (usually) to defy a woman who says no and to force sex on her. Disgusting. Lock him up. But "sex without consent" is a totally different phrase: it's more passive, signalling an act that doesn't require criminal intent and which can cover everything from rape as it was once understood to drunk sex, drugged-up sex, or regretted sex. We've gone from punishing those who rape to casting a vast blanket of suspicion over anyone who has sex. But the fact is—and please don't hate me—sex isn't always 100 percent consensual. Especially after booze. Sometimes it's instinctual, thoughtless, animalistic. Sometimes it just happens. It's sex without consent—that is, without explicit, clearly stated, sober consent—but it ain't rape. It's sex.

The cultivation of the new crime of "sex without consent" completes the state's intervention into private life. It effectively makes the authorities into the arbiters of sex itself, the judges of when sex is okay and when it isn't, of whether a particular drunken romp is acceptable or rape. Don't drink and fuck, or the state will fuck you—with or without your consent.

NEXT: Sheldon Richman on How the War of 1812 Eroded U.S. Liberalism

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  1. can I still have sex on coke and meth at least?

    1. After the sexual revolution, sex on stimulants will be mandatory.

      1. It’s a bright future my friend.

        1. The future’s so bright, I gotta wear 50 Shades of Grey

          1. Sex with restraints? Threats of pain? “No” doesn’t necessarily mean no? You’re going to jail, pal.

            1. If it isn’t instinctive, thoughtless and animalistic, you aren’t doing it right. That being said, if you want me to stop, you would get better results by saying “Andrea Dworkin”.

              1. Get me to stop by saying “Hillary Clinton”.

    2. Depends on how long you want it to last.

      Do you have all night?

      1. *checks schedule*

        I guess I can push back shooting rats at the dump.

        1. Why not both?

          1. Have you even gotten hot brass on bare skin?

            1. It’s hilarious! (when it’s not you)

              1. Clothes pin on the nipple is fun, too. Just make sure she’s bound and securely gagged first.

                1. No point taking a chance she might not consent . . .

          2. Why not shoot rats at the dump WHILE having wild drunken sex?!?! No reason why NOT to, that I can see…

        2. I’m curious whether any political party has claimed the rat as its mascot.

          1. You can’t spell Libertarian without Rat!

            1. When I grow up I want to be a Ratbertarian

            2. Democrat

              1. Took long enough.

    3. I prefer weed.

      1. +1 whiskey dick

  2. As Sarah Vine of the Daily Mail says, this could lead to a situation where “men in rape cases [will] automatically be presumed guilty until they can prove they obtained consent.”

    A possibility which Ezra Klein, hereby repudiating any claim to the appellation of “liberal,” gleefully embraced. Don’t mistakenly assume these people aren’t driving at precisely this outcome. Shifting the burden of proof is not a myopic consequence of such a policy, it’s their end-game.

    1. If shifting the burden of proof sends just one rapist to jail, don’t we have to try?

      1. Do you think this policy will increase or decrease the amount of rape in prison?

        1. Silly. Rape is something a man does to a woman. A man cannot be raped.

    2. Like it isn’t this way now.

    3. I say this all goes way if we eliminate progressives. With extreme micro-aggression.

  3. “followers of some frigid Christian group”

    Such frigidity tends to manifest itself in saying (a) you have to be married to have sex and (b) sex should be with the person to whom you are married.

    Within that framework, there are Christian groups which say don’t drink at all – it’s not limited to sex. Those “frigid” groups which nevertheless allow imbibing probably won’t object to a drunk night of passion with your spouse.

    1. won’t object to a drunk night of passion with your spouse

      But I would have an issue with them having a “night of passion” with MY spouse, GKC!

      Geez…

    2. Hmmmmmm…………….

      My husband had sex with me while I was in a drunken state. Should I divorce him?

      http://www.slate.com/articles/…..buse_.html

      1. But even a married couple who have had sex hundreds of times can enjoy that alcohol might ignite a delightful, spontaneous encounter. Your approach, however, seems to be to treat your sex life as if it is subject to regulatory review by the Department of Health and Human Services. Your prim, punctilious, punitive style has me admiring your put-upon husband’s ability to even get it up, given the possibility he’ll be accused of rape?or turn himself in for it!?if one of you fails a breathalyzer test. Living in terror that expressing one’s perfectly normal sexual desire could end one’s marriage, and freedom, is itself a form of abuse. Stop acting like a parody of a gender-studies course catalog and start acting like a loving wife. If you can’t, then give the poor sap a divorce.

        DAYYUUM! Bitch got rekt!

        1. to treat your sex life as if it is subject to regulatory review by the Department of Health and Human Services

          I for one think of Sebelius to prolong the encounter.

          1. Regret rape, six years after the fact.

        2. Prudence is lucky they don’t have comments on her article. Can you just imagine? As it is there are probably people starting a whitehouse.com petition to get the privileged cis lady fired.

          1. Dear Prudence, you’re awesome!

          2. er, it’s a slate article, it has comments.

        3. “Stop acting like a parody of a gender-studies course catalog and start acting like a loving wife.”

          I’m surprised Salon would allow this to be published.

      2. I think the letter is a parody.

        1. How would you know anymore?

        2. I’m just going to assume it is, because the world in which it isn’t is not a world I want to live in.

      3. I can’t believe this privileged cis white woman is making excuses for marital rape. What the hell makes her think that a husband has any more right to assume consent than a frat boy with his one-night stand? The fact that a woman has consented before, or a hundred times before, does not create any presumption of consent. To hold otherwise is to penalize a woman for having given consent previously. Affirmative consent must *always* be obtained, each time. No exceptions.

        (I dare you to tell me that women’s studies professors won’t be arguing this five years from now.)

        1. I tried to tell you that while drinking a glass of milk.

          It didn’t end well.

        2. Five years? Try five minutes.

        3. errr …. pretty sure this is already Accepted Dogma

        4. (I dare you to tell me that women’s studies professors won’t be arguing this five years from now.)

          Five years ago, there were plenty who were vocal about the redefinition of marriage and that it would turn out for the worse.

          They were nutjobs, but it hasn’t stopped all the other nutjobs from doing their utmost to prove them right.

    3. “…there are Christian groups which say don’t drink at all…”

      And here I’d always been under the impression the Jesus’ first miracle was brewing up a shitload of alcoholic beverage for a wild wedding party.

      1. I agree, but *some* Protestants don’t see it that way. Just stating the facts.

        1. who are we to believe? a bunch of Protestants, or the Word of God?

      2. That event pre-dates the invention of the drive up window at liquor stores.

      3. My fellow Christians (mostly Baptists) really don’t like it when I bring that up. Even the wedding coordinator said in effect that most people don’t wait until the people are drunk before bringing in the good stuff…

        Ah, Jesus. Always messing with the legalists…

        BTW, sex outside marriage is still wrong; but man, within marriage, it’s awesome.

      4. I always thought it was “don’t get drunk”, as in, “everything in moderation”

  4. “stupid sex, where you don’t know or care what is going on, where the condom is, or even if she’s on the Pill? That moment of madness, that instant when feeling takes over and your brain has a night off, that time when you can’t string a sentence together but somehow you can still have sex? seriously, students, you should try this.”

    You’ve got to be kidding me.

    It’s one thing to say drunk sex isn’t automatically (or even presumptively) rape, it’s another thing to endorse libertinism to that extent. This conservatism which not only lets its hair down, but lets its pants down, too.

    1. And I must say, coeds today are into the real rough stuff. Whenever I go up to a coed and ask for sex, she pepper-sprays me, and I’m not into that kinky stuff, so I get out of there.

      /a joke

    2. Well, what’s the trouble when any sort of “consequences” of one’s actions can be ahem…”vacuumed” away.

      1. I’m glad *somebody* mentioned that!

      2. BRIAN, DON’T!

        1. Babababa bird bird bird…..

      3. You can get a morning after pill without prescription.

        1. You can get a morning stiffy the same way. . .

      4. Vacuumed away?

        is that a cure for herpes ?

    3. You’ve got to be kidding me.

      Fuck off Eddie, go fuck the pope.

      1. Sorry…

        …that was terrible sentence composition.

        Fuck off Eddie. Go fuck the pope.

        Better?

      2. *smooches*

        1. You have to admit, you ARE a bit of a prude.

          Or a LOT of a prude.

          Face it. You’re a prude.

          1. Compared to this article, Victoria Woodhull was a prude.

            1. It makes no difference who or what you are, old or young, black or white, pagan, Jew, or Christian, I want to love you all and be loved by you all, and I mean to have your love.
              Victoria Woodhull

            2. I do not shake hands from a sanitary standpoint.
              Victoria Woodhull

          2. Sex is powerful. That kind of power frightens people like SoCons and feminists, and it must therefore be carefully regulated to dilute it’s power and their fear.

            1. What you say it true. However, the SoCons will be regulated by public opinion and the media. The Prog fems will not come under such scrutiny.

              1. I don’t know, this latest bit of silliness has been widely covered in less than fawning ways.

            2. Ah, yes, the old “I’m concerned, you’re fearful” trope.

              Anyway, just because SoCons have certain ideas about sex doesn’t mean they fear it.

              1. Fine. Have your ideas. Practice them yourself and allow the rest of us to practice ours.

                1. “allow the rest of us to practice ours”

                  I missed the part where I was stopping you.

                  *smooches*

                  1. Yes, Socons (or their past equivalent) aren’t interfering in the sexlives of people, Eddie…

                    1. There are sodomy laws still on the books in some states.
                    2. Prostitution laws.
                    3. Obscenity laws.
                    4. Laws regulating strip clubs.
                    5. Laws about where pornography can be sold.
                    6. Laws outlawing the sale of vibrators.

                    That’s off the top of my head without even getting into abortion.

                    Where do you stand on legalizing prostitution, Eddie?

                    Fuck off!

                    1. Now that Master has given control of the Internet to Sam it’s a mere matter of time before the number one reason people have internet access will be gone to obscenity laws; limitless Free Porn.

                    2. RIP Unlawful Content

                    3. I’m against 1* and 6, on the fence about 2, highly skeptical of 3, and support confining 4 and 5 to largely non-residential neighborhoods.

                      Too much nuance for you?

                      * I called for repeal of sodomy laws while there were still on the books and being (sporadically) enforced, thanks for your concern.

                    4. See. You admit to 3. I don’t know what being skeptical about obscenity laws even means. Are you skeptical they exist? More weasel words from Mr “cloak my real meaning.”

                      And don’t even try to tell me these laws didn’t originate with the bible thumpers. So don’t feed me bullshit about how your ilk aren’t in favor of stopping me from having consensual sex.

                      Mendacious twat.

                    5. Someone needs a hug! Which should totally be legal!

                    6. I think there were also laws that used the term “buggery.”

                    7. What kind of bugs?

                    8. #3 I call bullshit

                      I live south of Houston which has been controled by Democrats for as long as I can remember. The current mayor is a Progressive jihadist lesbian who recently tried to subpoena the records and sermons of some Houston pastors who disagreed with a city law she supported.. Charles Barkley has said on air that Houston has the best topless clubs in America and that some NBA players love to play in Houston for that reason.

                      Houston has been at war with those strip clubs for decades trying to get them shut down. A handfull of lawyers have made a career from defending the strip clubs from th Democrat controlled City of Houston.

                    9. ooops #4 not #3

                    10. We have no right to dictate to a woman what to do with her body.

                      We don’t have the right to tell her she can’t voluntarily prostitute herself.

                      You cannot agree with the first in the context of abortion without agreeing to the second in the context of prostitution. Therefore prostitution should be legal.

              2. If concerned it’s about people telling other people way to do. What you’re concerned about is people not doing what you tell them to do

                1. I *do* recall telling you what to do. It rhymed with “chuck boff.”

              3. You know what? You know what?

                I’m going to go put something in my butt right now just to prove a point to you!

                I don’t know what point, but you just wait mister!

      3. What does the Pope have to do with Brendan O’Neill romanticizing how people get herpes?

        1. HM’s a prude as well, huh?

        2. What does the Pope have to do with Brendan O’Neill romanticizing how people get herpes?

          Eddie. Eddie is the connection.

          It’s his excuse for ensuring there is no joy in his life, and that’s okay as it’s his choice to be miserable. But he thinks everyone else needs to be miserable with him.

          So perhaps if Eddie had a homosexual affair with the pope, they’d both loosen up and let the rest of us enjoy ourselves without having to listen to their fucking condescension. (/PTIC)

          1. But he thinks everyone else needs to be miserable with him.

            The very defining factor of Catholicism.

          2. It’s very much your problem. I don’t know what deep-seated issues you don’t want to face that his presence apparently makes inescapable, but get help.

    4. Sadly, I suffer from profound whiskey dick. Like three beers in and I’m rowing a boat with a rope. While this saved me from many, many poor decisions in my twenties, there were definitely some booze-filled evenings of pseudo-debauchery that I owe to Messrs. Beam, Daniels, Miller, and Bacardi.

      As an adult with a mortgage and a “real” job, with a wife and a baby on the way, I can appreciate that random drunken sex is not wise. As a young man, I did many, many things that I wouldn’t endorse for my own children. However, my life is much richer for those experiences, and I sincerely hope my kids do all the same stupid shit I did and escape into maturity without too much damage. Maybe that’s libertinism to you, but to me that’s just enjoying the one shot at life you have. I think there’s room for just a little bit of libertinism in everyone’s lives without too much harm.

  5. “Sex that occurs while a partner is intoxicated or high is not consensual? it is sexual assault.” If this stipulation were enforced retroactively, pretty much every person I went to university with could be arrested for rape.

    Let’s be honest, more than a few of them were the products of shitfaced sexaul encounters.

    1. It’s spelled “sexmaul”. It’s like a sex hammer but bigger.

      1. It’s used to hammer in the sex chisel.

        1. Is that something like a wedgie?

      2. Great, now I have Peter Gabriel’s Sledgehammer, but with an altered chorus, stuck in my head.

    2. Whats worse is the lack of logic and double standard involved. They say that a person who’s drunk cannot consent to sex and thus is not responsible for their actions, even if they said yes while drunk. However, by being male, you are automatically responsible for your actions, thus a drunk male having sex (even if the drunk girl initiates) is guilty of rape the and the drunk girl is a victim.

      1. Then that must mean that they recognise the superior moral strenth of men.

        Right ? RIght ??

        RIGHT ?

        1. Indeed.

          maybe there is other stuff men should do for women…like voting.

    3. They were the product of anal sex.

  6. You know who else had regretful drunken sex?…

    1. John Bobbitt?

      1. Shut it down. He won it.

        1. -1 you know what

    2. Mr. and Mrs. Shicklgruber?

      1. Excellent cultural reference, I get it!!!
        Please see http://www.churchofsqrls.com/sonograms/ , by the way, for relevant comments… Had Mr. and Mrs. Shicklgruber had access to certain modern medical processes and technologies, they might have been able to un-do their mistake…

  7. Don’t have drunk sex. This could happen to you.

    1. Damn. That’s a cute kid. Must take after it’s momma. ;-0

      1. Actually, he looks like the mailman.

        1. Does that baby look black to you?

          1. He could simply be a fair skinned Afro-American (is that term still acceptable?)…

            RACIST!

            1. I think the current term is “Mr. President.”

          2. Substitute carrier that day?

          3. He does have a big nose.

            1. *whispers*
              He’ a jew

              1. lo fucking l

                1. But wait. Why doesn’t he have one of those beenie cao things on then ?

                  Id he… Undercover Jew ?

                  It could be a new cop show.

                  1. or reality banking show !

      2. Thanks. All of my boys do. Unfortunately, one of them got her build, too.

    2. Or if, like my brother, the multitude of unprotected sexual encounters in your twenties causes you to suspect your motility.

      1. That could be the case. But it takes 2 to tango. Some girls don’t get pregnant very easily.

        But if any of those girls were hispanic, then yeah, he’s probably sterile.

  8. Damn just in time for college.

    1. RAPIST!

  9. It hasn’t been a decade. The “enthusiastic consent” crowd was around in the early 80’s when I was in school. The emphasis at the time was that you (men) had to garner explicit permission at each phase of sexual contact:

    “May I hold your hand?”

    “May I kiss you?”

    “Would you like it if I kissed you with tongue?”

    etc.

    This was the orientation given to us in 1983 at UNC Chapel Hill.

    The “both people are drunk = man is a rapist” argument had already begun. I even wrote a couple of papers on the topic. The entire premise is so self-contradictory it makes my head explode. The idea is that if a woman is intoxicated, she is incapable of consent. But if a man is similarly intoxicated, he is capable of determining the level of intoxication of his partner and forming the criminal intent behind a sexual assault.

    There were many cases at the time of “remorse rape”, where two students got drunk and hooked up – regretting it in the morning. Somehow the male student was invariably guilty of a crime.

    1. This was the orientation given to us in 1983

      And, as students, we laughed at their absurdity.

      I wonder if they still laugh at this shit or if they buy into it? I mean is it just us getting our panties in a twist and the kids are as rebellious as ever, or are they actually complying with these ridiculous nonsense?

      1. I’m sure many/most do laugh at it. But then kids (rightly) laugh at everything in an orientation.

    2. How would anyone be guilty of a DUI if intoxication, however slight, negates consent?

      1. IIRC, that defense worked a few times, but not for long.

        1. When did that defense work, and why does it not work for long?

          It seems to me that to be guilty of a crime, you must have chosen to do the prohibited act. Criminal liability is not slapped onto people without regard to the actual choices that they make.

          1. youre adorable. go buy some cold medication in bulk and use the mens rea defense. let us know how it works out.

  10. On behalf of drunk bitches everywhere, I object to this standard. How we gonna get laid?

    1. Perhaps a convenient T-shirt or wearable accessory with a pre-signed consent form? I bet you’d be all the hit at the bars.

    2. Worse, how are UGLY people (male or female) going to get laid without alcohol? They might resort to actually raping someone then…. Talk about your all time backfires!

      1. Good lighting is another obstacle.

  11. You know who was conceived as a result of drunk sex?

    1. You.

      Ask me how I know!

      1. I did not come here to be made sport of!

        1. Then you came to the wrong place

    2. Hitler?

      1. +1 Always

    3. Chelsea Clinton?

      1. You mean Mallory’s my mom!?!

      2. Webb Hubbell.

  12. This whole thing would be a joke if the feminists didn’t have the ability to railroad young men at the universities.

    1. It’s ironc that when a bunch of women railroad a man at university it is called justice, but if a bunch of men railroad a women…well, it is considered something else entirely

      1. A train?

        1. WOO! WOO!
          *tugs imaginary train whistle rope*

          1. A pelvic thrust would also be acceptable.

            1. Only if you do a few of the arm-chug motions first (the motion of the connecting rods, you know what I’m talking about.)

      2. Rhymes with brain?…

        1. Also cum stain!

          1. The dress was blue with a presidential white stain. Blue dress cheesing.

  13. Progressivism is the elimination of individual responsibility. PERIOD!

    You don’t need to act responsibly. Nothing is your fault. If something bad results from your actions, we’ll blame it on another and the state will take care of you.

    What they don’t tell you, is when you eliminate risk, you also eliminate joy.

    I despise them.

    1. “Modern liberalism suffers unresolved contradictions. It exalts individualism and freedom and, on its radical wing, condemns social orders as oppressive. On the other hand, it expects governments to provide materially for all, a feat manageable only by an expansion of authority and a swollen bureaucracy. In other words, liberalism defines government as tyrant father but demands it behave as nurturant mother. Feminism has inherited these contradictions.” Camille Paglia, who (judging by her wikiquotes page, anyway) appears to be an interesting person.

      1. Interesting, indeed.

        Leaving sex to the feminists is like letting your dog vacation at the taxidermist.

        Camille Paglia

    2. Hear, hear!

  14. They killed the “Walk of Shame”.

    1. The walk of shame never should have been a thing. Women like sex. What is there to be ashamed of?

      1. lowered standards.

  15. OT: guy kills himself, meanwhile the girl that encouraged him via text charged with involuntary manslaughter

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015…..d-suicide/

    1. Lots of details missing from the article. I think it is a bogus charge though.

  16. I was listening to NPR this morning (cue “that’s your first problem” comments) about a play involving a judge who interprets the constitution the way the founders meant it to be.

    It sounded interesting, so I resisted my urge to mash the dial to 105.7 as fast as possible. The premise sounded interesting, but the conversation somehow turned to complete and outright fellatio of Justice Scalia.

    There was something like ten minutes of how confident, smart, interesting, capable, and well hung the Justice was. How much respect he deserved, how his “immigrant heritage” helped him take America as his own, yadda yadda fucking yadda.

    Upon vomiting, I turned off the radio.

    1. “the conversation somehow turned to complete and outright fellatio of Justice Scalia”

      Wow, you must be getting a broadcast from an alternate-Universe NPR.

      1. It was the most surreal and bile-rising thing I’ve ever encountered on NPR.

        And this coming from someone who has listened to more than one broadcast where a black hostess has explained that every single evil in the entire world everywhere everyday is attributd to white men.

        Apparently, to NPR, blacks are just as incapable of moral responsibility as women. And Justice Scalia rocks!

    2. I put a satellite radio in my truck recently. Now I mostly listen to country and hip hop.

      1. I got a new work car with SiriusXM preinstalled. I’m surprised how much I like it.

        1. Russian PM can have his pick of NPR and NPR like stations. Even two different Catholic channels for Eddie.

          1. Okay, look. . .okay. . .shut up.

            I like to listen to NPR and conservative talk radio, for no other reason than to hear the talking points of the day shouted or whispered at me by bigots, racists, and idiots.

            It helps me keep my finger on the pulse.

            It’s also an awful lot like reading Tonys screes here at HnR, or listening to my best friend burble politics. It makes me feel at home.

            1. It’s ok. I listen to NPR too, although after some particularly derptastic story, I wonder why there isn’t a boot sized hole in the dash yet.

            2. I put XM in my car 2005 and never looked back. I can probably count the number of hours I’ve listed to anything on terrestrial radio, other than WBAL in Bal’mer, on one hand.

              I don’t miss FM radio at all.

              1. RIP Ron Smith

            3. I listen to WFMU, where the music is so hot that you could get scalded if you didn’t wear protective clothing.

              Where’s my $2?

        2. Nice right?

          1. I’m probably going to pay for it when the free trial expires in a year. I barely listen to regular radio now and even though it cuts out a lot (tall buildings or hillsides), it’s better than streaming off the smartphone.

            Highly recommend for anyone who spends long hours behind the wheel.

            1. Concur. I really like it too.

              Same deal. Never considered paying until I had it for a while (free trial) and then didn’t. I like the radio because I like the randomness of it. I like being surprised by the next song. And I don’t like commercials, so…perfect.

  17. The most in your face feminist prof I’ve had put it this way: if consent in making a contract to buy a lawnmower can be negated by a showing of impairment, then consent for something more important, like sex, should have similar rules applied.

    I told her I saw her point and then asked her if the parole evidence rule could be overcome by a pinky promise.

    1. This is why I go through life drunk. If I like the results of my contract, I keep it. If I dont, i weasel out. It’s a license to do whatever I want.

      1. What separates man from the animal kingdom is his ability to weasel out of situations. Of course the exception is the weasel.

      2. Not that long ago going through life drunk was respectable, responsible and even admirable.

    2. I’m not sure what it would take to revoke a lawnmower agreement. If you get drunk and sell a lawnmower for $5 will the courts return it to you? If you get drunk and buy a lawnmower for $5000 will you get your money back?

      Do they take the lawnmower value into account? And how do you negate sex?

      1. And how do you negate sex?

        Do it backwards.

    3. What about consent to a search by police?

      How will the results of field sobriety tests even be admissible, if mere intoxication voids consent?

    4. Look, objective is just like subjective.

    5. Ask her if the contract could still be rescinded once you’d mowed the lawn with it a few times.

    6. I don’t think being drunk counts as impairment because you chose to get drunk. Being drunk does not excuse murder, for example. Yet.

    1. The difference between his absurd suggestion and the tyranny being peddled on campuses is that he’s parodying them but they’re dead serious.

  18. So the lesson for men is NEVER pursue a woman in the USA, UK, etc.

    Easy.

    1. I have good news Gman. Most women aren’t brain dead progressives. Just be careful where you stick it.

    2. The real lesson is never have sex with a progressive.

      Thankfully, there are thousands of other benefits to such a policy.

  19. Do you think the imminent technological solution to this nonsense will be the advent of foxy fembots (compare Austin Powers w/ Blade Runner, or Jude Law in AI versus Data hammering Lt. Yar) or will it be some kind of direct neural-link porn (see Brainstorm and, idk, maybe Judge Dread)?? Both? Regardless, we’re, what, 6-7 years away? Watching myopic, anti-sex feminists Kamikaze nose-dive into “careful what you wish for” territory, I’d guess 3/4 of the geniuses in Cal-Tech’s freshman class are busy dreaming up prototypes.

    1. Lieutenant Yar. That woman must have been the single most well-fucked person in Star Trek.

      The only other person I can think of who might have had a hard time walking the next day would be Dax, once she got with Worf.

      Oh, and Quark, that one time he did that klingon woman.

    2. I think the phase will pass by in a few years. The lawsuits will mount up and the expense of running these campus kangaroo courts will prove prohibitive. Without the end-run around due process their affirmative consent policy is just blather.

      I hope, anyway. California may just be fucked.

      1. May???

    3. and, idk, maybe Judge Dread

      Demolition Man? Or was that in Dread too, haven’t seen it.

      1. Which was the sci-fi dystopia with the corrupt government? The one in which Stallone grunts and shoots everyone? Maybe it was Death Race 2000?

      2. That’s right, I recall that he and Sandra Bullock have “sex” by going into separate rooms and connecting through some VR thing.

        1. You mean the way Woody Allen and Diane Keaton by stepping into the Orgasmatron in Sleeper?

          1. the way Woody Allen and Diane Keaton *did* by stepping into the Orgasmatron

            1. No, they went in there together. That is rape. Frankly, anything with Woody Allen is “deeply troubling” and deserves a hashtag + twitter outrage.

    4. I don’t think the solutions will be so technological. If prostitution ends up somewhat legalized (or at least somewhat ignored) I think that’ll end up picking up the slack.

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    1. This guy needs to have some drunk sex instead of publishing a commercial as a comment.

  21. No booze with sex?! How are married guys gonna get any?

  22. Rape is the only crime the proggie leadership cares about.

    If the issue was murder and robbery, their sympathies lie with the murderer, arguing that “society” and “white privilege” made him commit robbery and murder.

    1. its a bird … its a plane … its Straw Man!

  23. Don’t worry, the people who support this aren’t anyone you would want to fuck.

  24. can prove that your sex wasn’t malevolent

    It’s cute that you think the extremists only want to criminalize malevolent drunk sex.

  25. What happens when both parties are drunk, is it mutual rape?

    1. Only the bepenised are capable of rape, so no.

      1. What about two gay men? Just the top?

        1. What about two drunk lesbians?

          1. They’re women though so they’re already being raped by the patriarchy. Reverse rape doesn’t exist.

  26. sex isn’t always 100 percent consensual. Especially after booze. Sometimes it’s instinctual, thoughtless, animalistic

    That is an excellent insight.

  27. The British birth rate is plummeting, at least amongst the white ethnically English. If they are now going to be forced to actually be sober when they have sex I fear for the end of Britishism as we know it.

    Let’s face it, what self-respecting British woman is going to have sex with any British guy, (other than maybe Hugh Grant), if she’s sober? As for attempting to seduce a British woman when you’re both sober!! Who has the time for that?

    1. British chicks: will go for the Jason Statham types.

      British dudes: will never, ever stop drinking.

    2. what self-respecting British woman is going to have sex with any British guy, (other than maybe Hugh Grant), if she’s sober?

      I have four words for you:

      Clive Owen

      Daniel Craig

      I’d include Michael Fassbender, but I think he’s Irish.

      1. Cumberbatch doesn’t make the cut?

      2. You forgot rugby players in general, and Ben Cohen in particular.

  28. All you need is a simple four page waiver and consent form to protect yourself in this situation.

    1. A state (or university) issued spermit

  29. Is anyone actually prepared to defend this quote on its own merits, that is, responding to actual arguments which O’Neill makes.

    Or is it a matter of “Eddie criticized this passage, so I *won’t* criticize it”?

    “one of the great hoots of human life: stupid sex, where you don’t know or care what is going on, where the condom is, or even if she’s on the Pill? That moment of madness, that instant when feeling takes over and your brain has a night off, that time when you can’t string a sentence together but somehow you can still have sex? seriously, students, you should try this.”

    1. Well, I never went quite that far because a) I didn’t want weeping pustules all over my tool, and b) I didn’t want to father an unwanted child.

      So, I think most people would find what he is describing fun in theory, if you couldn’t get herpes or knock somebody up (or get knocked up yourself). Any actual adult who makes a choice to act like that is being intentionally stupid and taking a risk- which, in these days of HIV, no one should really take.

      But I think he’s drawing attention to the extreme opposite end of the spectrum of what is basically contractually consented sexual intercourse, an activity that sounds about as passionate and enjoyable as watching Mitch McConnell eat oysters.

      1. …are they blue points?

    2. I don’t see anything to construe that the woman in question is a stranger to him, just that, for the moments described, he elided the parochial preoccupations of life.

      1. Or are we differing on the definition of libertinism? By my reckoning, it’s indifference toward the activities surrounding sex: with whom and how it comes about. But having a few reckless moments during an act bookended by conventional, prosaic attitudes?a drunken romp with the girlfriend, for example?isn’t libertinism.

    3. I’ll defend it.

      Taking risks, even stupid irresponsible ones, is a rush and part of what makes life worth living. Some of my fondest memories are of the times I was being stupid.

      You must, however, take responsibility for your actions after the fact.

      So fuck off, you pathetic stick in the mud, bible banger. People like you make me hope, that there is a moment, just prior to the lights going out, that you realize there is no life eternal and that you’ve wasted your entire lives waiting for it. That would be karma.

      1. Let me take a wild guess – you don’t like me, do you?

        1. He’s flirting, you silly goose.

          1. [ominous horror-movie music]

            Ooooooooooooooooo …Franciiiiiiiiiscooooooo …the SoCons are coming to get you…they’re after your diiiiillllldoes!

        2. To be honest, I find you repugnant.

          1. I never would have guessed!

            1. We know you’re in there, Francisco…hand over all the dildoes and nobody gets hurt!

  30. Add this as more or less reason 854,000 as to why I’m glad not to be 20 years younger right now. I was at University back when you were allowed to have actual fun.

    Come to think, back in those days I was absolutely the more drunk of two drunk parties more or less every single time. Meaning I was a rape victim many, many, many times over at the hands of many predatory young women. A lot of whom (not all, to be fair, but a lot) were quite fit!

    And I loved every fucking minute of it!

    1. Your state of insobriety is of no importance. If she was drunk, you’re fucked.

      1. You were really drunk last night. You had sex with some other guy right here in my bed.

  31. I was told in Edinburgh that “shit-faced” originated there in the 18th/19th century when people on the upper floors of apartment buildings tossed the contents of their bedpans out the window and yelled “gardeloo” (garde de l’eau). Those sufficiently drunk would look up in response.

    1. Good times.

    2. More likely it originated when horses were the main mode of transportation. Those who were shitfaced were the ones who were so drunk they’d stumble out onto the street and fall face down into a pile of road apples.

  32. My semi-serious advice on the matter:

    Drunk sex = better when you’re in a relationship with them
    Sober sex = better for one night stands

    1. Where does prison sex rank after having imbibed dandelion wine made in a prison toilet?

      Incidentally, if Bruce Jenner goes to prison for the fatal car crash does he go to a men’s prison, woman’s prison, his/her choice, or other?

      1. I wouldn’t know from experience, but it’s probably better with toilet wine so you can sleep through the shame.

  33. OT:

    Amusing, even potentially useful, web archive site:
    http://archive.org/web/web.php

    reason.com back in 1998 when it was called “Reason Online”
    http://web.archive.org/web/199…..eason.com/

  34. I only do it thusly:

    1) Scan of IDs, proving that age of consent has been attained by both/all parties.
    2) Written record that sex was constented to under free will and that no money or other marketable good have been exchanged.
    3) Record of protections used. Statements as to the presence/absence of STDs.
    4) Countersigned by independent witness.
    5) Fax the whole to attorney before you start.
    6) ???
    7) 5 minutes only!

    It’s just like the porn industry. And porn fuels rape.

    1. I am reminded of the Steve Gutenberg sketch in Amazon Women on the Moon

    2. 2) Written record that sex was constented to under free will and that no money or other marketable good have been exchanged.

      Where’s the form showing that they signed that form voluntarily?

      4) Countersigned by independent witness.

      Did they sign it voluntarily? Or were they just parties to the rape?

    3. You romantic devil you

  35. There’s a huge difference between 2 (or more) inebriated people getting it on and someone who’s not wasted purposely taking advantage of someone who is. I’m all for the former but I think somehow the law needs to protect the person who’s been taken advantage of in the 2nd scenario.

    1. It’s a sleazy move to take advantage of a drunk person, for sure, but I don’t think a law can specifically protect those people without making it easy to claim any regretful decisions as rape. Plus, I don’t think willfully drinking away your judgement and others taking advantage of that is on par with someone, say, drugging you then raping you.

    2. Legal implication – to avoid prosecution, always make sure you’re more drunk than your partner.

    3. The problems arise the morning after when one person fuzzy remembers the night before with embarrassment. “I slept with that” she thinks “how can I face my…friends, boyfriend, family, etc.” And so she cries rape. Who is to say any different? I’ve seen it happen.

  36. Legs in the air!

  37. All my drunk sex is with my spouse. It’s pretty cool. As far as I remember. 😉

    That said, I have had long past encounters that were alcohol influenced that would not have occurred otherwise. I blamed only myself the next day. I have also been rescued (while on a business trip to Orlando) by a business colleague when the bartender pointed out to him that a shady 3rd party had slipped a rufie into my drink. Freakiest feeling in my life. Complete memory gap. Thanks, Mac, my protector.

    1. So you were hanging out with/accepting drinks from a shady third party ?

  38. No, but I was young and naive enough to turn away from my drink on the bar, or even leave it and go to the restroom. I’ve never done that again, and have advised other young women the same.

  39. Certainly this well-meaning (one assumes) attack on drunk sex is stupid, offensive, etc. But here’s the solution: When going out drinking, have a DF, or Designated Fucker.
    As with the Designated Driver, when the young woman has had two or four or however many drinks, and is thus presumed by the state to be incapable of rational consent, the Designated Fucker (or Fuckee if you wish) takes over and things proceed apace.

  40. “extreme” feminists(feminism is good) never have a good answer when you ask them why the drunk woman is not guilty of taking advantage of the drunk guy. Erections are usually not conscious actions and so the argument of the guy penetrating the woman is not good enough to tab him as the aggressor and the woman as the victim. And while I usually tend to find cases of male getting raped by women as kind of amusing(yeah, I am not perfect), it is not going to stop me from using that as a counter argument.

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  43. Erections are usually not conscious actions and so the argument of the guy penetrating the woman is not good

    kizi
    friv

  44. Alan Dershowitz, who I agree with a disturbing amount lately, recently said (this may not be verbatim, but it’s close enough) that “feminists believe that rape is such a heinous crime that not even innocence should be a defense.”

  45. Without booze, how can I be that big mistake some hot young chick made last night? That would pretty much end me getting laid with hot young chicks. No, booze and fucking belong together like Laurel and hardy.

  46. Of course, this is a two-edged sword. The immediate defense would likely be that the “suspect” was also under the influence of drug or drink and, therefore, was just as incapable of determining the sobriety level or mindset of the “victim” as the “victim” was to provide affirmative consent to sex and, on that basis, should not be prosecuted for rape or any other criminal offense.

    The irony here, at least in the United States, is that one can be too intoxicated to make a rational, consensual decision to engage in sex but, one cannot be too intoxicated to be held accountable for criminal actions such as rape/sexual assault. For instance, one accused of say, armed robbery, cannot simply claim that he/she was under the influence of drugs or alcohol and that is why he/she committed the crime, i.e. if he/she was in his/her “right mind”, they would not have committed the crime. Any self-respecting attorney will advise his/her client that that is not an acceptable excuse, assuming that it would even be allowed to be argued in court and, even if it was, the likelihood of a jury acquitting a suspect of a crime of that magnitude based on his/her level of intoxication is slim to none. It may EXPLAIN one’s behavior but, it will not EXCUSE one’s behavior.

  47. I’m starting to piece this together.. “No means no” has a portion the media’s been missing. It’s directed towards immigrants, particularly Muslim, who don’t speak English and think American kafir women are normally sluts because they watch too much porn.

  48. I’ll admit, I went ahead and stopped reading at “complimenting a lady on her looks,” in the second paragraph. Anybody who thinks “hey baby! DAMN you’re looking fine today!” (how did I know the author considers street harassment to be ‘compliments’ here? Call it a lucky guess) is a compliment is not somebody worth reading on just about any topic, but especially not in an article that was already clearly speeding down the road to defending rape.

    Then I read the comments, hoping for some sanity. Holy hell. Needless to say, I went ahead and added this website(which, thankfully, I had never heard of until about 5 minutes ago) to ReturnofKings as websites that I will never, ever visit again under any circumstances. You idiots are everything that’s wrong with men, and everything that’s wrong with society today. Please, kill yourselves, every last one of you. Or, at the very least, don’t breed and stay the hell away from any children(especially boys) in your life. We need to get the Neanderthal caveman mentality out of the gene pool.

  49. Something that bothers me – If two people get drunk and have sex, neither one had the capacity to consent. So, who is the rapist? The man? Why, because he IS a man? Apparently. SO, basically, what we are saying is that A woman cannot be held accountable for the decisions that she makes while drunk, though her male companion can and will be held accountable. This is means that society considers the woman somehow LESS THAN the male. She has the weaker mind and the weaker body and cannot assume responsibility for herself. Society must protect her from the consequences of her baser instincts….. This movement, advocated by feminists is the very essence of misogyny. And they just won’t see it.

    1. They have redefined sex as something a man does to a woman, not something a woman participates in. It is about consent from the woman to let the man do sex to her. The woman is the passive participant in the sexual encounter.

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  51. Too bad libertarians have allied with the radical left. Lie down with dogs and get fleas.

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  55. Seriously, consent isn’t that hard. jfc

  56. Something that bothers me – If two people get drunk and have sex, neither one had the capacity to consent. So, who is the rapist? The man? Why, because he IS a man? Apparently. SO, basically, what we are saying is that A woman cannot be held accountable for the decisions that she makes while drunk, though her male companion can and will be held accountable. This is means that society considers the woman somehow LESS THAN the male. She has the weaker mind and the weaker body and cannot assume responsibility for herself. Society must protect her from the consequences of her baser instincts….. This movement, advocated by feminists is the very essence of misogyny. And they just won’t see it.
    ??? ?????? ??????
    ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ????

  57. Something that bothers me – If two people get drunk and have sex, neither one had the capacity to consent. So, who is the rapist? The man? Why, because he IS a man? Apparently. SO, basically, what we are saying is that A woman cannot be held accountable for the decisions that she makes while drunk, though her male companion can and will be held accountable. This is means that society considers the woman somehow LESS THAN the male. She has the weaker mind and the weaker body and cannot assume responsibility for herself. Society must protect her from the consequences of her baser instincts….. This movement, advocated by feminists is the very essence of misogyny. And they just won’t see it.
    ???? ???? ?????? ???????

  58. consent.criminal intent and which can cover everything from rape as it was once understood to drunk sex, drugged-up sex, or regretted sex. We’ve gone from punishing those who rape to casting a vast blanket of suspicion over anyone who has sex. But the fact is?and please don’t hate me?sex isn’t always 100 percent consensual. Especially after booze. Sometimes it’s instinctual, thoughtless, animalistic. Sometimes it just happens. It’s sex without consent?that is, without explicit, clearly stated, sober consent?but it ain’t rape. It’s sex.
    ???? ??? ???? ???????

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  59. Here is more of why sometimes I find Reason to be inexcusably ignorant and offensive. Now it is justifying, celebrating, defending rape? Really? Tell you what, at least my “frigid Christian group” teaches that people ought to have at least enough self respect not to poison their bodies with toxic chemicals and then impair the very “reason” (see what I did there) they have been given to make potentially life-destroying decisions that they will almost certainly regret down the line. Can you not find any better columnists than horny college frat boys or the members of the Duke lacrosse team?

    Another embarrassment for the flagship publication of “libertarianism”. You can tell this magazine’s readership is primarily composed of dumb millennial males.

  60. ???? ???? ?????? ???
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    The cultivation of the new crime of “sex without consent” completes the state’s intervention into private life. It effectively makes the authorities into the arbiters of sex itself, the judges of when sex is okay and when it isn’t, of whether a particular drunken romp is acceptable or rape. Don’t drink and fuck, or the state will fuck you?with or without your consent.

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  67. Here is more of why sometimes I find Reason to be inexcusably ignorant and offensive. Now it is justifying, celebrating, defending rape? Really? Tell you what, at least my “frigid Christian group” teaches that people ought to have at least enough self respect not to poison their bodies with toxic chemicals and then impair the very “reason” (see what I did there) they have been given to make potentially life-destroying decisions that they will almost certainly regret down the line. Can you not find any better columnists than horny college frat boys or the members of the Duke lacrosse team?

    Another embarrassment for the flagship publication of “libertarianism”. You can tell this magazine’s readership is primarily composed of dumb millennial males.
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